I remember attending an arabic course where my tutor taught 99% of everything through writing and speaking in arabic. The problem was, I had no idea what he was saying so while he taught, I would miss key principles and it was just a stressful and confusing environment. I get that it was supposed to create immersion but I genuinely disliked learning it and having a bunch of notes terribly written in arabic that made no sense to me. He always said that after 6 months I would stop scratching my head and it would all make sense but it just seemed like a very off putting way to learn
Idk how your teacher teaches, do they immediately throw you into the deep end? When i did spanish at school, my teacher spoke 90% spanish during class and made concepts very comprehensible using images, body language, paraphrasing, using easier words in general… i guess your teacher forgot one thing, the input should be comprehensible, and also compelling enough to gain interest.
@@poiseblemiramoon6992 very true, after all, quoting Stephen Krashen, "we acquire language through *comprehensible input* in a *low-anxiety environment* ". People keeps forgetting the second key aspect somehow! the OP comment just shows that it is the failure from the teacher's side to provide the best immersion experience.
Immersion has helped me more than anything else. As a language teacher, I will continue to push it as the most important aspect of language learning. Mainstream media never talks about it. It’s not difficult to do it at home. As MIA says, watch native content for a set amount of hours while pausing and heavily studying. Watch content around your level.
This require much time, immersion in listening and watching is good to learn structures and key words and phrases and to reinforce and practice the words that you already know or is trying to learn. I learn much more with text and audio, books and transcription because i notice the patterns and i don't need to revise them in an Anki deck because i only try to learn the words that appears several times, and therefore i sort of have a selection in the words and learn the most used words in a natural and efortless way just because the words that most appears in a language they will be in any content that you consume so it's useless to revise them in SRS if i can learn them only by context, and no, put a phrase in anki is not context.
"Around your level" is the key. But that's not immersion, that's comprehensible input - didn't you even see this video?! There has been a study with students made which showed that they improved their language ability by reading books they understood 98% of. 98%. Graded reader is the magic word. Compared to students who read books they only understood 70 or 50% of they were soooo much faster in reading that they came across much more words while having much more fun at the same time.
You can immerse yourself without paying or joining a cause that does it. You literally just change everything you do to match the language you are learning. Everything in English you would translate into that language. It works, you just have to be dedicated.
@Retog But how do you watch content around your level as a beginner? There has to be some starting point. I feel like that was the point of this video.
Beautifully said. I’m currently living in Germany. Came here on study abroad with next NO german. You learn fast that sitting in your lectures does fuck all for learning the language since it’s all so incomprehensible. After 4.5 months I’m nearing on b1 if not already there, buts that had far more to do with my own self study, which I mostly could have done back in England (although having German Netflix, libraries, and Sympathetic native speakers has been a big help too)
My own experience of learning Chinese just proves this idea. You can listen to native speakers for months and still acquire nothing. That's why it's necessary to find some decent materials and people to talk with.
I learnt it from 0 by immersion. 1st year I struggled with tones but on my 2nd I was already there. On my 3rd I had it already. If you put yourself into it and scape from english speaking environments, you will make it but you must keep a positive attitude (That's the key dude!). Immersion works and its my favourite approach but it only works if you stop the ''buts' and ''ifs'' :) Good luck and don't give up!
Vinny Carmona Immersion works accompanied by other things. My parents have lived in England for over a decade now and can barely speak english even though they get a lot of daily immersion at work etc. For immersion to work you do have to solidify what you’re hearing with other resources.
@@niamhbutler5685 They can only learn the English around them if they are actively listening for hours each day, otherwise it wont work and also they probably operate in their native language at home so they need to put in active effort to learn
PrimeArtOnline - Piano Covers They work in english workplaces with native english speakers, every single day. They also watch a lot of english tv because my younger siblings watch english kids shows. Sure they can understand some things and can have a simple conversation but they are no where near fluent even after living in an english speaking country for nearly 20 years nor do they understand english grammar and how to correctly construct sentences. Simply listening to a language isn’t gonna make you fluent. Most people don’t really have the time to be listening to their target language for hours every day and if they don’t live in a country where their target language is spoken it’s gonna be even harder.
There is a simple solution to comprehension. That is find material that you can read as well as listen to, i.e. audiobooks with text, songs with printed lyrics, radio programs with transcripts. When you read, you can slow down, use a dictionary, or a parallel translated text to get the meaning. Understand the written text, listen while reading, listen without the text, and read the text aloud after listening. I find my oral comprehension has improved this way and I can get more and more benefit from just listening. I have done this for French and I find that I read better and can comprehend radio programs. Par cette mèthode, vous allez ameliorer votre niveau de la langue au fil de temps.
What's great is that you don't need a physical dictionary. Just a online dictionary or translator- google translate for example although it's imperfect. These days with the internet, it's so easy to look up words you don't know in a split second. So as long as you have audio input plus a transcript, you can go from understanding just 20% to 80-90% fairly quickly- because of an online dictionary or translator.
I love immersion from day one for 1 reason; it tells my adhd brain that it is relevant information to retain. I change all my entertainment into the language, I keep it as passive noise in the background when I fiddle with something etc for a few weeks so that my brain thinks this language is now an essential aspect of my environment and it helps my learning disability. I retain better. If I don't make it important for my brain on an instinctual level that hey this is a part of our environment now then almost nothing sticks but because I made it relevant and keep it relevant it sticks with minimal to no effort. The immersion isn't the learning tool though, it just softens the sponge to ready the brain to soak up the information better.
I think I might have it to. I know I'm 100% or 0% into something..no middle ground. I've been watching basically everything in spanish way over my skill level. Comprehensible input is to boring to watch. I watch a lot of tv, UA-cam, movies etc anyway so why not in my target language even if I don't understand? For me it makes me want to learn more so I can understand it better. One thing that helps is if you've seen it before. I've been able to guess a lot of what was said because I've seen it and know the plot. Any parts I find interesting and want to know the dialog I speak it best I can into chat gpt. I find I'm usually 80% on the voice to text so I feel like this helps with my speaking ability too. Imo it is a slower process, but I feel its helping. I do it everyday and more importantly I'm not bored and I'm having fun learning. Edit: I've also been learning italian on the side just 15 mins a day on duolingo. I've noticed when I started to do more immersion in spanish it seemed like it helped with my italian (both languages are similar, italian much harder to speak imo). Before I couldn't say italian phrases, but its gotten a lot easier faster and I haven't been listening to italian.
Before I knew any French I went onto a French immersion camp for 12 days, granted it might have not been the best thing to do from a logical standpoint,but it does make you realise how much you can actually speak with a very small and I mean a very small vocabulary, I came back with a good foothold in the language and it basically gave me the leg up.
This is what I saw all the time. Immersion and studying abroad isn't always great. You can easily drown if your language skills aren't good enough and if you don't put yourself out there and do things you aren't going to learn. You have to interact. You can't expect that you'll just absorb the language by being in the country/surrounded by it in some way.
What follows is a wall of text describing how I learnt 4 languages - 3 quite successfully and 1 much less so...that one was the only one I learnt in full immersion since the beginning. I managed to learn russian faster and better than anybody i met in russia because I had been studying grammar intensely in high school. When I arrived to russia, I couldn't really speak, but my grammar was so advanced that I could grab vocabulary quickly and improve. Also, what helped is that I had put my mind into believing that I was a rockstar at Russian, so it was out of question for me to start my conversations by "i don't speak russian so well, but...". Same thing with both spanish and english. I always convinced myself I could speak them ("fake it till you make it") and that worked. But I never needed any immersion for either of them. I never lived in a spanish or english speaking country. I was doing so well in class that I was always confident in my ability to speak either of them. Now, when it comes to the last language I learnt, I did everything bad. First of all, I learned turkish through russian. I would never advise anybody to make the mistake to start learning a language in a language you don't master! Because I was late in the course (classmates had had over 30h of classes already!) I was already struggling on day one, so my mindset was pretty bad. In order to catch up with the group's level, I started to spend all my free time with Turkish students, who didn't know any russian yet. I was basically in total immersion from day 3. Guess what? I was still the worst student in my class. I got 7h a week of Turkish classes for over half a year, but I could never make a decent sentence, even though I was living with monolingual Turks! Years later, I moved to Turkey and started to speak from day one with everything I remembered. Sadly I got discouraged because everybody was replying back to me with a terrible english (when I was asking very simple questions, such as "how much is this dress?" - 4 euros my dear!" so frustrating). At some point I met the man who would become my boyfriend for years. We'd speak english at first and little by little reverted to Turkish. Guess what now? Still struggling. My comprehension became solid, but my vocabulary was still mediocre. I could essentially not improve my level, because I was continuously using the same vocabulary, and my bf was unconsciously using basic vocabulary. I never dared to learn another language since this experience. Turkish drained me and my self confidence too much. After years living amongst them and in the country, I was still having a hard time building complex sentences. And I guess that's because I was in total immersion so fast, that it had a toll on my learning abilities for the first time. (I was only 20 when I started learning Turkish, so I don't think it had something with ageing) PS) I have lived with dozens of Arabs from different arabic countries for months and months at a time. Then I spent 5 months in Morocco. I have a level zero in arabic. Hearing it all the time never helped me learn even the basics, because I have never sitten down and grabbed a grammar book. Their talking would be nothing more than continuous and undiscernable sounds. I lived in several other countries with zero basics and could learn absolutely nothing.
So I kinda learned English through immersion more or less by accident. I started watching Harry Potter, Pirates of the Caribbean and other movies I'd watched countless times before when I was in 6th grade (= second year of English classes at school). Because I knew these movies so well in German, I understood what was going on without actually understanding the words. I ended up acquiring quite a lot of words and from there, my comprehension skyrocketed. I moved on to sitcoms and after about two years, I was able to comfortably watch shows like criminal minds. Learning grammar at school certainly helped decode phrases but beyond that, I don't feel like English lessons were of much use to me. I'd attribute most of my success to immersion and for the first couple of years, I was rarely at ~90% comprehension. I do feel that it would have been a lot harder to learn through immersion if I hadn't learned grammar at all. It probably would have taken me a long time to just acquire how to use the different past tenses, for example. Mixing theoretical grammar knowledge with immersion seems like a good middle ground.
I think the major problem with obsessing input is "comprehensible" or just a step above your current level is that it makes engaging with the language more difficult and boring than it has to be. I got to an intermediate level in Korean by watching dramas which were way beyond my comprehension level at the time. But engaging freely with content that I found interesting motivated me to push through difficulties, make effort to make the content more comprehensible. On the other hand, I've just started German and the only content I have to work are retellings of children's stories in simple German. It's excruciatingly dull. It honestly reduces my motivation to learn German. For me, the level of interest I have in the content is more important than its comprehensibility.
Yeah totally agree. I think it's best to go to the country when you're a high intermediate, you get the most benefit. You can participate in society more - join groups, go to events and talk to people etc.
Spot-on mate. I'm an university student and went to mainland China for an exchange of half a year to see how far could I get with the language, starting mandarin chinese from a scratch. I did get quite far but it was extremely wearing experience. I completely immersed myself by joining sports clubs etc. with only chinese people. At first it's pretty fun trying to cope with everyday life only using chinese, but I quickly realised that it actually takes time to build a solid vocabulary. So imagine speaking the same sentences over and over again, and usually not understanding anything the other party has to say. Often I felt that I was like a three year old in a body of a 20 year old cuz I couldn't express myself. Anyways, still learning chinese and determined to be fluent one day.
When people mention Immersion, they usually mean "comprehensible enough that you ATLEAST get what is going on/being talked about and optimally, like you said as close to i+1 as possible". The only good that listening to native content whilst you are still a beginner is going to do, is that you get a feel for what the language sounds like+its rythm, but thats it. Immersing yourself in content that u cant understand for sh*t, is other than the few benefits above, the same as listening to random noise. and in the end, if you ever want to become actually good at a language, immersion is the single most important thing u gotta do. But yea, going ham on it too early isnt the way to go about it.
@@beefsteax I have found some good emersion techniques for beginner and yes immersion is still helpful but if you can't find any content for complete beginners then you might want to teach yourself the top 100 words and maybe top 10 phrases and a little bit of basic grammar before immersing with the intent to catch on at all and even then it's still hard to find language content for complete beginners about emersion but beginner immersion is a good way to get the feel of the language but I do have personal experience and the stories of many others not everybody works the same so some people can immerse and be okay especially really young children (-3) because children actually pick up language they take the steps subconsciously to learn by listening looking and repeating There's tons of research if you want to look at it but yes a beginner can immerse and learn that way if you find come content suitable for your language or if you're forced to learn it to survive and do your best to learn like a child
@@beefsteax But asking questions is great it's always good to know why something doesn't work for yourself sometimes it's good to take people's advice when you don't have other options and sometimes it isn't but when you can researching is always great and asking questions just being curious you might naturally learn a lot of simple things so I really do appreciate that seriously Edit: but setting your phone to another language since you're familiar with many application names is it really annoying way to learn new vocab but it can be helpful I really just doing anything familiar and not too difficult in another language but we all work differently
@一本のうんち You can learn advanced words by immersion but it takes way longer than if you study them in an SRS. This is because the more advanced you get, the rarer the words get too. Some words dont even exist outside of classes or very specific websites/articles.
@wentropy -- yeah, that seems likely. Too bad so many beginning or 101-level classes (from my own experiences as well as others') are using immersion style instead of actually instructing true beginners and saving immersion for intermediate and advanced classes. "Hi, you're here to learn (insert language here)? Well, start practicing your conversation in said language. Ta-da! I'm a fantastic teacher!" -__-;...
I totally agree, when I first started learning Chinese I used to listen to broadcast on the radio. It was pointless as understood one word which was shi the verb to be. I often thought that if I was on a desert island with radio with endless batteries , one could spend years and years of listening and still be non the wiser, because you simply don't have a reference point so you could not even infer a meaning to almost anything.
I agree. I currently learn Japanese through immersion now, but I didn't see much benefit from it until I had memorized hundreds of words with Anki and watched a bunch of beginner comprehensible input videos. Native Input is sometimes helpful for beginners to help train the ear a bit, but most people are getting nearly zero comprehensible input from native level material. The more I've researched how language learning works, the more I've become confident that "just listening" to the language is really not a effective way to learn it. There needs to be some level of active engagement with the language to learn something substantial from the input. People don't start "just learning from context" until they are in the late intermediate stages of learning a language at best. It takes a lot of effort to actively to memorize words in the early stages to make progress. That's just inherently part of language learning process that everyone does in their own way. I'm also convinced that people can't just "figure out" a language just from hearing it a lot. Languages are really complex at times and our brains need some kind of context to connect new language to concepts we already understand. You can't just stare at a bunch of puzzle pieces and magically know how they fit together, we have to slowly experiment with pieces to build out our knowledge base little by little. Some pieces with be left on their own for a while until they finally can be joined to the rest of the puzzle. Some of the old school "hardcore" language learners did the Mass Input method because there wasn't much information on effective self study methods back even 15 years ago. They were just making it up as they went and it happened to work out for them through sheer determination. Today, a more effective method is not necessarily to focus on Mass Immersion, but to focus on actively engaging with content that is almost comprehensible to your level. I see it as Prime, Review, Recall. Seeing a word for the first time is Priming, seeing it again in Anki is Review, and seeing it during immersion is Recall. It takes time to prime, review, and recall thousands of words in a language, much less also put together the grammar too. That's where a lot of these "learn _____ in 6 months" videos confuse people. The content creators say things like "learn 50 new words a day and you'll know as many words as native speakers". People will be primed for 9,000 words, but they'll probably barely be able to recall like 200 of those in a real life situation until they spend years properly reviewing and recalling them daily. Human brains can't just dump in endless amounts of data and remember everything just because we want to learn fast. Learning fast isn't about dumping language into our heads, it's about using effective methods that reinforce small bits of language everyday. Forgetting and relearning takes way more time than making sure to get those words sunk deep into our subconscious mind the first time. Well known UA-camrs like MattvsJapan and Xiaomanyc were very vocal early on that they spent ungodly amounts of time using tools like Anki when they were learning Japanese and Mandarin respectively. The narrative got shifted to "White Guy learned Japanese by just watching anime" or "White guy learned Mandarin by just talking with the locals". The title of "White guy spent 6 hours a day reviewing Anki cards and looking up words in TV shows" isn't quite as eye catching. Matt didn't just immediately start watching anime all day as soon as he started learning Japanese. He spent a lot of time learning all the common Kanji and words first before diving into Japanese media. Xiaomanyc also didn't start learning fluent Mandarin from day one just because he talked with native speakers. He was able to talk well because he studied the language a ton in his free time. The speaking was just a fun way to force himself to actively recall what he has already primed and reviewed. It wasn't the speaking that made him improve, it was just more motivation to keep studying when he saw how he was able to connect to new people through Mandarin.
Nice words dude! I'm a beginer in learned english. Your text gave me a direction in my journey 😂😂 6 months of immersion, my writing is so bad type a homosapiens 😢😂😂😂
+Vinny Carmona People get impatient and say it doesn't work and give up, without waiting for that wonderful snowball effect that takes months, one day it feels like that Matrix scene where Neo says "I know Kung Fu". They haven't downloaded enough information to their brains, bad input. Garbage in, garbage out. Besides, this is just a technique, not the only way to learn languages, some people get bored with it.
I just hate immersion. It doesn't work for me, at all. Why do I speak French and Hebrew so well though? They were taught to me before all this immersion hype, when grammer and rules were explained to me, in English, slowly and alongside the actual learning of the new language. I was never just spoken at in French or Hebrew. I was taught, in English, how to learn a new language, and I did, and both of these langauges still serve me well some 30, 40 and 50 years later. I now live in Barcelona, where the old paradigm of teaching language is gone. It's all immersion here now and while learning Catalan this way may be easier for Spanish and Italian speakers, for native English speakers it totally sucks butt. I fail every exam, can't hear/understand what's being said, yet I can speak some only becasue of Catalan's close relationship to French. I have a propensity for languages, but my 60 year old brain is hard wired for 1970s/80 language learning methods ... slowly, methodically, with purpose and rules to help govern your steps and understand the building blocks. I'll take the old way of teaching a foreeign language any day of the week.
Olly is not saying immersion is bad .Rather he’s making a point that ,for language learners who at a begging level, immersion isn’t the best way of learning. You don’t expect yourself to become proficient in a language just because you managed to surround yourself with an all native environment. Lots of deliberate study needs to be done before that, you have to have a certain level of understanding beforehand.
Good points. I once kept the French radio on for hours every day for years tuned to Radio France Inter when I lived in London. I learnt nothing as far as being able to speak, read or write French. One might thus assume that I had wasted my radio's time by this exercise. I did not waste my own time as I had to clean my quarters, cook, eat and read in this time. It came to pass that i next joined an extramural French language class in London in the afternoons. Wow! I found myself learning, I mean learning, the French tongue at, it seems, supernatural speed and my teacher commented on my ability. Conclusion? The radio for passive listening is not enough. When it is married to an active learning system such as a course of classes it comes into its own. I advise the viewers to combine active with passive learning methods to optimum results. Thank you Radio France Inter! :)
I agree with you. Usually this opinion is met with resistence. Immersion helps, but one must be mindful of it. I've met people who lived in countries for 10+ years and cant form a sentence other than, "thanks" or "another beer please". Simply being there is not enough. . I study Russian and live in Kyiv and its humbling. When youre there, you realize how much you suck, LOL! Being out of an immersed environment, its easier to maintain your confidence.......you don't KNOW you suck until you get onto the streets of Kyiv! But, by the time you get there, maybe you have 5+ years of study under your belt and it wont matter much.
Actually, as far as I've understood in regards to immersion, its far from simply living in the country speaking your desired language, it has to do with using the language actively in every aspect of your life. You read, speak and think in the language, all the time. This is why the technique is hard for a complete beginner, but excellent for someone who understands well enough to start having actual conversations with others
Right on. Immersion by itself is not enough. It is the context that makes all the difference, that provides bridges to building meaning. In the right context, immersion is incredible. Without that context, it is useless.
Agreed in the sense that you need to actively do things like study grammar in the early stages to give you a foundation to build off. After that, I would say immersion works brilliantly as you add layers of words and phrases onto the solid framework of knowledge you already have. I think a purely immersion based approach would take far too long for most people, unless you happen to be in a situation like a child at school where you are literally surrounded by the language all day, every day.
The point you talked about is really valid! Like immersion learning is sure a good way when you really understand the alphabetical phonetics of that particular language.... Immersion for 30 mins a day and 2hrs of serious language learning will probably give good results and ありがとう(Thankyou) for this realistic approach you talked about in this video✌️🙏 Iam learning Japanese😁
I would like to add that some people confuse immersion and intense training. You can go to a full-time school and learn a language at and intense level for weeks, or months, but that's not immersion.
Reading with the help of a dictionary is the fastest way of expanding your vocabulary. Reading also improves the retention level of words in your memory. Bilingual dictionaries are the exact opposite of Total Immersion. They work for adults. Total Immersion does not. Many times a language class would have students from multiple language backgrounds. The easiest thing for the language teachers is to immerse them in his or her language. Unsuspecting students assume that Total Immersion is a language learning method for adults. Modern academia is a self serving entity.
Yes. But. There are different types of immersion. Yes, listening to the radio in incomprehensible Chinese probably won't work very well. But there is a way to do immersion with crutches or training wheels. For example, if instead of the radio, you watched youtube videos with slowed down speech and subtitles. The video provides some context from the action you watch on the screen and the slower speech and subtitles make it easier to understand. That still might be hard for a total beginner. But for an intermediate language learner, it would be great. A total beginner could use some translation, but then quickly switch to an immersion approach that is customized to his level- immersion with training wheels.
I think you’re defining “immersion” in a way that it fits your negative narrative. You’re right that it’s a buzzword, and by critiquing it, you’re getting a lot of clicks/views, so nice logic there! When I think about immersion, I’m thinking about classrooms. In said classrooms, comprehensible input is used as part of the immersion as is scaffolding. Immersion doesn’t automatically make a teacher a good teacher, but it’s certainly key to expose students to the target language as much as possible. Build on to the exposure with props, body language, gestures, pictures, context, etc...
Yeah, I've spent a decent amount of time immersing with native level Japanese this year, but it feels very inefficient, especially when it's pure listening (no subtitles to pause and read/look up). My conclusion for now is that I should use more comprehensible beginner materials like your Storylearning texts or LingQ Mini-Stories for at least a few months, while memorizing at least 1,000+ of the most common words with Anki. Maybe after that, I will be at a level that native-level immersion is more fruitful per time spent.
Uhh I know I’m like 2 years late but when Khaztumoto or ppl like them mention immersion it means comprehensible input now what does that you ask? Well you can watch something like anime and then let’s say the MC points at himself and says 俺 (means I in Japanese) then your brain would naturally pick up that because well the MC is pointing at himself and say the Japanese word for I and actually Steven Krushen (sorry if I misspelled) shows this perfectly in his video he basically described a person’s face in German and even if you don’t know a speck of germen you’re going to pick it up because well it’s input that is comprehensible
If you're learning to swim you start at the low end of the pool. You don't jump in the deep end or you might just drown. Whenever I try immersion by watching Chinese tv shows I feel like I'm drowning in sounds, so much that I cant even make out the words I do know.
Olly, immersion is not controversial. Everyone knows that immersion is on of the best ways to learn as long as you are receiving meaningful input. Even people you have interviewed on this channel have spoken about going to immersion classes and how great they are...maybe you should change title to immersion doesnt work for Olly...
Right, except that “meaningful input” is extraordinarily hard to get for extended periods of time and in most contexts. In most situations people would call “immersion”, there’s very little meaningful input to be found. In my view, the general consensus that “immersion is great” is similar to the view that “children learn best”. Mostly BS, and based on an awful lot of assumptions and failure to define terms. Caveat: When immersion *does* become unbeatable is when you’re at a level where the majority of everyday input you receive is meaningful (as you say), but that doesn’t happen until you’re at a comfortable B1-2 level.
I have to agree. I feel like I wasted far too much time listening to a bunch of content that I don't understand very well. And what do I have to show for it? I can barely speak at all, and I have a very poor understanding of the language overall. Now I just listen to grammar lessons a lot, and only immerse actively. It feels like a much better use of my time.
this video meant a lot to me, mate. much appreciate it. you mentioned both the pros and cons of that method like sitting on the fence and taking no side to defend. amazing. at least, for me, it was useful and educative.
Immersion has rules too. Going to a place where you understand nothing won't help. Immesing in a place where the language you are exposed to is quite comprehensible, is the key. For example, having a friend who tries to make himself understood by pointing, explaining, etc. Read about the natural approach by steven krashen
I once got excited when I thought I had learned a new word from context alone (from nothing but 'immersion'), only to find out that my idea of that word was completely and utterly wrong when I actually looked it up. But from that particular context it seemed very convincing to misinterpret it. Maybe you could learn the words properly if they appeared enough times in different contexts but I can't fathom the time it would take to intake that much immersion content. It's ridiculousness. Even hundreds of hours of anime is not enough to learn more than a few words in Japanese.
i spent from kindergarten to like grade 8 doing half of all my school (split by morning/afternoon) in french and i think it was pretty effective i was fluent almost immediately but i also started when i was 4 which may have provided an advantage and i also know this didn't work for everyone in my school even if it did work for me
Nope Olly, your wrong. You're just plain wrong about immersion being a bad language learning strategy for beginners. This is, after all, how infants acquire language, and is the method used for training Mormon missionaries who go to foreign countries where English is not spoken. And such training is backed up by academics who oversee the whole program. If actual communication is the goal, both the spoken language, and on the receiving end, then language immersion is very practical and gets the job done. Language skills can of course be perfected with other methods once the basic skills are learned, but when you're just starting out, you need to get as wet (via "immersion") with the language as you possibly can.
@@storylearning - Infants are constantly immersed in the language, and they manage to learn it without being specifically taught anything by the adults surrounding them. They of course get corrections along the way when needed, but it isn't entirely necessary. Suffice it to say that even the most illiterate people are still entirely capable of using language, at least the spoken variety, and communicating precisely what they wish. There, did I dumb it down enough for you? "Language immersion" IS actually a real method of accomplishing rather speedy fluency on a rudimentary level. When an adult does not always have teachers available, then learning becomes a far more personal approach, and it can surely be done by completely and constantly surrounding yourself with the language, and frequently practicing everything you learn with specifically native speakers. At some point in time, some people manage to "correct" the native speakers. But the vast majority of us will never become every bit as colloquial as native speakers, although I did indeed know a few such speakers of Spanish. Let's face it - when a native speaker of Spanish honestly says that her gringo husband speaks perfect Spanish, she means it. Such people exist, but they're rather rare. I lived in South America for a few years speaking Spanish full time, I was a Spanish teacher in public schools for a short time, and I have a degree in Spanish. I've lost much of my fluency over the years, but trust me, I know what I'm talking about. I've seen at least a dozen or more channels on UA-cam similar to yours, and it's fair to say most of them are fairly good, including yours. But there's no shortage of pretenders who make me LOL. And I repeat ... Immersion is NOT a bad strategy. It's actually a GREAT strategy. The average "fluent" adult in Spanish actually can't speak as well as the average 12 year old native kid who speaks it fluently, except for a variety of vocabulary words. I for one believe by far the greatest and most amazing skill is a person who speaks a foreign language with virtually no accent whatsoever. Such a thing is a rare gift, and simply cannot be taught. A somewhat less rare gift is being able to easily identify the native speakers, rather than the pretend native speakers. That's what I can do. I have an ear for Spanish, and I can easily distinguish those who are close, but still no cigar. You happen to be almost close, and a little further away from that cigar. Some people gain that ability after living in a foreign country speaking the language absolutely full time. That's what I did. It's sort of like having perfect pitch. So yeah, I know what Spanish is, and I'm familiar with the fake varieties. Even I can be fooled, of course, but it might take quite a hell of a lot to accomplish. Another point which needs to be emphasized is that knowing a language, and the ability to very effectively teach the language, are two entirely different things. Most native speakers of any language have very little skill in teaching their language to non-native speakers unless they're gifted at such. And by the way, I don't have native style pronunciation. Far from it. But I sure as hell know what it is when I hear it from non-native speakers. Some people come 99% to perfection. Having a phonetics class helps that, as well as a class in phonology. I had both.
@@storylearning - How could you be confused? The learning curve is a bit different between adults and children when it comes to learning a language. Adults can comprehend much more, and can ask questions about language, but infants just absorb language without realizing it, nor do they have any mental blocks like many adult learners have. I repeat ... the best way for everyone, infant and adult alike, to learn a language is to be as fully immersed in the language as much as possible. The academic efforts, if they come at all, typically come much later in life.
Keep following Krashen.. he knows what he is talking about. I am teaching my boyfriend Spanish. No textbook.... just comprehensible input type of immersion through picture book, simple commands, simple gestures and pictures and he is making sooo much progress so fast it’s not funny.
The optimal kind of immersion (and language learning for that matter) would probably be an environment where you can interact with and in a physical environment with a native speaker, who gives you feedback on the things you do. Studies have shown that there is a strong connection between linguistic and motoric cortical regions. Learning a language starting with manipulation and navigation in a limited physical environment would probably lay the strongest possible groundwork for a holistic and idiomatic understanding of the language in question. Human language possibly even evolved specifically for the purposes of categorizing motivational content in our environments, and enable us to communicate our findings with each other, to synchronize our motivations and to make sense of the world together. We don't even realize how much of our language is actually rooted on metaphors of environmental manipulation, such as "picking up information" (as if it were something lying on the floor), "finding a way to do something" (the problem is a space you must navigate), we can "move an appointment until next tuesday" (as if appointments were physical objects whose positions we could manipulate). Immersion just by itself, literally being exposed to a lot of input doesn't do anything. It's not only about the messages, it's about their relevance to you (motivational content). You also have to be an active participant in the process, you have to do the interpreting (which demands a lot of brain power). This is the reason you can see those 20-years-in-country expats who don't speak a lick of the local tongue; they never bothered with actually consolidating the input they were given, they just expected sheer "immersion" to carry them through, which is akin to just standing in a swimming pool and expecting that you're going to learn how to swim any minute now if you just stand in the pool long enough.
Very interesting. I think the point about your interaction with the environment is key, and there are parallels in many other aspects of the learning process. “Noticing” for example - a deceptively simple word, and yet one of the most powerful abilities (skills?) to have. In that case, I see that as a kind of “mental interaction” with the language around you - can you dig deep and actively search out the learning opportunities.
One really interesting thing is that motivation is not only related to your proclivity to study, but motivation modulates the entire learning process itself. Motivation and positive attitudes about language learning affect the depth of learning and retention; this is because of the role of the amygdala (often dubbed "the emotion center") which can affect outcomes through dopaminergic modulation (release of dopamine, an important neurotransmitter). That is to say, if you're not keen on studying French, you will literally learn less than if you were keen to do it, all other variables being equal. (Neurobiological Mechanisms of Language Acquisition; Pulvermüller & Schumann 1994)
@@Pakanahymni wow, thank you so much for sharing. Very, very interesting. Topics that I would like to study one day but will probably never become reality...
Immersion works best for me when it comes to language learning because that's when my mind is at ease and able to absorb the most information without much effort. I reached a C1 level in German thanks to years of high school spent in Germany. My German was barely A1 when I came, but there I went to a German school where no one bothered to speak English at all and everything including the "German as a second language" course I attended was taught fully in German. I made rapid progress, wasn't until 2 months that I started to understand everything. "In-country" immersion also works for me. I've never been to an English speaking country but managed to reach C1 only through school plus lots of reading novels, scientific journals and websites, blogging, binge watching movies and vlogs all in English. So I guess it's different for everyone
Wow, from your comment I thought you were a native English speaker haha. I have German family and have wanted to learn for years. I’ve downloaded language apps and the whole nine but have been unsuccessful at my past attempts. I started watching a German show on Netflix called Dark with English subtitles last night (*trigger warning* the opening scene starts with suicide). Off of that one episode alone, I feel like immersion is what will work best for me. Hey, babies have done it for a millennia!
I think the whole immersion thing took off with the Ulpanim system in Israel. But this was as much a matter of practicality as much as ethos. People who were coming to Israel to live came from all parts of the world and had pretty much no languages in common therefore they had to start pretty much from scratch in the target language. Also this was about much more than relocation - this was tied up with resettling as part of the Jewish community. As such this was effective but this is only one circumstance and people's reasons and needs to learn languages are very diverse. So you are correct that, generally speaking, total immersion is completely talked up and overrated in its effectiveness.
"Inmersion" should only be undertaken by ADVANCED students. The popular idea that by changing languages on your cell phone is going to make you proficient in another language is a stretch. All you do with changing the language is vocabulary incrementation, not even a monologue.
I haven't hit 'play' yet, but I'm already glad this vid exists. My so-called 'beginner's' Spanish class threw us into immersion-style on the second week, with an either 3/4ths or 4/4ths in-Spanish textbook, icnr which now, and that was that. Almost zero actual instruction. How was I supposed to "converse in Spanish" when I knew little vocab, no sentence structure, and had barely begun to untangle the rules for ser vs estar vs estoy vs soy etc. etc. yadda yadda?? Wtf was that??! I was so pissed to have already paid when I realized it was not in fact going to get better. (Also, if a '101' entitled class is the lowest level and thus the beginner's starting point of classes for a language at an institute, it should actually *be a beginner's class* not an intermmediate class masquerading as a beginner's class. >}: [ ] aaauurghh!!!)
You're absolutely right about the loneliness of being abroad. We were in Germany for a whole year, during which our 6-year-old boy was at a German school. He hated it, was miserable, learnt no German.
You are a very good coach Olly and you've made loads of great videos. I think that people will have seen yours and other videos but then will cut their own path. Maybe immersion is good for some but not all. Personally my introduction to french in secondary school was a disaster. The method " one size must fit all " is obviously an outdated system. I applaud what you and Luca and many others present .But we must all find our own path. People need to realise that a language journey is not a race !
The military and the Mormon church both have immersion programs and learn languages at a fast pace... Like you've stated in videos, but yes, I do agree, you need to reference your native tongue so you don't lose yourself and get overwhelmed... learning languages should be fun, not a chore or added stress which could create Major setbacks.
Ive been studying Spanish for almost two years consistently in addition to what i remembered from school. I think ive progressed really well but im constantly having trouble with the speed of which people talk. I live in a part of the country where there are many Mexicans and when im in their presence I try to listen to them intently when they speak but i can only pick out bits and pieces.
I found it useful to be totally immersed from B2 or C1 and above. Prior to that I would not have had enough knowledge of grammar and vocab to fully engage and interact with native speaker content. Even after C1 when I moved to Germany the first 6 months were difficult. Even though I had a good mark in the C1 exam there was a lot I did not understand. Accents, slang and some TV programmes were well beyond the level of what I had learned in a language class. Now after 2 years most of it is comprehensible.
I see your point. I have limited experience but in my case immersion from B1 level was the best decision ever. Although, I wouldn't recommend every B1 learner start full immersion, only to those who are confident or on their way to confidence in their target language.
What you say is true. I have been bullied by someone who told me I should’ve known how to speak the language in 90 days. Basically, I was called stupid.
If you're going to another country to learn a language it's best to avoid being with other English speakers and, even better, reinvent yourself and pretend you don't speak English. Okay, maybe that last suggestion was a bit tongue-in-cheek but other people wanting to speak English to you is a clear issue for us.
I recommend learning the language with audio programs, books and online resources--starting with reading first, with a helpful method that works for you--and then using Skype with foreign friends. Later, spend a week, and eventually more, in the country that speaks the language. I recommend audio with text at some point, and bilingual books. I found the Bible written and read in my languages for free.
Hi Olly, I have to say I agree with you about using comprehensible immersion rather than TOTAL immersion. When we speak about language learners we are usually speaking about adult learners who have already acquired a native language and they are trying to learn a target language. To try to keep this comment short! I will mention two core points I think we should focus on. no.1 a need to incorporate the target language into our daily lives and no. 2 Motivation. We need to slowly focus on using the target language on a daily basis at the expense of using our native language and this is not always an easy task for an adult, and requires some subtle thinking to achieve. No. 2 Motivation. This in my opinion is the most difficult problem for an adult learner. How many people start of with a phrasebook then progress to comprehensible input and fail to reach their goals? They give up! They lose their Motivation. What Motivation is needed to jump in to the deep end of language learning and keep going until you reach you goals and come out successful? It's ridiculous to expect an adult to do that! Who could enjoy that? I will leave it at that Olly and hope to hear your views on this comment. As always, Regards, Patrick
Hi Patrick. I agree completely. Also notice how both your points are linked - without enough motivation you’ll find it very difficult to incorporate the language into your daily life in an intentional way. Motivation is the be all and end all, as far as I’m concerned!
I once met a German guy in Argentina that couldn't get people to practice his rudimentary Spanish with. He had been learning mostly through Duolingo, and had a few words and phrases, and decent listening comprehension, but here we speak a different dialect and use different pronunciation from the usual varieties taught (which are form Spain and Mexico). His next country was Uruguay, which speaks the same dialect with minor variations. All people he met, other tourists and Argentinians, insisted on speaking English with him (a few of them German). About a month in the country and he wasn't learning much of the language at all. It was frustrating to him, so we made the effort to speak Spanish as clearly and neutral as we could, but always ended up switching back to English sooner or later. It was funny, as we had (different) strong accents in English, so it wasn't the best way to communicate either... XD Nice guy, Wolfgang IIRC.
Thanks for the comment. A great illustration of how, in this guy’s case, he’d have been much better off simply learning more by himself until he could handle a basic conversation. Then he’d have much more chance of getting the people he met to speak Spanish with him
In other words, don't try to jump out of ZPD (the zone of proximal development) and improve your skills step by step constantly developing your knowledge and confidence. It's a good strategy for lazy people and for them who are afraid to take a risk. Now you don't need to go anywhere to immerse yourself into language. You can switch your thinking on target language and acquire it without any communication (in common sense) at all.
I like very much your video, although I don't totally agree with some issues. You said that you didn't learn from hearing hours of radio for a beginner, but there's something concrete you learn doing this, it is the sound of the language. Maybe you don't understand, but you get used to the sound and this is extremely helpful in my opinion. I did it on a continuous basis, when I was in my car I was hearing English, I think this helped me a lot. However, I really like your content, even though I don't agree with everything.
Could this be the reason course books start with really simple words and phrases? I'm quite sure that immersion is the fastest way to learn a language, provided that you do a lot of self-study or take classes from day one. Although the native speaker input will be more than the n+1 that Krashen prescribes, it is still input. Also, you do get more chances to interact with people in the language you're learning. If you feel you're not learning because you're too shy to interact with people, it's not immersion setting's fault. However, I do agree that most people will benefit more from an immersion experience if they already have a decent level of the language being learnt.
ive only been learning german for about 40ish days. At work before we open I can listen to something for one hour. So I've been listening to slow german podcasts. Some episodes i barely understand it, other episodes I understand quite a bit. 90% though is quite high. Even if I hear an episode 5 times, I generally only increase my understanding of that podcast when I learn new words externally, via anki or other methods. So, my comprehensible input is slowly increasing. Is there a better audio source I could be using? Or if just give it more time, when I start understanding more they will become of more value yeah? Sometimes with normal spoken german I can understand the gist of what they are saying, but I guess Im probably only understanding 20% of it. The other thing I've only just started doing is, if I watch a video in english, I put german subtitles on and try to read along. Any interesting new vocab I find I write down to put into flashcards at a later date. Now, I don't know how accurate the auto subtitles are obviously, seems to work good if the person is speaking clearly, and it's only a small supplemental thing. Was denkst du?
If I understand less than like 95 percent, I get kicked out of understanding altogether, getting distracted, thinking about something else. Better to *almost* get it, so that you stay hooked, and look up the 5 percent you don't know. Immerse on 95 percent material until you can handle native sources. I see no point having stuff run in the background all the time. Will only become a stressor. If you don't listen anyway, turn it off. Enjoy the silence. Recover. Then back to conprehensible input.
I have studied swedish 9 years, spanish 3 years and french 2 years in the school. I didn't learn those. I was hoping immersion would help me, but if it won't then i guess nothing will. English I know in this c- levels only because I lived in UK 5 months ( studing it 14 years didn't get me anywhere )
Immersion only works if you are doing it with shit you actually like not boring like going hours a day lectures or listening to radios. But if you like Video games then immerse yourself with video games, Anime then anime, you know stuff you actually enjoy and even then you need to pay attention to context clues in shows and games but not just throw yourself into the deep end watch a episode with subtitles then without or vice versa. But without context clues such as what a apple looks like you are not going to fucking know they are talking about a fucking apple. So if one is a beginner and wants a full immersion they need to treat it like they are a toddler and watch baby shows as they give context clues on what things are then from there they can go up and build upon it
I'm daily listening and watching movies and podcasts in English ( British❤) because I haven't been in English speaking countries yet, but I can't start new language ((
Sometimes it reminds me of the Fast Show sketches about off-roading ... "grrrrr lets off road!!!!!" ... does strike me sometimes that it's like a really hardcore "grrrrrrr .... lets immerse!!!!" kind of thing. I did an immersion experiment while I was still in the beginner stages of Japanese, 30 days without using English ... set up my apartment so that everything was in Japanese, hid anything English, changed the settings of my computer, phone etc. I'd just taken a redundancy offer from the company I worked for in England and had got an offer to work in Japan - so I thought I had this month where, unlike before, I could actually spend a month fast-tracking my Japanese by trying to live in the language. The good - well, by forcing myself to not speak English that month, I did learn quite a lot more Japanese than I'd have learned bumbling along at my gently-as-we-go rate ... and probably more importantly, I quickly found everyday things that I couldn't articulate in Japanese ... so would flick through textbooks or surf the internet to find out how I could say what I needed to say. I did iTalki sessions every couple of days ... and was repeating a lot of the same stuff. Maybe not the most cost effective way of making progress, but I guess when I finally moved to Japan, I could rattle out some basic Japanese reasonably confidently and felt rather accomplished. The amusing - I had to email the company I worked for previously by writing emails in Japanese and then taking screen grabs from google translate and attaching them to my email correspondence. Then not reading the English responses, cutting and pasting that into google translate and trying to read kanji that I simply couldn't understand!!! whoops. The bad - after moving to Japan, after the early days of feeling rather good about being able to make seemingly fluent basic conversation with a limited vocabulary ... I went through a period of feeling the only way I'd ever get to where I wanted to be would be by immersion ... but of course, I have to save up money to take the time off work etc etc ... so because I spend the majority of my time teaching English, it always felt like that goal was beyond me. Kind of like when I started playing guitar ... for I had mastered "3 blind mice" ... and now for my second step ... Cavatina!!!! he he he. Oh crap ... my fingers hurt!!!! So ... I decided that what I could actually do, given my circumstances was focus on becoming literate ... kanji fits in with my day ... and after a while, it became something that I just love doing. Fluency went out of the window ... but in it's place, I started building my vocabulary and enjoying being able to make sense of the world of text around me. It's a bit like slow cooking really. I still plod away with speaking Japanese and very slowly, I'm making progress the whole time ... but it's become very much a lovely journey to savour. I've become less interested in getting somewhere fast ... it's like I've gone on a deeper dive into the language ... after wanting to be able to handwrite kanji, I started learning shodou last year ... and what I absolutely adore, is the fact that I can see my progress visually - just the smallest little things please me ... and as long as I keep going in that direction, I'm a very happy man. I think I've fallen in love with this language ... and it's no longer a race, it's no longer about trying to conquer it, master it, tame it or anything like that ... it's just become a friend that I love spending time with when opportunities arise. Sure, there's still a long long way to go ... but that doesn't matter anymore ... you know, immersion will be great when I can swim ... but there's no need to fill my boots with rocks and dive into an ocean under some foolish whim of "grrrrrr lets immerse".
whatsoever, I have to admit that I have never put any effort to learn english at all and until now did I realize the english I was taught at school and the english I naturally acquired or people often call it immersive learning are totally different to each other
I just wanna learn fast, I don't got time to be waiting 10 years to reach my goal, less than a year preferably, a year is pushing it, and I also hate studying
It's one strategy and everything depends on the individual/s and their own background and goals. For some it may be good and for others a traditional approach may be better. What you are saying makes a lot of sense.
I would add that, in Wales, comprehensible input means input minus a level so the material is always slightly below your level. But the normal rules of linguisitcs don't seem to apply in Wales.
How can you learn a language with full immersion? Imagine landing in China and expect to learn the language without having a good base. You must have a basic understanding of a language before you can try immersion.
I would say it depends on the individual and his/her/they learning style. But I suppose it would not be controversial to say that it is helpful to learn foundational knowledge first.
Active listening is the best, you have to listen but translate stuff then comeback to the video, then try to establish patterns for grammer, remember certain useful words, try to put them in different contexts, you cannot just listen and hope you get it lol
This has mostly been my experience as a language learner. I do use immersion, but always in conjunction with more conventional study methods - one enhances the other.
You cannot tell me someone thats going to a new country without any knowlege of the language there doesnt learn faster the language then someone with the same knowlege in his own country trying to learn the language.
Gotta disagree. Its the only method that actually helped me learn a language
3 роки тому
There's a high chance you're doing immersion the wrong way by trying to understand everything 100% properly so it probably burned you out. Without immersion, any grammar information and vocabulary we study will be useless. Grammar study activities themselves are a form of immersion, they just lack quantity and quality. Studying grammar too much is like we're trying to push a rock up a hill, then we stop to take a break and let the rock fall down halfway. It's a halfmeasure. I did immersion since day one of my Japanese study. Now after a year I could read novels and consuming Japanese media on a regular basis.
I totally agree. I am starting to realize this as I am learning Japanese. I have tried Khazumoto's method, and gave up soon after (lol) If it is a language that is closer to your own native language, then immersion becomes much easier. However, it is much better to get a solid foundation, and then build on material that is not too hard for you to understand. Then, after that you can start focusing on learning the language more monolingually (with a monolingual dictionary and native material). Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this topic ^^ It was really insightful!
Remember that there has to be science behind all this information. By logic, the inmersion has to be graded or actually called by linguists and people specialized in language teaching weather EFL or ESL as created materials. With time the learner gets words, vocabulary and phrases to go on to the next level and start working on authentic materials. A beginer won´t understand a thing ? Not quite. A true beginer may. But it doesn´t mean that it is expected that a beginer must understand all. Actually just get a general idea and certain information. So, to say that inmersion doesn´t work would require a pretty well-based argument on science since it is not totally true and totally biased. It is commonplace that people who inmerse in language improve. Some other people but thhe question is why? Could be lack of words, lack of practice, irrealistic objectices (e.g. I want to speak with natives of any language when I jut know colors and maybe a hello) when inmersing into the new language. So many variables here to state that it just does not work because of few people couldn't improve from an actual mayority ! The beginer level allows the person do accomplish certain tasks. If the person can't well I guess this person is not a beginer! All I'm saying, inmersion is a tool used by A LOT of people. Even in my personal experience I can tell you, it's an excellent tool!
Thanks for your comment. It’s absolutely true that what I’m saying here is based on generalisations. But also bear in mind the definition I gave at the start. When you start to talk about graded immersion, it’s a different discussion. Science has been of limited help in assessing actual learning - when does input become intake? I suppose this is partly because we all learn differently. But, in an area with limited help from science, *generalisations* based on extensive personal experience are *generally* going to be generally helpful for people in *general*. What I’m really trying to do though is not give categorical advice but rather to help people who are not experienced in language learning to challenge certain preconceptions and feelings of “should” and “ought” which are all too common and can prevent people actually learning how they learn best - the ultimate goal.
One thing I can tell you is the beginer student should avoid inmersing into the language as a total. Instead inmerse into graded materials (there is lots of research on this and it's not a different discussion since there are comparisons between students learning in schools with authentic materials, EFL, ESL... (there are statistical studies) which are consider inmersion , natural inmersion, native's language inmersion, and other definitions I don't remember anymore from my university days. And then we have the graded materials as a way of simplified imput and inmersion for the learner to acquire new words and phrases as well as confidence and so on. There are plenty authors and studies that have defined the word 'lerning, language learning, language acuisition so there's plenty help from science. What I see is that a good advice from experience souds like a great idea. We all language techers and specialists do it, but it does not change the fact that is an advice, subjectivity lies within the advice we give to people . All-in-all it is always recommended to check the scientific literature so we ca avoid misconceptions. People do need something that works. Inmersion is not a bad idea, whether you are a beginer or not. The issue here is not having learned the tools to cope with some situations or having irrealistic goals. Although, how can we teach them that? are language teaching books enough? Language survival guides help for this? To tell the truth, I can't tell since it's a never ending discussion. Inmersion is recommended (mostly every language teacher and specialist can tell this) but should not be expected by the person to understand everything is said in the target language. But, logically, if the person simply does not possess the basics to even survive in a country, that person will fail, get demotivated, or even quit. If that person goes alone , it's worse. All I'm saying once again is that inmersion isn't bad if used properly , with realistic objectives and with the proper tools to get the important information and not to expect to understand all. Going to another country is a challenge . The advice is good, so good ad I do agree with it, honestly. But as language professionals we should promote it with but ways of how to deal with some situations, misunderstandings and ways of getting the information and how to pick it up from it if the person still is on the journey to inmerse even thogh that person is beginner ( although different authors define beginners with some differences). I don't know, it's how I see in my experience and my knowledge of linguistics , applied linguistics, psycholinguistics and so other fiels I enjoy knowing,there's simply so much about languages . Thank you for your time. You're work is excellent! I hope people use your advice and that it give them the answers they are looking for to tame any target language they are leanring! It's a hard thing but everybody can learn a langauge! Ialso learned from you.Sincerely. Dan.
You sound fine to me Olly and there are Brits I wouldn't even know they are speaking English if I didn't know before hand. IM a native Australian English speaker.
Thanks! Yeah immersion is kinda cult like. I’ve asked beginner vocab questions and got told “because you’re an idiot unless you absorb your vocab by immersion” and no excuses for not doing immersion all day every day etc etc... put me off asking for help. Beginners need to build their base, and a much quicker way to build that base is actually study the basics, we have adult brains, babies can’t read etc, so we do have a head start on the basics. Immersion is a tool of many.
Great video, and great points, but weren't we all taught our native languages by immersion? Sure we go from speaking nonsense, but after a while we can speak full sentences pretty decently.
It's not quite that simple. As children, we are spoken at while, usually, simultaneously translated at. A parent'll ask "are you hungry for a cookie?" and maybe do something visual like rub their tummy to indicate hunger, and hold up or point at a cookie. When the kid says "me want cookie" the parent will correct their grammar and sentence structure with "it's 'I want a cookie please' dear". They don't just throw a random complicatedly-structured sentence out there into the air with no references, especially if the kid had, for example, no idea what a cookie was because they'd never had one. Otherwise they might as well be saying "gibblety indicative object if amza preference?" to a two year-old, which means nothing to their brains even without a competing first/original language getting in the way of their understanding. A lot of immersive-style learning takes place in settings where there are no visuals, no initial instruction on sentence structure or grammar (so a newbie student can parse where in a sentence to pay particular attention to, in order to catch key words or phrases), and little to no teaching of vocab. Which makes the so-called 'beginners' class a joke and waste of time, really.
I remember attending an arabic course where my tutor taught 99% of everything through writing and speaking in arabic. The problem was, I had no idea what he was saying so while he taught, I would miss key principles and it was just a stressful and confusing environment. I get that it was supposed to create immersion but I genuinely disliked learning it and having a bunch of notes terribly written in arabic that made no sense to me. He always said that after 6 months I would stop scratching my head and it would all make sense but it just seemed like a very off putting way to learn
My Spanish 1 professor tried this and half the class dropped out. It was absolutely hell, and I never tried again
I remember my high school French classes were taught this way and I struggled with it.
Idk how your teacher teaches, do they immediately throw you into the deep end? When i did spanish at school, my teacher spoke 90% spanish during class and made concepts very comprehensible using images, body language, paraphrasing, using easier words in general… i guess your teacher forgot one thing, the input should be comprehensible, and also compelling enough to gain interest.
@@poiseblemiramoon6992 very true, after all, quoting Stephen Krashen, "we acquire language through *comprehensible input* in a *low-anxiety environment* ".
People keeps forgetting the second key aspect somehow! the OP comment just shows that it is the failure from the teacher's side to provide the best immersion experience.
Immersion has helped me more than anything else. As a language teacher, I will continue to push it as the most important aspect of language learning. Mainstream media never talks about it. It’s not difficult to do it at home. As MIA says, watch native content for a set amount of hours while pausing and heavily studying. Watch content around your level.
This require much time, immersion in listening and watching is good to learn structures and key words and phrases and to reinforce and practice the words that you already know or is trying to learn. I learn much more with text and audio, books and transcription because i notice the patterns and i don't need to revise them in an Anki deck because i only try to learn the words that appears several times, and therefore i sort of have a selection in the words and learn the most used words in a natural and efortless way just because the words that most appears in a language they will be in any content that you consume so it's useless to revise them in SRS if i can learn them only by context, and no, put a phrase in anki is not context.
"Around your level" is the key. But that's not immersion, that's comprehensible input - didn't you even see this video?!
There has been a study with students made which showed that they improved their language ability by reading books they understood 98% of. 98%. Graded reader is the magic word. Compared to students who read books they only understood 70 or 50% of they were soooo much faster in reading that they came across much more words while having much more fun at the same time.
Don't use immersion in the beginner class though. You're just setting up your students to fail
You can immerse yourself without paying or joining a cause that does it. You literally just change everything you do to match the language you are learning. Everything in English you would translate into that language. It works, you just have to be dedicated.
@Retog But how do you watch content around your level as a beginner? There has to be some starting point. I feel like that was the point of this video.
Beautifully said. I’m currently living in Germany. Came here on study abroad with next NO german. You learn fast that sitting in your lectures does fuck all for learning the language since it’s all so incomprehensible. After 4.5 months I’m nearing on b1 if not already there, buts that had far more to do with my own self study, which I mostly could have done back in England (although having German Netflix, libraries, and Sympathetic native speakers has been a big help too)
My own experience of learning Chinese just proves this idea. You can listen to native speakers for months and still acquire nothing. That's why it's necessary to find some decent materials and people to talk with.
Bingo!
I learnt it from 0 by immersion. 1st year I struggled with tones but on my 2nd I was already there. On my 3rd I had it already. If you put yourself into it and scape from english speaking environments, you will make it but you must keep a positive attitude (That's the key dude!). Immersion works and its my favourite approach but it only works if you stop the ''buts' and ''ifs'' :) Good luck and don't give up!
Vinny Carmona Immersion works accompanied by other things. My parents have lived in England for over a decade now and can barely speak english even though they get a lot of daily immersion at work etc. For immersion to work you do have to solidify what you’re hearing with other resources.
@@niamhbutler5685 They can only learn the English around them if they are actively listening for hours each day, otherwise it wont work and also they probably operate in their native language at home so they need to put in active effort to learn
PrimeArtOnline - Piano Covers They work in english workplaces with native english speakers, every single day. They also watch a lot of english tv because my younger siblings watch english kids shows. Sure they can understand some things and can have a simple conversation but they are no where near fluent even after living in an english speaking country for nearly 20 years nor do they understand english grammar and how to correctly construct sentences. Simply listening to a language isn’t gonna make you fluent. Most people don’t really have the time to be listening to their target language for hours every day and if they don’t live in a country where their target language is spoken it’s gonna be even harder.
There is a simple solution to comprehension. That is find material that you can read as well as listen to, i.e. audiobooks with text, songs with printed lyrics, radio programs with transcripts. When you read, you can slow down, use a dictionary, or a parallel translated text to get the meaning. Understand the written text, listen while reading, listen without the text, and read the text aloud after listening. I find my oral comprehension has improved this way and I can get more and more benefit from just listening. I have done this for French and I find that I read better and can comprehend radio programs.
Par cette mèthode, vous allez ameliorer votre niveau de la langue au fil de temps.
Absolutely! It’s one of the real secrets of effective study.
What's great is that you don't need a physical dictionary. Just a online dictionary or translator- google translate for example although it's imperfect. These days with the internet, it's so easy to look up words you don't know in a split second. So as long as you have audio input plus a transcript, you can go from understanding just 20% to 80-90% fairly quickly- because of an online dictionary or translator.
I love immersion from day one for 1 reason; it tells my adhd brain that it is relevant information to retain. I change all my entertainment into the language, I keep it as passive noise in the background when I fiddle with something etc for a few weeks so that my brain thinks this language is now an essential aspect of my environment and it helps my learning disability. I retain better. If I don't make it important for my brain on an instinctual level that hey this is a part of our environment now then almost nothing sticks but because I made it relevant and keep it relevant it sticks with minimal to no effort. The immersion isn't the learning tool though, it just softens the sponge to ready the brain to soak up the information better.
I think I might have it to. I know I'm 100% or 0% into something..no middle ground. I've been watching basically everything in spanish way over my skill level. Comprehensible input is to boring to watch. I watch a lot of tv, UA-cam, movies etc anyway so why not in my target language even if I don't understand? For me it makes me want to learn more so I can understand it better. One thing that helps is if you've seen it before. I've been able to guess a lot of what was said because I've seen it and know the plot. Any parts I find interesting and want to know the dialog I speak it best I can into chat gpt. I find I'm usually 80% on the voice to text so I feel like this helps with my speaking ability too. Imo it is a slower process, but I feel its helping. I do it everyday and more importantly I'm not bored and I'm having fun learning.
Edit: I've also been learning italian on the side just 15 mins a day on duolingo. I've noticed when I started to do more immersion in spanish it seemed like it helped with my italian (both languages are similar, italian much harder to speak imo). Before I couldn't say italian phrases, but its gotten a lot easier faster and I haven't been listening to italian.
Before I knew any French I went onto a French immersion camp for 12 days, granted it might have not been the best thing to do from a logical standpoint,but it does make you realise how much you can actually speak with a very small and I mean a very small vocabulary, I came back with a good foothold in the language and it basically gave me the leg up.
I don't think it's controversial, everybody knows that immersion is beneficial when you understand the language properly.
Yes, except many people feel it’s something you should do as a beginner. You’ll see what I mean in the other comments here. :)
Immersion is fine when you are on a decent level of the language you are learning.
Absolutely.
...or an infant. Not much of a choice for one anyway.
Immersion is “absolutely necessary” you mean
Everyone starts at 0 not at a decent level. We all acquired our first language that way.
This is what I saw all the time. Immersion and studying abroad isn't always great. You can easily drown if your language skills aren't good enough and if you don't put yourself out there and do things you aren't going to learn. You have to interact. You can't expect that you'll just absorb the language by being in the country/surrounded by it in some way.
Language Learning Lounge often my experience yes
When I studied in France there were a couple people like that. One stopped talking to me because I stopped translating for her. Such a shame.
What follows is a wall of text describing how I learnt 4 languages - 3 quite successfully and 1 much less so...that one was the only one I learnt in full immersion since the beginning.
I managed to learn russian faster and better than anybody i met in russia because I had been studying grammar intensely in high school. When I arrived to russia, I couldn't really speak, but my grammar was so advanced that I could grab vocabulary quickly and improve. Also, what helped is that I had put my mind into believing that I was a rockstar at Russian, so it was out of question for me to start my conversations by "i don't speak russian so well, but...". Same thing with both spanish and english. I always convinced myself I could speak them ("fake it till you make it") and that worked. But I never needed any immersion for either of them. I never lived in a spanish or english speaking country. I was doing so well in class that I was always confident in my ability to speak either of them.
Now, when it comes to the last language I learnt, I did everything bad. First of all, I learned turkish through russian. I would never advise anybody to make the mistake to start learning a language in a language you don't master! Because I was late in the course (classmates had had over 30h of classes already!) I was already struggling on day one, so my mindset was pretty bad. In order to catch up with the group's level, I started to spend all my free time with Turkish students, who didn't know any russian yet. I was basically in total immersion from day 3. Guess what? I was still the worst student in my class. I got 7h a week of Turkish classes for over half a year, but I could never make a decent sentence, even though I was living with monolingual Turks! Years later, I moved to Turkey and started to speak from day one with everything I remembered. Sadly I got discouraged because everybody was replying back to me with a terrible english (when I was asking very simple questions, such as "how much is this dress?" - 4 euros my dear!" so frustrating). At some point I met the man who would become my boyfriend for years. We'd speak english at first and little by little reverted to Turkish. Guess what now? Still struggling. My comprehension became solid, but my vocabulary was still mediocre. I could essentially not improve my level, because I was continuously using the same vocabulary, and my bf was unconsciously using basic vocabulary. I never dared to learn another language since this experience. Turkish drained me and my self confidence too much. After years living amongst them and in the country, I was still having a hard time building complex sentences. And I guess that's because I was in total immersion so fast, that it had a toll on my learning abilities for the first time. (I was only 20 when I started learning Turkish, so I don't think it had something with ageing)
PS) I have lived with dozens of Arabs from different arabic countries for months and months at a time. Then I spent 5 months in Morocco. I have a level zero in arabic. Hearing it all the time never helped me learn even the basics, because I have never sitten down and grabbed a grammar book. Their talking would be nothing more than continuous and undiscernable sounds. I lived in several other countries with zero basics and could learn absolutely nothing.
So I kinda learned English through immersion more or less by accident. I started watching Harry Potter, Pirates of the Caribbean and other movies I'd watched countless times before when I was in 6th grade (= second year of English classes at school). Because I knew these movies so well in German, I understood what was going on without actually understanding the words. I ended up acquiring quite a lot of words and from there, my comprehension skyrocketed. I moved on to sitcoms and after about two years, I was able to comfortably watch shows like criminal minds.
Learning grammar at school certainly helped decode phrases but beyond that, I don't feel like English lessons were of much use to me. I'd attribute most of my success to immersion and for the first couple of years, I was rarely at ~90% comprehension.
I do feel that it would have been a lot harder to learn through immersion if I hadn't learned grammar at all. It probably would have taken me a long time to just acquire how to use the different past tenses, for example. Mixing theoretical grammar knowledge with immersion seems like a good middle ground.
I think the major problem with obsessing input is "comprehensible" or just a step above your current level is that it makes engaging with the language more difficult and boring than it has to be.
I got to an intermediate level in Korean by watching dramas which were way beyond my comprehension level at the time. But engaging freely with content that I found interesting motivated me to push through difficulties, make effort to make the content more comprehensible.
On the other hand, I've just started German and the only content I have to work are retellings of children's stories in simple German. It's excruciatingly dull. It honestly reduces my motivation to learn German.
For me, the level of interest I have in the content is more important than its comprehensibility.
Yeah totally agree. I think it's best to go to the country when you're a high intermediate, you get the most benefit. You can participate in society more - join groups, go to events and talk to people etc.
Spot-on mate. I'm an university student and went to mainland China for an exchange of half a year to see how far could I get with the language, starting mandarin chinese from a scratch.
I did get quite far but it was extremely wearing experience. I completely immersed myself by joining sports clubs etc. with only chinese people. At first it's pretty fun trying to cope with everyday life only using chinese, but I quickly realised that it actually takes time to build a solid vocabulary.
So imagine speaking the same sentences over and over again, and usually not understanding anything the other party has to say. Often I felt that I was like a three year old in a body of a 20 year old cuz I couldn't express myself. Anyways, still learning chinese and determined to be fluent one day.
How‘s that fluency going?
r u fluent yet
When people mention Immersion, they usually mean "comprehensible enough that you ATLEAST get what is going on/being talked about and optimally, like you said as close to i+1 as possible".
The only good that listening to native content whilst you are still a beginner is going to do, is that you get a feel for what the language sounds like+its rythm, but thats it.
Immersing yourself in content that u cant understand for sh*t, is other than the few benefits above, the same as listening to random noise.
and in the end, if you ever want to become actually good at a language, immersion is the single most important thing u gotta do.
But yea, going ham on it too early isnt the way to go about it.
Agreed
@@beefsteax I have found some good emersion techniques for beginner and yes immersion is still helpful but if you can't find any content for complete beginners then you might want to teach yourself the top 100 words and maybe top 10 phrases and a little bit of basic grammar before immersing with the intent to catch on at all and even then it's still hard to find language content for complete beginners about emersion but beginner immersion is a good way to get the feel of the language but I do have personal experience and the stories of many others not everybody works the same so some people can immerse and be okay especially really young children (-3) because children actually pick up language they take the steps subconsciously to learn by listening looking and repeating
There's tons of research if you want to look at it but yes a beginner can immerse and learn that way if you find come content suitable for your language or if you're forced to learn it to survive and do your best to learn like a child
@@beefsteax But asking questions is great it's always good to know why something doesn't work for yourself sometimes it's good to take people's advice when you don't have other options and sometimes it isn't but when you can researching is always great and asking questions just being curious you might naturally learn a lot of simple things so I really do appreciate that seriously
Edit: but setting your phone to another language since you're familiar with many application names is it really annoying way to learn new vocab but it can be helpful I really just doing anything familiar and not too difficult in another language but we all work differently
Immersion is a newer fancy word for SINK OR SWIM! Immersion is great at the intermediate and advance levels.
Agreed
@一本のうんち You can learn advanced words by immersion but it takes way longer than if you study them in an SRS. This is because the more advanced you get, the rarer the words get too. Some words dont even exist outside of classes or very specific websites/articles.
Yes I am quite good level
@wentropy -- yeah, that seems likely. Too bad so many beginning or 101-level classes (from my own experiences as well as others') are using immersion style instead of actually instructing true beginners and saving immersion for intermediate and advanced classes.
"Hi, you're here to learn (insert language here)? Well, start practicing your conversation in said language. Ta-da! I'm a fantastic teacher!"
-__-;...
I totally agree, when I first started learning Chinese I used to listen to broadcast on the radio. It was pointless as understood one word which was shi the verb to be. I often thought that if I was on a desert island with radio with endless batteries , one could spend years and years of listening and still be non the wiser, because you simply don't have a reference point so you could not even infer a meaning to almost anything.
I agree. I currently learn Japanese through immersion now, but I didn't see much benefit from it until I had memorized hundreds of words with Anki and watched a bunch of beginner comprehensible input videos.
Native Input is sometimes helpful for beginners to help train the ear a bit, but most people are getting nearly zero comprehensible input from native level material.
The more I've researched how language learning works, the more I've become confident that "just listening" to the language is really not a effective way to learn it. There needs to be some level of active engagement with the language to learn something substantial from the input. People don't start "just learning from context" until they are in the late intermediate stages of learning a language at best. It takes a lot of effort to actively to memorize words in the early stages to make progress. That's just inherently part of language learning process that everyone does in their own way. I'm also convinced that people can't just "figure out" a language just from hearing it a lot. Languages are really complex at times and our brains need some kind of context to connect new language to concepts we already understand. You can't just stare at a bunch of puzzle pieces and magically know how they fit together, we have to slowly experiment with pieces to build out our knowledge base little by little. Some pieces with be left on their own for a while until they finally can be joined to the rest of the puzzle.
Some of the old school "hardcore" language learners did the Mass Input method because there wasn't much information on effective self study methods back even 15 years ago. They were just making it up as they went and it happened to work out for them through sheer determination.
Today, a more effective method is not necessarily to focus on Mass Immersion, but to focus on actively engaging with content that is almost comprehensible to your level. I see it as Prime, Review, Recall. Seeing a word for the first time is Priming, seeing it again in Anki is Review, and seeing it during immersion is Recall. It takes time to prime, review, and recall thousands of words in a language, much less also put together the grammar too.
That's where a lot of these "learn _____ in 6 months" videos confuse people. The content creators say things like "learn 50 new words a day and you'll know as many words as native speakers". People will be primed for 9,000 words, but they'll probably barely be able to recall like 200 of those in a real life situation until they spend years properly reviewing and recalling them daily. Human brains can't just dump in endless amounts of data and remember everything just because we want to learn fast. Learning fast isn't about dumping language into our heads, it's about using effective methods that reinforce small bits of language everyday. Forgetting and relearning takes way more time than making sure to get those words sunk deep into our subconscious mind the first time.
Well known UA-camrs like MattvsJapan and Xiaomanyc were very vocal early on that they spent ungodly amounts of time using tools like Anki when they were learning Japanese and Mandarin respectively. The narrative got shifted to "White Guy learned Japanese by just watching anime" or "White guy learned Mandarin by just talking with the locals". The title of "White guy spent 6 hours a day reviewing Anki cards and looking up words in TV shows" isn't quite as eye catching. Matt didn't just immediately start watching anime all day as soon as he started learning Japanese. He spent a lot of time learning all the common Kanji and words first before diving into Japanese media. Xiaomanyc also didn't start learning fluent Mandarin from day one just because he talked with native speakers. He was able to talk well because he studied the language a ton in his free time. The speaking was just a fun way to force himself to actively recall what he has already primed and reviewed. It wasn't the speaking that made him improve, it was just more motivation to keep studying when he saw how he was able to connect to new people through Mandarin.
Nice words dude! I'm a beginer in learned english. Your text gave me a direction in my journey 😂😂 6 months of immersion, my writing is so bad type a homosapiens 😢😂😂😂
well stop doing immersion the wrong way then it should be progressive
I have learnt 4 languages by immersion. No "BUT's", no "IF's". Just be positive and focus on target. Day at a time. Learn like a baby :)
+Vinny Carmona People get impatient and say it doesn't work and give up, without waiting for that wonderful snowball effect that takes months, one day it feels like that Matrix scene where Neo says "I know Kung Fu".
They haven't downloaded enough information to their brains, bad input. Garbage in, garbage out. Besides, this is just a technique, not the only way to learn languages, some people get bored with it.
@@dragonswordmountain2908 Yea it takes thousands of hours. Not just a few hundred and expect it to give you results.
@@dragonswordmountain2908 storage memory is too full that's why they cant download enough information lmao
I just hate immersion. It doesn't work for me, at all. Why do I speak French and Hebrew so well though? They were taught to me before all this immersion hype, when grammer and rules were explained to me, in English, slowly and alongside the actual learning of the new language. I was never just spoken at in French or Hebrew. I was taught, in English, how to learn a new language, and I did, and both of these langauges still serve me well some 30, 40 and 50 years later. I now live in Barcelona, where the old paradigm of teaching language is gone. It's all immersion here now and while learning Catalan this way may be easier for Spanish and Italian speakers, for native English speakers it totally sucks butt. I fail every exam, can't hear/understand what's being said, yet I can speak some only becasue of Catalan's close relationship to French. I have a propensity for languages, but my 60 year old brain is hard wired for 1970s/80 language learning methods ... slowly, methodically, with purpose and rules to help govern your steps and understand the building blocks. I'll take the old way of teaching a foreeign language any day of the week.
Olly is not saying immersion is bad .Rather he’s making a point that ,for language learners who at a begging level, immersion isn’t the best way of learning. You don’t expect yourself to become proficient in a language just because you managed to surround yourself with an all native environment. Lots of deliberate study needs to be done before that, you have to have a certain level of understanding beforehand.
Good to see someone actually listening to what I said rather than reacting to the title alone!
Good points. I once kept the French radio on for hours every day for years tuned to Radio France Inter when I lived in London. I learnt nothing as far as being able to speak, read or write French. One might thus assume that I had wasted my radio's time by this exercise. I did not waste my own time as I had to clean my quarters, cook, eat and read in this time. It came to pass that i next joined an extramural French language class in London in the afternoons. Wow! I found myself learning, I mean learning, the French tongue at, it seems, supernatural speed and my teacher commented on my ability. Conclusion? The radio for passive listening is not enough. When it is married to an active learning system such as a course of classes it comes into its own. I advise the viewers to combine active with passive learning methods to optimum results. Thank you Radio France Inter! :)
This is the best advice I have ever received in regards to learning a language
I agree with you. Usually this opinion is met with resistence. Immersion helps, but one must be mindful of it. I've met people who lived in countries for 10+ years and cant form a sentence other than, "thanks" or "another beer please". Simply being there is not enough.
.
I study Russian and live in Kyiv and its humbling. When youre there, you realize how much you suck, LOL! Being out of an immersed environment, its easier to maintain your confidence.......you don't KNOW you suck until you get onto the streets of Kyiv! But, by the time you get there, maybe you have 5+ years of study under your belt and it wont matter much.
Thanks for the thoughtful comment Jeff!
Actually, as far as I've understood in regards to immersion, its far from simply living in the country speaking your desired language, it has to do with using the language actively in every aspect of your life. You read, speak and think in the language, all the time. This is why the technique is hard for a complete beginner, but excellent for someone who understands well enough to start having actual conversations with others
Right on. Immersion by itself is not enough. It is the context that makes all the difference, that provides bridges to building meaning. In the right context, immersion is incredible. Without that context, it is useless.
Well said. AKA, comprehensible input.
Agreed in the sense that you need to actively do things like study grammar in the early stages to give you a foundation to build off. After that, I would say immersion works brilliantly as you add layers of words and phrases onto the solid framework of knowledge you already have. I think a purely immersion based approach would take far too long for most people, unless you happen to be in a situation like a child at school where you are literally surrounded by the language all day, every day.
The point you talked about is really valid! Like immersion learning is sure a good way when you really understand the alphabetical phonetics of that particular language.... Immersion for 30 mins a day and 2hrs of serious language learning will probably give good results and
ありがとう(Thankyou) for this realistic approach you talked about in this video✌️🙏
Iam learning Japanese😁
I would like to add that some people confuse immersion and intense training. You can go to a full-time school and learn a language at and intense level for weeks, or months, but that's not immersion.
Reading with the help of a dictionary is the fastest way of expanding your vocabulary. Reading also improves the retention level of words in your memory. Bilingual dictionaries are the exact opposite of Total Immersion. They work for adults. Total Immersion does not.
Many times a language class would have students from multiple language backgrounds. The easiest thing for the language teachers is to immerse them in his or her language. Unsuspecting students assume that Total Immersion is a language learning method for adults. Modern academia is a self serving entity.
Yes. But. There are different types of immersion. Yes, listening to the radio in incomprehensible Chinese probably won't work very well. But there is a way to do immersion with crutches or training wheels. For example, if instead of the radio, you watched youtube videos with slowed down speech and subtitles. The video provides some context from the action you watch on the screen and the slower speech and subtitles make it easier to understand. That still might be hard for a total beginner. But for an intermediate language learner, it would be great. A total beginner could use some translation, but then quickly switch to an immersion approach that is customized to his level- immersion with training wheels.
Agreed. It’s for beginners that this is intended though... still where the majority of learners find themselves (and remain)
I think you’re defining “immersion” in a way that it fits your negative narrative. You’re right that it’s a buzzword, and by critiquing it, you’re getting a lot of clicks/views, so nice logic there!
When I think about immersion, I’m thinking about classrooms. In said classrooms, comprehensible input is used as part of the immersion as is scaffolding. Immersion doesn’t automatically make a teacher a good teacher, but it’s certainly key to expose students to the target language as much as possible. Build on to the exposure with props, body language, gestures, pictures, context, etc...
Yeah, I've spent a decent amount of time immersing with native level Japanese this year, but it feels very inefficient, especially when it's pure listening (no subtitles to pause and read/look up). My conclusion for now is that I should use more comprehensible beginner materials like your Storylearning texts or LingQ Mini-Stories for at least a few months, while memorizing at least 1,000+ of the most common words with Anki. Maybe after that, I will be at a level that native-level immersion is more fruitful per time spent.
Uhh I know I’m like 2 years late but when Khaztumoto or ppl like them mention immersion it means comprehensible input now what does that you ask?
Well you can watch something like anime and then let’s say the MC points at himself and says 俺 (means I in Japanese) then your brain would naturally pick up that because well the MC is pointing at himself and say the Japanese word for I and actually
Steven Krushen (sorry if I misspelled) shows this perfectly in his video he basically described a person’s face in German and even if you don’t know a speck of germen you’re going to pick it up because well it’s input that is comprehensible
If you're learning to swim you start at the low end of the pool. You don't jump in the deep end or you might just drown.
Whenever I try immersion by watching Chinese tv shows I feel like I'm drowning in sounds, so much that I cant even make out the words I do know.
Olly, immersion is not controversial. Everyone knows that immersion is on of the best ways to learn as long as you are receiving meaningful input. Even people you have interviewed on this channel have spoken about going to immersion classes and how great they are...maybe you should change title to immersion doesnt work for Olly...
Right, except that “meaningful input” is extraordinarily hard to get for extended periods of time and in most contexts. In most situations people would call “immersion”, there’s very little meaningful input to be found.
In my view, the general consensus that “immersion is great” is similar to the view that “children learn best”. Mostly BS, and based on an awful lot of assumptions and failure to define terms.
Caveat: When immersion *does* become unbeatable is when you’re at a level where the majority of everyday input you receive is meaningful (as you say), but that doesn’t happen until you’re at a comfortable B1-2 level.
Olly Richards fuck yeah, Olly boy! U nailed it and u have my agreement. Cheers
I have to agree. I feel like I wasted far too much time listening to a bunch of content that I don't understand very well. And what do I have to show for it? I can barely speak at all, and I have a very poor understanding of the language overall. Now I just listen to grammar lessons a lot, and only immerse actively. It feels like a much better use of my time.
this video meant a lot to me, mate. much appreciate it. you mentioned both the pros and cons of that method like sitting on the fence and taking no side to defend. amazing. at least, for me, it was useful and educative.
Immersion has rules too. Going to a place where you understand nothing won't help. Immesing in a place where the language you are exposed to is quite comprehensible, is the key. For example, having a friend who tries to make himself understood by pointing, explaining, etc. Read about the natural approach by steven krashen
What is the desired level of language competency one should reach before utilising the language immersion strategy?
I once got excited when I thought I had learned a new word from context alone (from nothing but 'immersion'), only to find out that my idea of that word was completely and utterly wrong when I actually looked it up. But from that particular context it seemed very convincing to misinterpret it. Maybe you could learn the words properly if they appeared enough times in different contexts but I can't fathom the time it would take to intake that much immersion content. It's ridiculousness. Even hundreds of hours of anime is not enough to learn more than a few words in Japanese.
i spent from kindergarten to like grade 8 doing half of all my school (split by morning/afternoon) in french and i think it was pretty effective i was fluent almost immediately but i also started when i was 4 which may have provided an advantage and i also know this didn't work for everyone in my school even if it did work for me
Nope Olly, your wrong. You're just plain wrong about immersion being a bad language learning strategy for beginners. This is, after all, how infants acquire language, and is the method used for training Mormon missionaries who go to foreign countries where English is not spoken. And such training is backed up by academics who oversee the whole program. If actual communication is the goal, both the spoken language, and on the receiving end, then language immersion is very practical and gets the job done. Language skills can of course be perfected with other methods once the basic skills are learned, but when you're just starting out, you need to get as wet (via "immersion") with the language as you possibly can.
You lose me as soon as you try to equate infant and adult language learners.
@@storylearning - Infants are constantly immersed in the language, and they manage to learn it without being specifically taught anything by the adults surrounding them. They of course get corrections along the way when needed, but it isn't entirely necessary. Suffice it to say that even the most illiterate people are still entirely capable of using language, at least the spoken variety, and communicating precisely what they wish.
There, did I dumb it down enough for you?
"Language immersion" IS actually a real method of accomplishing rather speedy fluency on a rudimentary level.
When an adult does not always have teachers available, then learning becomes a far more personal approach, and it can surely be done by completely and constantly surrounding yourself with the language, and frequently practicing everything you learn with specifically native speakers.
At some point in time, some people manage to "correct" the native speakers.
But the vast majority of us will never become every bit as colloquial as native speakers, although I did indeed know a few such speakers of Spanish.
Let's face it - when a native speaker of Spanish honestly says that her gringo husband speaks perfect Spanish, she means it. Such people exist, but they're rather rare.
I lived in South America for a few years speaking Spanish full time, I was a Spanish teacher in public schools for a short time, and I have a degree in Spanish.
I've lost much of my fluency over the years, but trust me, I know what I'm talking about. I've seen at least a dozen or more channels on UA-cam similar to yours, and it's fair to say most of them are fairly good, including yours.
But there's no shortage of pretenders who make me LOL.
And I repeat ... Immersion is NOT a bad strategy.
It's actually a GREAT strategy.
The average "fluent" adult in Spanish actually can't speak as well as the average 12 year old native kid who speaks it fluently, except for a variety of vocabulary words. I for one believe by far the greatest and most amazing skill is a person who speaks a foreign language with virtually no accent whatsoever.
Such a thing is a rare gift, and simply cannot be taught.
A somewhat less rare gift is being able to easily identify the native speakers, rather than the pretend native speakers. That's what I can do. I have an ear for Spanish, and I can easily distinguish those who are close, but still no cigar. You happen to be almost close, and a little further away from that cigar.
Some people gain that ability after living in a foreign country speaking the language absolutely full time. That's what I did. It's sort of like having perfect pitch. So yeah, I know what Spanish is, and I'm familiar with the fake varieties. Even I can be fooled, of course, but it might take quite a hell of a lot to accomplish.
Another point which needs to be emphasized is that knowing a language, and the ability to very effectively teach the language, are two entirely different things.
Most native speakers of any language have very little skill in teaching their language to non-native speakers unless they're gifted at such.
And by the way, I don't have native style pronunciation. Far from it.
But I sure as hell know what it is when I hear it from non-native speakers.
Some people come 99% to perfection. Having a phonetics class helps that, as well as a class in phonology. I had both.
@@storylearning - How could you be confused? The learning curve is a bit different between adults and children when it comes to learning a language. Adults can comprehend much more, and can ask questions about language, but infants just absorb language without realizing it, nor do they have any mental blocks like many adult learners have. I repeat ... the best way for everyone, infant and adult alike, to learn a language is to be as fully immersed in the language as much as possible. The academic efforts, if they come at all, typically come much later in life.
Keep following Krashen.. he knows what he is talking about. I am teaching my boyfriend Spanish. No textbook.... just comprehensible input type of immersion through picture book, simple commands, simple gestures and pictures and he is making sooo much progress so fast it’s not funny.
Lucky guy, and good on you!
The optimal kind of immersion (and language learning for that matter) would probably be an environment where you can interact with and in a physical environment with a native speaker, who gives you feedback on the things you do. Studies have shown that there is a strong connection between linguistic and motoric cortical regions. Learning a language starting with manipulation and navigation in a limited physical environment would probably lay the strongest possible groundwork for a holistic and idiomatic understanding of the language in question. Human language possibly even evolved specifically for the purposes of categorizing motivational content in our environments, and enable us to communicate our findings with each other, to synchronize our motivations and to make sense of the world together.
We don't even realize how much of our language is actually rooted on metaphors of environmental manipulation, such as "picking up information" (as if it were something lying on the floor), "finding a way to do something" (the problem is a space you must navigate), we can "move an appointment until next tuesday" (as if appointments were physical objects whose positions we could manipulate).
Immersion just by itself, literally being exposed to a lot of input doesn't do anything. It's not only about the messages, it's about their relevance to you (motivational content). You also have to be an active participant in the process, you have to do the interpreting (which demands a lot of brain power). This is the reason you can see those 20-years-in-country expats who don't speak a lick of the local tongue; they never bothered with actually consolidating the input they were given, they just expected sheer "immersion" to carry them through, which is akin to just standing in a swimming pool and expecting that you're going to learn how to swim any minute now if you just stand in the pool long enough.
Very interesting. I think the point about your interaction with the environment is key, and there are parallels in many other aspects of the learning process. “Noticing” for example - a deceptively simple word, and yet one of the most powerful abilities (skills?) to have. In that case, I see that as a kind of “mental interaction” with the language around you - can you dig deep and actively search out the learning opportunities.
One really interesting thing is that motivation is not only related to your proclivity to study, but motivation modulates the entire learning process itself. Motivation and positive attitudes about language learning affect the depth of learning and retention; this is because of the role of the amygdala (often dubbed "the emotion center") which can affect outcomes through dopaminergic modulation (release of dopamine, an important neurotransmitter). That is to say, if you're not keen on studying French, you will literally learn less than if you were keen to do it, all other variables being equal. (Neurobiological Mechanisms of Language Acquisition; Pulvermüller & Schumann 1994)
@@Pakanahymni wow, thank you so much for sharing. Very, very interesting. Topics that I would like to study one day but will probably never become reality...
I have never heard of someone referring to "immersion" as strictly being physicality present with native speakers.
That was the main definition of immersion that I've heard for my entire life, up until Matt vs Japan came along.
@@Lleldorynix good for you, boomer
@@Lleldorynix Matt vs Japan is the best
Immersion works best for me when it comes to language learning because that's when my mind is at ease and able to absorb the most information without much effort. I reached a C1 level in German thanks to years of high school spent in Germany. My German was barely A1 when I came, but there I went to a German school where no one bothered to speak English at all and everything including the "German as a second language" course I attended was taught fully in German. I made rapid progress, wasn't until 2 months that I started to understand everything. "In-country" immersion also works for me. I've never been to an English speaking country but managed to reach C1 only through school plus lots of reading novels, scientific journals and websites, blogging, binge watching movies and vlogs all in English. So I guess it's different for everyone
Wow, from your comment I thought you were a native English speaker haha. I have German family and have wanted to learn for years. I’ve downloaded language apps and the whole nine but have been unsuccessful at my past attempts. I started watching a German show on Netflix called Dark with English subtitles last night (*trigger warning* the opening scene starts with suicide). Off of that one episode alone, I feel like immersion is what will work best for me. Hey, babies have done it for a millennia!
I think the whole immersion thing took off with the Ulpanim system in Israel. But this was as much a matter of practicality as much as ethos. People who were coming to Israel to live came from all parts of the world and had pretty much no languages in common therefore they had to start pretty much from scratch in the target language. Also this was about much more than relocation - this was tied up with resettling as part of the Jewish community. As such this was effective but this is only one circumstance and people's reasons and needs to learn languages are very diverse. So you are correct that, generally speaking, total immersion is completely talked up and overrated in its effectiveness.
"Inmersion" should only be undertaken by ADVANCED students. The popular idea that by changing languages on your cell phone is going to make you proficient in another language is a stretch. All you do with changing the language is vocabulary incrementation, not even a monologue.
I experienced immersion at home.
What u said is correct.
I always felt an aversion to immersion (unless its close to my level).
Good stuff.
Cheers!
I haven't hit 'play' yet, but I'm already glad this vid exists. My so-called 'beginner's' Spanish class threw us into immersion-style on the second week, with an either 3/4ths or 4/4ths in-Spanish textbook, icnr which now, and that was that. Almost zero actual instruction. How was I supposed to "converse in Spanish" when I knew little vocab, no sentence structure, and had barely begun to untangle the rules for ser vs estar vs estoy vs soy etc. etc. yadda yadda?? Wtf was that??! I was so pissed to have already paid when I realized it was not in fact going to get better.
(Also, if a '101' entitled class is the lowest level and thus the beginner's starting point of classes for a language at an institute, it should actually *be a beginner's class* not an intermmediate class masquerading as a beginner's class. >}: [ ] aaauurghh!!!)
You're absolutely right about the loneliness of being abroad. We were in Germany for a whole year, during which our 6-year-old boy was at a German school. He hated it, was miserable, learnt no German.
You are a very good coach Olly and you've made loads of great videos. I think that people will have seen yours and other videos but then will cut their own path. Maybe immersion is good for some but not all. Personally my introduction to french in secondary school was a disaster. The method " one size must fit all " is obviously an outdated system. I applaud what you and Luca and many others present .But we must all find our own path. People need to realise that a language journey is not a race !
The military and the Mormon church both have immersion programs and learn languages at a fast pace... Like you've stated in videos, but yes, I do agree, you need to reference your native tongue so you don't lose yourself and get overwhelmed... learning languages should be fun, not a chore or added stress which could create Major setbacks.
Ive been studying Spanish for almost two years consistently in addition to what i remembered from school. I think ive progressed really well but im constantly having trouble with the speed of which people talk. I live in a part of the country where there are many Mexicans and when im in their presence I try to listen to them intently when they speak but i can only pick out bits and pieces.
The voice of experience which the learners shouldn't ignore.
Thanks Alec!
I found it useful to be totally immersed from B2 or C1 and above. Prior to that I would not have had enough knowledge of grammar and vocab to fully engage and interact with native speaker content. Even after C1 when I moved to Germany the first 6 months were difficult. Even though I had a good mark in the C1 exam there was a lot I did not understand. Accents, slang and some TV programmes were well beyond the level of what I had learned in a language class. Now after 2 years most of it is comprehensible.
I see your point. I have limited experience but in my case immersion from B1 level was the best decision ever. Although, I wouldn't recommend every B1 learner start full immersion, only to those who are confident or on their way to confidence in their target language.
What you say is true. I have been bullied by someone who told me I should’ve known how to speak the language in 90 days. Basically, I was called stupid.
If you're going to another country to learn a language it's best to avoid being with other English speakers and, even better, reinvent yourself and pretend you don't speak English. Okay, maybe that last suggestion was a bit tongue-in-cheek but other people wanting to speak English to you is a clear issue for us.
I recommend learning the language with audio programs, books and online resources--starting with reading first, with a helpful method that works for you--and then using Skype with foreign friends. Later, spend a week, and eventually more, in the country that speaks the language. I recommend audio with text at some point, and bilingual books. I found the Bible written and read in my languages for free.
Yes I’ve seen some great foreign language biblical resources!
This intake on the immersion is not really controversial. People know about the immersion work only in a comprehensible input.
Hi Olly, I have to say I agree with you about using comprehensible immersion rather than TOTAL immersion.
When we speak about language learners we are usually speaking about adult learners who have already acquired a native language and they are trying to learn a target language.
To try to keep this comment short!
I will mention two core points I think we should focus on.
no.1 a need to incorporate the target language into our daily lives and no. 2 Motivation.
We need to slowly focus on using the target language on a daily basis at the expense of using our native language and this is not always an easy task for an adult, and requires some subtle thinking to achieve.
No. 2 Motivation.
This in my opinion is the most difficult problem for an adult learner.
How many people start of with a phrasebook then progress to comprehensible input and fail to reach their goals? They give up!
They lose their Motivation.
What Motivation is needed to jump in to the deep end of language learning and keep going until you reach you goals and come out successful?
It's ridiculous to expect an adult to do that!
Who could enjoy that?
I will leave it at that Olly and hope to hear your views on this comment.
As always,
Regards, Patrick
Hi Patrick. I agree completely. Also notice how both your points are linked - without enough motivation you’ll find it very difficult to incorporate the language into your daily life in an intentional way.
Motivation is the be all and end all, as far as I’m concerned!
I think we should make immersion in the language, learn about grammar and pronunciation and use that language.
I once met a German guy in Argentina that couldn't get people to practice his rudimentary Spanish with.
He had been learning mostly through Duolingo, and had a few words and phrases, and decent listening comprehension, but here we speak a different dialect and use different pronunciation from the usual varieties taught (which are form Spain and Mexico). His next country was Uruguay, which speaks the same dialect with minor variations.
All people he met, other tourists and Argentinians, insisted on speaking English with him (a few of them German).
About a month in the country and he wasn't learning much of the language at all. It was frustrating to him, so we made the effort to speak Spanish as clearly and neutral as we could, but always ended up switching back to English sooner or later.
It was funny, as we had (different) strong accents in English, so it wasn't the best way to communicate either... XD
Nice guy, Wolfgang IIRC.
Thanks for the comment. A great illustration of how, in this guy’s case, he’d have been much better off simply learning more by himself until he could handle a basic conversation. Then he’d have much more chance of getting the people he met to speak Spanish with him
In other words, don't try to jump out of ZPD (the zone of proximal development) and improve your skills step by step constantly developing your knowledge and confidence. It's a good strategy for lazy people and for them who are afraid to take a risk. Now you don't need to go anywhere to immerse yourself into language. You can switch your thinking on target language and acquire it without any communication (in common sense) at all.
I like very much your video, although I don't totally agree with some issues. You said that you didn't learn from hearing hours of radio for a beginner, but there's something concrete you learn doing this, it is the sound of the language. Maybe you don't understand, but you get used to the sound and this is extremely helpful in my opinion. I did it on a continuous basis, when I was in my car I was hearing English, I think this helped me a lot. However, I really like your content, even though I don't agree with everything.
Immersion + Textbooks once you've grasped the language is the middle ground for me.
Could this be the reason course books start with really simple words and phrases? I'm quite sure that immersion is the fastest way to learn a language, provided that you do a lot of self-study or take classes from day one. Although the native speaker input will be more than the n+1 that Krashen prescribes, it is still input. Also, you do get more chances to interact with people in the language you're learning. If you feel you're not learning because you're too shy to interact with people, it's not immersion setting's fault. However, I do agree that most people will benefit more from an immersion experience if they already have a decent level of the language being learnt.
Yes, well if the question is whether large amounts of listening is the best way to supplement any course of study, the answer is undoubtedly yes!
As a kid immersion is a great idea but as an adult is harder.
It requires various methods to learn a language as an adult.
ive only been learning german for about 40ish days. At work before we open I can listen to something for one hour. So I've been listening to slow german podcasts. Some episodes i barely understand it, other episodes I understand quite a bit. 90% though is quite high. Even if I hear an episode 5 times, I generally only increase my understanding of that podcast when I learn new words externally, via anki or other methods. So, my comprehensible input is slowly increasing. Is there a better audio source I could be using? Or if just give it more time, when I start understanding more they will become of more value yeah?
Sometimes with normal spoken german I can understand the gist of what they are saying, but I guess Im probably only understanding 20% of it. The other thing I've only just started doing is, if I watch a video in english, I put german subtitles on and try to read along. Any interesting new vocab I find I write down to put into flashcards at a later date. Now, I don't know how accurate the auto subtitles are obviously, seems to work good if the person is speaking clearly, and it's only a small supplemental thing. Was denkst du?
If I understand less than like 95 percent, I get kicked out of understanding altogether, getting distracted, thinking about something else.
Better to *almost* get it, so that you stay hooked, and look up the 5 percent you don't know. Immerse on 95 percent material until you can handle native sources.
I see no point having stuff run in the background all the time. Will only become a stressor.
If you don't listen anyway, turn it off. Enjoy the silence. Recover. Then back to conprehensible input.
I have studied swedish 9 years, spanish 3 years and french 2 years in the school. I didn't learn those. I was hoping immersion would help me, but if it won't then i guess nothing will. English I know in this c- levels only because I lived in UK 5 months ( studing it 14 years didn't get me anywhere )
If you have some foundation, mass input (especially if you actively engage with it) will do wonders.
Olly, I wanna send you a lot of hugs!!
Immersion only works if you are doing it with shit you actually like not boring like going hours a day lectures or listening to radios. But if you like Video games then immerse yourself with video games, Anime then anime, you know stuff you actually enjoy and even then you need to pay attention to context clues in shows and games but not just throw yourself into the deep end watch a episode with subtitles then without or vice versa. But without context clues such as what a apple looks like you are not going to fucking know they are talking about a fucking apple. So if one is a beginner and wants a full immersion they need to treat it like they are a toddler and watch baby shows as they give context clues on what things are then from there they can go up and build upon it
I'm daily listening and watching movies and podcasts in English ( British❤) because I haven't been in English speaking countries yet, but I can't start new language ((
Sometimes it reminds me of the Fast Show sketches about off-roading ... "grrrrr lets off road!!!!!" ... does strike me sometimes that it's like a really hardcore "grrrrrrr .... lets immerse!!!!" kind of thing.
I did an immersion experiment while I was still in the beginner stages of Japanese, 30 days without using English ... set up my apartment so that everything was in Japanese, hid anything English, changed the settings of my computer, phone etc. I'd just taken a redundancy offer from the company I worked for in England and had got an offer to work in Japan - so I thought I had this month where, unlike before, I could actually spend a month fast-tracking my Japanese by trying to live in the language.
The good - well, by forcing myself to not speak English that month, I did learn quite a lot more Japanese than I'd have learned bumbling along at my gently-as-we-go rate ... and probably more importantly, I quickly found everyday things that I couldn't articulate in Japanese ... so would flick through textbooks or surf the internet to find out how I could say what I needed to say. I did iTalki sessions every couple of days ... and was repeating a lot of the same stuff. Maybe not the most cost effective way of making progress, but I guess when I finally moved to Japan, I could rattle out some basic Japanese reasonably confidently and felt rather accomplished.
The amusing - I had to email the company I worked for previously by writing emails in Japanese and then taking screen grabs from google translate and attaching them to my email correspondence. Then not reading the English responses, cutting and pasting that into google translate and trying to read kanji that I simply couldn't understand!!! whoops.
The bad - after moving to Japan, after the early days of feeling rather good about being able to make seemingly fluent basic conversation with a limited vocabulary ... I went through a period of feeling the only way I'd ever get to where I wanted to be would be by immersion ... but of course, I have to save up money to take the time off work etc etc ... so because I spend the majority of my time teaching English, it always felt like that goal was beyond me. Kind of like when I started playing guitar ... for I had mastered "3 blind mice" ... and now for my second step ... Cavatina!!!! he he he. Oh crap ... my fingers hurt!!!!
So ... I decided that what I could actually do, given my circumstances was focus on becoming literate ... kanji fits in with my day ... and after a while, it became something that I just love doing. Fluency went out of the window ... but in it's place, I started building my vocabulary and enjoying being able to make sense of the world of text around me. It's a bit like slow cooking really. I still plod away with speaking Japanese and very slowly, I'm making progress the whole time ... but it's become very much a lovely journey to savour. I've become less interested in getting somewhere fast ... it's like I've gone on a deeper dive into the language ... after wanting to be able to handwrite kanji, I started learning shodou last year ... and what I absolutely adore, is the fact that I can see my progress visually - just the smallest little things please me ... and as long as I keep going in that direction, I'm a very happy man. I think I've fallen in love with this language ... and it's no longer a race, it's no longer about trying to conquer it, master it, tame it or anything like that ... it's just become a friend that I love spending time with when opportunities arise. Sure, there's still a long long way to go ... but that doesn't matter anymore ... you know, immersion will be great when I can swim ... but there's no need to fill my boots with rocks and dive into an ocean under some foolish whim of "grrrrrr lets immerse".
I think you're attacking a strawman here.....I don't think anyone suggests that immersion = dropping yourself in a country and learning by osmosis.
whatsoever, I have to admit that I have never put any effort to learn english at all and until now did I realize the english I was taught at school and the english I naturally acquired or people often call it immersive learning are totally different to each other
I just wanna learn fast, I don't got time to be waiting 10 years to reach my goal, less than a year preferably, a year is pushing it, and I also hate studying
It's one strategy and everything depends on the individual/s and their own background and goals. For some it may be good and for others a traditional approach may be better. What you are saying makes a lot of sense.
Well said!
I would add that, in Wales, comprehensible input means input minus a level so the material is always slightly below your level. But the normal rules of linguisitcs don't seem to apply in Wales.
How can you learn a language with full immersion? Imagine landing in China and expect to learn the language without having a good base. You must have a basic understanding of a language before you can try immersion.
I would say it depends on the individual and his/her/they learning style. But I suppose it would not be controversial to say that it is helpful to learn foundational knowledge first.
Active listening is the best, you have to listen but translate stuff then comeback to the video, then try to establish patterns for grammer, remember certain useful words, try to put them in different contexts, you cannot just listen and hope you get it lol
I totally agree with the concept of comprehensible input!
This has mostly been my experience as a language learner. I do use immersion, but always in conjunction with more conventional study methods - one enhances the other.
I live in San Antonio, TX, and my experience with native Spanish speakers has not been helpful.
You cannot tell me someone thats going to a new country without any knowlege of the language there doesnt learn faster the language then someone with the same knowlege in his own country trying to learn the language.
Full inmersion is like taking a final exam, only advanced speakers should be in it.
Gotta disagree. Its the only method that actually helped me learn a language
There's a high chance you're doing immersion the wrong way by trying to understand everything 100% properly so it probably burned you out. Without immersion, any grammar information and vocabulary we study will be useless.
Grammar study activities themselves are a form of immersion, they just lack quantity and quality. Studying grammar too much is like we're trying to push a rock up a hill, then we stop to take a break and let the rock fall down halfway. It's a halfmeasure.
I did immersion since day one of my Japanese study. Now after a year I could read novels and consuming Japanese media on a regular basis.
I totally agree. I am starting to realize this as I am learning Japanese. I have tried Khazumoto's method, and gave up soon after (lol) If it is a language that is closer to your own native language, then immersion becomes much easier. However, it is much better to get a solid foundation, and then build on material that is not too hard for you to understand. Then, after that you can start focusing on learning the language more monolingually (with a monolingual dictionary and native material). Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this topic ^^ It was really insightful!
Thanks for the positive feedback!
You're very welcome! Keep up the great work ^-^
Remember that there has to be science behind all this information. By logic, the inmersion has to be graded or actually called by linguists and people specialized in language teaching weather EFL or ESL as created materials. With time the learner gets words, vocabulary and phrases to go on to the next level and start working on authentic materials. A beginer won´t understand a thing ? Not quite. A true beginer may. But it doesn´t mean that it is expected that a beginer must understand all. Actually just get a general idea and certain information. So, to say that inmersion doesn´t work would require a pretty well-based argument on science since it is not totally true and totally biased. It is commonplace that people who inmerse in language improve. Some other people but thhe question is why? Could be lack of words, lack of practice, irrealistic objectices (e.g. I want to speak with natives of any language when I jut know colors and maybe a hello) when inmersing into the new language. So many variables here to state that it just does not work because of few people couldn't improve from an actual mayority ! The beginer level allows the person do accomplish certain tasks. If the person can't well I guess this person is not a beginer! All I'm saying, inmersion is a tool used by A LOT of people. Even in my personal experience I can tell you, it's an excellent tool!
Thanks for your comment. It’s absolutely true that what I’m saying here is based on generalisations. But also bear in mind the definition I gave at the start. When you start to talk about graded immersion, it’s a different discussion. Science has been of limited help in assessing actual learning - when does input become intake? I suppose this is partly because we all learn differently. But, in an area with limited help from science, *generalisations* based on extensive personal experience are *generally* going to be generally helpful for people in *general*. What I’m really trying to do though is not give categorical advice but rather to help people who are not experienced in language learning to challenge certain preconceptions and feelings of “should” and “ought” which are all too common and can prevent people actually learning how they learn best - the ultimate goal.
One thing I can tell you is the beginer student should avoid inmersing into the language as a total. Instead inmerse into graded materials (there is lots of research on this and it's not a different discussion since there are comparisons between students learning in schools with authentic materials, EFL, ESL... (there are statistical studies) which are consider inmersion , natural inmersion, native's language inmersion, and other definitions I don't remember anymore from my university days. And then we have the graded materials as a way of simplified imput and inmersion for the learner to acquire new words and phrases as well as confidence and so on. There are plenty authors and studies that have defined the word 'lerning, language learning, language acuisition so there's plenty help from science.
What I see is that a good advice from experience souds like a great idea.
We all language techers and specialists do it, but it does not change the fact that is an advice, subjectivity lies within the advice we give to people . All-in-all it is always recommended to check the scientific literature so we ca avoid misconceptions. People do need something that works. Inmersion is not a bad idea, whether you are a beginer or not. The issue here is not having learned the tools to cope with some situations or having irrealistic goals. Although, how can we teach them that? are language teaching books enough? Language survival guides help for this? To tell the truth, I can't tell since it's a never ending discussion. Inmersion is recommended (mostly every language teacher and specialist can tell this) but should not be expected by the person to understand everything is said in the target language. But, logically, if the person simply does not possess the basics to even survive in a country, that person will fail, get demotivated, or even quit. If that person goes alone , it's worse. All I'm saying once again is that inmersion isn't bad if used properly , with realistic objectives and with the proper tools to get the important information and not to expect to understand all. Going to another country is a challenge . The advice is good, so good ad I do agree with it, honestly. But as language professionals we should promote it with but ways of how to deal with some situations, misunderstandings and ways of getting the information and how to pick it up from it if the person still is on the journey to inmerse even thogh that person is beginner ( although different authors define beginners with some differences).
I don't know, it's how I see in my experience and my knowledge of linguistics , applied linguistics, psycholinguistics and so other fiels I enjoy knowing,there's simply so much about languages . Thank you for your time. You're work is excellent! I hope people use your advice and that it give them the answers they are looking for to tame any target language they are leanring! It's a hard thing but everybody can learn a langauge! Ialso learned from you.Sincerely. Dan.
Tbh I only knew a little English but because of immersion I learned English and I am pretty fluent in it.
You sound fine to me Olly and there are Brits I wouldn't even know they are speaking English if I didn't know before hand. IM a native Australian English speaker.
Thanks! Yeah immersion is kinda cult like. I’ve asked beginner vocab questions and got told “because you’re an idiot unless you absorb your vocab by immersion” and no excuses for not doing immersion all day every day etc etc... put me off asking for help. Beginners need to build their base, and a much quicker way to build that base is actually study the basics, we have adult brains, babies can’t read etc, so we do have a head start on the basics. Immersion is a tool of many.
Great video, and great points, but weren't we all taught our native languages by immersion? Sure we go from speaking nonsense, but after a while we can speak full sentences pretty decently.
It's not quite that simple. As children, we are spoken at while, usually, simultaneously translated at. A parent'll ask "are you hungry for a cookie?" and maybe do something visual like rub their tummy to indicate hunger, and hold up or point at a cookie. When the kid says "me want cookie" the parent will correct their grammar and sentence structure with "it's 'I want a cookie please' dear". They don't just throw a random complicatedly-structured sentence out there into the air with no references, especially if the kid had, for example, no idea what a cookie was because they'd never had one.
Otherwise they might as well be saying "gibblety indicative object if amza preference?" to a two year-old, which means nothing to their brains even without a competing first/original language getting in the way of their understanding.
A lot of immersive-style learning takes place in settings where there are no visuals, no initial instruction on sentence structure or grammar (so a newbie student can parse where in a sentence to pay particular attention to, in order to catch key words or phrases), and little to no teaching of vocab. Which makes the so-called 'beginners' class a joke and waste of time, really.
Hi Olly , what happen send me the answer not the place hear. Need to finish what I start.
UA-cam?
I acquired English by watching too much UA-cam videos. 2016-2020