Tim a little tip that might help is to build an access hole on the other side where the chimney is and start a small fire there. This way it pre heats the chimney first an then start the fire in the fire box. it should almost start right away because the draw of the hot side and once closed will keep the fire going. That stuff will burn off to ash over time. Now back to the video.
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299 you can also put a steam nozzle in the chimney to make the fire hotter when the steam engine is running. They do the same on steam locomotives, the steam nozzle pointing upwards in the chimney, creates a vacuum and pulls more air into the fire. When the fire burns but the chimney is still cold, you can blow some compressed air through the nozzle to suck the exhaust gas into the chimney, 5 seconds will be enough to get it started, from there on it will keep on going by itself...
Hey Tim! I would recommend adding a port or fitting on the inside of the chimney that would let you blow air up out through the chimney while it’s warming up. That should increase the draw of air through the rocket stove via the Venturi effect (like an airbrush paint gun) reducing the total time it takes to switch the flow by a considerable margin. If you went the fitting route then you wouldn’t need something all that large. Just a half or 3/4 inch copper tube bent at a 90 at one end and with a funnel on the other end that you could attach at a handheld leaf blower or a supped up hair drier to.
Would a swiveling top for the chimney, with a vane to have the wind keep its direction, help to encourage an earlier draw for the heat from the fire? In my area of Australia, many of the earlier houses (and some of the steam powered factories in the past) used such a swivel at the top of the chimneys to encourage draw... Just a suggestion...from a fan of the You Tube world's all time best tinkerer.
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299from experience a simple cowl will make a surprising amount of difference. The simple inverted plate type. I guess it simply works like an aircraft wing and is omnidirectional
Top job as always Tim, you’re making serious progress. I know it was hard to know if your design was “Rocket stove” enough. The noise from the chimney stack usually roars if you have the intake exhaust airflow correct. You’re dead right with insulation too. I urge you to use aircrete and vermiculite you’ll wonder how you lived without it! Unlimited potentials ahead.
""" That would be maximum stickyoutness."" LOL Awesome.. Your insulation should be the fireproof white stufff that is used in smelting kilns. I saw this stuff used to build a small kiln without any box , just the white stufff surrounding everything. excellent heat capture. CCHHEERRSSSSS
Very interesting design! Cant wait to see where it goes, though, always remember that the simplest solution will generally be the best, don't overcomplicate things!
Very cool work Tim! Jealous of the plasma cutter, everything looks great, really starting to look line an engine. Can't wait to see how much the insulation helps. This is is very exciting. As for the starting draught, not sure if it would be possible but if you could introduce another small hot fire with an oily rag or something underneath the base of the chimney just to get the draught started maybe that would help? I don't know how it would get up there, or remove the ashes, maybe a smokebox door? Or maybe a fan or blower to start the draught could help to, though I'm not quite sure how to implement this. Can't wait to see what else you have in store for us Tim!
I built a rocket stove submerged in a hot tub recently. I found the flame going through the chimney straight away. I take some fire starter and light it at the bottom of the wood box and the draft goes out of the chimney straight away. You want a very hot start. So some newspaper and fine kindling creating a fire storm in the first 30 seconds make it go out of the chimney.
Hi Tim - very interesting vid! - 1. start fire in chimney to allow it to warm/updraft - either by adding an access port - or pushing some burning material inside box bottom chimney, 2. the main airflow should be via bottom port (ash removal port - close the feeder bin once filled - all fire/smoke should be draft via chimney. 3. you can also add some air pipes down the chimney exterior to warm the air before entering the fire pit at bottom of chimney 4. consider moving the 1st boiler also inside the chimney - - maybe porpoise the first fire box to allow for boiler - as the hotter secondary burn occors there where all the gasses mix. Looking fwd to progression of test! Take care!
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299 I 've buildt rocket stove out of stacked cement blocks, as tests for space heating. You could also consider making space for fire bricks lined inside metal fire box to protect the fire box. The heated air drawn from outside could be intensional dispersed in fire box to create/assist in centre rising fire vortex forming to ensure a clean hot burn, using much less fuel, protecting side walls.
You could use plain dirt as a heat insulator. When i made my furnace, i used pipes within a bigger pipe, the cap between filled with mud i shoveled from bottom of a ditch. just 3cm thick and it was enough to keep it cold to the touch. I would advice to mix in some straw etc to keep the mud/clay/dirt from cracking over time
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299 There are youtube videos where african blacksmits make the whole iron bloom furnace out of dirt+straw and it last's several uses. Yes the inner layer of straw may burn or turn to charcoal but the outerlayer's should last long time. you could try to make a simple pot out of the stuff and scorch it with a torch to see how it withstands?
I saw the garlic patch and after that all I could think of was he could roast some garlic on that fire while waiting. Lol. I love garlic. On to watch part two and hope I don't get distracted. Blessings to all 🌻
The water designs reminds me of the Irish Kelly kettle where they have the water on the outside of the chimney. Maybe you can put the pipe wrapped around the flue on the outside and insulate all in so the heat rises quicker. Ver interesting project, loving the updates.
Just thinking out-loud... I think you need to reduce the opening for the fuel and extend it up higher. You should have equal or less area for air intake than the chimney. A little math will tell you how much to reduce it. Yes Insulation will help. Also, what if you raise the grate up above the top of the lower air inlet? Then you can slide in some paper and small kindling all the way in to warm the chimney faster. Like I said... just thinking aloud.
Both vented steam from the presser relief valve, and used steam from the pistons can be shot up the chimney to help the fire remove its own smoke and in doing so help pull in O2.
Also add door over the fuel chamber with some holes for air to speed up chimney starting. Suddenly smoke will have nowhere to go, and fire would preffer to pull fresh air in.
Very cool. As it currently is it might not get tremendously hot, but it sounds like super-efficient rocket stoves get so hot they can melt ( melting stoves are not ideal). Simple suggestions you could try are holding a small fan above the chimney just to start pulling the air; you could put a door on the fuel chute and try firing it with secondary air instead; add more baffles on the floor next to the boiler to make the air spread the heat more; and on a mark 3, you could lengthen the system, with another small space between the fire grate and the boiler to burn the residual fuel air. I really do want to wait and see what you have next for us first though.
It is exciting Tim. Have you considered a steam temperature gauge to monitor the temp at its hottest point? It would help to know at what temp the system fails when and if it does. Eventually you'll need at least one when you put the steam to an engine. Maybe? Also exciting is what Tim will choose to use as an engine. Cheers 🇨🇦
As I understand, the trick to rocket stoves, is that you are buring the fuel at a very high temp. Which is how they get their efficiency. So you don't want to be taking heat out of the burn chamber. In fact, you want to insulate the burn chamber. You take the heat from the exhaust. (Think I said similar on your previous video). Also, you will probably find that if you have the air drawn through the fuel delivery chute, the burn will work it's way up the fuel stack and the lot will be burning. That certainly happened on my first attempts. If you air seal the fuel stack once you've filled it, and add the air to the burn chamber separatly, that might work. On mine I just replaced the fuel stack with a big fire box, lined with refactory. So I just load it with wood, shut the lid and let the lot roar away. The whole thing is the burn chamber. I also have no grate, for wood I've never needed one.
Thanks, Gonzo. My plan is to take heat out of the system in 3 different place - the primary boiler won't be taking much out, I think so shouldn't affect the burn. The pipes in the chimney will take most of the heat, and finally the flash boiler will be the grate. I will experiment with closing up the fuel chute - easily done
You could add a blower motor to the top of the chimney, many model steamers do that to get started. Also once it is hot enough to can blow some of your steam up the chimney to increase the draft and temperature.
Might want to add a pressure releaf tank if you end up hooking it to your water main, If your water system has a check valve. Not a plummer but in US it's required to have. Keeps pipes from bursting with expanding steam. Just set it to the same pressure as your hot water tank on the high end, less a few psi. Brought to you by your local youtube backseat mechanic. :D
if you just made a door on the side of the chimney for access so u can put some newspaper and burn it inside the chimney, that will start the initial draft, that way no need to wait much (I'm a bit pyromaniac myself and hold a few good designs too) Great video !!!
*@Way Out West - Workshop Stuff* 5:20 You could make a side hatch under the chimney, push in some paper & light it, that will make the chimney start going very quickly. I don't think insulation is really worth it, that will be REALLY hot & maybe burn the insulation.
Add another hatch on the flue side to start a small fire to draw a draught from the fire box. start that fire first and once it gets nice and hot and a draught has formed, light the fuel in the firebox. Lots of old wood fired brick heating stoves use this method to get the draught going. They are usually stacked vertically with the flue fire over the firebox but should work just fine with your design. Dont worry about the ash since it is just a smal fire to start the draught, most of it should be drawn out with the flue gasses. As for heat loss, once you get your proof of concept weld the entire seam. I am sure there is outside air getting in reducing the efficiency by reducing the draught from the firebox and cooling the flue gasses as well.
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299 oxygen is the same provided it’s heated by a heat exchanger. Air fed into combustion in coal fired base load power stations is pre heated to increase efficiency and in general almost all waste heat that can be recovered is energy also put into feed water. I built a burn barrel recently for sticks, leaves etc and I incorporated an external sleeve of corrugated iron so air is drawn down the outside to the bottom to a slightly elevated grill and it burns very clean once hot with almost no smoke once it’s hot. Anyway something to consider
It has been done, Mark one will soon see service even though ill be hard to produce a effective amount of steam. At least when mark two gets born both heaters could combine their steam to spin a electric motor or into a pressure tank which then goes into a steam piston. and etc etc
There were a time in the around 2009 when there was a lot of work done on rocket stoves there was even a a website to exchange ideas. IIRC adding preheated air in the middle of the flue will increase the burn
I'm going to jump a step ahead, as I always do, and prod you to research steam injection pumps. They're a way to pump water into a pressurised boiler using the steam within the boiler, without any moving parts... Excluding the 3 valves required to prime the pump.
Based on my own experience, the steel will not last long in the hottest parts of the fire, with moist o2 (aka Irish Air) flying past it. Even in SoCal the air is wet enough to rust hot metal at high speed. The burn box needs to be fire brick. So... That gives you a cheaper / faster way to prototype new burn boxes: Stack bricks with a bit of high temp morter to hold them in place. Then /after/ you get the burner working at full pace, build a metal box to hold the bricks. The grate should be cast iron or something that wont rust as fast, but it can also just be replaced.
As I understand rocket stoves, the idea is that one wants the combustion area as hot as possible to release all the gases within the wood and then to be sure one can add a second air input ABOVE the fire to create a secondary burn of any gas that does not burn in the primary fire. The chimney emission should be clear with dry wood which should have a large surface area to volume and the stove should start and reach operating temperature quickly. The amount of heat that can be extracted from a wood burner with the boiler above the flames is 80%+. In my wood burner if I don't have the water circulation pump on I can easily boil the water. If heat is being extracted from the combustion area one is reducing the efficiency and wasting energy as unburnt flammable gases will escape. The entire outside of the stove can be covered with fire brick to reduce heat losses and maximise the opportunity for heat transfer to a boiler with the proviso that you don't want things so hot that any boiler materials melt. Good Luck!
think along the lines how a kelly kettle works the furniss in middle and wrapped around a boilerr will the kelly kettle version work or a rocket stove kelly kettle or something
I love these videos. Just learning about steam along the way. I'm kind of hoping you do end up building a steam engine now because it'll be such a novel design. It would be so quirky and lovable
Maybe add a small high cmf but quiet fan in a tube with a check valve to blow air through the fire🔥. Should make it easier to light and burn a lot hotter with all that O2.
You also need to make a hard kink in the airflow, to force the air to drop the ash particled. Else you'll blow the ash and some amber pieces out of the chimney or they will choke the chimney in no time. You can also add water to the collector for the ash. This avoids that vibration will dust the ash up again. Just make sure to use stainless here, ash/water mix might otherwise eat your metal away. With an outlet you can easily and dust free drop the ash/water mix and won't even suck in air through the port if you refill the container at the same time (you basically flush out the ash with water until the water is clean and then close the port again).
Hey Tim, if you're thinking about how to come up with a steam engine, you might want to look at purchasing an Indian built Tinytech engine. They're fairly rough and ready in their construction, but they should be fine for someone like you who just wants something that works. I've heard the owner of the company is quite a smart bloke with some interesting ideas, a bit like you in many ways I think. I'm sure he'd be more than happy to hear about all the things you're getting up to like the light railway and your planned charcoal making operation.
Morning Tim another interesting video, I have spent the last 30 years working in small scale steam generation commercially, and I think you will find out why monotube steam generation in a small scale is not use much, particularly wood fired however good luck . One point if you are going to superheat, you cannot use copper pipe or brass plumbing fittings the extra heat will just destroy them. You need to go to steel.
Dear Inventor Tim. 👍👌👏 Very well done (video and work). Congrats, your stage 2 oven already works much better. For further improvement please kindly allow me some suggestions/questions. And please don't get me wrong, it's definitely not meant as criticism! I simply can't resist because I'm a proven (or is it confirmed?) inventor too: 1) I think that it would be much better/more efficient for the draw/heat if the boiler would not be going completely through the fire chamber. In my opinion everything would work better if the boiler would stick out more above and therefore leave a small gap underneath it's bottom and the bottom of fire chamber. 2) I also suggest to wrap the copper pipes around the outside of the chimney and insulate everything well. In this case the draft wouldn't be hindered so much. Additionally the chimney pipe could be cleaned from soot a lot easier. 3) Maybe you could also wrap nearly the complete stove with copper pipes and especially with insulation. 4) If you like to increase the size of the stove and boiler in the future, maybe an old inert gas/acetylene/oxygen tank/bottle can be used. I'm eagerly looking forward to watch your next video. As always: Thanks a lot for making teaching explaining recording editing uploading and sharing. Best regards, luck and health from Germany to all of you.
I am a bit late maybe with this suggestion Tim, but what about wood gasification? You are going to make all that charcoal and drive of the volatiles during production. Those volatiles are pretty useful. There are some very simple devices on YT, it may be possible to get the big engine to run on wood gas.
If you have a lot of wind you might want to look at a chimney witch (like a weather vein for chimneys). They turn in the wind and increase the suction in the chimneys with it.
Here is a fun idea, why not build a fireless steam engine! (compressed air engine) you produce the pressurised gas elsewhere and just fill up the "boiler" with steam every so often. So you could use a rocket stove to make your steam, or what I think is a better idea, use your stationary engine to compress air which you can run the engine on. I think it should be easier to build than a regular steam engine but still give you the feel and some of the sounds of a normal steam engine. An alternator driven battery loco is still probably the smartest idea but I think a fireless steam engine should definitely be on the "fun ideas" list
Tim, well that’s an effective way to create steam, love it. What was wrong with the old gas bottle steamer you used to clean your hives. Are you over complicating it. That said great video and I see those hinges on the earlier stove appear to no longer be needed, let me know if you ever decide to start selling them.
*@Way Out West - Workshop Stuff* 7:20 You could probably just route the steam pipe through the fire again to heat it up even more to make it super heated steam? Can test it that way, before making the flash boiler?
Tim insulation iedas have the whole thing ceramic coated by a company that ceramic coats exhaust manifolds that should reduce the heat loss through the sides of the stove and increase the heat of the gasses and protect it rusting more.
When we talk about insulation, what do we mean, koa wool/ ceramic fibre mats all the way up around everything? And rigidised? That stuff is great heat resistant insulation but incredibly dangerous to breath in but I’m sure you are aware. Or do you have a different solution in mind? Very excited!
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299 your case is perhaps more aligned with blacksmithing and pottery kilns than the classic living room woodburner I think, given you are trying to retain as much heat as possible to enable fastest boiling times. What temperatures are you expecting for the firebox once insulated, and do you need to be able to “pull the plug” at any stage during burning to quickly get to the innards of your firebox? That might dictate the materials as some might be easier to remove and put back into place than others. I read rockwool (as many other mineral fibres) becomes crystalline above a certain temperature though, at which point it is more likely to end up in your lungs through vibration etc of the whole contraption- maybe perlite all round is better as a first layer, then rockwool around that? My gas forge has a 1” layer of that koawool but it’s not exactly a fair comparison as two propane burners create insane heat and there is no flue. I have managed to forge quite well with charcoal fire with a hairdryer forcing air in from underneath, so with that cone possibilities for you too I feel- maybe a battery powered blower for the first few minutes to get the water boiling and the glue to draw? It’s going to be a small cost but help make the startup process so much more efficient. By the way if you ran that setup a lot a lot, you might also see some oxidisation of the steel so may need to have parts like the grate replaced after a while. I’ll stop rambling. You’ve got this :-)
What do you need to do is have a pressure gauge and seeing how much pressure you can produce in that boiler. In the miniature World a lot of the steam engines have the pressure gauges to see how much power the boiler can hold. Most small boilers will hold up 200ps in the engine. If there was a way I can contact you or give you some information I'd like to try to help that give you some ideas
Thanks but this is not a pressurised boiler - it's going to be a flash-steam boiler. So the steam pressure never rises more than the pressure of the water.
I'm afraid you fell for the youtube bastardized version of a "rocket" stove. A true rocket stove has as it's most important and most misunderstood feature is an insulated firebox. This is more akin to a foundry furnace. Really like a furnace within a furnace. The fire is burnt within the first inner firebox then the exhaust gasses are redirected downwards around the outside of that with the secondary insulated wall. This allows all the fuel and gasses (smoke) to get up to combustable temperature. The most important part is never to put the boiler within the firebox because it constantly cools the fire. Rather locate the boiler downstream from the firebox into the flu, this is where the best heat exchange takes place. The heat and pressure of this type of firebox is what makes it possible to cool the flue but still produce a substantial draft. This all does go against the traditional steam boiler conventions which is little more than a teapot on a fire, but is what differentiates a true "Rocket" stove design. Essentially if you aren't on the cusp of melting your refractory lined firebox, don't call it a rocket stove.
Absolutely agree with @TgWags. The flu should initially run upwards from the fire throat, from bottom to top of an insulated (think vermiculite here) enclosing barrel like container, venting into the barrel close to its upper surface. Picture an inverted cup sitting on top of a vertical pipe and you'll get the picture. Secondary air introduced at the base of that short flu will turbocharge the heating process in the flu as the secondary burning of the gases occurs. The remainder of the flu will arise from the base of the barrel so that the superheated gases have to flow from the top of the barrel down to the bottom to escape. The heater coil for the water sits within the barrel in the flow of superheated gases. Hundreds of degrees is possible. The bastardised internet rocket stove design (well named btw!) is only intended as a glorified camping stove and will only reach a couple of hundred degrees. That certainly is a nice one though, you're a craftsman. My explanation is probably not the best but a few hours on UA-cam will give you more info that you can possibly handle ;) Good luck, I'm looking forward to developments.
@@philthorpe4549 Thanks for the additional descriptions. I was having a hard time describing it. Also, I do want to echo the sentiments of appreciating Tim's work, ingenuity and craftsmanship. It is why I watch. I apologize if my tone sounded harsh. I tend to assume that people know I'm just passing on information and trying to help but realize I often come across rather blunt. Looking forward to the progress as well!
@@philthorpe4549 Interesting comments, you and TgWags, I've been seeing quite some conflict in what is and isn't a rocket stove including the diversion to rocket mass heater..... There was me thinking these were old things, and again there is conflict. It seems that the (modern) rocket stove was developed as recently as 1980, and I guess its lack of maturity is one reason many people have taken the basic principals, enhanced or disgarded them and come up with their own "better, improved rocket 2.0 stove" So, what's the fundamental(s) of a rocket stove? Simply: get enough oxygen into the product of primary combustion such that complete secondary combustion occurs. That means that primary air should pass through the fuel. If primary combustion gasses pass through the fuel it will cause pyrolysis of the feedstock and make even firing difficult. Given that then vertical or sloped fuel feed mean that gravity will keep the flame in the right place while permitting easy refuelling. That's where a strong draw on the flue is required. Then there is the need to ensure that there is sufficient air and heat to enable the primary combustion gasses and particulates to burn. The air flow can be achieved by ensuring the fuel is loosely packed or there is an air path past it or a secondary air path. The requirement for heat (700 C and up) mean that a refractory lining is essential, not only for insulation, but also steel and stainless steel will have a very short life at those temperatures. Metal only constructions will have large volumes where primary combustion gasses are too cool to combust. Thanks to both of you, without your posts I was just about to head down a wasteful design route. I said (modern) design since it appears that the Romans were there first, the hypocaust systems implemented all rocket stove principals. What did the Romans ever do for us eh?
At that point i would probably start thinking about making boiler a hollow cylinder around the chimney with ribs (like on electric motor) on the inside of chimney to catch more heat.
Have you thought of starting an online discussion area, such as a discord server. That way you could post pictures like your chimney blueprint and then people could either agree or advise you live before you actually go ahead with it, instead of you doing a project only for a commenter to point out something crucial.
Good idea, Lickey. But I spend too much time in front of the computer as it is. But this process is working too - I learn a lot and then put something up for comment and then try something else
Steam locomotives / engines have water injectors in which you open the outside valve to let cold water in, close that, open the inside valve to let enough steam in to equalize the pressure before letting the cold water in. Some are close to the boiler so that they can be left to heat up to near 100.D.C. before injection to reduce condensing
Looks well built. Only thing that I don't understand is the reason for the bottom of the round boiler to stick out below the bottom of the stove? In other words, why did you cut the second round hole? I am assuming that it would be better not to expose that bottom to cold outside air but to raise that boiler up so that the bottom is one inch or so above the bottom of the stove.
You could be right - I was thinking I could try out different positions to see where's best. But water is good at layering by heat, so I only need to boil the top-most part
![[UA] Eternal Fire проти NAVI | EPL Season 20 Malta](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/chvlsDygrZM/mqdefault.jpg)
Tim a little tip that might help is to build an access hole on the other side where the chimney is and start a small fire there. This way it pre heats the chimney first an then start the fire in the fire box. it should almost start right away because the draw of the hot side and once closed will keep the fire going. That stuff will burn off to ash over time.
Now back to the video.
Good idea, William. Thanks
That’s a good idea I think..
Couldn't you just heat the chimney with a blow torch to get the draw going?
@@philiponsolent7232 you could yet it cost money over time to have a torch.
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299 you can also put a steam nozzle in the chimney to make the fire hotter when the steam engine is running.
They do the same on steam locomotives, the steam nozzle pointing upwards in the chimney, creates a vacuum and pulls more air into the fire.
When the fire burns but the chimney is still cold, you can blow some compressed air through the nozzle to suck the exhaust gas into the chimney, 5 seconds will be enough to get it started, from there on it will keep on going by itself...
Hey Tim! I would recommend adding a port or fitting on the inside of the chimney that would let you blow air up out through the chimney while it’s warming up. That should increase the draw of air through the rocket stove via the Venturi effect (like an airbrush paint gun) reducing the total time it takes to switch the flow by a considerable margin. If you went the fitting route then you wouldn’t need something all that large. Just a half or 3/4 inch copper tube bent at a 90 at one end and with a funnel on the other end that you could attach at a handheld leaf blower or a supped up hair drier to.
Yep, that makes sense, thanks.
Yes this is how we start our 10 inch gauge locos
Would a swiveling top for the chimney, with a vane to have the wind keep its direction, help to encourage an earlier draw for the heat from the fire? In my area of Australia, many of the earlier houses (and some of the steam powered factories in the past) used such a swivel at the top of the chimneys to encourage draw...
Just a suggestion...from a fan of the You Tube world's all time best tinkerer.
Good idea!
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299from experience a simple cowl will make a surprising amount of difference. The simple inverted plate type. I guess it simply works like an aircraft wing and is omnidirectional
Ok yeah the steam engine is coming together
Top job as always Tim, you’re making serious progress. I know it was hard to know if your design was “Rocket stove” enough. The noise from the chimney stack usually roars if you have the intake exhaust airflow correct. You’re dead right with insulation too. I urge you to use aircrete and vermiculite you’ll wonder how you lived without it! Unlimited potentials ahead.
""" That would be maximum stickyoutness."" LOL Awesome..
Your insulation should be the fireproof white stufff that is used in smelting kilns. I saw this stuff used to build a small kiln without any box , just the white stufff surrounding everything.
excellent heat capture. CCHHEERRSSSSS
Very interesting design! Cant wait to see where it goes, though, always remember that the simplest solution will generally be the best, don't overcomplicate things!
Occam's razor
It's so great to see you learning things as you go, and solving problems and trying things out. Your enthusiasm is infectious :)
Very cool work Tim! Jealous of the plasma cutter, everything looks great, really starting to look line an engine. Can't wait to see how much the insulation helps. This is is very exciting.
As for the starting draught, not sure if it would be possible but if you could introduce another small hot fire with an oily rag or something underneath the base of the chimney just to get the draught started maybe that would help? I don't know how it would get up there, or remove the ashes, maybe a smokebox door?
Or maybe a fan or blower to start the draught could help to, though I'm not quite sure how to implement this.
Can't wait to see what else you have in store for us Tim!
Yes, that could work - thanks!
No suggestions from me. Steam just makes me quake in my boots. You be careful and have fun. I'll be over here watching.
I built a rocket stove submerged in a hot tub recently. I found the flame going through the chimney straight away. I take some fire starter and light it at the bottom of the wood box and the draft goes out of the chimney straight away. You want a very hot start. So some newspaper and fine kindling creating a fire storm in the first 30 seconds make it go out of the chimney.
Hi Tim - very interesting vid! -
1. start fire in chimney to allow it to warm/updraft - either by adding an access port - or pushing some burning material inside box bottom chimney,
2. the main airflow should be via bottom port (ash removal port - close the feeder bin once filled - all fire/smoke should be draft via chimney.
3. you can also add some air pipes down the chimney exterior to warm the air before entering the fire pit at bottom of chimney
4. consider moving the 1st boiler also inside the chimney - - maybe porpoise the first fire box to allow for boiler - as the hotter secondary burn occors there where all the gasses mix.
Looking fwd to progression of test!
Take care!
Good ideas, Pieter. Thanks. (So much to learn!!)
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299 I 've buildt rocket stove out of stacked cement blocks, as tests for space heating.
You could also consider making space for fire bricks lined inside metal fire box to protect the fire box.
The heated air drawn from outside could be intensional dispersed in fire box to create/assist in centre rising fire vortex forming to ensure a clean hot burn, using much less fuel, protecting side walls.
You could use plain dirt as a heat insulator.
When i made my furnace, i used pipes within a bigger pipe, the cap between filled with mud i shoveled from bottom of a ditch.
just 3cm thick and it was enough to keep it cold to the touch.
I would advice to mix in some straw etc to keep the mud/clay/dirt from cracking over time
I do want to insulate, but I'm hoping that everything will be too hot to use straw
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299 There are youtube videos where african blacksmits make the whole iron bloom furnace out of dirt+straw and it last's several uses.
Yes the inner layer of straw may burn or turn to charcoal but the outerlayer's should last long time.
you could try to make a simple pot out of the stuff and scorch it with a torch to see how it withstands?
Brilliant, thanks for sharing
Love the « teaser » at the end 😂
« Wait till next time… »
Sticky outy is my favorite leg formation.
Great video as always.
I saw the garlic patch and after that all I could think of was he could roast some garlic on that fire while waiting. Lol. I love garlic. On to watch part two and hope I don't get distracted. Blessings to all 🌻
We're just about to start harvesting those...!
Great progress. 😊
Sticky-outy legs is a crucial safety precaution!
Always!
Some make a rocket stove charcoal maker indoor to heat the workshop in the meantime, yes the use off that after burner is amazing
Love the technical jargon, “had to make the legs sticky-outtie” lol
The water designs reminds me of the Irish Kelly kettle where they have the water on the outside of the chimney. Maybe you can put the pipe wrapped around the flue on the outside and insulate all in so the heat rises quicker. Ver interesting project, loving the updates.
Interesting!
Tim, it is very exciting, can't wait for the next installment!
Just thinking out-loud... I think you need to reduce the opening for the fuel and extend it up higher.
You should have equal or less area for air intake than the chimney. A little math will tell you how much to reduce it.
Yes Insulation will help.
Also, what if you raise the grate up above the top of the lower air inlet?
Then you can slide in some paper and small kindling all the way in to warm the chimney faster.
Like I said... just thinking aloud.
Thanks, Dusty. Good ideas.
Nice bit of tinkering there bro. Yep exciting stuff alright. Safe travels
Both vented steam from the presser relief valve, and used steam from the pistons can be shot up the chimney to help the fire remove its own smoke and in doing so help pull in O2.
You're right, but that's not useful at start-up : - (
It's coming together nicely 👌 😎 all we needed is somewhere to roast chestnuts 🌰
I was thinking the same thing
Also add door over the fuel chamber with some holes for air to speed up chimney starting. Suddenly smoke will have nowhere to go, and fire would preffer to pull fresh air in.
Very cool. As it currently is it might not get tremendously hot, but it sounds like super-efficient rocket stoves get so hot they can melt ( melting stoves are not ideal).
Simple suggestions you could try are holding a small fan above the chimney just to start pulling the air; you could put a door on the fuel chute and try firing it with secondary air instead; add more baffles on the floor next to the boiler to make the air spread the heat more; and on a mark 3, you could lengthen the system, with another small space between the fire grate and the boiler to burn the residual fuel air. I really do want to wait and see what you have next for us first though.
Good idea. Thanks
One of the best channels on UA-cam
The leeks are coming on nicely! As is the project, great work Tim :)
Garlic, Joe! But yes they are : - )
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299 garlic was my first guess 😂 should have stuck with my gut! Even better 😋
This does feel like i am watching one of Fred Dibnahs programs. Great
The Steam Engine is taking shape.
*The Charcoal Empire has begun.*
*THAT ALL THE GRILLS OF EVERY BBQs BE FED WITH YOUR CHARCOAL!*
Oh, little detail: Do not forget to put a "hat" or roof on top of the chimney to avoid the problem of rain!
Very interesting, agree on the insulation, maybe a double layer of metal with an air gap between
It is exciting Tim. Have you considered a steam temperature gauge to monitor the temp at its hottest point? It would help to know at what temp the system fails when and if it does.
Eventually you'll need at least one when you put the steam to an engine. Maybe?
Also exciting is what Tim will choose to use as an engine. Cheers 🇨🇦
Very exciting Tim loving following this project!
As I understand, the trick to rocket stoves, is that you are buring the fuel at a very high temp. Which is how they get their efficiency. So you don't want to be taking heat out of the burn chamber. In fact, you want to insulate the burn chamber. You take the heat from the exhaust.
(Think I said similar on your previous video).
Also, you will probably find that if you have the air drawn through the fuel delivery chute, the burn will work it's way up the fuel stack and the lot will be burning. That certainly happened on my first attempts.
If you air seal the fuel stack once you've filled it, and add the air to the burn chamber separatly, that might work.
On mine I just replaced the fuel stack with a big fire box, lined with refactory. So I just load it with wood, shut the lid and let the lot roar away. The whole thing is the burn chamber. I also have no grate, for wood I've never needed one.
Thanks, Gonzo. My plan is to take heat out of the system in 3 different place - the primary boiler won't be taking much out, I think so shouldn't affect the burn. The pipes in the chimney will take most of the heat, and finally the flash boiler will be the grate.
I will experiment with closing up the fuel chute - easily done
You could add a blower motor to the top of the chimney, many model steamers do that to get started. Also once it is hot enough to can blow some of your steam up the chimney to increase the draft and temperature.
Might want to add a pressure releaf tank if you end up hooking it to your water main, If your water system has a check valve. Not a plummer but in US it's required to have. Keeps pipes from bursting with expanding steam. Just set it to the same pressure as your hot water tank on the high end, less a few psi.
Brought to you by your local youtube backseat mechanic. :D
if you just made a door on the side of the chimney for access so u can put some newspaper and burn it inside the chimney, that will start the initial draft, that way no need to wait much (I'm a bit pyromaniac myself and hold a few good designs too) Great video !!!
*@Way Out West - Workshop Stuff*
5:20 You could make a side hatch under the chimney, push in some paper & light it, that will make the chimney start going very quickly.
I don't think insulation is really worth it, that will be REALLY hot & maybe burn the insulation.
Add another hatch on the flue side to start a small fire to draw a draught from the fire box. start that fire first and once it gets nice and hot and a draught has formed, light the fuel in the firebox. Lots of old wood fired brick heating stoves use this method to get the draught going. They are usually stacked vertically with the flue fire over the firebox but should work just fine with your design. Dont worry about the ash since it is just a smal fire to start the draught, most of it should be drawn out with the flue gasses. As for heat loss, once you get your proof of concept weld the entire seam. I am sure there is outside air getting in reducing the efficiency by reducing the draught from the firebox and cooling the flue gasses as well.
I just thought of that too! We are on the same page!
Another concept you might also consider incorporating is preheating of the air by using a heat exchanger on your chimney or firebox
Some say that makes things worse though - because there's less oxygen in warm air
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299 oxygen is the same provided it’s heated by a heat exchanger. Air fed into combustion in coal fired base load power stations is pre heated to increase efficiency and in general almost all waste heat that can be recovered is energy also put into feed water.
I built a burn barrel recently for sticks, leaves etc and I incorporated an external sleeve of corrugated iron so air is drawn down the outside to the bottom to a slightly elevated grill and it burns very clean once hot with almost no smoke once it’s hot.
Anyway something to consider
It has been done, Mark one will soon see service even though ill be hard to produce a effective amount of steam. At least when mark two gets born both heaters could combine their steam to spin a electric motor or into a pressure tank which then goes into a steam piston. and etc etc
Good luck Tim!
Thanks!
Just paint on some plaster/refractory cement for insulation. We used to use asbestos mixed in, but you know how that went.
Thanks, I didn't realise you could buy it as a paint. (BTW, they're making asbestos again, apparently.)
Genius. Great work as always.
There were a time in the around 2009 when there was a lot of work done on rocket stoves there was even a a website to exchange ideas. IIRC adding preheated air in the middle of the flue will increase the burn
love it, can't wait to see it complete and working
This is a wonderful experiment you are conducting. I can't wait to see what you do next.
Good evening Sir 😉 You have made an OUSTANDING SUPER Rocket Stove Water Heater 👍👌💪😉 That is very well engineer Sir 💪👌🧐 Cheers 🍻
I'm going to jump a step ahead, as I always do, and prod you to research steam injection pumps.
They're a way to pump water into a pressurised boiler using the steam within the boiler, without any moving parts... Excluding the 3 valves required to prime the pump.
Exactly - I must do just that. Thanks
put some wings on the waterboiler
Nice!
Loving this.😀👍
A small door into the chimney so you can put a bit of tinder in to start the chimney drawing might help.
'looks about right = Ha Haha Ha
that plasma cutter is Great!
I can't imagine ANY idea of Tim's NOT working.... Eventually. Genius comes in all sorts of ways. He definitely had some kind of engineering genius.
Based on my own experience, the steel will not last long in the hottest parts of the fire, with moist o2 (aka Irish Air) flying past it. Even in SoCal the air is wet enough to rust hot metal at high speed. The burn box needs to be fire brick. So... That gives you a cheaper / faster way to prototype new burn boxes: Stack bricks with a bit of high temp morter to hold them in place. Then /after/ you get the burner working at full pace, build a metal box to hold the bricks. The grate should be cast iron or something that wont rust as fast, but it can also just be replaced.
Fire brick also helps insulate. Inside, where you need it.
You're right - I just wish I had access to a pile of those bricks.
(Also the grate will be steel tube soon)
you need a longer intake for
- more fule (wood)
- better air movement
As I understand rocket stoves, the idea is that one wants the combustion area as hot as possible to release all the gases within the wood and then to be sure one can add a second air input ABOVE the fire to create a secondary burn of any gas that does not burn in the primary fire. The chimney emission should be clear with dry wood which should have a large surface area to volume and the stove should start and reach operating temperature quickly. The amount of heat that can be extracted from a wood burner with the boiler above the flames is 80%+. In my wood burner if I don't have the water circulation pump on I can easily boil the water. If heat is being extracted from the combustion area one is reducing the efficiency and wasting energy as unburnt flammable gases will escape. The entire outside of the stove can be covered with fire brick to reduce heat losses and maximise the opportunity for heat transfer to a boiler with the proviso that you don't want things so hot that any boiler materials melt. Good Luck!
think along the lines how a kelly kettle works the furniss in middle and wrapped around a boilerr will the kelly kettle version work or a rocket stove kelly kettle or something
Thank you me handsome from the other end of the island
Sticky outey for stability, I will use that at the next opportunity
Thank you
Nice projec:)
I love these videos. Just learning about steam along the way. I'm kind of hoping you do end up building a steam engine now because it'll be such a novel design. It would be so quirky and lovable
Maybe add a small high cmf but quiet fan in a tube with a check valve to blow air through the fire🔥. Should make it easier to light and burn a lot hotter with all that O2.
one idea to help the air to reverse flow is possibly adding a fan that could be powered with a drill at the top of the chimney
You also need to make a hard kink in the airflow, to force the air to drop the ash particled. Else you'll blow the ash and some amber pieces out of the chimney or they will choke the chimney in no time.
You can also add water to the collector for the ash. This avoids that vibration will dust the ash up again. Just make sure to use stainless here, ash/water mix might otherwise eat your metal away.
With an outlet you can easily and dust free drop the ash/water mix and won't even suck in air through the port if you refill the container at the same time (you basically flush out the ash with water until the water is clean and then close the port again).
Wonderful
Hey Tim, if you're thinking about how to come up with a steam engine, you might want to look at purchasing an Indian built Tinytech engine. They're fairly rough and ready in their construction, but they should be fine for someone like you who just wants something that works. I've heard the owner of the company is quite a smart bloke with some interesting ideas, a bit like you in many ways I think. I'm sure he'd be more than happy to hear about all the things you're getting up to like the light railway and your planned charcoal making operation.
"Stickey outey" is my favourite engineering term :D
: - )
Very exciting indeed! Did you try burning with the ash door open?
He should try it at least partway open to get more air for secondary combustion
I tried lots of positions and found the best (once it was hot) was to have it closed. But more experiments needed..
keep calm and make tea
Morning Tim another interesting video, I have spent the last 30 years working in small scale steam generation commercially, and I think you will find out why monotube steam generation in a small scale is not use much, particularly wood fired however good luck . One point if you are going to superheat, you cannot use copper pipe or brass plumbing fittings the extra heat will just destroy them. You need to go to steel.
Dear Inventor Tim.
👍👌👏 Very well done (video and work). Congrats, your stage 2 oven already works much better. For further improvement please kindly allow me some suggestions/questions. And please don't get me wrong, it's definitely not meant as criticism! I simply can't resist because I'm a proven (or is it confirmed?) inventor too:
1) I think that it would be much better/more efficient for the draw/heat if the boiler would not be going completely through the fire chamber. In my opinion everything would work better if the boiler would stick out more above and therefore leave a small gap underneath it's bottom and the bottom of fire chamber.
2) I also suggest to wrap the copper pipes around the outside of the chimney and insulate everything well. In this case the draft wouldn't be hindered so much. Additionally the chimney pipe could be cleaned from soot a lot easier.
3) Maybe you could also wrap nearly the complete stove with copper pipes and especially with insulation.
4) If you like to increase the size of the stove and boiler in the future, maybe an old inert gas/acetylene/oxygen tank/bottle can be used.
I'm eagerly looking forward to watch your next video.
As always: Thanks a lot for making teaching explaining recording editing uploading and sharing.
Best regards, luck and health from Germany to all of you.
Boiler maybe in chimney hot exhaust would flow around entire body.
I am a bit late maybe with this suggestion Tim, but what about wood gasification? You are going to make all that charcoal and drive of the volatiles during production. Those volatiles are pretty useful. There are some very simple devices on YT, it may be possible to get the big engine to run on wood gas.
I don't think diesel engines like what Tim's got are really suitable for wood gas. Petrol engines go just fine on it though.
If you have a lot of wind you might want to look at a chimney witch (like a weather vein for chimneys). They turn in the wind and increase the suction in the chimneys with it.
Here is a fun idea, why not build a fireless steam engine! (compressed air engine) you produce the pressurised gas elsewhere and just fill up the "boiler" with steam every so often. So you could use a rocket stove to make your steam, or what I think is a better idea, use your stationary engine to compress air which you can run the engine on. I think it should be easier to build than a regular steam engine but still give you the feel and some of the sounds of a normal steam engine. An alternator driven battery loco is still probably the smartest idea but I think a fireless steam engine should definitely be on the "fun ideas" list
that would mean building two pressure tanks though - I'm a bit wary of pressurized steam.
REALLY cool 😎 👌 👍
Tim, well that’s an effective way to create steam, love it. What was wrong with the old gas bottle steamer you used to clean your hives. Are you over complicating it. That said great video and I see those hinges on the earlier stove appear to no longer be needed, let me know if you ever decide to start selling them.
Anytime. You can have the old stove too, if you like - but you'd need to collect it
*@Way Out West - Workshop Stuff*
7:20 You could probably just route the steam pipe through the fire again to heat it up even more to make it super heated steam?
Can test it that way, before making the flash boiler?
Yes, that's the plan - the flash boiler will be inside the grate, I hope
Tim insulation iedas have the whole thing ceramic coated by a company that ceramic coats exhaust manifolds that should reduce the heat loss through the sides of the stove and increase the heat of the gasses and protect it rusting more.
Sounds expensive, Ben?
When we talk about insulation, what do we mean, koa wool/ ceramic fibre mats all the way up around everything? And rigidised? That stuff is great heat resistant insulation but incredibly dangerous to breath in but I’m sure you are aware. Or do you have a different solution in mind? Very excited!
I'm thinking vermiculite around the chimney somehow, and rock wool wrapped around the firebox? What do you think?
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299 your case is perhaps more aligned with blacksmithing and pottery kilns than the classic living room woodburner I think, given you are trying to retain as much heat as possible to enable fastest boiling times. What temperatures are you expecting for the firebox once insulated, and do you need to be able to “pull the plug” at any stage during burning to quickly get to the innards of your firebox? That might dictate the materials as some might be easier to remove and put back into place than others. I read rockwool (as many other mineral fibres) becomes crystalline above a certain temperature though, at which point it is more likely to end up in your lungs through vibration etc of the whole contraption- maybe perlite all round is better as a first layer, then rockwool around that? My gas forge has a 1” layer of that koawool but it’s not exactly a fair comparison as two propane burners create insane heat and there is no flue.
I have managed to forge quite well with charcoal fire with a hairdryer forcing air in from underneath, so with that cone possibilities for you too I feel- maybe a battery powered blower for the first few minutes to get the water boiling and the glue to draw? It’s going to be a small cost but help make the startup process so much more efficient.
By the way if you ran that setup a lot a lot, you might also see some oxidisation of the steel so may need to have parts like the grate replaced after a while.
I’ll stop rambling. You’ve got this :-)
@@alexnosheds Ha! Well, I'm not sure I really have this at all, but I'll keep plodding along.. : - )
I'm thinking you going to need a bigger boiler for the piston your thinking of driving
I love your videos
What do you need to do is have a pressure gauge and seeing how much pressure you can produce in that boiler. In the miniature World a lot of the steam engines have the pressure gauges to see how much power the boiler can hold. Most small boilers will hold up 200ps in the engine. If there was a way I can contact you or give you some information I'd like to try to help that give you some ideas
Thanks but this is not a pressurised boiler - it's going to be a flash-steam boiler. So the steam pressure never rises more than the pressure of the water.
"Sticky outty" that's the technical term people 😉
I'm afraid you fell for the youtube bastardized version of a "rocket" stove. A true rocket stove has as it's most important and most misunderstood feature is an insulated firebox. This is more akin to a foundry furnace. Really like a furnace within a furnace. The fire is burnt within the first inner firebox then the exhaust gasses are redirected downwards around the outside of that with the secondary insulated wall. This allows all the fuel and gasses (smoke) to get up to combustable temperature. The most important part is never to put the boiler within the firebox because it constantly cools the fire. Rather locate the boiler downstream from the firebox into the flu, this is where the best heat exchange takes place. The heat and pressure of this type of firebox is what makes it possible to cool the flue but still produce a substantial draft. This all does go against the traditional steam boiler conventions which is little more than a teapot on a fire, but is what differentiates a true "Rocket" stove design. Essentially if you aren't on the cusp of melting your refractory lined firebox, don't call it a rocket stove.
Absolutely agree with @TgWags. The flu should initially run upwards from the fire throat, from bottom to top of an insulated (think vermiculite here) enclosing barrel like container, venting into the barrel close to its upper surface. Picture an inverted cup sitting on top of a vertical pipe and you'll get the picture. Secondary air introduced at the base of that short flu will turbocharge the heating process in the flu as the secondary burning of the gases occurs. The remainder of the flu will arise from the base of the barrel so that the superheated gases have to flow from the top of the barrel down to the bottom to escape. The heater coil for the water sits within the barrel in the flow of superheated gases. Hundreds of degrees is possible. The bastardised internet rocket stove design (well named btw!) is only intended as a glorified camping stove and will only reach a couple of hundred degrees. That certainly is a nice one though, you're a craftsman. My explanation is probably not the best but a few hours on UA-cam will give you more info that you can possibly handle ;) Good luck, I'm looking forward to developments.
@@philthorpe4549 Thanks for the additional descriptions. I was having a hard time describing it. Also, I do want to echo the sentiments of appreciating Tim's work, ingenuity and craftsmanship. It is why I watch. I apologize if my tone sounded harsh. I tend to assume that people know I'm just passing on information and trying to help but realize I often come across rather blunt. Looking forward to the progress as well!
@@philthorpe4549 Interesting comments, you and TgWags, I've been seeing quite some conflict in what is and isn't a rocket stove including the diversion to rocket mass heater.....
There was me thinking these were old things, and again there is conflict.
It seems that the (modern) rocket stove was developed as recently as 1980, and I guess its lack of maturity is one reason many people have taken the basic principals, enhanced or disgarded them and come up with their own "better, improved rocket 2.0 stove"
So, what's the fundamental(s) of a rocket stove?
Simply: get enough oxygen into the product of primary combustion such that complete secondary combustion occurs.
That means that primary air should pass through the fuel. If primary combustion gasses pass through the fuel it will cause pyrolysis of the feedstock and make even firing difficult. Given that then vertical or sloped fuel feed mean that gravity will keep the flame in the right place while permitting easy refuelling. That's where a strong draw on the flue is required.
Then there is the need to ensure that there is sufficient air and heat to enable the primary combustion gasses and particulates to burn. The air flow can be achieved by ensuring the fuel is loosely packed or there is an air path past it or a secondary air path. The requirement for heat (700 C and up) mean that a refractory lining is essential, not only for insulation, but also steel and stainless steel will have a very short life at those temperatures. Metal only constructions will have large volumes where primary combustion gasses are too cool to combust.
Thanks to both of you, without your posts I was just about to head down a wasteful design route.
I said (modern) design since it appears that the Romans were there first, the hypocaust systems implemented all rocket stove principals.
What did the Romans ever do for us eh?
Thanks everyone. Excellent advice. Back to the drawing board for me..
At that point i would probably start thinking about making boiler a hollow cylinder around the chimney with ribs (like on electric motor) on the inside of chimney to catch more heat.
Have you thought of starting an online discussion area, such as a discord server. That way you could post pictures like your chimney blueprint and then people could either agree or advise you live before you actually go ahead with it, instead of you doing a project only for a commenter to point out something crucial.
Good idea, Lickey. But I spend too much time in front of the computer as it is. But this process is working too - I learn a lot and then put something up for comment and then try something else
Interesting. I would have just jacked the fire box my self. But there's more then one way to heat water.
Steam locomotives / engines have water injectors in which you open the outside valve to let cold water in, close that, open the inside valve to let enough steam in to equalize the pressure before letting the cold water in. Some are close to the boiler so that they can be left to heat up to near 100.D.C. before injection to reduce condensing
Yes, but I'm trying to build a non-pressurized boiler
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299 Oh, you mean a kettle? ;-)
Now I know the meaning of the word “flange” (non native English speaker here)
Apparently it comes from the French...
Ugh! No chalkboard sounds next time, please! Other than than, a great video as usual. Keep it up!
Vermiculite makes a good low cost high temperature insulation
Looks well built. Only thing that I don't understand is the reason for the bottom of the round boiler to stick out below the bottom of the stove?
In other words, why did you cut the second round hole?
I am assuming that it would be better not to expose that bottom to cold outside air but to raise that boiler up so that the bottom is one inch or so above the bottom of the stove.
You could be right - I was thinking I could try out different positions to see where's best. But water is good at layering by heat, so I only need to boil the top-most part
Don't forget to get an over Pressure relief valve for safety purposes.