The Hundred-Tonne Robots That Help Keep New Zealand Running
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- The Ports of Auckland are automating their straddle carriers, which might not seem like much: until you phrase it as "hundred-tonne autonomous robots guided by nanosecond-precision tracking".
More about the Ports of Auckland: www.poal.co.nz/
Edited by Michelle Martin / @onthecrux
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An update, three years later: the automation project has been shelved. It turns out there are some things that humans are still better at! www.nzherald.co.nz/business/65m-write-off-port-of-auckland-dumps-container-terminal-automation-project/YPWYDI5G5RTRHMJWK2ZBR564WI/
yay!
It’s amazing how you comeback and provide new information on videos that are old! Thank you for your dedication to telling the facts and your commitment to your audience :)
xD
Ouch! :(
Your commitment to updating old videos is fantastic, it's *so* good in fact that a video covering your corrections to past videos would, at this point, be genuinely very interesting to me, particularly if it went into a little depth as to *why* things changed
It's been about four years since I did a video on containerization! So when Auckland Port asked "do you want to film our giant robots", I figured it was a good time to revisit the subject.
okay
K
make sure you enjoy your time there! :)
City: Hey Tom come over
Tom Scott: Sorry, my filming schedule is busy and you're in New Zealand
City: I have giant robots
Tom Scott: Say no more.
Ok, cool
I've always loved your zero filler approach to UA-cam videos, Mr. Scott.
I can think of almost no other content creators who resist the push to add intro sequences and subscription reminders and patreon pleas and on and on.
I never feel like my time is being wasted, watching a Tom Scott video.
@@AricBolf How do you delete them?
So true, if someone uses an intro I hope it's exactly 10 seconds long so I can skip it instantly with one key. People say you need an intro to be recognisable but funnily enough the creators I find best (and are also rather successful) don't have one.
@@HalcyonVoid You press thumbs up again, cancelling the original thumbs up. Thumbs down also deletes your "like" but it specifically tells youtube that you did not like the vid, which might affect you recommendations.
@@AricBolf I very rarely like a video on UA-cam. Like I watch UA-cam all day and I like maybe 5 videos a week. Didn't feel any bias towards that content tbh but maybe because it's just so much I watch >.>
that's why we all love him sooo much... :) if all youtubers could learn to skip boooring intro like that, would love them too. it's not much time wasted, it's more that feeling that i'm underestimated when told unnecessary things before interesting things, and reminders.
Welcome to the latest episode of 'Cool places Tom Scott gets to visit'.
When I grow up, I want to be Tom Scott
The Port has an open day every year where they open the doors and show people around. There's face painting and the like for the kids too, it's a real family fun day.
@@obliviousotterI Better start collecting those red shirts then
Sometimes I get really jealous and depressed thinking about the coolness. Remind myself it's both talent and lots of luck.
@@MaxMckayful And hard work
“It’s a bit like having open heart surgery while you’re still playing tennis”
Reassuring!
I remember it well. What a great day that was...
But who was playing tennis the person having the surgery or the person performing it?
or were they playing each other?
@@kairon156 heart surgery, but two guys playing tennis in place of a pacemaker
@@theshuman100 As long as they know how to keep a rhythm.
"It's a bit like trying to play a game of Jenga whilst being sucked in to a black hole." Another equally plausible analogy for them to use
spreading the wear like they do is really smart, and shows some things are just much more efficient with robots
However it does have a downside. It's like shuffling the wheels on your car. It means they don't bald as quickly, but when you do need to replace them, you need to fork out for 4/5 new tires (depending on if your spare is a proper one or not!). When repair work needs to be done, they'll have to fix things on a much larger scale than before, possibly shutting down huge parts of the dock.
@@andymcl92 replacing large-ish parts of the asphalt is still probably more efficient than having to fix potholes all the time.
I agree. It's just that there is a delicate balancing act between doing repairs less often and making those repairs too big so that they cause large-scale disruptions. (I could probably have worded that better in my initial reply :p ) A stitch in time saves nine, sorta thing...
@@andymcl92 It is much easier to close an entire company once every 10 year for a month than to close a vital part every other day.
Yes!
Sometimes I can't believe we haven't automatized everything yet. Robots can do a lot of things consistently with negligeable error.
I swear to god every week it's like a game of "Where in the World is Tom Scott"
"Around The World in 8 Days?"
Tom Scott is secretly preventing the secret organization that raised him from stealing priceless historical artifacts in-between videos.
@@Olivman7
Hey when in Rome… shoot videos for your monetize UA-cam channel. 😏
He's been in NZ for the last 3 vids.
Where in the world is carmen sandiago?
Tom: "they are accurate down to the nanosecond"
a few seconds later: a german accent appears
how stereotypical ;3c
Locata is an Australian Company BTW... :)
Ve know exactly vere you are, down to the centimetre. Resistance ist futile.
@@gcewing Every German is aware of the fact that we can't pronounce the "th" sound correctly. But we all don't onow that we can't even do the english "w" :(( I can't do it properly either.
@@bastscho If you live close to the border, it's like you were trying to pronounce the Polish "Ł" if that's any help :P More seriously, it's close to the german "u", but you kind of pull your lips back if that makes any sense?
@@MaskedDeath_ My American Exchange students showed it to me once, but I didn't really try to properly change it. It's a really bad habit. To pronounce the English "W", you basically shape your mouth like you are pronouncing an "O", but then make the "W", but without closing your mouth. Then it works kinda....
I should try to finally fix my english.
New Zealand: WE MADE A TRACTOR TANK
Also New Zealand: WE MADE A SEMI-AUTOMATIC PORT
I'm not sure whether to take "semi-automatic port" as some sort of USA-like guarded marine facility; or a heavily armed, finely aged, wine.
the Bob Semple tank is an embarrassment to New Zealand
such a brutal weapon of war should never have been devised
@@justmerc1642 The Bob Semple tank is proof that Arkhan Land is a distant son of New Zealand.
The bob semple tank was so effective at scaring the enemy that it never saw combat due to the enemy surrendering.
@@Asiliea It's New Zealand, it's gonna be a wine
0:34 I'm watching this right now from the tall building in the middle with the toilet seat cover
Cool! The architects must really like white toilet seats!
Never thought of that description for the Vero building. When I was younger, the Sky Tower and Vero building were the most interesting buildings for me when coming in on the Northwestern Motorway. The Vero building more than the Sky Tower.
@Alvinsland2 On a lunch break also...I hope :)
Do you get the harbour view or the city view
@@ryansalle3847 That high up in Auckland in our little islands? There's not that much difference. Can almost always see some ocean in some direction eventually
A few years ago I called it saying "This guy is the next Attenborough". I'm standing by it.
Didn't Attenborough specialise in the "Nature Observation/Wildlife" genre of documentaries though?
@@theharbingerofconflation Tom Scott is Engineering and Technology Attenborough
I wouldn't stand by it, completely different fields.
Ok, for the pedants out there: I meant the attaining of level of renown in the field rather than subject speciality. Hope that makes 3 people’s world better.
Here we see the shy automated crane in its natural environment, gently lifting containers. Its only habitat on earth is right here in Auckland harbour.
I've built and programmed robots that do very similar tasks (albeit using the line-following method), but there were never any consequences if I got it wrong. 100 tonnes comes with a lot of consequences. I'm genuinely intimidated by these things.
The auto straddle did kill a young ground worker and shutt all this down for months near the end of 2020 crippling imports
@@wordzmyth I have looked everywhere and cannot find an article that's says the auto-straddle killed anyone. Can you link it please?
@@NarNarHD Thats because it never happened.
@@wordzmyth source: Just trust me bro
How can apply sts operator
My Grandad used to be the head engineer for the straddle carriers in Wellington. Something you might be able to guess is that the carriers are very top heavy. Once, somebody tried to turn a corner a little too tightly, with a little too strong wind, and the whole carrier went sideways!
Great video! But one thing, they don't triangulate, they trilaterate their position.
Triangulation is when measuring angles, and trilateration is ehen measuring distances :)
Krep on the good work :D
You can really sense the pride of accomplishment in the people you interviewed.
> unable to reclaim more land
[LAUGH IN DUTCH]
I think they mean for environmental reasons
@@Soken50 nope, it's a purely environmental constraint. They've repeatedly applied for permits to expand, but haven't been allowed.
Yup, environmental -iirc yachting/sport facilities, stadiums, hotels, cruise ship terminals and port expansions have been turned down in recent years.
also NZ's GDP per capita is $43k and Netherland's is $48K -there are very similar, and the Netherland's government (as a % of GDP) has twice the debt that NZ has.
The justification for not letting them expand is "environmental" but what that means is that people think a bigger port would be ugly, it's not because it would threaten wildlife or something.
Oliver it's because they have to apply for a resource consent (as per the Resource Management Act) to build out any further, which would mean consulting the local iwi of Auckland area (Maori), and they would probably decline it for it would impede on their customary right to the foreshore and seabed etc....
One of the coolest videos you’ve done so far! The little boy in me is very excited! You know, the one that collected Caterpillar/Pay&Brinck brochures and drew excavators and rockets in every school book! 😜
One of the BEST videos, not coolest.
Oh hey I had no idea you were a tom scott fan anders!
Why is there a little boy in you??? 😱
I live like half an hour from this place.
Never thought something this nerdy and cool was right in my own back yard
Tom, you really need to be a BBC presenter. They are missing the boat if they are not banging down your door.
He's too white for the BBC.
@@ragnkja Money?
Our friend @@Mortizul misses the days when white people were the majority in everything 🙄
Mort was okay with seeing an Indian lady every now and again, but _three?!_ That's pushing it.
@@Jesse__HI'd prefer not to see ay at all.
@@Mortizul Not helping your case there, mate
I just finished watching The Wire season 2, I know exactly what's happening here
Longshoremen are routing a stolen police surveillance van to yet another port? 😁
I recently finished watching the entire show. Hopefully with covid 19, people coming from greece won't be coming
Of course there’s nothing but ocean. Why else would people forget to draw New Zealand on a map?
r/MapsWithoutNZ
I didn't realise it was meant to be there...
Well there's the fact that Australia, and by extension New Zealand, don't exist, according to some flat earthers. Why would you draw something that doesn't exist on a map? 😋
@@blindleader42 I thought flat earthers just believed that science was wrong. What's the point of denying the existence of an entire continent?
@@elvis_mello
What's the point of any of their delusions? Not all FEs believe Austrialia doesn't exist. That's just an example of the many answers they pull out of their asses when rational objection is made to their claims. The reason for the Australia thing is probably that some thought denying the existence of the Southern hemisphere saved their "theory" from astronomical objections.
Remember when you threw 2 drums and a cymbal off a cliff?
And then did a park bench explaining it?
This is easily one of the coolest automated systems I've ever heard of, and that localize GPS system is absolutely incredible!
3:05 It's called "trilateration"! Triangulation is a different technique altogether.
Then what is triangulation?
@@jonavanderpal It's when you look at three points whose positions you know (usually mountains when you're hiking, radio towers when using a device); you calculate the angles between these points from your POV; and you use the angles to calculate your position.
Trilateration is based on your distance from the points instead.
@@Olivman7 Thanks for the explanation!
Tom, you really have some of the most interesting presentation and editing on topics I would never have been interested in and you make it so incredibly enjoyable! Thank you for that!
Absolutely, exactly this. +1
YEEEEEES!
Everytime you upload new video it makes my day.
Sad
@@NUFCOfficial Hey! You try working in customer support and being yelled at all day.
@@Yurivw Should've worked hard at school
@@NUFCOfficial I am working hard at school, thats why I've got such a shitty job :D
You're so lucky to have this career of travelling all over the world and interviewing interesting people and getting footage of really unusual things! I know you've worked really hard to get to where you are now, fair play to you!
Quick Pedantic Point: Using the term GPS is like calling a vacuum cleaner a hoover, it's one of many GNSS's, Global Navigation Satellite Systems. they could also use GLONASS, and they've probably got a okay Beidou coverage there. Amazing video :D
So GPS is not a global positioning system?
@@krashd Yes, in the same way GLONASS, Beidou, and Galileo are all global position systems. The problem is when you use the acronym GPS, which refers specifically to the US Air Force's constellation. This wasn't an issue for many years when it was the only available working constellation, but now as more and more come into the market, both global and local, the collective name GNSS has become commonplace in industry.
But of course, you're free to call it whatever you want, I'm not the language police :D
Of course there would be a German engineer involved
Konecranes is from Finland. Yay I'm from Finland. Now I can be proud of myself.
@@aaleh_04 and molotovs lul
@@aaleh_04 but the engine has mercedes plastic caps xP
really interesting system, no matter where its from^^
@@johnuferbach9166 The LIDAR sensor they use is from Sick, a German producer of industrial sensor technology.
But that doesn't actually mean much, such projects usually have components from all over the world.
Ja natürlich, Herr Brückman!
I love explaining to people about the time domain and how much we have mastered it versus other domains. Light doesn't seem so fast when it only goes a foot in one nanosecond, yet nanosecond regime science can be achieved on your kitchen table with a homebrewed nitrogen laser! I have an old 1980s oscilloscope which will handily measure nanosecond pulses. But we struggle to measure humidity to a precision greater than 3 - 5 percent!
This is the kind of programm I loved to watch on TV as a kid. You make me feel a bit like a kid again, Tom! Loved it!
dude this is so cool i work for a company that uses this same tech and operating system but for smaller reach trucks. this stuff is just wow we live in the future
Nice to see a Finnish company representing something new in a big port.
I remember those machines (mainly because of that particular GTA V mission) but to think have a bunch of them running on their own is scary yet enthralling.
Another step closer to inventing skynet I suppose
That laser sensor for stopping is the coolest part of the video in my opinion. Super awesome!
Video Suggestion: How the Florida Keys Get Fresh Water Across Dozens of Islands (Keys) and Bridges (Including the famous 7 Mile Bridge)... Plus, you can go to the Florida Keys and Key West, which is awesome.
Key west is aight, but definatly stop at bahia honda (its a state park two up from big pine) and/or go snorkel a reef while youre there. Its amazing
The whole overseas highway and its history would be a great topic. The electric grid must also be a great work of engineering because it must span so many water channels and still be resistant to Category 5 hurricanes!
Zac I agree with Bahia Honda for snorkeling/scuba, but when making a suggestion to a non-American, I thought mentioning the most well-known key was the way to go.
There's also the Hemingway House and all the 6-toed Hemingway cats. Honestly there's a good amount here in Florida you can make a video about, while making a trip of it.
Tom, I stumbled across your channel via Objectivity and am binge-watching and liking the heck out of all of it. What a great find.
Hard to know where exactly to say how much I've enjoyed your stuff, but as this is a recent upload (and as I've just watched the rest of this series) here seems as good as anywhere.
All of your stuff I've watched so far just resonates somehow.
Fun, entertaining, well produced, intelligent, informative, surprising.. are only some of the words I considered using here.
And now I have.
Mystery (especially mysterious) biscuits to you, sir!
It’s cool seeing you able to revisit topics on your channel. I’d love to see you revisit some other old topics as well!
It's been almost 10 years since the two drums and a cymbal video!
I like the “shuffling” maneuvering tactic. Every time I fix a gravel driveway, I implore the people who drive there “PLEASE DON’T drive in the same ruts all the time… "
Really interesting! Glad to know that humans aren't obsolete yet. Maybe this will help put New Zealand on the map, as cartographers have a habit (Hobbit?) of leaving NZ out.
I don't know if you're from New Zealand but by the sounds of it, you aren't.
Literally, no one in NZ talks about the Hobbit and we get sick of every foreigner talking about it. It's not even a good movie.
@@putridvomit People do get obsessed with certain things huh.
Then again it seems out of proportion.
I could point to a dozen different locations in Australia that I've recognised from films, but it gets old if that's all anyone talks about...
I'm from New Zealand and love the hobbit
0:50 "When you have to get over the fact that you can't just keep reclaiming land." So many leaders must totally agree with you. The most relatable thing for a small number of people.
Not to diminish the work they have done in Auckland, but (to my knowledge) the CTA in the port of Hamburg operates completely autonomous with robots.
So does Rotterdam, afaik.
*CTA (Container Terminal Altenwerder)
I have just looked it up on wikipedia. They do have autonomous vehicles. However, from what I have seen in that article, a difference to Auckland might be that they don't have autonomous stacking vehicles. The Altenwerder vehicles don't pick up the container from the ground. They are autonomous lorries that get loaded by a (still human controlled) crane.
working completely with robots is often easier than having robots and people interact though.
@NikolausUndRupprecht CTA has an automated stacking system which uses automatic cranes. Only the cranes that place the containers on the ships are not automated.
Well, they should've contacted Tom Scott. ;-)
Tom, thank you so much for this amazing channel. Your content is always top notch. You're able to tell a story and teach, all in just a few minutes. I love learning about all these places, people, and engineering in places I will probably never get to see in person. Thank you!
I return to this video 3 years later to say, they've had to scrap the robots.
Love your approach! Respectful of my time. Concise, no filler or duplication. Tight scripts &editing. Excellent.
This system has been announced as abandoned as it doesnt work.... Its cost them over 65million in the last 8 years of it breaking down and just plain now working
I'm sure not enough people mention it but I really appreciate the subtitles on each video you do. Thanks Tom Scott!!
Isn't that the crane I drove in GTA V?
kind of but then the yellow versions.
These ones are automated
That mission was ass
Iknew I wasnt the only one
I drive past this port on the way to work and had no idea some of those were automated. Really enjoying your NZ coverage.
Welp, not anymore.
Moving the containers to prevent wear and tear on the surface :) just like pixel shifting to prevent burn in :)
Love how all the automated carriers are sparkling in their blue coats whilst the human-controlled carriers look like they could do with a good clean and brush-up!! :)
Tom to shipyards is similar to WendoverProductions to airlines
Wow this is incredible
3:18 *German accent intensifies*
of course his name is Klaus
@@nicolacornolti7796 *Guenther or Ruediger
No, NZ dialect.
Erkin Alp Güney No, that guy is German, Swiss or Austrian mate
@@erkinalp The guy at 3:18, not the others.
The end of 2020 after a auto straddle killed a young worker these were shut down leaving Auckland with container ships unable to unload for months. The nearest cities didn't have enough capacity. The manual drivers had been fired so they couldn't go back to people driving. My friend worked at port and everybody was so sad. Lots of things missing from shops and industry just getting back to normal months later.
Pros doing pro stuff, there is a lot to learn, everywhere, from everyone.
So happy to see my country getting some Tom Scott love! Wish I could meet you!
This video feels like a joke; like something that's made to simulate the types of things we'll be talking about in the future.
But it's not a joke, this type of automation is happening right now, and it's awesome.
tell that to the people who used to operate those
tell that to the people who used to light street lamps, getting keep rats out of city, etc. etc. stfu
@@1Hawk2Hawks you mean the workforce that was aging and not getting replaced because younger people got better educations & built robots to replace those dangerous tedious jobs? Those people?
@Epic Gaming Party All well and good but current trends are that jobs are being automated and replaced with... Nothing.
Don't get me wrong, we won't run out of jobs any time in the forseeable future. Probably not even in a century or two, but the list of things that have been automated or will be shortly is starting to push against the boundaries of what's possible for humans to do.
A list of things that are already automated right now:
- Some aspects of manufacturing
- Certain tasks in mines
- Some trains
- semi-automated checkouts in shops.
Things that are on the horizon in the near future
- nearly all transportation jobs.
- many retail jobs
- Aged care/care jobs
- lower skilled medical jobs
- the bulk of computer programming tasks
- many additional aspects of manufacturing
- Design
- Art (arguable given the nature of art, but there's definitely signs it could happen)
- music production (see above)
- Game development (also see above)
- farming
- construction
- at some elements of the legal profession.
- warfare
and many others besides.
The list of things that replace these jobs really isn't very long, and it's becoming increasingly tenous, because there is very little territory left that ISN'T being encroached upon by AI and Automation.
We're some way off from full automation (decades to centuries), but the signs of more jobs being lost than gained definitely seem to be there.
Keep in mind that you don't have to lose EVERY job in the world to create a massive global catastrophe for the majority of humans on the planet.
Losing as little as 35% of the currently available jobs, could, without massive cultural and societal changes, cause an utter disaster.
Felixstowe is now working on remote control quay cranes, and now taking delivery of semi automatic yard cranes.
I for one welcome our impending robot overlords.
This is so awesome. I could watch an hour, or a whole series of this.
BattleBots: Country Edition
This channel is so informative. I learn something new in every video. Great work Tom and team.
This automation project has been scrapped :( writing off the expense, existing autonomous cranes have been converted to manual :(
So exciting to see you in my home town, after years of watching you in the UK!
It's a cool system of robots, but there is one thing I don't understand.
A lot of ports around the world use exactly the same or very similar systems for years?
what's your question?
@@alexdaland 3:49
But they didn't invite Tom Scott to visit.
Tom this is one of the coolest videos you've ever done, thank you!
No One :
Tom Scott : (Travels halfway across the world to make a UA-cam video)
Remids me of hamburg, where the way from the container to the lines of containers is automated completely, aswell as the coal and ore cranes and storing systems that are fully automated.
With the power of robots, New Zealand can now give the emus a run for their money. Australia belongs to the kiwis
The emus aren't on Australia's side though. There was a war. The emus won. Never forget.
This is one of the coolest uses of robots I’ve seen! Thanks for sharing!
OMG The Harbour Guy also has red T shirt
The Student Official I love commenting twice
I love commenting twice
And it has 3 balls on it... And his name is Ball 😵
Thanks for the preview. I'm getting the engineer's tour of these things in a few weeks.
I'm torn. It's an amazing feat, but how many jobs got lost?
Jobs are a waste of time, we already spend one third of our lives asleep and then another third at a job, do some of you really want that to go on forever? We aren't bees, we are humans.
@@krashd If it wasn't for that stupid thing called money, I would agree. The harsh truth, for me (I'm no hunter or farmer) is, food costs money. I'm not worried that it's going to be forever. We humans have a timelimit, just like bees.
I remember always being fascinated with those big blue cranes when I was younger and living in Auckland
And in 2022 this project was written off at a cost of 65 million dollars to the tax payers. The machines are getting converted to human operated and the CEO who made the decision to invest in this project is currently facing court proceedings for Industrial Manslaughter for providing an unsafe work environment causing the death of an employee.
It's amazing how interconnected our world is. The software for those carriers is written in Finland. (Full disclosure: I work for the company that does this.) The carriers themselves are built from parts from all around the world and end up being used in the most remote places, quite literally on the opposite side of the world.
i just hope it's not python
If i were rich, i will get this crane to drive around just to assert my dominance.
I enjoy Tom, His success makes me happy, not enough, it will happen.
This is unrelated but there are too many potholes in UK
I used to live in a flat by Grafton Gully, could see the whole operation from our living room window. Always thought they were an ugly old sight against the backdrop of our lovely Waitemata Harbour. Knowing they're fully automated though, makes them seem a lot cooler.
I hope they ironically gave the straddle-carriers Hobbit names...
This very much reminds me of how Amazon manages their distribution centres. I worked in one 2 years ago, and was in constant view of the little robots, filling those cages that get picked up and moved around the floors. It would require so much more space and time for a human to do that.
New Zealand the Canada of Australia
"New Zealand. Australia's Australia." John Oliver
You have top notch quality videos, please never stop :)
Has interview with new Zealand port staff.
Encounters a German.
Tom, please do a meet up in Auckland! I keep checking your twitter to see if you mentioned one, and I’d really like to see you! It’s a rare chance to have someone like you actually visit our wonderful country!
_If you look at the globe of the earth in almost all directions, there is nothing but ocean_ - Tom Scott on New Zealand
So that means Australia doesn't exist
Jetlite *almost*
'in *almost* all directions'
"MapsWithoutAustralia"
And it's still over 1000 miles.
Tom knows about the “conspiracy”.
Shut it down!
That reminds me of a somewhat similar system on Ust'-Luga railway yard in Russia, where unmanned heavy diesel shunters perform all kinds of train operations within the station. So technically this would make for a few thousand tonne robots (if counting the train), and if not, the ТЭМ7А locos themselves weigh 180-tonnes.
Nice try, Tom. This is just that one GTA V story mission.
They are actually not autonomous, but linked to the consoles of Gta V players, who then manually controll them, unknowingly
No wonder that part felt like work.
I write some of the software that handles scheduling and equipment control for this, I'm glad so many people think its cool!
Thry flopped. 65 million $ wasted.
The Thunderbirds theme tune played in my head throughout this video.
Oh come on, tom
we all know New Zealand doesn't exist!
Very high quality on this video. Looks great.
This technology is incredible -- the fact that it has mystic orbs on it which help track the phase of signals... that's among the most futuristic things I've seen.
Phenomenal episode! Really fascinating and something i'd never usually think about. Absolute belter of a video!
Such a great video as always. Everytime i see a new video from you i just have to watch it.
Come to Albany western Australia! we have so much facinating history. Oldest WA town etc.