Put your artillery on the hill and arrange the rest of your army around it accordingly. The guns can shoot over your own troops. The copters can deploy behind the hill, or between the guns, to help keep other enemy flyers way.
Your Irondrakes get charged a lot, by design in some games. Have you considered Cinderblast Bombs for them? They boost the shortrange potential of the unit quite a bit and I think youd use them every game. I also think that your Hammerers are very expensive and dont seem to get much done most games. I feel like reducing the runes they have might be a start. I have a big unit of Warriors with GW and Hesitation as a big part of my core. Helps me spread the love a bit. Either way, I'd probably drop a rune before i started dropping bodies. Then maybe play a bit more with Drilled and the Anvil Conveyance spell to move them around more. You can completely redeploy them with those abilities. Remember FBIGO allows a reform and Drilled allows a redress on Give Ground, so you are unlikely to get stuck in a bad formation for long. Better to get where you need to be than spend the game wheeling and out of combat.
I think Cinderblast Bombs are going in my next test list for this week. The huge expensive combat unit is definitely something I want to tweak, since they rarely get to do anything useful other than survive.
Its a good observation about the highlands minis range. I have nothing bad to say about the range, the models are generally excellent, but man oh man do I prefer the pure 'nostalgia hit' of the official GW stuff, and the HM models do seem to be EVERYWHERE across BeardBook. ;)
I recommend on the anvil putting a rune of fortitude so in combat it's tough 6.. really worth it in my games so far. Also a thane bsb on shield bearers is something to consider : ) So the thane on shield beaers takes up 4 spaces (50x50) so you can shave off that many hammerers and it's basically the same cost!! I really like your reports! keep em coming.
I'll definitely be buying the new King on Shieldbearers model, so I'll make space for him in my lists when that day comes. Nice idea with the rune on the Anvil. I will try it out.
@@Andy2D6 Yeah I'm curious when the Ghorgon ran into the anvil what it's hit and wounds were like, do you remember? cause I'm thinking it would hit on 4's and wound on 3's but if you are tough six wounding on 4's could really help. You might be able to get away with 1 rune of fortitude for 30 points and take away 1 of your dispel scrolls for 25.. I know that cuts back on a bit of the dispel but maybe the anvil being so costly it's worth the extra tough.. I'm actually considering 2 runes of fortitude for tough 7 and just have the master rune of balance lol.. anyway your dwarves this game looked incredibly solid and you may have won if not for some tricky rules but at least you found out later so you can correct it. We make a mistake every game which is part of the learning curve but I love it!
My friend and I have been playing beastmen vs dwarfs. We are not really limited at all for models since we have big collections from WHFB. He has been running a gorgon, dragon ogres, chariots, pumbagors and chariots plus big block of bestigors and block of gors. Impact hits and gorgons are very hard against dwarves and dragon ogres have performed very well over the games. I went almost all in on a strict "anvil" strategy last game. Not all that fun but maybe a spoiler list for a tourney. I played a refused flank strategy, no war machines and minimal shooting to fill core requirement, copter, copter, bomber. From left edge 25 warriors, adjacent to 20 hammerers with drilled, hammers right flank supported by 25 ironbreakers. If your opponent wants to win they must attack your army. Whichever flank is attacked will be counter attacked by the drilled hammerer unit. I recommend breaking up any thunderer or xbow units into units of five. Takes longer to kill strategically placed units of 5 and gives more flexible deployment and overall puts out same number of shots. Honestly not my style of play but it does capitalize on the one thing dwarves are good at. It is a victory point denial strategy or as MtG players would say a "blue control deck". It is enough of a negative play experience that I wouldnt use it a lot for casual play except to test and practice with for tuning. If you are commited to taking a dwarf army to a tournament and want to win, well maybe it has some possibilities. If someone refuses to attack you, then it is going to be a tie rather than a loss in all likelihood. The challenge trick with hammerers is amazing and giving a unit drilled is way the hell better than it looks on paper. Gyrobomber sucks compared to copter for points efficency but depending on game size you may need a bomber because your special points got filled with ironbreakers and hammerers. Take a copter over bomber everytime if you have points in special. I would always take at least one flyer though. Only downside to hammerers is they are not super durable.
The problem with an army that castles like this is your opponent can just decide never to fight you. If attacking your defensive position cannot go well, why would htey engage you at all? A draw is better than a loss. I understand the MtG comparision but it doesnt really work, if the game goes long the control deck has a way to kill you, that's not the case here.
Is it worth considering keeping or moving the Thane out of the unit of Hammerers so it can perform 360 degree charges to defend the back lines. I wonder if the than had have split off from the main unit, maybe it could have helped handle the cygor
@@7nineofspades5That's why I would downsize the combat units since they would then still be able to perform and add 1 or 2 war machines to force your opponent to come and get you. Ironbreakers are very very good, but also very expensive. Slayers can hold a flank for long enough and they're cheaper. I never go Hammerers and Ironbreakers in one list. That's just too expensive.
@@7nineofspades5 I agree with your downsides and a control deck usually has a way to deck you or maybe some other win condition. I meant it as a metaphor not a one to one comparison. In a tournament if someone does not risk engaging you, then depending on the tournament win condition, for example total victory points over all games. They may take themselves out of the tournament. It is kind of dependent on the opponent as well. I am not claiming this is the best way, but it is a way. Dwarves do not have good movement, great warmachines, or decent magic (in my opinion). Also, if you are on bottom or mid tables, anyway, so is your opponent, so why wouldnt they risk it to have fun?
@@janekciscek288 Well, I really like my slayer models and would love the excuse to put my unit of long drong pirates on the board but slayers are just terrible, for any purpose in the current rules. Maybe there will be a list in the supplement that is good or perhadps the axe thrower will be good. The current best use I have for a slayer model is hanging on a beastman banner pole for my herdstone terrain.
Oh! Forgot to mention. Definitely give the Brimstone gun a chance on the gyro! Strength 5 AP -2 ! It’s one of those guns that chips wounds away at monsters!
It looks solid. Nice game. The dwarves look solid. Though recently i begun experimenting with the thought of taking longbeards instead of hammerers. They are less expensive and might cause people to be overconfident and charge them. Also ironbreakes are great but i'm experimwnting with putting in a thane to give them some killing power
@@Andy2D6 possibly I wanted to run hammerers but so far every time i rather took ironbreakers or longbeards as they are cheaper. Ironbreakers requires less defensive support and the longbeards are fine though the 5+ ward rune on them has been a saving grace so far. And the reduced cost means you might be able to sneak in that extra rune for them
Clearly the Anvil, or attached runesmith, has a green thumb. Look at that luxurious grass coming from under the anvil on was seemingly an inhospitable ground where this battle took place.
Cannons/war machines have the skirmishers special rule. Do they force a panic when they flee though friendly units? If they do not maybe it would be sound tactic to have them in front of units that can counter charge. Just flee as a charge reaction 🤔
Just been doing some digging to see if this is allowed. I can't find anything that says they can't flee. However, when a unit rallies it counts as having moved, so they wouldn't be able to shoot the next turn. Still something to explore, perhaps.
The issue with that is that each model turns, rather than the unit. So it will lose its shape. Redress the ranks only allows up to 5 to be moved to or from the front rank, so the shape of the unit might not be ideal after turning.
@@Andy2D6 ah ok, I forgot that turn is only about models. What happen if you reform? You lost all movement but at least you got a better direction of line of sight:)
3 warmachines, 2 organ guns no less, and no misfires the whole game? Nothing blew up? That was really lucky. But that seems to be the thing with dwarves. You have a pretty fine-tuned list, you have good tactics, you seem to have good rolls, doing tons of damage with shooting, and looking at the way the battle was going I would have expected a big victory. And yet the result was still a loss. It seems like everything else that isn't the hammerers just bleeds too much points.
I don't feel the Beastmen player got much for his points, even if some of those are actually Razorgor chariots, must be some really tooled up heroes. i would expect your pretty lean and mean Dwarfs to smash them tbh. Have been tempted by Beasts, a list i came up with is similar to this one but i went for Jabberslythes instead of Gorgons, correct me if i'm wrong but i think Jabberslythes might be the secret Anti-Fanatic Tekkers 😉.
I'm building a Troll Horde army, but do hope I don't face cheesy mass fire runes from dwarfs (on artillery etc), as that seems like a strong counter XD I need to think of what my strong counter is vs dwarfs.
@@Andy2D6 I mean if they knew they were facing Troll Horde. Seems clear to me that they'd choose those cheap magical flaming attacks. Unless I'm missing ways to load-up on flame resistance.
I have yet to face anything that flaming attacks actually help against. I am not sure how much Runesmiths and Iron Drakes pay for flaming attacks, but I am guessing it is too much. It seems there is more out there with special saves against flaming attacks than there are with vulnerabilities.
@@TobiasPatrick Flaming runes cost 10 points for artillery, for example. And totally bypass troll regeneration AND the regeneration rerolls that the Troll Horde list gets. 10 points to ignore two 5+ unmodified saves (albeit ones that don't help vs combat resolution, unlike real ward saves).
@mikefoster6018 If the flaming attacks are counted as magical attacks, they are probably including that rune to deal with ethereal units, which are a real pain more than trying to build against trolls.
I like to give people the benefit of the doubt if they have not played many games. That being said, forgetting the negatives on something like frenzy on the restraint, especially if they are remembering the positives it bestows, is a little eyebrow raising.
@@Andy2D6 if the opponent was forgetting the rule completely then that is a good sign it was just a mistake. Always a bad feeling when it happens and actually makes a difference in a game. I have started taking a highlighter to my printed sheets. Green for things like shield wall and red for resolute and yellow for stuff that has good and bad to it etc.
This was a friendly game at our local club. Was no need for me to conveniently forget rules when it was bad and use them when they were good. Just completely forgot about it! You’ll be glad to know I’ve made some handy frenzy markers to pop alongside the models going forward! :)
For balance, here is a comment that is less complimentary. Loving your videos, and the spruced up dwarfs look great…but I am not a fan of your play style. I am getting over it quickly, as I realize that you are a competitive player….but you are leaning into all of the things that keep me from tournaments. Anyway… carry on. :)
Actually it took me a long time to find battle reports made by competent players who know the rules and can use them to their advantage (also found Squarehammer and Chihammer). If somebody would rather watch how players just push models forward mindlessly until they meet the closest enemy and then roll dice to see what happens, paying no attention to actual probabilities of something happening, most TOW reports on YT right now are like that. As for boring gameplay, I'm sad to say the faction is to blame here, unfortunately:( I have always thought that design of Dwarfs in WFB leaves a lot to be desired - only reactive and pretty bad at this too in all editions that I have played :( their entire concept and force organisation would need to be revolutionised to make them interesting to play with and against.
Put your artillery on the hill and arrange the rest of your army around it accordingly. The guns can shoot over your own troops. The copters can deploy behind the hill, or between the guns, to help keep other enemy flyers way.
Your Irondrakes get charged a lot, by design in some games. Have you considered Cinderblast Bombs for them? They boost the shortrange potential of the unit quite a bit and I think youd use them every game.
I also think that your Hammerers are very expensive and dont seem to get much done most games. I feel like reducing the runes they have might be a start. I have a big unit of Warriors with GW and Hesitation as a big part of my core. Helps me spread the love a bit. Either way, I'd probably drop a rune before i started dropping bodies.
Then maybe play a bit more with Drilled and the Anvil Conveyance spell to move them around more. You can completely redeploy them with those abilities.
Remember FBIGO allows a reform and Drilled allows a redress on Give Ground, so you are unlikely to get stuck in a bad formation for long. Better to get where you need to be than spend the game wheeling and out of combat.
I think Cinderblast Bombs are going in my next test list for this week.
The huge expensive combat unit is definitely something I want to tweak, since they rarely get to do anything useful other than survive.
I can’t wait for the Made to Order Bugmans Cart..
Its a good observation about the highlands minis range.
I have nothing bad to say about the range, the models are generally excellent, but man oh man do I prefer the pure 'nostalgia hit' of the official GW stuff, and the HM models do seem to be EVERYWHERE across BeardBook. ;)
I recommend on the anvil putting a rune of fortitude so in combat it's tough 6.. really worth it in my games so far. Also a thane bsb on shield bearers is something to consider : ) So the thane on shield beaers takes up 4 spaces (50x50) so you can shave off that many hammerers and it's basically the same cost!! I really like your reports! keep em coming.
I'll definitely be buying the new King on Shieldbearers model, so I'll make space for him in my lists when that day comes.
Nice idea with the rune on the Anvil. I will try it out.
@@Andy2D6 Yeah I'm curious when the Ghorgon ran into the anvil what it's hit and wounds were like, do you remember? cause I'm thinking it would hit on 4's and wound on 3's but if you are tough six wounding on 4's could really help. You might be able to get away with 1 rune of fortitude for 30 points and take away 1 of your dispel scrolls for 25.. I know that cuts back on a bit of the dispel but maybe the anvil being so costly it's worth the extra tough.. I'm actually considering 2 runes of fortitude for tough 7 and just have the master rune of balance lol.. anyway your dwarves this game looked incredibly solid and you may have won if not for some tricky rules but at least you found out later so you can correct it. We make a mistake every game which is part of the learning curve but I love it!
My friend and I have been playing beastmen vs dwarfs. We are not really limited at all for models since we have big collections from WHFB. He has been running a gorgon, dragon ogres, chariots, pumbagors and chariots plus big block of bestigors and block of gors. Impact hits and gorgons are very hard against dwarves and dragon ogres have performed very well over the games. I went almost all in on a strict "anvil" strategy last game. Not all that fun but maybe a spoiler list for a tourney. I played a refused flank strategy, no war machines and minimal shooting to fill core requirement, copter, copter, bomber. From left edge 25 warriors, adjacent to 20 hammerers with drilled, hammers right flank supported by 25 ironbreakers. If your opponent wants to win they must attack your army. Whichever flank is attacked will be counter attacked by the drilled hammerer unit. I recommend breaking up any thunderer or xbow units into units of five. Takes longer to kill strategically placed units of 5 and gives more flexible deployment and overall puts out same number of shots. Honestly not my style of play but it does capitalize on the one thing dwarves are good at. It is a victory point denial strategy or as MtG players would say a "blue control deck". It is enough of a negative play experience that I wouldnt use it a lot for casual play except to test and practice with for tuning. If you are commited to taking a dwarf army to a tournament and want to win, well maybe it has some possibilities. If someone refuses to attack you, then it is going to be a tie rather than a loss in all likelihood. The challenge trick with hammerers is amazing and giving a unit drilled is way the hell better than it looks on paper. Gyrobomber sucks compared to copter for points efficency but depending on game size you may need a bomber because your special points got filled with ironbreakers and hammerers. Take a copter over bomber everytime if you have points in special. I would always take at least one flyer though. Only downside to hammerers is they are not super durable.
The problem with an army that castles like this is your opponent can just decide never to fight you. If attacking your defensive position cannot go well, why would htey engage you at all? A draw is better than a loss. I understand the MtG comparision but it doesnt really work, if the game goes long the control deck has a way to kill you, that's not the case here.
Is it worth considering keeping or moving the Thane out of the unit of Hammerers so it can perform 360 degree charges to defend the back lines. I wonder if the than had have split off from the main unit, maybe it could have helped handle the cygor
@@7nineofspades5That's why I would downsize the combat units since they would then still be able to perform and add 1 or 2 war machines to force your opponent to come and get you.
Ironbreakers are very very good, but also very expensive. Slayers can hold a flank for long enough and they're cheaper. I never go Hammerers and Ironbreakers in one list. That's just too expensive.
@@7nineofspades5 I agree with your downsides and a control deck usually has a way to deck you or maybe some other win condition. I meant it as a metaphor not a one to one comparison. In a tournament if someone does not risk engaging you, then depending on the tournament win condition, for example total victory points over all games. They may take themselves out of the tournament. It is kind of dependent on the opponent as well. I am not claiming this is the best way, but it is a way. Dwarves do not have good movement, great warmachines, or decent magic (in my opinion). Also, if you are on bottom or mid tables, anyway, so is your opponent, so why wouldnt they risk it to have fun?
@@janekciscek288 Well, I really like my slayer models and would love the excuse to put my unit of long drong pirates on the board but slayers are just terrible, for any purpose in the current rules. Maybe there will be a list in the supplement that is good or perhadps the axe thrower will be good. The current best use I have for a slayer model is hanging on a beastman banner pole for my herdstone terrain.
Oh! Forgot to mention. Definitely give the Brimstone gun a chance on the gyro! Strength 5 AP -2 ! It’s one of those guns that chips wounds away at monsters!
It looks solid. Nice game.
The dwarves look solid. Though recently i begun experimenting with the thought of taking longbeards instead of hammerers. They are less expensive and might cause people to be overconfident and charge them. Also ironbreakes are great but i'm experimwnting with putting in a thane to give them some killing power
Hammerers seem great on paper, but the struggle is getting them into the fights you want. So maybe the cheaper options are worth a try.
@@Andy2D6 possibly
I wanted to run hammerers but so far every time i rather took ironbreakers or longbeards as they are cheaper.
Ironbreakers requires less defensive support and the longbeards are fine though the 5+ ward rune on them has been a saving grace so far. And the reduced cost means you might be able to sneak in that extra rune for them
Clearly the Anvil, or attached runesmith, has a green thumb. Look at that luxurious grass coming from under the anvil on was seemingly an inhospitable ground where this battle took place.
Cannons/war machines have the skirmishers special rule. Do they force a panic when they flee though friendly units? If they do not maybe it would be sound tactic to have them in front of units that can counter charge. Just flee as a charge reaction 🤔
Just been doing some digging to see if this is allowed. I can't find anything that says they can't flee. However, when a unit rallies it counts as having moved, so they wouldn't be able to shoot the next turn. Still something to explore, perhaps.
I think with hammerers you should turn them 90degrees to face left or right sight , I think it’s half your movement, instead of move and wheel;)
The issue with that is that each model turns, rather than the unit. So it will lose its shape. Redress the ranks only allows up to 5 to be moved to or from the front rank, so the shape of the unit might not be ideal after turning.
@@Andy2D6 ah ok, I forgot that turn is only about models. What happen if you reform? You lost all movement but at least you got a better direction of line of sight:)
@@tizianomerello6530 Yes. Reforming is an option if you have space.
3 warmachines, 2 organ guns no less, and no misfires the whole game? Nothing blew up? That was really lucky.
But that seems to be the thing with dwarves. You have a pretty fine-tuned list, you have good tactics, you seem to have good rolls, doing tons of damage with shooting, and looking at the way the battle was going I would have expected a big victory. And yet the result was still a loss. It seems like everything else that isn't the hammerers just bleeds too much points.
My experiments with points denial and combat units didn't go well so far either. The enemy found it very easy to stay away from my big combat blocks.
new player to old world, do organ guns have true line of sight to shoot over the hammers and irondrakes in the front arc??
You can draw line of sight to Large Targets over your own troops.
War Machines can also make a free pivot before firing, so essentially 360 vision.
I don't feel the Beastmen player got much for his points, even if some of those are actually Razorgor chariots, must be some really tooled up heroes. i would expect your pretty lean and mean Dwarfs to smash them tbh. Have been tempted by Beasts, a list i came up with is similar to this one but i went for Jabberslythes instead of Gorgons, correct me if i'm wrong but i think Jabberslythes might be the secret Anti-Fanatic Tekkers 😉.
The ultimate anti-Fanatic strategy seems to be standing on a hill.
Ghorgons were a big chunk of points. And two of the chariots had Wargors on the back. Was trying them out as a differential to dragon ogres!
T2 what did your Irondrakes stand and shoot do to those chariots?
Very little. Not sure if they even did a single wound.
@@Andy2D6 I'm guessing the chariots were too close for the THT to shoot, I'm seriously considering spending the points on cinder blast bombs for them
@@jtrain9926 I don't think they were too close. It just missed. 😅
I'm building a Troll Horde army, but do hope I don't face cheesy mass fire runes from dwarfs (on artillery etc), as that seems like a strong counter XD I need to think of what my strong counter is vs dwarfs.
In the games I've played so far, flaming attacks have been a hindrance more than a help. It seems a lot of units are resistant to them in some way.
@@Andy2D6 I mean if they knew they were facing Troll Horde. Seems clear to me that they'd choose those cheap magical flaming attacks. Unless I'm missing ways to load-up on flame resistance.
I have yet to face anything that flaming attacks actually help against. I am not sure how much Runesmiths and Iron Drakes pay for flaming attacks, but I am guessing it is too much. It seems there is more out there with special saves against flaming attacks than there are with vulnerabilities.
@@TobiasPatrick Flaming runes cost 10 points for artillery, for example. And totally bypass troll regeneration AND the regeneration rerolls that the Troll Horde list gets. 10 points to ignore two 5+ unmodified saves (albeit ones that don't help vs combat resolution, unlike real ward saves).
@mikefoster6018 If the flaming attacks are counted as magical attacks, they are probably including that rune to deal with ethereal units, which are a real pain more than trying to build against trolls.
Beer versus BLOOD. 🐷
You have to admit, rock slime does sound quite appetising.
@@Andy2D6I should not knock it until I try it.
So disappointed to have seen an enchantment without the dedicated accent
I have successfully got Honest Wargamer Rob to start pronouncing it my way during his games.
I like to give people the benefit of the doubt if they have not played many games. That being said, forgetting the negatives on something like frenzy on the restraint, especially if they are remembering the positives it bestows, is a little eyebrow raising.
I don't recall the positives of Frenzy being used either, so I think it was just forgotten.
@@Andy2D6 if the opponent was forgetting the rule completely then that is a good sign it was just a mistake. Always a bad feeling when it happens and actually makes a difference in a game. I have started taking a highlighter to my printed sheets. Green for things like shield wall and red for resolute and yellow for stuff that has good and bad to it etc.
This was a friendly game at our local club. Was no need for me to conveniently forget rules when it was bad and use them when they were good. Just completely forgot about it! You’ll be glad to know I’ve made some handy frenzy markers to pop alongside the models going forward! :)
Squigs and pump carts will handle those hammers. :)
Your optimism will be your downfall.
For balance, here is a comment that is less complimentary. Loving your videos, and the spruced up dwarfs look great…but I am not a fan of your play style. I am getting over it quickly, as I realize that you are a competitive player….but you are leaning into all of the things that keep me from tournaments. Anyway… carry on. :)
When Rem gets back from tour, I'm planning to do some more narrative games. Possibly also featuring Annie.
Actually it took me a long time to find battle reports made by competent players who know the rules and can use them to their advantage (also found Squarehammer and Chihammer).
If somebody would rather watch how players just push models forward mindlessly until they meet the closest enemy and then roll dice to see what happens, paying no attention to actual probabilities of something happening, most TOW reports on YT right now are like that.
As for boring gameplay, I'm sad to say the faction is to blame here, unfortunately:( I have always thought that design of Dwarfs in WFB leaves a lot to be desired - only reactive and pretty bad at this too in all editions that I have played :( their entire concept and force organisation would need to be revolutionised to make them interesting to play with and against.