I find your reviews and other videos very valuable. I feel God pulling me to Him and learning about The Church, of Orthodox. The Way. The One and only Holy Catholic and Apostolic church. My wife and I grew up knowing nothing about orthodoxy in baptist/evangelical/non denominational churches. Pray for us. We had turned away from Christianity, and my wife is still against it, while my heart is softened. She went through some traumatic experiences in the protestant church and her abusive ex husband who used his views of Christianity and conspiracy theories against her.
Great video! Don't be discouraged, keep up the good work. I always get giddy when I see you uploaded a new video. And glad to see someone else with a handy dandy note book. MAILLLLLLLL
Hello from England. Great to see you back, i've found your reviews very helpful. (Yes, really!) You're right about Ambrosian chant, it's gorgeous. Check out Mozarabic chant, I think you'll love that too.
the filioque 🙄 the chief reason of misguided love in the West leading to Romanticism according to Saint Sophrony. Don't mess with the hypostasis of the Trinity. Love the St. Maximovitch quote, the Ambrosian mentions and all of the rest. Saint Coleman Prayer book and Saint Ambrose prayer book ♥️ Whoot whoot! Glad I finally got to see this.
Excellent video, it is good to remember that the west was Orthodox even after 1054, and that after the Council of Florence and the sack of Constantinople in 1453 did the two churches split indefinitely. Even the Old Roman Rite was based on Byzantine Liturgical practices and chants which are beautiful to listen to by the way. I even suspect that the Sarum Rite was used in the Celtic churches into the Council of Trent. In either case, these Westrrn liturgies are beautiful to listen to and are an important part of Orthodoxy in the West. May Gof bless you momma Cat abs Spooky Cat during this holy season of Lent!!☦️🙏
I can tell you've done your research, but you are sharing some common misinformation. This is my inadequate introduction to figuring out the details. A lot of it comes from people using the word "Gallican" and "Rite" to refer to completely different things. The gist of it is thus, there are 3 western rites. Gallican, Roman, and Ambrosian. With a few of their uses (dialects) they are; -Gallican --Mozarabic (Spain, and this actually divides into two main manuscript traditions) --Extinct forms from France and northern Europe generally -Roman --Curial (Rome itself) --Sarum --Bragan --Dominican --Lyonnais --&c. -Ambrosian --Milanese --A few extinct close relatives The three rites are structurally different from one another enough that you cannot easily take all of the propers of a certain feast from one rite and put them in another. On the other hand, you could use the same troparia, kontakia, for the divine liturgies of Saint James, Basil, Chrysostom. They're compatible with each other. The Ambrosian rite is closer to the Roman than either is to the Gallican (being the only still living descendent, I will now say simply Mozarabic). The Roman and Ambrosian rites have nearly the exact same anaphora. The Mozarabic anaphora, on the other hand, is a completely different text, a large portion of which changes day by day. On the other hand, there were a great number of local Uses of the Roman rite used throughout Europe. These differ quite little from one another, really. They vary mostly in their prayers at the foot of the altar, the preparation of the Eucharistic elements and timing therein, the offertory and the prayers before communion. If you picked up a Sarum manuscript and it had the proper prayers for a particular feast, you could use the same prayers in any other use of the Roman rite. A blind man really wouldn't be able to tell apart different these different uses, unless he was extremely diligent perhaps. But if you wanted to use them for a Mozarabic mass, you would have to compose new materials.
@@Michael_Binkleythe problem with the Stowe manuscript is that it has enough weird stuff in it that we know it's something unfamiliar, but it's contains so little information that we can't really identify it well. Some people theorize it was a unique text written for a particular person or community. I didn't mention it because we don't have nearly enough information to have a good idea of how the rite was or how exactly the manuscript was supposed to be used. For the same reason, I also omitted the ancient rite of North Africa. Divers Other Monks did a good video analyzing the Stowe manuscript ua-cam.com/video/oZZOqr7Mqoc/v-deo.html
Any good videos on this? I have dyslexia so it's alot easier to listen to audio opposed to reading, unfortunately many books are not written with audio content in mind.
Great video! You might be interested in The Anglican Office Book. It supplements the BCP, and includes the U.S.1928 BCP Mattins & Evensong, with useful additions, seasonal variations, antiphons, etc, as well as the "missing Hours". Except Lauds, which is assumed to be included in Mattins. I use the 1662 BCP, but it works in well with that, and most other BCPs I reckon, like the Orthodox one. It draws from the Hours of Sarum and other Western Rite sources. It's excellent! There aren't many reviews of it on YT (just one, as far as I know), but there's a FB group.
@@OrthodoxReview Not quite sure what you mean by which one I would recommend, but will try to answer: As far as I know, there's only one Anglican Office Book... for the moment. There's a 2nd Edition coming out though, that's going to be an Office book / KJV combo. The KJV willl have the Deuterocanon! As for BCPs, I prefer the 1662 (mainly because I'm British), although I have a U.S. 1928, and it's sound. There's an excellent new edition by InterVarsity Press called The 1662 International Edition. It's a beautiful little Prayer Book that only lightly revises the language, and has quite a few extras at the back. It's also reasonably priced. The AOB is a little expensive. As is the Anglican Breviary (which I don't have, but is available online), which is basically an Anglican version of the 1911 Latin Breviary. By the way, I received the Anthologion a couple of day ago. Wow! Impressive! :) I could only afford the bonded leather version, but even that feels great. Once I understand it better, I might try a month or two of the Lesser Hours, which still allows me to use the BCP for Mattins and Evensong. I've noticed the Psalms for the Lesser Hours are different. The ones in the AOB are mainly the Psalms of Ascent. And Compline is very similar to the Benedictine Compline.
Good video! Just a quick correction, the Tridentine Mass is the Mass of St. Gregory, which is the Roman Rite, not the Sarum Use. The Sarum Use was authorized but the only ones that used it were forced by the English monarchy to become Anglican. The Roman Rite was left unchanged in terms of individual prayers. Also, Trent was not the first Ecumenical Council since the schism, there were several. It was just the biggest in terms of scope due to the Protestant rebellion. Latin as a liturgical language was not new, it was mentioned specifically because the Lutherans and Calvinist’s were rejecting it. It also didn’t say vernacular could not be used per se, but that there was no theological problem with Latin. The reason the Church maintained the language despite that was specifically because the heretics of the time were rejecting it, and so it was one of the unifying factors to help in the confusion. The filioque was centuries before Trent, and all western liturgies had been using it for centuries. The Eastern Churches were even allowed not to use it when they briefly came back to communion at Florence and one of the Lateran Councils. You can actually read the documents of Trent. Trent also banned any liturgies that were not older than 200 years (or 300 years?). Also the Gallican Rite was more a collection of rites. A really good book about the Roman Rite mass is “On the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass” by St. Robert Bellarmine. He explains why the use of Sacred Languages is apostolic, why it’s good, how even the Jews used sacred language that was different than the vernacular of the time, etc. Keep in mind, he isn’t saying it has to be in a sacred language, just that it is fitting and is no way contrary to the faith, which is what the Lutherans were saying.
@@philangeli Nicaea also says clerics can’t live with women. So I mean if we are going to go down the “council a says x” we can do this all day. I don’t care if you find it dubious, the fact is the Sarum use was a later liturgy and not the liturgy of St. Gregory. It doesn’t matter where you served or what monastery you lived in. That doesn’t change facts. Also, considering we have historical evidence still about what Trent actually said, and that it contradicts what he said, and that the Roman Rite is the rite of St. Gregory the Great, and not the Sarum Use, I’d like you to provide actual evidence that says the contrary. I’m not sure what you think I was arguing, but pretty much nothing you said seems to be relevant.
I find your reviews and other videos very valuable. I feel God pulling me to Him and learning about The Church, of Orthodox. The Way. The One and only Holy Catholic and Apostolic church. My wife and I grew up knowing nothing about orthodoxy in baptist/evangelical/non denominational churches. Pray for us. We had turned away from Christianity, and my wife is still against it, while my heart is softened. She went through some traumatic experiences in the protestant church and her abusive ex husband who used his views of Christianity and conspiracy theories against her.
You have my prayers, such as they are. God bless and keep you!
Great video! Don't be discouraged, keep up the good work. I always get giddy when I see you uploaded a new video. And glad to see someone else with a handy dandy note book. MAILLLLLLLL
I'm pretty sure that nobody was celebrating any Divine Liturgy in Timbuktu in the 5th Century.
Hello from England. Great to see you back, i've found your reviews very helpful. (Yes, really!)
You're right about Ambrosian chant, it's gorgeous. Check out Mozarabic chant, I think you'll love that too.
Will do, thanks!
the filioque 🙄
the chief reason of misguided love in the West leading to Romanticism according to Saint Sophrony.
Don't mess with the hypostasis of the Trinity.
Love the St. Maximovitch quote, the Ambrosian mentions and all of the rest.
Saint Coleman Prayer book and Saint Ambrose prayer book ♥️ Whoot whoot!
Glad I finally got to see this.
you're always in my prayers and thus, psychometrically in every prayer rope I've been making. 🙏🏻🤗 old man
Hope the pope stops restricting and banning these liturgy’s
Great vid! I was looking forward to it
Excellent video, it is good to remember that the west was Orthodox even after 1054, and that after the Council of Florence and the sack of Constantinople in 1453 did the two churches split indefinitely. Even the Old Roman Rite was based on Byzantine Liturgical practices and chants which are beautiful to listen to by the way. I even suspect that the Sarum Rite was used in the Celtic churches into the Council of Trent. In either case, these Westrrn liturgies are beautiful to listen to and are an important part of Orthodoxy in the West. May Gof bless you momma Cat abs Spooky Cat during this holy season of Lent!!☦️🙏
Oops I meant *God and momma Cat, me bad!!😢
I’m so happy to see a new episode Raphael. I hope you are enjoying My Life In Christ.
So that was you! Thank you so much!
"Buckle up Trad Cats " Love it !
I can tell you've done your research, but you are sharing some common misinformation. This is my inadequate introduction to figuring out the details.
A lot of it comes from people using the word "Gallican" and "Rite" to refer to completely different things.
The gist of it is thus, there are 3 western rites. Gallican, Roman, and Ambrosian. With a few of their uses (dialects) they are;
-Gallican
--Mozarabic (Spain, and this actually divides into two main manuscript traditions)
--Extinct forms from France and northern Europe generally
-Roman
--Curial (Rome itself)
--Sarum
--Bragan
--Dominican
--Lyonnais
--&c.
-Ambrosian
--Milanese
--A few extinct close relatives
The three rites are structurally different from one another enough that you cannot easily take all of the propers of a certain feast from one rite and put them in another. On the other hand, you could use the same troparia, kontakia, for the divine liturgies of Saint James, Basil, Chrysostom. They're compatible with each other.
The Ambrosian rite is closer to the Roman than either is to the Gallican (being the only still living descendent, I will now say simply Mozarabic).
The Roman and Ambrosian rites have nearly the exact same anaphora. The Mozarabic anaphora, on the other hand, is a completely different text, a large portion of which changes day by day.
On the other hand, there were a great number of local Uses of the Roman rite used throughout Europe. These differ quite little from one another, really. They vary mostly in their prayers at the foot of the altar, the preparation of the Eucharistic elements and timing therein, the offertory and the prayers before communion. If you picked up a Sarum manuscript and it had the proper prayers for a particular feast, you could use the same prayers in any other use of the Roman rite. A blind man really wouldn't be able to tell apart different these different uses, unless he was extremely diligent perhaps.
But if you wanted to use them for a Mozarabic mass, you would have to compose new materials.
If you're going to go full nerd you can't forget the Stowe. So much for introductions.
@@Michael_Binkleythe problem with the Stowe manuscript is that it has enough weird stuff in it that we know it's something unfamiliar, but it's contains so little information that we can't really identify it well. Some people theorize it was a unique text written for a particular person or community. I didn't mention it because we don't have nearly enough information to have a good idea of how the rite was or how exactly the manuscript was supposed to be used. For the same reason, I also omitted the ancient rite of North Africa.
Divers Other Monks did a good video analyzing the Stowe manuscript
ua-cam.com/video/oZZOqr7Mqoc/v-deo.html
Any good videos on this? I have dyslexia so it's alot easier to listen to audio opposed to reading, unfortunately many books are not written with audio content in mind.
Awesome, thanks for making this.
And what would you recommend for a ancient eastern prayer book
I did an episode on the book "Prayer Book of the Early Christians", which i think is a great starting point.
ua-cam.com/video/f4ECqh7TEbM/v-deo.html
Great video! You might be interested in The Anglican Office Book. It supplements the BCP, and includes the U.S.1928 BCP Mattins & Evensong, with useful additions, seasonal variations, antiphons, etc, as well as the "missing Hours". Except Lauds, which is assumed to be included in Mattins. I use the 1662 BCP, but it works in well with that, and most other BCPs I reckon, like the Orthodox one. It draws from the Hours of Sarum and other Western Rite sources. It's excellent! There aren't many reviews of it on YT (just one, as far as I know), but there's a FB group.
I'll give it a look, thanks!
Which one do you recommend?
@@OrthodoxReview Not quite sure what you mean by which one I would recommend, but will try to answer: As far as I know, there's only one Anglican Office Book... for the moment. There's a 2nd Edition coming out though, that's going to be an Office book / KJV combo. The KJV willl have the Deuterocanon! As for BCPs, I prefer the 1662 (mainly because I'm British), although I have a U.S. 1928, and it's sound. There's an excellent new edition by InterVarsity Press called The 1662 International Edition. It's a beautiful little Prayer Book that only lightly revises the language, and has quite a few extras at the back. It's also reasonably priced. The AOB is a little expensive. As is the Anglican Breviary (which I don't have, but is available online), which is basically an Anglican version of the 1911 Latin Breviary.
By the way, I received the Anthologion a couple of day ago. Wow! Impressive! :) I could only afford the bonded leather version, but even that feels great. Once I understand it better, I might try a month or two of the Lesser Hours, which still allows me to use the BCP for Mattins and Evensong. I've noticed the Psalms for the Lesser Hours are different. The ones in the AOB are mainly the Psalms of Ascent. And Compline is very similar to the Benedictine Compline.
I have the 1662 regular and international. Thanks for the heads up on the office books!
Has anyone had the privilege of attending a Gallican rite liturgy?? I feel like it would be a big hit in Louisiana
Also the Sarum use is newer than the 5th century. It was established in the 11th century.
the Stowe Missal isn't
@@Michael_Binkley The Stowe missal isn’t Sarume Use, though. It’s a mixture of Roman and Gallican stuff, but not the Sarume Use.
@@Michael_Binkley it also appears it wasn’t for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, but for other sacraments.
There were also the Mazoarabic rite in Spain :p
Good video! Just a quick correction, the Tridentine Mass is the Mass of St. Gregory, which is the Roman Rite, not the Sarum Use. The Sarum Use was authorized but the only ones that used it were forced by the English monarchy to become Anglican.
The Roman Rite was left unchanged in terms of individual prayers. Also, Trent was not the first Ecumenical Council since the schism, there were several. It was just the biggest in terms of scope due to the Protestant rebellion. Latin as a liturgical language was not new, it was mentioned specifically because the Lutherans and Calvinist’s were rejecting it. It also didn’t say vernacular could not be used per se, but that there was no theological problem with Latin. The reason the Church maintained the language despite that was specifically because the heretics of the time were rejecting it, and so it was one of the unifying factors to help in the confusion.
The filioque was centuries before Trent, and all western liturgies had been using it for centuries. The Eastern Churches were even allowed not to use it when they briefly came back to communion at Florence and one of the Lateran Councils.
You can actually read the documents of Trent.
Trent also banned any liturgies that were not older than 200 years (or 300 years?).
Also the Gallican Rite was more a collection of rites.
A really good book about the Roman Rite mass is “On the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass” by St. Robert Bellarmine. He explains why the use of Sacred Languages is apostolic, why it’s good, how even the Jews used sacred language that was different than the vernacular of the time, etc. Keep in mind, he isn’t saying it has to be in a sacred language, just that it is fitting and is no way contrary to the faith, which is what the Lutherans were saying.
Thanks for the correction!
@@philangeli Nicaea also says clerics can’t live with women. So I mean if we are going to go down the “council a says x” we can do this all day.
I don’t care if you find it dubious, the fact is the Sarum use was a later liturgy and not the liturgy of St. Gregory. It doesn’t matter where you served or what monastery you lived in. That doesn’t change facts.
Also, considering we have historical evidence still about what Trent actually said, and that it contradicts what he said, and that the Roman Rite is the rite of St. Gregory the Great, and not the Sarum Use, I’d like you to provide actual evidence that says the contrary.
I’m not sure what you think I was arguing, but pretty much nothing you said seems to be relevant.
An academic, I see. Good stuff! Thanks.
Stupid intro...? Stupid awesome... heheheh
give up discord for lent; make book reviews instead :)