[Hydraulic Steering] Orbital Valve Rebuild and How it Works
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- Опубліковано 22 лют 2018
- Disassembly, rebuild, and how it works for a hydraulic steering orbital valve common in mud trucks, rock crawlers, etc.
See link for port diagram, hydraulic schematic, and a more in-depth explanation of orbitals/orbitrols/steering control units:
www.bigtractorparts.com/downlo... - Авто та транспорт
If you remove the drive link from the inner rotor (like I do at 6:00) be sure to replace it with the teeth engaged in the same way as it was before! These 12 small teeth are timed to the 6 large outer teeth of the rotor. If it is reassembled one tooth off, they will not be timed correctly and your steering wheel will spin violently and dangerously when the valve becomes pressurized (i.e. when you start the engine of the vehicle.) This WILL break bones if you are not clear of the steering wheel. If you do not need to remove the drive link, I recommend leaving it in place.
If you have removed the drive link and are unsure if you reassembled it correctly, STAY CLEAR OF THE STEERING WHEEL when you start the vehicle. If the steering wheel spins on its own, the drive link is not timed correctly. To fix it, disassemble the valve again and rotate the the drive link one small tooth in either direction. This should solve the problem but always use caution when starting the engine.
Thanks a lot. I broke my head, where did I go wrong.
I saw a guy put one together out of time and he started it up and it spun the steering wheel really fast glad he didn't have his hand in it.
Please would you mind making a video on the timing coz I think this one step that most go wrong.
that did happen but I did like you said and thats fixed
I was looking for a visual on how a Case 580 steering control box works and your video popped up. Your orbital valve looks pretty much like a Case unit (I guess they don't really need to reinvent the wheel, so it shouldn't matter who the manufacturer is).
Very to-the-point and concise. Thank you!!!
Great video, it was difficult to find this info as everything around is saturated with info on automotive hydraulic steering systems. Helped a lot.
Nice video and very good explanation. Thanks!
Thank you for watching!
Very useful video to understand this steering system
Thank you 👍🤝
Glad it helped! Thanks for watching 🍻
thanls a lot big bro i needed this man!!
Excellent video 👍
Наглядно. Отличное видео. Спасибо.
Добро пожаловать! Спасибо за просмотр. Hopefully that translates to "You are welcome! Thank you for watching" haha
Thank you, excellent video
Thanks for watching!
Wow...where did you go to school?? MIT?? Did you work for NASA?? You are great!!
Haha thanks for the good words! Just lots of hours tinkering 👍
awesome.
good job
Great content.
Appreciate it! Thanks for watching
Thank you sir
Thanks for sharing
Thanks for watching!
Thank you for mentioning the violent steering wheel; I was starting to pull my hair out; amazing what one tooth can do
Wish I would have remembered to mention it in the video! Thanks for watching!
ty. that removed some of the 'its fukn magic' of an orbital
Haha no problem! Still a little bit of magic but at least they make more sense now
Like and subscribed!!!
. Very e very e nice
Awesome video! I had no idea on timing that gear, I guess I got lucky when I had mine apart. Question, my Mf285 steers much sharper to the right than left. Takes a football field to turn left but u turns on a dime to the right. Is this an orbital valve issue or steering gear? It’s also leaking fluid out the column. Should the wheel spin indefinitely or stop like a car? Sorry so many questions.. there aren’t many resources out there.
Has it always had unequal steering like that? If your steering uses a single-ended ram (shaft only come in and out on one side,) that's pretty normal because turning the way that retracts the steering ram, you have to fill the volume of the ram minus the volume of the shaft because the shaft is inside that cavity and takes up the space the orbital would need to fill. Turning the way that extends the ram, however, you have to fill the cavity on the other side of the piston which does not have the shaft running through it and is therefore a larger volume to fill. Orbitals have a specific volume output per revolution so on single ended rams it'll require more turns of the wheel to extend the ram than it will to retract it.
If the ram is double ended (shaft on both sides,) that's not normal so it's likely a leak somewhere. If you're not seeing much fluid leaking (actively dripping, etc.) then it's probably not the orbital or hoses. My guess at that point would be a leak at the steering ram piston inside the ram. A seal could be failing where it will hold pressure on one side (the side that turns quickly) but leaks fluid in to the other side of the piston when turning the other way (which would cause the steering to take extra turns.)
The steering may or may not have a hard stop like a car but you should definitely feel a stop in the wheel of some kind when the ram is at the end of travel or when it hits a physical stop at the steering knuckles. If the wheel turns easily even after hitting the end of travel of the ram, that also indicates that the ram might have an internal leak that lets fluid bypass the seals and keep feeding fluid in to the other side of the piston is the ram. Hope all that makes sense! Good luck!
@@WebWheeler I think I figured it out this morning. The hydraulic steering ram is situated towards the right ride of the tractor and has limited room to move with so much more room moving to the other side. It engineered this way 🤷🏻♂️. Do you have to disassemble the orbital valve to install a shaft seal? I have fluid coming out of the column. Thanks again man!
Great video. I have a question on my unit there is a ball bearing and a wristpin in one of the holes and they fell out of the manifold. I'm not sure if the ball bearing goes above or below the wristpin. Any insite on this ?
Any idea what hole they fell out of? If I had to guess it might be some sort of check valve. Is your orbital an open center valve? Closed center valves could have something like that but my experience with those is pretty much 0 haha
I'm tinkering with a John Deere 1 series that uses a single 6 gpm pump that goes into a flow divider that splits the flow to about 3 gpm to implements and 3 to the steering and oil cooler. I'm wondering if I remove the divider and make it a single circuit whether there will be any issues with pressure. Is there typically a pressure relief valve in a steering circuit? How does the low pressure outlet stay low pressure? If you were sending 3000 psi to the high pressure side, I don't understand how it comes out the low pressure at 400 psi or less. Thanks for the video!
I imagine you'd get a pressure drop when trying to use implements and steering at the same time, but I can't be sure. The orbital tends to work as it's own pressure regulator, bleeding the excess flow back to the reservoir so no relief is necessary from any I've seen. Basically the pump is really only putting out flow, the pressure comes when there is resistance to flow. Because the outlets back to the reservoir don't have any resistance to flow, the pressure doesn't build. Seems weird I know haha. Thanks for watching!
thanks awesome
Thanks for watching!
Hello! I have one of this orbitral danfoss on my tractor and suddenly, it won't steer. In the morning when the oil is cold, it steer well, but when the oil warm up, it wont steer. Cand you tell me what's wrong with it? Thanks a lot! Sorry for my bad english
Hello: I have a 1996 Pasquali Italian articulating vineyard tractor. The steering valve is leaking up through the steering column. I followed a mechanics advice when trying to remove a seized steering wheel from the splined shaft by slamming the top of the shaft using a ball peen hammer and rapping it hard downward. Wheel released, but now damage from that allows the leak. New valve from Spain/Italy is 400 US delivered. Any thoughts on the issue only being the seals? Or am I potentially into broken cast parts? Suggestions before I dig in...as I have never done this before? Thanks
First piece of advice is find a new mechanic! That was horrible advice you were given. Either way, try turning the valve by hand with all the hoses disconnected. If it turns smoothly, you are most likely ok and it's just the seal. If it feels like it's grinding or sticking, there is internal damage. Good luck!
My David Brown 885 is leaking out of the top of the steering column. Otherwise the steering valve is working ok. Do you think O-ring replacement on the valve will stop oil from coming out of the top of steering column?
Yeah chances are it's an o-ring that has gone bad. Mine leaked at the column before rebuilding it too. Nice thing about these valves is there's not much else that could cause leaks. Good luck!
I have a question, we have one for trucklift with 5 hole instead of four. and apparently it needs timing for re-assembly. any idea what we can do concerning we didnt know this point and now all of the sudden we realize it ...
There probably is a way to tell if it's time incorrectly but im not aware of it. I would put it together and be clear of the steering wheel when you apply pressure. If the wheel spins on it's own, shut it off, disassemble and rotate the drive link one tooth then it should be good. Good luck!
min seems to have work most of the time but occaisionly will just spin like an air bubble or such this is on a full hydro industrial machine so i doubt its a supply pressure issue , i am about to do a full filter change and fluid flush
Yeah that sounds like a fluid level issue - pressure is probably fine but it sounds like the valve might be getting starved for fluid. Just a guess- good luck man!
WebWheeler: Appreciate the teardown video. I have a orbital valve on a Massey Ferguson GC2400 subcompact tractor in which the threads for the pressure port were crossed when I tried to replace with a non-manufacturer hose. When I received the proper hose, to make sure the threads were cleaned/mating properly, I removed the port from below the dash, and a y-shaped, stamped piece fell out. I'm not sure which way it goes in (one way fits easily but the steering is not fully powered) and the other way doesn't fit when trying to install in place (I haven't been able to remove the steering wheel so as to get the part onto a shop bench.)
If I send a pic of the part, do you think you would be able to suss the configuration inside the valve? I HAVE NOT taken the valve itself apart.
Thanks...
I will give it a shot! Send the pic to webwheeleroffroad at gmail.com and I'll take a look 👍
@@WebWheeler Thanks a million for considering looking at it. Sent a png from bscavone at gmail.
Plz send me a video for hm 2021wheel loder orbital valve repairing
Im working on a steering unit from a late 70's massey tractor and it looks almost identical to what you are showing. Its a charlynn 211-1060-001. Parts book shows a spring at the bottom of the steering shaft where they join together. Have you ever seen this? It would be between the two pieces you join @ 7:05. Thanks!
Interesting... What kind of spring does it show? Just a normal compression spring? Or could it be some sort of retaining ring?
Good video for sure. But without knowing how to time it doesn't do me to much good.
how would you bleed this system after rebuilding? on a forklift i would just loosen one of the hoses and turn it a few times until fluid leaks out then tighten. my grandfather has a Terramite T5C backhoe that he has just rebuilt a unit like this and i'm trying to figure out the easiest way to tell him over the phone how to bleed it since it's still not working after he rebuilt it and he didn't know it needed to be bled. Or does it? thanks in advance!
They tend to self-bleed as long the ports/hoses are pointed upwards when mounted. Just fill the oil reservoir, crank the steering wheel from lock to lock (keep an eye on the fluid level as it will drop quick.) Keep adding fluid and turning the wheel back and forth until the fluid stops bubbling and the turning gets responsive. You'll be able to feel when there's no air getting compressed and it's bled. Good luck!
What is the seal kit number or model number of your unit? My steering valve model number is no longer legible. Identacle to your valve.
Good Vid, Mine Has air in it from undoing lines when I split the tractor. The steering wheel will now turn infinitely in both directions without moving the wheels. I have cracked all the lines to bleed them and there is pressure at both ram lines. Seems to be stuck in the neutral/open position. Any ideas how to get the air out?
They are usually pretty good at bleeding themselves of air but if it's possible you might try dismounting the valve (keeping the lines hooked up) and holding it with the lines pointing up so the air rises out. Some are mounted where the lines come in to it from the underside and that can trap air. They are usually pretty good away bleeding out the air either way though so you might want to double check the hose routing just to be sure something isn't crossed up there. Good luck and thanks for watching!
Just an update. Turns out it was not air. I had it plumbed wrong, my bad.
Glad you got it figured out!
What provides the resistance on the sleeve to prevent it from rotating with the inner spool and just staying in the neutral position? Is it just friction and the sleeve slowly returns to neutral under spring force?
The inner spool is connected to the steering wheel, and the outer sleeve is connected to the gerotor through the cross pin and drive link that I point out. Note that the cross pin hole for the inner spool is slotted, while the hole in the outer sleeve is tight to the pin diameter, allowing the inner spool to rotate slightly either way without rotating the outer sleeve. Basically, the gerotor provides the initial resistance because when the steering wheel starts turning, it slightly rotates the inner spool, while the outer sleeve needs to displace the fluid in the gerotor in order to turn. The resistance from the fluid in the gerotor is greater the the strength of the leaf springs so they give, making the inner spool rotate while the outer sleeve stays still, opening the ports to either the left or right hose. Hope that makes sense and answers your question!
we have a Allis Chalmers 170 ,steering wheel turns and turns then will catch either direction, changed orbital valve for another used one and does same thing ,any thoughts?
Sounds to me like some of the lines mixed up? I would double check the line plumbing if you haven't already. If they're good, your hydraulic cylinder might have an internal leak at the piston allowing fluid to pass between chambers. Good luck!
I have a danfoss unit and I'm wondering if the check ball goes in the pump hole or the tank hole?
I can't be positive since I don't have experience with the danfoss valves specifically but in my experience the check valve/ball is always on the pump side so that if the pressure spikes (like from the steering components getting push by outside forces,) that extra pressure is not transmitted back to the pump or the other steering line (which could cause line failure or steering wheel kickback). Hope that helps. Good luck!
Do you have an o-ring or rebuild parts list/kit for this? Can you tell me where to find one? Thanks
I ended up finding one on eBay- just search for whatever your model number is and there is most likely one on there 👍
Is power steering fluid supposed to be in the steering colum tube on a 575 di mahindra ,some say yes some say no ,mine is leaking from under the steering wheel ,thank you so much
I don't know if any that are supposed to have fluid in the column- usually the valve is sealed so that the column is dry. Best way to tell is to pull the column off and check where the seals are. All that I've seen are sealed between the valve and column. Good luck!
forgot to mention the timing aspect to it cause if you have it out one tooth that steering wheel is going to go for one hell of a ride at around 2000 psi.
Thanks a lot for bringing that to my attention! I meant to add it as a note since I didn't talk about it while filming but I completely forgot to until seeing your comment. Best I can do now (since UA-cam deleted the annotations feature) is add a note in the corner and direct people to the comments. Hopefully people will see that. Thanks again for the comment- I appreciate it!
@@WebWheeler haha I mean they have a 50/50 chance of getting it right
fergatron lol true but if it was me I doubt I would get lucky like that haha. Thanks again man
I added a transmission plate and bar cooler to my low pressure line. It refuses to bleed itself out, there’s a drastic fluid drop, then an overflowing foaming mess after the engine is shut off. I removed the top line of my added cooler and there was no fluid.
When does an orbital valve circulate fluid out of the low pressure port? Constantly or only when under left and right direction?
The fluid should always circulate through the low pressure port but won't necessarily flow when there's too much fluid in the system. The foaming is from cavitation of the fluid and is pretty common when first running the system while bleeding the air out. Fluid level drop can be from the fluid compressing an air bubble if air is trapped somewhere. Not sure how much fluid you lost when installing the cooler but the first step is to lift the steering tires off the ground and turn the wheel lock to lock repeatedly while keeping the fluid level high. This should pull fluid in to both sides of the steering cylinder. Once you don't feel any slop/squish in the wheel when turning, the cylinder should be bled. Once that's done, turn the motor on to activate the pump and continue turning the wheel back and forth lock to lock. That should push out any remaining air bubbles and fill the return hose and your cooler. Good luck!
Looking at a 1960 international 3000…2504 the seller said the steering wheel is tough to turn but the tractor does turn and believes something is wrong with the orbital valve. Any tips on what might cause that issue?
If it's the valve, it's possible debris clogging up the internal ports or it's worn to the point that it's leaking internally and bleeding flow back to the reservoir/pump instead of building pressure to push the cylinder. Not all that likely though- I'd suspect the hydraulic pump is the more likely issue or just that it's low on fluid haha. Cylinder could possibly have a bad internal seal too but like I said, worn out pump or low fluid are the most likely. The valve is pretty bulletproof as long as it has clean fluid running through it. Good luck and hope that helps!
So what fails on these to cause sloppy or unresponsive steering?
Seals are pretty much the only parts to fail normally. There is a chance the leaf spring that goes between the inner and outer cylinder could break which would cause that kind of issue. Never heard of that actually happening- just a thought if what could cause it. Good luck!
what did you torque the bolts for the nose cone to?
I believe it was 20 ft-lbs. If no manual/torque sheet is available, I just consult a generic torque chart based on the bolt size and grade
Hello sir. Thanks for the video! Our lift has one of these with the same 4 port configuration. It turns fine to the left, but it barely turns past center when you turn right. It's like the turning cylinder runs out of stroke. To rule the cylinder out, I swapped the left and right hoses on the orbital and it reversed the problem. I could now turn right, but not left.
Does that sound like an issue that rebuilding the orbital would solve?
Thank you again!
Assuming there is not a blockage or problem with the hose that goes to the bad side, I would imagine it has to be the orbital. As long as there is no other components between the orbital and cylinder?
@@WebWheeler Thank you sir! That's what I was thinking. I'll see if I can source the orings and/or seals to rebuild it. I'll let you know! Liked and subbed!
Thank you! It could also be something internal to the orbital- when you pull it apart make sure to clean it out extremely well and check the leaf spring that attaches the inner and outer valve bodies- if that spring is damaged it may only allow fluid out of one side. Good luck!
Where is the unit located,and is it like a powersteering pump.
It's the equivalent of the steering box. In full hydraulic steering this unit takes the input from the steering wheel and directs fluid to the hydraulic ram to push the tires left or right 👍
@@WebWheeler Tanx 👍.
My John deere 2251 is hard to steer it needs to two hands what could be the problem @webwheeler ?
You have low pressure for some reason- either fluid is low, the pump is going out, or there is a leak somewhere. A leak is pretty obvious (and dangerous) though if it's a hose or fitting on the pressure side so if you can't see a leak and everything else seems good the leak could be inside the steering cylinder
Would love to know where to get the bearing for the steering shaft?
Depends on your model but if you Google "SFK bearing size chart" they have a great list of their bearings that you can sort by dimensions. Use that to figure out your bearing part number and you should be able to find replacements on eBay, Amazon, or where ever. Good luck!
I ended up finding it "11312 char-lynn" part number. Thank you
I lost steering on my lull. The wheel spins freely. No resistance. There are no leaks or anything from the hydraulic steering unit. All other hydraulic functions work. Do you think there is a mechanical failure somewhere in this thing?
If it's not something stripped out in the steering column, then yeah I would guess the orbital valve is the problem. Another possiblity would be that the internal seal in the cylinder is blown. That would allow fluid to flow from one side of the cylinder to the other without moving anything or building pressure and your wheel would turn without resistance
The control valve from my 2004 Nissan Pulsar seems to be leaking from where the steering shaft goes in. I can't find any replacement seal or O-ring for sale. Do you think that I could potentially find a generic O ring to do the job? Is it just a rubber O ring or is it something more complex?
Yeah a generic o ring will be fine as long as it's the correct size and cross section- some use rectangular or square cord, others use X rings (or Quattro seals.) Most I've seen are standard Buna N rubber but they could be viton or something. Usually black rings are rubber and viton are brown. Once the profile and material are verified you can just get a generic one with the right dimensions or make your own from cord stock you can buy. Might try taking the valve to a hydraulics shop- they can probably figure out exactly what you need. Good luck!
@@WebWheeler great information and suggestions. Thank you very much!
No problem!
So what can fail inside this unit to cause lack of steering in one direction but not the other? I'm unsure if this is the problem but it seems like it would be.
Does the wheel feel the same when turning both ways? Or does one way feel harder/easier and the other normal? Hard to imagine anything that would fail only on one side- my guess would be the cylinder having a bad seal or fluid level not being high enough if it's pushing a single-ended cylinder
@@WebWheeler I'll verify both answers to the those questions when I get home, that way I'm not spot balling. But I wanna say, when driving at any speeds in a straight line and trying to turn , the front wheels will fade back to straight. Like turning a steering wheel indefinitely when moving at higher speeds to keep the front wheels tracking where you want them.
I tore into mine not marking the disks and when I put back together the steering wheel turned on its own so I tore it down again but under the washer there was no timing mark but I did my best to move gear 1 tooth now the steering wheel doesnt turn on its own but it wont turn the wheels only when I lift them off the ground?? is there a fix for that?
What was the problem that made you disassemble it originally? Did it have anything to do with only being able to turn with no load on the steering?
correct and now its leaking under the steering wheel and a repair man told me hydro fl isnt suposta go up the column the column is like 19 in long and bolts onto the valve and I cant get it ofgf? besides the 4 bolts what else is holding it on??@@WebWheeler
If you remove the steering wheel, there's usually a snap ring holding the steering shaft inside the column. It also has a seal there. That could be what's holding it together?
My john deere 2251 Hydro steering unit and the steering filter overheating now what could be the reason and when that happens hydraulic needs high rev to function
Sounds like your pump is going out- if it's not pumping correct it could cause heat buildup and would require excessive RPM to operate
Which pump the one in front of the Engine?
Yeah whichever pump supplies pressure to your steering system
,ser i ask someting why steering so hard to turn lift and right,,, what is the problem
Usually that's is because of low pressure from the pump either from low fluid level or a failing pump. The valve is just directing flow so it's possible that there is debris clogging ports but usually it's a pump problem especially if it's evenly hard to turn in both directions.
,,'what do you men pump ser?,pump of hydraulic or inside of steering pump
@@creedstag7843 The pump that supplies pressure to the steering valve. If that is not supplying enough pressure, the steering will be difficult
But what prevents it from keep filling the cylinder if i stop stearing. If I star stearing presure builds up in one side. Why does it not just keep dping it when im not? (Hard to explain what i mean)
Check out 4:20 of the video. If you are not turning the steering wheel, the leaf spring returns the internal valve bodies to neutral with each other. When the valve bodies are neutral with each other, the fluid from the pump pressurizes both sides equally so the cylinder doesn't move and any excess flow is directed back to the reservoir.
@@WebWheeler aha i se so only when i stear the holes turn so more flow goes to on side. And when i stop turning the holes goes to th neutral position? Gear explaination. Thats how it works on a car with powertearing as well? (With oil and not electric)
That's correct- the harder you steer, the more the ports to one side open and the ports for the other side close. And yes that is basically the same function as hydraulic power steering in cars, just modified to assist the mechanical steering input. Thanks for watching!
Mine is fighting it’s self internal
My tractor wont steer. Please help me
Need more info to have any clue what might be going on...
it still doesn't explain to me how it works.
Your not very smart them
He explained it great
Just saw this comment lol glad to hear it thanks!