“Disillusioned” Author: American Suburbs Have Become a Ponzi Scheme | Amanpour and Company
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- Опубліковано 13 тра 2024
- Once the quintessential image of the American dream, suburban neighborhoods now reveal a systemic racial disparity, with new Black and Brown residents struggling to deal with the declining conditions left by white occupants who have moved on and up. In his new book "Disillusioned," education reporter Benjamin Herold looks at five suburbs across the country. He speaks with Michel Martin about what families are experiencing in these communities.
Originally aired on February 13, 2024
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Amanpour and Company features wide-ranging, in-depth conversations with global thought leaders and cultural influencers on the issues and trends impacting the world each day, from politics, business and technology to arts, science and sports. Christiane Amanpour leads the conversation on global and domestic news from London with contributions by prominent journalists Walter Isaacson, Michel Martin, Alicia Menendez and Hari Sreenivasan from the Tisch WNET Studios at Lincoln Center in New York City.
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A big component was missed here: most suburbs are financed by one-time initial development fees and state/fed incentives. Property/sales taxes are not enough to run the town. Once you stop new developments (you’re now an “older” suburban town) that money stops rolling in, and the deferred maintenance costs continue piling up. That’s the ponzi part of the scheme. Your house might last 75 years, but will your town’s budget keep up that long? Location, location, location indeed.
Good point. Yesterday, I was looking at people walking along the side of the road where there was no paved path or sidewalk in just that section or part of the block. I was thinking that's because they're waiting for that lot to be developed, when they'd be required to either make or pay for a sidewalk.
But until I learned about zoning laws, I thought it was the developers choosing to build single-family homes because they wanted to get the highest price (500,000 to million-dollar homes?). Come to find out it's illegal to build anything other than that or apartment towers, and they don't like mixed-use.
We visited downtown Bangor, where Stephen King's house is situated on a block where the big old houses of the wealthy in the 1920s or earlier had their neighborhood. I think the rich in those days wanted their own section, but also wanted to take advantage of the benefits of living downtown, instead of in the country, where they'd have to commute.
Part of it is also constant expansion - new houses getting built to add to the tax base. In some suburbs they have simply run out of room/land to add any more houses (regardless of whether or not the infrastructure can support them). In others, new development is often fought against. I think about my own suburban area and taxes. My taxes have not increased with the rate of inflation over the last decade. However, I am quite sure the costs to the township have significantly increased both in personnel and materials. While I am not enthused about the idea of paying more in taxes, I'm not sure what the solution is.
@samdavis6108 Maintaining your own property is not the issue, so you've missed the point entirely. If your house really is 200 years old, you're not living in a cheapo sprawled out suburb like most built after WWII. I've lived in and rented houses that were actually 150 years old, and they were structurally fine... great.
So, are all of your neighbors maintaining their property? Is the community/town/municipality/city keeping up with the maintenance costs they're obliged to? Will a sheisty politician run on an anti-prop tax platform and just defer municipal maintenance costs instead, building up an even bigger problem 10 years down the road?
@@Joe-ij6ofyou pose a bunch of questions with no solutions. It does not cost tons to maintain homes, if accomplished incrementally. Outside of major state or nationwide catastrophes, people choose to ignore necessary work - it doesn’t matter if the house was built in 1850 or 1950.
@@S_Shant Again, you've also missed the point because individuals maintaining their individual home is not the problem.
The questions DO have solutions: more density and less sprawl, include missing middle and mixed use buildings with ownable condos and local businesses on the first floor instead of walmarts half an hour away along an interstate.
As for municipal financing, don't finance with one-time fees, only use annual tax revenue and accept the fact that for every linear mile of roads, sewers, etc... you deploy, you have to pay for it. Simple.
You have forgotten to mention automobiles in particular and transportion in general. I live in a suburb. It means that in order to do anything I have to walk out of my residence, get into my car, and then drive somewhere. When I visit other countries I enjoy the experience of being able to walk to places where I want to be.
Right. I agree with you 100 percent. Suburbs have destroyed this country
I moved to a walkable suburb with sidewalks and my kids could walk to school and town. I can walk to the train to the city. I have a car, of course, but I frequently walk. Prices have skyrocketed here since the pandemic. There are affordable housing apartments going up and it's bothering people, but I think it's great. I hope it will give young families a leg up and the schools are great too. Taxes are high!
Urban planning for this country was developed around the vehicles as soon as they were invented. Entire neighborhoods and business districts were destroyed to build the roads.
So then ditch your car and move to the city.
Otherwise, stop complaining
@@beverlymcgrath8441 Lol. Taxes are going to be higher because now you have to pay for additional sewer costs and more students attending school. That's why people are complaining about the affordable housing.
Also more traffic congestion, more wear-and-tear on roads, waterways, sewage, energy grid, etc. All of which gets replaced more often. You get to pay higher taxes for these replacements.
Don't mention the high taxes because higher taxes goes without saying
As a child of suburbia, one thing that crossed my mind while watching this--the interviewee mentions how his father was disinclined to be active in the community--was that my parents were similar. In my family's case at least, this was a result of the demands of the suburban lifestyle: My parents commuted into D.C. to work every day, and the traffic each way often resulted in workdays that wound up being 12+ hours long. They just didn't have the energy to be involved in the community, and the suburbs generally aren't set up to foster a sense of community to begin with. Add to this the fact that my parents did not grow up in the area and had no lifelong ties to other people there, and the likelihood that they'd be moving out at some point, and it's easy to see how these places will decline due to lack of long-term buy-in.
I grew up in a suburban that was bring built as we moved in: ours was the first house completed. I find his ideas confusing or just false. Nobody buys an old car without expecting it's more likely to need repairs than a new one. You NEVER agree to buy a house after the real estate agent shows it to you. You need to research what remodeling has been done. Before house hunting, make an appointment with a plumber, electrician, roofer and termite control rep. Pay for their time and ask them what pitfalls to look for in an old house. It saves you money in the long run. And what does an old suburb have to do with a family's son being called a bully? My family are teachers and they cannot allow non-family into conferences in case of revelations about abuse.
This guy is nonsense. Michelle Martin is disappointing me so much with her stubborn clinging to low-quality journalism. 👎👎👎
@@ingridseim1379 I'm not sure why so many comments are about the upkeep of homes. The author seems to be talking about the maintenance of infrastructure and and public services (including education); the implication is that the amount of property tax paid by the original inhabitants was inadequate to prevent the accumulation of infrastructure debt and a decline in the quality of services. The interview could have made this more explicit.
The part about the son being called a bully was related to the changing racial makeup of older subdivisions. The author said that the school's leadership was still predominantly white, and that every misbehaviour by this black student was judged harshly and documented in his file -- even for something as trivial as tapping his pencil on his desk or spending too long in the bathroom. You can question the accuracy of the anecdote, but there have been studies that show black students are punished more than white students for the same behaviour.
The part about being unable to include extended family and community members in the conference was presented as a cultural mismatch regarding who is deemed "family" or part of the student's support group.
@@OpeongoLine thank you for taking the time to explain that to me. I appreciate that very much. I agree that the racism against people of color is real and current. I just get frustrated with this show because Michelle Martin and Walter Isaacson let things slip through that are either unclear or untrue, not because they want to deceive, but because they wander out of their lane in life into where they don't have expertise. I don't like being harsh but we really really need mainstream media to be solidly grounded now, especially since revered institutions like NYT have made such egregious errors lately.
Its just sad that this Ignorant Man reduces it to Racial Injustice.
That’s the point. To destroy white cohesion
The suburban model was invented by oil and automotive industries predicated that you don’t go anywhere unless you’re driving. Still today there are ‘burbs with no sidewalks.
Part of that is the large number of empty lots. Developers are expected to pay for sidewalks when they build. Yesterday, I saw people walking where there should have been sidewalks, but the land wasn't developed, so tough break. Car culture certainly doesn't help. I think only NYC and San Francisco are cities where you can live without a car. So perhaps the thinking went, if I have to own a car because the public transportation infrastructure in my city is bad, then I may as well live in the suburbs and commute.
@@sandal_thong8631 LA improved public transit a lot over the last 40 years so I would have to say it is a "maybe", if you have a stable work location.
Suburbs are different all over, just as are cities, there are sprawling places to very densely populated suburbs along train lines which date back for centuries. There are ultra wealthy suburbs and very poor ones and everything in between.
Selling the dream of owning one's own home... on a postage stamp sized lot with neighbours (nowadays) nearly as close as if you were sharing an apartment building.
Absolutely right. Sidewalks take up valuble 'lot' space and eat into profits so the 'developers' get rid of them where they can in coop with city councils that by the way are usually made up of real estate sellers and developers.
I don't know if this has that much to do with this topic, but there's a UA-cam channel called "Not Just Bikes" that talks about how building our cities around cars is bankrupting us for a variety of reasons such as maintaining roads and using valuable land for parking spaces instead of businesses. If I'm remembering correctly, he's said that cars are needed to make the suburbs work. At the very least, owning a car is an added expense on top of the mortgage payment.
If there is a connection, it is that racism may have made the wasteful plan of mass commuting between residential suburbs and distant workplaces seem like a good one.
He also talks about the ponzi scheme of trying to keep building out. When that can't be done anymore the whole thing collapses like a house of cards.
Prior to WWII the outlying areas were called streetcar suburbs. That was destroyed by Henry Ford so he could sell more cars.
I follow that channel and am commenting here to emphasize some aspects that this piece gives insufficient attention to, that NJB taught me about.
I love that channel. The not so great Highway Act destroyed this country and many neighborhoods.
Inflation. Privitization of infrastructure. - Flat wage growth, the 1%. Have all the dollars.
_"Democracy has become a business plan, with a bottom line for every human activity, every dream, every decency, every hope. The main parliamentary parties are now devoted to the same economic policies - socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor - and the same foreign policy of servility to endless war. This is not democracy. It is to politics what McDonald's is to food."_
*- John Pilger*
hahahahaha. YOU place NO responsibility on the homeowners within the community itself to maintain their OWN community. YOU blame everyone and everything else for the problems faced by every community in America. Geeeeezzzzzzz
BINGO. It's so weird how he tries to make this a racial thing. This is just run-of-the-mill capitalism failure. It is not just in suburbia it is everywhere. It does not discriminate. The entire economy is a ponzi scheme. Just scams within scams within other scams all run by crooks.
@@timmythecat7478 Um, no. It is very real that the little guy is turning poor while the rich have benefited.
The megalomaniac will drive the cart to hell and watch the bottom feeders devour each other .
Wish they would build a sidewalk now and then.
Years ago, I voted for a ballot measure that was supposed to increase the miles of hiker-biker trails, but though they have a "plan," there hasn't been any action on my side of town.
Yesterday, I saw people walking along the side of the 6-land road (stroad) where there should have been a sidewalk. But I think because the lots were undeveloped they were waiting for the developers to do it as part of the cost of development. As far as I know this only happens in suburbs, I don't think the sidewalk ends at empty lots downtown. They go from corner to corner, block to block.
Lack of sidewalks IS very alienating, prevents flow of neighbors in daily routine interactions, building bonds. Agree totally.
That would require taxes that people don’t want to pay because of this Ponzi scheme ideology by the rich and echoed by the lower 99% !
Most Americans find it hard to retire comfortably amid economy downtrend. Some have close to nothing going into retirement, my question is, will you pay off mortgage as a near-retiree, or spread money for cashflow, to afford lifestyle after retirement?
Agreed the role of advisors can only be overlooked, but not denied. I remember in early 2020, during covid-outbreak, my portfolio worth around $300k took a slight fall, apparently due to the pandemic crash, at once I consulted an advisor in order to avoid panic-selling. As of today, my account has yielded big fat yields, and leverages on 7-figure, only cos I delegate my excesses right.
this is huge! mind if I look up the advisr that guides you please? only invest in my 401k through my employer for now, but enthused about diversifying my investments for a prosperous financial future
Certainly, there are a handful of experts in the field. I've experimented with a few over the past years, but I've stuck with ‘’AILEEN GERTRUDE TIPPY” for about five years now, and her performance has been consistently impressive.She’s quite known in her field, look-her up.
Thank you for this tip. It was easy to find your coach. Did my due diligence on her before scheduling a phone call with her. She seems proficient considering her resume.
Suburbs are NOT the problem.
To give further context, the suburbs were literally engineered and marketed as an escape into isolation from the city and its "problems". Through FHA loans and the Montgomery GI Bill, the federal government injected billions of dollars into creating the suburbs. They represent the most costly and inefficient way to house people with respect to land use, infrastructure (roads, sewage, utilities, maintenance and upkeep). Those inefficiencies multiply over time and make suburbs unsustainable economically. So it does make sense that they are essentially throw-away disposable communities.
What is that exact same finance owned commercial broadcasting, marketing to you today? What are they “molding” the people into now? Interestingly, the exact same private institutional finance entities majority own all sides of the equation. Go in and see who the majority owners of any and all media on the stock market are, all the same, private institutional finance. So what’s their political agenda, from a 50 to 100 year financial plan point of view? Why are they divide and conquer helping to rip this country apart at the seams for their financial owners? Why is our healthcare a joke for their finance owners? Where is western finance taking their nations? What is finance’s long term plan? Doesn’t seem friendly, like it’s preparing for authoritarian control, finance and tech, hand in hand into our dysfunctional dystopian future?
Doesn’t look much like a happily ever after, shining example of anything, anymore. Interesting how a United States patented entity made everything so much more crystal clear, with all the media hype and the profits that flowed out to all the most abusive investments made in this nation. Our bodies, defiled, by design, on a mass scale. Time to clean up the for-profit entities that will make us sick, keep us sick, and kill us, all in the name of institutional finance owned corporate profits. They have gone way, way too far.
You think it's bad now? Imagine being a brown kid growing up in white suburbia in the 1970s. I was physically beaten literally every single day for asking questions. When my grades dropped because of marginalization I was put in remedial class rather than given additional resources. Racism has always been alive and well in suburbia. It just wasn't a dream for people that looked like me.
The author caught my attention when he mentioned where he grew up, since I grew up in a neighboring borough. It was an upper middle class suburban white enclave with a few Chinese American families - usually doctors or engineers. The interview was very enlightening, since I was transferred out of public school to private school, which made me even more removed from what was going on in my neighborhood. We were discriminated against at our local WASP-y country club as the first minority family to be sponsored and eventually accepted. I never liked going there, after experiencing a racial bullying incident at the swimming pool with my best friends who invited me there. Why did we have to join or go there?
African American families were starting to move in during my college years. I've always heard racially stereotypical comments about "there goes the neighborhood and the school system," but I was twice removed - away at private school and then college. To me, they seemed more like generalizations that could be true, but what did I know about property values, as a kid? After moving back home after college, the neighborhood seemed older but still safe, even though people said the local mall had become dangerous. Yet when I walked through there, I didn't feel threatened or unsafe. The store quality seemed to be downgraded into no-name brand labels, so I didn't buy anything. I even tried tracking down elementary school friends, but everybody had scattered - not sure where they all went to.... but I wanted to know what I had missed in public school after the bus merger.
After getting married and having a family, I eventually moved out of my fancy condo overlooking the city and up north to suburbia, which most reminded me of the suburb that I grew up in - mostly white again, and a few minorities, relatively new housing, highly ranked public school district, and conveniently located near the mall, the park, easy commute to downtown, etc... I was proud to tell the township school district that I am choosing to send my son to public school, instead of my alma mater private school, because I believe in a quality public school education. However, a fellow alumna pointed out the perverse irony of the situation: the public school has less diversity than our private school.
As I've become more aware of social inequities, I do pay more attention to videos like this to see my childhood through adult lens. America can be a cruel place to live, especially without a strong support system. And it can be even harsher when one does not fit into the mainstream norm, whether due to race, special needs, or just different philosophies/approaches. As an example, even at the local shooting ranges, while I can blend in with people from all political stripes, casual shooters get freaked out over my combination of martial arts, knives, and guns when conducting my cross-training drills - even though the tactical gun community views me as normal. So even to this day, I've been refused membership at one outdoor range, because of not being a good cultural/organization fit, and scolded at others for seemingly unsafe practices, even though I haven't technically violated any firearms safety rules, despite having all of the respectable credentials and experiences. People tend to ban what they are afraid of or don't understand regardless.
Thank you for interviewing the author - he brought home a lot of lucid insights to help me understand my privileged upbringing, as well as how much harder it is for others to succeed. I've always believed that I stood on the shoulders of giants, but very humbly realize that life could have turned out very differently. While I worked extra hard and studied extra hard, never believing that the playing field was level for minorities, yet so many other factors still helped me over others who did not have some of the same advantages provided by my parents. It's a very sobering thought. Keep up the great work!
Excellent comment. Now, how does a person teach that to another person and actually have them understand what you are saying 🤔
Wow!!!
Thanks for sharing these insights !
Your comment is beautiful
Good luck to you friend!
Saw this happen before my eyes over the last 40 years in the south suburbs of Chicago. Many black people who move to the suburbs are being sold a "bill of goods." It's often tantamount to paying top dollar for a used vehicle that has 300,000 miles on it.
👍🏽 Great analogy
Are you familiar with the CHATHAM neighborhood of Chicago?
@@trentpettit6336 Yes. And the difference is, that neighborhood is just ONE in the city of Chicago with over 2.5 million people, and a larger tax base, and lower property taxes in those communities overall which is in the third largest city in the country. Where many south suburban communities have a smaller tax base, larger local taxes, a shrunken commercial tax base, and less public services. What's happened in that ONE Chicago neighborhood is occurring in entire towns and villages in the south suburbs like Markham, Dolton, Harvey, Riverdale, Chicago Heights, Ford Heights, and Calumet City to name a few....
This interview is extremely insightful to me. Once again we are reminded of the discriminatory practices that keep people of color and low to middle class people down. We have a human nature problem here, I'm not sure how to solve it. Thank you Mr. Herold for doing the hard work and bring this to our attention.
It's good to be aware of it. Apparently, buying into older suburbs is like buying a "lemon" at the used car dealership.
It wasn't just that non-Yts couldn't get a loan, it was ALSO that non-Yt (esecially Blk) vets couldn't get access to the GI Bill benefits. Those benefits were only for Yt ppl, so that shouldn't be forgotten. It left a lot of Blk veterans struggling while they saw their Yt counterparts moving up the social ladder.
The GI BIll benefits were available to all veterans. In practice, blacks had much more difficulty accessing them than did whites. In total, only about 3% of white men benefited from the GI Bill's college benefits. Some 90% of white households did not benefit from the GI Bill's mortgage benefits.
@@lector247that’s correct. All veterans need an income to qualify for VA loans.
Here in So Cal we had one of the first planned cities, Panorama City. (1948)…It was geared towards repatriated WW2 veterans, the GI Bill, and the need for housing. It was also a “Covenant” city, outlawing the buying or selling of housing to non-whites.
@@richiesd1 All veterans were unemployed after serving in WW2. That was one of the main reasons the GI Bill was created.
@@ight7 , you are incorect. One needs to have an income and be able to service the mortgage in order to qualify for a VA loan. The VA loan in the GI bill is simply a zero downpayment loan, so one can buy a house without a down payment or out of pocket expenses for fees/points. The fees are rolled into the loan.
As a black man who grew up in Gwinnett county Georgia in the 90s. The boy that was "documented to death" resonates so much
A great example of this is Jackson, Mississippi. As white flight took hold and they moved to northern suburbs (it’s still happening) black families now moving to the older suburbs as white families build newer suburbs. It’s fascinating. The infrastructure in Jackson crumbled literally. The water problems etc…
Those R1 single family areas got the subsidies... but only when they were FIRST BUILT! Now they're 50 - 100 years old with lots of deferred maintenance and no subsidies.
the opposite can happen: Monrovia was largely a black community, now it's a trendy white comm.
What the school tried to do to that student is so typical. They back off on one kid and pat themselves on the back at how 'effective' they are, they pile on another kid and kick him out and pat themselves on the back.... It's arbitrary, often destructive. The bureaucrats will always say, "We had no choice."
As a middle school teacher we caught another student tagging. We caught him because four other kids who'd done a detention cleaning up tagging in my room caught him. They'd showed up to clean, grumble, grumble, slow.... then they just tried to get it done... then they got into it. Soon it was their room. They wanted to keep it clean. I loved those guys for that. This is how the fifth kid got caught. Terrific, I thought. We'll win him over too. Nope. He was kicked out ("choose another educational opportunity") as eventually were all of the first four boys. A huge waste. I wasn't doing anything special, I was just doing what a local community youth organization had been doing for decades. (One kid in that program was working inside my home six weeks after being arrested with a gun. That was thirty years ago. Terrific man, family, youth counselor.)
Most 'anti bullying' programs were just that. Bullies are bad so we need to punish them. (Like on TV and movies, the bully gets beaten up, everybody cheers.) The clear message to a bully is, Next time I need to be tougher. What I saw time and time again is victims of bullying getting blamed if they fight back, "Well, they bring a lot of that on themselves." Some bullying is ignored (the vicious mean teachers clique? ), some is punished.
re: the shared problem. I thought that by becoming a teacher I could continue to do what we'd done in our community: engage, clean up, empower, build bonds. Sounds like we had a plan. We just started painting out gang tags because they led to shootings. We were losing that battle and about to give up when the LAPD told us the local armed robbery rate went from 20-25/month to Zero. "We think it's those beige squares." So we kept doing more stuff, anything that seemed to work we did more of. In the schools? The primary concern was not education it was ADA, Average Daily Attendance, that's how they got money. They were giving high school diplomas to students who read at a second grade level, had attended Algebra classes but couldn't do basic math. I wanted to help a positive feedback loop and the bureaucracy paid no attention or actively interfered. I told my principal about a student in the Algebra II class who didn't know fractions, so I was helping him. The principal and the coordinator just kept saying, "Just make sure you present to him the Algebra II curriculum." It is a shared problem; there are just too many people and interests that profit from opposing positive change.
i love that y'all challenge your interviewees, even when you agree. great work!
Yes
Michel Martin is the very best there is. I remember when she was a young reporter on ABC's old Night Line program back in the days of Ted Koppel. I think her best work and when her personality truly shined was on her cancelled urban focused NPR radio talk and interview based program that was titled: Tell Me More. It was diverse, entertaining, broadly focused, hip, and wide ranging. I remember her for her her joy, laughter, and fun she seemed to be having. She had one segment especially on Friday, the last show of the week called The Barber Shop. A whole lot better than anything MSNBC'S Stephanie Ruhle is doing on her show. Unfortunately, it couldn't garner the critical number of the typical NPR white viewership needed to maintain it. It was a stunning announcement of cancellation at the time as it was broadly lauded for it's excellence and also as she was at the time one of the only African-Americans hosting a nationally syndicated show. She maintained and as exampled here and otner venues continued to do well, but that period for her was special.
Suburbs have always been Ponzi schemes. The residents want urban amenities, but don't want to pay the price. In the suburbs you might have ten homes in a square mile. Whereas in the city you'd have 1,000. Cities have been floating the suburbs even before this guy was born. The reason things are worsening is two-fold. 1. Acts like NAFTA accelerated the thinning-out of the middle class. 2. US GDP been declining for decades since the '70s. More of the world is industrializing (or rebuilding since WW2.) We were 50% of the world's GDP after WW2. As the world reaches economic equilibrium, the US will feel the hit the worst. we could have used these resources to bolster the middle class and provide health care. instead we gave it all to the 1%.
Wrong. Both US GDP and GDP per capita have been steadily increasing since 1980, excepting only 2008 and 2020. The lower 50% income earners pay far less than higher earners, BY PERCENT TAX RATE, not just by amount. One can make the argument for the top 1% vs the bottom 99%, but not for the lower vs. middle class, which is what the author argues.
Well, the official US GDP keeps growing, even per capita, but GDP includes a lot of activity that does not produce real wealth, so it is possible, likely even, that real US productivity, "real" meaning it makes most Americans better off, has been falling for a long time. The scheme of escaping the ill effects of racism by moving to the suburbs has collapsed, but that looks like a literal Ponzi scheme only in as much as those ill effects of racism show up financially as well as in more direct ways.
The tax rate is what kept dropping over the decades. We paid tor things by taxing the people who had the most. Now we tax the people that have the least.
The good ol trickle down bs. They bought bigger yachts & are playing in space.
You are correct - cities should have more tax revenue per square mile but politicians make that money disappear so the cost of living in cities is way too high from where it should be.
Very interesting observations & discussions. From my experience as a child psychiatrist, I have frequently seen schools take an assertive defensive position to eliminate students that do not conform to the easiest pathway for school administration. They seem to see every child as a potential school shooter, documenting them out of the school (& pushing for home schooling) as quickly as possible. The teachers each have 2 untrained “aides” & the consequence of that additional tier is that the “trained educator” doesn’t even know each child in class. Your guest, if writing on the desk today, would be admonished for destroying school property.
"The purpose of compulsory education systems is to inculcate into the masses the values of the King, because one does not revolt against one with whom they share values." -Amos Wilson
It's called respecting furniture.
If you're going to write on your desk, clean it up when you're done and leave it the way you found it.
This is an excellent interview! I immediately recognized myself in his story about drawing on his desk in 3rd grade. I did the same kind of things and was lucky to be in a well-funded, forward thinking school district that had entire staff dedicated to helping kids with learning disabilities. It's just luck that I wasn't in a system that would have "documented me to death" as in his example, and given me only punishments instead of accommodations. Herold is giving a compelling perspective on the origins of this kind of inequality- I'm sold on the book.
I really identify with this conversation. I grew up in suburbia, we were one of the emerging black population back in the 80s and 90s. It never felt like a community at all to me and we lived in the less affluent part of the suburbs where families that were trying to get to the middle class would start out. I understand why my mom wanted us in a better school district but it wasnt a good experience. schools were racist and neighbors never spoke to us.
as an adult, I always envisioned myself moving to a city basically the reverse migration that my mom and other family has done. I'd rather be part of a community even if the community needs our support and collective effort to improve.
so now I live in a lower COL city, I have a great community with neighbors that know me and I know them. I'm raising a city kid because I want my son to have a better childhood than I had. for me thats opposite of the suburban lifestyle, not to mention walkability and a smaller environmental footprint.
They were smart. Why do you need us?
I enjoy Michel’s interviews the most.
She’s engaged and asks the right questions.
I found myself holding my breath all the way through this conversation. What insight! I'm in a place where Bethany Smith finds herself. I've got to get this book and take a look at my town's community development. Thank you.
I saw your comment about your child being singled out. I suspect the person from the family of Hispanic teachers deleted their comment because they didn't like what you, me and others were saying.
I do like good urbanism videos. Suburban sprawl and only zoning for either single-family detached houses or apartment towers takes away everything in between that could be good land use. I'd heard before this was done to make it harder for Blacks to buy houses, where they might have been able to buy an attached house, like the rows you see on the _All in the Family_ intro and exit. Maybe people didn't like The Jeffersons moving in next door?
The other thing I saw recently was the movie _Origin_ based on the book _Caste: The Origin of Our Discontent,_ which is a journey of discovery by the author whose thesis is that caste separates people who look similar in other countries (Nazi Germany, and India) but leads to racism and systemic racism in our country. For the topic at hand, it would relate to the idea that Blacks don't deserve a high-quality education (or good healthcare, or good homes) because their place in society is service jobs and janitorial.
In my favorite Carl Sagan book, _The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark (1996)_ one of the controversial opinions he received from readers was "I don't want you to improve education. Then there'd be nobody to drive the cabs."
@sandal_thong8631 Whoa--your ending! Really? We really do need to 'change the thought process' (I want to use a different word here, but it's not coming to mind). Someone had a book recently on changing the narrative in order to change thought in betterment for all. Thank you for the references you mentioned here, too. I'm adding them to my list of things to get. ❤️
The channel "Strong Towns" and many other channels on urban development have many videos on the fact suburbs have been a Ponzi scheme from the beginning. The developer gets the money and the first owner does ok if they can sell the house before too many suburbs of a given town have reached 20 years old. Around 20 years is when roads need expensive repair and resurfacing but the taxes from the suburbs don't cover this 20-year cost just normal yearly maintenance. The first few area the reach the 20-year mark get the expensive road work paid for out of all the areas' taxes and everything looks fine. There is a bit more debt after each area hits the 20-year mark,. when enough areas have hit the 20-year mark the town goes bankrupt and the current homeowners are left holding the bag.
It seems weird that well-to-do people living in the suburbs couldn't afford to maintain their neighborhood's infrastructure. But if they don't want to pay taxes, but rather take the increasing land value of their homes for themselves when they sell it, then it makes sense that you'd have "suburban decay" after the minorities move in.
@@sandal_thong8631On top of that the republicans made the entities that caucasians own (businesses) citizens. Therefore, further expanding their power above the rest of the country. Then put 💰 in politics. And you know who has ALL that in America. Let's see what happens when it dries up.
@@sandal_thong8631The analysis has to be done in context with the area. Say, Boca Raton Florida. The subdivisions that are gated have meticulous demands for the exteriors and grounds, we are talking extreme money penalties for moldy driveways or roofs, all noticeable repairs, exclusions on vehicles, no street parking no unappealing anything, 4 inch thick binder. But, the schools are county wide, as Palm Beach County School District. Although “well rated”, the high school looks like a prison, the middle schools and even grade schools are plagued with unacceptable behaviors and conditions, and no surprise…all those in the gated communities send their children to private schools, leaving the public schools well funded, but with massive problems that get public press. The most noticeable difference is aggressive, demeaning bullying and violent behavior, that would only be addressed by expulsion, actively done in the past. This is coming from our culture, where manners, morals, and striving for the highest standards of behavior were abandoned, in the name of profit, at many levels. We are now a decadent society that glorifies the worst aspects of the 7 deadly sins, and our governments and businesses deliberately created all of this for profit. They fostered this culture where violence is normalized, even in our courts, abuse is normalized. Shameful unethical behavior shaping our children’s lives. Truly sad for our present and our future. When will we become a Top Ten Quality of Life country for all our people? Based on our colonial oppressive and optimizing disparity coming from the top…I’d say never. It’s like the British Empire forever tarnished our ability to rise above. Britain isn’t in the top ten either. Both of us falling, just faster here.
I came here to mention Strong Towns as well. A great organization.
Thank you, Michel Martin, for this conversation. And thanks to Mr. Herold for his work.
As a Black person I saw this a long time ago. Many black ppl leave urban areas to go to older suburbs. Which then is more expensive because everything is old.
Yup. And that’s why most Americans are PHATT now
It's because you leap before you think...!!!
You guys cover stuff that I never heard before.
You should be proud of the content you produce.
This guy is very good at dispensing a large amount of info quickly.
You never heard it before because it’s nonsense
@11:00 As a non-yt kid in an upper middle class mainly Yt neighborhood, I was heavily policed too. Every move I made was scrutinized, and my family too thought about using respectability politics to make sure that the Yt ppl knew we were one of the "good ones." All this is dehumanizing. You see the Yt kids doing all kinds of crazy things, and it is just kids play. You do anything, like talk too loud or wear clothing they deem inappropriate, and you are sent to the principal's office immediately. I even witnessed the Yt women in my neighborhood try to get two biracial girls ages 3 and 6, banned from the pool because they said their bathing suits weren't appropriate. Frankly, if you as a grown adult are looking sideways at a 3 yr old or 6 yr old -- you are the one that needs to get banned from the pool!
Yes that sounds very upsetting.I am sorry to hear that.
After watching the movie, _Origin_ based on the book _Caste: The Origin of Our Discontent_ I'm considering that these supposedly racist actions are about people wanting to make sure people of lower caste are kept in their place: poor education, low-wage jobs without benefits, inferior medical care and ghetto housing. One of the stories was about a Black child not being allowed in the pool with the whites. Supposedly, he would pollute the water, like they said about low caste people not being allowed to touch fresh water systems in India.
There aren't enough police to scrutinize your every move. You aren't important enough to watch anyway. You are imagining things.
@@sandal_thong8631 Nobody is keeping people down. They fail on their own.
Donjindra sounds maga - ish .
There is a story here, but it's not about race. Many, many municipalities (both urban and suburban) have unaffordable debt levels as a result of shortsightedness. In the case of the author's hometown, Penn Hills, the debt is due to a combination of poor financial decisions and outright fraud in the construction of new schools. In my (95% white) town, it's due to overly generous pensions and health insurance benefits for retired town employess (in a town with an annual budget of $160 million, the unfunded liability for retirees was more than $400 million). Schools and streets and sewers wear out regardless of who's living in the town.
There is certainly an economic part of the suburban decline that is discussed: debt, deferred maintenance, low investment. Your examples add malfeasance to the list. Why deny the experience of others, however? Are economic factors the only topic allowed? Historically, it is well-documented that redlining and denial of GI benefits helped produce predominantly white suburbs. Rejecting the possibility that cultural or social factors may now exist denies both historical and testimonial evidence.
"not only about race."
Damn straight. Not everything is about race.
Cultural and social factors are causing streets and sewers to need replacement and schools to wear out? The author says that people in the suburbs today, including many more non-white people, aren't enjoying the same idyllic experience of his youth and suggests that there's something nefarious about that. My point is simply that any older town will experience those problems independent of the race of the residents. Yes, non-whites were excluded from some developments 60-70 years ago, but that doesn't mean that a town's debts and required maintenance today are somehow unfair to black people. The author bringing race into the discussion is specious at best.
@@lector247 But it has something to do with race, right? Race doesn't cause neighborhoods to wear out, but wearing out neighborhoods does cause those who live in the neighborhood to move on and find new neighborhoods with fresh infrastructure. What's left behind is sold at a discount, and that is bought by poor(er) people, which in this country is disproportionately made up of races other than white. I agree that from this author and this discussion the issue of race seems a bit contrived, but the system of urban planning/taxation etc. does take advantage of poor people, and so in the USA, it is largely taking advantage of people who are not white.
Almost all the wealth accumulated by the boomer generation was the result of cheap energy which because of the damage done to the environment, is not so cheap in the long run. Now, the long run is here and we either turn to more expensive, less convenient renewable energy or we continue to destroy the planet and pay the higher cost of constantly repairing the damage done to homes, infrastructure, agriculture, human healthy, savage temperature extremes, super-storms, hundreds of millions of climate refugees fleeing lands near the equator become unihabitable--everything, everything will skyrocket in price. The party's over. The younger generation of all races will suffer--but so will the oldest generation, as they find what they thought were their small fortunes evaporate in rising costs and medical bills.
Only the super rich--who tricked you into trickle down economics and the "cheap" stuff through globalization (did you really think stuff made in China would be cheap forever? As counries like China industrialized, they began to compete with Americans for natural resources thereby driving up prices; and their billionaires buy American real estate as a way to store their wealth because America has rule of law so their wealth cannot be confiscated by a dictator or an undemocratic government)--will remain somewhat wealthy.
Great conversation. I think the housing shortage is only exacerbating the tension that the book is about.
In some areas, only single-family detached houses with big front lawns are allowed, by (zoning) law. Then nearby they will allow high-rise apartments. So there's only those two and nothing in between like townhomes, small apartments, small houses, etc.
Another video suggested this was due to keeping Blacks out since the 1940s. That Blacks might have be able to afford smaller houses condos, etc. but they didn't want them there, so deliberately prevented this type of construction.
I think the 'housing shortage' is, in part, a result of the sprawl. Kunstler calls it 'the greatest misallocation of resources in the history of the world.'
@@sandal_thong8631 Stop it. Not everything is about racism. You're thinking with your emotions.
The reason there is nothing in between is congestion. You're complaining about a situation that benefits you. 🤦🏻♀️
More density means more traffic congestion, more road usage, quicker deterioration of roadways, more wear-down of sewage systems, more replacement of sewage pipes, higher demand for local energy, higher costs for local energy, more kids in schools, higher taxes to support kids...more density equals less quality of life for you.
And that's before I even get into environmental damage and waterway pollution. If you want to live in density, move to the city
I grew up Wilmington Delaware and was constantly afraid of being robbed or beaten up. Had a gun pulled on me at age 14. So happy to move to the suburbs where I knew my kids wouldn’t have to live like this.
I grew up in many white suburbs and truly, there was so much for me to learn afterwards when on my own. I’m grateful for being a truth seeker and drawn to spirituality, consciousness, personal healing and growth. Diversity and free spirit expansion to caring love for each and all- continues to be so beautiful and inspiring. ❤❤❤❤❤
Sprawling on the fringes of the city
In geometric order
An insulated border
In-between the bright lights
And the far, unlit unknown
Growing up, it all seems so one-sided
Opinions all provided
The future pre-decided
Detached and subdivided
In the mass-production zone
Nowhere is the dreamer
Or the misfit so alone
Subdivisions
In the high school halls
In the shopping malls
Conform or be cast out
Subdivisions
In the basement bars
In the backs of cars
Be cool or be cast out
Any escape might help to smooth
The unattractive truth
But the suburbs have no charms to soothe
The restless dreams of youth
Drawn like moths, we drift into the city
The timeless old attraction
Cruising for the action
Lit up like a firefly
Just to feel the living night
Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory
Of lighted streets on quiet nights
Subdivisions
In the high school halls
In the shopping malls
Conform or be cast out
Subdivisions
In the basement bars
In the backs of cars
Be cool or be cast out
Any escape might help to smooth
The unattractive truth
But the suburbs have no charms to soothe
The restless dreams of youth
-Rush (1982)
Reminds me of the "Ponzi scheme" neighborhoods with HOA's. You move in when they are new with VERY LOW HOA fees. 15 to 20 years down the road the roads are falling apart, the community pool/clubhouse have not been maintained, and the common areas/fences are falling apart. Those who have lived there those 15 to 20 years have NEVER wanted to put away the necessary money to pay for maintenance while the Pulte Homes (just an example) got their subsidies from the town/county and left with full pockets. Just sayin'. You see this throughout Southern California and Phoenix and Denver, etc.
Very interesting interview.
On the one hand, I am grateful that we still have such "journalism" that is able to observe, discuss and report such things. On the other, I felt that this was a highly biased and narrow conversation; am certainly intrigued enough to try to read to read his book to get a fuller picture. As someone who lived in these suburbs and still do, I think his narratives were overly simplistic, very much wokeist, and did not represent the reality completely. This is a complex problem. However, to rush to judge that this is racist is ridiculous. There is severe economic mismanagement of taxpayer dollars in many of these suburbs of both white or colored majority. Electorally, the majority ensures very little accountability or consequences for mismanagement. The public schools underperform because significant % of students attending do not come from family environments that demand or enforce any kind of discipline or academic expectations. The teachers and school admins are left to deal with a chaotic and dysfunctional 25 kids as best they can, for 8 periods a day; it's not their fault. Are property values lower in these suburbs now than before? They ought to be, if the situation is as awful as Herold describes, why would anyone want to live there?
Yes, i agree
It is always complicated. But by blaming "wokeism" and "mismanagement" you show, not that you are racist yourself, but that you have been listening to racist messaging. There is a lot of it in the air these days. If mismanagement is increasing dramatically in many places at one time, there is almost certainly an underlying cause. What do you suppose it is? Or could it be that there's no money because it was legally stolen by fancy financial manipulations? This interview does not "rush to judge that this is racist", it tells a specific story about racism playing out in a suburban school. Hopefully the book either backs that up with statistics, or shows what has to be done to find out if the statistics are in line with that story.
Absolutely. You took the words out of my mouth. I'd love to see how that kid was acting in school. We're getting a third or fourth hand telling of events...
Ponzi scheme is a poor analogy also. It implies that there was some intention to deceive...
You’re watching a channel glorifying war criminal Hillary Clinton, and are surprised by an author saying something woke? 😂 I have no idea what you were expecting.
The “complete reality” is bigoted and dangerous, the woke (as in, attacking White people) view is free of any legal consequences.
Redlining and white flight are not racial? I'd sure love to live in your fantasy world. Also, two things (or multiple things) can exist at one time. White flight and redlining did/do exist and are racist policies AND suburbs are ponzi schemes that don't pay for the infrastructure needed to maintain them.
Meanwhile, instead of electing competent politicians, we elect Trump
Joe Biden is competent? Lol
Way more competent than the orange liar and conman. Biden is not looking to tear america apart the way the republican traitors are.@@AliBooondok
by comparison there's no question...
one had Zero experience in governing, one knows the system as well as any politician in the whole country. governing is like managing a business that produces any and all products material and intellectual present on the market.
there's a very good reason a competent company hires a CEO who has as much experience as possible. vision, plans, intentions is one thing and competence is another... @@AliBooondok
Biden brain dead is your president you tremendous failure in ife.
@@AliBooondokmore competent than Ali booondok ? No way !
I really like this. I wish there were more conversations like this.
Strong Towns is a podcast about similar topics.
Move to an area where they live and talk it up!
@@Mark-nx7mr where is that!?
As a black man, my family moved out to the suburbs a long time ago to escape the poverty of the inner city and the crime. Most families do not escape to the suburbs to run from race. They run away to the suburbs for class reasons. If you're making money and you have higher education, you do not want your children to be exposed to ignorance and the violence of the inner cities. I really don't like all this race baiting. People are escaping crime and the downward quality of life brought about through the disastrous policies of city politics. Many of these policies are not geared toward nuclear families. Educated and financially responsible families desire these elements. It's not about race.
Best comment here.
We are a multicultural family. I'm Caribbean from a Christian background and my wife Ethiopian Muslim. We settled in Dallas suburbs (for now). It is difficult to ignore the subtle racial aftertaste of Suburbia even if it is more and more challenged by educated and successful minorities from foreign countries.
It’s not about race…. For you… But it may be that way for the ones who may interact with you. Just look at the example of this video of the successful black family that sent their child to school only to be labeled a “problem”. Sigh… Open your eyes.
@@bd10232003 maybe he was a problem
@@aryandefenseleague8243 I wasn’t talking to you though…
When Bethany bought the house near your childhood home, she surely knew that the house was not a new and neither was that neighborhood.
I know that area…to me they were new homes. I lived in a borough a few miles away (older homes, sidewalks and a Main Street). Our house was built in 1915 and wasn’t the oldest house on our block. My elementary school was built in 1958 and is no longer a school but a retirement home. The suburbs to me were homes with light colored brick, attached garages, no sidewalks and finished basements. They were also hollow doors, plywood floors and subpar structure. The United States in all aspects of infrastructure has been negligent.
I live in a city, and I love not having to drive everywhere. I can walk to many things that I need, and a subway station is 5 blocks away. I don’t live is a fancy neighborhood, but I feel safe here, and I appreciate the diversity around me
You believe this BS? that whites bought homes to left towns fall apart to sell as a whole country wide to minorities?
Suburbs in North Carolina & South Carolina is where many people who left the Northern suburbs have flocked to. In many ways this is the new white flight.
I felt people living in the Triangle (Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill) are more progressive and tolerant (race and LGBTQ) than those out in "the country" even if they're not living downtown, but the suburbs between them. And many came from other places due to the job market.
Yes, we are trying to escape murder and violence they bring.
Maybe the suburb I was raised in the '50's was different? Everything in my community was funded by local corporate taxes and investments. The schools, streets, .... were funded by local corporate taxes. Yes I lived in a manufacturing hub of the world at the time. I remember my father getting really upset when the school costs were shifted to the property taxes from the Corporate coffers.
In my burb, rated one of the top school districts in the country while I was there, the local corporations also wanted an educated working force. They contributed to the schools additionally with funding for shop classes.
It was a heavily Blue Democratic state. But with gerrymandering and other illegal voting suppression actions, we are now a Minority ЯёрцЫёсдл Рдятч controlled state. Our tax money goes to the corporations and schools are stripped of funding. The personal greed driven Conservatives are destroying our State!
People have complained about schools being supported by local property taxes, which in the suburbs would be residential. My understanding was that this made for inequitable schools because the low-wage communities would have less money for schools than the high-wage neighborhoods.
But I hadn't thought of corporate taxes funding the schools. Of course there's property taxes on downtown businesses and office buildings which should be higher per acre than for a single family home or a drive-through fast-food place with a lot of parking.
Also, people don't like the idea of land-value taxation, because they want to be able to sell their houses and property for "free" money, as real estate prices rise, even as their home gets older and they've done nothing to develop their empty lot.
You 2 need a black history lesson and with the quickness.
@@sandal_thong8631 "But I hadn't thought of corporate taxes funding the schools. Of course there's property taxes on downtown businesses and office buildings" I'm talking longer ago. Few even major cities got their start as business capitals. Most were trading and manufacturing. The tax base did not exist at the personal property level to build the schools to attract the people out to the burbs. Only after the corporate taxes funded the original school systems did they want to shift that tax burden to the local personal population.
@@andreabrown4541 My burb was a Sundown Town. Blacks not allowed except to work.
Exactly what I grew up with. We used to have to rally around getting "millages" passed.
They would threaten half days if they did not pass. I had half day all of first grade.
Where I live now, more funding comes from the state. Ironically, inner city schools spend far more per student than others. I'm not saying it is spent effectively .
And don't forget:" We don't like the way he wears his hair."
What a fascinating interview! I was captivated by the honesty and candid nature of Mr. Herold, also the great line of questioning from Michel Martin. Excellent reporting.
I thought - for, like, the last 50 years now - we all knew that suburbs existed so that the bourgeoise didn’t have to see poor people, which are essentially the mining waste of their careers. This is new?
That's idiotic.
Let's mark@@donjindra as one of the people who lives in a state of ignorance and bliss about the reality around him.
Your claim seems a bit exaggerated...at least in terms of conscious intent @@phaedrussmith1949
@@phaedrussmith1949 Mark away. I don't care what ideologues say about me. It won't change the fact that the above statement is idiotic leftist propaganda. There is no more need to provide evidence for your assertion than there is need for MAGA Republicans to provide evidence for their propaganda. Ideologues want to believe so, so badly.
Exactly they wanted to live far away from minorities
Race is a secondary factor to economic class. Middle and upper class people of all races for the most part do not want to live nearby poor people of any race. The lower socioeconomic class people migrating to the older suburbs where housing prices are declining pay lower property tax than the original residents while the infrastructure maintenance costs are increasing. The higher classes move to new suburbs or urban areas with higher property tax base and resources to build new developments or reinvigorate decaying urban cores that poor have fled. The cycle continues. We do a disservice to improving the quality of life for these groups by focusing on race while America’s dirty secret of class is the real issue.
I used to completely agree with this, but now only partially agree. The difference is that I learned more about the role of racism in creating and preserving a correlation between skin color and economic class in the US. But I still think that US stratification into socially distinct classes based on wealth is more important than the national mythology wants to admit.
Even MLK Jr. said that it was more about economic parity. The problem is with blacks who keep spending their dollars in businesses that do not hire demographically. You vote with your billfold.
@@paulperkins1615am sorta in your same boat. I have recently become more informed of the history of race in America and its depth. A great majority of the problems still primarily boil down to classism, irrespective of background / ethnicity.
It’s mostly class. Mostly. But when you’re “one of the good ones” you often hear racist statements like that. It’s as if you’ve transcended and people can share their true thoughts. Every black or brown person that’s “made it” has stories like that. Trust me.
Race is the primary factor in this case because many of these suburbs were explicitly segregated until they began to age and the maintenance costs began to skyrocket. And the zoning restrictions in these communities and resale market for mortgage debt kept prices artificially high even though an aging home in a debt ridden community should be declining in value.
And then we tore down prosperous black neighborhoods to build freeways. And now suburban communities are fighting projects to dismantle freeways that run through cities. (See Syracuse) The racism and cost transfer is the same.
💯
I grew up in white suburbia and as an adult lived in two major cities, one small city, and I prefer suburban life over city life. However, it's a myth suburbia is the perfect life. It's rife with small-mindedness and meanness. Sometimes we have to realize our children may not be like us as they have no point of historical reference. Believing you're giving your children the best life possible doesn't mean they'll get the best. The quality of public schools has gone down, IMO, along with a sense of place. Teachers and school administrators really don't care because it is evident in the lack of communication with parents. They could give two craps if your child succeeds in school or not, and that applies to all races.
Agreed... school choice is an important factor. Parents need to think outside the standard suburban box. There are excellent online schools and online communities now. The suburbs have backyards and single family houses which are preferable over apartments for most families. Suburban housing makes sense but suburban public schools are just cold one size fits all machines. Parents need to have school choices.
Brilliant analysis. Teachers and administration don't care about kids. That must be the reason for the decline in quality of public schools. Bravo! You nailed it.
Teachers actually care a lot, but are restricted on what they can do. Parents still need to parent and it’s the ones who don’t that screw everything up because schools end up spending an inordinate amount of time on bad behavior.
This was so enlightening because this was definitely my experience. We moved to the suburbs in 1985 outside of Detroit. Almost immediately, we started seeing our white neighbors leave. As they started to leave, so did the services that made it once a great community. Then what happened is the first wave of minorities saw the writing on the wall, and they started moving out but they hadn't built up equity like their white counterparts had so they took a financial hit when selling their homes.They sold to other minorities that were not as financially stable as the first wave. However, the cost of living in this community still was climbing despite not providing the same services as they did for the white residents that had initially lived there. You add increasing cost of living there with less financially stable residents then you get a suburb that is not as visually pleasing as it was before. Then these families get blamed for ruining the neighborhood. They can't make the major repairs because they don't have large amount of equity in their homes to get equity lines of credits to make those repairs. Also, many of the services to help homeowners keep their homes in good repair also disappeared once the whites left. One example of this was when we first moved to the suburbs the city had trucks that would come down the street and pick up leaves in spring, summer and fall. The homeowner just had to take their leaves to the streets. About 3 years after we moved in they stopped doing this. They also sold really cheap and sometimes free flowers for spring and summer. Homeowners took advantage of this and the streets were lined with homes with beautiful gardens. They stopped this program. If you didn't know about these things and you saw the neighbors with whites and after whites it would look like the minorities just didn't care but it wasn't that they didn't care but they had to pay double property and garbage pickup fees and it left very little room in the budget for flowers.
Detroit is perhaps the most extreme and sad example of what can happen. I'm sorry for what has happened to your city.
I grew up white in the Jim Crow south. This is sadly just the next extension of the original struggle of this country, resistant to accept black people as equal partners.
Yeah it’s a big conspiracy against you bro
@@RyanRuark There's no conspiracy about it. It's right out in the open.
@@RyanRuark Read a book, Ryan.
I saw the movie _Origin_ recently which treats racism in the light of the idea of caste: that there are lesser people that the higher-ups shouldn't mix with (marry, socialize, etc.) whose place it is to do the menial jobs. In India it's class at birth not looks; in our society caste lines up with race, with Blacks (and Native Americans) being on the bottom who have to move out of the way when their betters want something. Hispanics are somewhere in between, as some can pass as white and benefit from the privileges, while those who look "swarthy" and speak a lot of Spanish and match stereotypes, are second or third-tier equal or below white women. And it's those who want to perpetuate this ordered society and caste-system that encourage racism.
@@sandal_thong8631 but your "caste" system looks nothing like the artificial "caste" system created by white folks. Which is why black America was able to grow the black middle class so quickly. Then white America started moonwalking back to the 1950s.
I had to listen to this twice. So deep.
Such a vital and engaging discussion. I am so very grateful for the illumination on what has gone on in the last 50 to 60 years in the United States.
The concept of an inter-generational contract is one that most of us have no concept of. Maybe for our own children, grand, children, and on, but not for our neighborhoods.
This was an excellent interview -- thank you so much for sharing! ❤
Great analysis- the truth is devastating. Connect the dots-when we do connect the dots, we quickly come upon the ugly truth- this stuff didn't happen by accident. There is a phrase I recall: predatory inclusion...
NOT! I realized I was "racist" after I moved into my new house -- in a new subdivision -- on the outskirts of Houston. I was the only white person on my street! I'm still ashamed to admit that I had assumed there were mostly white folks there -- as had been true in several similar moves. I actually enjoy this neighborhood more -- because the "folks" here actually talk to each other! :)
Nothing you wrote makes you sound like a racist.
Sounds like you moving in is what they derogatorily call "gentrification."
@@sandal_thong8631Term literally refers to the gentry moving into an area.
Thank you writing & discussing this topic, Mr. Herold 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
I'm going back to my hometown of Rochester, New York. I want to invest in and improve rental stock. I don't have much to invest but I hope to make a tiny difference. I grew up in the city. The inner city. I lived through red-ling and the destruction of downtown Rochester by "Urban Renewal." Perfect timing for this book. I want to reach white folks who just don't "get it" about white privilege and this book will help. Yes, it was designed from the beginning. It was also a way to sell cars. No good public transportation put in. It was all about cars.
I just saw a video asking why there aren't more small-lot downtown apartments. One answer was the need for two stairwells in three to six-story apartments. So they have to buy multiple lots at the same time. And they're less likely to offer an apartment with windows on more than one side of the building.
Previously, I read zoning laws make it so there can't be smaller apartment buildings like Europe. It's said that in some places there's only apartment towers and single-family detached homes; nothing in between.
@@sandal_thong8631I watched the same. It was an excellent / informative vid
You do realize that by becoming a landlord that these same people that you are trying to curry favor with will demonize you? That is unless you plan on renting out your apartments for free.
It is horrible. This also impacts the young man, and his feelings about himself. It affects siblings, if he has any. It fatigues the parents. All due to fear and being stuck in old ways. It makes one wonder if blacks shouldn't create private schools that focus on recruiting middle class black kids. It's very sad.
Some creativity and action towards a breakout from public school is needed in this child's situation. Instead the parents are focusing on being discriminated against. Public schools are mass production style generic machines. These parents need to wake up and think outside the standard box.
So, he’s saying that all this infrastructure was built using government subsidies and debt that was pushed onto future generations, but NO property tax? NO income tax?
I appreciate how the author is so passionate about the disparities he has been documenting and exposing. Thanks for such great work!
Tall timbers did a study here....sub..urbs were the most sub..sidized part of the county.
This is a good dude 🙌🏾✌🏾🤙🏾🙏🏾…I would call him brother in a heartbeat! Smart & very understanding!
Thank you for this segment! Kudos for recognizing this
Mr. Herold explained his findings in such detail that I saw the importance of his studies. I wouldn't have been able to feel the actual impact by just reading statistics. Thanks for the insightful questions
The Atalanta people who have a son that is getting into trouble take no personal responsibility, they blame the school and the suburbs? What a load of BS.
I think what they are trying to say is that money that should have gone to the inner cities went to the suburbs.
That seems to be the point. Compact areas with a lot of commercial, residential, and retail space raises a lot of property taxes. But since well-to-do people vote more than the poor, their representatives likely encouraged this money to subsidize developmental sprawl.
You cannot force people to participate in failed investments
@@mennydorgesEldenRingArchive what was the failed investment?
Trillions upon trillions have been squandered on these "people"
The data supports that more people were lifted out of poverty and became productive citizens. @@Mark-nx7mr
This story is only one part of of a much bigger story as to why suburbs were created . As an urban planner who’s studied the history of communities, there were many factors, like rapid population growth, flight from rural areas, societal changes, zoning evolution, developer marketing, TV shows/movies, factories being built where there was cheap ground, media that promoted suburbs for many non-racial benefits, banking practices, new concept of malls, expansion of infrastructure, and definitely mass use of automobiles. Take social changes as an example. Walt Disney lived with his wife, brother and his brother‘s wife in a two bedroom home for many years. That was a norm. Couples w/o children today would want a 3 bedroom home and certainly not have their siblings living w them. Just saying that housing needs changed quickly after the war and “suburbs” were the desired form of development at the time.
I love that the interviewer would push back and ask hard questions, the author did not always answer but overall I liked the conversation. I have already seen our community change in 15 years but since it was new then I guess we are still in the early going relatively speaking.
From the 60s to the mid to late 80s, most of the people living in those suburbs had union jobs with defined benefit plans. Those are gone now, and people living there work multiple jobs on the gig economy. Not sure I’m following the let bullies be bullies they’re just kids, not in the era of school shootings.
I think the point of the discipline story was that white kids weren't treated the same. Same goes with police giving a warning to whites, but arresting Blacks (or worse) for the same "offense."
The GI Bill helped many of those initial White families move to the suburbs. Most Black veterans of WWII didn't receive those benefits.
Because all they did was rape
Not sure about where he is talking about, but the suburbs of Chciago are mostly Black and Brown people.
I live in the city and my neighborhood is mostly illegals.
This is a very informative interview.
I can relate to his story, because it has happened in my city & community.
Thanks for this fantastic interview❤❤.❤❤❤❤❤
I really appreciate Herold's perspective. However, I don't know if this problem is necessarily racial in its essential nature. I remember watching the film by Andrei Codrescu in the early 90's called Road Scholar. It was a very interesting and, in my opinion, insightful description of American life. He got a driver's license and drove across America. I believe the city Codrescu first came to when he immigrated to America was Detroit, and his visit to Detroit was the saddest part of the film. Of course Detroit suffered terribly from white flight and still does. But his story was about how Berry Gordy left Detroit, moved Motown out of it, when he had the money to move to Hollywood. So I think you can show that fundamentally, what is going on in much of America is money flight rather than white flight. He talked about what a real blow the loss of Motown was to the black community of Detroit.
Now, I don't mean to deny there is a very strong racial element in this problem. A lot of the damage was done in the 60's and 70's when the flight was motivated to a great extent by racism. But today I think you can analyze it more as a matter of selfishness than racism.
It certainly is a money flight, but racism is what drives the first families to leave. Many of these areas were designed to exclude blacks. When the first blacks move in the residents that placed a very high importance on living in all white area will be the first to move out. The residents that are willing to live with a small number of blacks, but not more than say 5 or 10% will be next to move. And so on as more blacks move in.
This of course will be encouraged by real state agents who profit more when neighborhoods are in transition. That is white flight more than money flight. In the case of Motown, they moved to L.A. because they wanted to expand into television and movies that's not something that could be done successfully staying in Detroit. Detroit was hurt much more by the auto industry's adoption of automation and outsourcing. That might be better described as Job Flight.
@@jefflewis4 I agree that racism was the biggest factor, say, in the 1950's to the 1970's. People's refusal to live with people unlike themselves. This had an adverse effect of people of color that continues to this day. And you're right that the greed of the real estate industry also plays a big role in it, right up to now. But I don't know if that is necessarily racism. Below I made a comment to someone named lector247, who first commented 4 days ago:
"I think we can kind of see a basic contrast here. A contrast between people who want to blame any problems cities have on poor choices by individuals, and people who want to see we make choices as a society that influence how things go. I think lector247 was basically saying something like this: "People who have the money are always justified in moving further out if they want to. They have no responsibility for the problems of the towns they leave." But they really do."
It's difficult to know for sure without being directly involved... knowing all the people events etc.. I'd like to point out, the likelihood of assuming things happen as a result of one's color over the likelihood of them happening due to his actions. regardless of his color. It's just to easy to call racism these days. It maybe time to step back and re evaluate the situation.
I saw the movie _Origin_ recently, which profiled the author on her journey of discovery that the origin of racism in this country might be based on caste, like in India from birth though they look alike, and Nazi Germany where they passed anti-Jewish laws to put the Jews in their place, before deciding to exterminate them.
So the idea is that Blacks are the lowest caste, doing menial jobs, with non-English-speaking Hispanics perhaps one level up doing tedious jobs in packing plants, as day laborers and tradesmen: carpentry, roofing, etc. Some English-speaking Hispanic men can pass as white, so would benefit from white privilege. But police, teachers and school administrators are now involved in maintaining the social order, so it's not the individual racist police officer, teacher or administrator causing an injustice, but the system of caste.
Disillusioned is a very good description of what the entire human race is. We all need to "get over ourselves" and accept we are not in control-----There is a higher power.
You gave it a pretty good start, but could have gone more into detail about how suburbs are often in financially unsustainable. In particular, many more remote suburbs connected to existing infrastructure by new roads can often come with a long-term, steady state annual maintenance requirement in the thousands or even tens of thousands of of dollars _per house_ served by those roads. In many cases, the market cannot bear the amount of property tax it would take to pay for the maintenance on the roads that made these suburbs possible.
Very interesting story. I am white and I have been brought up in the Netherlands. My primary school in the early sixties was in a tiny village. My secondary school in the late sixties was in Amsterdam. I remember not encountering any pupils who were black then at both schools. Later people from Suriname came to live in Amsterdam and other places in the Netherlands so that became more the norm. I do not believe that the integration with colored people were always so smoothly in the Netherlands. There were no riots but more if you felt safe in some aria's round Amsterdam and it very much depended how educated a black family was. My eleven year jonger brother's best friend was of colour. His mother was from Trinidad and his father was white. So on both schools ( the same schools I had attended 11 years earlier )my brother and his friend were firm friends so here is a nice story who two people from diffident color got on very well with each other. 😊
I think he’s leaving out a piece of the popularity of the suburbs. After WWII many GIs returning home were from small farms. It was not always possible to return to those farms. That isn’t where the jobs were and many family farms were being bought up as they were pushed out by corporate farming. So the appeal of a suburb vs a city for someone that was coming from a rural area was greater. It was a middle ground.
That's true, keeping in mind farm land ownership also has racist roots that only exacerbate the problems he's describing.
Today suburbia is under duress from massive warehouse buildings on wetlands and remaining open spaces. Add the 24/7 truck traffic with noise and pollution and road degradation. Throw in the overgenerous tax breaks to these corporations. Not a place people want to live. Returning to crime ridden cities is not appealing. At some point, where does one go for peace, safety and acceptable societal supports, e.g., schools, libraries, hospitals, police and fire support. The discussion did not answer the last point.
Have you looked at statistical crime rates? Or are you just assuming all cities are crime ridden?
Slapping a person at the back of the head is very unsafe. The author of "Disillusioned" trivialized this about 13:11. Maybe he himself is a little uninformed of what really happens in the classroom?
So deeply insightful. I see this in my own community.
11:10 it takes a village to raise a child…. Probably best if all concerned parties are aware of which kids are where in the social acceptance scale - especially pre-teens. Identify disparities within the entire group of children and address those needs as a community. Less punishment and more transformation!
Where did he grow up? I grew up on Long Island and we were a very mixed bunch. My neighborhood had Irish, italians, Puerto ricans, Jewish, black, it was very diverse and it was suburbia. I remember when I moved to Arizona thinking what's wrong with this place? Something is different. I realized it was that there were only two races white in Mexican (with a very small population of African-Americans and other minorities). I might add that I am 65 years old now so we're talking 45 years ago. I do go back and visit Long Island though it remains diverse perhaps because of its proximity to New York City where all the immigrants come in.
I think we’ll have to read his book to get more data and fewer anecdotes. But I agree - go damn near anywhere in North Jersey or eastern NY state and you’ll see a real melting pot US
To me he is trying to paint the entire country with the same broad brush that occurred in the rust belt and other manufacturing areas. The decrease in income that people used to invest in occurred as the factory jobs that supported those areas went away.
We aren’t black, but what he says checks out. Suburban schools go after kids that are different. Whether it’s racial or other aspects. Those schools are discriminatory
One of the most absolutely perfect interviews. And brilliant work to discuss
Thank you for opening my heart and mind to this issue. Inequality and disrespect infect our society like mycelium underground. One is valuable and the other needs eradication or transformation.❤
As a current resident of Gwinnett, i can relate. 10 yrs ago when we moved out here the school tried to push our daughter into an IDP/Spec Ed. No meetings or assessments. Just a random form. I'm well versed and advocated for my daughter. Top of the class, wall flower but put her in Special Ed? The town has grown and is much more integrated now. Suddenly this practice is no longer prevalent. Racism isn't always with a snarl. Sometimes it is lowered expectations and heightened bias
Having pretty communities with tons of rules and regulations costs lots of money. Also, Americans build infrastructure at top dollar, but with the cheapest materials that usually have a 25 year lifespan, hence the ponzi element. While I agree with some of what the author is saying, until you make the correct and appropriate investments into our children, you aren't going to change anything, no matter how much welfare or assistance you give people. And in order to have more social benefits, we would have to reduce spending significantly on the Fed Gov and increase taxes on some people. Nothing is going to change imo and these issues will continue to metastasize for any number of reasons. Gloomy...
The suburbs were created after WW2 in part to cut down on urban organizing and activism that might threaten the power elite. After WW2 Communism was gaining footholds all over Europe and S. America, almost always led by urbanite intellectual. Getting workers away from the central city, occupied with lawn care, becoming property owners, was very politically beneficial for conservativism in America and continued to be. Spiro Agnew was dubbed the first suburban political and relied on fear of crime, fear of black politics.
Never thought about it this way but you’re absolutely right. Have any lit recs that touch on this anti-organizing angle of suburban development?
I have read some serious people claim developers promoted suburbs and LAWNS to government and corporations as being good for a more docile population. Interestingly, Muslim Brothers’ sorta founder Sayyid Qutb bitterly criticized American society from his time living here as obsessed with lawn care...among other critiques.
One of many left wing takes on the suburbs....
No, it's a historical FACT. Provable or disprovalbe with historical evidence. If you have that, put up. Name calling is not an argument.@@delftfietser
So "left wing" is name calling but "conservative" isn't? Both of those are legitimate political terms. Perhaps I should have used progressive liberal. Even so, to think that the political left has the view of truth on the suburbs is intolerant and blinkered.
I did not need a Priest on my side to behave properly. Saying to my Mother "The teacher does not like me" - never flew in my family. I am 56 now.
Living in the suburbs is a huge inconvenience. There is no stores to walk to. To many roads and cars. Now we have these huge trucks that the average suburban family now owns. Nothing is within walking distance. No one is walking or out and about. You have to get in your vehicle to drive to any store. These suburbs are non walkable. It sucks.
There is a commonality in the experience of so many workers in my home state of CA. Many of us grew up in smaller towns . Once we graduated high school we sought higher paying jobs or education in major urban centers where salaries were higher and universities promised degrees that guaranteed home ownership and a middle class lifestyle of sorts . Real estate developers saw this trend and built more homes in our former small towns . But they didn’t invest in improving infrastructure, financial centers , jobs, wages , or social structure or education. Housing went up , but education levels dropped . The people who later moved to those small towns , were now mid-sized cities where poverty was expanding and because of lack of education and infrastructure, crime and violence increased leading to what we can now refer to as ‘trickle down suburban decay’ . They built it that way for a reason . It increases the tax base so that the money players can take their profits . But decreases their influence on actual policies that lead to better educated individuals. A higher standard of living . A safer community with access to decent wages within a reasonable commute . Capitalism is built on the dead finances of the underclass and undereducated.
A neighborhood is only as good as the culture of the people who live there. Places live or die by the people, and not anything else.
Following WWII, the pressure for new housing was enormous because Americans were starting to have babies again. My parents, for instance, for a time lived with their three children in a small trailer on campus while my father finished his college education on the GI Bill. They later lived in a converted chicken coop before moving to a small house in a modest suburban development.
American suburban development incorporated racial injustice from the start. It had to. That's because post-war federal legislation like the GI Bill, the VA (cheap home loans, ), etc. could not have been passed without support from southern Democrats, who made passing them conditional on Black Americans being excluded.
Southern Democratic votes were necessary because Republicans, as the representatives of Big Business, had no interest in helping working class Americans. (And remember, at that time most Americans were working class, American society becoming predominantly middle class only with the economic boom of the fifties and sixties.)
That was factually a private institutional finance and government creation. A factual plan drawn up in the late 1930’s that was instituted on a national level after the war. Our government created the flow of money through our civilization, as a “jobs program” for all the men returning from the war. Fact.
Another lie that is spread by media is that interstates were for our military. Not true.
What are interstates factual function now? You see, railroads didn’t employ enough people shipping the goods of America. Automobiles and trucking industry became a government jobs program, too.
If you had gone to the world’s fair in 1938, the government display was our future world. A miniature of our modern cities planned through financing (massive debt) was on display, sky scrapers, interstates with cloverleafs, suburbs, strip malls, parks, the whole thing we see connected by interstates, sea to shining sea. A 1930’s private institutional finance and government conjoined plan. You can read all about our western finance and government plan, right down to the globalization, shipping the manufacturing to China. Our government opened China up for our finance to globalize, a plan well on it’s way, decades before Nixon pulled the plug and finance gave us nationalized credit in every form so finance can get all the wealth out of the United States for their “global liquidity” that is the shipping container finance world on steroids we live in. According to finance, “the purpose of the United States is to provide global liquidity,” stated by the IMF every quarter. That is what we are, a credit industry commodity, in every way they can scheme. Currently we’re down to scrapping money off of “necessities”, and they love controlling food water and our deteriorating health, by design. Never forget this fact! Finance is not our friend, they are deliberately making the United States population sick, and then “treating” the symptoms, everything finance does is patented for profit, from your food, viruses, and stressful life, to your healthcare treating your sick bodies and minds. None of this is coincidence. When it’s patented, it’s all by design.
“White Flight,” by historian Kevin Kruse is all about these dynamics in Atlanta, where I was born. It’s really sad to learn - and watch over time - just how low unhappy humans will go to ruin others ppl’s lives, and for GENERATIONS. They teach their progeny to perpetuate the same bs behavior and then blame it on the abused.
This country was built on abuse. I hope more ppl devote some of their time to being part of making these things better
Atlanta??? You mean where wealthy blacks even move away from the crime infested city?? That Atlanta???
These are the types of neighbourhoods where nobody knows any of their neighbours. They are likely to call 911 if they see someone walking down the street.
If one person one car wasn’t SOOOO heavily subsidized...we wouldn't have suburbs
That too is an important point, not raised in this video. Not having good public transit meant people had to own cars, and if you need one (or two or three...) then why live in a city since they're subsidizing roads and highways for the upwardly-mobile white folks to get away?
Suburbs are single use. They’re only for upper middle class families to live in. There’s no high paying jobs so you have to commute long distances to afford living there. Young singles wouldn’t benefit from living there. Empty nesters don’t benefit from living there. Early career workers don’t benefit from being there. There is lots of space to maintain and not enough tax revenue to pay for it.
Years ago, I read communities like Yuppies because they paid taxes and didn't ask for many community services.
The one I grew up in was all lower class. Factory workers did not want their kids to grow up in apartments.
Single use - yes. What we’re talking about as “normal” was a unique economic phenomenon. Consumerism was possible by inexpensive energy and demographics.
Nah the suburbs built in the 40s-70s were truly for middle income/working class people, including racial minorities. It is a product of the reactionary policy of the past 40 years that has destroyed the livability of suburbs for all but the wealthiest working class
@@LGrian Guess you missed the story of redlining and segregation.
Oh wow - this is interesting! i never would have connected these dots, but it sure sounds about right. Can't wait to read it - thank you!