something i immediately noticed is how easy this controller looks to repair. phillips head screws, singular large board, very few pieces, that’s so cool
I'd say that this stick is probably very difficult to fix if it starts giving false readings. If the stick itself shears, it will be easy to replace, but in order to fix the sensor, you would need to solder new hall effect sensors to the board, which is by no means easy for the average person. I think the largest advantage of this design is its inherent durability, rather than the repairability.
I've taken apart the Saturn's Arcade Racer wheel and noticed that it, too, had no potentiometer or any physical parts rubbing together like other racing wheels of that era. It rather had a ring rotating by a sensor that read the grooves that were cut out of the ring. Possibly some magnetism at work here as well. SEGA apparently had some genius hardware engineers.
Is not genious engineers... Is just how most industrial sticks \ controls worked outside the gaming industry. Remember that these type of control inputs where invented outside of videogames.
If the grooves were cut all the way through, it most likely used a (led) emitter, and a sensor to count how many of the grooves had passed by. Same way old ball mice worked, and scroll wheels. The machining centers where I work also track the axes that way, albeit with a slightly different shutter setup.
You're thinking rotary encoder, which is what the N64 stick used, albeit made of plastic with a high tension spring which made it eat itself; buuuut that's a whole other story.
I got a nintendo switch, and less than a month later the left stick couldnt stop drifting, and after 4 months my ps5 controller couldnt stop drifting. It's the worst feeling in the universe. God Bless the Dreamcast
This is intentional, to promote after marlet value on their products. There is no other reason not to make a controller with a minimum 25 year lifespan. My original Xbox controllers work perfect, so does all of my N64. Due to joystick drift, I've gone through 8 360 controllers, 4 PS4 Dualshocks, 1 PS5 Dualsense just a few months after opening it which was before they revamped their joystick build which is still inferior to what could be made now. (I still love all my consoles, but this intentional underutilized design of controllers is unacceptable and I wish more gamers were critical about this to force companies to give us a solid, competent product.)
@@DANRYXI hope Hall efect joysticks would become such a trend that the 3 Big videogame companies would integrate them to the current controllers but in a version 2.0, or at least with the 10th consolé generation
I still have the same four Dreamcast controllers that I’ve had for decades… no drift. I guess this is one of those situations where you say… They don’t make things like they used to.
@Super Sharp Shooter That’s the case some of the time, but then there’s other situations where a product just isn’t built well enough for the long term. Such as with the DualSense and also the Joy-Con, both are clearly not built to last.
@Super Sharp Shooter nah I'm on my 4th joy con. I take care of em well. Clean, not everysed, not being thrown or dropped. It's the stick, not me. The old wii nunchuck still works despite wayyyy more use
I think joy con drift is like the red ring for Nintendo. its a problem thats worse than normal but I don't think its a big problem of the industry as a whole.
@Super Sharp Shooter I had to change my Xbox controller that came with my series x because drift and i take really good care of my stuff. But it is not as bad as the switch controller, geez that is a bad controller!
Wow, Sega was the best. I bought my Dreamcast that I currently have on day one, 9/9/99, and I had no idea the analog controller used this technology. My mind is blown. Thanks Spawnwave!!
Have you ever created a self-boot of a translated Japan-only title? I actually have a disc somewhere with an English-translated version of Super Street Fighter II Turbo for Dreamcast, which was for the longest time the most accurate port, on a nice printed (I remember putting in the code on the printer to unlock printing on discs) CD-R. One version (printed in a different color) even had the soundtrack swapped out for the 3D0's remade music. You even got to play the CPU version of Akuma, as well as an even _more_ over-the-top version that got the Raging Demon as a Super (but all specials only gave minimal meter for doing).
I've always thought the dreamcast analogue stick felt alot tighter and more accurate than anything else, explains why it feels soo good to play games with it, that and the size makes it a joy to hold
@@Zinkolo even if they were cheaply made they still work 20 years later like they did on day 1 meanwhile ps4 and 5 controllers have stick drift out of the box for 60$ a pop, it’s ridiculous
what is not as well known is, early sixasis ps3 controller and xbox duke controllers had hall effect sticks aw well just like the dreamcast before switching to regular sticks.
For me there were two main problems with the controller, no second stick(understandable why they did that at the time, but still), and where the cord connected. Yes, I know you can wrap the cord around to that slot on the back, but it still felt weird.
@@Cerebrum123 I would also say the controller needed Either an extra set of shoulder buttons or they should have kept the 6 button layout like on the Saturn 3D controller
@@HollowRick The shoulder buttons definitely would have been helpful but that was less frustrating for me personally. They actually did have other controllers that had a six-button layout but those were more expensive. I'm guessing the default one just didn't have those to cut down costs.
I think other companies haven't followed this trend 'cause these sensors might be more expensive and companies always charged a lot for new controllers so if it breaks they can sell more
With drone controllers, a controller that used to use potentiometers, recently released with hall effect sensors. It had a markup of just $20. For the console industry that sells a lot more controllers, they'd probably have better economies of scale, meaning if should be even less of a markup. Console industry is just keeping it cheap to sell more when they break. It's actually a common business practice.
That has been the trend for so many years. I remember our philip black and white TV lasting well into the 2000s. And it was the only tv in the whole village when we bought it. Now there is a trend to increase business and keep on moving units as the production is a lot more rampant nowadays. People used to prefer things actually made in Japan back then. Chinese goods were simply not durable back then.
They've actually figured out how to use less expensive components in controllers over the years, so it doesn't really make sense that they have become so much more expensive. I believe spare Dreamcast controllers were like $40-$50. Granted, some newer controllers have touch pads, accelerometers and gyroscopes, most manufacturing methods (molding, part procurement, etc.) have become less expensive.
@@lamario The most common areas of failure in modern controllers are either joysticks or triggers/shoulder buttons. The trigger/shoulder buttons are typically because they are using even in things like the dual sense since are those little lynch pins that can easily wear out and fail. Meanwhile Nintendo,Sony and Microsoft all use those ALPS analog stick parts. Prone to the exact same issues and incredibly cheap.
Obviously, Sega knows how to make a joystick. After all, they were the only console maker (after the exit of Atari) with years of experience in the Arcade business. Arcade machines take a lot of abuse, so it better not be too fragile. People who owned Sega consoles knew their controllers were the best. The problem was convincing the masses who only ever played with a Playstation controller and had grown used to its inadequacies. Talk of who had the best controller just wasn’t much of a thing in the early 2000’s when everyone was obsessed with graphics.
PS2's graphics weren't even as clean. They often relied on stupid tricks like interlacing to get a little more performance out of it. But Dreamcast was always full framed with VGA support which holds up well to this day on modern LED/LCD TV's or monitors. Also I really disliked the PlayStation controllers - especially their stupid separated D-pads which ripped my thumbs up in fighting games! And Dreamcast controllers were very affordable back then - like $20 new, and I got 3 on clearance for only $5 each back in the day!
Weird that he didn't mention the triggers are also hall sensors. Current xbox controllers use the same technique for the triggers. Hopefully they all start to use hall sensors soon.
3rd party companies maybe Gulikit has their own patent one but hoping 8bitdo will utilize it in the future. But Sony, Nintendo, & Microsoft they ain't going to do it ever due to losing profits if idiots like us just keep buying their expensive controllers everytime it has issues.
@@edwardtan1354 I don't know, controllers such as the Astro C40 and Thrustmaster e-swap pro controller also have a similar design of switching the sticks and they to still have stick drift issues overtime.
I too miss Sega being in the hardware race. I put all my eggs in the Dreamcast basket. I bought over 50 games for it and had 4 controllers and 4 vmus and all the manuals. It was a awesome system with lots of fun games. I wonder if it had a DVD drive and played DVDs, if it would have stuck around a few more years. I'm sure there was lots of games in development when Sega said Yoink! And pulled the plug. These days I play Dreamcast on barocera and it's amazing!
No the simple fact is Sega went bankrupt due to Sega of America selling Dreamcasts $50 below cost. The theory was they would make their money back on games and they probably would of in a few years but the Dreamcast literally sold Sega into bankruptcy. Perhaps Sega would of made enough money to crest the profit wave if they had some anti piracy measures for the system but they didn't and piracy was a major issue as anyone with a CD burner could copy or download games . A DVD drive might of helped sell more systems and aided system longevity but it couldn't help with Sega of America decision to sell systems at a loss while fully embracing a model of only profiting on software but not protect ing that software. Microsoft did something similar on their profit model with the Xbox and 360 but Sega didn't have the near bottomless pockets to pull it off like Microsoft did later and Microsoft also had anti-pirate measures in place.
@@tsiefhtes Dreamcast's anti-piracy WAS the Yamaha GD-Rom discs. Sega went to Yamaha and asked them to make a proprietary type of disk media LIKE a CD-ROM, but one that couldn't be copied. Yamaha's answer was the GD-ROM which is what all Dreamcast games were released on. Problem was: It didn't take long at all for the hackers to figure it out. I was in the Dreamcast pirating scene very early on, and at first, you had to have a "boot disk" that would surpass the code of the GD-ROM, then you open the tray, insert the copied game, close the tray, and viola! The game would boot. Shortly after that they learned how to write the "boot disk" code onto the TOC of every pirated DC game and you no longer even needed the "boot disk". It became the easiest console to pirate games on.
IDK why Hall sensors aren't just the default. I can't imagine they're saving that much money, since they're in literally in every brushless DC motor. Then again, if they made the controllers more reliable, they couldn't charge you $70-$100 for a new one every two years.
im guessing its space. that thing looks as tick as the joy con its self. You have to have some kind of physical gap and the magnet cant be too close or all the senors will see the same thing
Typical sticks work with mechanical potentiometers which are at cheapest just some metallic/graphite film deposited on PCB which a stylus slides on. Hall effect requires slightly more complex components for measuring magnetic fields. And to corporations every fraction of a cent counts.
It seems PS Vita OLED model used hall effect sensors for analog inputs but later model changed it with carbon contacts (They are literally potentiometers) I guess it is cheaper option for manufacturers ?
With the exception of the Switch Pro controller, every new input device seems to be made with really cheap parts. My Pro and GC controller feel as good as new after 5 years, meanwhile I had to repair a set of Joycon due to drift, I had to replace an Xbox One controller cause the Y button stopped working after 1,5 years and right now I'm replacing a series X controllers after 4 months, cause R1 stopped working. Also my girlfriends Xbox One controllers both got stick drift and a button issue, even though she didn't play that often.
The Dreamcast was the first system I ever bought, with my own money anyways. I'll never forget the first time I saw Soul Calibur. What an amazing system for it's time! After that I bought an Xbox at launch, which was even more awesome because of all the Dreamcast sequels!
@@ebenezerspludge8369 ? Neither system has that many exclusives, what u mean lol? They're both in the same boat, although I'd have to give the edge to Xbox with what's on the horizon. Way more interested in Bethesda games than Tekken, which is the only Sony exclusive I can think of (and even that is not confirmed)
@@DarkReturns1 Sony has way more exclusives on PS5. I'm just going to shout off the games I own. Ratchet and clank, Demon Souls, The pathless, Horizon Forbidden west, Returnal, Spider Man, Astros Playroom, Deathloop, Sackboy, Ghostwire. Kena and Sifu. All great games. The Xbox / Bethesda merger isn't complete but even when it is I'll be buying those games on PC if by some miracle they aren't trash. What was the last Bethesda game that was great? Skyrim in 2011! I once was an Xbox fan but they are pointless now. Look at all the great games coming out on PS5. A wolveriene game, God of War, Spiderman 2 and Tekken 8 not to mention the next uncharted, That Starwars game, Street Fighter and their VR head set. You tell me what I should be excited for on Xbox. Maybe I'm missing something.
@@DarkReturns1 Their are also other exclusives I didn't mention because I don't own them. Gran Turismo 7, Godfall and Destruction Allstars to name a few. The last time I turned on my Xbox was last year for Forza 5. Great game but that' all I use it for.
@@ebenezerspludge8369 half of those or more aren't PS5 exclusives... I'm not gonna tell you what games you should like lol, to each their own. But the argument about "Xbox Series X has no exclusives" is so silly because neither systems have alot of exclusives right now. If you have a last gen console or a PC there's not much of a point in owning a PS5 or XSX imo
Sega has always been super innovative and pushing the boundaries. Back in the '80s the Sega Master system here in the US had active shutter 3D glasses for a couple of their 3D games something that most people wouldn't have in their own home until the 3D glasses craze for TVs hit about 6 years ago.
3D glasses, VR back then would have been interesting if it did come out. Even their 3DS use of 3D seems pretty good. Sega doing their own thing was always cool to see with their peripherals even if they sometimes didn't go well. They were always interesting to seek out when researching. That and 3D movies have been in and out for years before 2010 but either way for games it was an interesting time doing stuff back then and how much holds up or is still crazy to think about Mercury tilt switch motion controls even as third party controllers. I can only go off research having never experienced them myself.
@@suntannedduck2388 Sega was actually working on a VR headset for the Mega Drive. It was cancelled literally weeks before release, units were even made but were scrapped.
So cool to see this! I am currently equipping hall effect sensors in an industrial application for monitoring fan speeds, and it's really cool to see the tech was applied to a controller 20 years ago!
I put a concave stick cap on my Dreamcast controller and it feels perfect. The convex surface and rough plastic is my only complaint with it. I haven’t ever even had trigger problems with mine.
I have never understood why convex style sticks are even a thing. The old Dualshock sticks were the worst offender, but any convex stick is just terrible design imo. Concave is so much more pleasant toplay with.
@@leandervr Interestingly the Sega Saturn 3D controller had a concave stick. It even had a circular loop inside for better grip similar to modern controllers.
I'm mixed about the dream cast. It was great for its time but i also think it came out too soon. The PS2, GC and Xbox are still really great systems that I would take over the Dreamcast but I don't think the Dreamcast sucks.
@@keithmichael112 Sega made a watershed of mistakes but Piracy doesn’t matter if nobody buys the system. Just look at the GameCube or N64 and it’s piracy prevention actually hurt it’s sales and game library. The Dreamcast just needed system sellers and Shenmue was financially a disaster while SA2 came out too late. Had the Dreamcast lasted a third year, GTA3 would probably have been a console exclusive which would have moved units.
Hall Effect sensors have been big in flight sim joysticks for years, largely because they are both very precise and don't wear out. I think they took hold earlier there because it ended up being such a niche market serviced by enthusiasts, so it was easier to justify in a $200-$300+ joystick.
The N64 also had a very reliable way for reading x and y axis, it used the same optic wheel sensing that you would find in a ball mouse. The problem with the n64 sticks however was the piss poor mechanical side of it, in which there was a lot of friction, and with it a lot of wear on the small plastic components
Not to mention Nintendo's favorite mechanic on the N64 was to have you rotate the stick as fast as you can, no doubt putting a lot of excess wear on it.
The Dreamcast was an amazing design. It truly was the first modern console. The company burned through all their good will (with both consumers and developers) and didn't have the financial backbone to push the console forward. For the Dreamcast to succeed, not only did Sega need more money, the 32x shouldn't have happened and the Saturn launch was executed better and territories outside of Japan would had better support.
@@tynao2029 Not sure how much piracy killed the Dreamcast. Think about it, this was late 90s, people were still running dial up and upload and download speeds were in kbps. I highly doubt the typical person would feasibly be able to download or upload Dreamcast games en masse at that time.
@@dhgmrz17 Everyone who knows anything about gaming knows piracy killed the Dreamcast. Dreamcast released 9/9/99, by the time most of its games came out, it was the 2000s. PS2 didn't release until 10/26/2000, more than a year later. All up until release, Sony did everything they could to host Torrents and upload the games onto the internet. DSL and Broadband was available and pretty widespread. Even on 56k with a torrent, you could easily download games over a day or two. Piracy killed the Dreamcast. And it was all by an evil company with an even crappier product, the PS2. Sure, the PS2 was good, but it was no Dreamcast.
@@tynao2029 Hold on, where did you get the information that Sony hosted torrents and uploaded Dreamcast games to the web? I have never heard anything like that before.
It is possible to make a stick with hall effect sensors and a push button, gulikit makes a controller like that and sells replacement steam deck stick modules with that style of stick, although the design is much more similar to potentiometer joysticks than the dreamcast one, it uses a nearly identical stick box but replaces the potentiometers with a pair of rotational hall effect sensors. They aren't drop in replacements, although it may be possible for them or a modder to make a flex pcb with a microcontroller and digitally controllable potentiometers that would allow you to remove the old stick, solder the flex on top of the board, then solder one of their sticks on top of the flex to fix controllers using standard potentiometer joysticks, although they don't sell their hall effect sticks individually and aren't currently offering those. (They also sell replacement switch compatible sticks, but those are potentiometer based sticks, not hall effect)
it is possible, the current potentiometer based sticks dont actually have the click button built-in, the click button is merely a microswitch button placed near the potentiometer.
Theoretically, if they are using 4 hall effect sensors already, then pushing down on the stick would be visible to the sensors as an increase in the magnetic field on all 4. It would be a bit harder as the stick was moved to the extents of the directions. I'm sure it would be possible to map the effect though and program the software accordingly.
Also the Dreamcast’s unique stick is also part of the reason why rail grinding is broken in every version of SA2 released on other consoles, since it doesn’t account for the different analog sticks used by other consoles
Dreamcast had my all time favorite controller. It just felt right in my hand and the VMU was pretty cool. I dont know if the design of the stick can be scaled down to the size of a joycon but it would be really nice.
I liked the VMU and the mini games you could toss on there. The analog joystick was amazing. The analog joystick had 0 drift and was ultra responsive. 🙂
@@G360LIVE Last time I played Dreamcast I was literally reaching for a right joystick with my right thumb, only to realize "wait, that didn't exist yet" 😂
I also loved the Dreamcast controller, but I can admit...that D-pad would mangle your thumb if you were into fighting games at all. I would love a modern clone of the controller with bluetooth, second analog, and shoulder buttons.
I really like videos like this one. Especially since I've been obsessed with Dreamcast lately, I've played it back then, but I've never owned it. It was such a cool system.
I loved my Dreamcast, was an awesome system for the time. The controllers also felt really good in my hands, very comfortable to hold. I do agree with the cable coming out the back, I felt that was dumb but I could see why they did it, where else are you going to put the cable with the VMU's being where they are. But the system did have some really good games on it.
Yet another reason I want to see the "If Sega won" timeline. the other being the 6 face button layout. Gimme 2 sticks, 2 bumpers, a d-pad, and 6 face... instead of 4 face 2 stick clicks
Maybe I've been lucky, but I never had to deal with drift in my 30 years of gaming...until the Switch. Though, it doesn't surprise to see Sega implement this decades before the rest. They, like Sony in the mid 00s, were way ahead of the curve.
Also, around 30 years of gaming, and almost the same situation, I only have had drifting problems with 2 consoles, the PSVita (long after I bought it, and many falls letters) and my Switch, soon after I bought it and treated it really well.
I miss the days when it was just because someone was holding the stick when we plugged them in, and all you had to do to fix it was unplug the controller.
I have had problems with dead zones on analog controllers since forever. but im guessing now with it being built into the switch light and with controllers being so pricey people care now.
I heard that even Sony did Hall Effect sensors on certain PS3 controller variants. And I think the Sega Saturn 3D pad was rocking Hall Effect sensors even earlier than Dreamcast, but obviously it was an optional accessory at the time. I think I read that Dreamcast costcutting meant that later controller variants used the friction based potentiometers, too.
One of the first controllers I repaired. Always helped to put a little lubricant under the ball part which houses the magnet. Also I think I trimmed the spring to have smoother movement. Great controller built very solid.
Potentiometers (apply voltage at one end, ground at the other, wiper returns voltage anywhere in-between) can work fine as long as the wiper readout circuit has high enough input impedance that dust getting between the wiper and track won't affect the voltage much. The biggest problem with modern cost-reduced-to-hell analog sticks such as the JoyCons is their use of variable resistors (pass a known current through the wiper to ground, whatever voltage you get is the position) instead, which is orders of magnitude more susceptible to getting messed up by the tiniest bit of dust getting in the wiper's way.
@@FindecanorNotGmail For a properly made potentiometer and sense circuit, that would be a heck of a lot of mileage before causing problems. Doesn't help that modern joystick designs try to cram the entire analog range in 2-3mm of wiper travel instead of ~20mm in older-school stuff like the DS2.
problem is, their approach didn't really solve the issue. they kinda "retrofit" them in ordinary thumbsticks mechanic which has more parts, smaller, and more prone to wear compared to a DC controller. So even if you remove pots friction, that design tends to get loose and thumbstick could rest past the deadzone and register unwanted inputs in some games. Not nearly as bad as the joycon drift, but it's still a step backward from Sega's late 90s design to this day!
I still have my original Dreamcast. One of my favorite systems with a good library! I recently bought a Japanese Sega Saturn 🪐 Been collecting those games to.
Love the MGS2 reference lol but I love the Dreamcast even more. Easily the best non-hybrid home console ever made!!! I still have mine, just gotta replace the laser
I love the simplicity and repairabilty of the design, I get unreasonably angry at products designed to fail quickly. Companies should be fined per unit for making products with intentionally bad designs, with higher fines the shittier it is. These fines would go towards paying for recycling, landfill impact, and the loss of the finite resources tied up in an utter piece of shit.
Only heard of stick drift in recent years (with Vita and Switch), I don't recall that being an issue as severe as now. They don't make them as they used to, seems the statement is true after all.
I got a set of Joycon and 2 barely used Xbox One controllers with stick drift, not to mention a series X controller where R1 stopped working after only 4 months, it's ridiculous. Before that era, I didn't even know stick drift could be an issue. All of my old GC, Wii, PS2 controllers etc. worked for years and the ones I didn't sell still do.
It's more of an issue now because all console manufacturers get their analog sticks from the same factories in China. It's cheaply made junk designed to be sold for as little money as possible. I'm sure Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft love these cheap components, since it lets them cobble a controller together for less money while still charging 60+ for each one. As a consumer, you're expected to just sigh, and go to the store to purchase a new one when it breaks.
Never experienced it till the XboxOne/ps4/switch generation. My 20 year old OG Xbox controllers still work great no drift. Same with my ps2 and GameCube controllers. My 360 controllers have mostly been great. Had one with drift tho. Same with ps3. Where as Xbox one and ps4 most controller get it after about 6 months
They kinda are just not in the way you're thinking lol They seem to be focused on releasing mini versions of their past consoles such as the upcoming Genesis 2 mini
i forgot about this, i took apart my late model sega (dc/saturn} controllers for basic cleaning and maintenance when i first got them and was surprised to find a totally unfamiliar stick mechanism, wasnt entirely sure what it was at first but i came to the conclusion it was some sort of proximity sensor and most likely magnet based, the only real point of concern for the controllers wearing out is the cables, everything else is either a non issue or simple to drop in a replacement
Dreamcast was ahead of its time just was overlooked. First game system to play online with other players. I didn’t have one on the 90’s as a kid but I bought one off eBay for 30$ in 2014. I love the Dreamcast so much I bought a dreamcon control so worth it for me.
Once you get very basic soldering skills it's super easy to pop off the potentiometers with a soldering iron in seconds but you shouldn't have to learn how to solder in order to fix your controller you shouldn't have to fix your controller in the first place especially you controller costing over 60 some dollars the Xbox is halfway there they use hall effect sensors for the triggers making the triggers the longest lasting part in the entire controller
I had to solder freaking 2.4G antenna because warranty repair does not work here, and in fact i bought controller from another country. (Xbox series controller, Aqua Shift edition)
People in the late 90s and early 2000s where so dumb. They was more interested in a DVD player than online gaming. Oh how the tables have turned. The Dreamcast was the holy grail.
The Saturn 3D controller and Dreamcast controller are still fantastic despite some of the design flaws. If a company like retro-bit were to take the license of the design of either and develop a wireless version with some minor adjustments, I'd be totally down for it.
Despite this being my favorite console of all time, I'm not sure why I didn't think to either dissect my own or watch a video like this earlier. I'm amazed at the simplicity of the construction and the how much time it has lasted me. Same with a Playstation 1. I feel like if Sega Dreamcast would release with DVD compatibility, the "console wars" would be Sega, Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft wouldn't have a console until Xbox360 or even at all and yes, flying cars and utopia 😂
Sega's plan was to make the machine as cheap as they could manufacture to keep the costs as low as possible to get as many Dreamcast's in homes before Sony launched the PlayStation 2 because they knew if they didn't have a mass install base by Sony's launch, they were sunk. Adding a DVD drive, a second analogue stick and rumble motors inside the joypad would have cost money and royalty fees I suspect that Sega simply couldn't afford at the time.
The PhobGCC, a custom motherboard for the Gamecube controller, uses hall sensors, so you put two magnets on the stickbox and put a magnetic sensor on the mobo, and it works great, but mostly it's perfect input-wise even if the stick gets looser by use. It's incredible, and I don't know why other controllers aren't like this.
I would argue that one reason Hall Effect Sensors were not more widely adopted was because they were attempted prior to this on Atari’s Major Havoc arcade game, and were one of the greatest points of failure of that game.
Every time I watch a video about Dreamcast, I feel so bad that Sega doesn't make consoles anymore. One youtuber I watched summarised Dreamcast with this quote: "It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness, that is life." Dreamcast just wasn't ready for our world.
...........THEIR MANAGEMENT WAS HORRIBLE REMAINS AND WILL BE THE SAME--THATS *_WHY_* ......................AND SEGA ACTUALLY KILLED SONIC BY FIRING ALL GUYS WHO ACTUALLY CREATED SONIC...IN FAR 2006...........AND CHANGED THEM WITH GUYS WHO DONT ARGUE,DONT ASK QUESTIONS,AND JUST DOING WHATEVER SEGA ORDER THEM TO
I have PS2 controllers that never gave me problems. Crazy how stuck drift hinders so many newer controllers from PS4 and up that I’ve experienced. The Dreamcast controller was always an interesting one but it’s one of the best.
Same, I have quite a controller collection and all of my PS1/PS2 controllers still function perfectly and some of them are probably 20+ years old now. The Dual Shock series controllers are my absolute fav controllers of all time. They come in all sorts of nice colours, and are just beasts and work forever. And they are super comfortable, and I love the analog sticks on them. I'd say the DS3 was the best due to analog triggers. But they all just feel nice in the hand, and all have awesome analog sticks, IMO.
Yeah, I bought a 2nd hand PS2. The Controller was filthy but no Drift. I think there's a trade off though. Newer Controllers are more precise but are more prone to drift.
I still remember being able to play tennis by only looking on the memory unit display😂. There was also a racing game where you could couple multiple dreamcasts for a multi tv cockpit. Sega tried out a lot with the dreamcast
Great video. Always nice to see love for the Dreamcast. As you said, it was way ahead of its time. And i also wonder how different things would have turned out if the Dreamcast had DVD capabilities. Like another user noted, "the Dreamcast didn't fail us, we failed the Dreamcast".
I have cleaned, repaired, and modded hundreds of Dreamcast systems. with that I make sure the controllers are up to snuff. I have NEVER come across drift issue with an original Dreamcast controller! thank you for bringing this up to the masses! oh so is the "3D controller" made for the Saturn have the same tech? i have not owned one in a while or taken one apart. but its obviously a prototype/precursor of the DC controller. So Sega may have been using the Tech even earlyer!
The fact of the matter is really more about how we use to build things to last, now its about how to introduce planned obsolescence, just to make more money, alot of problems have been "solved" in the past, but we still do not use old tech today, because there market sales would be a lot less, be carefull what you buy and who you support
I always liked the Dreamcast controllers despite the cord coming out from the bottom. The fact that the stick is made the way it was makes it even better in my mind. But I have heard so much from people who think that the DC would have succeeded had it only had DVD capabilities. Sadly, it wouldn't even have gotten off the launchpad if Sega tried that. Why? When the DC was in the design phase, DVD was still a new technology. The few players that were out there were extremely expensive, which is why few people had one. If Sega decided to go back to the drawing board and incorporate a DVD, it would have likely added at least $200 to the $199 (US) price tag, or even more since the DC launched in Japan in Dec. 1998. Sega, because of the failure of the Sega Saturn was haemorrhaging cash by this time and could ill afford any missteps in the DC's launch. And as we saw, even at such a low price point it still failed (partly because of the late launch of online gaming, and mostly because of the ungodly hype train that was the upcoming PS2). But Sony's PS2, which did incorporate DVD, was able to succeed because Sony could easily afford to eat the initial cost of incorporating DVD, which was slowly becoming cheaper to produce in the interim between the DC's launch and the PS2's, and many people in Japan bought launch PS2s because it was a cheap DVD player to them. But Sega didn't have that luxury, and with the failure of the DC (I know, it's still a great game machine in my opinion, and I got it at launch from my preorder), Sega could no longer afford to compete without destroying themselves. What would be a great idea in my opinion, is if Sega, who I assume still holds the copyright for that analog stick, licensed the use of the tech behind the stick to other interested parties. With the current worries over joystick drift, perhaps we'd get better controllers and Sega would get a profitable revenue stream without having to develop another product.
Ironically, in 1996 Sega was indeed interested in putting in a DVD drive for their next system, but at the end of the day they couldnt do it. I did hear an argument that they didnt do it cause they are a video game company first and foremost (prior to the Sammy merge) so they probably didnt want to get the license to use DVDs on their new platform, same reason as to how Nintendo still didnt do it to this day (even thou the Gigaleak showed us that the GC did indeed had plans to incorporate DVD technology into it and the Wii as well) Sony was able to do it because they helped create the format alongside Philips, Toshiba and Panasonic. Why should they get a license from their own company to use their own technology? That does sound a lil silly when you think about it. But yes, I definitely agree with the last statement.
GDrom wasn't the reason Dreamcast failed. Sega of Japans awful business practices and their constant beefs with Sega of America proved that the old men running SoJ killed the company and the DC. DC had great games and was easy to develop for. it was a bit underpowered but it also came out 2 years before the other competition
@@iiOmarSP If Sega had indeed adopted DVD with the initial design, could you imagine how much a DC would have cost on launch? I remember our department store got refurbished DVD players in late 1999 (around the Christmas season) and even refurbed they cost $249.99. And the most common argument with potential buyers was "well, why should I buy a DVD player? I'd have to get rid of my VHS tapes" (Uh, WHY?). And naturally Sony went with the format; just like with Blu-ray in the PS3, they were trying to get people to adopt DVD, and that's exactly what happened. DVD was a no-winner for Sega, and if they had indeed adopted the format, it would have flat-out killed Sega because of sheer cost.
Never had Dreamcast, but being able to easily replace stick is neat thing on it's own, and it looks so simple and there's practically nothing can brake (under normal usage) all i can get from mind is spring loosing up (as you said) and magnet demagnetising
PS3 had that, but nobody cared and "people" flamed it regardless, nobody talked about the never drifting Sticks (before A1 Revision)... that shows we don't give a shit about drifting sticks and only care about superficial stuff that makes the Controller either fail, unrepairable or disgusting after 5 years or so.
@@lolcat No, because YOU don't care and bashed and flamed the Controller that had Magnet based Sticks and never gave them credit for it -> SONY PS3 was the last first party Controller that won't drift. Did you talk positively about it? Probably not. So why should SONY care when you don't?
@@Stefan_Payne maybe nobody talked about it because a controller working is kind've the point. You said it yourself. The ps3 controller was the last one to not drift, meaning up until they chose to make worse controllers. Non drifting controllers were the standard
@@christianr.5868 PS2, Gamecube, IIRC XBOX and XBOX 360 controllers were drifting though, with time, as they all used 150 year old Tech. And Potentiometers will wear out and cause drifting. There is a Workaroud for that, that is absolute garbage horse shit: increase the Dead Zone. And that really destroys the feeling... And IIRC the Playstation uses a lower Deadzone than some of the Competition, which makes them more suceptible to Drifting. But then again, its not the Companies fault, its OUR Fault for not talking about it, giving credit and flaming the PS3 controller for everything.
The Dreamcast stick had a different problem - it would feel stiff moving left to right half way across the axis. I took mine apart and put petroleum jelly into the plastic parts that move up and into the middle of the stick and it pretty much solved the problem...But then I ended up with disc read issues and random resets, so sold up.
@@Sanchaz12 Good tip 👍. I remember my Tamiya RC car had some specific lithium grease for use in the differential. Didn't think to use it back then but it was getting on for 20 years ago so I was only a teenager!
@Steve D I remember cleaning and bending the pins to apply more pressure to the contacts. Also tried cocktail sticks in the socket on the PSU board to keep pressure on the pins. It helped but didn't stop it. Games that streamed music started having problems and then later the disc drive failed. I enjoyed the console while I had it but decided it wasn't worth the hassle dealing with such unreliable hardware.
Just goes to show that there has always been a solution to joystick drift, it's just that companies don't give two craps anymore. Old PS2 controllers could survive years before even having a loose joystick, my old PSP had a good 6 year run before having drift. There is NO reason why game companies shouldn't address an issue that should be non-existent today, let alone back in the day. There's just no competition anymore, it's all about maximizing profit all day every day.
Don't forget that the PS3, from prototype controllers up until the third to last DualShock 3 models released, and PS Vita, the OLED model at least, also had magnetic sticks. Though they were based on an inductor that also had a sense line, a specialized chip drove the inductor, the magnet on the stick's gimbal manipulated the inductor's field, then the sense line fed it back into the same chip, for what I assume was amplification before feeding it into the controller's main chip; the PS3 variant was based on the same potentiometer-based housing, and the Vita's was a different housing but had a similar setup for the inductor PCB. The cool thing is, someone has tested and had a very limited run product that uses this same concept to make regular mechanical key switches be analog compatible, down to the point where you only need a thin plastic PCB, as it's just a coil of copper for induction and sense that uses the mechanical switch's spring as the field manipulator rather than a magnet, with some extra processing at the chip end of things, between a typical keyboard PCB and the key switches, as a very DIY-able and upgradable approach to analog keyboards. Gulikit's variant is probably the best of what currently exists, where the standardized housing is easily a drop-in component. Though I'd argue that a needed upgrade to this is getting rid of the metallic housing that needs soldered in, and instead use a housing that uses plastic clips as the retention mechanism; going one step further than Sega with the Dreamcast controller, where the controller shell with the screwed in PCB is the retention mechanism. Gulikit's implementation is also simpler, using only two sensors per stick with opposing magnets to generate a solid field boundary that the hall effect sensors can read, rather than relying on a singular dipole magnet to do the same; in comparison to the Dreamcast design using four sensors and only one pole of the magnet, which also requires additional logic to produce a positive or negative signal. Though, I do wonder with the Dreamcast's design, if it were to evolve to have a push button under the stick, as all modern sticks now have, how compatible it'd be. I'd imagine a push down would inevitably cause a stronger signal in the sensor, causing additional directional input when that isn't wanted. I'm not sure how affected by this the Sony design was, as the field would logically be similarly affected. Gulikit's design, once again, seems to be best, as you're passing the boundary line perpendicularly over the sensor, the slight tilt in the stick's gimbal when pressing the button should be entirely negligible. But at the same time, I do think there could be further improvements, like having the button under the stick entirely, rather than off to one side with a degree of gimbal tilt to actuate it, rather a button under the stick would allow for linear vertical movement of the gimbal, which in a design like Gulikit's would work well, in a design like Sega's might not work as well due to the previously stated issue. The only real issue with magnetic sticks is calibration and longevity of the spring being able to return to a true center, which is why these sticks still have deadzones. If you look at Gulikit's King Kong Pro 2's no deadzone feature, the non-pro version doesn't offer this, the sticks' input can be super jittery due to how the spring returns to center, which is why deadzones are still needed. A heavier spring also doesn't entirely fix this, due to the stick itself being more resistive to movement, while a lighter spring that makes a stick feel floaty would have this centering issue if not also introduce rebounding. I also wish Gulikit would produce a modified design of the hall effect joysticks to be a drop-in replacement for all controllers. Their design is having the sensors on the controller's PCB with a ring that contains the magnets on the stick's gimbal, with a potentiometer-like housing that's nothing more than a cover. If they were to modify this to where they shrink this ring, put the sensor on a small PCB with legs for soldering, and integrated all of this into the potentiometer-like housing as a potentiometer replacement, this could be a solution for other controllers. Given that Gulikit is working on a JoyCon replacement using hall sensors, which they're _very_ public about, I don't see why they wouldn't also be working on a drop-in replacement for the common controller potentiometer. Sadly, we probably won't see this in first-party controllers for some time. Sony's solution is replaceable modules, which has been done before, in their pro-style controller. No idea what Microsoft is doing with their next pro-style controller, but I'd be genuinely surprised if they use magnetic sticks, though this would be a massive selling feature, but sadly probably wouldn't trickle down to the standard controller anytime soon. Gulikit is however being a supplier of these sticks for other companies, Aya Neo has bought into it, 8BitDo now has a controller using them, the Steam Deck has replacement modules using the magnetic sticks, and I'm not sure who else they're supplying to currently or has plans to supply to in the future; though I wouldn't be surprised if the module-based sticks, like Sony's 'solution' which borrows the concept from at least one other company, will see magnetic replacements, their socials have already said there's 'a good chance' of the Sony stick module having a magnetic alternative. Outside of Gulikit, there seems to be no interest in non-pot sticks, and I think the only way the rest of the industry will get interested is if these third parties, both the manufacturer and other brands implementing them into their own products, make a push large enough to disrupt ALPS, who supplies all the first-party pots and a lot of the better third-party pots. Even then, I think magnetic sticks won't be common for another couple generations at the very least.
Makes sense to me. I wonder if SEGA is still holding a patent on the joystick and that's why no-one else seems to have just ripped-off the design. Also wonder why SEGA never released their own 3rd party controllers for consoles just to thumb their nose at everyone by doing it better. It's almost like they hate money & practical business sense...
That certainly sounds like sega of america (sega of japan was often making better decisions when sega was big, but then sega of america would ignore those decisions and do something stupid)
@@coopercummings8370 it was ultimately the miscommunication and internal battling between sega of japan and america that was segas downfall. poor old sega europe was just watching from the sidelines and getting screwed by both of them.
Sega's analogue stick patent would have expired by the end of 2019 just like their patent for the arrow in Crazy Taxi expired that year but I suppose the XBox Series X/S and PS5 controllers would have already been well into the design stages by then so that could be why they didn't use it.
Sega did make 3rd party controllers They used to make Controllers for Sony They released a Sega Saturn clone controller for the PS1 and one of the first wireless controllers for the PS2
I've always felt that a big part of joystick failure is the "clickable stick" function (aka L3 and R3 on most controllers). It seems like drift became a drastically more common issue once that feature was introduced, and very few games use it for anything interesting anyway.
Was thinking about the same thing. I wonder if there's a simple design iteration which can leverage the advantages of this design without losing L3/R3.
the xbox was essentially the spiritual successor to the dreamcast, many of the design choices were inspired by the dreamcast and MS worked closely with Sega on the DC no doubt knowing they were looking to gain some insight for if/when they got into consoles
The companies made a conscious decision to use potentiometers because they have a set lifetime. They want controllers to be consumables that have to be bought multiple times over the lifetime of a console. It's all about the profits over everything else.
I never experienced stick drift on any controller till I got a Switch. The DC is my all-time favorite console but the controller ergonomics suck. No clue what Sega was thinking or who they were designing for.
Alright; This is how you want to play? My comments have been getting deleted. I'm going to post the topic I was linking out too. This is quoted from a post complaining about Nintendo's new Oled Switches. A buddy of mine already knew this as he likes tinkering with game consoles and fixes them as a hobby. He posted this back in 2021 under the username Quto: *Aside from Oled being a nicer screen and the increased memory size + better constructed Switch Dock, kick stand, LAN connector and white motif; it's still the same switch and it's something nobody wants.* *They still need to tackle their drift issue, yet they've been dodging drift for ages and no longer promoting their joycon replacement program as they are losing money on replacing the joycons in general.* *Joystick drift is going to be around and there are ways to either fix it traditionally. But the infamy of this is that it's happening more often.* *I still think they could technically tackle the problem by trying Sega's solution, using induction sensors and a magnet from the Dreamcast controllers. The console is about 18+ years old and the joystick still work like a new with little to no drift! :D The down side to the old joystick type is that there's no Stick buttons to click, though this can be worked around.* End Quote. If you go to the Poke Community forums under video games and look up his name under the OLED Switch announcement. He already made this fact known and tells anyone already who makes this same complaint. It continues to fall on deaf ears.
Dreamcast wasn't ahead of its time, in fact it was outdated in some regards like the single analog controller or the cd-based media. But it was build to last, like every Sega console was. A practice all major players seem to have forgotten.
I still mourn the Dreamcast... It could've been a key-player alongside XBOX, PS2 and GC. I am still fantasizing about what would've happened if Sega still pushed the system, releasing Ninja Gaiden, Gun Valkyrie, Panzer Dragon Orta, JSRF, Super Monkey Ball, Virtua Fighter IV etc. exclusively on the console. I mean, ultimately I was impressed by the XBOX and GC, but never really the PS2 due to the poor video output.
Poor video output? Last time I checked dreamcast didn't have 16:9 Progressive Scan and also doesn't support component video Dreamcast is more effective at textures, anti-aliasing, and image quality Whereas the PS2 is more effective at polygon geometry, physics, particles, and lighting. The PS2 also has a more powerful CPU geometry engine, higher translucent fillrate, and more main RAM
@@P_D-px6iv Did you know the dreamcast had a oficial cable where most games could do 420p soo de image is very clear in newer tvs on the other hand the most of ps2 games wouldnt go pass 240p. So yes dc had better image quality by default
@@pedronicolau9246 The PlayStation 2 can natively output video resolutions on SDTV and HDTV from 480i to 480p, and some games, such as Gran Turismo 4 and Tourist Trophy, are known to support up-scaled 1080i resolution using any of the following standards: composite video (480i), S-Video (480i), RGB (480i/p), or VGA (for progressive scan games) Sony also released official component cables for the system which support upto 1080i 16:9
@@P_D-px6ivDreamcast had progressive 480p as standard, 16:9 was more a matter of what aspect ratio the game rendered at. There are games with 16:9 support. Rayman 2 being one I can think of. (although, keep in mind that 16:9 was very uncommon during the time period when the DC was active. I believe more games would get released with 16:9 if the console continued to live on into the 6th generation). It's not like it couldn't do 16:9. Ultimately the PS2 was a flickering interlaced mess on SDTVs with it's 480i, which was really the only way people gamed on the consoles. That's the reason why the video output was poor in comparison. On SDTVs the Dreamcast rendered at 480p internally, but had an output of 720x240. Removing the interlacing issues. however, every even line was then blended with every odd line causing the image to get Super Sampled, hence the amazing AA and non-flickering output, looking superior to the PS2. The PS2 might support a lot of different resolutions, but ultimately. People played on SDTVs with flickering and lack of AA being a part of that experience.
@PixelShade 99% of dreamcast games were 240p not 480p PS2 had more 480p games than Dreamcast PS2 wasn't necessarily meant for SDTV, Sony had high hopes EDTV's would take-off which is what the PS2 supports and plays on best
Thanks for letting me know about the hall effect sensors and for the teardown! I definitely agree that the Dreamcast was way ahead of its time. DVD playback or anything like that wouldn't have helped though (price increase on the console for one). Sega sealed their grave with all the past failures and abandoned products so the public didn't trust them. The 32X, Sega CD, Saturn (outside of JP), etc. Sega did everything right with the Dreamcast, in the same way that Nintendo turned everything around with the Nintendo Switch. Unfortunately Sega didn't have nearly the savings that Nintendo did, as you said. Nintendo owning the handheld market also helped a ton with that Wii U slump.
Saturn was mainly a screwup in the west, but did much better in Japan. They shouldn't have killed it off early, leaving US with a gap and overlapping the still viable Saturn in Japan. Also, pricing DC at $200 instead of $250 tanked their profits even more.
When it comes to hardware, I compare SEGA’s innovation to apple’s. They’re always ahead of other companies with new ideas. I’m pretty sure if Dreamcast succeeded or had DVD player. Gaming would’ve look very different today.
There is nothing innovated that I can think of that is made by Apple other than high price and copying from other brands while Sega has been making early VR headset in the 90th
I wouldn't be so sure. The Xbox was basically the successor to the Dreamcast, Sega even signed an exclusive deal with Microsoft. Not to mention the original Dreamcast was designed with the help of Microsoft.
Now that you mentioned this. Yeah, I still have my dreamcast and I played the hell out of it. Unreal Tournament, Quake 3, Shenmue 1 and 2, Project Justice, The House of the Dead 2 etc. I just checked it again 3 hours ago and it still works and stick drift whatsoever after all these years. Dreamcast, you're the best
It would be interesting to compare how hall effect analog sticks compare to the standard sticks in terms of precision. Maybe there's other reasons to why it hasn't become the standard too, like a patented design by Sega (like the Nintendo D-Pad is) or other thing. It would be a very interesting Technology Connections video.
correction: the nintendo D-pad patent has expired already, and even when it was in effect it was so fuckin overly specific that it didn't apply to webbed D-pads as in SEGA's controllers, or inset D-pads as in the playstation controllers
Worth noting that the N64 doesn't have stick drift either (though it has other shortcomings) as it uses 2 optical encoders - the optical switches and the stick mechanism are also independent of each other.
Wow this is amazing, never knew 😲 Loved my Dreamcast, was always telling people "it's better graphics than the PS2, and cheap enough to buy a separate DVD player and cost no more" I wonder if you could modify a playststion controller to work with that 🤔
I think the reason is fairly simple, at the scale of miniaturization back then, carbon pads were perfectly fine, they were rated for several thousands of hours of use. Given that drift is a function inversely proportional to the number of rated hours of use, controllers that failed early were "manufacturing defects" and simply got replaced via warranty. With each generation being more and more compact, the pads have gotten significantly smaller, and along with that, much less resilient. Keep in mind controllers (and almost every other HID ever) are consumables, even the rubber membranes in the buttons or the spring in those hall effect sensor joysticks have a limited lifespan. The problem here is that as joysticks became smaller and smaller, their lifespan drastically reduced compared to every other component.
there is also the issue that at the exact same time, the sensor's got more precise. a drift that would not be noticable in a GC era controller would definetly be in a modern one. the biggest thing is that dead zones are much smaller these days...
You made the exact point regarding the demise of the SEGA DreamCast: DVD playback/drive from launch, and the overwhelming hype/war-chest of Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft combined against them. Had a second-generation follow-up to the SDC been availed with a built-in DVD drive, and higher CPU/GPU specifications, assuming SEGA had survived the console wars, and Microsoft had never been a player to begin with, then surely, we'd be playing a new iteration of Daytona USA right now. Albeit the XBOX is spiritually a neo SEGA DreamCast, if you recall the Microsoft Windows CE involvement with the original SDC alternate OS system 'option', and Microsoft wanting to claim a stake in the extremely competitive videogame industry during the transition period the late 1990's and early 2000's, long after the company's MSX ventures in Japan during the 1980's left a small impression. Panzer Dragoon Orta might very well have been upon a SEGA XBOX type of arrangement if SEGA had stayed in the game. I also recall SEGA as being very optimistic and enthusiastic regarding hardware power/specs throughout the company's hardware 1st party era. So, a SEGA XBOX 360 could've very well been a partnership in an alternate reality as well, and very much a powerful SEGA system of the mid 2000's console era. Whilst on the mention of SEGA IPs, it stuns me as to why SEGA still hasn't officially availed the original (MODEL 2 ARCADE) House of the Dead as at the very least, a digital download (not to be confused with the recent HotD reimagined software release) or as a compilation of HotD arcade wares in physical form. Further still, the newest Daytona arcade reboot (technically Daytona USA 3???) hasn't been availed as a console release yet remains an arcade exclusive fixture, the Afterburner SEGA Lindburgh arcade version 'Climax' being taken off the digital sales availability charts years ago, the light gun shooter Transformers arcade games (based upon the movie versions of the same name) that could've been easily ported to the Wii/U, the vast catalog of SEGA DreamCast games that have yet to be availed via compilations (Capcom's PowerStone series, Cannon Spike, and Tech Romancer), and the 32X versions of Afterburner and Space Harrier missing from the MD/Genesis 2 mini games list (though Space Harrier I & II running @60fps as bonus titles sure are close enough!), and the fact that the so-called 'remastered' ports of the SEGA Titan/STV games Cotton Boomerang/2 + Guardian Force weren't tweaked enough to reduce the control lag significantly.... all the aforementioned decisions call into question what SEGA is and isn't doing correctly as of late. The SDC versions of Dynamite Cop (a remastered version of the original MODEL 2 arcade game running at a higher resolution w/enhanced texture work) are still a fun arcade classic to play, yet I don't even see it available as a digital title for purchase anywhere, along with Fighting Vipers 2, and a complete version of Virtua Fighter 3 TB in full MODEL 3 arcade form at home. One can only play through versions of Judgement + Sequel, the Yakuza games, etc., in order to unlock various SEGA Model 2 + SEGA System 16, 32 arcade titles and SEGA IP classics, before I finally start demanding a real SEGA Arcade Collection (I don't count the SEGA Astro City Arcade mini as a general collection, but rather a niche collectible for gamers like me). Yeah, SEGA doesn't really have large sums of investment capital for grandiose projects, but the company has such a rich legacy of arcade IPs to choose from. At least Virtual On OT is still available as a digital purchase.... yet the classic gamers demand further, and better allotment of SEGA IPs NOW. Sorry for the SEGA enthused rant. :v ~ "SEGA!!"
It's not just the controller; if you've ever taken apart a Dreamcast, the _whole thing_ is _extremely_ modular. Their previous two consoles - the 32X and the Saturn - had all sorts of finicky soldered connections and large, complex boards that were hard to take apart and service; I think they _massively_ over-corrected with the Dreamcast. Everything inside comes apart either with sockets or surprisingly sturdy detachable ribbon cables. If I had access to the parts, I could probably fix almost anything on it myself, no soldering required. Had to be very cheap to assemble, too!
The Dualshock 2 controller for the PS2 was the first time I experienced controller drift, I would just move the stick around real fast to remedy it, I think the problem started when they started making analog sticks that press down.
recently got myself a dreamcast, I was trying to find info as to why the dreamcast stick felt so great after 20 years. Which led me here to this vid, thx it was very informative.
I saw the AVGN wrap the controller cable to the top. He actually held the controller upside down at first because of the odd cable. I like how he shrugs afterwards. Sonic Adventures is a great game. 8:41 That's ridiculous. How can a video company do that? We already have flying cars, but you need to be rich and have a pilot's license to even use them which is why we probably don't see them.
A lot of people seem to wonder why the Dreamcast failed and what they could have done to succeed. The reality is they lost before they even started. After the failure of Saturn the Playstation took over the market and no one cared about Sega anymore. Some say including a DVD drive could have saved it, but realistically Sega couldn't afford the financial risk of selling the Dreamcast at a loss to be competitive with Playstation. And consider how the Gamecube which came out later did fine without DVD. The one thing I think they could have done to succeed is to launch a year earlier, but they would need a solid launch lineup of games too which would have required all Sega's different divisions to work together. Sadly teamwork is Sega's weakness
Dreamcast's only serious problem was what came before it: Sega CD, Sega 32X and Saturn (Saturn was great but had problems.) But Dreamcast's biggest problem? Sega itself... it got the Dreamcast "right", but so much before wrong. God bless you, Dreamcast, my favorite console!
Very interesting fact. One more point to the crédit of Sega. I've already had drifting issues with a PS4 chinese gamepad but I was far from thinking the Dreamcast had the solution 23 years ago. Thanks to you, now I love this console even more.
As someone in the Smash melee community and the fact that this tech is a huge step up on our custom controlers for reliability its a really a shock that this stuff is 20 years old and probably could have been on the gamecube in the first place.
Moreso than drift, the issue that I encounter most in analog sticks is the loss of that springiness that you demonstrated just before the teardown. As much as I love about the DualShock 2, I've had to go through so many because the sticks get so loose in the center -- the readings they give are still fine, they just never return all the way to origin, and I keep having to grow the deadzone larger and larger to be able to use them. Is that also something that Hall Effect analog sticks address? Or is it just a separate-but-correlated issue with using cheaper parts? At the very least, even if the spring would eventually wear out, replacing *just the spring* looks like it'd be incredibly easy in the DC controller...looking at the DS2, the whole stick unit is enclosed in a box, and I'm not sure I could even get at any springs in it without breaking something.
I wasn’t aware that this was how it worked. That is a pretty sweet design. Current Gen… no one’s immune from “stick issues”. It’s the input that gets hammered the most, and with secondary functions like press thumb stick in to crouch… some games have you smashing the sticks constantly. Perhaps this design would NOT allow for that secondary press function as well? Or maybe it could be coded for in a firmware update. IE… magnets sense super close proximity on all 4 sensors and we would register that as a press.
something i immediately noticed is how easy this controller looks to repair. phillips head screws, singular large board, very few pieces, that’s so cool
If we ever get those RetroBit Dreamcast Controllers that got announced years ago i hope they look and work like this on the inside.
I'd say that this stick is probably very difficult to fix if it starts giving false readings.
If the stick itself shears, it will be easy to replace, but in order to fix the sensor, you would need to solder new hall effect sensors to the board, which is by no means easy for the average person.
I think the largest advantage of this design is its inherent durability, rather than the repairability.
Honestly the more I learn about Sega the more I realize how consumer-friendly they are in comparison with their competitors, even back in the day
basically you can print your own pieces to repair it if it brokes
Even buttons have 3 offset notches so you can't put them upside down during the assembly. That thing is so thought out.
I've taken apart the Saturn's Arcade Racer wheel and noticed that it, too, had no potentiometer or any physical parts rubbing together like other racing wheels of that era. It rather had a ring rotating by a sensor that read the grooves that were cut out of the ring. Possibly some magnetism at work here as well. SEGA apparently had some genius hardware engineers.
They had the same people working on arcade hardware, where durability is paramount.
Is not genious engineers... Is just how most industrial sticks \ controls worked outside the gaming industry. Remember that these type of control inputs where invented outside of videogames.
If the grooves were cut all the way through, it most likely used a (led) emitter, and a sensor to count how many of the grooves had passed by. Same way old ball mice worked, and scroll wheels. The machining centers where I work also track the axes that way, albeit with a slightly different shutter setup.
@@3800scgp That sounds right. It did look like the sensor body had a light on it as well. Cool thx.
You're thinking rotary encoder, which is what the N64 stick used, albeit made of plastic with a high tension spring which made it eat itself; buuuut that's a whole other story.
The Dreamcast didn't fail us, we failed the Dreamcast.
No we didn't fail the Dreamcast, Sega failed the Dreamcast.
@@DandySlayer13 I'm just having a bit of a joke mate. No need to take life so seriously.
@@maverick85 I know I was adding to it but it was still factual lol.
@@DandySlayer13 SEGA of Japan failed the Dreamcast.
@@DandySlayer13 oh sorry! Yeah you're right.
Joystick drift is something that just absolutely drives me nuts. Having it resolved decades ago just makes it all the more awful.
Yeah, only a few months after buying my PS4 I had to send in the controller for "repair" because of drift on the left stick. Talk about total B.S.
I got a nintendo switch, and less than a month later the left stick couldnt stop drifting, and after 4 months my ps5 controller couldnt stop drifting. It's the worst feeling in the universe. God Bless the Dreamcast
This is intentional, to promote after marlet value on their products. There is no other reason not to make a controller with a minimum 25 year lifespan. My original Xbox controllers work perfect, so does all of my N64. Due to joystick drift, I've gone through 8 360 controllers, 4 PS4 Dualshocks, 1 PS5 Dualsense just a few months after opening it which was before they revamped their joystick build which is still inferior to what could be made now.
(I still love all my consoles, but this intentional underutilized design of controllers is unacceptable and I wish more gamers were critical about this to force companies to give us a solid, competent product.)
@@DANRYXI hope Hall efect joysticks would become such a trend that the 3 Big videogame companies would integrate them to the current controllers but in a version 2.0, or at least with the 10th consolé generation
Stick drift is probably intentionally left in because if you have stock drifting issues, you can sell more controllers.
I still have the same four Dreamcast controllers that I’ve had for decades… no drift. I guess this is one of those situations where you say… They don’t make things like they used to.
For comparison sake… I’ve had a PS5 since launch and have already had to replace my DualSense twice, because of drift.
@Super Sharp Shooter That’s the case some of the time, but then there’s other situations where a product just isn’t built well enough for the long term. Such as with the DualSense and also the Joy-Con, both are clearly not built to last.
@Super Sharp Shooter nah I'm on my 4th joy con. I take care of em well. Clean, not everysed, not being thrown or dropped. It's the stick, not me. The old wii nunchuck still works despite wayyyy more use
I think joy con drift is like the red ring for Nintendo. its a problem thats worse than normal but I don't think its a big problem of the industry as a whole.
@Super Sharp Shooter I had to change my Xbox controller that came with my series x because drift and i take really good care of my stuff. But it is not as bad as the switch controller, geez that is a bad controller!
Wow, Sega was the best. I bought my Dreamcast that I currently have on day one, 9/9/99, and I had no idea the analog controller used this technology. My mind is blown. Thanks Spawnwave!!
Have you ever created a self-boot of a translated Japan-only title? I actually have a disc somewhere with an English-translated version of Super Street Fighter II Turbo for Dreamcast, which was for the longest time the most accurate port, on a nice printed (I remember putting in the code on the printer to unlock printing on discs) CD-R. One version (printed in a different color) even had the soundtrack swapped out for the 3D0's remade music. You even got to play the CPU version of Akuma, as well as an even _more_ over-the-top version that got the Raging Demon as a Super (but all specials only gave minimal meter for doing).
Did the price had a bunch of 9s as well? 😂
9/9/99, what a time to be alive 1,00000000x better than 2/2/22
@@tynao2029 Lol. That's the truth.
Too bad it was released that much later compared to Japan where it arrived in late 1998.
I've always thought the dreamcast analogue stick felt alot tighter and more accurate than anything else, explains why it feels soo good to play games with it, that and the size makes it a joy to hold
In what world? It was super loose and cheap
@@Zinkolo feels smooth to me, i just went and felt one
it helped that it had a good amount of travel
@@Zinkolo even if they were cheaply made they still work 20 years later like they did on day 1 meanwhile ps4 and 5 controllers have stick drift out of the box for 60$ a pop, it’s ridiculous
what is not as well known is, early sixasis ps3 controller and xbox duke controllers had hall effect sticks aw well just like the dreamcast before switching to regular sticks.
I still miss the Dreamcast and its beautiful startup. The controller was way ahead of its time too.
For me there were two main problems with the controller, no second stick(understandable why they did that at the time, but still), and where the cord connected. Yes, I know you can wrap the cord around to that slot on the back, but it still felt weird.
The d pad was one of the best ever.
@@Cerebrum123 I would also say the controller needed Either an extra set of shoulder buttons or they should have kept the 6 button layout like on the Saturn 3D controller
@@HollowRick The shoulder buttons definitely would have been helpful but that was less frustrating for me personally. They actually did have other controllers that had a six-button layout but those were more expensive. I'm guessing the default one just didn't have those to cut down costs.
I think other companies haven't followed this trend 'cause these sensors might be more expensive and companies always charged a lot for new controllers so if it breaks they can sell more
Definitely some truth there. I'm astounded at how expensive controllers are now compared to a decade ago.
With drone controllers, a controller that used to use potentiometers, recently released with hall effect sensors. It had a markup of just $20. For the console industry that sells a lot more controllers, they'd probably have better economies of scale, meaning if should be even less of a markup. Console industry is just keeping it cheap to sell more when they break. It's actually a common business practice.
That has been the trend for so many years. I remember our philip black and white TV lasting well into the 2000s. And it was the only tv in the whole village when we bought it. Now there is a trend to increase business and keep on moving units as the production is a lot more rampant nowadays. People used to prefer things actually made in Japan back then. Chinese goods were simply not durable back then.
They've actually figured out how to use less expensive components in controllers over the years, so it doesn't really make sense that they have become so much more expensive. I believe spare Dreamcast controllers were like $40-$50.
Granted, some newer controllers have touch pads, accelerometers and gyroscopes, most manufacturing methods (molding, part procurement, etc.) have become less expensive.
@@lamario
The most common areas of failure in modern controllers are either joysticks or triggers/shoulder buttons. The trigger/shoulder buttons are typically because they are using even in things like the dual sense since are those little lynch pins that can easily wear out and fail. Meanwhile Nintendo,Sony and Microsoft all use those ALPS analog stick parts. Prone to the exact same issues and incredibly cheap.
Obviously, Sega knows how to make a joystick. After all, they were the only console maker (after the exit of Atari) with years of experience in the Arcade business. Arcade machines take a lot of abuse, so it better not be too fragile.
People who owned Sega consoles knew their controllers were the best. The problem was convincing the masses who only ever played with a Playstation controller and had grown used to its inadequacies. Talk of who had the best controller just wasn’t much of a thing in the early 2000’s when everyone was obsessed with graphics.
It would be interesting if they did third part controllers for the current systems.
it was all about the bits and polygon count. Dreamcast was 128 bit.
Playstation controllers are really bad.
@@muesonline I hate the built in battery but other than that the PS5 controller is decent.
PS2's graphics weren't even as clean. They often relied on stupid tricks like interlacing to get a little more performance out of it. But Dreamcast was always full framed with VGA support which holds up well to this day on modern LED/LCD TV's or monitors. Also I really disliked the PlayStation controllers - especially their stupid separated D-pads which ripped my thumbs up in fighting games! And Dreamcast controllers were very affordable back then - like $20 new, and I got 3 on clearance for only $5 each back in the day!
I think the wildest thing is how that stick isn't even soldered down. That's cool as hell.
thats how arcade stuff was back in the day. and since sega made arcade stuff they adopted it to their home systems
The same can be said for the latest revision of the GameCube controller, where the stick is held on by screws instead of solder points.
@@pleasedontwatchthese9593 Funny, the easiest sticks to replace never need replacing
@@NinjaMario02 Wait really, which revision?
@@VinnytotheK It's listed as T3 stickboxes that don't use the solder points, and that revision has been around since around 2003.
I’ve been using the same Dreamcast Controller for my entire life and it still holds up well and feels perfectly. No issues at all.
Same. We were spoiled to think that would remain the norm I guess.
Weird that he didn't mention the triggers are also hall sensors. Current xbox controllers use the same technique for the triggers. Hopefully they all start to use hall sensors soon.
Why would they make a controller that lasts a long time?
@@iou0 i'm pretty sure they would work another limitation somewhere in there then. Probably the battery or dodgy firmware update.
3rd party companies maybe Gulikit has their own patent one but hoping 8bitdo will utilize it in the future. But Sony, Nintendo, & Microsoft they ain't going to do it ever due to losing profits if idiots like us just keep buying their expensive controllers everytime it has issues.
@@nexusprime2487 thing is DS Edge's modular design might be the pandora's box to this entire 1st party controller debacle
@@edwardtan1354 I don't know, controllers such as the Astro C40 and Thrustmaster e-swap pro controller also have a similar design of switching the sticks and they to still have stick drift issues overtime.
I too miss Sega being in the hardware race. I put all my eggs in the Dreamcast basket.
I bought over 50 games for it and had 4 controllers and 4 vmus and all the manuals. It was a awesome system with lots of fun games.
I wonder if it had a DVD drive and played DVDs, if it would have stuck around a few more years.
I'm sure there was lots of games in development when Sega said Yoink! And pulled the plug.
These days I play Dreamcast on barocera and it's amazing!
No the simple fact is Sega went bankrupt due to Sega of America selling Dreamcasts $50 below cost. The theory was they would make their money back on games and they probably would of in a few years but the Dreamcast literally sold Sega into bankruptcy. Perhaps Sega would of made enough money to crest the profit wave if they had some anti piracy measures for the system but they didn't and piracy was a major issue as anyone with a CD burner could copy or download games . A DVD drive might of helped sell more systems and aided system longevity but it couldn't help with Sega of America decision to sell systems at a loss while fully embracing a model of only profiting on software but not protect ing that software. Microsoft did something similar on their profit model with the Xbox and 360 but Sega didn't have the near bottomless pockets to pull it off like Microsoft did later and Microsoft also had anti-pirate measures in place.
@@tsiefhtes Dreamcast's anti-piracy WAS the Yamaha GD-Rom discs. Sega went to Yamaha and asked them to make a proprietary type of disk media LIKE a CD-ROM, but one that couldn't be copied. Yamaha's answer was the GD-ROM which is what all Dreamcast games were released on. Problem was: It didn't take long at all for the hackers to figure it out. I was in the Dreamcast pirating scene very early on, and at first, you had to have a "boot disk" that would surpass the code of the GD-ROM, then you open the tray, insert the copied game, close the tray, and viola! The game would boot. Shortly after that they learned how to write the "boot disk" code onto the TOC of every pirated DC game and you no longer even needed the "boot disk". It became the easiest console to pirate games on.
Batocera is amazing.
IDK why Hall sensors aren't just the default. I can't imagine they're saving that much money, since they're in literally in every brushless DC motor. Then again, if they made the controllers more reliable, they couldn't charge you $70-$100 for a new one every two years.
im guessing its space. that thing looks as tick as the joy con its self. You have to have some kind of physical gap and the magnet cant be too close or all the senors will see the same thing
Typical sticks work with mechanical potentiometers which are at cheapest just some metallic/graphite film deposited on PCB which a stylus slides on. Hall effect requires slightly more complex components for measuring magnetic fields. And to corporations every fraction of a cent counts.
It seems PS Vita OLED model used hall effect sensors for analog inputs but later model changed it with carbon contacts (They are literally potentiometers)
I guess it is cheaper option for manufacturers ?
@@andyo1872 this. The Vita is smaller and uses them
With the exception of the Switch Pro controller, every new input device seems to be made with really cheap parts. My Pro and GC controller feel as good as new after 5 years, meanwhile I had to repair a set of Joycon due to drift, I had to replace an Xbox One controller cause the Y button stopped working after 1,5 years and right now I'm replacing a series X controllers after 4 months, cause R1 stopped working. Also my girlfriends Xbox One controllers both got stick drift and a button issue, even though she didn't play that often.
The Dreamcast was the first system I ever bought, with my own money anyways. I'll never forget the first time I saw Soul Calibur. What an amazing system for it's time!
After that I bought an Xbox at launch, which was even more awesome because of all the Dreamcast sequels!
Yeah, Sad to see where Xbox is now. No exclusive games just backwards compatibility living off past success.
@@ebenezerspludge8369 ? Neither system has that many exclusives, what u mean lol? They're both in the same boat, although I'd have to give the edge to Xbox with what's on the horizon. Way more interested in Bethesda games than Tekken, which is the only Sony exclusive I can think of (and even that is not confirmed)
@@DarkReturns1 Sony has way more exclusives on PS5. I'm just going to shout off the games I own. Ratchet and clank, Demon Souls, The pathless, Horizon Forbidden west, Returnal, Spider Man, Astros Playroom, Deathloop, Sackboy, Ghostwire. Kena and Sifu. All great games. The Xbox / Bethesda merger isn't complete but even when it is I'll be buying those games on PC if by some miracle they aren't trash. What was the last Bethesda game that was great? Skyrim in 2011! I once was an Xbox fan but they are pointless now. Look at all the great games coming out on PS5. A wolveriene game, God of War, Spiderman 2 and Tekken 8 not to mention the next uncharted, That Starwars game, Street Fighter and their VR head set. You tell me what I should be excited for on Xbox. Maybe I'm missing something.
@@DarkReturns1 Their are also other exclusives I didn't mention because I don't own them. Gran Turismo 7, Godfall and Destruction Allstars to name a few. The last time I turned on my Xbox was last year for Forza 5. Great game but that' all I use it for.
@@ebenezerspludge8369 half of those or more aren't PS5 exclusives... I'm not gonna tell you what games you should like lol, to each their own. But the argument about "Xbox Series X has no exclusives" is so silly because neither systems have alot of exclusives right now.
If you have a last gen console or a PC there's not much of a point in owning a PS5 or XSX imo
Sega has always been super innovative and pushing the boundaries. Back in the '80s the Sega Master system here in the US had active shutter 3D glasses for a couple of their 3D games something that most people wouldn't have in their own home until the 3D glasses craze for TVs hit about 6 years ago.
3D glasses, VR back then would have been interesting if it did come out. Even their 3DS use of 3D seems pretty good. Sega doing their own thing was always cool to see with their peripherals even if they sometimes didn't go well. They were always interesting to seek out when researching.
That and 3D movies have been in and out for years before 2010 but either way for games it was an interesting time doing stuff back then and how much holds up or is still crazy to think about Mercury tilt switch motion controls even as third party controllers. I can only go off research having never experienced them myself.
NES also had these 3D glasses (well the Famicom did)
@@suntannedduck2388 Sega was actually working on a VR headset for the Mega Drive.
It was cancelled literally weeks before release, units were even made but were scrapped.
So cool to see this! I am currently equipping hall effect sensors in an industrial application for monitoring fan speeds, and it's really cool to see the tech was applied to a controller 20 years ago!
The Dreamcast controller is so unique. I’ll never forget how amazing it felt in your hands.
I put a concave stick cap on my Dreamcast controller and it feels perfect.
The convex surface and rough plastic is my only complaint with it. I haven’t ever even had trigger problems with mine.
I have never understood why convex style sticks are even a thing. The old Dualshock sticks were the worst offender, but any convex stick is just terrible design imo. Concave is so much more pleasant toplay with.
@@leandervr Interestingly the Sega Saturn 3D controller had a concave stick. It even had a circular loop inside for better grip similar to modern controllers.
Very informative, thank you for bringing more light back on the Sega Dreamcast. Such an underrated system.
I'm mixed about the dream cast. It was great for its time but i also think it came out too soon. The PS2, GC and Xbox are still really great systems that I would take over the Dreamcast but I don't think the Dreamcast sucks.
After the Nintendo Switch the Dreamcast is my favorite system. It was my first and last Sega console.
@@pleasedontwatchthese9593 i think piracy had a big effect on it, I remember it being rampant very quickly
@@keithmichael112 Sega made a watershed of mistakes but Piracy doesn’t matter if nobody buys the system.
Just look at the GameCube or N64 and it’s piracy prevention actually hurt it’s sales and game library.
The Dreamcast just needed system sellers and Shenmue was financially a disaster while SA2 came out too late.
Had the Dreamcast lasted a third year, GTA3 would probably have been a console exclusive which would have moved units.
Hall Effect sensors have been big in flight sim joysticks for years, largely because they are both very precise and don't wear out.
I think they took hold earlier there because it ended up being such a niche market serviced by enthusiasts, so it was easier to justify in a $200-$300+ joystick.
The N64 also had a very reliable way for reading x and y axis, it used the same optic wheel sensing that you would find in a ball mouse. The problem with the n64 sticks however was the piss poor mechanical side of it, in which there was a lot of friction, and with it a lot of wear on the small plastic components
Not to mention Nintendo's favorite mechanic on the N64 was to have you rotate the stick as fast as you can, no doubt putting a lot of excess wear on it.
also, that sensor isn't self-calibrating, which is always fun (except not)
The Dreamcast was an amazing design. It truly was the first modern console. The company burned through all their good will (with both consumers and developers) and didn't have the financial backbone to push the console forward. For the Dreamcast to succeed, not only did Sega need more money, the 32x shouldn't have happened and the Saturn launch was executed better and territories outside of Japan would had better support.
32X wasn't such a bad idea. The bad idea was to release it just months before the Saturn. In Japan it was even released AFTER the Saturn.
Nah, it was just Sony's piracy that killed it. Once the entire Dreamcast library was available online overnight, the dev support died instantly
@@tynao2029 Not sure how much piracy killed the Dreamcast. Think about it, this was late 90s, people were still running dial up and upload and download speeds were in kbps. I highly doubt the typical person would feasibly be able to download or upload Dreamcast games en masse at that time.
@@dhgmrz17 Everyone who knows anything about gaming knows piracy killed the Dreamcast. Dreamcast released 9/9/99, by the time most of its games came out, it was the 2000s. PS2 didn't release until 10/26/2000, more than a year later. All up until release, Sony did everything they could to host Torrents and upload the games onto the internet. DSL and Broadband was available and pretty widespread. Even on 56k with a torrent, you could easily download games over a day or two. Piracy killed the Dreamcast. And it was all by an evil company with an even crappier product, the PS2. Sure, the PS2 was good, but it was no Dreamcast.
@@tynao2029 Hold on, where did you get the information that Sony hosted torrents and uploaded Dreamcast games to the web? I have never heard anything like that before.
The real question is, can we design a control stick like that AND still push it like a button?
It is possible to make a stick with hall effect sensors and a push button, gulikit makes a controller like that and sells replacement steam deck stick modules with that style of stick, although the design is much more similar to potentiometer joysticks than the dreamcast one, it uses a nearly identical stick box but replaces the potentiometers with a pair of rotational hall effect sensors. They aren't drop in replacements, although it may be possible for them or a modder to make a flex pcb with a microcontroller and digitally controllable potentiometers that would allow you to remove the old stick, solder the flex on top of the board, then solder one of their sticks on top of the flex to fix controllers using standard potentiometer joysticks, although they don't sell their hall effect sticks individually and aren't currently offering those. (They also sell replacement switch compatible sticks, but those are potentiometer based sticks, not hall effect)
it is possible, the current potentiometer based sticks dont actually have the click button built-in, the click button is merely a microswitch button placed near the potentiometer.
Theoretically, if they are using 4 hall effect sensors already, then pushing down on the stick would be visible to the sensors as an increase in the magnetic field on all 4. It would be a bit harder as the stick was moved to the extents of the directions. I'm sure it would be possible to map the effect though and program the software accordingly.
Yes. Very easily
I hate the push button of the analog...
Also the Dreamcast’s unique stick is also part of the reason why rail grinding is broken in every version of SA2 released on other consoles, since it doesn’t account for the different analog sticks used by other consoles
Dreamcast had my all time favorite controller. It just felt right in my hand and the VMU was pretty cool. I dont know if the design of the stick can be scaled down to the size of a joycon but it would be really nice.
I liked the VMU and the mini games you could toss on there.
The analog joystick was amazing.
The analog joystick had 0 drift and was ultra responsive. 🙂
The only thing missing from the Dreamcast controller is a second analog stick.
@@G360LIVE and L3/R3 buttons and a second pair of shoulder buttons
@@G360LIVE Last time I played Dreamcast I was literally reaching for a right joystick with my right thumb, only to realize "wait, that didn't exist yet" 😂
I also loved the Dreamcast controller, but I can admit...that D-pad would mangle your thumb if you were into fighting games at all. I would love a modern clone of the controller with bluetooth, second analog, and shoulder buttons.
I really like videos like this one. Especially since I've been obsessed with Dreamcast lately, I've played it back then, but I've never owned it. It was such a cool system.
I loved my Dreamcast, was an awesome system for the time. The controllers also felt really good in my hands, very comfortable to hold. I do agree with the cable coming out the back, I felt that was dumb but I could see why they did it, where else are you going to put the cable with the VMU's being where they are. But the system did have some really good games on it.
it's a non-issue, anyone who has a Dreamcast controller knows there's a cable holder under the VMU to reroute the cable back to the top
Yet another reason I want to see the "If Sega won" timeline. the other being the 6 face button layout. Gimme 2 sticks, 2 bumpers, a d-pad, and 6 face... instead of 4 face 2 stick clicks
Maybe I've been lucky, but I never had to deal with drift in my 30 years of gaming...until the Switch. Though, it doesn't surprise to see Sega implement this decades before the rest. They, like Sony in the mid 00s, were way ahead of the curve.
Also, around 30 years of gaming, and almost the same situation, I only have had drifting problems with 2 consoles, the PSVita (long after I bought it, and many falls letters) and my Switch, soon after I bought it and treated it really well.
I miss the days when it was just because someone was holding the stick when we plugged them in, and all you had to do to fix it was unplug the controller.
I have had problems with dead zones on analog controllers since forever. but im guessing now with it being built into the switch light and with controllers being so pricey people care now.
I heard that even Sony did Hall Effect sensors on certain PS3 controller variants. And I think the Sega Saturn 3D pad was rocking Hall Effect sensors even earlier than Dreamcast, but obviously it was an optional accessory at the time.
I think I read that Dreamcast costcutting meant that later controller variants used the friction based potentiometers, too.
Then you have not tried enough joystick controllers. And joystick hasn't been around for 30 years, so have you been smoking weed?
One of the first controllers I repaired. Always helped to put a little lubricant under the ball part which houses the magnet. Also I think I trimmed the spring to have smoother movement. Great controller built very solid.
The Dreamcast is still 1 of the best consoles of all time.
Potentiometers (apply voltage at one end, ground at the other, wiper returns voltage anywhere in-between) can work fine as long as the wiper readout circuit has high enough input impedance that dust getting between the wiper and track won't affect the voltage much. The biggest problem with modern cost-reduced-to-hell analog sticks such as the JoyCons is their use of variable resistors (pass a known current through the wiper to ground, whatever voltage you get is the position) instead, which is orders of magnitude more susceptible to getting messed up by the tiniest bit of dust getting in the wiper's way.
The problem is wear of the carbon traces.
@@FindecanorNotGmail For a properly made potentiometer and sense circuit, that would be a heck of a lot of mileage before causing problems. Doesn't help that modern joystick designs try to cram the entire analog range in 2-3mm of wiper travel instead of ~20mm in older-school stuff like the DS2.
SONY did Hall Effect based Sticks with PS3 Controllers (Prior to A1 Revision).
Recognizable with the 4 pins for the "Potentiometer" (looking thing).
problem is, their approach didn't really solve the issue. they kinda "retrofit" them in ordinary thumbsticks mechanic which has more parts, smaller, and more prone to wear compared to a DC controller. So even if you remove pots friction, that design tends to get loose and thumbstick could rest past the deadzone and register unwanted inputs in some games. Not nearly as bad as the joycon drift, but it's still a step backward from Sega's late 90s design to this day!
I still have my original Dreamcast. One of my favorite systems with a good library! I recently bought a Japanese Sega Saturn 🪐 Been collecting those games to.
Love the MGS2 reference lol but I love the Dreamcast even more. Easily the best non-hybrid home console ever made!!! I still have mine, just gotta replace the laser
I love the simplicity and repairabilty of the design, I get unreasonably angry at products designed to fail quickly.
Companies should be fined per unit for making products with intentionally bad designs, with higher fines the shittier it is.
These fines would go towards paying for recycling, landfill impact, and the loss of the finite resources tied up in an utter piece of shit.
Only heard of stick drift in recent years (with Vita and Switch), I don't recall that being an issue as severe as now.
They don't make them as they used to, seems the statement is true after all.
I got a set of Joycon and 2 barely used Xbox One controllers with stick drift, not to mention a series X controller where R1 stopped working after only 4 months, it's ridiculous. Before that era, I didn't even know stick drift could be an issue. All of my old GC, Wii, PS2 controllers etc. worked for years and the ones I didn't sell still do.
N64 controllers could get drift easily as well but tended to happen more often to 3rd party controllers.
Small joysticks are much, much more susceptible to drifting, apparently the Index controllers also suffer a lot because of its small joysticks.
It's more of an issue now because all console manufacturers get their analog sticks from the same factories in China. It's cheaply made junk designed to be sold for as little money as possible. I'm sure Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft love these cheap components, since it lets them cobble a controller together for less money while still charging 60+ for each one.
As a consumer, you're expected to just sigh, and go to the store to purchase a new one when it breaks.
Never experienced it till the XboxOne/ps4/switch generation. My 20 year old OG Xbox controllers still work great no drift. Same with my ps2 and GameCube controllers. My 360 controllers have mostly been great. Had one with drift tho. Same with ps3. Where as Xbox one and ps4 most controller get it after about 6 months
Honestly I wish Sega would go back to hardware manufacturing. We need more competition in the gaming industry
They kinda are just not in the way you're thinking lol
They seem to be focused on releasing mini versions of their past consoles such as the upcoming Genesis 2 mini
i forgot about this, i took apart my late model sega (dc/saturn} controllers for basic cleaning and maintenance when i first got them and was surprised to find a totally unfamiliar stick mechanism, wasnt entirely sure what it was at first but i came to the conclusion it was some sort of proximity sensor and most likely magnet based, the only real point of concern for the controllers wearing out is the cables, everything else is either a non issue or simple to drop in a replacement
Nintendo: *Takes notes profusely.*
SEGA always had good software and solid hardware.
32X would like a word, lol.
Dreamcast was ahead of its time just was overlooked. First game system to play online with other players. I didn’t have one on the 90’s as a kid but I bought one off eBay for 30$ in 2014. I love the Dreamcast so much I bought a dreamcon control so worth it for me.
Once you get very basic soldering skills it's super easy to pop off the potentiometers with a soldering iron in seconds but you shouldn't have to learn how to solder in order to fix your controller you shouldn't have to fix your controller in the first place especially you controller costing over 60 some dollars the Xbox is halfway there they use hall effect sensors for the triggers making the triggers the longest lasting part in the entire controller
I had to solder freaking 2.4G antenna because warranty repair does not work here, and in fact i bought controller from another country. (Xbox series controller, Aqua Shift edition)
People in the late 90s and early 2000s where so dumb. They was more interested in a DVD player than online gaming. Oh how the tables have turned. The Dreamcast was the holy grail.
The Saturn 3D controller and Dreamcast controller are still fantastic despite some of the design flaws. If a company like retro-bit were to take the license of the design of either and develop a wireless version with some minor adjustments, I'd be totally down for it.
The Saturn 3D controller is my favorite controller but it does have stick drift issues unfortunately.
@@CRedd9830 That's unfortunate, I guess mine wasn't used much since I bought it second hand.
It's not that everyone else didn't know, it's that SEGA patented the solution so nobody could use it.
Despite this being my favorite console of all time, I'm not sure why I didn't think to either dissect my own or watch a video like this earlier. I'm amazed at the simplicity of the construction and the how much time it has lasted me. Same with a Playstation 1.
I feel like if Sega Dreamcast would release with DVD compatibility, the "console wars" would be Sega, Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft wouldn't have a console until Xbox360 or even at all and yes, flying cars and utopia 😂
Sega's plan was to make the machine as cheap as they could manufacture to keep the costs as low as possible to get as many Dreamcast's in homes before Sony launched the PlayStation 2 because they knew if they didn't have a mass install base by Sony's launch, they were sunk. Adding a DVD drive, a second analogue stick and rumble motors inside the joypad would have cost money and royalty fees I suspect that Sega simply couldn't afford at the time.
Sega did the Dreamcast as a last resort after angering their retailers to the point where most wouldn't carry the units at all.
The PhobGCC, a custom motherboard for the Gamecube controller, uses hall sensors, so you put two magnets on the stickbox and put a magnetic sensor on the mobo, and it works great, but mostly it's perfect input-wise even if the stick gets looser by use. It's incredible, and I don't know why other controllers aren't like this.
I would argue that one reason Hall Effect Sensors were not more widely adopted was because they were attempted prior to this on Atari’s Major Havoc arcade game, and were one of the greatest points of failure of that game.
I don't think we can compare the reliability of Hall Effect Sensors from 1983 to those of 1999
Cost was most likely the biggest issue. HE sticks might cost a couple cents more, and that's a gigantic number to corporation management.
Every time I watch a video about Dreamcast, I feel so bad that Sega doesn't make consoles anymore. One youtuber I watched summarised Dreamcast with this quote: "It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness, that is life." Dreamcast just wasn't ready for our world.
...........THEIR MANAGEMENT WAS HORRIBLE REMAINS AND WILL BE THE SAME--THATS *_WHY_*
......................AND SEGA ACTUALLY KILLED SONIC BY FIRING ALL GUYS WHO ACTUALLY CREATED SONIC...IN FAR 2006...........AND CHANGED THEM WITH GUYS WHO DONT ARGUE,DONT ASK QUESTIONS,AND JUST DOING WHATEVER SEGA ORDER THEM TO
I have PS2 controllers that never gave me problems. Crazy how stuck drift hinders so many newer controllers from PS4 and up that I’ve experienced. The Dreamcast controller was always an interesting one but it’s one of the best.
Same, I have quite a controller collection and all of my PS1/PS2 controllers still function perfectly and some of them are probably 20+ years old now. The Dual Shock series controllers are my absolute fav controllers of all time. They come in all sorts of nice colours, and are just beasts and work forever. And they are super comfortable, and I love the analog sticks on them. I'd say the DS3 was the best due to analog triggers. But they all just feel nice in the hand, and all have awesome analog sticks, IMO.
Yeah, I bought a 2nd hand PS2. The Controller was filthy but no Drift. I think there's a trade off though. Newer Controllers are more precise but are more prone to drift.
I still remember being able to play tennis by only looking on the memory unit display😂. There was also a racing game where you could couple multiple dreamcasts for a multi tv cockpit. Sega tried out a lot with the dreamcast
Great video. Always nice to see love for the Dreamcast.
As you said, it was way ahead of its time. And i also wonder how different things would have turned out if the Dreamcast had DVD capabilities.
Like another user noted, "the Dreamcast didn't fail us, we failed the Dreamcast".
I have cleaned, repaired, and modded hundreds of Dreamcast systems. with that I make sure the controllers are up to snuff. I have NEVER come across drift issue with an original Dreamcast controller! thank you for bringing this up to the masses!
oh so is the "3D controller" made for the Saturn have the same tech? i have not owned one in a while or taken one apart. but its obviously a prototype/precursor of the DC controller. So Sega may have been using the Tech even earlyer!
Classic system!!
The fact of the matter is really more about how we use to build things to last, now its about how to introduce planned obsolescence, just to make more money, alot of problems have been "solved" in the past, but we still do not use old tech today, because there market sales would be a lot less, be carefull what you buy and who you support
I always liked the Dreamcast controllers despite the cord coming out from the bottom. The fact that the stick is made the way it was makes it even better in my mind. But I have heard so much from people who think that the DC would have succeeded had it only had DVD capabilities. Sadly, it wouldn't even have gotten off the launchpad if Sega tried that. Why?
When the DC was in the design phase, DVD was still a new technology. The few players that were out there were extremely expensive, which is why few people had one. If Sega decided to go back to the drawing board and incorporate a DVD, it would have likely added at least $200 to the $199 (US) price tag, or even more since the DC launched in Japan in Dec. 1998. Sega, because of the failure of the Sega Saturn was haemorrhaging cash by this time and could ill afford any missteps in the DC's launch. And as we saw, even at such a low price point it still failed (partly because of the late launch of online gaming, and mostly because of the ungodly hype train that was the upcoming PS2).
But Sony's PS2, which did incorporate DVD, was able to succeed because Sony could easily afford to eat the initial cost of incorporating DVD, which was slowly becoming cheaper to produce in the interim between the DC's launch and the PS2's, and many people in Japan bought launch PS2s because it was a cheap DVD player to them. But Sega didn't have that luxury, and with the failure of the DC (I know, it's still a great game machine in my opinion, and I got it at launch from my preorder), Sega could no longer afford to compete without destroying themselves.
What would be a great idea in my opinion, is if Sega, who I assume still holds the copyright for that analog stick, licensed the use of the tech behind the stick to other interested parties. With the current worries over joystick drift, perhaps we'd get better controllers and Sega would get a profitable revenue stream without having to develop another product.
Ironically, in 1996
Sega was indeed interested in putting in a DVD drive for their next system, but at the end of the day they couldnt do it. I did hear an argument that they didnt do it cause they are a video game company first and foremost (prior to the Sammy merge) so they probably didnt want to get the license to use DVDs on their new platform, same reason as to how Nintendo still didnt do it to this day (even thou the Gigaleak showed us that the GC did indeed had plans to incorporate DVD technology into it and the Wii as well)
Sony was able to do it because they helped create the format alongside Philips, Toshiba and Panasonic. Why should they get a license from their own company to use their own technology? That does sound a lil silly when you think about it.
But yes, I definitely agree with the last statement.
GDrom wasn't the reason Dreamcast failed. Sega of Japans awful business practices and their constant beefs with Sega of America proved that the old men running SoJ killed the company and the DC.
DC had great games and was easy to develop for. it was a bit underpowered but it also came out 2 years before the other competition
@@iiOmarSP If Sega had indeed adopted DVD with the initial design, could you imagine how much a DC would have cost on launch? I remember our department store got refurbished DVD players in late 1999 (around the Christmas season) and even refurbed they cost $249.99. And the most common argument with potential buyers was "well, why should I buy a DVD player? I'd have to get rid of my VHS tapes" (Uh, WHY?). And naturally Sony went with the format; just like with Blu-ray in the PS3, they were trying to get people to adopt DVD, and that's exactly what happened. DVD was a no-winner for Sega, and if they had indeed adopted the format, it would have flat-out killed Sega because of sheer cost.
@@awwrelic something something
450 is my guess
Never had Dreamcast, but being able to easily replace stick is neat thing on it's own, and it looks so simple and there's practically nothing can brake (under normal usage) all i can get from mind is spring loosing up (as you said) and magnet demagnetising
All modern controllers need that type of stick and they will be close to perfect.
But if they do that you'll be buying less controllers!
PS3 had that, but nobody cared and "people" flamed it regardless, nobody talked about the never drifting Sticks (before A1 Revision)...
that shows we don't give a shit about drifting sticks and only care about superficial stuff that makes the Controller either fail, unrepairable or disgusting after 5 years or so.
@@lolcat No, because YOU don't care and bashed and flamed the Controller that had Magnet based Sticks and never gave them credit for it -> SONY PS3 was the last first party Controller that won't drift.
Did you talk positively about it? Probably not. So why should SONY care when you don't?
@@Stefan_Payne maybe nobody talked about it because a controller working is kind've the point. You said it yourself. The ps3 controller was the last one to not drift, meaning up until they chose to make worse controllers. Non drifting controllers were the standard
@@christianr.5868 PS2, Gamecube, IIRC XBOX and XBOX 360 controllers were drifting though, with time, as they all used 150 year old Tech. And Potentiometers will wear out and cause drifting.
There is a Workaroud for that, that is absolute garbage horse shit: increase the Dead Zone. And that really destroys the feeling...
And IIRC the Playstation uses a lower Deadzone than some of the Competition, which makes them more suceptible to Drifting.
But then again, its not the Companies fault, its OUR Fault for not talking about it, giving credit and flaming the PS3 controller for everything.
Huh, now I want a modernized Dreamcast controller. That would be an AWESOME 3rd party controller.
0:10 yo I think that's Sonic Adventure DX (gamecube/pc) not Sonic Adventure and I'm upset 😊
It is, the give away is the Sonic model. More in line with SA2's model and being way more glossy.
Planned obsolescence...
The Dreamcast stick had a different problem - it would feel stiff moving left to right half way across the axis. I took mine apart and put petroleum jelly into the plastic parts that move up and into the middle of the stick and it pretty much solved the problem...But then I ended up with disc read issues and random resets, so sold up.
@@Sanchaz12 Good tip 👍. I remember my Tamiya RC car had some specific lithium grease for use in the differential. Didn't think to use it back then but it was getting on for 20 years ago so I was only a teenager!
@Steve D I remember cleaning and bending the pins to apply more pressure to the contacts. Also tried cocktail sticks in the socket on the PSU board to keep pressure on the pins. It helped but didn't stop it. Games that streamed music started having problems and then later the disc drive failed. I enjoyed the console while I had it but decided it wasn't worth the hassle dealing with such unreliable hardware.
Its really surprising how well the Dreamcast controllers still hold up in terms of long-term use.
Just goes to show that there has always been a solution to joystick drift, it's just that companies don't give two craps anymore. Old PS2 controllers could survive years before even having a loose joystick, my old PSP had a good 6 year run before having drift. There is NO reason why game companies shouldn't address an issue that should be non-existent today, let alone back in the day. There's just no competition anymore, it's all about maximizing profit all day every day.
The Joycons are somehow even more prone to drift than the N64 controller....
EDIT: removed one "somehow".
At least those would last a few years (and even more with careful usage and maintenance).
Don't forget that the PS3, from prototype controllers up until the third to last DualShock 3 models released, and PS Vita, the OLED model at least, also had magnetic sticks. Though they were based on an inductor that also had a sense line, a specialized chip drove the inductor, the magnet on the stick's gimbal manipulated the inductor's field, then the sense line fed it back into the same chip, for what I assume was amplification before feeding it into the controller's main chip; the PS3 variant was based on the same potentiometer-based housing, and the Vita's was a different housing but had a similar setup for the inductor PCB. The cool thing is, someone has tested and had a very limited run product that uses this same concept to make regular mechanical key switches be analog compatible, down to the point where you only need a thin plastic PCB, as it's just a coil of copper for induction and sense that uses the mechanical switch's spring as the field manipulator rather than a magnet, with some extra processing at the chip end of things, between a typical keyboard PCB and the key switches, as a very DIY-able and upgradable approach to analog keyboards.
Gulikit's variant is probably the best of what currently exists, where the standardized housing is easily a drop-in component. Though I'd argue that a needed upgrade to this is getting rid of the metallic housing that needs soldered in, and instead use a housing that uses plastic clips as the retention mechanism; going one step further than Sega with the Dreamcast controller, where the controller shell with the screwed in PCB is the retention mechanism. Gulikit's implementation is also simpler, using only two sensors per stick with opposing magnets to generate a solid field boundary that the hall effect sensors can read, rather than relying on a singular dipole magnet to do the same; in comparison to the Dreamcast design using four sensors and only one pole of the magnet, which also requires additional logic to produce a positive or negative signal.
Though, I do wonder with the Dreamcast's design, if it were to evolve to have a push button under the stick, as all modern sticks now have, how compatible it'd be. I'd imagine a push down would inevitably cause a stronger signal in the sensor, causing additional directional input when that isn't wanted. I'm not sure how affected by this the Sony design was, as the field would logically be similarly affected. Gulikit's design, once again, seems to be best, as you're passing the boundary line perpendicularly over the sensor, the slight tilt in the stick's gimbal when pressing the button should be entirely negligible. But at the same time, I do think there could be further improvements, like having the button under the stick entirely, rather than off to one side with a degree of gimbal tilt to actuate it, rather a button under the stick would allow for linear vertical movement of the gimbal, which in a design like Gulikit's would work well, in a design like Sega's might not work as well due to the previously stated issue.
The only real issue with magnetic sticks is calibration and longevity of the spring being able to return to a true center, which is why these sticks still have deadzones. If you look at Gulikit's King Kong Pro 2's no deadzone feature, the non-pro version doesn't offer this, the sticks' input can be super jittery due to how the spring returns to center, which is why deadzones are still needed. A heavier spring also doesn't entirely fix this, due to the stick itself being more resistive to movement, while a lighter spring that makes a stick feel floaty would have this centering issue if not also introduce rebounding.
I also wish Gulikit would produce a modified design of the hall effect joysticks to be a drop-in replacement for all controllers. Their design is having the sensors on the controller's PCB with a ring that contains the magnets on the stick's gimbal, with a potentiometer-like housing that's nothing more than a cover. If they were to modify this to where they shrink this ring, put the sensor on a small PCB with legs for soldering, and integrated all of this into the potentiometer-like housing as a potentiometer replacement, this could be a solution for other controllers. Given that Gulikit is working on a JoyCon replacement using hall sensors, which they're _very_ public about, I don't see why they wouldn't also be working on a drop-in replacement for the common controller potentiometer.
Sadly, we probably won't see this in first-party controllers for some time. Sony's solution is replaceable modules, which has been done before, in their pro-style controller. No idea what Microsoft is doing with their next pro-style controller, but I'd be genuinely surprised if they use magnetic sticks, though this would be a massive selling feature, but sadly probably wouldn't trickle down to the standard controller anytime soon. Gulikit is however being a supplier of these sticks for other companies, Aya Neo has bought into it, 8BitDo now has a controller using them, the Steam Deck has replacement modules using the magnetic sticks, and I'm not sure who else they're supplying to currently or has plans to supply to in the future; though I wouldn't be surprised if the module-based sticks, like Sony's 'solution' which borrows the concept from at least one other company, will see magnetic replacements, their socials have already said there's 'a good chance' of the Sony stick module having a magnetic alternative. Outside of Gulikit, there seems to be no interest in non-pot sticks, and I think the only way the rest of the industry will get interested is if these third parties, both the manufacturer and other brands implementing them into their own products, make a push large enough to disrupt ALPS, who supplies all the first-party pots and a lot of the better third-party pots. Even then, I think magnetic sticks won't be common for another couple generations at the very least.
Makes sense to me. I wonder if SEGA is still holding a patent on the joystick and that's why no-one else seems to have just ripped-off the design. Also wonder why SEGA never released their own 3rd party controllers for consoles just to thumb their nose at everyone by doing it better.
It's almost like they hate money & practical business sense...
That certainly sounds like sega of america (sega of japan was often making better decisions when sega was big, but then sega of america would ignore those decisions and do something stupid)
@@coopercummings8370 it was ultimately the miscommunication and internal battling between sega of japan and america that was segas downfall.
poor old sega europe was just watching from the sidelines and getting screwed by both of them.
Sega's analogue stick patent would have expired by the end of 2019 just like their patent for the arrow in Crazy Taxi expired that year but I suppose the XBox Series X/S and PS5 controllers would have already been well into the design stages by then so that could be why they didn't use it.
Sega did make 3rd party controllers
They used to make Controllers for Sony
They released a Sega Saturn clone controller for the PS1 and one of the first wireless controllers for the PS2
I've always felt that a big part of joystick failure is the "clickable stick" function (aka L3 and R3 on most controllers). It seems like drift became a drastically more common issue once that feature was introduced, and very few games use it for anything interesting anyway.
I have always said the same thing. I completely agree with you.
Was thinking about the same thing. I wonder if there's a simple design iteration which can leverage the advantages of this design without losing L3/R3.
the xbox was essentially the spiritual successor to the dreamcast, many of the design choices were inspired by the dreamcast and MS worked closely with Sega on the DC no doubt knowing they were looking to gain some insight for if/when they got into consoles
The companies made a conscious decision to use potentiometers because they have a set lifetime. They want controllers to be consumables that have to be bought multiple times over the lifetime of a console. It's all about the profits over everything else.
I never experienced stick drift on any controller till I got a Switch.
The DC is my all-time favorite console but the controller ergonomics suck. No clue what Sega was thinking or who they were designing for.
I love that it has grips instead of “handles” makes it feel better than any controller at the time.
Alright; This is how you want to play? My comments have been getting deleted. I'm going to post the topic I was linking out too.
This is quoted from a post complaining about Nintendo's new Oled Switches. A buddy of mine already knew this as he likes tinkering with game consoles and fixes them as a hobby. He posted this back in 2021 under the username Quto:
*Aside from Oled being a nicer screen and the increased memory size + better constructed Switch Dock, kick stand, LAN connector and white motif; it's still the same switch and it's something nobody wants.*
*They still need to tackle their drift issue, yet they've been dodging drift for ages and no longer promoting their joycon replacement program as they are losing money on replacing the joycons in general.*
*Joystick drift is going to be around and there are ways to either fix it traditionally. But the infamy of this is that it's happening more often.*
*I still think they could technically tackle the problem by trying Sega's solution, using induction sensors and a magnet from the Dreamcast controllers. The console is about 18+ years old and the joystick still work like a new with little to no drift! :D The down side to the old joystick type is that there's no Stick buttons to click, though this can be worked around.*
End Quote.
If you go to the Poke Community forums under video games and look up his name under the OLED Switch announcement. He already made this fact known and tells anyone already who makes this same complaint. It continues to fall on deaf ears.
Dreamcast wasn't ahead of its time, in fact it was outdated in some regards like the single analog controller or the cd-based media.
But it was build to last, like every Sega console was. A practice all major players seem to have forgotten.
Fascinating. Had a Dreamcast since 2000. Never knew the joystick was so ingenious.
I still mourn the Dreamcast... It could've been a key-player alongside XBOX, PS2 and GC. I am still fantasizing about what would've happened if Sega still pushed the system, releasing Ninja Gaiden, Gun Valkyrie, Panzer Dragon Orta, JSRF, Super Monkey Ball, Virtua Fighter IV etc. exclusively on the console. I mean, ultimately I was impressed by the XBOX and GC, but never really the PS2 due to the poor video output.
Poor video output?
Last time I checked dreamcast didn't have 16:9 Progressive Scan and also doesn't support component video
Dreamcast is more effective at textures, anti-aliasing, and image quality
Whereas the PS2 is more effective at polygon geometry, physics, particles, and lighting. The PS2 also has a more powerful CPU geometry engine, higher translucent fillrate, and more main RAM
@@P_D-px6iv Did you know the dreamcast had a oficial cable where most games could do 420p soo de image is very clear in newer tvs on the other hand the most of ps2 games wouldnt go pass 240p. So yes dc had better image quality by default
@@pedronicolau9246 The PlayStation 2 can natively output video resolutions on SDTV and HDTV from 480i to 480p, and some games, such as Gran Turismo 4 and Tourist Trophy, are known to support up-scaled 1080i resolution using any of the following standards: composite video (480i), S-Video (480i), RGB (480i/p), or VGA (for progressive scan games)
Sony also released official component cables for the system which support upto 1080i 16:9
@@P_D-px6ivDreamcast had progressive 480p as standard, 16:9 was more a matter of what aspect ratio the game rendered at. There are games with 16:9 support. Rayman 2 being one I can think of. (although, keep in mind that 16:9 was very uncommon during the time period when the DC was active. I believe more games would get released with 16:9 if the console continued to live on into the 6th generation). It's not like it couldn't do 16:9. Ultimately the PS2 was a flickering interlaced mess on SDTVs with it's 480i, which was really the only way people gamed on the consoles. That's the reason why the video output was poor in comparison. On SDTVs the Dreamcast rendered at 480p internally, but had an output of 720x240. Removing the interlacing issues. however, every even line was then blended with every odd line causing the image to get Super Sampled, hence the amazing AA and non-flickering output, looking superior to the PS2.
The PS2 might support a lot of different resolutions, but ultimately. People played on SDTVs with flickering and lack of AA being a part of that experience.
@PixelShade 99% of dreamcast games were 240p not 480p PS2 had more 480p games than Dreamcast
PS2 wasn't necessarily meant for SDTV, Sony had high hopes EDTV's would take-off which is what the PS2 supports and plays on best
Thanks for letting me know about the hall effect sensors and for the teardown! I definitely agree that the Dreamcast was way ahead of its time. DVD playback or anything like that wouldn't have helped though (price increase on the console for one). Sega sealed their grave with all the past failures and abandoned products so the public didn't trust them. The 32X, Sega CD, Saturn (outside of JP), etc. Sega did everything right with the Dreamcast, in the same way that Nintendo turned everything around with the Nintendo Switch. Unfortunately Sega didn't have nearly the savings that Nintendo did, as you said. Nintendo owning the handheld market also helped a ton with that Wii U slump.
Saturn was mainly a screwup in the west, but did much better in Japan. They shouldn't have killed it off early, leaving US with a gap and overlapping the still viable Saturn in Japan.
Also, pricing DC at $200 instead of $250 tanked their profits even more.
I like to think if the sega cd, 32x, and sega saturn all never existed, the dreamcast would have been huge.
Saturn would have been fine if they didn't release it for a whopping $400 when the PS1 was $300 and N64 was $200
Wow the engineers in Sega were futuristic, they were so ahead of the time with Dreamcast.
When it comes to hardware, I compare SEGA’s innovation to apple’s. They’re always ahead of other companies with new ideas. I’m pretty sure if Dreamcast succeeded or had DVD player. Gaming would’ve look very different today.
There is nothing innovated that I can think of that is made by Apple other than high price and copying from other brands while Sega has been making early VR headset in the 90th
I wouldn't be so sure. The Xbox was basically the successor to the Dreamcast, Sega even signed an exclusive deal with Microsoft. Not to mention the original Dreamcast was designed with the help of Microsoft.
The DVD player would have made all the difference. Most people bought a ps2 because it doubled as a DVD.
@@robertharper3114 it was also cheaper than most high end DVD players
Now that you mentioned this. Yeah, I still have my dreamcast and I played the hell out of it. Unreal Tournament, Quake 3, Shenmue 1 and 2, Project Justice, The House of the Dead 2 etc. I just checked it again 3 hours ago and it still works and stick drift whatsoever after all these years. Dreamcast, you're the best
It would be interesting to compare how hall effect analog sticks compare to the standard sticks in terms of precision.
Maybe there's other reasons to why it hasn't become the standard too, like a patented design by Sega (like the Nintendo D-Pad is) or other thing.
It would be a very interesting Technology Connections video.
correction: the nintendo D-pad patent has expired already, and even when it was in effect it was so fuckin overly specific that it didn't apply to webbed D-pads as in SEGA's controllers, or inset D-pads as in the playstation controllers
Worth noting that the N64 doesn't have stick drift either (though it has other shortcomings) as it uses 2 optical encoders - the optical switches and the stick mechanism are also independent of each other.
I miss the Dreamcast, still the coolest console ever IMO
Wow this is amazing, never knew 😲
Loved my Dreamcast, was always telling people "it's better graphics than the PS2, and cheap enough to buy a separate DVD player and cost no more"
I wonder if you could modify a playststion controller to work with that 🤔
I think the reason is fairly simple, at the scale of miniaturization back then, carbon pads were perfectly fine, they were rated for several thousands of hours of use. Given that drift is a function inversely proportional to the number of rated hours of use, controllers that failed early were "manufacturing defects" and simply got replaced via warranty. With each generation being more and more compact, the pads have gotten significantly smaller, and along with that, much less resilient.
Keep in mind controllers (and almost every other HID ever) are consumables, even the rubber membranes in the buttons or the spring in those hall effect sensor joysticks have a limited lifespan. The problem here is that as joysticks became smaller and smaller, their lifespan drastically reduced compared to every other component.
there is also the issue that at the exact same time, the sensor's got more precise. a drift that would not be noticable in a GC era controller would definetly be in a modern one. the biggest thing is that dead zones are much smaller these days...
I always remember remember how solid it felt, like the console was a heavy, quality product.
You made the exact point regarding the demise of the SEGA DreamCast: DVD playback/drive from launch, and the overwhelming hype/war-chest of Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft combined against them. Had a second-generation follow-up to the SDC been availed with a built-in DVD drive, and higher CPU/GPU specifications, assuming SEGA had survived the console wars, and Microsoft had never been a player to begin with, then surely, we'd be playing a new iteration of Daytona USA right now. Albeit the XBOX is spiritually a neo SEGA DreamCast, if you recall the Microsoft Windows CE involvement with the original SDC alternate OS system 'option', and Microsoft wanting to claim a stake in the extremely competitive videogame industry during the transition period the late 1990's and early 2000's, long after the company's MSX ventures in Japan during the 1980's left a small impression. Panzer Dragoon Orta might very well have been upon a SEGA XBOX type of arrangement if SEGA had stayed in the game. I also recall SEGA as being very optimistic and enthusiastic regarding hardware power/specs throughout the company's hardware 1st party era. So, a SEGA XBOX 360 could've very well been a partnership in an alternate reality as well, and very much a powerful SEGA system of the mid 2000's console era.
Whilst on the mention of SEGA IPs, it stuns me as to why SEGA still hasn't officially availed the original (MODEL 2 ARCADE) House of the Dead as at the very least, a digital download (not to be confused with the recent HotD reimagined software release) or as a compilation of HotD arcade wares in physical form. Further still, the newest Daytona arcade reboot (technically Daytona USA 3???) hasn't been availed as a console release yet remains an arcade exclusive fixture, the Afterburner SEGA Lindburgh arcade version 'Climax' being taken off the digital sales availability charts years ago, the light gun shooter Transformers arcade games (based upon the movie versions of the same name) that could've been easily ported to the Wii/U, the vast catalog of SEGA DreamCast games that have yet to be availed via compilations (Capcom's PowerStone series, Cannon Spike, and Tech Romancer), and the 32X versions of Afterburner and Space Harrier missing from the MD/Genesis 2 mini games list (though Space Harrier I & II running @60fps as bonus titles sure are close enough!), and the fact that the so-called 'remastered' ports of the SEGA Titan/STV games Cotton Boomerang/2 + Guardian Force weren't tweaked enough to reduce the control lag significantly.... all the aforementioned decisions call into question what SEGA is and isn't doing correctly as of late.
The SDC versions of Dynamite Cop (a remastered version of the original MODEL 2 arcade game running at a higher resolution w/enhanced texture work) are still a fun arcade classic to play, yet I don't even see it available as a digital title for purchase anywhere, along with Fighting Vipers 2, and a complete version of Virtua Fighter 3 TB in full MODEL 3 arcade form at home.
One can only play through versions of Judgement + Sequel, the Yakuza games, etc., in order to unlock various SEGA Model 2 + SEGA System 16, 32 arcade titles and SEGA IP classics, before I finally start demanding a real SEGA Arcade Collection (I don't count the SEGA Astro City Arcade mini as a general collection, but rather a niche collectible for gamers like me). Yeah, SEGA doesn't really have large sums of investment capital for grandiose projects, but the company has such a rich legacy of arcade IPs to choose from. At least Virtual On OT is still available as a digital purchase.... yet the classic gamers demand further, and better allotment of SEGA IPs NOW. Sorry for the SEGA enthused rant. :v ~ "SEGA!!"
It's not just the controller; if you've ever taken apart a Dreamcast, the _whole thing_ is _extremely_ modular. Their previous two consoles - the 32X and the Saturn - had all sorts of finicky soldered connections and large, complex boards that were hard to take apart and service; I think they _massively_ over-corrected with the Dreamcast. Everything inside comes apart either with sockets or surprisingly sturdy detachable ribbon cables. If I had access to the parts, I could probably fix almost anything on it myself, no soldering required. Had to be very cheap to assemble, too!
The Dualshock 2 controller for the PS2 was the first time I experienced controller drift, I would just move the stick around real fast to remedy it, I think the problem started when they started making analog sticks that press down.
recently got myself a dreamcast, I was trying to find info as to why the dreamcast stick felt so great after 20 years. Which led me here to this vid, thx it was very informative.
I saw the AVGN wrap the controller cable to the top. He actually held the controller upside down at first because of the odd cable. I like how he shrugs afterwards.
Sonic Adventures is a great game. 8:41 That's ridiculous. How can a video company do that? We already have flying cars, but you need to be rich and have a pilot's license to even use them which is why we probably don't see them.
A lot of people seem to wonder why the Dreamcast failed and what they could have done to succeed. The reality is they lost before they even started. After the failure of Saturn the Playstation took over the market and no one cared about Sega anymore. Some say including a DVD drive could have saved it, but realistically Sega couldn't afford the financial risk of selling the Dreamcast at a loss to be competitive with Playstation. And consider how the Gamecube which came out later did fine without DVD.
The one thing I think they could have done to succeed is to launch a year earlier, but they would need a solid launch lineup of games too which would have required all Sega's different divisions to work together. Sadly teamwork is Sega's weakness
I appreciate that you've included an authentic strange brown spot on the thumbstick that every Dreamcast controller has in 2022. Thanks buddy.
I have a flight stick with Hall sensors. Very good.
Dreamcast's only serious problem was what came before it: Sega CD, Sega 32X and Saturn (Saturn was great but had problems.) But Dreamcast's biggest problem? Sega itself... it got the Dreamcast "right", but so much before wrong. God bless you, Dreamcast, my favorite console!
Just made the prospect of a Dreamcast mini a lot more attractive. Awesome video man.
Very interesting fact. One more point to the crédit of Sega. I've already had drifting issues with a PS4 chinese gamepad but I was far from thinking the Dreamcast had the solution 23 years ago. Thanks to you, now I love this console even more.
As someone in the Smash melee community and the fact that this tech is a huge step up on our custom controlers for reliability its a really a shock that this stuff is 20 years old and probably could have been on the gamecube in the first place.
Moreso than drift, the issue that I encounter most in analog sticks is the loss of that springiness that you demonstrated just before the teardown. As much as I love about the DualShock 2, I've had to go through so many because the sticks get so loose in the center -- the readings they give are still fine, they just never return all the way to origin, and I keep having to grow the deadzone larger and larger to be able to use them. Is that also something that Hall Effect analog sticks address? Or is it just a separate-but-correlated issue with using cheaper parts? At the very least, even if the spring would eventually wear out, replacing *just the spring* looks like it'd be incredibly easy in the DC controller...looking at the DS2, the whole stick unit is enclosed in a box, and I'm not sure I could even get at any springs in it without breaking something.
I wasn’t aware that this was how it worked. That is a pretty sweet design. Current Gen… no one’s immune from “stick issues”. It’s the input that gets hammered the most, and with secondary functions like press thumb stick in to crouch… some games have you smashing the sticks constantly.
Perhaps this design would NOT allow for that secondary press function as well?
Or maybe it could be coded for in a firmware update. IE… magnets sense super close proximity on all 4 sensors and we would register that as a press.