Thanks for these videos. Middleburg, FL Last week aquired a plant from Home Depot. While, in Home Depot my spouse seemed bothered by the infested plants that had lots of caterpillars on them. I quickly bought one lest other customers freaked about the caterpillars on the plants. Stupidly I didn't even pay attention to the type of plant even though I've been planting Natives in my small yard. The plant turned out to be non native Scarlet milkweed. More caterpillars hatched. The plant was practically gone so I sent my spouse to Home Depot for a 2nd plant without any caterpillars on it. But, It must have had eggs as we have more caterpillars. Crash Course in Monarchs. LOL Seems a bit late in the season for NorthEast Florida and caterpillars? Still learning. I've ordered Swamp Milkweed seeds for next year. From The Seed and Garden Exchange (usually a trading seeds group) Hope I can be a better helper next year. Even if I'm not raising them and just trying to grow milkweed. If I can figure out the Native Milkweed. Thanks for the Crash Course of Videos.
I’m a veterinarian but I really haven’t been dealing with insects ever. And I got some milkweed just has a pollinator in my yard. Within days I saw a monarch flitting about. Then days later I found a caterpillar. I was happy to let them live in the wild. Until I saw yellow jacket trying to drag one of them off leaf and stinging it and killed it So I did initial research on how to find the eggs and larva and how to care for them them in an enclosure etc. I now have a couple of stages in the six different enclosures I have. But I’ve had some sick caterpillar’s. Two were either instar 4 or they were very small inStar five and they were just hanging straight down until they died. One from the top of an enclosure. The other from a leaf. When it looked like it had a puncture wound or some sort of clear yellow who is coming out of it but I didn’t see anything on the other one. Now I’m freaking out about which ones are sick. If I see a caterpillar that’s not eating I’m terrified he’s sick but I don’t have a 15 and closures for each individual caterpillar. Also all the ones that have gone into a chrysalis which are 6, Or along the edge of the enclosure. Not tons of room to move about when they come out but I just want to leave them alone. Also I live in Center California and I assume they don’t wanna be in my air-conditioned house but I also assume they don’t want to be in direct sunlight. I’m having a hard time finding information about what I should be doing it. Any suggestions deeply appreciate it I have ordered milkweed seeds and will be growing my own. I bought my first milkweeds online but those are the ones that were just growing outside and everything was doing fine. Then I went to a local nursery and only has local in species and doesn’t use any kind of pesticides and they were doing fine now I have gotten some more because Renee had a milkweed and sources from another nursery that promise they don’t use any kind of pesticides or chemicals… And I did see a lot of aphids on their plants and some ladybugs and other things so I figured they were fine. But it does seem like since then caterpillars have not been well. It could be there just to that stage… Although I do have the six very healthy looking chrysalides.....Who knew butterfly raising would be so stressful?
I’ve been raising butterflies for over 20 years. OE From what I understand has always been around. Any light frost will kill tropical milkweed just like any other milkweed. They’ve tested them for OE in areas where they overwinter and many times 90% or more are positive for it. I have about 400 chrysalises right now, and here in South Texas, during this season they’re pretty much all supposedly carrying it. Ive seen probably 3-4 misshapen chrysalises this year, All of which were because something was pushing on them or they fell during initial pupa stage. It’ll happen out of a few hundred. I remember one year about 12 years ago where we had 95% of her monarchs die inside the chrysalis or they hatched completely deformed. Exactly how they describe OE. That was the one year my parents hired the pest control people and they fumigated the outer border of the house. Insecticides/pesticides, cars and loss of host plant habitat are the main reasons the monarchs are losing numbers. Tropical milkweed grows quickly. That’s the difference between it and most local varieties. The last few years I’ve come to the conclusion it’s mostly hysteria. Don’t stress about it
They do well in a mesh enclosure outside the house. Yhe neef yhe changes of temperatures day snd night to become strong . The red headed fly is their enemy , protect them from her. Keep the enclosure closed . Turn never your back on the enclosure , a fly could fly into it while you clean it. And remove the poop regularly, keep it clean. While the chrysalis is soft it could het stung by another insect that might inject an egg inside it while its soft. Enjoy the raising of the monarchs. Collecting the eggs right after the female Monarch has laid them and following her visually where she had been to give her the time to do it. If the Monarch is not going to the flowers and it is the female it will be laying eggs Females have no dot in their lower lines of their wings. All lines are clearly straight in their wings.
What you're describing is almost for sure parasitization of the caterpillars by Tachinid flies...(AKA T-flies) and you need to know about them, hopefully, you can save your home from becoming nothing more than a Tachinid breeding farm where Monarch cats never make it to adulthood as has happened at my home in Ventura, CA.. Tachinid flies… I planted a bunch (30 plants)of Milkweed in my backyard this year and started raising Monarchs. The first month or so they thrived with no problems then the caterpillars started dying right when they went into the J-stage, what should have been the last few hours before transforming into a chrysalis... They went from J to hanging limp... And Tachinid maggots crawled out of their sides soon after. They crawled around and soon turned into very tough pupae. This started happening to more and more cats. Until now the only cats I can get to the adult butterfly stage have to come from the eggs I collected off my plants before they'd become the prey of tachinid flies. I'm thinking about destroying all my milkweed because my efforts to save the monarchs have just produced a far bigger threat to them than the benefits they get from me trying to help them... I have a huge area just saturated with tachinid flies. They'd probably be good for a garden because I find all sorts of other moth and beetle grubs sick and dying from tachinid flies injecting their eggs into them... I know this because I have brought in their bodies and watched the tachinid maggots crawl out of them. My 30 milkweed plants in my backyard at this point are nothing but very productive tachinid breeding farms and they're infecting every caterpillar that hatches from the 50 or monarch eggs their butterflies come and lay every day. BUT THEY ARE DEATH TO MONARCH CATS... I can't tell you how angry and depressed this makes me. I spent a lot of time and effort trying to save the monarchs but now I see for sure why, sadly, extinction will probably be their fate. Everybody is saying habitat destruction and loss of wild milkweed are the major reasons for their declining numbers but I disagree. At least not around here in Ventura County...… It’s tachinid flies beyond any shadow of a doubt… I know whole wild fields of beautiful, lush milkweed with monarchs flitting around in it, feeding and laying eggs. I have verified the eggs are being laid and they are fertile, If you search very hard you can find tiny 1st, 2nd and very occasionally even 3rd stage instars but no surviving cats past 3rd stage instar... Tachinid flies... If you watch closely you can see the flies attack a cat and in a split second insert a T-fly egg in it and rapidly fly off. The cat will drop off the plant, and thrash around wildly after that for over a minute, it must hurt very badly. I've brought those bitten cats into my house and raised them in screened containers, they inevitably die in the J-hanger stage. They just go limp and are obviously dead. A couple days later T-fly maggots will come crawling out the side of the dead cat. The first couple time these infected cats died I didn't notice the dead bodies until after the maggots had exited. I know this because 4 or 5 days later T-flies started showing up inside the terrarium I had my cats in.
Thank you for addressing this VERY IMPORTANT subject Mr. Lund! Once in awhile on my Facebook group the issue of O.E. comes up and I even get some of my members that DON'T have the heart to euthanize them when infected with the protozoan but it's a MUST! I euthanize mine, if they need to be, by placing in a zip-lock baggie and place it in the freezer. When it comes to dealing with O.E., you DEFINITELY want to be SURE you're not contributing to O.E. infections by releasing infected monarchs. Thanks again for preparing this video on a topic that is a MUST view for people raising monarchs, especially in huge numbers. John U.
Thanks for the support. I still feel egg dripping off my face, though, from saying "bacteria". Sheesh! I'll be changing the thumbnails too as soon as I get the chance. Upcoming videos this summer will include OE prevention. Not enough just to show how to test for it. The rest of the conversation is more important: How do we keep it from happening! Also, how do you feel about invasive species? That's what the upcoming rap song will be about, which should be released first week of March. Hope you dig it!
While not a fan of "rap" music, since you're doing it and it's for a GREAT cause, I guess I can "dig it!" LOL! Yes, what you will be addressing in O.E. prevention is VERY important and it's not that hard to do at all. Simply disinfecting with a 5% bleach solution to water will do the trick. There's also a way to disinfect the eggs as well. One video I saw this individual actually removed the eggs and briefly exposed them to the solution, then rinsed them off. Looked like a complicated process. I would think that just the leaf with the egg being dipped in the solution briefly would do the trick. Anyway, look forward to seeing your videos when you release them! Keep on doing a GREAT job! Saving monarchs is critical and the more people are exposed to this message and the "How To's" will make a BIG difference! ;-) :-)
VERY IMPORTANT to deal with invasive species. The Hawk Mountain Sanctuary that I visit frequently just down the road from me feel it's very important as well. They have "sawgrass" that is growing on the sanctuary grounds in different areas and they are battling it BIG-time!!
You are inspiring and I thank you again. How can I accurately recognise the early Instars ? Ist Instar is easy but 2nd 3rd and 4th Instar Catapillars. Off to find a Microscope
I was excited to see your presentation on this topic. Recently on the central gulf coast, OE has become a bit of a hot topic, as it relates to native vs tropical (aka Mexican) milkweed species. Because we rarely freeze, the tropical milkweed (Asclepias Curassavica) does not die back regularly either (like other perennial North American native varieties, eg. a. tuberosa, a. incarnata, or a. perennis). People in the South like A. Curassavica because it's pretty butterfly food and nurseries like it because it's easy to propagate (natives are notoriously hard to start). A. Curassavica is being blamed as an alleged harbor for OE year round in the South since some Monarchs do not make the journey back to Mexico, over-wintering here instead. Then, if any of them are infected, they pass it on to the migrating Monarchs later in the spring. In fact, I saw a monarch float passed me this morning (temp. about 70d F), and even recorded a female laying MANY eggs for over 30 min on Feb 5. I also had 5 caterpillars eat up any remaining milkweed I had in January before metamorphizing and going away (though, they may have died in the freeze). There are discussions and historical logs showing that Monarchs have been over-wintering south of Lake Pontchartrain in our micro-climate since the 1950's without incident, but others are suggesting out of an abundance of caution to remove A. Curassavica from gardens. A more moderate suggestion is simply to cut A. Curassavica back to about 6" in the winter to discourage Monarchs from staying here. The idea is that it's better to starve Monarchs to death than take a risk that A. Curassavica is perpetuating OE. Personally, I do not think I've seen signs of OE, so I have not cut back my tropical milkweed or my Gomphocarpus Physocarpus, but I monitor as many butterflies and caterpillars as I can while I try to get some kind of native milkweed to actually grow in the ground. I don't know if there's data related to infection rates along the migratory paths, and if those are higher along the gulf coast, but you can Google and see it's a lively topic along the I-10 corridor. Great series! Keep up the good work!
Thank you for that quality and thorough information! These were only posted a few days ago, but already, enough response has caused me to think there needs to be some research on my part, and possibly a video on how we can prevent OE spreading (more than just euthanizing those who have it). I'm looking into what tips are out there for people especially living in high OE areas as to what can they do to raise OE free Monarchs. I think that'll be a video out in summer, once I have some Monarchs here in Michigan to test out. Thanks again for all that information. I learn new things often from viewers and their quality comments.
MrLundScience Since I'm not "raising" monarchs, only providing habitat, I wonder if there is a way to test for OE on the caterpillars. They are easier to catch, and if need euthanizing, will prevent the destruction of milkweed for others, plus the time and effort to catch adults. I also wonder if you can use the tape to stick to plants and test them for spores?
I would have to imagine tape testing leaves could identify spores present. It'd be a load of work though! From what I'm reading online, there are ways to clean leaves before offering them to cats, and that might prevent their further spread. Research research research!
I do not use Instagram at this time. I do have two Twitter accounts. @MrLundScience is the primary science account for any and all things science, including the Monarch videos. @TungstenClan is my other account which is more like my own personal account, but also is focused more on the Science Hip Hop that I produce.
Thank you for this! This is very important! Even though this is our first year doing this with the kids, I am taking this opportunity to educate them and the added weight to our responsibility!
Thank you for explaining OE and what has been happening to my monarchs this year. Last year we raised about 100 monarchs and had no issues. This year we are having a 70-80 percent mortality of the monarch in the chrysalis stage. We will watch your videos again and try to learn all we can to stop this infestation. It has been a very sad summer. Hopefully winter will kill any OE that might remain in the garden. We have never hoped for winter before.
I'm glad that these videos can help. I wanted to get them out ASAP last year so that before spring came, people could be equipped with potential solutions. I wish you luck!
OK been raising Monarchs in SW Florida for several years. We quit Monarchs in favor of swallowtails as every Monarch we tested was + for OE. Not just a few but >90% SAD!
This is a fantastic Monarch video series. Thank you. We live in mid-Missouri rural farming area. This area receives aerial crop spraying of various types. So milkweed out in the fields is all but gone. To offset this loss of habitat of milkweed I work to raise local milkweed "in town." Crops that contain milkweed is not good for the farmer. So I raise milkweed in town in small zones. I see Missouri DNR (Dept of Natural Resources) now has Monarch sites now at their Highway Rest stops. This is a great idea. I think we need to publicize growing milkweed "in town," more, along with establishing a fly-way from Mexico to Canada. Thanks for showing us how to help the Monarchs.
Some who raise Monarchs will become those who wish to take it further. Planting milkweed is definitely the number one way to help them, so certainly, people getting involved with addressing this at a community level will be necessary to achieve the long term goal of their populations become sustainable. It's great that you're thinking this way. Something I worry a bit about is the mowing of highway medians, which tends to be here in Michigan, a place that milkweed naturally starts sprouting. They have mowing schedules during the summer that are shorter than what time it takes for an egg to become an adult. There's no way around it...they must be mowing down a large number of eggs/caterpillars/chrysalides each time. But it will take some grass roots awareness to get something like that changed. I'm trying to look into what options I might have for approaching this.
Thank you so much for your understanding for those of us who are just getting started on a small scale. (I'm in Northwest Indiana.) I planted my first milkweed last year and supplemented those with seeds from a plant I collected at the park. So this year I have a successful milkweed patch and am raising monarchs for the FIRST TIME EVER! My husband and I currently have one egg, one newly-hatched first instar, and one third instar in containers; I wake up in the morning hoping they are doing okay! Yep, just 3 monarchs for now. We purposely let another 2 eggs remain in the garden yesterday because we did not want to take on too much. That's our "level" at this moment. I watched your video on disinfecting leaves & eggs and I think we will do that with our next batch, if we take this on a second time. But I appreciate your support & your compassion for those of us who are new to this. I think if you took a more hard-line approach I might just feel overwhelmed!
TY Mr. Lund! I have a registered Monarch Way Station in No. Ca. # 12833 and this is the first time that I have bleached all my Monarch eggs and Milkweed that I feed them. Sadly though, I do not have many Monarchs this year. Hopefully I'll still get some more. I do bring the eggs inside my house, bleach them and transfer them to a critter cage where they are safe indoors and feed them the bleached leaves. And I grow Native Narrow Leaved California Milkweed for them. TY again for pointing out what the "Monarch Farms" do! If I had one I'd make sure ALL the eggs were bleached and fed bleached MW leaves too.
You're certainly welcome. And, I want to be clear, I don't know that *all* Monarch farms act the same way...there could be some that operate very responsibly. I've just also had people tell me, first hand, that they have ordered Monarchs from some companies and the Monarchs were heavily infected. (Hmm...sounds like this should be tested out, huh?)
This really sucks.... I have had several failed hatch monarchs since about six years ago when there was a VERY small revival... all of the ones that failed apparently had this bacterium... I have had three deformed butterflies that I couldn’t figure out why and I literally cried because I knew they wouldn’t survive and I have had four that didn’t emerge and I can only assume it was OE which I didn’t even know about till this video. Thank you for informing me.
I have a video that shows how to test for OE here: ua-cam.com/video/pxXkAL1h2pw/v-deo.html Next Raising Monarchs episode, though, will show how to do this even easier.
Oh yes, they absolutely are! I use the microscope I do in this video because I already had it. This technology is much more affordable and pocket sized!
Hi, thank you so much for all of your videos. As you have mentioned, the very southern tip of Florida has a high amount of cases of OE. I live in Central FL and have been trying to help the monarchs since March. The milkweed plants I have bought look fairly healthy, even some w eggs or caterpillars already. But after a while a lot of my monarchs started not to hatch or hatched w OE :( I realized the plants I was getting come from South Florida... and I wondered if these plants could be carriers of OE spores on the plants??
Mr Lund, please be sure to see my reply to your reply to me on the When Adult Monarchs Can't Fly video. It is about OE and a non native milkweed widely sold in California. Thanks!
Thanks so much, Rich, I have learned a lot from you! I just started to raise the Monarch Butterfly for the very first time in my life since three weeks ago, 7/23/18. There were four eggs, and one died while it was a Caterpillar, and the other three turned Chrysalises. Within the last 30 hours, a female and a male turned into butterflies 20 hours apart from each other. They are big and beautiful! Another one is on the way, perhaps by early tomorrow morning. I love to see them transform into stages. I learn as I go mostly from you because you are very knowledgeable and thorough. In the OE Bacteria videos, you talked about the Microscope to test the butterflies whether or not they are infected with OE Bacteria before you release them, and I wonder where did you purchase it, and how much did it cost? I want to say thank you, and please continue to share with us, the ones who love and care for Monarchs. Blessings!
Greetings Viviane! The word "thorough" in your comment warmed my heart. That's definitely what I strive for. I sometimes think I talk too much, though, but it's in an attempt to cover all the details. Tough to judge when it's too much, but I appreciate that feedback. With the microscope video you saw, I think you saw the first one with that large clunker of a microscope. You don't need to get a huge one like that which would run near $200. I made a new video this season that shows a MUCH more affordable way: ua-cam.com/video/32IqyxjOUfM/v-deo.html With those microscopes, there are many options from many companies available, and Amazon or Ebay or other online stores have them. I've also seen a couple at some stores that have a kids science section. They're out there. So, one needs not spend a fortune to take care of OE. Thanks for getting into this and doing what you can to help out the Monarchs! Ask questions as you feel the need to, and welcome aboard!
Thanks so much for your fast reply! I will definitely purchase the microscope later today. I will test the OE before I release them. I have 2 females and 1 male. They are sooo beautiful and very healthy. They are quite big and bright. I'm a little slow in releasing them, but I want to do it right. So, I watched your video of how to feed them, and I feed them since yesterday. BTW, you are doing absolutely great, please do not think that you were talking too much. You remind me of my Dad. When my siblings and I were young, every time he explained and taught us something especially homework, we thoroughly understood and we never have to study it over and over again. He was a Dentist, a Professor and Vice Dean of Dental School. There are a lot of teachers out there, but the thorough ones are THE best Teachers! When I watch your videos, I don't want it to end! This is the main reason why I chose to learn from you and follow you! Blessings!
Well, thank you again. Those are quite strong, kind words. We live in a world that has less and less time for things, unfortunately. Sound bites and quick clips are all the rage. Real learning, of anything, takes time. I try in the videos to troubleshoot, and think ahead as to what new questions might pop into someone's head about the topic because of the video, and preemptively answer those questions too. So, I truly appreciate that feedback, for sure. Some have commented before that the videos are too long (not many, but some) and when that's happened, I decided to watch the video and see what part I would have been willing to not have in there. I usually don't find any. Tickling cat videos can be under a minute. But to learn something, especially something that has many details to it that can be important, likely videos will remain between 10 and 15 minutes, and if it's a very important topic, even close to 20. (But I have an unofficial rule that I *should* be able to cover a topic in less than 20 minutes, or I'm not explaining it as concisely as I should be able to. Richard Feynman taught me that!)
Hello! And thank you so much for making this series. I live in Tampa currently and we're embarking on our first butterfly season as a family. I have to admit to feeling so depressed seeing those FL numbers of OE. I'll take your advice on the testing but have to wonder, is there much point in doing this in Florida where the numbers are so high? Are we doomed to be doing more harm than good releasing monarchs here?
I understand what you are saying and I am not going to release them with OE either! Releasing them with OE will probably help reduce the population and we want to increase the population!
It can definitely depend upon where you are. Where OE isn't prevalent, it's probably a good idea to not release, as you'd be artificially causing OE to be out there "more" than it normally would be. But, in areas where OE is very prevalent, euthanizing all that you rear that have it might mean euthanizing every one of them. For these reasons, I made a video that discusses the details so that people can make an informed decision: ua-cam.com/video/5WEewtof3w8/v-deo.html
I live in south FL but also spend the summers in NJ. Last summer I raised several butterflies from eggs - black swallowtails & monarchs. All was fine with them and I looked forward to doing it again in FL this past spring with the red & yellow tropical milkweed I planted. I had 10 monarch caterpillars make chrysalises with 9 emerging as butterflies, but every one of them had deformed wings and couldn't fly. It seems they all had OE. I had no idea about the difficulties in raising them in FL, and your old data chart seems to confirm that. However I think your chart's percentage is a bit low based on my own experience. This summer in NJ I raised 22 monarchs from eggs so far and only 2 of those had problems. It seems they both were parasitized by a tachinid fly. The first one had 2 maggots emerge from its body while it was in the j-position. The 2nd one had 9 maggots emerge while it was in the 5th instar. Hoping to have better luck in FL next season and plan to test for OE. Thanks for your videos - they are quite informative and helpful!
I'm learning more and more about Monarchs and flies. They're definitely not fruit flies, and may be a tachinid fly, although mine don't look anything like the tachinid I've seen online. But one thing for sure, I'm not alone in this battle.
Tachinid flies are quite variable. They aren't just one species, but an entire family of over 8,000 different species. Thus, what tachinid flies you have seen online could just be one species and not the specific species you have encountered. Just FYI. And from species to species, while some are similar, many look quite different from others.
First, thanks Rich - you are the reason I started raising monarchs this year. I would not have been able to do it without your excellent series. And, through your videos and this process, I've decided that I'm definitely planning to raise milkweed instead next year. I just released my 5th monarch today about 4 hours after he eclosed. As of the release, it looks to me like his probiscus has not zipped, and I've found that same thing with 3 of the 5 i've released in the past few weeks. (I was devistated with the first one and had to watch your video and decide how to deal with it - I finally chose the 'let nature take it's course and let the monarch fly while it can' route... After watching this vid I will definitely test all future monarchs but I'm wondering why I keep getting the split probiscus - is this a characteristic of an OE deformity? Any reason why this would keep happening? Could I be mistaking the split probiscus? I also had 3 cats that were forming chrysallids last week perish- one fell from its pad and later turned black, and the other two that were in the same enclosure couldnt complete the transformation into the chrysallis - the chrysallis started to emerge but after 1.5 days they hung there and started to shrivel (all of them later went into the freezer.) That is part of why I have decided on going the raising milkweed route (aside from also knowing that this is a better help to the monarchs than raising them.)
Yes. We have many dying & dead caterpillars, whereas we had NONE last year. We released about 20 healthy ones last year. Rick doesn’t talk about what causes the cats to die….so are the cryssilides (5) infected?
Thank you for all that you do Dr Lund! Someone may have already said this but what about letting the infected ones live inside (of course under the right circumstances) when possible rather than killing?
Greetings Gift! That's certainly an option, but a risky one. Most who have taken on the extra effort of testing their Monarchs for OE are then usually rearing more than just say, the 5 that a parent might raise with their kids for a summer project. So, if someone's rearing larger numbers, say 20 - 50 or more in a season, having OE infested adults at their home runs the risk of the spores somehow getting into their process. Is it possible for someone to house and care for one or two infested adults, and keep them well away from the caterpillars they are also rearing? Is it possible to keep tools used in rearing well away from the infested individuals? Is it possible that someone could be diligent enough to always make sure to thoroughly wash their hands whenever they've been around the infested adults? All is possible. And yet, as Ian Malcolm in Jurassic Park taught us, "Life finds a way." Many see it as putting the ones they are rearing at an unnecessary risk to OE infection, and thus, don't go for that option. It only takes one spore accidentally transferred to the milkweed leaves you're using for feeding to cause another caterpillar to become infected, so many do what they can to avoid this. In the end, it is up to the individual. (Just one more thing as an aside: I'm not a doctor. I have no doctorate degree, and thus, have not earned such a title.)
Hey! Great video! I'm so glad you addressed the issues with the east coast Monarchs. I honestly didn't think it could be a problem here. I'm definitely on the lookout now. Have 5 chrysalides at the moment. When should I be on the lookout for the brown from OE? Because I'd rather destroy the whole chrysalis, than to destroy the butterfly once it emerges.
Greetings Elodie! Have you watched the recent video about chrysalis issues? ua-cam.com/video/wB8udbV3kOY/v-deo.html In that video, I make the argument that we shouldn't give up on the chrysalis. That there can be times when it looks like it could have problems, yet, healthy, OE free Monarchs can still emerge. Admittedly, in that video I never have any brown chrysalides. Now, I fully understand and respect your wish to not have to be in the position of having a live butterfly that is infected with spores. Still, it's just not my personal position to end a chrysalis's chance to surprise me. I look at it from the perspective of, "I don't know for sure OE is present until I verify the presence of spores on the adult with a microscope." That's my...I don't know..."code", I suppose is the best word, that I operate under. Another reason, too, though, is that how "brown" does it need to be before I would draw the line? Since how much brown it has can vary, I avoid this. Certainly, if it was severely brown, that's much more obvious than just slightly brown. But where do we draw the line with "brown enough"? I don't wish to draw such a line, especially since the line of "spores or no spores on an adult" is a pretty obvious and firm one. If I were to recommend to others when it's brown, it should be euthanized, that would create many problems on my hands, and for good reason. Some might be harming/ending a chrysalis when there's just a little brown, and it didn't actually have OE. Some might mistakenly see a chrysalis as brown, when it's just an off coloration compared to others, and mistakenly end it, thinking it had OE. Thus, this is an area with so many gray spots to it, I don't delve in there. But also, something that might help: It is the recommendation of some who study the OE parasite that a small amount of infection is still something that can be released. I've made it clear that from my perspective, I go with what Monarch Watch recommends, and euthanize if spores are present (something I've only had to do once). But, that is not a "rule" that I say everyone else needs to follow. It is up to the individual. I only advocate that the individual consider the information available, and then make their own informed decision. If you haven't seen it before, this video, which I admit, is quite lengthy to be thorough, shows what different experts have to say about the question of whether or not to euthanize. There is some variety to what they have to say: ua-cam.com/video/5WEewtof3w8/v-deo.html
Thank you so much!! That was super helpful. It's good to know that there can be some brown discolouration and its doesn't necessarily mean the Monarch will be infected with OE. I'll just have to buy a little microscope and test for OE myself. Thank you for your reply! Appreciated so much. Being from Southern Ontario, I will be thoroughly testing them next summer. Like you said, just because we are on the east doesn't mean OE isn't an issue, or could potentially be an issue.
Thankyou for sharing this information. The first year I released 29 butterflies, and last year I only released 8 butterflies. I still see this year the egg hatches and then the cat dies as soon as it eats part of the leaf. This year I want to change this outcome. Thankyou.
Agreed. It's always sad. Nature is beautiful, but nature isn't very kind to insects. It's unfortunately part of the territory we deal with if we are going to raise them. Still, the benefits outweigh the drawbacks severely!
Not a good week for me down here in South Florida. My husband bought me a microscope and I just used it for the first time today. Both of my test subjects were obviously not going to make it so it was no surprise but it was still hard to see! The 1st one was loaded. The 2nd was infected as well. Sad! Neither could fly so it was not a surprise as I said but still. One more to go out of this batch and I'm thinking its not going to be good since they all were caterpillars together.
Here in Arizona I just collected some milkweed seeds from my garden to further plant after I "cold shock" them to sprout. I have several verities of milkweed growing & am looking for further native verities to add to collection. Am interested in learning about some of the verities that may be "OE" associated, research will help. Nice nautilus back drop.
When it comes to OE, to my knowledge, there isn't a milkweed that is associated with it, other than OE can be more heavily found in some regions, where also a milkweed plant is more prevalent. In other words, it's correlated, but not causal. So, for example, Tropical Milkweed is more likely to have OE spores, but only because where it is native, the weather conditions allow the plant to not have a winter purge, which also purges the OE. If a Tropical Milkweed plant were grown in a more temperate clime, it would not necessarily still be more likely to have OE spores on it than a nearby native plant. Does that make sense? Glad you like the wall painting. We very much enjoy that room!
I have truly enjoyed your videos. I’m in Maine and hoping that OE infections are low. Thus far I have 9 chrysali hanging, 3 have emerged and appeared to be perfect however all 3 have been unable to hold on to any type of perch. They appear to just be too weak and fall onto their backs. Despite multiple attempts to assist them, I have been unsuccessful . I’m awaiting the delivery of a microscope to test for OE. My question is, could there be some other problem? Last year we were 100% on successful releases and had never heard of the OE parasite. Now I watch and wait.
Greetings Patricia. I'm not too sure about healthy looking Monarchs not being able to perch. If they seem weak, it could be something to do with how much they were able to take in of food prior to the adult stage. But, that might not be it at all. Just a guess. Have you tried feeding them a honey water solution to see if some boosted energy can improve the situation? Here's a video on how to feed them: ua-cam.com/video/CAks8lJ9SDY/v-deo.html
I bought a kid's starter kit from amazon of painted lady butterflies and then found your channel to start planning another batch of cats. Now my painted ladies are all adult butterflies except that two of the chrysalises were strange looking and never emerged plus my first butterfly came out in very sad shape (crinkled wings, can't walk). All these symptoms sound like the OE you describe with the monarchs. Does this parasite affect other butterflies like painted ladies? I'm horrified that a kid's science company would be selling cats with parasites and then those butterflies are getting release all over harming the local butterfly populations! In the meantime I have three other adult butterflies that look fine but I'm hesitating to release them (or hope for some egg laying from them on the host plant I have in my garden) unless I know they are healthy. Waiting for your response and thanks for this wonderful channel!
Greetings Dani. I'm fairly certain from all that I've read, OE only affects Monarchs and Queen butterflies, which have a common ancestral lineage. It's quite likely that an ancestral version of OE parasitized the common ancestor of Monarchs and Queens, and has co-evolved with that lineage ever since. Whatever differences exist in the physiology of the Monarchs and the Queens these days is still similar enough that the OE can grow in both. But, I have not heard of OE ever harming any other butterfly. Still, that doesn't mean that Painted Laides don't have their own parasites. I'm just not at all versed in Painted Ladies (or really too many other butterflies). I can't speak on the specific company that sold you these, but I can say, I do know that there are some companies selling Monarch chrysalides (for things like releasing Monarchs at weddings, and the like). And I have heard from people that they have sometimes received a batch of Monarchs from such companies that were indeed infected with OE. Even if healthy, because this is a migratory species, shipping Monarchs into areas that are not part of their natural migratory path, or even are on their natural path but at unnatural times of the year can cause potential problems. I don't wish to smear any such companies... And I'm sure that there are some that do take very good care to make sure they are not releasing parasites. Even so, I just don't trust the fundamental idea of selling Monarchs for profit. If not careful, it has the potential to do further harm to an already troubled species. I have to balance that, though, with science companies that are just trying to make available caterpillars that can teach kids the valuable ideas of conservation and life processes. Many kids do get a lot out of such kits, and that, of course, I'm a fan of. It's a tenuous opinion I have of such practices.
Hi Rich! I found some eggs this year on my garden. I have been working hard to help them. I hace a chrysalis that turned kind of brownish and even though it didn’t fall or anything a bit of fluid came out of it. It was really close to another of my chrysalis which today started to present some brown marks on the top. Do you think that first chrysalis that died might have transmitted that to the other chrysalis? Is there something I can do to save the one that just got infected? Should I separate my other chrysalis to avoid this spreading more? I love your videos and I wish someday I can develop a system as good as yours to help more monarchs. ❤
I got my microscope yesterday, no parasites. She won't drink, this is day 2. I have watermelon, oranges made honey water, but also put some flowers that she has been staying on, so I'm hoping she's getting nourishment from them. Everything seems to be working ok tho. Tomorrow she will go free 😃
Thank you. I'm glad you approve. I was worried many would be upset with the choice of euthanizing. I hope people understand how it is for the greater good. The support is appreciated.
Grew a lot of milkweed in my yard this year and chaperoned the monarch caterpillars to emergence. We've seen 8 so far. 6 quite healthy, but most of them have bottom of their wings damaged. Found one yesterday that was very weak and appeared to have a wound on its body that was full of white dust. Similar to the white stripes on its underbelly. My friend says that's their usual color. Is this normal colors for the monarch, or is this some type of fungus that is eating away. It reminds me of how some cicada have a fungal infection that eats their body. Thx!
The quick answer is, I don't know. I'd have to see what you are talking about to know. But, I can also say that I've never encountered a fungus growing on a Monarch. Could be something that happens, but I'm unaware of it. Sorry that I don't have a better answer for you. Perhaps try looking at as many images of Monarch abdomens online to get a feel for what they normally look like.
I had my caterpillars in an ice-cream bucket with a screen top. I was waiting for them to emerge from their chrysalis. One day I checked them and the bucket was full of little flies! This happened to three out of four. Only one butterfly emerged. Was this OE?
A cheaper, lower maintenance option for a microscope could be the Foldescope. I don’t have one personally, but it set at $40 and as thin as a credit card.
In order to present a more affordable, "at home" way to do this, I made a follow up to this video showing an alternative microscope. While I'm not endorsing any particular brand, these hand held scopes are usually under $20 and can get the job done. ua-cam.com/video/32IqyxjOUfM/v-deo.html
I am sorry that you lost the one monarch from your rearing project. One thing you might consider is preserving that specimen(pin and mount on a spreading board), and include detailed data of when/ where the ova was obtained, and the dates and times of the insect's development. Then place the specimen with the data into a Schmitt box or glass topped insect display drawer (which you can get from Bioquip). I realize that collecting may be frowned upon by some, but much of what we know about these creatures is based upon well curated, data rich collections. Look at it this way, properly mounted specimens can last for centuries, and there may be unanswered questions regarding a species that are preserved instead of discarded. In this case we need to put our emotions aside and adhere to the scientific method.
I fully agree with all said. However, as I don't know which ones will have OE before hand, I'd really have to up the organization to catalog locations of all eggs found, and date them, and then keep location specific containers going so caterpillars don't get mixed up. That might add more time to my operation than I have, to be honest. However, I do still have that specimen. He's in the freezer to be mounted. I figure if you lose one to an infection, those are the ones to freeze and mount for educational purposes. Those making Monarch jewelry, however, are really promoting a harmful trade. Even fake ones promote it. I can't get behind that, and would really hope people discourage actual bodies of Monarchs for decoration purposes. Last thing we want is Monarchs to be further hit by a market for them (which, unfortunately, is already developing).
Are OE parasites dangerous to humans or pets ? My husband found a monarch butterfly that seems to not be able to fly so we’ve been keeping it shut in my art room on a plant in there . I watched your other videos trying to learn what’s best for the butterfly and how to feed it then I came across this video and was curious about whether we should be worried about this parasite getting on us , our kids or our pets . The pets are not allowed in the room though .
Hey Rich! I’ve raised 2 monarchs from first instar caterpillars and now both are turning black and orange! I can see the wing colours now! I have a question: my chrysalides are both close to emerging but are right next to each other. Can I still move them still? I hope I can! Thanks, Ewan.
Hello! We had a wild monarch Caterpillar pupate in our front yard and we have been observing him for 12 days now. On day 10 the chrysalis began to turn black, and now on day 12 it is still black and the orange wings cannot be seen through the chrysalis. Is he dead? :(
It's not sounding good. And as this comment came about a week ago, if it's still there and black, I'd say it's time to call it. Sorry that this happened...
3 of my J Hangers just died today when parasites popped out of them! Yuck! I’m in LA, California and have never had a problem with this before in previous seasons! Help! Is it my milkweed plant? Im so sad this is happening. 😥thank you 🙏🏻
Hi, really enjoy your videos. I have brought in 16 eggs in 5 days. Six hatched today and ate the fresh milkweed but appear to be black in color 5 hours later. Could you please give advice on what happened? I’m new at this and all of us are upset at what we are seeing. Please help. Thanks 🙏🏿
I'm a bit perplexed myself. When caterpillars turn black upon death, it usually is due to NPV virus. But, that usually doesn't take place until they are many days along in the 3rd, 4th, or 5th instar. I've never heard of it happening to caterpillars their first day. As far as I understood it, it would take much longer than 5 hours for the caterpillar to contract the virus, and for the virus to reproduce and cause the death and black coloration. Especially that you provided two hands held together as an emoji showing hope, I wish I had some better information to tell you, but I'm stumped on this one too... Do you have others that have hatched that are doing well? Or since posting your comment, has this happened to more? To all?
Classroom teachers get butterfly kits for the classroom. Painted Lady butterflies emerge. Could they be spreading OE? I've never seen any discoloration.
OE is a parasite that only can use the Monarch butterfly or the Queen butterfly as a host. The parasite co-evolved with those two butterflies (and likely, their common ancestor) to use their specific physiology to get their life cycle job done. The Painted Lady just doesn't have the "right stuff" to allow the parasite to develop successfully, to my knowledge.
Is Tropical Milkweed any more likely to hold the OE parasite than local Milkweeds, when it is grown in the north and is killed by frost every fall? I think there is a lot of misunderstanding on this. People are saying the plant is the problem but I think it is the fact that it doesn't die in the deep south. I am in northern Delaware and tropical milkweeds are killed with the first frost here in October or November.
Hey Sparky. I agree, there's misunderstandings on many things about Tropical Milkweed. Partially, I think, this is because there's much still being researched about it. I don't know that I have the answers you seek. And also, I don't know that anyone does yet. To my current and incomplete understanding, the winter purge is what keeps OE numbers down in the north. Further, there are medicinal properties involved with the Tropical Milkweed plant, and this has shown some researchers that some Monarchs that are in the southern areas that don't receive a purge may have a behavioral trait that causes the females to prefer that plant for laying eggs. The reason being, that if the caterpillar feeds on Tropical Milkweed, it can help prevent the OE from developing as well. However, there is also research that suggests that the OE that *does* still develop in such Monarchs will be a more virulent strain of OE. That could mean, an untested Monarch that is infested with OE that was raised on Tropical Milkweed may transfer OE spores of a strain that is more virulent than others. That wouldn't be good. For these reasons, I know that I wouldn't want to plant Tropical Milkweed here in Michigan. Further, I don't wish to introduce species that aren't naturally here anyway. Helping the Monarchs is important, but changing our local ecosystem in the process can cause unforeseen issues sometimes. And since Common Milkweed has larger leaves anyway, I go with those. I suppose the bottom line would be, when in doubt, go with what is naturally in your area.
Sparky, we apparently planted Tropical Milkweed here in Southern California, not knowing that it was Tropical, and in our climate it stays all year round which has turned out not to be a good thing. The first year was wonderful but now on the third year it apparently has collected OE from reuse of the same leaves plus the breeding goes on all year and many eclose in Winter, not good, plus we are seeing increasing numbers of misshapen ones emerge.
I know that there are tagging programs for those west of the Rockies. I have found this tagging program, for example: www.swmonarchs.org/tagging.php but I'm not familiar with this group. I imagine they're doing similar studies to what monarchwatch.org does with its tagging program. Whether or not you *should* is completely up to you, but as with most experiments, the more data, the better. In testing for OE, that's an individual's choice. You will have to decide if you want to test or not. It takes more time, and in some cases, you need to not release the Monarch you just raised if it has a heavy infection. That would mean euthanizing it. So, I understand if some people won't want to do that, and this is also why, I'm not going to be someone to tell another whether they should or shouldn't test for OE. They have to make that decision for themselves based upon what they are comfortable with.
I am on the West coast. I have had two out of 15 that were infected. I did euthanize them. The others were stunningly beautiful. Thank you for this video.
I feel your pain with the two that didn't make it. Thank you for making the tough decision to help out the others have a greater chance of increasing the population.
Thank you for leaving this comment. I am also in the west. Over the past 3 years, the numbers of monarchs I have been seeing in a MW patch I help care for have gone from two three years ago to about 10 this year and I have seen females laying eggs but have only managed to find one today which I promptly brought home to raise. I want to do everything in my power to successfully raise this one, precious egg and knowing about that this is a problem in the west will allow me to try to prevent it. No need to respond. I just wanted to let you know that your comment was helpful and to thank you for it.
I'm loving your videos. Question. I use potted plants and netted, very large netted Butterfly enclosures. Thinking on OE, how might I clean an infected, plant and enclosure as opposed to leaves. I get the egg disinfecting as I use critter containers, but what about the plants that they will be transferred to when they are larger. Any advice ? Graham Foster. Oceanside Southern California
To give you my honest advice, I wouldn't transfer them to those plants, but rather, keep them in containers and bring the sterilized leaves to them. I'm not sure if that's the advice you were hoping for, but if the plants are exposed to nature, the caterpillars are as well, and are at risk to OE, as you've pointed out, but also tachinid flies, and other predators. As for trying to sterilize a plant as a whole, you'd have to use chemicals on it, and thoroughly rinse it, but that can be such a large undertaking, I know I myself wouldn't feel confident that I had rinsed it enough. If your netting protects them from tachinid flies and the like, though, wouldn't it prevent Monarchs from getting to the leaves as well, and thus, prevent OE from being deposited by a carrying Monarch?
Hi Mr Lund, so this is the Cycle. I have or had numerous plants I got from a specific Butterfly Milkweed Nursery here in California. They were left out and eggs were deposited on them. I then collected the eggs as soon as they were laid and used Critter Keepers to raise them using leaves from the same plants they were laid on. Then when the Cats are maybe 2nd or 3rd Instar I transfer them onto one of the potted plants and put it in my Net environment until they complete the Cycle. So I'm wondering if the egg laying Monarch has OE then my plant that eventually goes into the Net environment may have OE. I'm not sure if that makes sense. I've already set 14 Monarchs free this season and have 8 more Chrysalides ready to eclose in about 10 days. That is the last as my plants are all done and need to regrow. So I'm wishing there was a way to know if my plants are infected from the get go since they are not protected at the Butterfly farm nursery where I'm buying them. Also, supposing all my adult Monarchs are healthy, am I helping in any way with the migration being that I'm so close to the California migration destination ?
MrLundScience hope you hot my follow up question. I Wish I could show you some photos. This is my first time involved. Being that I am in Southern California I'm not sure if there is a break in the season. If the egg laying Monarch is infected I'm done from the get go because I'm recycling my plants. All my eggs hatch but I've had a few like 5 Catapillars that have died from what sounds or looks like it could be OE. If I was to get rid of all these plants and try to start again there is no way of knowing when a female Monarch lays eggs on one of my plants, if she has just infected the while plant.. I have 12 potted plants that I'm recycling for leaves for eggs in critter containers and to keep in my Net environment. I am not wanting to send out infected Monarchs. Being that I'm so close to where the Monarch's congregate on the coast of California near Mexico, what part am I playing if any to the Migration and over all Healthy population of these beautiful creatures.
I think I understand it better now. I haven't done this before, but one option you could do is take some clear film tape, lightly apply it to leaves (just enough to catch things on it, but not enough to stick to the leaf) and then place that on a note card and view it through the microscope just as I do in my video on how to test for OE parasites. If you spot check multiple places on your home plants and turn up nothing, it doesn't guarantee that there's zero OE, but of course, the more you come back with negative results, the more confident you may start to feel. Something that may reassure you is that if a caterpillar has OE, it's inside, and the caterpillar isn't going to transmit it to new plants it is placed upon, per se. It's the adults who have the spores on the external parts of their body and deposit new spores on leaves. If it is indeed a strong concern, though, your best bet is to not place the caterpillars on the plants, but rather, keep them in containers and bring the leaves to them, having bleach treated the leaves. That's the best advice I can give. Either way, though, you're having success, and that's awesome! Bravo! As for the migratory cycle, it's likely that no, your Monarchs aren't part of the Mexico migrating population. *Even still*, you are definitely *helping*, as there is NO population in North America that *isn't* suffering! Due to OE, NPV, and other killers, Monarch populations are reported to be quite down. I just have numbers on the Mexican migratory population because they all roost in the same locale in Mexico, giving us a convenient way to estimate their population size.
Please see the other comment I just made on your other comment, which answers some of your questions. Let me ask this, though: Have you watched the video on how to bleach treat the eggs and leaves? If you do that, and then keep the caterpillars out of nature from there on, until it is an adult and is released, you should have great success with not having OE harm your Monarchs. There's little to no way for OE spores to get into your system if you do it that way, but again, this would involve always taking the leaves to the caterpillar, and keeping it in a controlled environment, rather than returning the caterpillar to outdoor plants. No matter the locale or which population you are helping, thank you for being involved! ALL North American Monarch populations need help!
I write to you with a heavy heart. Of the eight cats (7 found as late instars, and 1 newly emerged from the egg) we've worked so hard to raise, only one has eclosed and lived. Six died either as cats (NPV), or eclosed and immediately fell, too weak to hang on to the empty chrysalis long enough pump their wings (OE). Yesterday, we came home after being away all day and found one that seemed to have successfully eclosed and pumped her wings! We tried to release her to our bee balm and butterfly weed garden, but she kept fluttering down to the ground. She held onto Hubby's hand, and his shirt, but didn't seem to want to be on a flower. It was a bit breezy, so we thought maybe she just needs a bit more time in a protected area before being released. We put her in a brand new critter cage with a variety of yarrow, bee balm, and butterfly weed, and cut pieces of mandarin orange. Hubby said he noticed immediately, but I didn't until later in the evening. She has slight folds on the bottom of each upper wing, and I suppose this is why she doesn't fly strongly. We're supposed to get storms again today. QUESTIONS: Should we release her tomorrow morning and hope for the best? Or should we assume she has a milder case of OE and freeze her? The small cat got to a late 2nd instar, and suddenly died for unknown reasons, but we're thinking the leaf we cleaned with a weak bleach solution wasn't sufficiently rinsed and any lingering bleach must have killed it. We DO have five more eggs that hatched just a few days ago! We are terrified that they are also infected with either OE or NPV, but we'll put them in separate critter cages (which will be thoroughly disintected before placement) and hope for the best.
See the photo on top right in the link above. You can see clearly the bottom tips of each of the top wings is folded over. Because they're almost identical folds on each side, do you think she might be able to fly? What would you do?
Greetings Jeri, I apologize for not being able to reply to you sooner. I can sympathize with the weight of your heart. I really hope this doesn't discourage you. You are awesome for being this dedicated, both you and Hubby. It's so tough when you put so much into something, along with gallons of hope, and it turns out this way. If they made it to chrysalis, my vote is usually for OE rather than NPV. I'll be honest...I haven't looked into NPV as thoroughly as I'd like to, as there aren't as many quality sources that are just right at hand with a quick Google search. I also think it's partially because NPV doesn't seem that prevalent here in Michigan. Still, it's something I need to educate myself more on. But, from what I do know, NPV usually will take them out as cats, whereas OE, if it kills them, it's usually in the chrysalis stage, as that's when the spores start to really multiply. I think that from the others falling victim to what sounds like OE, the other one that eclosed was likely just the least infected. You asked what I would do, and the answer is, I'd test it for OE using the tape/microscope method. That being said, if that testing is not readily available to you, I would assess that 1) it's likely it has OE, 2) if released and it has OE, it has the potential to spread OE and cause harm, and 3) it does not look like it'll fly anytime soon. The Monarchs, when they come out, their bodies are "as is". The wings will not heal. If it can't fly today, it won't tomorrow either. I would think freezing would be the best option, unfortunately, followed by burning the body if that's an easy (and safe) option. I know, not many people are having cozy fires in their homes in July, but it is a way to ensure the parasite doesn't spread. Truly, though, I want to commend you on all of this. People involved with raising Monarchs are already quite committed, but I hope they realize, it's people such as yourself who take this on, and *have to deal with these hardships*, yet keep going...that's a level of commitment to be admired. I appreciate you very much, and I hope others here do too.
We're about to bleach all the critter cages that tragically housed our diseased cats, so we can put our four brand new 5th instar cats in their own new digs. To make 5% bleach solution... We're going to soak them in a 5 gallon bucket, with 3 gallons of water and 19 ounces (a little more than 2 cups) of ordinary bleach from the grocery store. I think the math is correct, but it seems like an awful lot of bleach! Please let me know if this is correct.
That would give you 403 ounces total, 19 ounces of which are bleach, and thus, a 4.71% solution. This would work. The target is usually around 5%. A quick way to do the math is to take the total volume of solution you wish to make (put it in small units, like ounces) and divide that volume by 20. Whatever the answer is you get, that's how many units of bleach you want, and then add water until it gets to your desired volume. That guarantees a 5% solution if both liquids are water based (which bleach is). In other news, Jeri, I shot the video that helps show how to bleach the eggs (found 18 today, so I was *finally* able to make this video). I'm hoping it's out by Tuesday... We'll see. The editing program likes to play tug-o-war sometimes.
Hey, I'm based in Florida, if it is really 80-90% what do I do? Out of about 100 chrysalides, I've had about 10 fail to emerge or only partially emerge, likely due to OE. Statistically, it looks like I'd have to euthanize all of my butterflies, so next question becomes, why bother trying to help? Do Floridians just sit this out?
I agree, it's tougher in Florida, no doubt. But hey, you Floridians are tougher in general, right? I love your state so much. It's SO AWESOME in Florida! The reptiles ALONE make your state a place I thoroughly love visiting every time I've been down there. You are home to my favorite snake, the Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake (though I'd keep my distance if I ever saw one, of course), not to mention alligators, crocodiles, and just a wide assortment of lizards, turtles, etc. Your state rocks! Okay, on to the actual question... Obviously with OE at such a high rate in Florida, many Monarchs in the wild will have OE. There's no avoiding that in the wild. Some have misinterpreted the discussion of OE to think that there's some goal of eradicating it, but that is most definitely not the goal. It's part of nature. It'd be a foolish quest from the get-go. And it's just not at all the goal. What we wouldn't want to do, though, is artificially cause more OE than is already out there, by doing a raising process. So, what's one to do? I have videos on how to bleach treat both eggs and leaves. Bleach treating eggs: ua-cam.com/video/oZYzzcGiZRA/v-deo.html Bleach treating leaves: ua-cam.com/video/2FE9646Z9xs/v-deo.html What one could do in Florida is make sure to bleach treat eggs that they take in, and the bleach treat any leaves that come into their process. This will create, in theory, an OE free system. Monarchs can then be raised OE free, and released to nature OE free. Granted, it's quite probable that in mating with Monarchs in Florida, they will themselves be infested with spores. Still, it has increased the numbers of Monarchs in Florida somewhat, and has not artificially increased the OE that's out there. But, if one raises Monarchs in Florida without bleach treating, it can lead to 100% of Monarchs being raised with OE, and thus upon release, has artificially bumped up the prevalence of OE in that area. So, it is a bit of extra work, but it is still an option so that one need not "sit this one out". Now, what if you are bleach treating, and you test for OE, and you still find one infested with OE spores? At that point, it's not my place to answer the question for the individual, but for them to come to their own decision. I just ask that it's an informed decision, and that's why I made the video on the choice to euthanize. It's a controversial subject in this specific hobbyist community, and since even experts have varying opinions on the details, in no way would I say that I'm someone qualified enough to weigh in on it. I think it's better that individuals hear what the experts are saying, and decide what opinion they wish to follow. But again, maintaining sanitary conditions is the best way to make it a non-issue and not put yourself in the position of having to decide. Here's the video on whether or not to euthanize: ua-cam.com/video/5WEewtof3w8/v-deo.html I hope this helps!
@@MrLundScience Wow...greatly appreciate the long form response. Very cool. You'd get a kick out of my yard. We get snakes, lizards, geckos, gators, and just about every native Florida butterfly in the garden, but I only keep Monarchs and Queens. Even found a great leopard moth caterpillar and gave him a temporary home until he grows up, Anyway, I may try switching to bleaching them, but I'm trying to make a sustainable cycle of Milkweed, so if I'm always cutting and bleaching, I'm afraid I won't be able to keep up with the food demand. I get a lot of joy out of raising them, so I intend to find a way to do it responsibly and in a sustainable fashion. Thank you for making these videos, at least I'm armed with the understanding of why I lose some of my chrysalides and know how to potentially save them.
If people are taking the time to watch the videos and also take the time to leave comments that contain questions, I feel I owe them the respect of putting thought into the answer. That, and I'm a fast typist. However, in the height of the season, it can take me a few days to sometimes get through them all! And each year, the number of comments waiting are larger and larger. I hope I can keep it up. Your back yard DOES sound awesome. Not sure if you've check out any of my "Herp Quest" videos, but I'm trying to get a video for just about any reptile or amphibian native to Michigan. Just a personal fun goal. If you enjoy those guys too, you might enjoy those. Since I've been bleaching, OE has pretty much been a non-issue. It wasn't a large one to begin with, and I still test those that emerge as adults, but I am very glad to know about it now. Good luck!
Hello, Can you tell me if I need to disinfect my milkweed plants? If I go to all the trouble to bleach the eggs and feed them clean milkweed they may land on my plants when they return to lay eggs that may have the OE.
Greetings Deb! To properly answer your question, I need to find out what you mean by disinfecting your "plants". Do you mean, disinfecting the plant while it is all together, still in the ground? If so, I definitely don't recommend that. It will get chemicals into your yard (or wherever the plant is) and that's not usually a good thing. If you mean disinfecting the leaves that have been removed from a plant and are being used to feed, yes, I'd recommend doing so if you're willing to put in that time and effort. Here is a video I made on bleach treating eggs to kill OE that may be on the egg itself: ua-cam.com/video/oZYzzcGiZRA/v-deo.html And here's a video I made on bleach treating the food leaves that you offer to your caterpillars: ua-cam.com/video/2FE9646Z9xs/v-deo.html I hope those can help, and I hope I answered the question you asked.
I have a large monarch farm in a converted bird cage on my screened patio in SW Florida. I have tiny black flies, 1/8th inch or less, that are causing distress I believe, on my J -hangers and other cats. They also attach/land on the chrysalis. Could they be biting, causing the cats to twitch? I've cleaned all three levels thoroughly. But the flies returned. Any ideas how to get rid of them??
Greetings Doree. It's tough to give sound advice without seeing all the details in a personal way, but based upon what you are saying, I don't know that you could get rid of the flies without great effort, and even then, they could still persist. If you've already gone lengths to try and prevent them from entering the area the J-hangers and chrysalides are, then I'd say, relocate the chrysalides and J-hangers. Not everyone has a screened in porch as I do to hang chrysalides in, but if I didn't have such a porch, I'd be using an aquarium. Finding a large used one is usually easy enough to do, but of course, depends upon your area where you live. But with a large aquarium, a string of yarn could be hung across it, and then chrysalides, once formed, could be relocated to that area, and it could be kept indoors. Is that an option for you?
@@MrLundScience Thanks for the reply. I've deduced that the flies are fruit flies, prevalent in my husband's compost pile when watermelon and canteloupe are in season! I've covered the compost and think I've gotten rid of the flies. I've seen many chrysalides that have tiny burrowed holes where the flies have actually sucked out the innards. Devastating! I've had a hard time relocating chrysalides, sure it takes a lot of practice, but it's heartbreaking when I lose one or more. I've been using my hot glue gun to connect the tip of the chrysalis to a cake rack I've connected to the cage. I learned about the glue gun idea from The Butterfly Palace in Branson MO. They import thousands of fresh chrysalides of all species of butterflies from Costa Rica for their huge display, using hot glue to attach to individual plastic cup lids. Very interesting. Have you had any experience or heard of the toxicity of the milkweed plant to humans? I know that animals have died consuming the plant. Last year I had at least 4 incidents of eye maladies after working with the milkweed plants and touching my face or rubbing my eyes before washing my hands. My opthalmologist was buffled for months of my blindness/fuzzy sight episodes. He would treat my eyes with shots and drops till my sight returned, only to see me a month later with the same ailment. I finally realized that it happened after I clipped my milkweed to feed my caterpillars. I've researched, but found no other incidences. Now I am diligent in washing my hands and tools each time I touch my milkweed. Love your series!
If fruit flies are attacking your chrysalides, I must admit, that's the first time I've heard of such a thing happening. I don't know that fruit flies have the mouth parts to do such a thing, which you have described as burrowing. Are you certain that it is fruit flies that have done this? I'm also not aware of anything that burrows into the chrysalis, but I admit, that doesn't mean there isn't something that does. I do know that tachinid flies inject eggs into caterpillars, and their larvae develop in the caterpillars and chrysalides, coming out of the chrysalides eventually. When this happens, usually a white stringy thing hang from where the larva emerged. As for milkweed and humans, as it is poisonous to some degree, it would make sense that it's possible to get those chemicals into sensitive areas such as eyes and have an effect. I haven't heard of this happening either, but I don't have high doubts about it either. Definitely a good practice to wash hands after coming into contact with sap from the plant. Good luck in your efforts!
@@MrLundScience Hi. Am I certain it's fruit flies? I'm not certain of anything, but the flies finally disappeared after I stirred the compost up. Haven't seen any damaged chrysalis this week, and put out 12 butterflies so far. I've researched tachinid flies and don't think that's what I have. I'll keep working on it. Thanks for taking the time to answer.
I knew this would be asked eventually... Yes, the freezer is considered the most humane way, and thus, that's what I did. If placed in an envelope, the butterfly won't be increasing its stress by fluttering around. After that, the envelope can be placed in the freezer. Afterwards, there are two options I see as recommended as far as what to do with the body. The BEST option, is that the body should be burned in order to fully destroy the spores. The envelope can just be placed in the fireplace while the log is going. The other option, and this would be only if someone has a real educational purpose for it, would be to thaw the Monarch, and then properly spread and mount the specimen. This should only be done for educational purposes, and could be donated to a classroom. However, I must fully urge, Monarchs prepared this way must NOT be placed somewhere (ebay or the like) for sale. There needs to NOT be a market for these animals, as it would only encourage more to capture, kill, and try and profit from. (I just needed to say all of that so it's been said. I don't have any reason to think you yourself would want to do that!)
Do you have a Facebook or social media page? I would like to send you information to send you info regarding a citizen science monitoring page with resource tools for the monarch caterpillar.
I am not part of the Facebook revolution and do not currently use it. I'm not sure that after recent events I'll ever start. However, I am available on Twitter. My strictly science account on there is @MrLundScience and I have a second account that is science, music, politics, or just about anything, which is @TungstenClan.
Bacteria = cells with no nucleus, protozoans are single cells with a nucleus each. So it can't be a bacteria and protozoa in the same time. Sorry if one feels it pedantic. But it's an important distinction...
What type microscope can I get to be able to see the eggs better.. I have a lens on my phone that enables me to see them but it’s shaky with me holding it
Well, first, do you have a microscope? That's the essential tool for OE testing. I've tried using common store bought magnifiers, and even combined them, and still have not been able to see the spores without a microscope. With that being said, it is 100% up to the individual whether or not they choose to OE test. I certainly think it's important, but you need to make sure you have a plan if the test results show a positive result for OE, meaning, yes, OE spores are present. If a Monarch has OE spores on them, releasing them to the wild can do more harm than good to the species as a whole. The most humane way to keep them out of the population is to euthanize them by placing them in an envelope, and then the envelope in the freezer. It can be tempting to want to house them and care for them as if they were pets, but in doing this, you ensure that OE spores will be everywhere in whatever you house them in, and thus, you risk contamination of your other Monarch environments. So, I don't think I can answer this question for you, but it's something you'll have to ask yourself and decide for yourself.
I can, and I can't... First, have you seen this follow up video I did that shows how a handheld microscope (much more affordable) can be used to be effective in testing? ua-cam.com/video/32IqyxjOUfM/v-deo.html Second, UA-cam is a bit funny about "endorsements". There's a very fine, not so well defined line, and thus, I stay far away from it. So, I can't recommend one, but I can say that if you type "hand held microscope" into a preferred online shopping website, some very affordable, effective options come up! Good luck!
An easy way to do that would be to upload your image somewhere and then provide the link here in the comments. That would allow anyone reading the comments to see it. Another option would be to tweet it to me if you have a Twitter account. My handle on Twitter is @MrLundScience.
Happy to do so. It's tough talking about these downsides, but, we have to know what we're getting into, I think. The devil you know is better than the devil you don't.
I began with Monarchs by accident. I brought home a flowering plant that I found out was milkweed. Eggs were on it. Catapillars emerged and we got a few monarch butterflies. So I began getting more milkweed and the process began. 6 months ago I noticed some Chrysalis turning black. Some produced butterflies, others died. The Monarchs that lived came back to lay eggs. I'd see newborn cats for a few days but then they disappeared. I just had 14 new cats. It went down yo 12, then 9 and I ended up with 4. 3 went off to Chrysalis
While none of us are really fans of OE, you gotta admit, it's a very interesting, innovative life cycle. Learning about parasites is always so interesting, I think.
Your video interests me, but that beginning with a bunch of chrysalides apparently hanging outdoors, vulnerable to predators concerns me...can you comment on that please? Even if it was just for a 'cool picture' you are giving the idea to the uninformed that they can do something like that without consequence
I understand your concern. I would point out, though, that these videos aren't necessarily single one-shot videos, but a series of them. I've shown often that this cord that I hang in the summer is in a screened in porch. I've thoroughly covered this in the core of the series, Parts 1 - 5. Wasn't meant to be just a "cool picture". This was a year where I found only 30 Monarchs that summer. This was more to document the height of that year, which wasn't much of a height. I don't operate in a way that attempts to get cool footage at the expense of the Monarchs.
Yes, I understand, but besides many have not watched all of those parts to know that, many are also posting a single link in monarch groups and such...so they may have no idea and find your rope idea cute or useful. And from the little bit you showed in this video, it's not obvious that it's indoors. Just my thoughts as I've become somewhat concerned about folks I see raising monarchs who don't bother to get even a little bit of education on what they are doing... :(
Again, I do hear and understand your concern. However, it would not be reasonable to expect that I will be able to troubleshoot all of the different ways that some might make incorrect assumptions, as there's multiple incorrect assumptions people could make. I think it's reasonable that I should be able to trust that your average person would understand that placing Monarchs, be they in the caterpillar stage or in the chrysalis stage where predators have access to them is a risk. However, at the same time, if someone wishes to hang them in this way in their yard, I wouldn't hold that against them. If they hung 100 chrysalides in their yard this way, statistically in nature, only 10 would have made it from eggs to adults. That they were able to help out these hypothetical 100 make it to the chrysalis is already a large help. Let's take it to the extreme - if 80 of those chrysalides were taken out by predators, and only 20 make it to adulthood, well statistically that's still twice as good as nature would have given them. It's still a help. There have been multiple people over the years who have taken in eggs, raised them to caterpillars for a while, and then, had to go on a vacation. I've advised that if they need to cease their raising for whatever life may throw at them, be it a vacation or a surgery, or what have you, that placing the caterpillars back in the wild (preferably spread out on enough plants to allow them enough food) that this is completely a viable option. If they helped make sure the eggs hatched and that they made it through some caterpillar stages, they've already increased their chances. If they wish to quit half way and allow nature to take over from there, that's up to them, and respected, as they did still help. And needless to say, when placing those caterpillars back out there in nature, certainly predators can get to them. If you're concerned about folks attempting to raise Monarchs without bothering to get a proper amount of education to do it, hey, I share that concern. But, if people decide they want to raise eggs to the chrysalis stage, and from there, place them back into nature, that's their choice, and as it has helped the Monarchs make it a good portion of the way, I would respect that choice.
Yes I get you but in nature you don't see dozens of chrysalides on a string out in the open in nature. They are hidden, under non-milkweed plants and outdoor furniture and various places where they are as hidden as they can reasonably figure out. Not out in the open for every predator to find. As for putting caterpillars back in the yard, it's certainly better than abandoning or euthanizing them. But I personally have noticed that caterpillars raised in captivity from a young or egg age end up eating a lot more, presumably because they realize they are 'safe' and just go for it. Ones I have found in large size don't seem to catch up in terms of their feasting...would be better on them, I think, to just stop taking in eggs or cats at some point before the trip. And seriously, I've run across people doing the strangest things like one who had basically a flipping obstacle course for an eclosure cage...heaven forbid one should fall and need to climb back up! I have literally seen people who are 'raising' monarchs ask what they eat, no joke.
How did you come up with 250,000 years, it sounds quite arbitrary. I like your videos and learn alot, but please stick with the science and not random time speculation.
Thanks for these videos. Middleburg, FL Last week aquired a plant from Home Depot. While, in Home Depot my spouse seemed bothered by the infested plants that had lots of caterpillars on them. I quickly bought one lest other customers freaked about the caterpillars on the plants. Stupidly I didn't even pay attention to the type of plant even though I've been planting Natives in my small yard.
The plant turned out to be non native Scarlet milkweed.
More caterpillars hatched. The plant was practically gone so I sent my spouse to Home Depot for a 2nd plant without any caterpillars on it. But, It must have had eggs as we have more caterpillars.
Crash Course in Monarchs. LOL
Seems a bit late in the season for NorthEast Florida and caterpillars?
Still learning.
I've ordered Swamp Milkweed seeds for next year. From The Seed and Garden Exchange (usually a trading seeds group)
Hope I can be a better helper next year. Even if I'm not raising them and just trying to grow milkweed.
If I can figure out the Native Milkweed.
Thanks for the Crash Course of Videos.
When I raised them in Florida I had a handful with OE and it was honestly pretty scary. Thank you for sharing your knowledge!
I just started testing today and super unfortunate he's infected😭😭😭😭 thanks for teaching this to us.
Very sorry that this happened, but thank you for being willing to test!
I’m a veterinarian but I really haven’t been dealing with insects ever. And I got some milkweed just has a pollinator in my yard. Within days I saw a monarch flitting about. Then days later I found a caterpillar. I was happy to let them live in the wild. Until I saw yellow jacket trying to drag one of them off leaf and stinging it and killed it
So I did initial research on how to find the eggs and larva and how to care for them them in an enclosure etc. I now have a couple of stages in the six different enclosures I have. But I’ve had some sick caterpillar’s. Two were either instar 4 or they were very small inStar five and they were just hanging straight down until they died. One from the top of an enclosure. The other from a leaf. When it looked like it had a puncture wound or some sort of clear yellow who is coming out of it but I didn’t see anything on the other one. Now I’m freaking out about which ones are sick. If I see a caterpillar that’s not eating I’m terrified he’s sick but I don’t have a 15 and closures for each individual caterpillar. Also all the ones that have gone into a chrysalis which are 6, Or along the edge of the enclosure. Not tons of room to move about when they come out but I just want to leave them alone. Also I live in Center California and I assume they don’t wanna be in my air-conditioned house but I also assume they don’t want to be in direct sunlight. I’m having a hard time finding information about what I should be doing it. Any suggestions deeply appreciate it
I have ordered milkweed seeds and will be growing my own. I bought my first milkweeds online but those are the ones that were just growing outside and everything was doing fine. Then I went to a local nursery and only has local in species and doesn’t use any kind of pesticides and they were doing fine now I have gotten some more because Renee had a milkweed and sources from another nursery that promise they don’t use any kind of pesticides or chemicals… And I did see a lot of aphids on their plants and some ladybugs and other things so I figured they were fine. But it does seem like since then caterpillars have not been well. It could be there just to that stage… Although I do have the six very healthy looking chrysalides.....Who knew butterfly raising would be so stressful?
I’ve been raising butterflies for over 20 years. OE From what I understand has always been around. Any light frost will kill tropical milkweed just like any other milkweed. They’ve tested them for OE in areas where they overwinter and many times 90% or more are positive for it. I have about 400 chrysalises right now, and here in South Texas, during this season they’re pretty much all supposedly carrying it. Ive seen probably 3-4 misshapen chrysalises this year, All of which were because something was pushing on them or they fell during initial pupa stage.
It’ll happen out of a few hundred. I remember one year about 12 years ago where we had 95% of her monarchs die inside the chrysalis or they hatched completely deformed. Exactly how they describe OE. That was the one year my parents hired the pest control people and they fumigated the outer border of the house. Insecticides/pesticides, cars and loss of host plant habitat are the main reasons the monarchs are losing numbers. Tropical milkweed grows quickly. That’s the difference between it and most local varieties. The last few years I’ve come to the conclusion it’s mostly hysteria. Don’t stress about it
Also this guy in the video that seems to know a lot about it doesn’t seem to know that it’s actually a protist parasite, not a bacteria
They do well in a mesh enclosure outside the house. Yhe neef yhe changes of temperatures day snd night to become strong . The red headed fly is their enemy , protect them from her. Keep the enclosure closed . Turn never your back on the enclosure , a fly could fly into it while you clean it. And remove the poop regularly, keep it clean. While the chrysalis is soft it could het stung by another insect that might inject an egg inside it while its soft. Enjoy the raising of the monarchs. Collecting the eggs right after the female Monarch has laid them and following her visually where she had been to give her the time to do it. If the Monarch is not going to the flowers and it is the female it will be laying eggs Females have no dot in their lower lines of their wings. All lines are clearly straight in their wings.
I clean the leaves from any dirt. But watch out first if there is a Monarchs egg on it
What you're describing is almost for sure parasitization of the caterpillars by Tachinid flies...(AKA T-flies) and you need to know about them, hopefully, you can save your home from becoming nothing more than a Tachinid breeding farm where Monarch cats never make it to adulthood as has happened at my home in Ventura, CA..
Tachinid flies… I planted a bunch (30 plants)of Milkweed in my backyard this year and started raising Monarchs. The first month or so they thrived with no problems then the caterpillars started dying right when they went into the J-stage, what should have been the last few hours before transforming into a chrysalis... They went from J to hanging limp... And Tachinid maggots crawled out of their sides soon after. They crawled around and soon turned into very tough pupae. This started happening to more and more cats. Until now the only cats I can get to the adult butterfly stage have to come from the eggs I collected off my plants before they'd become the prey of tachinid flies. I'm thinking about destroying all my milkweed because my efforts to save the monarchs have just produced a far bigger threat to them than the benefits they get from me trying to help them... I have a huge area just saturated with tachinid flies. They'd probably be good for a garden because I find all sorts of other moth and beetle grubs sick and dying from tachinid flies injecting their eggs into them... I know this because I have brought in their bodies and watched the tachinid maggots crawl out of them. My 30 milkweed plants in my backyard at this point are nothing but very productive tachinid breeding farms and they're infecting every caterpillar that hatches from the 50 or monarch eggs their butterflies come and lay every day. BUT THEY ARE DEATH TO MONARCH CATS... I can't tell you how angry and depressed this makes me. I spent a lot of time and effort trying to save the monarchs but now I see for sure why, sadly, extinction will probably be their fate. Everybody is saying habitat destruction and loss of wild milkweed are the major reasons for their declining numbers but I disagree. At least not around here in Ventura County...… It’s tachinid flies beyond any shadow of a doubt…
I know whole wild fields of beautiful, lush milkweed with monarchs flitting around in it, feeding and laying eggs. I have verified the eggs are being laid and they are fertile, If you search very hard you can find tiny 1st, 2nd and very occasionally even 3rd stage instars but no surviving cats past 3rd stage instar... Tachinid flies...
If you watch closely you can see the flies attack a cat and in a split second insert a T-fly egg in it and rapidly fly off. The cat will drop off the plant, and thrash around wildly after that for over a minute, it must hurt very badly. I've brought those bitten cats into my house and raised them in screened containers, they inevitably die in the J-hanger stage. They just go limp and are obviously dead. A couple days later T-fly maggots will come crawling out the side of the dead cat. The first couple time these infected cats died I didn't notice the dead bodies until after the maggots had exited. I know this because 4 or 5 days later T-flies started showing up inside the terrarium I had my cats in.
Thank you for addressing this VERY IMPORTANT subject Mr. Lund! Once in awhile on my Facebook group the issue of O.E. comes up and I even get some of my members that DON'T have the heart to euthanize them when infected with the protozoan but it's a MUST! I euthanize mine, if they need to be, by placing in a zip-lock baggie and place it in the freezer. When it comes to dealing with O.E., you DEFINITELY want to be SURE you're not contributing to O.E. infections by releasing infected monarchs. Thanks again for preparing this video on a topic that is a MUST view for people raising monarchs, especially in huge numbers. John U.
Thanks for the support. I still feel egg dripping off my face, though, from saying "bacteria". Sheesh! I'll be changing the thumbnails too as soon as I get the chance.
Upcoming videos this summer will include OE prevention. Not enough just to show how to test for it. The rest of the conversation is more important: How do we keep it from happening!
Also, how do you feel about invasive species? That's what the upcoming rap song will be about, which should be released first week of March. Hope you dig it!
While not a fan of "rap" music, since you're doing it and it's for a GREAT cause, I guess I can "dig it!" LOL! Yes, what you will be addressing in O.E. prevention is VERY important and it's not that hard to do at all. Simply disinfecting with a 5% bleach solution to water will do the trick. There's also a way to disinfect the eggs as well. One video I saw this individual actually removed the eggs and briefly exposed them to the solution, then rinsed them off. Looked like a complicated process. I would think that just the leaf with the egg being dipped in the solution briefly would do the trick. Anyway, look forward to seeing your videos when you release them! Keep on doing a GREAT job! Saving monarchs is critical and the more people are exposed to this message and the "How To's" will make a BIG difference! ;-) :-)
VERY IMPORTANT to deal with invasive species. The Hawk Mountain Sanctuary that I visit frequently just down the road from me feel it's very important as well. They have "sawgrass" that is growing on the sanctuary grounds in different areas and they are battling it BIG-time!!
You are inspiring and I thank you again. How can I accurately recognise the early Instars ? Ist Instar is easy but 2nd 3rd and 4th Instar Catapillars. Off to find a Microscope
John U ,can you send me the link to your Facebook group. You can find me on FB as Graham Bertram Foster, from Oceanside California.
I'm glad you exist! I live down in South Florida and had no idea what was going on until I saw this video. We've got work to do!
I was excited to see your presentation on this topic. Recently on the central gulf coast, OE has become a bit of a hot topic, as it relates to native vs tropical (aka Mexican) milkweed species. Because we rarely freeze, the tropical milkweed (Asclepias Curassavica) does not die back regularly either (like other perennial North American native varieties, eg. a. tuberosa, a. incarnata, or a. perennis). People in the South like A. Curassavica because it's pretty butterfly food and nurseries like it because it's easy to propagate (natives are notoriously hard to start). A. Curassavica is being blamed as an alleged harbor for OE year round in the South since some Monarchs do not make the journey back to Mexico, over-wintering here instead. Then, if any of them are infected, they pass it on to the migrating Monarchs later in the spring. In fact, I saw a monarch float passed me this morning (temp. about 70d F), and even recorded a female laying MANY eggs for over 30 min on Feb 5. I also had 5 caterpillars eat up any remaining milkweed I had in January before metamorphizing and going away (though, they may have died in the freeze). There are discussions and historical logs showing that Monarchs have been over-wintering south of Lake Pontchartrain in our micro-climate since the 1950's without incident, but others are suggesting out of an abundance of caution to remove A. Curassavica from gardens. A more moderate suggestion is simply to cut A. Curassavica back to about 6" in the winter to discourage Monarchs from staying here. The idea is that it's better to starve Monarchs to death than take a risk that A. Curassavica is perpetuating OE. Personally, I do not think I've seen signs of OE, so I have not cut back my tropical milkweed or my Gomphocarpus Physocarpus, but I monitor as many butterflies and caterpillars as I can while I try to get some kind of native milkweed to actually grow in the ground. I don't know if there's data related to infection rates along the migratory paths, and if those are higher along the gulf coast, but you can Google and see it's a lively topic along the I-10 corridor.
Great series! Keep up the good work!
Thank you for that quality and thorough information!
These were only posted a few days ago, but already, enough response has caused me to think there needs to be some research on my part, and possibly a video on how we can prevent OE spreading (more than just euthanizing those who have it). I'm looking into what tips are out there for people especially living in high OE areas as to what can they do to raise OE free Monarchs. I think that'll be a video out in summer, once I have some Monarchs here in Michigan to test out.
Thanks again for all that information. I learn new things often from viewers and their quality comments.
MrLundScience Since I'm not "raising" monarchs, only providing habitat, I wonder if there is a way to test for OE on the caterpillars. They are easier to catch, and if need euthanizing, will prevent the destruction of milkweed for others, plus the time and effort to catch adults.
I also wonder if you can use the tape to stick to plants and test them for spores?
I would have to imagine tape testing leaves could identify spores present. It'd be a load of work though! From what I'm reading online, there are ways to clean leaves before offering them to cats, and that might prevent their further spread. Research research research!
MrLundScience Do you Instagram your science and garden pictures?
I do not use Instagram at this time. I do have two Twitter accounts. @MrLundScience is the primary science account for any and all things science, including the Monarch videos. @TungstenClan is my other account which is more like my own personal account, but also is focused more on the Science Hip Hop that I produce.
Thank you for this! This is very important! Even though this is our first year doing this with the kids, I am taking this opportunity to educate them and the added weight to our responsibility!
Thank you for explaining OE and what has been happening to my monarchs this year. Last year we raised about 100 monarchs and had no issues. This year we are having a 70-80 percent mortality of the monarch in the chrysalis stage. We will watch your videos again and try to learn all we can to stop this infestation. It has been a very sad summer. Hopefully winter will kill any OE that might remain in the garden. We have never hoped for winter before.
I'm glad that these videos can help. I wanted to get them out ASAP last year so that before spring came, people could be equipped with potential solutions. I wish you luck!
OK been raising Monarchs in SW Florida for several years. We quit Monarchs in favor of swallowtails as every Monarch we tested was + for OE. Not just a few but >90% SAD!
This is a fantastic Monarch video series. Thank you. We live in mid-Missouri rural farming area. This area receives aerial crop spraying of various types. So milkweed out in the fields is all but gone. To offset this loss of habitat of milkweed I work to raise local milkweed "in town." Crops that contain milkweed is not good for the farmer. So I raise milkweed in town in small zones. I see Missouri DNR (Dept of Natural Resources) now has Monarch sites now at their Highway Rest stops. This is a great idea. I think we need to publicize growing milkweed "in town," more, along with establishing a fly-way from Mexico to Canada. Thanks for showing us how to help the Monarchs.
Some who raise Monarchs will become those who wish to take it further. Planting milkweed is definitely the number one way to help them, so certainly, people getting involved with addressing this at a community level will be necessary to achieve the long term goal of their populations become sustainable. It's great that you're thinking this way. Something I worry a bit about is the mowing of highway medians, which tends to be here in Michigan, a place that milkweed naturally starts sprouting. They have mowing schedules during the summer that are shorter than what time it takes for an egg to become an adult. There's no way around it...they must be mowing down a large number of eggs/caterpillars/chrysalides each time. But it will take some grass roots awareness to get something like that changed. I'm trying to look into what options I might have for approaching this.
Thank you so much for your understanding for those of us who are just getting started on a small scale. (I'm in Northwest Indiana.)
I planted my first milkweed last year and supplemented those with seeds from a plant I collected at the park. So this year I have a successful milkweed patch and am raising monarchs for the FIRST TIME EVER! My husband and I currently have one egg, one newly-hatched first instar, and one third instar in containers; I wake up in the morning hoping they are doing okay! Yep, just 3 monarchs for now. We purposely let another 2 eggs remain in the garden yesterday because we did not want to take on too much. That's our "level" at this moment.
I watched your video on disinfecting leaves & eggs and I think we will do that with our next batch, if we take this on a second time. But I appreciate your support & your compassion for those of us who are new to this. I think if you took a more hard-line approach I might just feel overwhelmed!
TY Mr. Lund! I have a registered Monarch Way Station in No. Ca. # 12833 and this is the first time that I have bleached all my Monarch eggs and Milkweed that I feed them. Sadly though, I do not have many Monarchs this year. Hopefully I'll still get some more. I do bring the eggs inside my house, bleach them and transfer them to a critter cage where they are safe indoors and feed them the bleached leaves. And I grow Native Narrow Leaved California Milkweed for them. TY again for pointing out what the "Monarch Farms" do! If I had one I'd make sure ALL the eggs were bleached and fed bleached MW leaves too.
You're certainly welcome. And, I want to be clear, I don't know that *all* Monarch farms act the same way...there could be some that operate very responsibly. I've just also had people tell me, first hand, that they have ordered Monarchs from some companies and the Monarchs were heavily infected. (Hmm...sounds like this should be tested out, huh?)
This really sucks.... I have had several failed hatch monarchs since about six years ago when there was a VERY small revival... all of the ones that failed apparently had this bacterium... I have had three deformed butterflies that I couldn’t figure out why and I literally cried because I knew they wouldn’t survive and I have had four that didn’t emerge and I can only assume it was OE which I didn’t even know about till this video. Thank you for informing me.
I have a video that shows how to test for OE here: ua-cam.com/video/pxXkAL1h2pw/v-deo.html
Next Raising Monarchs episode, though, will show how to do this even easier.
Really enjoyed your 5 part series on monarchs and OE! Ive purchased in the past very cheap "pocket microscopes" on ebay usually
Oh yes, they absolutely are! I use the microscope I do in this video because I already had it. This technology is much more affordable and pocket sized!
Hi, thank you so much for all of your videos. As you have mentioned, the very southern tip of Florida has a high amount of cases of OE. I live in Central FL and have been trying to help the monarchs since March. The milkweed plants I have bought look fairly healthy, even some w eggs or caterpillars already. But after a while a lot of my monarchs started not to hatch or hatched w OE :( I realized the plants I was getting come from South Florida... and I wondered if these plants could be carriers of OE spores on the plants??
look at his bleach your leaves and eggs vid!! super helpful.
Mr Lund, please be sure to see my reply to your reply to me on the When Adult Monarchs Can't Fly video. It is about OE and a non native milkweed widely sold in California. Thanks!
Did so, and replied. Thanks!
Thanks so much, Rich, I have learned a lot from you! I just started to raise the Monarch Butterfly for the very first time in my life since three weeks ago, 7/23/18. There were four eggs, and one died while it was a Caterpillar, and the other three turned Chrysalises. Within the last 30 hours, a female and a male turned into butterflies 20 hours apart from each other. They are big and beautiful! Another one is on the way, perhaps by early tomorrow morning. I love to see them transform into stages. I learn as I go mostly from you because you are very knowledgeable and thorough. In the OE Bacteria videos, you talked about the Microscope to test the butterflies whether or not they are infected with OE Bacteria before you release them, and I wonder where did you purchase it, and how much did it cost? I want to say thank you, and please continue to share with us, the ones who love and care for Monarchs. Blessings!
Greetings Viviane! The word "thorough" in your comment warmed my heart. That's definitely what I strive for. I sometimes think I talk too much, though, but it's in an attempt to cover all the details. Tough to judge when it's too much, but I appreciate that feedback.
With the microscope video you saw, I think you saw the first one with that large clunker of a microscope. You don't need to get a huge one like that which would run near $200. I made a new video this season that shows a MUCH more affordable way: ua-cam.com/video/32IqyxjOUfM/v-deo.html
With those microscopes, there are many options from many companies available, and Amazon or Ebay or other online stores have them. I've also seen a couple at some stores that have a kids science section. They're out there. So, one needs not spend a fortune to take care of OE.
Thanks for getting into this and doing what you can to help out the Monarchs! Ask questions as you feel the need to, and welcome aboard!
Thanks so much for your fast reply! I will definitely purchase the microscope later today. I will test the OE before I release them. I have 2 females and 1 male. They are sooo beautiful and very healthy. They are quite big and bright. I'm a little slow in releasing them, but I want to do it right. So, I watched your video of how to feed them, and I feed them since yesterday. BTW, you are doing absolutely great, please do not think that you were talking too much. You remind me of my Dad. When my siblings and I were young, every time he explained and taught us something especially homework, we thoroughly understood and we never have to study it over and over again. He was a Dentist, a Professor and Vice Dean of Dental School. There are a lot of teachers out there, but the thorough ones are THE best Teachers! When I watch your videos, I don't want it to end! This is the main reason why I chose to learn from you and follow you! Blessings!
Well, thank you again. Those are quite strong, kind words. We live in a world that has less and less time for things, unfortunately. Sound bites and quick clips are all the rage. Real learning, of anything, takes time. I try in the videos to troubleshoot, and think ahead as to what new questions might pop into someone's head about the topic because of the video, and preemptively answer those questions too. So, I truly appreciate that feedback, for sure. Some have commented before that the videos are too long (not many, but some) and when that's happened, I decided to watch the video and see what part I would have been willing to not have in there. I usually don't find any. Tickling cat videos can be under a minute. But to learn something, especially something that has many details to it that can be important, likely videos will remain between 10 and 15 minutes, and if it's a very important topic, even close to 20. (But I have an unofficial rule that I *should* be able to cover a topic in less than 20 minutes, or I'm not explaining it as concisely as I should be able to. Richard Feynman taught me that!)
Hello! And thank you so much for making this series. I live in Tampa currently and we're embarking on our first butterfly season as a family. I have to admit to feeling so depressed seeing those FL numbers of OE. I'll take your advice on the testing but have to wonder, is there much point in doing this in Florida where the numbers are so high? Are we doomed to be doing more harm than good releasing monarchs here?
I understand what you are saying and I am not going to release them with OE either! Releasing them with OE will probably help reduce the population and we want to increase the population!
It can definitely depend upon where you are. Where OE isn't prevalent, it's probably a good idea to not release, as you'd be artificially causing OE to be out there "more" than it normally would be. But, in areas where OE is very prevalent, euthanizing all that you rear that have it might mean euthanizing every one of them. For these reasons, I made a video that discusses the details so that people can make an informed decision: ua-cam.com/video/5WEewtof3w8/v-deo.html
omg I need this last time I raised a monarch it had the OC infection
I live in south FL but also spend the summers in NJ. Last summer I raised several butterflies from eggs - black swallowtails & monarchs. All was fine with them and I looked forward to doing it again in FL this past spring with the red & yellow tropical milkweed I planted. I had 10 monarch caterpillars make chrysalises with 9 emerging as butterflies, but every one of them had deformed wings and couldn't fly. It seems they all had OE. I had no idea about the difficulties in raising them in FL, and your old data chart seems to confirm that. However I think your chart's percentage is a bit low based on my own experience. This summer in NJ I raised 22 monarchs from eggs so far and only 2 of those had problems. It seems they both were parasitized by a tachinid fly. The first one had 2 maggots emerge from its body while it was in the j-position. The 2nd one had 9 maggots emerge while it was in the 5th instar. Hoping to have better luck in FL next season and plan to test for OE. Thanks for your videos - they are quite informative and helpful!
I'm learning more and more about Monarchs and flies. They're definitely not fruit flies, and may be a tachinid fly, although mine don't look anything like the tachinid I've seen online. But one thing for sure, I'm not alone in this battle.
Tachinid flies are quite variable. They aren't just one species, but an entire family of over 8,000 different species. Thus, what tachinid flies you have seen online could just be one species and not the specific species you have encountered. Just FYI. And from species to species, while some are similar, many look quite different from others.
First, thanks Rich - you are the reason I started raising monarchs this year. I would not have been able to do it without your excellent series. And, through your videos and this process, I've decided that I'm definitely planning to raise milkweed instead next year.
I just released my 5th monarch today about 4 hours after he eclosed. As of the release, it looks to me like his probiscus has not zipped, and I've found that same thing with 3 of the 5 i've released in the past few weeks. (I was devistated with the first one and had to watch your video and decide how to deal with it - I finally chose the 'let nature take it's course and let the monarch fly while it can' route... After watching this vid I will definitely test all future monarchs but I'm wondering why I keep getting the split probiscus - is this a characteristic of an OE deformity? Any reason why this would keep happening? Could I be mistaking the split probiscus?
I also had 3 cats that were forming chrysallids last week perish- one fell from its pad and later turned black, and the other two that were in the same enclosure couldnt complete the transformation into the chrysallis - the chrysallis started to emerge but after 1.5 days they hung there and started to shrivel (all of them later went into the freezer.) That is part of why I have decided on going the raising milkweed route (aside from also knowing that this is a better help to the monarchs than raising them.)
Yes. We have many dying & dead caterpillars, whereas we had NONE last year. We released about 20 healthy ones last year. Rick doesn’t talk about what causes the cats to die….so are the cryssilides (5) infected?
Thank you for all that you do Dr Lund! Someone may have already said this but what about letting the infected ones live inside (of course under the right circumstances) when possible rather than killing?
Greetings Gift!
That's certainly an option, but a risky one. Most who have taken on the extra effort of testing their Monarchs for OE are then usually rearing more than just say, the 5 that a parent might raise with their kids for a summer project. So, if someone's rearing larger numbers, say 20 - 50 or more in a season, having OE infested adults at their home runs the risk of the spores somehow getting into their process. Is it possible for someone to house and care for one or two infested adults, and keep them well away from the caterpillars they are also rearing? Is it possible to keep tools used in rearing well away from the infested individuals? Is it possible that someone could be diligent enough to always make sure to thoroughly wash their hands whenever they've been around the infested adults? All is possible. And yet, as Ian Malcolm in Jurassic Park taught us, "Life finds a way." Many see it as putting the ones they are rearing at an unnecessary risk to OE infection, and thus, don't go for that option. It only takes one spore accidentally transferred to the milkweed leaves you're using for feeding to cause another caterpillar to become infected, so many do what they can to avoid this. In the end, it is up to the individual.
(Just one more thing as an aside: I'm not a doctor. I have no doctorate degree, and thus, have not earned such a title.)
Thank you so much. I enjoy and learned tons from your videos. I’m very new to this and have 3 in a cocoons. I will keep my eyes on their health
Hey, you're very welcome, and thanks for your interest in their health and plight!
MrLundScience I hope you make more videos again.
Hey! Great video! I'm so glad you addressed the issues with the east coast Monarchs. I honestly didn't think it could be a problem here. I'm definitely on the lookout now. Have 5 chrysalides at the moment. When should I be on the lookout for the brown from OE? Because I'd rather destroy the whole chrysalis, than to destroy the butterfly once it emerges.
Greetings Elodie!
Have you watched the recent video about chrysalis issues? ua-cam.com/video/wB8udbV3kOY/v-deo.html
In that video, I make the argument that we shouldn't give up on the chrysalis. That there can be times when it looks like it could have problems, yet, healthy, OE free Monarchs can still emerge. Admittedly, in that video I never have any brown chrysalides.
Now, I fully understand and respect your wish to not have to be in the position of having a live butterfly that is infected with spores. Still, it's just not my personal position to end a chrysalis's chance to surprise me. I look at it from the perspective of, "I don't know for sure OE is present until I verify the presence of spores on the adult with a microscope." That's my...I don't know..."code", I suppose is the best word, that I operate under. Another reason, too, though, is that how "brown" does it need to be before I would draw the line? Since how much brown it has can vary, I avoid this. Certainly, if it was severely brown, that's much more obvious than just slightly brown. But where do we draw the line with "brown enough"? I don't wish to draw such a line, especially since the line of "spores or no spores on an adult" is a pretty obvious and firm one. If I were to recommend to others when it's brown, it should be euthanized, that would create many problems on my hands, and for good reason. Some might be harming/ending a chrysalis when there's just a little brown, and it didn't actually have OE. Some might mistakenly see a chrysalis as brown, when it's just an off coloration compared to others, and mistakenly end it, thinking it had OE. Thus, this is an area with so many gray spots to it, I don't delve in there. But also, something that might help: It is the recommendation of some who study the OE parasite that a small amount of infection is still something that can be released. I've made it clear that from my perspective, I go with what Monarch Watch recommends, and euthanize if spores are present (something I've only had to do once). But, that is not a "rule" that I say everyone else needs to follow. It is up to the individual. I only advocate that the individual consider the information available, and then make their own informed decision. If you haven't seen it before, this video, which I admit, is quite lengthy to be thorough, shows what different experts have to say about the question of whether or not to euthanize. There is some variety to what they have to say: ua-cam.com/video/5WEewtof3w8/v-deo.html
Thank you so much!! That was super helpful. It's good to know that there can be some brown discolouration and its doesn't necessarily mean the Monarch will be infected with OE. I'll just have to buy a little microscope and test for OE myself. Thank you for your reply! Appreciated so much. Being from Southern Ontario, I will be thoroughly testing them next summer. Like you said, just because we are on the east doesn't mean OE isn't an issue, or could potentially be an issue.
Whereabouts in southern Ontario? Near Sarnia or London?
Toronto :)
Thankyou for sharing this information. The first year I released 29 butterflies, and last year I only released 8 butterflies. I still see this year the egg hatches and then the cat dies as soon as it eats part of the leaf. This year I want to change this outcome. Thankyou.
You're certainly welcome. Great to have you aboard!
i was raising painted ladies and one of them did not quite make it and i was really sad :( it was such a pain seeing one of those pretty creatures DIE
Agreed. It's always sad. Nature is beautiful, but nature isn't very kind to insects. It's unfortunately part of the territory we deal with if we are going to raise them. Still, the benefits outweigh the drawbacks severely!
Not a good week for me down here in South Florida. My husband bought me a microscope and I just used it for the first time today. Both of my test subjects were obviously not going to make it so it was no surprise but it was still hard to see! The 1st one was loaded. The 2nd was infected as well. Sad! Neither could fly so it was not a surprise as I said but still. One more to go out of this batch and I'm thinking its not going to be good since they all were caterpillars together.
Here in Arizona I just collected some milkweed seeds from my garden to further plant after I "cold shock" them to sprout. I have several verities of milkweed growing & am looking for further native verities to add to collection. Am interested in learning about some of the verities that may be "OE" associated, research will help. Nice nautilus back drop.
When it comes to OE, to my knowledge, there isn't a milkweed that is associated with it, other than OE can be more heavily found in some regions, where also a milkweed plant is more prevalent. In other words, it's correlated, but not causal. So, for example, Tropical Milkweed is more likely to have OE spores, but only because where it is native, the weather conditions allow the plant to not have a winter purge, which also purges the OE. If a Tropical Milkweed plant were grown in a more temperate clime, it would not necessarily still be more likely to have OE spores on it than a nearby native plant. Does that make sense? Glad you like the wall painting. We very much enjoy that room!
I have truly enjoyed your videos. I’m in Maine and hoping that OE infections are low. Thus far I have 9 chrysali hanging, 3 have emerged and appeared to be perfect however all 3 have been unable to hold on to any type of perch. They appear to just be too weak and fall onto their backs. Despite multiple attempts to assist them, I have been unsuccessful . I’m awaiting the delivery of a microscope to test for OE. My question is, could there be some other problem? Last year we were 100% on successful releases and had never heard of the OE parasite. Now I watch and wait.
Greetings Patricia. I'm not too sure about healthy looking Monarchs not being able to perch. If they seem weak, it could be something to do with how much they were able to take in of food prior to the adult stage. But, that might not be it at all. Just a guess. Have you tried feeding them a honey water solution to see if some boosted energy can improve the situation?
Here's a video on how to feed them: ua-cam.com/video/CAks8lJ9SDY/v-deo.html
I bought a kid's starter kit from amazon of painted lady butterflies and then found your channel to start planning another batch of cats. Now my painted ladies are all adult butterflies except that two of the chrysalises were strange looking and never emerged plus my first butterfly came out in very sad shape (crinkled wings, can't walk). All these symptoms sound like the OE you describe with the monarchs. Does this parasite affect other butterflies like painted ladies?
I'm horrified that a kid's science company would be selling cats with parasites and then those butterflies are getting release all over harming the local butterfly populations!
In the meantime I have three other adult butterflies that look fine but I'm hesitating to release them (or hope for some egg laying from them on the host plant I have in my garden) unless I know they are healthy.
Waiting for your response and thanks for this wonderful channel!
Greetings Dani.
I'm fairly certain from all that I've read, OE only affects Monarchs and Queen butterflies, which have a common ancestral lineage. It's quite likely that an ancestral version of OE parasitized the common ancestor of Monarchs and Queens, and has co-evolved with that lineage ever since. Whatever differences exist in the physiology of the Monarchs and the Queens these days is still similar enough that the OE can grow in both. But, I have not heard of OE ever harming any other butterfly. Still, that doesn't mean that Painted Laides don't have their own parasites. I'm just not at all versed in Painted Ladies (or really too many other butterflies). I can't speak on the specific company that sold you these, but I can say, I do know that there are some companies selling Monarch chrysalides (for things like releasing Monarchs at weddings, and the like). And I have heard from people that they have sometimes received a batch of Monarchs from such companies that were indeed infected with OE. Even if healthy, because this is a migratory species, shipping Monarchs into areas that are not part of their natural migratory path, or even are on their natural path but at unnatural times of the year can cause potential problems. I don't wish to smear any such companies... And I'm sure that there are some that do take very good care to make sure they are not releasing parasites. Even so, I just don't trust the fundamental idea of selling Monarchs for profit. If not careful, it has the potential to do further harm to an already troubled species. I have to balance that, though, with science companies that are just trying to make available caterpillars that can teach kids the valuable ideas of conservation and life processes. Many kids do get a lot out of such kits, and that, of course, I'm a fan of. It's a tenuous opinion I have of such practices.
Thanks for your reply!!
You're definitely welcome.
What do you do when its raining? Do u place the chrysalis in another place? Thanks for posting! Really like your videos and learning
Hi Rich! I found some eggs this year on my garden. I have been working hard to help them. I hace a chrysalis that turned kind of brownish and even though it didn’t fall or anything a bit of fluid came out of it. It was really close to another of my chrysalis which today started to present some brown marks on the top. Do you think that first chrysalis that died might have transmitted that to the other chrysalis? Is there something I can do to save the one that just got infected? Should I separate my other chrysalis to avoid this spreading more? I love your videos and I wish someday I can develop a system as good as yours to help more monarchs. ❤
I got my microscope yesterday, no parasites. She won't drink, this is day 2. I have watermelon, oranges made honey water, but also put some flowers that she has been staying on, so I'm hoping she's getting nourishment from them. Everything seems to be working ok tho. Tomorrow she will go free 😃
So cool to hear! I'm glad it's worked out and the microscope was able to function for you.
Nicely presented!
Thank you. I'm glad you approve. I was worried many would be upset with the choice of euthanizing. I hope people understand how it is for the greater good. The support is appreciated.
I just have to wonder if there's another vector involved in this circle? (moving spores around)
Grew a lot of milkweed in my yard this year and chaperoned the monarch caterpillars to emergence. We've seen 8 so far. 6 quite healthy, but most of them have bottom of their wings damaged. Found one yesterday that was very weak and appeared to have a wound on its body that was full of white dust. Similar to the white stripes on its underbelly. My friend says that's their usual color. Is this normal colors for the monarch, or is this some type of fungus that is eating away. It reminds me of how some cicada have a fungal infection that eats their body.
Thx!
The quick answer is, I don't know. I'd have to see what you are talking about to know. But, I can also say that I've never encountered a fungus growing on a Monarch. Could be something that happens, but I'm unaware of it. Sorry that I don't have a better answer for you. Perhaps try looking at as many images of Monarch abdomens online to get a feel for what they normally look like.
I had my caterpillars in an ice-cream bucket with a screen top. I was waiting for them to emerge from their chrysalis. One day I checked them and the bucket was full of little flies! This happened to three out of four. Only one butterfly emerged. Was this OE?
A cheaper, lower maintenance option for a microscope could be the Foldescope. I don’t have one personally, but it set at $40 and as thin as a credit card.
It does only work with slides but I’m sure you could fashion a makeshift slide
In order to present a more affordable, "at home" way to do this, I made a follow up to this video showing an alternative microscope. While I'm not endorsing any particular brand, these hand held scopes are usually under $20 and can get the job done.
ua-cam.com/video/32IqyxjOUfM/v-deo.html
Such a great explanation! Thank you
I am sorry that you lost the one monarch from your rearing project. One thing you might consider is preserving that specimen(pin and mount on a spreading board), and include detailed data of when/ where the ova was obtained, and the dates and times of the insect's development. Then place the specimen with the data into a Schmitt box or glass topped insect display drawer (which you can get from Bioquip). I realize that collecting may be frowned upon by some, but much of what we know about these creatures is based upon well curated, data rich collections. Look at it this way, properly mounted specimens can last for centuries, and there may be unanswered questions regarding a species that are preserved instead of discarded. In this case we need to put our emotions aside and adhere to the scientific method.
I fully agree with all said.
However, as I don't know which ones will have OE before hand, I'd really have to up the organization to catalog locations of all eggs found, and date them, and then keep location specific containers going so caterpillars don't get mixed up. That might add more time to my operation than I have, to be honest. However, I do still have that specimen. He's in the freezer to be mounted. I figure if you lose one to an infection, those are the ones to freeze and mount for educational purposes.
Those making Monarch jewelry, however, are really promoting a harmful trade. Even fake ones promote it. I can't get behind that, and would really hope people discourage actual bodies of Monarchs for decoration purposes. Last thing we want is Monarchs to be further hit by a market for them (which, unfortunately, is already developing).
I thought I liked monarchs the most but u win!
Are OE parasites dangerous to humans or pets ? My husband found a monarch butterfly that seems to not be able to fly so we’ve been keeping it shut in my art room on a plant in there . I watched your other videos trying to learn what’s best for the butterfly and how to feed it then I came across this video and was curious about whether we should be worried about this parasite getting on us , our kids or our pets . The pets are not allowed in the room though .
Hey Rich! I’ve raised 2 monarchs from first instar caterpillars and now both are turning black and orange! I can see the wing colours now! I have a question: my chrysalides are both close to emerging but are right next to each other. Can I still move them still? I hope I can! Thanks, Ewan.
Yep. If they aren't currently emerging, moving the chrysalis should be safe. Just be careful. Good luck, and great job!
Thanks and that’s exactly what I did. Guess what! Both of them emerged today! It was so cool to see it happen! Thanks for letting me know Rich.
Great to hear!
Hello! We had a wild monarch Caterpillar pupate in our front yard and we have been observing him for 12 days now. On day 10 the chrysalis began to turn black, and now on day 12 it is still black and the orange wings cannot be seen through the chrysalis. Is he dead? :(
It's not sounding good. And as this comment came about a week ago, if it's still there and black, I'd say it's time to call it. Sorry that this happened...
I read something about all butterflies having some OE. That can't be right...
Could you shed light on this? Thanks. :)
3 of my J Hangers just died today when parasites popped out of them! Yuck! I’m in LA, California and have never had a problem with this before in previous seasons! Help! Is it my milkweed plant? Im so sad this is happening. 😥thank you 🙏🏻
Sounds like tachinid fly parasite. 😥
Hi, really enjoy your videos. I have brought in 16 eggs in 5 days. Six hatched today and ate the fresh milkweed but appear to be black in color 5 hours later. Could you please give advice on what happened? I’m new at this and all of us are upset at what we are seeing. Please help. Thanks 🙏🏿
I'm a bit perplexed myself. When caterpillars turn black upon death, it usually is due to NPV virus. But, that usually doesn't take place until they are many days along in the 3rd, 4th, or 5th instar. I've never heard of it happening to caterpillars their first day. As far as I understood it, it would take much longer than 5 hours for the caterpillar to contract the virus, and for the virus to reproduce and cause the death and black coloration. Especially that you provided two hands held together as an emoji showing hope, I wish I had some better information to tell you, but I'm stumped on this one too...
Do you have others that have hatched that are doing well? Or since posting your comment, has this happened to more? To all?
Classroom teachers get butterfly kits for the classroom. Painted Lady butterflies emerge. Could they be spreading OE? I've never seen any discoloration.
OE is a parasite that only can use the Monarch butterfly or the Queen butterfly as a host. The parasite co-evolved with those two butterflies (and likely, their common ancestor) to use their specific physiology to get their life cycle job done. The Painted Lady just doesn't have the "right stuff" to allow the parasite to develop successfully, to my knowledge.
Is Tropical Milkweed any more likely to hold the OE parasite than local Milkweeds, when it is grown in the north and is killed by frost every fall? I think there is a lot of misunderstanding on this. People are saying the plant is the problem but I think it is the fact that it doesn't die in the deep south. I am in northern Delaware and tropical milkweeds are killed with the first frost here in October or November.
Hey Sparky. I agree, there's misunderstandings on many things about Tropical Milkweed. Partially, I think, this is because there's much still being researched about it. I don't know that I have the answers you seek. And also, I don't know that anyone does yet. To my current and incomplete understanding, the winter purge is what keeps OE numbers down in the north. Further, there are medicinal properties involved with the Tropical Milkweed plant, and this has shown some researchers that some Monarchs that are in the southern areas that don't receive a purge may have a behavioral trait that causes the females to prefer that plant for laying eggs. The reason being, that if the caterpillar feeds on Tropical Milkweed, it can help prevent the OE from developing as well. However, there is also research that suggests that the OE that *does* still develop in such Monarchs will be a more virulent strain of OE. That could mean, an untested Monarch that is infested with OE that was raised on Tropical Milkweed may transfer OE spores of a strain that is more virulent than others. That wouldn't be good.
For these reasons, I know that I wouldn't want to plant Tropical Milkweed here in Michigan. Further, I don't wish to introduce species that aren't naturally here anyway. Helping the Monarchs is important, but changing our local ecosystem in the process can cause unforeseen issues sometimes. And since Common Milkweed has larger leaves anyway, I go with those. I suppose the bottom line would be, when in doubt, go with what is naturally in your area.
i watch a youtube video ,the was from a news clip, that said to cut it down any milk weed left It was from Florida could not find the clip again.
Sparky, we apparently planted Tropical Milkweed here in Southern California, not knowing that it was Tropical, and in our climate it stays all year round which has turned out not to be a good thing. The first year was wonderful but now on the third year it apparently has collected OE from reuse of the same leaves plus the breeding goes on all year and many eclose in Winter, not good, plus we are seeing increasing numbers of misshapen ones emerge.
Thank you for making these videos...I have 4 Chrysilides and 5 more to raise. Is it too late to order the tags...I live in southern California.
You're most definitely welcome! Thanks for checking them out.
MrLundScience I still don't know if I should test and tag my monarchs...I live in Southern CA.
I know that there are tagging programs for those west of the Rockies. I have found this tagging program, for example: www.swmonarchs.org/tagging.php but I'm not familiar with this group. I imagine they're doing similar studies to what monarchwatch.org does with its tagging program. Whether or not you *should* is completely up to you, but as with most experiments, the more data, the better.
In testing for OE, that's an individual's choice. You will have to decide if you want to test or not. It takes more time, and in some cases, you need to not release the Monarch you just raised if it has a heavy infection. That would mean euthanizing it. So, I understand if some people won't want to do that, and this is also why, I'm not going to be someone to tell another whether they should or shouldn't test for OE. They have to make that decision for themselves based upon what they are comfortable with.
MrLundScience I understand and respect your response. I will think about testing and I will pray about it too! Thank you for the tagging info!
I am on the West coast. I have had two out of 15 that were infected. I did euthanize them. The others were stunningly beautiful. Thank you for this video.
I feel your pain with the two that didn't make it. Thank you for making the tough decision to help out the others have a greater chance of increasing the population.
Thank you for leaving this comment. I am also in the west. Over the past 3 years, the numbers of monarchs I have been seeing in a MW patch I help care for have gone from two three years ago to about 10 this year and I have seen females laying eggs but have only managed to find one today which I promptly brought home to raise. I want to do everything in my power to successfully raise this one, precious egg and knowing about that this is a problem in the west will allow me to try to prevent it. No need to respond. I just wanted to let you know that your comment was helpful and to thank you for it.
I'm loving your videos. Question. I use potted plants and netted, very large netted Butterfly enclosures. Thinking on OE, how might I clean an infected, plant and enclosure as opposed to leaves. I get the egg disinfecting as I use critter containers, but what about the plants that they will be transferred to when they are larger. Any advice ? Graham Foster. Oceanside Southern California
To give you my honest advice, I wouldn't transfer them to those plants, but rather, keep them in containers and bring the sterilized leaves to them. I'm not sure if that's the advice you were hoping for, but if the plants are exposed to nature, the caterpillars are as well, and are at risk to OE, as you've pointed out, but also tachinid flies, and other predators. As for trying to sterilize a plant as a whole, you'd have to use chemicals on it, and thoroughly rinse it, but that can be such a large undertaking, I know I myself wouldn't feel confident that I had rinsed it enough.
If your netting protects them from tachinid flies and the like, though, wouldn't it prevent Monarchs from getting to the leaves as well, and thus, prevent OE from being deposited by a carrying Monarch?
Hi Mr Lund, so this is the Cycle. I have or had numerous plants I got from a specific Butterfly Milkweed Nursery here in California. They were left out and eggs were deposited on them. I then collected the eggs as soon as they were laid and used Critter Keepers to raise them using leaves from the same plants they were laid on. Then when the Cats are maybe 2nd or 3rd Instar I transfer them onto one of the potted plants and put it in my Net environment until they complete the Cycle. So I'm wondering if the egg laying Monarch has OE then my plant that eventually goes into the Net environment may have OE. I'm not sure if that makes sense. I've already set 14 Monarchs free this season and have 8 more Chrysalides ready to eclose in about 10 days. That is the last as my plants are all done and need to regrow. So I'm wishing there was a way to know if my plants are infected from the get go since they are not protected at the Butterfly farm nursery where I'm buying them. Also, supposing all my adult Monarchs are healthy, am I helping in any way with the migration being that I'm so close to the California migration destination ?
MrLundScience hope you hot my follow up question. I Wish I could show you some photos. This is my first time involved. Being that I am in Southern California I'm not sure if there is a break in the season. If the egg laying Monarch is infected I'm done from the get go because I'm recycling my plants. All my eggs hatch but I've had a few like 5 Catapillars that have died from what sounds or looks like it could be OE. If I was to get rid of all these plants and try to start again there is no way of knowing when a female Monarch lays eggs on one of my plants, if she has just infected the while plant.. I have 12 potted plants that I'm recycling for leaves for eggs in critter containers and to keep in my Net environment. I am not wanting to send out infected Monarchs. Being that I'm so close to where the Monarch's congregate on the coast of California near Mexico, what part am I playing if any to the Migration and over all Healthy population of these beautiful creatures.
I think I understand it better now.
I haven't done this before, but one option you could do is take some clear film tape, lightly apply it to leaves (just enough to catch things on it, but not enough to stick to the leaf) and then place that on a note card and view it through the microscope just as I do in my video on how to test for OE parasites. If you spot check multiple places on your home plants and turn up nothing, it doesn't guarantee that there's zero OE, but of course, the more you come back with negative results, the more confident you may start to feel.
Something that may reassure you is that if a caterpillar has OE, it's inside, and the caterpillar isn't going to transmit it to new plants it is placed upon, per se. It's the adults who have the spores on the external parts of their body and deposit new spores on leaves.
If it is indeed a strong concern, though, your best bet is to not place the caterpillars on the plants, but rather, keep them in containers and bring the leaves to them, having bleach treated the leaves. That's the best advice I can give.
Either way, though, you're having success, and that's awesome! Bravo!
As for the migratory cycle, it's likely that no, your Monarchs aren't part of the Mexico migrating population. *Even still*, you are definitely *helping*, as there is NO population in North America that *isn't* suffering! Due to OE, NPV, and other killers, Monarch populations are reported to be quite down. I just have numbers on the Mexican migratory population because they all roost in the same locale in Mexico, giving us a convenient way to estimate their population size.
Please see the other comment I just made on your other comment, which answers some of your questions. Let me ask this, though: Have you watched the video on how to bleach treat the eggs and leaves? If you do that, and then keep the caterpillars out of nature from there on, until it is an adult and is released, you should have great success with not having OE harm your Monarchs. There's little to no way for OE spores to get into your system if you do it that way, but again, this would involve always taking the leaves to the caterpillar, and keeping it in a controlled environment, rather than returning the caterpillar to outdoor plants.
No matter the locale or which population you are helping, thank you for being involved! ALL North American Monarch populations need help!
I write to you with a heavy heart.
Of the eight cats (7 found as late instars, and 1 newly emerged from the egg) we've worked so hard to raise, only one has eclosed and lived. Six died either as cats (NPV), or eclosed and immediately fell, too weak to hang on to the empty chrysalis long enough pump their wings (OE). Yesterday, we came home after being away all day and found one that seemed to have successfully eclosed and pumped her wings! We tried to release her to our bee balm and butterfly weed garden, but she kept fluttering down to the ground. She held onto Hubby's hand, and his shirt, but didn't seem to want to be on a flower. It was a bit breezy, so we thought maybe she just needs a bit more time in a protected area before being released. We put her in a brand new critter cage with a variety of yarrow, bee balm, and butterfly weed, and cut pieces of mandarin orange. Hubby said he noticed immediately, but I didn't until later in the evening. She has slight folds on the bottom of each upper wing, and I suppose this is why she doesn't fly strongly. We're supposed to get storms again today. QUESTIONS: Should we release her tomorrow morning and hope for the best? Or should we assume she has a milder case of OE and freeze her?
The small cat got to a late 2nd instar, and suddenly died for unknown reasons, but we're thinking the leaf we cleaned with a weak bleach solution wasn't sufficiently rinsed and any lingering bleach must have killed it.
We DO have five more eggs that hatched just a few days ago! We are terrified that they are also infected with either OE or NPV, but we'll put them in separate critter cages (which will be thoroughly disintected before placement) and hope for the best.
See the photo on top right in the link above. You can see clearly the bottom tips of each of the top wings is folded over. Because they're almost identical folds on each side, do you think she might be able to fly? What would you do?
Greetings Jeri,
I apologize for not being able to reply to you sooner. I can sympathize with the weight of your heart. I really hope this doesn't discourage you. You are awesome for being this dedicated, both you and Hubby. It's so tough when you put so much into something, along with gallons of hope, and it turns out this way.
If they made it to chrysalis, my vote is usually for OE rather than NPV. I'll be honest...I haven't looked into NPV as thoroughly as I'd like to, as there aren't as many quality sources that are just right at hand with a quick Google search. I also think it's partially because NPV doesn't seem that prevalent here in Michigan. Still, it's something I need to educate myself more on. But, from what I do know, NPV usually will take them out as cats, whereas OE, if it kills them, it's usually in the chrysalis stage, as that's when the spores start to really multiply.
I think that from the others falling victim to what sounds like OE, the other one that eclosed was likely just the least infected. You asked what I would do, and the answer is, I'd test it for OE using the tape/microscope method. That being said, if that testing is not readily available to you, I would assess that
1) it's likely it has OE,
2) if released and it has OE, it has the potential to spread OE and cause harm, and
3) it does not look like it'll fly anytime soon.
The Monarchs, when they come out, their bodies are "as is". The wings will not heal. If it can't fly today, it won't tomorrow either. I would think freezing would be the best option, unfortunately, followed by burning the body if that's an easy (and safe) option. I know, not many people are having cozy fires in their homes in July, but it is a way to ensure the parasite doesn't spread.
Truly, though, I want to commend you on all of this. People involved with raising Monarchs are already quite committed, but I hope they realize, it's people such as yourself who take this on, and *have to deal with these hardships*, yet keep going...that's a level of commitment to be admired. I appreciate you very much, and I hope others here do too.
We're about to bleach all the critter cages that tragically housed our diseased cats, so we can put our four brand new 5th instar cats in their own new digs. To make 5% bleach solution... We're going to soak them in a 5 gallon bucket, with 3 gallons of water and 19 ounces (a little more than 2 cups) of ordinary bleach from the grocery store. I think the math is correct, but it seems like an awful lot of bleach! Please let me know if this is correct.
That would give you 403 ounces total, 19 ounces of which are bleach, and thus, a 4.71% solution. This would work. The target is usually around 5%.
A quick way to do the math is to take the total volume of solution you wish to make (put it in small units, like ounces) and divide that volume by 20. Whatever the answer is you get, that's how many units of bleach you want, and then add water until it gets to your desired volume. That guarantees a 5% solution if both liquids are water based (which bleach is).
In other news, Jeri, I shot the video that helps show how to bleach the eggs (found 18 today, so I was *finally* able to make this video). I'm hoping it's out by Tuesday... We'll see. The editing program likes to play tug-o-war sometimes.
BTW, these 5th instar cats were ones that hatched from black-tipped eggs!
Hey, I'm based in Florida, if it is really 80-90% what do I do? Out of about 100 chrysalides, I've had about 10 fail to emerge or only partially emerge, likely due to OE. Statistically, it looks like I'd have to euthanize all of my butterflies, so next question becomes, why bother trying to help? Do Floridians just sit this out?
I agree, it's tougher in Florida, no doubt. But hey, you Floridians are tougher in general, right? I love your state so much. It's SO AWESOME in Florida! The reptiles ALONE make your state a place I thoroughly love visiting every time I've been down there. You are home to my favorite snake, the Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake (though I'd keep my distance if I ever saw one, of course), not to mention alligators, crocodiles, and just a wide assortment of lizards, turtles, etc. Your state rocks!
Okay, on to the actual question...
Obviously with OE at such a high rate in Florida, many Monarchs in the wild will have OE. There's no avoiding that in the wild. Some have misinterpreted the discussion of OE to think that there's some goal of eradicating it, but that is most definitely not the goal. It's part of nature. It'd be a foolish quest from the get-go. And it's just not at all the goal. What we wouldn't want to do, though, is artificially cause more OE than is already out there, by doing a raising process. So, what's one to do?
I have videos on how to bleach treat both eggs and leaves.
Bleach treating eggs: ua-cam.com/video/oZYzzcGiZRA/v-deo.html
Bleach treating leaves: ua-cam.com/video/2FE9646Z9xs/v-deo.html
What one could do in Florida is make sure to bleach treat eggs that they take in, and the bleach treat any leaves that come into their process. This will create, in theory, an OE free system. Monarchs can then be raised OE free, and released to nature OE free. Granted, it's quite probable that in mating with Monarchs in Florida, they will themselves be infested with spores. Still, it has increased the numbers of Monarchs in Florida somewhat, and has not artificially increased the OE that's out there. But, if one raises Monarchs in Florida without bleach treating, it can lead to 100% of Monarchs being raised with OE, and thus upon release, has artificially bumped up the prevalence of OE in that area. So, it is a bit of extra work, but it is still an option so that one need not "sit this one out".
Now, what if you are bleach treating, and you test for OE, and you still find one infested with OE spores? At that point, it's not my place to answer the question for the individual, but for them to come to their own decision. I just ask that it's an informed decision, and that's why I made the video on the choice to euthanize. It's a controversial subject in this specific hobbyist community, and since even experts have varying opinions on the details, in no way would I say that I'm someone qualified enough to weigh in on it. I think it's better that individuals hear what the experts are saying, and decide what opinion they wish to follow. But again, maintaining sanitary conditions is the best way to make it a non-issue and not put yourself in the position of having to decide.
Here's the video on whether or not to euthanize: ua-cam.com/video/5WEewtof3w8/v-deo.html
I hope this helps!
@@MrLundScience Wow...greatly appreciate the long form response. Very cool. You'd get a kick out of my yard. We get snakes, lizards, geckos, gators, and just about every native Florida butterfly in the garden, but I only keep Monarchs and Queens. Even found a great leopard moth caterpillar and gave him a temporary home until he grows up,
Anyway, I may try switching to bleaching them, but I'm trying to make a sustainable cycle of Milkweed, so if I'm always cutting and bleaching, I'm afraid I won't be able to keep up with the food demand.
I get a lot of joy out of raising them, so I intend to find a way to do it responsibly and in a sustainable fashion.
Thank you for making these videos, at least I'm armed with the understanding of why I lose some of my chrysalides and know how to potentially save them.
If people are taking the time to watch the videos and also take the time to leave comments that contain questions, I feel I owe them the respect of putting thought into the answer. That, and I'm a fast typist. However, in the height of the season, it can take me a few days to sometimes get through them all! And each year, the number of comments waiting are larger and larger. I hope I can keep it up.
Your back yard DOES sound awesome. Not sure if you've check out any of my "Herp Quest" videos, but I'm trying to get a video for just about any reptile or amphibian native to Michigan. Just a personal fun goal. If you enjoy those guys too, you might enjoy those.
Since I've been bleaching, OE has pretty much been a non-issue. It wasn't a large one to begin with, and I still test those that emerge as adults, but I am very glad to know about it now.
Good luck!
Hello, Can you tell me if I need to disinfect my milkweed plants? If I go to all the trouble to bleach the eggs and feed them clean milkweed they may land on my plants when they return to lay eggs that may have the OE.
Greetings Deb!
To properly answer your question, I need to find out what you mean by disinfecting your "plants". Do you mean, disinfecting the plant while it is all together, still in the ground? If so, I definitely don't recommend that. It will get chemicals into your yard (or wherever the plant is) and that's not usually a good thing. If you mean disinfecting the leaves that have been removed from a plant and are being used to feed, yes, I'd recommend doing so if you're willing to put in that time and effort.
Here is a video I made on bleach treating eggs to kill OE that may be on the egg itself: ua-cam.com/video/oZYzzcGiZRA/v-deo.html
And here's a video I made on bleach treating the food leaves that you offer to your caterpillars: ua-cam.com/video/2FE9646Z9xs/v-deo.html
I hope those can help, and I hope I answered the question you asked.
I have a large monarch farm in a converted bird cage on my screened patio in SW Florida. I have tiny black flies, 1/8th inch or less, that are causing distress I believe, on my J -hangers and other cats. They also attach/land on the chrysalis. Could they be biting, causing the cats to twitch? I've cleaned all three levels thoroughly. But the flies returned. Any ideas how to get rid of them??
Greetings Doree. It's tough to give sound advice without seeing all the details in a personal way, but based upon what you are saying, I don't know that you could get rid of the flies without great effort, and even then, they could still persist. If you've already gone lengths to try and prevent them from entering the area the J-hangers and chrysalides are, then I'd say, relocate the chrysalides and J-hangers. Not everyone has a screened in porch as I do to hang chrysalides in, but if I didn't have such a porch, I'd be using an aquarium. Finding a large used one is usually easy enough to do, but of course, depends upon your area where you live. But with a large aquarium, a string of yarn could be hung across it, and then chrysalides, once formed, could be relocated to that area, and it could be kept indoors. Is that an option for you?
@@MrLundScience Thanks for the reply. I've deduced that the flies are fruit flies, prevalent in my husband's compost pile when watermelon and canteloupe are in season! I've covered the compost and think I've gotten rid of the flies. I've seen many chrysalides that have tiny burrowed holes where the flies have actually sucked out the innards. Devastating!
I've had a hard time relocating chrysalides, sure it takes a lot of practice, but it's heartbreaking when I lose one or more. I've been using my hot glue gun to connect the tip of the chrysalis to a cake rack I've connected to the cage. I learned about the glue gun idea from The Butterfly Palace in Branson MO. They import thousands of fresh chrysalides of all species of butterflies from Costa Rica for their huge display, using hot glue to attach to individual plastic cup lids. Very interesting.
Have you had any experience or heard of the toxicity of the milkweed plant to humans? I know that animals have died consuming the plant. Last year I had at least 4 incidents of eye maladies after working with the milkweed plants and touching my face or rubbing my eyes before washing my hands. My opthalmologist was buffled for months of my blindness/fuzzy sight episodes. He would treat my eyes with shots and drops till my sight returned, only to see me a month later with the same ailment. I finally realized that it happened after I clipped my milkweed to feed my caterpillars. I've researched, but found no other incidences. Now I am diligent in washing my hands and tools each time I touch my milkweed.
Love your series!
If fruit flies are attacking your chrysalides, I must admit, that's the first time I've heard of such a thing happening. I don't know that fruit flies have the mouth parts to do such a thing, which you have described as burrowing. Are you certain that it is fruit flies that have done this? I'm also not aware of anything that burrows into the chrysalis, but I admit, that doesn't mean there isn't something that does. I do know that tachinid flies inject eggs into caterpillars, and their larvae develop in the caterpillars and chrysalides, coming out of the chrysalides eventually. When this happens, usually a white stringy thing hang from where the larva emerged.
As for milkweed and humans, as it is poisonous to some degree, it would make sense that it's possible to get those chemicals into sensitive areas such as eyes and have an effect. I haven't heard of this happening either, but I don't have high doubts about it either. Definitely a good practice to wash hands after coming into contact with sap from the plant. Good luck in your efforts!
@@MrLundScience Hi. Am I certain it's fruit flies? I'm not certain of anything, but the flies finally disappeared after I stirred the compost up. Haven't seen any damaged chrysalis this week, and put out 12 butterflies so far. I've researched tachinid flies and don't think that's what I have. I'll keep working on it. Thanks for taking the time to answer.
Finally found the culprit: parasitoid wasps!! Now to avoid another invasion!
I heard the best way to euthanize is to put them in the freezer, is this what you do or do you have a different method?
I knew this would be asked eventually...
Yes, the freezer is considered the most humane way, and thus, that's what I did. If placed in an envelope, the butterfly won't be increasing its stress by fluttering around. After that, the envelope can be placed in the freezer. Afterwards, there are two options I see as recommended as far as what to do with the body. The BEST option, is that the body should be burned in order to fully destroy the spores. The envelope can just be placed in the fireplace while the log is going. The other option, and this would be only if someone has a real educational purpose for it, would be to thaw the Monarch, and then properly spread and mount the specimen. This should only be done for educational purposes, and could be donated to a classroom. However, I must fully urge, Monarchs prepared this way must NOT be placed somewhere (ebay or the like) for sale. There needs to NOT be a market for these animals, as it would only encourage more to capture, kill, and try and profit from. (I just needed to say all of that so it's been said. I don't have any reason to think you yourself would want to do that!)
I would seriously love to know if Neem Oil is effective against bacteria as it is against bugs / mamals
Do you have a Facebook or social media page? I would like to send you information to send you info regarding a citizen science monitoring page with resource tools for the monarch caterpillar.
I am not part of the Facebook revolution and do not currently use it. I'm not sure that after recent events I'll ever start. However, I am available on Twitter. My strictly science account on there is @MrLundScience and I have a second account that is science, music, politics, or just about anything, which is @TungstenClan.
I'm expecting ''some'' dislikes literally has 2 dislikes
Do I understand correctly? That the only thing I can do if I find OE is to euthanize that butterfly? Do I need to clean plants, somehow?
There are no dislikes so.....yay! (At least today there isn't)
Bacteria = cells with no nucleus, protozoans are single cells with a nucleus each.
So it can't be a bacteria and protozoa in the same time.
Sorry if one feels it pedantic. But it's an important distinction...
What type microscope can I get to be able to see the eggs better.. I have a lens on my phone that enables me to see them but it’s shaky with me holding it
i have realeased 250 monarchs. should i OE test now? am I ready?
Well, first, do you have a microscope? That's the essential tool for OE testing. I've tried using common store bought magnifiers, and even combined them, and still have not been able to see the spores without a microscope.
With that being said, it is 100% up to the individual whether or not they choose to OE test. I certainly think it's important, but you need to make sure you have a plan if the test results show a positive result for OE, meaning, yes, OE spores are present. If a Monarch has OE spores on them, releasing them to the wild can do more harm than good to the species as a whole. The most humane way to keep them out of the population is to euthanize them by placing them in an envelope, and then the envelope in the freezer. It can be tempting to want to house them and care for them as if they were pets, but in doing this, you ensure that OE spores will be everywhere in whatever you house them in, and thus, you risk contamination of your other Monarch environments. So, I don't think I can answer this question for you, but it's something you'll have to ask yourself and decide for yourself.
MrLundScience I do have a microscope.
What type of microscope do you have there in the background
Thanks, Rich! Can you recommend an affordable microscope?
I can, and I can't...
First, have you seen this follow up video I did that shows how a handheld microscope (much more affordable) can be used to be effective in testing? ua-cam.com/video/32IqyxjOUfM/v-deo.html
Second, UA-cam is a bit funny about "endorsements". There's a very fine, not so well defined line, and thus, I stay far away from it. So, I can't recommend one, but I can say that if you type "hand held microscope" into a preferred online shopping website, some very affordable, effective options come up! Good luck!
@@MrLundScience Delicately done! Thank you!
HI, Id like to send a photo of a chrysalis to you hear your opinion or to enlighten butterfly lovers
An easy way to do that would be to upload your image somewhere and then provide the link here in the comments. That would allow anyone reading the comments to see it.
Another option would be to tweet it to me if you have a Twitter account. My handle on Twitter is @MrLundScience.
Does this effect the caterpillars behavior?
So this can't happen to a painted lady ?
I just had to euthanize my first ever monarch. I'm just learning about OE. I'll have to look at the other chrysalises and test the other monarchs. :-(
You help other species of butterflys or moths?
sorry, i'm still confused.
Why is the oe parasites so bad?
If a Monarch is heavily infected, it does not make it to adulthood. In other words, it is often fatal to the Monarch.
You are great thank-you for caring about these beautiful graceful fragile creatures. 😀😀😀💖💖
Happy to do so. It's tough talking about these downsides, but, we have to know what we're getting into, I think. The devil you know is better than the devil you don't.
I began with Monarchs by accident. I brought home a flowering plant that I found out was milkweed. Eggs were on it. Catapillars emerged and we got a few monarch butterflies. So I began getting more milkweed and the process began. 6 months ago I noticed some Chrysalis turning black. Some produced butterflies, others died.
The Monarchs that lived came back to lay eggs. I'd see newborn cats for a few days but then they disappeared. I just had 14 new cats. It went down yo 12, then 9 and I ended up with 4. 3 went off to Chrysalis
Just quick comment that it’s not a bacteria. It’s a protozoan 😕
Zero dislikes. ☺️
What do you think is the best way to euthanize a monarch?
Thank you very much for your videos
Awesome
While none of us are really fans of OE, you gotta admit, it's a very interesting, innovative life cycle. Learning about parasites is always so interesting, I think.
OE in 77059, March 2020
Your video interests me, but that beginning with a bunch of chrysalides apparently hanging outdoors, vulnerable to predators concerns me...can you comment on that please? Even if it was just for a 'cool picture' you are giving the idea to the uninformed that they can do something like that without consequence
I understand your concern. I would point out, though, that these videos aren't necessarily single one-shot videos, but a series of them. I've shown often that this cord that I hang in the summer is in a screened in porch. I've thoroughly covered this in the core of the series, Parts 1 - 5. Wasn't meant to be just a "cool picture". This was a year where I found only 30 Monarchs that summer. This was more to document the height of that year, which wasn't much of a height. I don't operate in a way that attempts to get cool footage at the expense of the Monarchs.
Yes, I understand, but besides many have not watched all of those parts to know that, many are also posting a single link in monarch groups and such...so they may have no idea and find your rope idea cute or useful. And from the little bit you showed in this video, it's not obvious that it's indoors. Just my thoughts as I've become somewhat concerned about folks I see raising monarchs who don't bother to get even a little bit of education on what they are doing... :(
Again, I do hear and understand your concern. However, it would not be reasonable to expect that I will be able to troubleshoot all of the different ways that some might make incorrect assumptions, as there's multiple incorrect assumptions people could make. I think it's reasonable that I should be able to trust that your average person would understand that placing Monarchs, be they in the caterpillar stage or in the chrysalis stage where predators have access to them is a risk. However, at the same time, if someone wishes to hang them in this way in their yard, I wouldn't hold that against them. If they hung 100 chrysalides in their yard this way, statistically in nature, only 10 would have made it from eggs to adults. That they were able to help out these hypothetical 100 make it to the chrysalis is already a large help. Let's take it to the extreme - if 80 of those chrysalides were taken out by predators, and only 20 make it to adulthood, well statistically that's still twice as good as nature would have given them. It's still a help.
There have been multiple people over the years who have taken in eggs, raised them to caterpillars for a while, and then, had to go on a vacation. I've advised that if they need to cease their raising for whatever life may throw at them, be it a vacation or a surgery, or what have you, that placing the caterpillars back in the wild (preferably spread out on enough plants to allow them enough food) that this is completely a viable option. If they helped make sure the eggs hatched and that they made it through some caterpillar stages, they've already increased their chances. If they wish to quit half way and allow nature to take over from there, that's up to them, and respected, as they did still help. And needless to say, when placing those caterpillars back out there in nature, certainly predators can get to them.
If you're concerned about folks attempting to raise Monarchs without bothering to get a proper amount of education to do it, hey, I share that concern. But, if people decide they want to raise eggs to the chrysalis stage, and from there, place them back into nature, that's their choice, and as it has helped the Monarchs make it a good portion of the way, I would respect that choice.
Yes I get you but in nature you don't see dozens of chrysalides on a string out in the open in nature. They are hidden, under non-milkweed plants and outdoor furniture and various places where they are as hidden as they can reasonably figure out. Not out in the open for every predator to find. As for putting caterpillars back in the yard, it's certainly better than abandoning or euthanizing them. But I personally have noticed that caterpillars raised in captivity from a young or egg age end up eating a lot more, presumably because they realize they are 'safe' and just go for it. Ones I have found in large size don't seem to catch up in terms of their feasting...would be better on them, I think, to just stop taking in eggs or cats at some point before the trip. And seriously, I've run across people doing the strangest things like one who had basically a flipping obstacle course for an eclosure cage...heaven forbid one should fall and need to climb back up! I have literally seen people who are 'raising' monarchs ask what they eat, no joke.
I love Butterflies!!
I have 4 crisalides
Very cool. Good luck to them!
Selling them is awful!
How did you come up with 250,000 years, it sounds quite arbitrary. I like your videos and learn alot, but please stick with the science and not random time speculation.
I'm only 6
Only 6? You mean, you're already 6! Time flies when you're having fun, huh?
I’m expecting some dislikes
11k views and 1 dislike
Yeah, I kinda missed the mark on that one!