You and Dr Gill (of Nutrition made Simple) deserve a high level of admiration for your objectivity. Despite my respect for many WFPB practitioners, you two are fast becoming my go-to spokespeople for truth and clarity about nutrition. I think I speak for others who consume a largely plant based diet, but are open to eating very small amounts of select animal products, that this site feels like home. Thank you for these educational videos and for your tolerance and kindness.
Good discussion, including of our RCT. Alan has certainly done his homework; he did a very nice job summarizing the very extensive literature. And I enjoy the calm inquisive way you are guiding these discussions, Simon. Good contrubution!
@@happyhealthylife4ever Does this question 'YOU wanted to answer' have to be black and white? Could the question not just be 'can dairy be part of a diet for an optimal health?' and thus remove personal bias's and leave door open for personal preferences and diversity?
Even though i personally choose to omit dairy in my daily diet, i do appreciate that you had the guts to go "against" the PCRM fear mongering. I know you are plant based/vegan, which is why i appreciate it even more... Ethics should not muddy the waters of science. in fact, ethics has nothing to do with science, so they can't and shouldn't mix. Clairty, honesty, science... in the end nobody likes being lied to, or being scared into a certain way of living. if you choose to be plant exclusive, or vegan for ethics, or a mix of the two: you want the choice to be fuelled by positivity and FACTS. The PCRM thing has always bothered me... i actually feel like it is detrimental in helping people going plant based for the long term, because the foundation on which these life choices are being made are fear based, which, if you think about it, could cause people to move to a different lifestyle/diet based on fear more easily... which is what we've seen happening over and over with "ex vegans" going full carnivore. This carnivore switch is far from scientific, and actually all fear driven... My thoughts are that lying about dairy like how PCRM does (or heavily cherry picking) is not much different from some of the carnivore/keto lies people spread online. It is not scientific and fear based.
I am sorry you feel that way about PCRM. I don't get that from them. I wonder if PCRM ideas or whole food plant based eating threatens people's cultures or ideas about health and makes them feel ashamed about eating a certain way. I think in reporting all nutrition information people should also understand quantities of measure. For example nearly all of our water supply in the United States has carcinogens in it and people will develop leukemia from our water supply but its a very small number. More people would die not drinking water than those developing leukemia so I would not tell you to stop drinking water. Another point is there are well known health benefits to exercise and the more the better, but I would not shame someone for not working out only encourage them to work out more something most of us could likely improve upon.
Many thanks for your consistent attempts at getting objective evidence in these various discussions. We heard about how casein was a 'cancer switch' a decade or so ago, from "China Study". Some of these tenets along with "oil is total junk food" and similar now seem to be in some doubt. Regarding bone health, I am interested in you comparing and possibly contrasting resistance type exercises (leg presses etc.) with impulsive type exercises (power walking, jogging etc.).
Good discussion. I always appreciate the adherence to objectivity on these shows. I keep my eating pretty plant-forward, but have always made room for small amounts of low fat cheese. I understand the ethical considerations for avoiding it, but health-wise I've never felt it was a huge negative for me. My lipids have been stable for years, and I've never had any skin issues from it. A little feta on a salad or hummus wrap goes a long way for enhancing the flavor, for me anyways.
Dairy Intake and Parkinson's Disease: A Mendelian Randomization Study - January 2022 in Movement Disorders Using MR, our findings provide further support for a causal relationship between dairy intake and higher PD risk, not biased by confounding or reverse causation. Further studies are needed to elucidate the underlying mechanisms.
I don’t have any known allergy or intolerance, but when I became vegan, my period flow decreased and I stopped having cramps. I thought this could be due to not consuming hormones from dairy, eggs and meat, but I understand correlation is not causation. 12 years vegan now, and eating tofu daily - nearly all my PMS have disappeared, with exception of some tiredness in the first 2 days. I also have no headaches at all, I don’t even have painkillers at home as I rarely have any pain. All my siblings, include my mother, have hypothyroidism and other health issues (they are omnivorous and one of my sisters is pescatarian) but me (so far). I still believe I’m healthy because of the PB diet
@@whyarewestillherejusttosuffer I didn’t say animal products can cause hypothyroidism (it can be hereditary), but a healthy and balanced plant based diet (and exercise) might protect you from developing thyroid disorder www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3847753/
This was my experience too. In addition my period gradually shortened by two days! (I’m making no health claim here but it was definitely a pleasant change 😂)
This reminds me of my experience with anxiety/panic attacks. I used to have them regularly (almost every night) for 22 years. Since I went plant-based over 2 1/2 years ago, I haven’t had a panic attack. I think there’s something to that.
So precision fermentation might just unlock the healthiest option from dairy, cheese & yoghurt whilst potentially (over the years) tweaking it to become undoubtedly good for health. Great episode Simon. I do love listening to Alan.
I love that we can discuss these topics even though some of us don't consume these products. The fact is that a lot of people will keep consuming dairy even if a lot of people are moving away from it. So while a large percentage still consume dairy we need to find out how they help or damage your health for the sake of that part of thr population.
I wish you had had him answer directly to what the plant based doctors say about dairy and all of these markers, like how are they all looking at the same studies yet coming up with very different outcomes. The osteoporosis one is just polar opposite. It's ridiculous. I love that you asked about hip fracture at the end, more of that type of question...maybe even have him listen to a clip of dr greger apeaking on it or an excerpt from his book...people are getting very confused after listening to so many different opinions, my fear is that they will just give up all together because it's starting to feel like none of it matters in the end. For me, thank god for ethics.
Fascinating, thought-provoking episode. As someone who predominantly eats plant based, but still enjoys select animal products occasionally, I so appreciate (yet another) great, nuanced dive into the scientific literature. There are so many factors at play. One experiential reason I tend to avoid dairy is that it clogs up my sinuses with phlegm (sorry if TMI, but it seems like this is true for many people). To what is this phenomenon attributable? I'm curious if this is a minority experience, or if it's quite common and why it occurs (and if this means that such folks should avoid dairy / to what extent). Thanks Simon and Alan (ahem, Dr. Flanagan).
Many people say milk is mucus forming, however every time I eat peanut butter and other nut butters I get a stuffy nose and can't breathe. Milk and dairy never caused any mucus or stuffiness. I have never heard nuts being vilified to the extent milk has. Children who have nut allergies can die, but never heard of a child dying from drinking milk. About time a rational discussion backed by research rather than dogma.
Thanks for this one, Simon! Love all the episodes! I'm listening, but one of the questions I had with myself since Alan's first episode is this: are there any studies that evaluate the health impact of yogurt with saturated fat and fermentation benefits VS. Fermented food with low saturated fat? I ask that because Alan every now and then hypothesizes that the saturated fat in a fermented food such as yogurt may be not as detrimental as saturated fat in other food, e.g. red meat. However, I think that theorically there's a difference between the satured fat being less detrimental or the saturated fat being override by the benefits. I say that because in the latter case we could have an even greater positive impact if we sought fermented foods for the benefits but that are low in saturated fat. If the former case is the correct one, then there shouldn't be a difference between then and it would mean nothing to consume the saturated fat in yogurt. Thanks for the attention!
Hi Simon. Not to do with this podcast but you always say you read the comments and invite ideas for future podcasts. In your pod cast you and guests often quote animal studies (albeit with reservations) which must feel a bit uncomfortable as a vegan so I was wondering if you could get Dr Frances Cheng from the Test Subjects film on for a chat about that? She actually starts the film talking about studies involving induced obesity and heart disease which is just the sort of study you guys would chat about. Maybe not quoting animal studies is the research equivalent of not eating animal products, iI dunno but I am pretty sure it would make a good episode. Keep up the good work Simon. Working through your many podcasts on my daily commute. Thanks
Cheese is a tricky food to manage because it is so energy concentrated - mainly regarding fat! A quick search stated that the daily consumption in the US has risen to 0.75 cups/day which is equivalent to ~ 4 -6 ounces depending on the type of cheese. Cheese seems to be added to almost any recipe and the amounts I see in cooking videos are staggering. 0.75 cup/ ~4 ounces of cheddar cheese come with 22g of saturated fat vs. ~ 12g in a 4 ounce fatty pork sausage. People need to read labels and be aware of nutrition values!!! I prefer to eat plants only, keep oils very low, do not use coconut products (except in a curry) and it is very easy to keep saturated fat in take as low as 8g/per day (mainly from nuts & seeds) which makes it 3.6% of my calorie intake per day. No biggie then to treat yourself to a hearty piece of dark chocolate here and then.
Your notion about dairy being protective against cancer seems counterintuitive because it has all kinds of natural growth factors and other substances which have been demonstrated to produce inflammation - so why would this be protective?
@@TheProofWithSimonHill Other research available on the internet suggest that the net overall effect of consuming dairy is negative. I guess you think otherwise.
I would look deeper into the studies with the quality of the dairy. Would organic make a difference with all forms? Especially in the states where quality is a bit more dubious compared to Europe.
Dairy is a staple in Western Balkan, no-brainer! It's even before meat, cheese, and "kiselo mleko" (Bulgarian yogurt version). Dr. Bill Schindler is a good source of information on this topic. Then Dr. Natasha Campbell, Richard Perkins... Thank you for stepping into this area, really appreciate it!
I have an idea. Let’s have a conversation on the health impact of consuming human flesh. Now, let’s not let the ethical considerations color our conversation. I mean, the ethics of eating animal flesh are an important consideration, but can’t we just have a reasonable, calm conversation about the science of it all? After all, throughout history humans have eaten other humans, it has been an important part of culture, tradition, religion, and yes - nutrition! It was an important source of protein in Oceania. So, let’s just pause the ethics for a moment and just examine the pure health considerations of eating human flesh, unpolluted by any subjective moral objections. **** Forgive me, I am getting really tired of ethics being treated as an optional consideration, an optional side conversation, only for those few who care about doing the right thing. What is ethical should be the pre-condition to all subsequent conversations. It simply doesn’t matter if dairy is healthy or not. If it is unethically obtained- by stealing it from a raped cow - end of discussion.
would you please extend that ethical standard to ants and aphids who capture and hormone treat them to continually produce food in form ants can utilize by being fed forms that are worthless to or indigestible the ants . Human are new comer to this practice that many species , more than we can even classify yet when considering fungi .
@@heleen313 we have the ability to consider the well-being and suffering of others. Let’s not pretend we are ants in a vain attempt to absolve ourselves from the ethical responsibility to abstain from causing others unnecessary harm and suffering. Rejecting this responsibility is in effect declaring that one does not want to act ethically; it is a rejection of ethics, period. And if that’s the case, then let’s be honest about it and not pretend we are entering into a conversation about ethics.
Surely it comes down to the high nutrigenomic variability of humans? I come from a family lineage that has eaten dairy products for many centuries. We have a bunch of nonagerians and centenarians. Cancer tends to be skin and uterine. Those of us who don't eat a lot of junk foods are actually rather healthy! I don't see any way to get a nice simplistic reductionist line on any food. For example: some women get no benefit from soy because they don't produce equols. Some women (myself included) have negative consequences for eating soy. In my case, it's excruciating migraines and crippling IBS.
Dairy religiously gives me red acne like spots on my face, and gives me soft bumps on the top of my head. And I'm 60! Now, my go-to's, which is maybe 3 times a week, are fortified plant based milks only. No skin issues. I get all the calcium and D I need in my foods. The ONLY dairy I ever eat, which doesn't affect me, is Jarlsburg swiss, usually the lower fat version.
I know this was from awhile ago but it is part of my "dairy question" - 67 YO, female, trying to build muscle, lose 25# and, at the very least not let the Osteopenia get worse. It is a very daunting challenge. Even at 1200 calories a day and speedwalking 5-6 miles a day and adding resistance training, 1200 calories a day is a small amount of food to work with to hit a balance on an otherwise "mostly plant based diet". My past (albeit successful) efforts left me lower in protein and calcium than I gather is really needed and 1 glass of home made low fat kefir has been a part of the daily routine for many other reasons. Playing with the plant ferments book, and eating other fermented foods as well but kefir made from grains . From other podcasts and research, I gather that 8 oz of dairy per day may not be so bad for the planet with no other animal food. For the moment, I am not ready to do away with the kefir. Even tofu and tempeh are high enough in saturated fat that they can easily tip me over the 6% saturated fat limit. Thanks for your objectivity in all things health and nutrition related.
Good to have a sober conversation about dairy and nutrition/health. A bit missleading though, to compare dairy with fruits as food groups. Dairy differs due to different processing. Fruits differ straight off the tre they grow on.
Simon, I am very glad I found your page through Alan! Would love for you to have Dr. Trexler on from Stronger by Science and former professor at UNC at Chapel Hill(Great American University). I think you 2 would have an amazing discussion with how well spoken you are!
Cool. Me too. He mentioned in the beginning that he doesn't consume dairy either for ethical reasons, this video is for a purely nutritional discussion.
@simon What I missed is… why are mammals weened from mother milk? Isn’t that a clear sign that we are not meant to consume it as grown ups? And… if there were health benefits, wouldn’t they be greater from dairy from one’s own species?? Then why don’t we milk women (with consent) and produce human dairy? Surely that would be healthier, or even less bad for humans. And.. we can get it with consent and without causing harm to innocent animals.
@@heleen313 well, humans have been drinking milk for 10,000 years and the fact that most people are not lactose intolerant is proof of natural selection in favor of milk consumption (those capable of lactase production into adulthood had higher rates of survival) Furthermore, arguing its healthfulness or lack there of based on our not consuming it for a while historically speaking is a weak stance. The inhabitants of Europe had never eaten corn until after the columbian exchange, but that didn’t make corn unhealthy to them when they did.
I have spent most of my life being a guinea pig. I have tried every diet I have ever heard of and have stayed on them long enough to know what works for me. I am 82 years old now and literally did well on all of them. If I get the desire to have a steak, I have one. I drink milk most of the time and eat eggs when I have the desire for eggs. The one thing I eat almost every day and sometimes two to three times a day, would be legumes. Beans along with fruit, every day. I don't get sick and don't use and meds. I like to call myself a cheating Vegan.
@@sschreck08Depends if you mean vegan as a cult belief system (focused on emotions and assumptions as pertains to animals) or vegan as a logical dietary pattern (focused on nutrition).
After years being WFPB, based on this discussion, I will think about drinking home made Kefir again. It's very difficult to find another fermented food with so many kinds of good probiotics.
Hey Simon! Great episode (so far; still listening). Could you list the PMID's in the description? Would make it easier to grab them in the future for reference.
One word: Labneh. Also known as double strained yoghurt. Works beautifully with 1% Greek yoghurt. Thick, creamy, and full of protein, w/o the fat. Ditch the butter. Use Labneh.
My son gets a fever within 2 hours of eating dairy. I get an asthma attack in about the same time frame. With that said, I haven’t tried raw dairy in a long time but don’t even want to take the chance.
I'm so glad Simon asked about heart disease. I may consider non-fat yogurt, but cheese would be a big mistake for me. Even though there might be mitigating factors in cheese, I'm very sensitive to saturated fat and I already have mild arteriosclerosis. Not worth the risk.
@@doddsalfa If I had to choose just one diet plan, I think Nutritiarian is about as good as it gets. I couldn't do it 100 percent but it's a great model. "Moving towards" sounds perfect for mere mortals. :)
I’m lactose intolerant, so I can’t digest dairy. I have celiac disease (confirmed by a genetic test) and it’s not clear whether I’ve inherited the lactose intolerance from my parents or whether my small intestine has been damaged over the years from ingesting gluten and damaged my ability to produce lactase? I just know that my problems with dairy started at around 3 years of age (diarrhoea, terrible smelling breath, bloating, stomach cramps, nausea). For the minority of the population of the planet that can digest dairy I think the high levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, oestrogen and bovine growth hormones would cause me to have serious doubts about ingesting any form that dairy comes in.
Whose milk are we referring to? Just cow or any animal a human can milk ? I appreciate this truthful conversation but knowing where. my "dairy" comes from and being a mother myself, means I don't care what nutrition I might be able to extract from it, I won't ever be eating it again. My own moral compass won't allow me to pretend that I don't know where it comes from.
This was interesting as usual. The cholesterol story isn't quite clear to me though. I probably have a genetic predisposition towards problematic cholesterol levels. For now I'm dealing with that by adjusting my diet. Would the recommendation be to be fully plant based and go for the portfolio approach, or would the advice be that I do need (say) cheese and yoghurt to get my levels down?
I follow a carnivore-ish diet and my LDL is 1.1 My total cholesterol is 2.9 I eat zero fiber. I eat mostly raw animal fat, raw meat, and I drink raw milk. Also eggs.
The more I listen to health advice the more I realise we need to actually listen to our bodies and see what agrees with us what doesn't. If eating meat makes you amazing eat meat if it doesn't then don't. When I went vegetarian I felt like shit I was so tired and I was having heart palpitations. That's only after 4 months of it. So for me I can't actually do that. I get anxiety after eating bread with gluten in it. So I can't eat that. To many carbs makes me fat. But someone else may be fine doing all those thing. So yeah listen to your body. Actually listen though.
Dairy definitely contributes to acne. I was consuming vegan whey protein and it made my skin break out for the first time in years. That's fairly consistent with the research evidence that acne mostly only happens in western countries that consume dairy.
Really interesting, hasn't changed my pov against dairy either but fascinating to hear the science, even though as usual the moral argument is acknowledged but dismissed. I'm also a bit fed up with white western male scientists unable to just utter the three words "I don't know" instead of several wooly sentences. I think science is at it's most robust when it can defend itself (amicably) with veracity and verification. Not like the messy Rogan arguments after The Gamechangers. To that end I'd be really interested to see a more debating structure to some episodes. Great content thank you 👍
Interesting video. Really good thank you Simon and Alan. Besides calories, milk is loaded with allergy- and autoimmune disease-causing proteins, poisonous environmental chemicals, artery-clogging saturated fats and cholesterol, precocious puberty causing hormones, and infectious agents, such as leukemia viruses, mad cow prions, and listeria bacteria. So despite some benefits. I STILL do not see the overall benefits. There are studies that make clear links to ovarian and prostate cancer and that should put us off enough. So yes it is a misunderstood food group. It has some great benefits but I think the cons way out some of those pros. But thank you both. P.S. I find it fascinating that some dairy products are best avoided and others deemed ok. What the hell do we do with the stuff economically that need to get ditched! More enviromental considerations. P.P.S. We still forget that for millions of years we developed without calf baby milk (produced for baby calves lets be very very honest we are knicking it which is crazy) so it is a new mechanism to get to nutrition. If we can get the same nutrients from plants then there is no need for it. It's consumption is wrapped in tradition, culture and indoctrination by various industries and as lovely as Alan is and I am definitely a follower of him now, he is indocrinated to consume it rather than get health benefits from plants.
Simon, maybe you should reveal which ads you are promoting on your channel. I presume you don’t want to promote dairy products. Muller drink just played in one of the ads, with cow mooing when the guy opens the bottle. Not funny
Solid episode overall but as a vegan of course this episode kinda got to me. First off I’m an avid listener of PCRMs “the exam room” podcast and not once I don’t think a single doctor or dietitian on the show (including Dr Barnard) has ever fear mongered and claimed that eating any amount of any animal product will kill you. Instead they too, discuss studies and talk about increased RISKS. Not direct causes. There was the bit here about the link to prostate cancer being unclear.. IMO what PCRM does is cut out the bullshit and say even if there’s an increased risk, there’s no reason to consume it at all. Especially knowing animals provide nothing that plants can’t, the question of health is irrelevant. It should be a clear answer. It’s even more irrelevant if you claim to be an ethical vegan because those cows being forcibly impregnated do not care about the health effects. The baby calf being taken away from the mother doesn’t give two shits about low fat or high fat dairy. By discussing or rather “defending” the health effects of dairy is only going to reinforce certain people to buy it and perpetuate the system. That’s why trying to just discuss the science with something like dairy is difficult. Don’t get me wrong I’m also an avid listener of this show and even sigma nutrition. I do think sadly that with the whole “proof” transition, Simon has lost confidence in what he believed in and rather conformed to the likes of Alan Flanagan, the sigma team, etc. Instead we should be pushing more for the rise of plant milks, the more demand the more they will formulate more plant milks with protien, calcium, etc, to hopefully make dairy completely obsolete. It’s the hormonal birthmilk of another species we’re debating here people.. nobody needs it.
@@TheProofWithSimonHill PCRM has mentioned the dairy and colon cancer topic. Again they cut the bullshit and say The science seems to show it’s from calcium, not exclusively dairy. Their take would be to point us in the direction of other calcium sources, which there are. Again making the argument irrelevant because this isn’t something we can’t get from plants. In terms of “limited evidence” it seems like people use that to say well don’t fully trust the claim but then take a vegan claim and I always hear ah don’t trust that, there isn’t enough evidence. As if there’s some evidence cherry picking going on. But either way, calcium can be found in plants along with fiber which is also beneficial for cancer and is not found in any animal products, that being in mind again, debating the health aspects or cancer effects of dairy becomes pretty irrelevant. I absolutely get trying to come from a non-biased POV but I just think in the bigger picture it’s not helping anyone or being progressive
Science on nutrition is so confusing.. I found that study "Milk and dairy products: good or bad for human health? An assessment of the totality of scientific evidence" and when you have a look at conflicts of interest and funding section you see this : "Anne Raben is recipient of research funding from the Dairy Research Institute, Rosemont, IL, USA and the Danish Agriculture & Food Council.Tine Tholstrup is recipient of research grants from the Danish Dairy Research Foundation and the Dairy Research Institute, Rosemont, IL. " and so on.. To me it looks like the dairy industry has some infuence but maybe I misunderstood. On the other hand you have this study : "Dairy products, calcium, and prostate cancer risk: a systematic review and meta-analysis of cohort studies" or this one "Dairy products intake and cancer mortality risk: a meta-analysis of 11 population-based cohort studies" that says the opposite adressing the colorectal cancer subject. I'm lost 😅
@@TheProofWithSimonHill Without industry funding, research would have the breathing space to not weight the studies to support skewed/industry favorable results. Get with the program, wake up, yoo hoo! Simon, please look deeper.
And with this comment of yours am unsubscribing. I do hope you and those you interview rise above the big funders (ubiquitous, I know), and create and maintain high integrity on your channel. Please don’t attempt to “please all parties”. (As a 63yrs omnivore I can say for sure that dairy can be great for those in high health - but is def inflammatory for more than those who are casein sensitive/lactose intolerant. Not a good thing for, for example, typical autoimmune inflammation of the arteries. Fact.)
@@TheProofWithSimonHill Yes but do you think we can trust those ? I'm not convinced as they are economic issues in the line. For now I'm still convinced that plant based is the best way to go, even if some industry founded studies says that we could benefit from dairy or eggs etc. Thank you for your respond and to be open minded, always looking for answers, I'm myself is in that journey and your podcast help a lot ✌
@@SPUF83 to chip in, if yo utake any food that can be sold you will find industry studies on it. With that, what would you end up consuming? There are fishy things happening in the food industry but as far as I know, it's mostly about pushing the benefits of 'sponsored' food or exagerating it, which tends to happen with processed foods. Being skeptical is nice, but to what degree?
Most people need more essential amino acids found in dairy if they want to avoid frailty in their elder years, and fermented dairy products like yogurt, kefir, cheese, and buttermilk are great for the gut microbiome.
This is a complex talk, and you lost me several times! Overall, I seem to understand that certain kinds of dairy may be a good food for the average person because of the nutrition profile. May I be wrong if I infer that because I'm a nutrition nerd, it doesn't apply to me really, because I happen to have a well balanced nutrition on solely whole plant foods? Dairy compared to whole plant foods seems to lose the battle.
Dairy was a survival food in really hard times past. ,--- Milk , cheese , yogurt ,ghee and butter. A cow was the intermediary in converting plentiful grass to a stable supply of food during those hard times. Should hard times again raise its ugly head I have already decided to get myself a milking cow for its milk or some milking goats for both the milk and meat. Purely for survival. .
When you have thousands of chemicals in the food and hundreds of different names in our foods for sugar, why pick on a natural product? Leave the cow alone.
Leave the cow alone is a bit of an oxymoron - you do know what happens to billions and billions of natural cows for dairy or meat annually in an extremely unnatural mass industrial scale - extrapolate that across decades. Also pasteurisation changes the natural product to unnatural as it’s been defined as it strips out loads of good stuff. Unless you live on a farm and milk is reared naturally and drank naturally but for 98% that’s a romantic notion that doesn’t hold up for the majority. Leave The cow alone is the premise.
@@mrmolloy The cow isn't to blame for what mad man does to her milk. I know what pasteurisation does. I was around when little birds used to break into the tops of bottles and steal the cream off the tops of the milk. Yes, they did actually do that. Blue tits drank the cream off the milk. But as far as what's happening to cows and other animals today, the worst of it is being caused by the religious nutters that are crazed on the farming of corn, wheat, soy, grains for oils, and all the other junk that the cattle have been removed from the land for. Industry are doing all the damage for the money and veganism is taking over like crazy. The cattle are suffering for it. They belong on the land. We're killing the soil. We've been killing the soil since the second world war and Vietnam is a real eye opener with babies still being born mangled and maimed from Agent Orange. These pesticides and herbicides are going to wipe us out unless we put a stop to them. Autism is just one problem I put down to them.
They keep using blue zone populations and there longevity thru there diet without considering those areas have a totally different culture and a way of life way more active and there foods are grown different then the ones in the west look deeper.
You and Dr Gill (of Nutrition made Simple) deserve a high level of admiration for your objectivity. Despite my respect for many WFPB practitioners, you two are fast becoming my go-to spokespeople for truth and clarity about nutrition. I think I speak for others who consume a largely plant based diet, but are open to eating very small amounts of select animal products, that this site feels like home. Thank you for these educational videos and for your tolerance and kindness.
Yes. Agreed.
@@happyhealthylife4ever elaborate?
@@happyhealthylife4everSorry what do you mean by BS? As I have not noticed any of this kind
I could not agree more.
Physionic is best
Good discussion, including of our RCT. Alan has certainly done his homework; he did a very nice job summarizing the very extensive literature. And I enjoy the calm inquisive way you are guiding these discussions, Simon. Good contrubution!
@@happyhealthylife4everSounds like someone's coping. As he explained, there is much more nuance than that.
@@happyhealthylife4ever Does this question 'YOU wanted to answer' have to be black and white? Could the question not just be 'can dairy be part of a diet for an optimal health?' and thus remove personal bias's and leave door open for personal preferences and diversity?
The more I learn, the less I seem to know. Frustrating.
Same feeling here, soymilk is the worst thing and butter is the best Ive heard repeatedly the last years now Im back to square one😂
Science can be a manipulated experiment for the desired outcome for the matrix
Even though i personally choose to omit dairy in my daily diet, i do appreciate that you had the guts to go "against" the PCRM fear mongering. I know you are plant based/vegan, which is why i appreciate it even more... Ethics should not muddy the waters of science. in fact, ethics has nothing to do with science, so they can't and shouldn't mix.
Clairty, honesty, science... in the end nobody likes being lied to, or being scared into a certain way of living. if you choose to be plant exclusive, or vegan for ethics, or a mix of the two: you want the choice to be fuelled by positivity and FACTS. The PCRM thing has always bothered me... i actually feel like it is detrimental in helping people going plant based for the long term, because the foundation on which these life choices are being made are fear based, which, if you think about it, could cause people to move to a different lifestyle/diet based on fear more easily... which is what we've seen happening over and over with "ex vegans" going full carnivore. This carnivore switch is far from scientific, and actually all fear driven...
My thoughts are that lying about dairy like how PCRM does (or heavily cherry picking) is not much different from some of the carnivore/keto lies people spread online. It is not scientific and fear based.
I am sorry you feel that way about PCRM. I don't get that from them. I wonder if PCRM ideas or whole food plant based eating threatens people's cultures or ideas about health and makes them feel ashamed about eating a certain way. I think in reporting all nutrition information people should also understand quantities of measure. For example nearly all of our water supply in the United States has carcinogens in it and people will develop leukemia from our water supply but its a very small number. More people would die not drinking water than those developing leukemia so I would not tell you to stop drinking water. Another point is there are well known health benefits to exercise and the more the better, but I would not shame someone for not working out only encourage them to work out more something most of us could likely improve upon.
Many thanks for your consistent attempts at getting objective evidence in these various discussions. We heard about how casein was a 'cancer switch' a decade or so ago, from "China Study". Some of these tenets along with "oil is total junk food" and similar now seem to be in some doubt. Regarding bone health, I am interested in you comparing and possibly contrasting resistance type exercises (leg presses etc.) with impulsive type exercises (power walking, jogging etc.).
Oil is bad. All the pro oil studies compare it with nuts and seeds or animal fat
Good discussion. I always appreciate the adherence to objectivity on these shows. I keep my eating pretty plant-forward, but have always made room for small amounts of low fat cheese. I understand the ethical considerations for avoiding it, but health-wise I've never felt it was a huge negative for me. My lipids have been stable for years, and I've never had any skin issues from it. A little feta on a salad or hummus wrap goes a long way for enhancing the flavor, for me anyways.
Dairy Intake and Parkinson's Disease: A Mendelian Randomization Study - January 2022 in Movement Disorders
Using MR, our findings provide further support for a causal relationship between dairy intake and higher PD risk, not biased by confounding or reverse causation. Further studies are needed to elucidate the underlying mechanisms.
Apparently you didn't deal with the negative effects of igf-1 factor when consuming dairy. Is that a concern?
Thank you so much for this ! Love the content and topics discussed on this channel.
I don’t have any known allergy or intolerance, but when I became vegan, my period flow decreased and I stopped having cramps. I thought this could be due to not consuming hormones from dairy, eggs and meat, but I understand correlation is not causation.
12 years vegan now, and eating tofu daily - nearly all my PMS have disappeared, with exception of some tiredness in the first 2 days. I also have no headaches at all, I don’t even have painkillers at home as I rarely have any pain.
All my siblings, include my mother, have hypothyroidism and other health issues (they are omnivorous and one of my sisters is pescatarian) but me (so far).
I still believe I’m healthy because of the PB diet
@@TheProofWithSimonHill Thanks. Love your show 🧡. Gratitude 🙏
Hyphotiroidism is not caused because People eat meat,dairy and eggs
@@whyarewestillherejusttosuffer I didn’t say animal products can cause hypothyroidism (it can be hereditary), but a healthy and balanced plant based diet (and exercise) might protect you from developing thyroid disorder
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3847753/
This was my experience too. In addition my period gradually shortened by two days! (I’m making no health claim here but it was definitely a pleasant change 😂)
This reminds me of my experience with anxiety/panic attacks. I used to have them regularly (almost every night) for 22 years. Since I went plant-based over 2 1/2 years ago, I haven’t had a panic attack. I think there’s something to that.
Always enjoy and learn a lot from listening to you both (Dr Alan's emails are also a win!).
So precision fermentation might just unlock the healthiest option from dairy, cheese & yoghurt whilst potentially (over the years) tweaking it to become undoubtedly good for health.
Great episode Simon. I do love listening to Alan.
What about Dr. Esselstyn’s claim that any oil damages the endothelium?
I love that we can discuss these topics even though some of us don't consume these products. The fact is that a lot of people will keep consuming dairy even if a lot of people are moving away from it. So while a large percentage still consume dairy we need to find out how they help or damage your health for the sake of that part of thr population.
I wish you had had him answer directly to what the plant based doctors say about dairy and all of these markers, like how are they all looking at the same studies yet coming up with very different outcomes. The osteoporosis one is just polar opposite. It's ridiculous. I love that you asked about hip fracture at the end, more of that type of question...maybe even have him listen to a clip of dr greger apeaking on it or an excerpt from his book...people are getting very confused after listening to so many different opinions, my fear is that they will just give up all together because it's starting to feel like none of it matters in the end. For me, thank god for ethics.
The conversation around the 50:00 mark is exactly why I’ve stuck around since the early teens episodes. You’re doing a great job in this area
Fascinating, thought-provoking episode. As someone who predominantly eats plant based, but still enjoys select animal products occasionally, I so appreciate (yet another) great, nuanced dive into the scientific literature. There are so many factors at play. One experiential reason I tend to avoid dairy is that it clogs up my sinuses with phlegm (sorry if TMI, but it seems like this is true for many people). To what is this phenomenon attributable? I'm curious if this is a minority experience, or if it's quite common and why it occurs (and if this means that such folks should avoid dairy / to what extent).
Thanks Simon and Alan (ahem, Dr. Flanagan).
@@TheProofWithSimonHill That would be fantastic, Simon! I imagine others would appreciate that, too.
Many people say milk is mucus forming, however every time I eat peanut butter and other nut butters I get a stuffy nose and can't breathe. Milk and dairy never caused any mucus or stuffiness. I have never heard nuts being vilified to the extent milk has. Children who have nut allergies can die, but never heard of a child dying from drinking milk.
About time a rational discussion backed by research rather than dogma.
Thanks for this one, Simon! Love all the episodes! I'm listening, but one of the questions I had with myself since Alan's first episode is this: are there any studies that evaluate the health impact of yogurt with saturated fat and fermentation benefits VS. Fermented food with low saturated fat?
I ask that because Alan every now and then hypothesizes that the saturated fat in a fermented food such as yogurt may be not as detrimental as saturated fat in other food, e.g. red meat. However, I think that theorically there's a difference between the satured fat being less detrimental or the saturated fat being override by the benefits. I say that because in the latter case we could have an even greater positive impact if we sought fermented foods for the benefits but that are low in saturated fat. If the former case is the correct one, then there shouldn't be a difference between then and it would mean nothing to consume the saturated fat in yogurt.
Thanks for the attention!
@@TheProofWithSimonHill I guess that's coherent!
Very interesting and information. A big thank you to your host. Many thanks for this Simon.
Hi Simon. Not to do with this podcast but you always say you read the comments and invite ideas for future podcasts. In your pod cast you and guests often quote animal studies (albeit with reservations) which must feel a bit uncomfortable as a vegan so I was wondering if you could get Dr Frances Cheng from the Test Subjects film on for a chat about that? She actually starts the film talking about studies involving induced obesity and heart disease which is just the sort of study you guys would chat about. Maybe not quoting animal studies is the research equivalent of not eating animal products, iI dunno but I am pretty sure it would make a good episode. Keep up the good work Simon. Working through your many podcasts on my daily commute. Thanks
Cheese is a tricky food to manage because it is so energy concentrated - mainly regarding fat! A quick search stated that the daily consumption in the US has risen to 0.75 cups/day which is equivalent to ~ 4 -6 ounces depending on the type of cheese. Cheese seems to be added to almost any recipe and the amounts I see in cooking videos are staggering.
0.75 cup/ ~4 ounces of cheddar cheese come with 22g of saturated fat vs. ~ 12g in a 4 ounce fatty pork sausage. People need to read labels and be aware of nutrition values!!!
I prefer to eat plants only, keep oils very low, do not use coconut products (except in a curry) and it is very easy to keep saturated fat in take as low as 8g/per day (mainly from nuts & seeds) which makes it 3.6% of my calorie intake per day. No biggie then to treat yourself to a hearty piece of dark chocolate here and then.
Take a shot every time someone says "granular"
shot of what?
Your notion about dairy being protective against cancer seems counterintuitive because it has all kinds of natural growth factors and other substances which have been demonstrated to produce inflammation - so why would this be protective?
@@TheProofWithSimonHill Other research available on the internet suggest that the net overall effect of consuming dairy is negative. I guess you think otherwise.
Ireland's dairy industry is a major part of its economy, contributing €16 billion in economic value and about 85,000 jobs.
I would look deeper into the studies with the quality of the dairy. Would organic make a difference with all forms? Especially in the states where quality is a bit more dubious compared to Europe.
Dairy is a staple in Western Balkan, no-brainer! It's even before meat, cheese, and "kiselo mleko" (Bulgarian yogurt version). Dr. Bill Schindler is a good source of information on this topic. Then Dr. Natasha Campbell, Richard Perkins...
Thank you for stepping into this area, really appreciate it!
I have an idea. Let’s have a conversation on the health impact of consuming human flesh. Now, let’s not let the ethical considerations color our conversation. I mean, the ethics of eating animal flesh are an important consideration, but can’t we just have a reasonable, calm conversation about the science of it all? After all, throughout history humans have eaten other humans, it has been an important part of culture, tradition, religion, and yes - nutrition! It was an important source of protein in Oceania.
So, let’s just pause the ethics for a moment and just examine the pure health considerations of eating human flesh, unpolluted by any subjective moral objections.
****
Forgive me, I am getting really tired of ethics being treated as an optional consideration, an optional side conversation, only for those few who care about doing the right thing. What is ethical should be the pre-condition to all subsequent conversations. It simply doesn’t matter if dairy is healthy or not. If it is unethically obtained- by stealing it from a raped cow - end of discussion.
would you please extend that ethical standard to ants and aphids who capture and hormone treat them to continually produce food in form ants can utilize by being fed forms that are worthless to or indigestible the ants . Human are new comer to this practice that many species , more than we can even classify yet when considering fungi .
I agree!
Edit: to be clear, I agree with @arambarsamian6312
@@rogersmit4193 as soon as animals become moral agents and we know how to talk to them… let me know, then we’ll have a good talk with them 😏
@@heleen313 we have the ability to consider the well-being and suffering of others. Let’s not pretend we are ants in a vain attempt to absolve ourselves from the ethical responsibility to abstain from causing others unnecessary harm and suffering. Rejecting this responsibility is in effect declaring that one does not want to act ethically; it is a rejection of ethics, period. And if that’s the case, then let’s be honest about it and not pretend we are entering into a conversation about ethics.
@@arambarsamian6312 I think you’re responding to the comment of rogersmit4193 not mine? Right? As I agree with you!
I learned new information. Thank you. Not just the same conversations... Appreciate that.
Surely it comes down to the high nutrigenomic variability of humans?
I come from a family lineage that has eaten dairy products for many centuries. We have a bunch of nonagerians and centenarians. Cancer tends to be skin and uterine. Those of us who don't eat a lot of junk foods are actually rather healthy!
I don't see any way to get a nice simplistic reductionist line on any food.
For example: some women get no benefit from soy because they don't produce equols. Some women (myself included) have negative consequences for
eating soy. In my case, it's excruciating migraines and crippling IBS.
I think dairy can be a helpful contribution to someones diet because it is a good complete protein source and is very good for dental health.
Dairy religiously gives me red acne like spots on my face, and gives me soft bumps on the top of my head. And I'm 60! Now, my go-to's, which is maybe 3 times a week, are fortified plant based milks only. No skin issues. I get all the calcium and D I need in my foods. The ONLY dairy I ever eat, which doesn't affect me, is Jarlsburg swiss, usually the lower fat version.
I know this was from awhile ago but it is part of my "dairy question" - 67 YO, female, trying to build muscle, lose 25# and, at the very least not let the Osteopenia get worse. It is a very daunting challenge. Even at 1200 calories a day and speedwalking 5-6 miles a day and adding resistance training, 1200 calories a day is a small amount of food to work with to hit a balance on an otherwise "mostly plant based diet". My past (albeit successful) efforts left me lower in protein and calcium than I gather is really needed and 1 glass of home made low fat kefir has been a part of the daily routine for many other reasons. Playing with the plant ferments book, and eating other fermented foods as well but kefir made from grains . From other podcasts and research, I gather that 8 oz of dairy per day may not be so bad for the planet with no other animal food. For the moment, I am not ready to do away with the kefir. Even tofu and tempeh are high enough in saturated fat that they can easily tip me over the 6% saturated fat limit.
Thanks for your objectivity in all things health and nutrition related.
1200 calories is much too few. Your body thinks you’re starving it, and will hold onto the weight.
Good to have a sober conversation about dairy and nutrition/health. A bit missleading though, to compare dairy with fruits as food groups. Dairy differs due to different processing. Fruits differ straight off the tre they grow on.
What about 100% grassfed raw milk fermented with kefir grains?
That's like asking what about cigarettes with a filter on them. Less unhealthy, but still unhealthy. 🙂
Simon, I am very glad I found your page through Alan! Would love for you to have Dr. Trexler on from Stronger by Science and former professor at UNC at Chapel Hill(Great American University). I think you 2 would have an amazing discussion with how well spoken you are!
Good episode!
BUT 2 hrs of talk around dairy and (almost) No words about lactose intolerance!? Would it be a separate theme sometimes later I hope?
I stopped consuming dairy and animals for ethical reasons. I don't believe animals should be abused for my benefit.
Cool. Me too. He mentioned in the beginning that he doesn't consume dairy either for ethical reasons, this video is for a purely nutritional discussion.
@simon What I missed is… why are mammals weened from mother milk? Isn’t that a clear sign that we are not meant to consume it as grown ups? And… if there were health benefits, wouldn’t they be greater from dairy from one’s own species?? Then why don’t we milk women (with consent) and produce human dairy? Surely that would be healthier, or even less bad for humans. And.. we can get it with consent and without causing harm to innocent animals.
@@heleen313 well, humans have been drinking milk for 10,000 years and the fact that most people are not lactose intolerant is proof of natural selection in favor of milk consumption (those capable of lactase production into adulthood had higher rates of survival)
Furthermore, arguing its healthfulness or lack there of based on our not consuming it for a while historically speaking is a weak stance. The inhabitants of Europe had never eaten corn until after the columbian exchange, but that didn’t make corn unhealthy to them when they did.
I'm plant based but still consume dairy. The benefits for me out weigh and cons.
Well I do better on full fat goat milk, but have trouble with yoghurt which is a fermented dairy product. So everyone's different.
I have spent most of my life being a guinea pig. I have tried every diet I have ever heard of and have stayed on them long enough to know what works for me. I am 82 years old now and literally did well on all of them. If I get the desire to have a steak, I have one. I drink milk most of the time and eat eggs when I have the desire for eggs. The one thing I eat almost every day and sometimes two to three times a day, would be legumes. Beans along with fruit, every day. I don't get sick and don't use and meds. I like to call myself a cheating Vegan.
What about vegetables?
@@privtprofile24 When I feel like it.
You're definitely not any kind of a vegan.
@@sschreck08 Only when I eat like a vegan. Usually on Sunday.
@@sschreck08Depends if you mean vegan as a cult belief system (focused on emotions and assumptions as pertains to animals) or vegan as a logical dietary pattern (focused on nutrition).
After years being WFPB, based on this discussion, I will think about drinking home made Kefir again. It's very difficult to find another fermented food with so many kinds of good probiotics.
Water kefir. Completely vegan, no dairy. More or less the same benefits.
Hey Simon! Great episode (so far; still listening). Could you list the PMID's in the description? Would make it easier to grab them in the future for reference.
Oh nevermind; they're on the website!
One word: Labneh. Also known as double strained yoghurt. Works beautifully with 1% Greek yoghurt. Thick, creamy, and full of protein, w/o the fat. Ditch the butter. Use Labneh.
My son gets a fever within 2 hours of eating dairy. I get an asthma attack in about the same time frame. With that said, I haven’t tried raw dairy in a long time but don’t even want to take the chance.
Really enjoyed and very well delivered
I'm so glad Simon asked about heart disease. I may consider non-fat yogurt, but cheese would be a big mistake for me. Even though there might be mitigating factors in cheese, I'm very sensitive to saturated fat and I already have mild arteriosclerosis. Not worth the risk.
You might want to check out plant based and especially dr.Esselstyn
@@doddsalfa Thanks, I have. I listen to all the wfpb gurus. I'm particularly fond of Dr Fuhrman. I'd say I'm 80-90 percent wfpb.
@@sectionalsofa great .dr.Fuhrman is my favorite,I’m moving towards his nutriterian diet
@@doddsalfa If I had to choose just one diet plan, I think Nutritiarian is about as good as it gets. I couldn't do it 100 percent but it's a great model. "Moving towards" sounds perfect for mere mortals. :)
@@sectionalsofa totally agree
I’m lactose intolerant, so I can’t digest dairy. I have celiac disease (confirmed by a genetic test) and it’s not clear whether I’ve inherited the lactose intolerance from my parents or whether my small intestine has been damaged over the years from ingesting gluten and damaged my ability to produce lactase? I just know that my problems with dairy started at around 3 years of age (diarrhoea, terrible smelling breath, bloating, stomach cramps, nausea). For the minority of the population of the planet that can digest dairy I think the high levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, oestrogen and bovine growth hormones would cause me to have serious doubts about ingesting any form that dairy comes in.
Whose milk are we referring to? Just cow or any animal a human can milk ? I appreciate this truthful conversation but knowing where. my "dairy" comes from and being a mother myself, means I don't care what nutrition I might be able to extract from it, I won't ever be eating it again. My own moral compass won't allow me to pretend that I don't know where it comes from.
Is a calcium supplement enough if you are not getting enough in your diet?
Learnt a lot.. thanks 🙏👍
Do you think pasteurised dairy proteins are a trigger for autoimmune type 1 and LADA diabetes?
This was interesting as usual. The cholesterol story isn't quite clear to me though. I probably have a genetic predisposition towards problematic cholesterol levels. For now I'm dealing with that by adjusting my diet. Would the recommendation be to be fully plant based and go for the portfolio approach, or would the advice be that I do need (say) cheese and yoghurt to get my levels down?
I follow a carnivore-ish diet and my LDL is 1.1
My total cholesterol is 2.9
I eat zero fiber. I eat mostly raw animal fat, raw meat, and I drink raw milk. Also eggs.
Well balanced talk on Dairy. 👏
This is such a great ep
The more I listen to health advice the more I realise we need to actually listen to our bodies and see what agrees with us what doesn't. If eating meat makes you amazing eat meat if it doesn't then don't. When I went vegetarian I felt like shit I was so tired and I was having heart palpitations. That's only after 4 months of it. So for me I can't actually do that. I get anxiety after eating bread with gluten in it. So I can't eat that. To many carbs makes me fat. But someone else may be fine doing all those thing. So yeah listen to your body. Actually listen though.
Excelence.... great podcast. 🙂
Dairy definitely contributes to acne. I was consuming vegan whey protein and it made my skin break out for the first time in years. That's fairly consistent with the research evidence that acne mostly only happens in western countries that consume dairy.
Really interesting, hasn't changed my pov against dairy either but fascinating to hear the science, even though as usual the moral argument is acknowledged but dismissed. I'm also a bit fed up with white western male scientists unable to just utter the three words "I don't know" instead of several wooly sentences. I think science is at it's most robust when it can defend itself (amicably) with veracity and verification. Not like the messy Rogan arguments after The Gamechangers. To that end I'd be really interested to see a more debating structure to some episodes. Great content thank you 👍
Interesting video. Really good thank you Simon and Alan.
Besides calories, milk is loaded with allergy- and autoimmune disease-causing proteins, poisonous environmental chemicals, artery-clogging saturated fats and cholesterol, precocious puberty causing hormones, and infectious agents, such as leukemia viruses, mad cow prions, and listeria bacteria.
So despite some benefits. I STILL do not see the overall benefits. There are studies that make clear links to ovarian and prostate cancer and that should put us off enough.
So yes it is a misunderstood food group. It has some great benefits but I think the cons way out some of those pros.
But thank you both.
P.S. I find it fascinating that some dairy products are best avoided and others deemed ok. What the hell do we do with the stuff economically that need to get ditched! More enviromental considerations.
P.P.S. We still forget that for millions of years we developed without calf baby milk (produced for baby calves lets be very very honest we are knicking it which is crazy) so it is a new mechanism to get to nutrition. If we can get the same nutrients from plants then there is no need for it. It's consumption is wrapped in tradition, culture and indoctrination by various industries and as lovely as Alan is and I am definitely a follower of him now, he is indocrinated to consume it rather than get health benefits from plants.
Frustrating that the UK doesn’t have a soy milk that contains calcium carbonate and iodine fortification without added sugar
what is "pure" at 58 min?
@@TheProofWithSimonHill oh, right, thanks.
Simon, maybe you should reveal which ads you are promoting on your channel. I presume you don’t want to promote dairy products. Muller drink just played in one of the ads, with cow mooing when the guy opens the bottle. Not funny
@@TheProofWithSimonHill Yes, the ad was promoted on this video
It’s certainly not good for the animals. That’s enough information for me.
Ice scream, You Scream. We all Scream for ice cream! Oh to be young again and enjoy dairy without worry. 🙏🏻👹🏊♀️🏋🏻
20:23 host make a good question and then continue talking and changing topic. Is all the time in almost all interview. So goobye..
Solid episode overall but as a vegan of course this episode kinda got to me.
First off I’m an avid listener of PCRMs “the exam room” podcast and not once I don’t think a single doctor or dietitian on the show (including Dr Barnard) has ever fear mongered and claimed that eating any amount of any animal product will kill you. Instead they too, discuss studies and talk about increased RISKS. Not direct causes.
There was the bit here about the link to prostate cancer being unclear.. IMO what PCRM does is cut out the bullshit and say even if there’s an increased risk, there’s no reason to consume it at all. Especially knowing animals provide nothing that plants can’t, the question of health is irrelevant. It should be a clear answer.
It’s even more irrelevant if you claim to be an ethical vegan because those cows being forcibly impregnated do not care about the health effects. The baby calf being taken away from the mother doesn’t give two shits about low fat or high fat dairy.
By discussing or rather “defending” the health effects of dairy is only going to reinforce certain people to buy it and perpetuate the system. That’s why trying to just discuss the science with something like dairy is difficult.
Don’t get me wrong I’m also an avid listener of this show and even sigma nutrition. I do think sadly that with the whole “proof” transition, Simon has lost confidence in what he believed in and rather conformed to the likes of Alan Flanagan, the sigma team, etc.
Instead we should be pushing more for the rise of plant milks, the more demand the more they will formulate more plant milks with protien, calcium, etc, to hopefully make dairy completely obsolete.
It’s the hormonal birthmilk of another species we’re debating here people.. nobody needs it.
@@TheProofWithSimonHill PCRM has mentioned the dairy and colon cancer topic. Again they cut the bullshit and say The science seems to show it’s from calcium, not exclusively dairy. Their take would be to point us in the direction of other calcium sources, which there are. Again making the argument irrelevant because this isn’t something we can’t get from plants.
In terms of “limited evidence” it seems like people use that to say well don’t fully trust the claim but then take a vegan claim and I always hear ah don’t trust that, there isn’t enough evidence. As if there’s some evidence cherry picking going on.
But either way, calcium can be found in plants along with fiber which is also beneficial for cancer and is not found in any animal products, that being in mind again, debating the health aspects or cancer effects of dairy becomes pretty irrelevant. I absolutely get trying to come from a non-biased POV but I just think in the bigger picture it’s not helping anyone or being progressive
I'm with you. I cannot warrant the abuse of animals for my eating or drinking enjoyment. I find it heartbreaking that people refer to animals as food.
You talk of the diversity of dairy, but you confine yourself to bovine milk - what about goat, camel, horse and even human milk?
I feel like this episode could have taken 20 minutes if they spoke at a normal speed.
Science on nutrition is so confusing.. I found that study "Milk and dairy products: good or bad for human health? An assessment of the totality of scientific evidence" and when you have a look at conflicts of interest and funding section you see this : "Anne Raben is recipient of research funding from the Dairy Research Institute, Rosemont, IL, USA and the Danish Agriculture & Food Council.Tine Tholstrup is recipient of research grants from the Danish Dairy Research Foundation and the Dairy Research Institute, Rosemont, IL. " and so on.. To me it looks like the dairy industry has some infuence but maybe I misunderstood. On the other hand you have this study : "Dairy products, calcium, and prostate cancer risk: a systematic review and meta-analysis of cohort studies" or this one "Dairy products intake and cancer mortality risk: a meta-analysis of 11 population-based cohort studies" that says the opposite adressing the colorectal cancer subject. I'm lost 😅
Just don't breastfeed as an adult. Pretty simple
@@TheProofWithSimonHill Without industry funding, research would have the breathing space to not weight the studies to support skewed/industry favorable results.
Get with the program, wake up, yoo hoo! Simon, please look deeper.
And with this comment of yours am unsubscribing. I do hope you and those you interview rise above the big funders (ubiquitous, I know), and create and maintain high integrity on your channel.
Please don’t attempt to “please all parties”.
(As a 63yrs omnivore I can say for sure that dairy can be great for those in high health - but is def inflammatory for more than those who are casein sensitive/lactose intolerant. Not a good thing for, for example, typical autoimmune inflammation of the arteries. Fact.)
@@TheProofWithSimonHill Yes but do you think we can trust those ? I'm not convinced as they are economic issues in the line. For now I'm still convinced that plant based is the best way to go, even if some industry founded studies says that we could benefit from dairy or eggs etc. Thank you for your respond and to be open minded, always looking for answers, I'm myself is in that journey and your podcast help a lot ✌
@@SPUF83 to chip in, if yo utake any food that can be sold you will find industry studies on it. With that, what would you end up consuming? There are fishy things happening in the food industry but as far as I know, it's mostly about pushing the benefits of 'sponsored' food or exagerating it, which tends to happen with processed foods. Being skeptical is nice, but to what degree?
W
Most people need more essential amino acids found in dairy if they want to avoid frailty in their elder years, and fermented dairy products like yogurt, kefir, cheese, and buttermilk are great for the gut microbiome.
Source?
This is a complex talk, and you lost me several times! Overall, I seem to understand that certain kinds of dairy may be a good food for the average person because of the nutrition profile. May I be wrong if I infer that because I'm a nutrition nerd, it doesn't apply to me really, because I happen to have a well balanced nutrition on solely whole plant foods? Dairy compared to whole plant foods seems to lose the battle.
Fairlife Milk, more protein, less carbs?🙏🏻👹🏋🏻
🍀🍀🍀
Dairy was a survival food in really hard times past.
,--- Milk , cheese , yogurt ,ghee and butter.
A cow was the intermediary in converting plentiful grass to a stable supply of food during those hard times.
Should hard times again raise its ugly head I have already decided to get myself a milking cow for its milk or some milking goats for both the milk and meat.
Purely for survival.
.
When you have thousands of chemicals in the food and hundreds of different names in our foods for sugar, why pick on a natural product? Leave the cow alone.
Leave the cow alone is a bit of an oxymoron - you do know what happens to billions and billions of natural cows for dairy or meat annually in an extremely unnatural mass industrial scale - extrapolate that across decades. Also pasteurisation changes the natural product to unnatural as it’s been defined as it strips out loads of good stuff. Unless you live on a farm and milk is reared naturally and drank naturally but for 98% that’s a romantic notion that doesn’t hold up for the majority. Leave The cow alone is the premise.
@@mrmolloy The cow isn't to blame for what mad man does to her milk. I know what pasteurisation does. I was around when little birds used to break into the tops of bottles and steal the cream off the tops of the milk. Yes, they did actually do that. Blue tits drank the cream off the milk.
But as far as what's happening to cows and other animals today, the worst of it is being caused by the religious nutters that are crazed on the farming of corn, wheat, soy, grains for oils, and all the other junk that the cattle have been removed from the land for.
Industry are doing all the damage for the money and veganism is taking over like crazy. The cattle are suffering for it. They belong on the land.
We're killing the soil.
We've been killing the soil since the second world war and Vietnam is a real eye opener with babies still being born mangled and maimed from Agent Orange.
These pesticides and herbicides are going to wipe us out unless we put a stop to them. Autism is just one problem I put down to them.
They keep using blue zone populations and there longevity thru there diet without considering those areas have a totally different culture and a way of life way more active and there foods are grown different then the ones in the west look deeper.