Chase, quit interupting your guests. We want to hear what they have to say. Also, please stop trying to finish their sentences. Its getting bad. Just constructive criticism. Not hate. Love your show.
I was a Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, KTM dealer in 1997, I along with a lot of people in the industry at the time thought the aluminum frame was nothing more than marketing and had the added benefit of being less cost to manufacture. Still to this day I believe that last generation Chromoly steel from the 4 Japanese is better than any current aluminum frame.
whats your take on the 02-07 CR chassis a lot of guys say that those bike have the best chassis even to this day. Some even state that they were better than the 96 era CR chassis too.
@@jacoblatour6192my opinion only; here’s what I personally experience: I own a 1996 CR250 (heavily modified) and also a 2002 CR250 bone stock except suspension done by PR2 racing suspension. Hands down the 2002 handles like a dream! But the 1996 motor performs like none other! If I could put the 1996 CR250 motor into the 2002 CR250 frame…🫵dreamland perfect bike between the two👌
@@jacoblatour6192 for me is always comes down to lap times, consistency and forgiveness. I have never seen anyone short of a top level pro that is not better on a steel frame also something the cool kids hate to hear, most people are faster on a 250 than an 450.
aluminum is prone to cracking if it repeatedly flexed I believe, steel has better memory, once it flexes it can go back to where it was, if it goes too far and can still be brought back to where it was. I feel like its a dangerous thing no doubt if the frame is too flexy
They certainly didn’t account for frame stretch back then. Measure axel to axel on your new bike and then measure it again after a full season of riding. The soft aluminum will bend ever so slightly and it will lengthen the measurement, changing the handling characteristics. That’s why they swap frames on top pro bikes after like 5 races.
steel frames do the same thing. older steel frames needed new frames every few races. modern steel frames a lot of the riders have different preferences. I heard the one guy liked brand new and the other guy liked the 6-8hr frame because it breaks in.
From an engineering standpoint point pound for pound steel is stronger than the aluminum, so in order to have an aluminum gram it has to be bigger tubing size wise to compensate. Therefore an aluminum frame will be stiffer than steel because of the shear size difference. Hope this helps.
Jeremy McGrath, I loved watching him race and win, and I love listening to him, always a down to earth nice person, who just happens to have a few championships!
There was something about the Kawasaki steel perimeter frame. The added width made it more box than bike. It was very stable in whoops and sweepers but it lacked the nimble grace of the traditional frame. It was more SX than MX and drifting farther away from the trail bike roots. The other brands were wondering how to get tough without encroaching on the Kawi patent. Somehow the aluminum frames are all perimeter designs but don't trigger a lawsuit. With jumps getting bigger and whoops gnarlier stability won over compliance. I gotta admit that the aluminum frames were eye candy. Space age,shiny,F1,alloy not rusty old steel. There's a reason we never went to mag wheels. They don't give a millimeter. When I went from the 96 to the 02 Honda it was like going from a gazelle to a bull.
I was going to say the same thing, I had a 96 250, 97 125, 97 250 , 98 250, 2002 125, 03 250. I liked the 98 125 the best, it was fun to ride, slow though.
@@ajmalin121sheesh.. a port, reeds and a pipe and it couldn’t catch up w a yz? Thanks for this info because I was considering buying a cr, might as well buy a steelie YZ it seems?
I was a sales manager for a Kawasaki/ Suzuki dealer. In 97 a guy I’d know for years, Honda guy.. brought his brand new 250 in to trade on a Kaw .. i asked why, “man i cant figure it out, one lap im good, next lap im on the ground.. i could not make a deal with him though, he wanted MSPR for the Honda and wanted a brand new kaw at dealer cost.. dude literally wasnt me to pay him…. He’s a good dude just didnt have his thinking right back the haha
Love my XR400s and 650R. I’m not trying to win any contest or jump a mile but I love the over all feel and absorption of shock. I know mine suspension can help if course but I’m also I bigger rider 6’4 235. If I was smaller I’d probably like the aluminum more idk though
My problem with the two stroke and the aluminum frame was the vibration. Seemed to get so much worse when they swapped over. Why I dont ride a YZ today, love that platform but so much vibration.
I had 91 and 98 cr 125 head shake was terrible on the 98 honestly tho it was ok bike bit on ridgid side if i knew what id known now just some softer suspension cause that bike cornered awesome some guys drilled frane added steering stabilizer helped a lot also
Just about got everything to rebuild my 04 YZ250. Really hate to sell it but i just dont have anywhere to ride anymore other than track. Going to get R1 or GSXR1k
I was always so jealous of my buddies who had got the (new at time) aluminum frame CR, i thought it was much lighter but very quickly learned there were some serious negatives to it. The braking bumps sucked on the aluminum frame!
Back in the day, one of the magazines (probably Dirt Rider) pontificated that Honda made the aluminum frame so stiff because they were afraid of the marketing disaster of it breaking. And, that sounds plausible to me - new bike, new frame, breaks in half at A1 - marketing disaster.
The reason the made Alloy frames that way back then was Alloy has a higher failure rate if all things are equal, in general terms Alloy lasts about 5 years under normal conditions, MX is not normal conditions! It has to be oversized to keep weight down! It has to be over engineered to be durable! Tough enough to survive, it was harder then to provide flex in key areas, like steel has inherently depending on its properties, just look at mountain bike development, the same issues happened, but you don't have a massive engine in the middle that has forces static and dynamic impacting on the bike, the suspension also doesn't get hammered the same as it does in moto or SX which transfers into the frame, its still ongoing!
I also bought a new 97 CR 250 , 😢, 2,500 dollars later, into the bike,😊. McGrath, What a great person. I had the pleasure of meeting him in 96 at Budds Creek.👏👍
Cro-Mo steel went up in price drastically. At the same time, aluminum prices came down. That was the core reason for changing to aluminum frames. Frame weights are about the same so aluminum wasn't an advantage. However, suspension guys love the stiff frame since the only movement is in the forks and shock.
Sorry but I don't believe for a second that chromo prices had any thing to do with the move to aluminum. The movement to big alu. twin spar frames and deltabox construction was badass in appearance and a desire for stiffness just as Jeremy said. Then the swingarms were too stiff and were tamed down with taller profiles and narrower cross sections to allow for lateral flex. As a senoir citizen and a tool room machinist following behind the designs of these over zealous young engineers is exhausting in their quest for complexity and change.
Al is much easier to machine than steel. The headstock and swingarm bearing recess need a lot of toolwork. This is a cost issue in mass production. Al is more difficult to weld than steel, but this is less of a problem as it can be setup with jigs. Also, al casting is more viable. Steel can be made into castings, but temp is much higher. Also, the casting must be refinished/polished. Again, easier with al.
I bought a 97 Cr250 it had a great engine for me, looked futuristic at the time and my god handled like a piece of crap. I also remember going from my 2004 to 2005 YZ250 the aluminium frame seemed better in some situations but worse in others but it was still a great bike over all. I’m now on a 2023 Ktm 350 and comparing that frame to my mates 2022 those feelings of the ‘frames too stiff are back’ still the best bike I’ve ever owned. Favourite bikes of all time 2006 Crf 450, 93 Cr250 and the current Ktm.
Just an insight to the alum - steel thing. Aluminum has no fatigue limit so to be on the safe side, designs have to start out more ridged. Suspension on the other hand was evolving from the early long travel days where heavy compression damping was favored over high spring rates - again in the interest of safety. The 96 CR was at the inflection point of these two design criteria.
Engineers can't leave well enough alone. They want to engineer. Look at Ducati in MotoGP. They had a winning bike with a steel frame until a new group came in and they engineered a new carbon/whatever frame that took Ducati out of the hunt for a decade. Yamaha was probably the first to figure out how to make alu frames work by using a combination of castings (steering head & swingers pivot), extrusions (main beams/swingarm) and forgings. Later they developed a method for casting thin-walled alu frames.
Their steel frame was horrible. Only Casey Stoner could ride it. He won despite it, not because of it. Carbon technology wasn't quite there yet and when they finally went to aluminium they started from scratch and took years to figure it out. It wasn't just the material choice though. Their engine layout and weight distribution were miles off too. When Gigi arrived from aprilia he scrapped the whole thing and started fresh.
I suppose thy we’re trying to go to aluminum to make them lighter. The problem with most aluminum is that you can’t flex it as much as steel normally because you’ll end up cracking the frame somewhere. They probably made it so stiff to handle the stresses made by riders like Jeremy over triples and blitzing the whoops added some material for safety ( because they’re Honda ) and made the stiffness a marketing point to let people know that’s what it is. I think there was also a craze for that in cars and trucks at the time so it kind of fit the turbo craze type theme. I think most bikes were average steel but KTM has been chrome molybdenum steel like lightweight race car parts but very strong for quite a while. It’s a way to shed pounds but keep the flexibility of steel, so it’s weird they are trying to make the bike stiffer, Honda made no secret about adding flexing the right areas back into the CR frames…
The mfg didn't understand how much of a suspension and compliance component the frame is. The same thing happened in road racing when Ducati came out with the carbon MotoGP bike, and the only one who could ride it was Stoner.
Vibration…..lol. See my Arctic Cat M1000 snowmobile 1000cc twin two stroke. 170hp. Stock. That motor just vibrating hard in that frame. Check all bolts every drive.
They went to aluminum for weight savings. That's kind of a "duh". They were stiff for two reasons. One, the aluminum was pure aluminum, not an alloy and two, they didn't understand how to make the frame more flexible but still keeping the strength.
aluminum appeared to MX due to marketing stuff, looks better, more modern, borrowing aesthetics from MOTOGP and it started from Honda to distinguish from competition... but failed as was not proven for MX...
Pure aluminium is softer than fresh dog shit. Bike frames are usually a 7xxx alloy like 7005 or 7020 which is mostly alloyed with magnesium and zinc with traces of other elements. Those alloys are exceptionally strong. It's about a third of the weight of steel BUT you end up using three times more metal so the weight doesn't change much. Bigger tube diameter is where the stiffness comes from. Modern Japanese bikes are generally slightly heavier than KTMs. An advantage of aluminium is that you can tweak the tube profiles and forgings to be very rigid in one plane but very flexible in the perpendicular plane. So you can have massive longitudinal stiffness with lots of lateral flex. More useful for MotoGP than Motocross but the Japanese have figured out how to make it work. Today's aluminium frames are great. The first Honda aluminium frames were terrible.
@@angelracing the original 97 Honda was way too stiff. They have gradually made them flex in all the right places while remaining rigid where it counts. Some aluminium frames are the best in the class. You can't beat a YZ125 chassis. I reckon the Lawrence brothers and Tim Gajser are pretty happy with their CRFs too
ua-cam.com/video/kpLlxhSnsnU/v-deo.html really? It was well known. The street bikes were all moving aluminum frame, and it was just the industry was moving to aluminum frames. As far as rigidity, I think people have a TON of hindsight today. In the 80s and 90s, I don't think we realized something could be too rigid, because we hadn't had materials to make that mistake easily yet.
agreed. aluminum just seemed modern and many of us were enamored by it (just like when Yam went alloy in 05). but too, at that point the industry was just realizing that most past frames were too flexi, which is why the 94 CR was made so rigid. i raced one and the suspension was horrible. now i realize the frame was half the issue. MC hated that frame too. 97 was just going way beyond what anyone realized should be allowed. it was a learning curve for the industry.
I know it's a long time ago now, but I have such a hard time when people get history wrong. The 1997 CR125 was steel. '98 was the first aluminum CR125.
The 1st gen aluminum frames were excessively stiff because there was a fear that aluminum wouldn't be durable enough in MX. Sure, marketing felt that they needed something to help them sell more bikes. Finally, aluminum frames are cheaper to make, thanks to complex castings, one piece can take the place of 4 or 5 welded steel components.
I had a buddy that was a team Yamaha mechanic for supercross. He said they would tweek things so far the riders would want stock bike from the dealership, and don't touch it!
Many people fail to realize that they build bikes to sell them, not necessarily to race them. Aluminum is a catchphrase used to market. Using the term NEW is a necessity. Using new materials in an all new frame, is used to market these items for sale. Nobody wants to buy last years bike when the new model is fancier.
I'm an engineer aluminum doesn't have a fatigue limit and fatigue data is super expensive companies that pay for it keep it to themselves. so how do you minimise fatigue? just design it very stiff, less movement less fatigue. honda can put this bike out into the world without fear of them snapping in half and getting sued into the dirt in a few years. ktm was broke during this whole period couldn't start when everyone else did. now they dont have those years of accumulated fatigue data. not even form streetbikes or a automotive side. they simply cannot make an aluminum frame that wouldn't be incredebly far behind. but they seem to do fine just pushing steel as far as it can go.
I’d guess the aluminum frames were stiff because they were probably overbuilt. Last thing they want is a brand new (probably controversial) aluminum frame to break. It would be a PR disaster.
KTM/Husqy/GasGas and Beta are steel.... and are lighter than the alluminum frame bikes. Steel frames can be lighter because they only use a fraction of the material. Alluminum is so soft, the alluminum frame bikes use 4-5x more material than steel frames.
they were going on about how terrible aluminium bikes are, then he says he got one of the last cr125's before they went aluminium, and they say its the worst bike.. a tad ironic. im guessing it was the engine, not the frame that was bad on those?
only Jase has the King of SX on his show and treats him like its his punk brother... interrupting every 40 seconds. we love ya Jase and it's your show, but...
Watched the whole thing and i still don't know if he likes aluminum or steel better? Great vid like a 8 year old mid sentence anddddd its gone>>>>>>>>>>>>
Gyspy why do you not react to every weekend to the supercross n what’s going on n n make videos about it it’s boring you juss interviewing people we barley know I mean people know McGrath but yk what I’m saying
You see this all the time in the sport. Anderson seems to be not as fast this season on the new bike. I heard gas gas made changes that Barcia didn't like and he's struggling to get top 10s. Webb couldn't stand the KTM the year after he won his last title
Ithink he won the races cause most riders were just picking up a easy check and didnt want to win you cant tell me a seasoned pro rider never wins a main but he was putting in his best effort no way and yes i did have a 97 CR250
I cant believe ronnie mac uses that worst frame ever to get as close to the limit of crashing as possible...not surprised he crashed out at least once...its absolutely horrendous and i sold it immediately aafter riding it many moons ago!!
I DONT KNOW WHY STIFF ISNT GOOD I THINK YOUR ALL HEAD CASES THE 450S ARE LIGHT YEARS STIFFER THAN A 96 CR250 AND DONT EVEN TRY TO TELL ME THEY ARENT THE 2024 BIKES ARE WAY STIFFER
McGrath would have squeeked out the championship in 97 if hed gave it a chance. I raced both the 92-94 frame and to the 97-99 frames. Not that much difference i felt. Jeremy rode the same 93 frame for 3-4 years and that was his secret weopon never having to adjust to a "new" bike like all his competition. Feeling comfortable on your bike Rd. 1 would be enourmous advantage. Lusk didnt crash due to the aluminum frame Jeremy, he crashed becuz he was Lusk. A go for broke, do or die, checkers or wreckers type of rider. Maybe hondas stiff a/f and always impossible to tune ft forks, but not the frame at all. Not hating on you and always a great guy. Never got your dam autograph even once due to those lines you always had wrapped around the trailer and pits 7 times😂 from your trillion and ten superfans... Kind enuff to pose with my now long gone but not forgotten ex girlfriend as she loved you so... Still got that dam picture somewhere😅 Wont dispute who the King of SX is but i also wont say i loved to watch you win every race so dominatingly as you did like in 96. Made racing boring A/F. Jeremys got the holeshot. Jeremys in the lead. Jeremy has a 7 no 8 second lead. Jeremy takes another win. Back then may as well turn off the race after lap 3. Noones catching ya with your " holeshot, run n hide" lil strategy you and Chip played so well. Bahhhhh im just bitter i guess...😂 at a lot more than ya know.
They over built the aluminum frames because they didn’t know how the aluminum would fatigue and thought it would break because it is a softer material than steel. They made dam sure those frames would not break, and the super ridged aluminum frame was born. The 1st gen cr aluminum frames are the absolute worst aluminum frame, unless you don’t mind having your teeth rattled out of your face. I used to own a 1997 CR250, and I have never been so fatigued after riding a dirt bike, as I was after riding that CR! I really tried my hardest to like that bike, but with far better bikes out there, I wound up selling that thing as fast as I could and bought a CFR450R! Now I’m in love with my CRF450, and I wouldn’t have it any other way!
If Yamaha and Honda had any brains they would ditch alu and go back to chromo...KTM proved a curved and round chromo structure is stronger and lighter overall with 10 fold the ability to cope with cyclic fatigue
I was lucky enough to own two 84 Suzuki RM 250s one the greatest bikes ever made, but my first new bike I bought was a total pile of shit 83 Yamaha YZ 250, they wanted bikes extra light back then so it came with hollow bead rims that bent and aluminum spoke nipples they never stayed seated, it had a light weight aluminum piston that lasted 3 weeks before it cracked, on it's 3rd piston I traded for a brand new 83 XR 500R. nothing new about crap race bikes!
Stop interrupting your guests, Jase. You ask a question and then you answer it yourself. Just stop dude. Sheesh
I know this is my biggest gripe with him he's not the king of Supercross let him talk
Chase, quit interupting your guests. We want to hear what they have to say. Also, please stop trying to finish their sentences. Its getting bad. Just constructive criticism. Not hate. Love your show.
I rarely can make it through a full video.
Adhd
Judo story on the way
I agree
He’s the main player and his guests are the npc’s😂
I was a Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, KTM dealer in 1997, I along with a lot of people in the industry at the time thought the aluminum frame was nothing more than marketing and had the added benefit of being less cost to manufacture. Still to this day I believe that last generation Chromoly steel from the 4 Japanese is better than any current aluminum frame.
whats your take on the 02-07 CR chassis a lot of guys say that those bike have the best chassis even to this day. Some even state that they were better than the 96 era CR chassis too.
@@jacoblatour6192my opinion only; here’s what I personally experience: I own a 1996 CR250 (heavily modified) and also a 2002 CR250 bone stock except suspension done by PR2 racing suspension. Hands down the 2002 handles like a dream! But the 1996 motor performs like none other! If I could put the 1996 CR250 motor into the 2002 CR250 frame…🫵dreamland perfect bike between the two👌
Thank you your reply told me more in 2 seconds than this 8 min ramble. He never said what frame he liked more.
@@russellhelms2835 and Lap times?
@@jacoblatour6192 for me is always comes down to lap times, consistency and forgiveness. I have never seen anyone short of a top level pro that is not better on a steel frame also something the cool kids hate to hear, most people are faster on a 250 than an 450.
When flexing, aluminum fatigues a lot quicker than steel, so they made the early aluminum frames super stiff to minimize flex.
Right answer. 🎯
yes. same with pushbikes. aluminium is lighter and stiffer but steel doesn't break your back.
aluminum is prone to cracking if it repeatedly flexed I believe, steel has better memory, once it flexes it can go back to where it was, if it goes too far and can still be brought back to where it was. I feel like its a dangerous thing no doubt if the frame is too flexy
They certainly didn’t account for frame stretch back then. Measure axel to axel on your new bike and then measure it again after a full season of riding. The soft aluminum will bend ever so slightly and it will lengthen the measurement, changing the handling characteristics. That’s why they swap frames on top pro bikes after like 5 races.
steel frames do the same thing. older steel frames needed new frames every few races. modern steel frames a lot of the riders have different preferences. I heard the one guy liked brand new and the other guy liked the 6-8hr frame because it breaks in.
From an engineering standpoint point pound for pound steel is stronger than the aluminum, so in order to have an aluminum gram it has to be bigger tubing size wise to compensate. Therefore an aluminum frame will be stiffer than steel because of the shear size difference. Hope this helps.
I don't think it is so easy. Because to adopt geometry for required stiffness is not a problem.
Jeremy McGrath, I loved watching him race and win, and I love listening to him, always a down to earth nice person, who just happens to have a few championships!
There was something about the Kawasaki steel perimeter frame.
The added width made it more box than bike.
It was very stable in whoops and sweepers but it lacked the nimble grace of the traditional frame.
It was more SX than MX and drifting farther away from the trail bike roots.
The other brands were wondering how to get tough without encroaching on the Kawi patent.
Somehow the aluminum frames are all perimeter designs but don't trigger a lawsuit.
With jumps getting bigger and whoops gnarlier stability won over compliance.
I gotta admit that the aluminum frames were eye candy.
Space age,shiny,F1,alloy not rusty old steel.
There's a reason we never went to mag wheels. They don't give a millimeter.
When I went from the 96 to the 02 Honda it was like going from a gazelle to a bull.
The 1997 CR125 was the same as the 96. The 125 didn't get an aluminum frame until 1998. That 1997 125 was the same bike Lammy dominated on. 🤪
I was about to say the same. I had a 98 cr125 and it sucked, a lot. The 97 was much better.
I was going to say the same thing, I had a 96 250, 97 125, 97 250 , 98 250, 2002 125, 03 250. I liked the 98 125 the best, it was fun to ride, slow though.
My first big boy bike was a 97 CR 125. With a port, some Delta V force reeds, and a bills pipe- it was almost almost as fast as my dad’s 99 YZ 125 😂
@@ajmalin121sheesh.. a port, reeds and a pipe and it couldn’t catch up w a yz? Thanks for this info because I was considering buying a cr, might as well buy a steelie YZ it seems?
@@okerhrh4139 put a 144 kit on the yz- you won’t be disappointed
My 97 YZ250 is a great bike. I’ll be getting a 25 Husky TX300 this fall 👍
Can't beat KTM group!
@@Davido50 Yup. TBI and electric start
I was a sales manager for a Kawasaki/ Suzuki dealer. In 97 a guy I’d know for years, Honda guy.. brought his brand new 250 in to trade on a Kaw .. i asked why, “man i cant figure it out, one lap im good, next lap im on the ground.. i could not make a deal with him though, he wanted MSPR for the Honda and wanted a brand new kaw at dealer cost.. dude literally wasnt me to pay him…. He’s a good dude just didnt have his thinking right back the haha
I bought a 97 new. Race tech suspension and a couple gold vales later it was fine. It was a holeshot machine.
makes sense for an average rider. but at MC's level it was not going to work.
Last yam steel frame is my favourite ride to this day and my number 1 choice still...
When i rode an aluminum frame bike, i would be sore for days. When i rode a steel frame bike, i didn't get sore , the steel frame had more flex to it
McGrath is the KING 👑
Always. 💯
Love my XR400s and 650R. I’m not trying to win any contest or jump a mile but I love the over all feel and absorption of shock. I know mine suspension can help if course but I’m also I bigger rider 6’4 235. If I was smaller I’d probably like the aluminum more idk though
My problem with the two stroke and the aluminum frame was the vibration. Seemed to get so much worse when they swapped over. Why I dont ride a YZ today, love that platform but so much vibration.
Great insights
I had 91 and 98 cr 125 head shake was terrible on the 98 honestly tho it was ok bike bit on ridgid side if i knew what id known now just some softer suspension cause that bike cornered awesome some guys drilled frane added steering stabilizer helped a lot also
Just about got everything to rebuild my 04 YZ250. Really hate to sell it but i just dont have anywhere to ride anymore other than track. Going to get R1 or GSXR1k
I was always so jealous of my buddies who had got the (new at time) aluminum frame CR, i thought it was much lighter but very quickly learned there were some serious negatives to it. The braking bumps sucked on the aluminum frame!
Aluminum frame are heavier than steel frames, Alloy castings add a lot of weight.
Back in the day, one of the magazines (probably Dirt Rider) pontificated that Honda made the aluminum frame so stiff because they were afraid of the marketing disaster of it breaking. And, that sounds plausible to me - new bike, new frame, breaks in half at A1 - marketing disaster.
The reason the made Alloy frames that way back then was Alloy has a higher failure rate if all things are equal, in general terms Alloy lasts about 5 years under normal conditions, MX is not normal conditions! It has to be oversized to keep weight down! It has to be over engineered to be durable! Tough enough to survive, it was harder then to provide flex in key areas, like steel has inherently depending on its properties, just look at mountain bike development, the same issues happened, but you don't have a massive engine in the middle that has forces static and dynamic impacting on the bike, the suspension also doesn't get hammered the same as it does in moto or SX which transfers into the frame, its still ongoing!
if aluminum stresses so much from bending, i wonder why do airplane wings last long at all?
I also bought a new 97 CR 250 , 😢, 2,500 dollars later, into the bike,😊. McGrath, What a great person. I had the pleasure of meeting him in 96 at Budds Creek.👏👍
Neighbor had an air cooled YZ490 4-speed. INSANE bike!
Honda always had headshake my 1989 125 was so bad it was scary every ride
Cro-Mo steel went up in price drastically. At the same time, aluminum prices came down. That was the core reason for changing to aluminum frames. Frame weights are about the same so aluminum wasn't an advantage. However, suspension guys love the stiff frame since the only movement is in the forks and shock.
Sorry but I don't believe for a second that chromo prices had any thing to do with the move to aluminum. The movement to big alu. twin spar frames and deltabox construction was badass in appearance and a desire for stiffness just as Jeremy said. Then the swingarms were too stiff and were tamed down with taller profiles and narrower cross sections to allow for lateral flex. As a senoir citizen and a tool room machinist following behind the designs of these over zealous young engineers is exhausting in their quest for complexity and change.
+1
@@two2pedal289 Believe what you want. It is easy to verify.
Al is much easier to machine than steel. The headstock and swingarm bearing recess need a lot of toolwork. This is a cost issue in mass production. Al is more difficult to weld than steel, but this is less of a problem as it can be setup with jigs.
Also, al casting is more viable. Steel can be made into castings, but temp is much higher. Also, the casting must be refinished/polished. Again, easier with al.
I bought a 97 Cr250 it had a great engine for me, looked futuristic at the time and my god handled like a piece of crap.
I also remember going from my 2004 to 2005 YZ250 the aluminium frame seemed better in some situations but worse in others but it was still a great bike over all. I’m now on a 2023 Ktm 350 and comparing that frame to my mates 2022 those feelings of the ‘frames too stiff are back’ still the best bike I’ve ever owned.
Favourite bikes of all time 2006 Crf 450, 93 Cr250 and the current Ktm.
Just an insight to the alum - steel thing. Aluminum has no fatigue limit so to be on the safe side, designs have to start out more ridged.
Suspension on the other hand was evolving from the early long travel days where heavy compression damping was favored over high spring rates - again in the interest of safety. The 96 CR was at the inflection point of these two design criteria.
As an aerospace nerd, aluminum absolutely has a fatigue limit😅
Remember Honda put a 20" front tire on the bike to try and get some give and flex back into it?
The 1987 YZM 500 had a aluminium frame that wasn't overly stiff.
Right
Engineers can't leave well enough alone. They want to engineer. Look at Ducati in MotoGP. They had a winning bike with a steel frame until a new group came in and they engineered a new carbon/whatever frame that took Ducati out of the hunt for a decade. Yamaha was probably the first to figure out how to make alu frames work by using a combination of castings (steering head & swingers pivot), extrusions (main beams/swingarm) and forgings. Later they developed a method for casting thin-walled alu frames.
you forget to mention they also had Casey stoner haha
Their steel frame was horrible. Only Casey Stoner could ride it. He won despite it, not because of it. Carbon technology wasn't quite there yet and when they finally went to aluminium they started from scratch and took years to figure it out. It wasn't just the material choice though. Their engine layout and weight distribution were miles off too. When Gigi arrived from aprilia he scrapped the whole thing and started fresh.
MC is so cool he just listens to gypsy s stories
My First MX Bike was 01 CR 250. I remember crashing alot
McGrath was a honest and respectable guy that’s why people always liked him plus he could ride like hell too.
Is the 2023 250 as good as the 450?
I suppose thy we’re trying to go to aluminum to make them lighter. The problem with most aluminum is that you can’t flex it as much as steel normally because you’ll end up cracking the frame somewhere. They probably made it so stiff to handle the stresses made by riders like Jeremy over triples and blitzing the whoops added some material for safety ( because they’re Honda ) and made the stiffness a marketing point to let people know that’s what it is. I think there was also a craze for that in cars and trucks at the time so it kind of fit the turbo craze type theme. I think most bikes were average steel but KTM has been chrome molybdenum steel like lightweight race car parts but very strong for quite a while. It’s a way to shed pounds but keep the flexibility of steel, so it’s weird they are trying to make the bike stiffer, Honda made no secret about adding flexing the right areas back into the CR frames…
The mfg didn't understand how much of a suspension and compliance component the frame is. The same thing happened in road racing when Ducati came out with the carbon MotoGP bike, and the only one who could ride it was Stoner.
Vibration…..lol. See my Arctic Cat M1000 snowmobile 1000cc twin two stroke. 170hp. Stock. That motor just vibrating hard in that frame. Check all bolts every drive.
They went to aluminum for weight savings. That's kind of a "duh". They were stiff for two reasons. One, the aluminum was pure aluminum, not an alloy and two, they didn't understand how to make the frame more flexible but still keeping the strength.
aluminum appeared to MX due to marketing stuff, looks better, more modern, borrowing aesthetics from MOTOGP and it started from Honda to distinguish from competition... but failed as was not proven for MX...
Pure aluminium is softer than fresh dog shit. Bike frames are usually a 7xxx alloy like 7005 or 7020 which is mostly alloyed with magnesium and zinc with traces of other elements. Those alloys are exceptionally strong. It's about a third of the weight of steel BUT you end up using three times more metal so the weight doesn't change much. Bigger tube diameter is where the stiffness comes from. Modern Japanese bikes are generally slightly heavier than KTMs. An advantage of aluminium is that you can tweak the tube profiles and forgings to be very rigid in one plane but very flexible in the perpendicular plane. So you can have massive longitudinal stiffness with lots of lateral flex. More useful for MotoGP than Motocross but the Japanese have figured out how to make it work. Today's aluminium frames are great. The first Honda aluminium frames were terrible.
@@angelracing the original 97 Honda was way too stiff. They have gradually made them flex in all the right places while remaining rigid where it counts. Some aluminium frames are the best in the class. You can't beat a YZ125 chassis. I reckon the Lawrence brothers and Tim Gajser are pretty happy with their CRFs too
I remember those 125s from the 90s like a twisted shopping cart every time you click it into high gear
At least they ran clean 125s from the 80s wouldn’t even do that
ua-cam.com/video/kpLlxhSnsnU/v-deo.html really? It was well known. The street bikes were all moving aluminum frame, and it was just the industry was moving to aluminum frames. As far as rigidity, I think people have a TON of hindsight today. In the 80s and 90s, I don't think we realized something could be too rigid, because we hadn't had materials to make that mistake easily yet.
agreed. aluminum just seemed modern and many of us were enamored by it (just like when Yam went alloy in 05). but too, at that point the industry was just realizing that most past frames were too flexi, which is why the 94 CR was made so rigid. i raced one and the suspension was horrible. now i realize the frame was half the issue. MC hated that frame too. 97 was just going way beyond what anyone realized should be allowed. it was a learning curve for the industry.
Yamaha had Alloy framed YZM500 motorcross bikes in 1988 that weren't over engineered.
I know it's a long time ago now, but I have such a hard time when people get history wrong. The 1997 CR125 was steel. '98 was the first aluminum CR125.
The cr125 1997 had a steel frame
Steel has a nice flex and feel.
Just sold my 2023 kx 450 great bike ! Rode a 2020 ktm sx 250 and i like the kx better.
KTM hard to beat! 💯
The 1st gen aluminum frames were excessively stiff because there was a fear that aluminum wouldn't be durable enough in MX. Sure, marketing felt that they needed something to help them sell more bikes. Finally, aluminum frames are cheaper to make, thanks to complex castings, one piece can take the place of 4 or 5 welded steel components.
If you flex aluminum enough times it will break, unlike steel that has to be flexed much further to then eventually break.
I had a buddy that was a team Yamaha mechanic for supercross. He said they would tweek things so far the riders would want stock bike from the dealership, and don't touch it!
Steel absorbs more vibration
I’d love to hear what Jeremy has to say but you cut him off every 5 seconds. Just some advice let the guest talk man
97 CR125 had a steel frame not Aluminium frame😮
the 97 cr125 was still a steel frame
Yea i think he mistakenly said 97.... maybe he ment 98?
In New Zealand and Australia it was Aluminum.U.S must of been getting sold old stock
Many people fail to realize that they build bikes to sell them, not necessarily to race them. Aluminum is a catchphrase used to market. Using the term NEW is a necessity. Using new materials in an all new frame, is used to market these items for sale. Nobody wants to buy last years bike when the new model is fancier.
When you say stiffer or softer… how much is the frame actually moving…. 1mm, 2 mm, 8mm.?….????
Didn’t the CR125 introduce the aluminum frame in 98?
No. The 250 got the aluminum frame in ‘97 and the 125 got it in ‘98.
I'm an engineer aluminum doesn't have a fatigue limit and fatigue data is super expensive companies that pay for it keep it to themselves. so how do you minimise fatigue? just design it very stiff, less movement less fatigue. honda can put this bike out into the world without fear of them snapping in half and getting sued into the dirt in a few years.
ktm was broke during this whole period couldn't start when everyone else did. now they dont have those years of accumulated fatigue data. not even form streetbikes or a automotive side. they simply cannot make an aluminum frame that wouldn't be incredebly far behind. but they seem to do fine just pushing steel as far as it can go.
My ktms feel much nicer than when you hop on a Yamaha or Honda those bikes feel heaving super stiff were the ktm feels like your in the bike I dunno
The 1997 CR 125 had a steel frame. The CR 125 did not go to an aluminum frame until 1998.
I’d guess the aluminum frames were stiff because they were probably overbuilt. Last thing they want is a brand new (probably controversial) aluminum frame to break. It would be a PR disaster.
I think they were thinking that increased rigidity was removing a variable allowing them to focus on suspension tuning
McGrath should have run the steel framed CR250R as a privateer and dominated. He had enough money to pay a team manager and mechanic.
KTM/Husqy/GasGas and Beta are steel.... and are lighter than the alluminum frame bikes. Steel frames can be lighter because they only use a fraction of the material. Alluminum is so soft, the alluminum frame bikes use 4-5x more material than steel frames.
I think they made em stiff because that is the direction of the roadracing bikes. So they probably figured made similar. But off road is not 😊
They did the transition from frames because of the weight
Rm 250 steel frame 2005 best bike out there. Steel is real.
I personally have not ever felt comfortable on an aluminum frame. Steel frame is the only thing I would buy now (if I could still ride anyway).
Weight reduction looks good for manufacturers.
Carmichael was a bit more Versatile rider, won championships on several brands.
Carmichael didn’t seem to mind the aluminum frames.
they were going on about how terrible aluminium bikes are, then he says he got one of the last cr125's before they went aluminium, and they say its the worst bike.. a tad ironic. im guessing it was the engine, not the frame that was bad on those?
We sanded the aluminum frame to get it softer. But it wouldn’t last long
I think they went to aluminum for weight savings and how much more trick it looked. "The next new thing"
would the host let the guest speak
only Jase has the King of SX on his show and treats him like its his punk brother... interrupting every 40 seconds. we love ya Jase and it's your show, but...
Watched the whole thing and i still don't know if he likes aluminum or steel better? Great vid like a 8 year old mid sentence anddddd its gone>>>>>>>>>>>>
KTM steel all day baby
aluminum for bicycles
97 CR125 bad? That’s the last steel frame
Think they confused it with the 97 250 that WAS aluminum.
Gyspy why do you not react to every weekend to the supercross n what’s going on n n make videos about it it’s boring you juss interviewing people we barley know I mean people know McGrath but yk what I’m saying
whos the guest.
You see this all the time in the sport. Anderson seems to be not as fast this season on the new bike. I heard gas gas made changes that Barcia didn't like and he's struggling to get top 10s. Webb couldn't stand the KTM the year after he won his last title
I’m not trying to be a smartass! But the 97 CR125 was steel framed,must have been a 98
All older Honda's, street, dirt=headshake
I bought a used 1997 CR125 could never get that bike right
Way cheaper to produce aluminum frames..once tooling set up..
Aluminum Is for mountain bikes and beer cans.
Aluminum frames require far less welds, they are cheaper to build
Ithink he won the races cause most riders were just picking up a easy check and didnt want to win you cant tell me a seasoned pro rider never wins a main but he was putting in his best effort
no way and yes i did have a 97 CR250
alu on track steal in woods
I cant believe ronnie mac uses that worst frame ever to get as close to the limit of crashing as possible...not surprised he crashed out at least once...its absolutely horrendous and i sold it immediately aafter riding it many moons ago!!
Please for the love of god do some research on metallurgy before you comment.
I DONT KNOW WHY STIFF ISNT GOOD I THINK YOUR ALL HEAD CASES
THE 450S ARE LIGHT YEARS STIFFER THAN A 96 CR250 AND DONT EVEN TRY TO TELL ME THEY ARENT THE 2024 BIKES ARE WAY STIFFER
McGrath would have squeeked out the championship in 97 if hed gave it a chance. I raced both the 92-94 frame and to the 97-99 frames. Not that much difference i felt. Jeremy rode the same 93 frame for 3-4 years and that was his secret weopon never having to adjust to a "new" bike like all his competition. Feeling comfortable on your bike Rd. 1 would be enourmous advantage. Lusk didnt crash due to the aluminum frame Jeremy, he crashed becuz he was Lusk. A go for broke, do or die, checkers or wreckers type of rider. Maybe hondas stiff a/f and always impossible to tune ft forks, but not the frame at all. Not hating on you and always a great guy. Never got your dam autograph even once due to those lines you always had wrapped around the trailer and pits 7 times😂 from your trillion and ten superfans... Kind enuff to pose with my now long gone but not forgotten ex girlfriend as she loved you so... Still got that dam picture somewhere😅 Wont dispute who the King of SX is but i also wont say i loved to watch you win every race so dominatingly as you did like in 96. Made racing boring A/F. Jeremys got the holeshot. Jeremys in the lead. Jeremy has a 7 no 8 second lead. Jeremy takes another win. Back then may as well turn off the race after lap 3. Noones catching ya with your " holeshot, run n hide" lil strategy you and Chip played so well. Bahhhhh im just bitter i guess...😂 at a lot more than ya know.
The 97 cr 125 was a steel frame 😭
They over built the aluminum frames because they didn’t know how the aluminum would fatigue and thought it would break because it is a softer material than steel. They made dam sure those frames would not break, and the super ridged aluminum frame was born. The 1st gen cr aluminum frames are the absolute worst aluminum frame, unless you don’t mind having your teeth rattled out of your face. I used to own a 1997 CR250, and I have never been so fatigued after riding a dirt bike, as I was after riding that CR! I really tried my hardest to like that bike, but with far better bikes out there, I wound up selling that thing as fast as I could and bought a CFR450R! Now I’m in love with my CRF450, and I wouldn’t have it any other way!
Turn it into a tire iron😂😂
If Yamaha and Honda had any brains they would ditch alu and go back to chromo...KTM proved a curved and round chromo structure is stronger and lighter overall with 10 fold the ability to cope with cyclic fatigue
Really want to hear Jeremy not the Beard
I was lucky enough to own two 84 Suzuki RM 250s one the greatest bikes ever made, but my first new bike I bought was a total pile of shit 83 Yamaha YZ 250, they wanted bikes extra light back then so it came with hollow bead rims that bent and aluminum spoke nipples they never stayed seated, it had a light weight aluminum piston that lasted 3 weeks before it cracked, on it's 3rd piston I traded for a brand new 83 XR 500R. nothing new about crap race bikes!