Good v. Bad Verdi Singing | Soprani 1/2 (Ponselle, Callas, Nilsson, etc. v. Netrebko, Damrau, etc.)
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Good examples are: Rosa Ponselle, Anita Cerquetti, Maria Callas, Irina Arkhipova, Birgit Nilsson, Sylvia Sass, Grace Bumbry, Leyla Gencer, Elena Obratzsova.
Bad examples are: Anna Netrebko, Diana Damrau, Elina Garanca, Christa Ludwig, Marilyn Horne
This is not really about old school vs. new school since some of the "bad" examples are older than/the same age as the "good" examples. It is mainly about open (pharyngeal) singing vs. restricted singing in the mask (Damrau, Horne, Ludwig) or throaty singing (Netrebko, Garanca), or some combination of both.
Anna and Diana must have a personal grudge against Verdi bc how on earth does one sound like an alien ray gun, and the other sound like she’s just run the 100 meter sprint 💀
LOL perfect description
Very bad tecnic!
Agreed, Anna in my opinion is very overrated and at times seems to be screaming
It seems more like some people have a personal grudge against Anna and Diana. Some "opera fans" seem to have a greater passion for bashing singers than for opera itself. It's pathetic and tiresome.
The aliens apparently like Squillo sound more than athletes :)
This really highlights just how difficult Verdi is to get right, and what it sounds like when it goes so wrong!
No the new singers are not trained well and have poor techniques
May I suggest, Monserrat Caballe? She may bring a smile to you and a heart lifted to many stunned moments of pleasure. She was, in my opinion, the bella voce that one is taken to a transcendent experience. Thank you for the post...
Love Caballe! a great voice! :D
@@francisca1378 lol. But how her "singing" at the end of career? Lets forget? Baskov, singing with a freak baritono mercury, "operatic" singing. Sure?
@@Monnarchmonnarchy I've seen you everywhere, insulting everyone who has made little mistake in singing. Caballe was great and that's it: it is absolutely natural to not be in the greatest shape when you old.
@@Monnarchmonnarchy first Cabellé made a courier for herself that last decades. You cannot even hold a match to her you basic, classless, tasteless trollop. Secondly she was in her 80's so her body could not support her voice the same way it did years prior, if you are half as compitent an artist , wait calling you an artist would be making you out to be more intelligent than actually are so I'll end it there.
Caballé was a perpetual scooper with an ugly tone. At her best she was good.
Netrebko is NO dramatic soprano not even Spinto!!!!
She is if anything a lyric!!!!!
She is a lyric
Una lirica muy muy subdesarrollada, al lado de una soubrette..
If you listen to her earlier work (90s), which is much better, netrebko actually has the vocal style of a coloratura, but she used such poor technique so often that she ruined her voice.
As a whole, Christa Ludwig does not belong to the bad group
as a whole, sure. but on that piece I think she screams on the high notes, spreads her mouth - to me that is bad technique, but she definitely isn't as bad as many of the others. And she does have good moments in other parts of her repertoire.
@@francisca1378 what do you mean "as bad" lol she is sensational in everything
@@joseabraham8038 i mean she screams on the high notes. not as bad as some other singers, but definitely not good.
She's not good at Verdi tho.
@@francisca1378 But, interestingly enough, she does a pretty good Marschallin.
Thanks so much for these comparisons. They are teaching my ear to be more discerning and truly appreciate how truly great some singers really are. (And how much over-rated the lesser ones are!) More please?
Thanks for the analysis. It was most enlightening.
I no longer attend operas because the modern singing style for a darker tone and "screamier" style does not appeal to me, and I find regietheater ridiculous.
….music aside, what’s up with the see- through camisole of Netrebko….I guess “if the vocal acting doesn’t assist you, utilise all your assets”… Maria would be turning in her grave…
Tits replaced bellcanto
What is wrong with Netrebko's Head?!? It never stops moving
2:17 an ambulance siren ?? hahahaha
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
One thing about Damrau that I've always appreciated is that, regardless of technique, her acting/dramatic interpretation has always been consistently strong and in tandom with her voice (even coming through in the audio-only examples displayed here). For any singer, if one's truthful, grounded acting leads to _slightly less-than-perfect vocalism_ (ahem, Callas…), it hits me at my emotional core far more than a technically flawless vocal performance from a singer that is in any way detached from the dramatic intent of the work. Many of the singers here and elsewhere have both qualities present in their work (even in the modern age), and they deserve to be respected in both regards.
All of the singers shown here have their strengths in places (even outside of Verdi), so to deem internationally-acclaimed artists as “bad" overall is, in my view, highly irresponsible. For example, Horne's mask singing may be deemed awkward for *some* Verdi roles, but her coloratura work is unsurpassed in bel canto and Baroque repertoire (where I find her mask singing to be oddly appealing and endearing, particularly in her portrayal of trouser roles).
Damrau has always driven me nuts: I can't figure it out. Good actress or no, I cannot get past the vocalism.
Damrau is annoying and she damaged her voice. Her vibrato is now massively wide and she lost her high notes.
Except Callas was at least aware her voice was failing her - in her letters, she talks of how she developed bad habits from the strain and stress of performance, not to mention the clear case of chronic fatigue the poor woman suffered from (she had to take months off just to rest sometimes) and when she felt she couldn't perform to her standard anymore, she stopped, only briefly coming back in the early 70s for a concert tour. And frankly, even her worst performances (such as Norma in Paris in the 60s) eclipse some of the ones I heard from the singers in this video on a technical level alone - better support, much more open, and a clear sense of pitch; all things a musician must strive for, even on their worst days.
Damrau doesn't seem to want to take the hint - she used to have all of the dramatic elements you described, but her intonation was much better, and her vibrato wasn't the whole-step wobble it became. Same for Netrebko - she used to be much better, but then her voice failed her as her technique simply couldn't keep up with the roles she was trying to sing. It's as if they lost the musicality they had in youth.
Being internationally acclaimed doesn't actually mean you're good - you're just acclaimed. I have met phenomenal vocalists who far surpass their colleagues at the Lyric Opera or the Met, but due to politics or sheer dumb luck (mostly politics), the inferior vocalists keep getting the lead roles - name recognition and marketing and all that mess play in, too. I suppose there's also the drastic shift in technique during the 20th Century that could have also led to this decline...but that's speculative.
@@martynasmatutis8284 we only know about callas’s letters because she passed, how do you know that damrau doesn’t have those same concerns? i don’t think it’s fair to try to predict what’s going on in her head, even if you dislike her as a singer.
She compensates her poor vocals with over acting.
Netrebko is awful, regardless of the composers
I have to point out - Gencer is a lyric soprano, not a dramatic. Her voice is just very developed, like Muzio’s, Tucci’s or Milanov’s.
I consider Milanov a dramatic soprano, not a lyric. And Gencer sings Lady Macbeth, and I think she is much heavier than, Tucci or Muzio. I would say kind of the opposite, Gencer is a lyric soprano who just has a really well develop top and is very agile. But these categories aren't really… set in stone, and everyone's voice is very different.
@@francisca1378 You are right about fachs, they aren’t set in stone, but now everyone is so undeveloped, fachs are meaningless when once they were useful 🙄
@@xxsaruman82xx87 really! it is weird because half the time you have a naturally heavy voice singing in too light of a repertoire, whereas other times you have a naturally light voice singing too heavy of a repertoire! Everything is confused…
@@francisca1378 Sutherland set that as a precedent. She was a dramatic soprano who was forced to lighten her voice to sing light bel canto roles. When she began singing Norma and even Turandot (in the studio), her technique was too far gone for her to change it. Such a shame. She may have been one of the greatest Wagnerian sopranos of the second-half of the 20the century. After Nilsson, there wasn’t really anyone.
@@xxsaruman82xx87 definitely! sutherland is such a waste… she could have been great! In a way, I feel like Callas did something similar - not that she lightened her technique , the way Sutherland did - but just the idea that she could sing so many different parts in different repertoires, I think helped to lead towards a misunderstanding of voice types.
Totally disagree about Marilyn Horne - one of THE great voices.
I'm also a fan of Horne but I don't think she came off well in the selected aria
You hev to clean your ears if you think that this incredibly NASAL, HOARSE and SMALL voice is "great"! Even Horne herself said that she like to sing "ugly"
Спасибо за Архипову и Образцову! Это космос!
Agreed. The ones who could actually sing were also not often cast to be in underwear, for whatever reason.
Callas The supreme Queen ❤️❤️❤️❤️
Diana Damrau is painful... I loved her Queen of the Night years ago :(
Her prime ended very fast few years after singing heavy arias, quite disappointing. (Queen of the Night's two arias particularly)
Dame Gwyneth Jones is missing here.
My favourites: Mirella Frénico and Angela Gheorghiu.
I like Bumbry in her category. And Nilsson in hers. Gencer in her category. They were all great!
Gee, I wonder why Garanca is so loud compared to the orchestra...
😂 Garanca Is the worst "mezzo" I have ever heard. She has vocal means for a mediocre choir singer, nothing more.
"LOUD"?! When she screams maybe! But even in a small room with only a piano she sounds quite small and weak (although you think first that she sounds "dramatic" and "dark")! I liked her before but I see that she sings totally unhealthy (probably because she's not even a mezzo) and have no strength to sing the REAL mezzo repertoire! Her latest performance of Brahms Alto Rhapsody is really disappointing - it's obvious that it's NOT her real voice...
I loved Sylvia Sass but she wrecked her voice so something must not have been right? I like Elina’s voice as a mezzo. I know Joan Sutherland criticized the new style of voice training and singing but in live performances many who you call bad sound amazing. That said Bumbry was awesome.
Wonderful comparison! But why is Ludwig bad?
harsh tone, I mean she is strong so she gets points there, but she always sounds quite … scream-y to me (plus, I cannot make out the words very well so that is not good). She definitely isn't the worst example and she is better on some other recordings, but I wanted to throw in a few older singers so it doesn't seem so like I'm only criticizing modern people. Even a really big/heavy voice should still sound beautiful!
@@francisca1378 I think Scotto or Cossotto would have beeen good bad examples. Both are idolised, but neither old school singers in any sense of the word.
@@xxsaruman82xx87 yes, especially Scotto! Cossotto is really bad too. I always feel bad for her though because she seems… nice, but … yikes her technique is so bad!
@@francisca1378 I agree, Ludwig isn’t suited to this repertoire. I genuinely think she was a dramatic soprano, not a mezzo. She was a great Ortrud, and Leonore.
@@francisca1378 I agree, Ludwig isn’t suited to this repertoire. I genuinely think she was a dramatic soprano, not a mezzo. She was a great Ortrud, and Leonore.
Vozes belas sem dúvida porém, a voz de Maria Callas destaca-se pelo tsmanho e pelo alcance quase ilimitado!❤❤❤❤❤❤❤🇵🇹
You can't find unless one good singer in live?
I was never a fan of Netrebko. She had her great moments, but she's not a coloratura by any stretch. She's best suited for heavy-weight parts, such as Marfa in "Czar's Bride". Also she sings with absolutely dead face, which is a pain to watch.
you can't be serious !
The clips are Annoyingly short and so cut up it's impossible to tell what's going on. Got me all Crazy trying to listen .😱
I enjoyed this video! Actually, I think that a vibrato, as opposed to a wobble or a bleat, is a function of good breath support. If you make progress towards the ideal of "effortless" you will sound better over time...
Damrau is an absolute horror in everything she sings.
Terrible at 2:16 and I am so glad I was not in the audience.
excellent video, and genuine question, how do they manage to be so successful these modern singers, I just marketing?
3:53 I thought he holds him not to fall down)
Christa Ludwig does not sound bad, only thing is she misses Verdi and Lady McBeth by a mile.
rosa ponselle singing is always at full voice, it's like a complete orchestra
there were better don carlo-o don fatale example than her (the old school one) Louis Kirbky Lunn, Ebe Stignani etc
my favourite is Elena Nicolai.
@@francisca1378 elena nicolai high notes was great but over all Kirbky Lunn was better technically and artistically
@@chairulazmi3830 Kirkby Lunn is more of a contralto than a mezzo, so the recording of her singing it is transposed down anyway (not sure if she ever sang it in the original key). I adore her, but I also think Nicolai has great technique and artistic skill. I really wouldn't call one better than the other, or if I would… it is a very small difference.
@@francisca1378 the 1911' recording was in the original key. elena nicolai was great especially high notes even compare to soprano but her middle wasnt that great and also the fioratura scale.
@@chairulazmi3830 I think Nicolai has a great middle range, to me she really has perfect technique
and the 1911 recording on youtube is transposed down
totally agree I cant bear to listen to damarau and her rendition of the Queen of the Night Aria makes my ears bleed. If you enter in UA-cam search for Queen of the Night Aria, Damarau is at the forefront of the results which is just awful. Try finding Edda Moser at the top there, you really have to dig and yet her version completely smashes Damarau
Thank you very much for the tip, Edda is really a beautiful Queen of the night
1:19 I am not sure about "coloratura" more like lirico-spinto imo.
Interessane questa idea di paragonare vari soprani di differenti epoche storiche. Ma troppo brevi le frasi musicali. Quindi difficile stabilire confronti critici. Inoltre, meglio sarebbero i confronti fra voci dello stesso registro! Ad ogni modo , grazie!
With her overacting Damrau always seems to think that she is the Theda Bara of opera😂
😂😂😂😂😂
Netrebko 7:26 auge do fracasso....péssima.
Obratzova was amazing, Horne was not a dramatic mezzo but she did nice
Where is legendary Renata Tibaldi ??!!😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
Where,indeed
I thank God and Maria Callas who recorded all this Operas and I don't have to listen to any of this singers. The majority of the singers shown in this video make feel like crying.
2:13 ambulance car
What was the aria Rosa Ponselle and Anna Netrebko sang? In 00:04
miserere from il trovatore (its a duet)
It's such an insolence and such a shame that some people still think they can argue about Maria Callas' voice, just for the sake of feeling they're worthy of making such comments.
I pity those people.
did only i laugh at Garcia 🤣?
I don't care for these comparisons. I prefer Caballé over Callas anytime. The newer sopranos have matured and their performances of classical roles are a delight to watch and listen to.... To claim that people do not like opera because of singing like Netrebko is silly. People did not like opera because it became entirely too exclusive and reserved for the best voice, the highest note, etc... etc... losing the performative aspect that is more inclusive. I grew up with opera in records... and now that it is accessible, I have come back thanks to the contemporary ones you think are inferior. They ARE recovering opera from its stifling snobbism.
It’s a good job that Caballe is on record as saying that Maria was the very best, and she took a huge part of her motivation from Callas , even flying to Paris to see Maria to get her help with her Norma, as she was having such a hard time being able to do it!! Callas was prima donna assoluta…end of!!
Christa Ludwig sang the nicest 😊❤
Что нам остается? Нетребко и Дамрау? Бедные мы бедные…😢
co damrau robi w tym zestawieniu to jakis zart ponselle i callasnajlepsze
I think it is very bold to say, that they are bad.
The newer singers just aren’t lyrical. They don’t sing, they mimic. For me, it’s a phrasing issue.
1. Rosa Ponselle 2. Maria Callas 3. der Rest ist zum Vergessen. Entschuldigung für diese Ausdrucksweise. Aber singen ist nicht schreien !!!!!
Agree with your dichotomies EXCEPT the unmerited opprobrium for Marilyn Horne: the alternative singer (although she may have been very fine in her prime) gives a rendering that is simply too chest-heavy and very ponderously emphatic. (for me it's over-done & boring!) Darker & breathier does not = more dramatic. Plus she goes slightly flat on one or two notes. Btw the text is about being petrified with a sense of foreboding and dread.
I agree I thought the elderly obsatrova sounded awful very raspy, Horne much better.
In my opinion, listening to 1 measure at a time is really not the way to listen to music.
Hace falta ser osado para presentar de esta manera tan burda y simplista lo que no deja de ser tu subjetiva y ,cuanto menos dudosa, opinión .
Quot capita, tot sententiae
Ok hm don't hear anything bad in that first Netrebko example? Except maybe that at 0:16 the b' is too low and closer to bb', but that's just 1 note.
That 1st section does sound more stoic and less fiery, but, ironically for the "anti-wobble" camp, a crucial component of the fire and power in the 1st example is the continuous vibrato - while Netrebko's voice sounds very straight.
Not strawmannimg the video here, but a lot of the commenters around here are going with this "strong vibrato in these modern recordings bad", so lol idk
It doesn't really come across as vibrato. It comes across as warbling between two quarter tones. Like what is that? I grew up not liking opera due to this sound. If I had grown up with the Old School girls, I might have come to actually appreciate opera.
@@SkyCloudSilence I'll listen again, but didn't I say that the "good" old-school non-Netrebko example had MORE vibrato lol?
Also vibrato is obviously pitch-based, not amplitude (by default at least), so of course it's gonna be "warbling between two pitches" - quarter note, less than quarter note, sometimes even up to a semitone or whole tone (wider than that has also happened).
Ymmv how various people like or don't like it, however there obviously should be a wide variety of performance styles incl. vibrato-less, makes sense.
@@username45739 Yea, I think in a lot of cases it simply comes down to individual preference. Even the "bad" singers here are obviously not like "bad" bad. I certainly could never do it. I'm probably the worst kind of critic, lol. Just sniping from my lazyboy chair 😆😈😉
@@SkyCloudSilence "This sound" (summed up too noticeable + permanent vibrato + "darkened" timbres) is generally hit and miss for me, there's cases where it sounds great, cases where it sounds grating, and lots of inbetween - depends on the particulars of how it sounds, the degrees of it, and how it fits the music/character etc.
If you browse around for various performances, chances are you'll reach the same conclusion although who knows lol - this corner of buffs clearly hate it, so reactions evidently vary.
I'll probably go rewatch this clip soon and check who vibrated more in this instance, we'll see lol
With Netrebko poor Leonora looks and sounds more like Medea or the Queen from Zauberfloete 🤭🤦♀️
In my opinion...in the scenes where she comes out in that sort of nightgown with robe outfit...she looks like she just wandered in from a Sleep-Number-Bed advertisement...or an ad for Certa Perfect Sleeper beds. And the sounds that she makes...with her top notes she sounds like she is auditioning for a horror film...one of those scream queen roles of the 1980s.
Bumbry 😍 Tebaldi nowhere though?
Elina Garanca is actually very good!!!!
I beg to differ. She still sings head voice on her low notes
Nilsson ❤
WTF that vibrato at 2:19!
a dying chihuahua
Actually most operas look for the best looking singers rather than the most melodious voices, sad but true.
You are kidding. Look at all those obese whales that sing Bruennhilde and Sieglinde.
I can't get over that "trill" from Damrau. Like what even was that??
Sounded like a weird car alarm
Are you talking about 2:16? That sounds like something I'd make by accident on one of my synthesizers.
Povero Verdi😢
As a conductor, it seems to me that Netrebko learns parts without scores, on ear. She sings incorrect rhythms and pitch. Can anybody stop this?….
Only this piece?
Does anyone care?
@@orientaldagger6920no
Netrebko has been fooling a lot of people for a long time; a case of eye appeal and hype over real vocal or musical skill
The orchestras are tuned to different notes. Modern orchestras tune higher. And to be difficult, different ones tune to different frequencies.
I'm a light lyric soprano. I stick with Mozart and Rossini. Not every classically trained voice is meant to sing opera. I love singing art songs in other languages, oratorio, sacred music, operetta, etc. It's as if everyone wants to sing opera and also seeing and hearing 7 year olds is nothing but a set up to destroy the voice before they even get the chance to mature..
Our voices are gifts and they should be treated with care.. I always say that anyone can sing but have realistic expectations and keep it fun! My 1 1/2 cents..
Peace
very well said! I agree! :)
It’s ambition and boredom I think that get the best of these modern singers…to be fair, most opera roles for light lyric sopranos tend to be kind of the same old stuff dramatically; however, though if one digs in more clearly, the ingenue roles can have just as much to offer in dramatic/character complexity (Pamina in the magic flute for example is this, even though she’s a light lyric soprano, she doesn’t always fit the mode of an ingenue well).
There are roles however written with kids and vocal limitations of their light voices in mind in operas; for example, pick a Britten opera. ANY Britten opera. There are probably a bunch of roles written with kids in mind in them; some of them even have leading roles.
O and U vowels only
In my opinion it's a lack of patience and discipline. They want to be great without that much effort.
I would think you did like Cecilia bartoli. She was discovered by ppl of the classical music industry to sing Mozart and rossini. I love rossini & strongly like Mozart.
Callas in 1949 nailing Abigaille. Verdi’s queen.
Leyla Gencer the best!
I couldn’t agree with you more! It’s very rare to find a good voice teacher in the world. They are all afraid of the chest resonance which in my opinion is what feeds head voice and keeps the voice healthy.
Finaly someone finally said it
@@lutandomhlalase4416 There's a lot of people that say this, but sadly so few are listening or paying attention.
Correct BUT the pupils are not humble for music & interested in real singing ! They search for TV/UA-camcareers & 🎤 singing /voiceuse like popsinging & reduced Hollywood or Sadolin technique ! That’s the truth !
@@artdanks4846 That because youtube comment section teachers do not know much about singing either.
What fucking chest Resonance...from scientific point of view there is no Resonance in the chest..it is in your mouth and larynx..and nose ..not under the Vokal chords
The training of bigger voice types is a lost art. We are afraid to train big voices. Afraid of chest resonance, which as others have said is what gives the voice power and health
La Netrebko est épouvantable dans Macbeth!
All the bad singers are singing with a significant amount of heaviness. Their voice doesn’t flow like the good singers do, to the point that the bad singers sound overdone and slow because of how heavy it is. The good voice needs to soar and fill the throat and mouth, all while resonating in the chest and head. And the good singers are in control so that when they sing the vibrato doesn’t take away from the performance or the pitch. Like Lilli Lehmann says, the breath should not be forced forward but flow outward in a constant state. In other terms, they’re pushing.
That is because Damrau has always been a light lyric who has pushed. Now the voice is in shreds and she hides behind lower lyric soprano repertoire hoping it won’t show how messed up her voice is. Netrebko has always been a lyric soprano and she just over sings and woods to fake a spinto repertoire.
@@orion8835 Imo Netrebko is also a light-lyric soprano. Also, Damrau doesn't very often sing heavier roles, but Netrebko does, unfortunately.
to me the bad ones all sound like they have to much air in the voice making it not as solid a sound. more like pop singers trying to sound operatic. whereas those that actually sound like opera singers paradoxically sound like they’re not trying to imitate anybody but JUST singing
Gencer is sublime both in expression and technique. Listen to her pianissimos more carefully.
An excellent side-by-side example of good and not-so-good (in most cases, bad) soprano singing. I would only take exception with including Sylvia Sass as a good example, considering that her voice crashed and burned very early in her career. And I think it's unfair to compare Obratzsova's Azucena with that of Marilyn Horne... Obratzsova was one of the great Verdi dramatic mezzos of the 20th century, while Marilyn Horne... was not. On the other hand, no one holds up Obratzsova as a great singer of Rossini.
La Netrebko, Damrau, Garanca...sono le tipiche voci odierne...la differenza vocale la si sente molto rispetto ai grandi cantanti del passato...
Callas had a gift for controlling her vibrato without drifting off the pitch.
She supported the sound! If it’s not supported, vibrato takes over and pitch is all over the place. Like Anastasios Vrenios would say “it’s frosting without the cake”:)
Some of these modern singers- if you didn’t have the orchestra, would you pick out the central note of their vibrato?
Eh, have to disagree here.
yeah not sure what they’re talking about. agree with steve.
Really ! She drifted off pitch almost every time she opened her mouth !
2:24 What the hell is that sound, police siren?
I respect all opinions, but saying that Christa Ludwig and Marilyn Horne are bad singers is a really very extravagant opinion.
Agreed. The only singers that really are...at the very least...not singing appropriate material for their instrument. Garanca sings Cenerentola divinely...but whoever said she should even ATTEMPT Eboli should be fired as a coach. And Netrebko's lack of much of anything except hutzpah and shouting has always made me angry at impresarios who just want pretty and passionate (even fake passionate will do, those who compare her to Callas, should be sent to Dante's lower bolgia's). But her constant and continuous lack of intonation (flat? sharp?--who cares?) after many years as a very famous and top-of-the-heap international star is simply INEXCUSABLE! I can give newbies to grand opera a break, because of jitters or stage fright or being in completely strange surroundings from the practice room, or the small recital with friends and family in attendance. But there is NO EXCUSE (I know, I already said it) for Netrebko's very bad intonation at her level today. Thanks for reading my rant. Crazy opera guy out.
It's almost not fair to compare Nilsson to anyone; she blows everyone away.
Lmao what do you mean? Her Lady Macbeth is shit. Weak low register, no trills, and she has no coloratura...
Not in beauty of tone. She had her best roles. In Wagner there were better ones.
@@RichardWagner-hi4zn Did the second punctuation mark end up in the wrong place there? :)
@@Bravilor Think again, Watson
@@RichardWagner-hi4zn "She had her best roles."? Well, I guess one can't argue that an opera singer have had their best roles. It is one of the sentences of all time.
Omg, if you say that modern opera singers are bad compared to the Old ones, your comment section shows that modern opera fans are hateful compared to the elite opera fans of the past. THANK YOU 🎻
Absolutely adore this video! Please make more!!!❤
Diana Damrau reminds me of Meryl Streep's performance as Florence Foster Jenkins. It's beyond comic. Thanks for including Callas here. It's nice to be reminded that she really did have good years; few though they were. Nilsson and Bumbry are just stunning! It is said that Nilsson could pin the audience to the backs of their seats. Thanks for a great post.
Damrau technique is Austrian it’s a very tight technique.
@@SingerGeneLeonard Damrau was great in her early years in coloratura roles but she has damaged her voice by singing roles too heavy for her ...
Die Damrau ist einfach lächerlich als Sängerin und noch lächerlicher als Schauspielerin, noch dazu hat sie keine Ahnung was LEGATO bedeutet.
Many are waking up to the truth about Damrau and Netrebko. Finally! Both had vocal problems early on that just got worse.
@@davidalbro2009 Thank God people are starting to see that!! From the start they were both extremely overrated! Another one that's becoming more and more popular for no good reason is Sandra Radvanovsky! I don't know how or why she's become such a big name!
my these singers of today do give opera a horrible name.
“I have encountered three miracles - Enrico Caruso, Tita Ruffo, and Rosa Ponselle...”
Tullio Serafin
A miracle is that you think you can encounter.
That comment was done before he meet Maria Callas. He was actually who gave Callas a chance to start and get famous.
@@lenapires7793 Exactly. How low to use that quote.
Damrau was good for a couple of years, then the over-singing and poor technique took over - jaw and tongue wobble, flapping vibrato, poor integration of registers - it all went wrong very quickly.
Wow-Damrau sounds like Florence Foster Jenkins! What is the sound of Verdi sung in Pig Latin.
@@ian1856 until the Met cancels her contract! Then she is Diana Doomedrau!
I swear she cared more about her touches to the piece than vocal emission
@@Mimi-ey5ej Do NOT talk about her like that! She has a wonderful voice and technique, great acting skills and is a very nice person! If you don't like her, that's ok, but insulting her and making fun of her online is insolence and pathetic! Just think about it and mind your own business!
I'm a full lyric soprano and I prefer to stick with the lyric roles (Madame Butterfly, Mimi, Lauretta, Pamina, Suzel etc), very less than few spinto roles (Manon Lescaut, Adriana Lecouver, Maddalena, Santuzza etc) and two Wagnerian roles (Elizabeth and Elsa).
I've heard many lyric sopranos singing Violetta but I prefer not to meddle around with her cause my voice isn't, what to say, flexible
Excellent video, both informative and highly amusing - I burst out laughing more than once! Bless them all - fortunately in this age of technology, one can be selective.
The sound got more and more THROATY from the 1990s to now.... The more the eastern Euroepans were employed. And Damrau just went wild..pitch all over the place
As a person who doesn't know much about music theory or opera, and who usually liked modern opera, I'm mesmerized by the difference. Had I heard any of the older records by itself, I might've been indifferent to them, but comparing them with modern performences side by side you clearly see how much better they sound? It's a matter of the sound quality and not of the voices, because our modern recording devices aren't really adapted to these older records, but how much clearer and less dramatic (and weird) they sound! Amazing...
I think nowadays there's too much vibratto up to the point that you can't hear the right note. And seems all singers sound the same.
Said it before, I'll say it again: Damrau's celebrity is a total mystery. A relentlessly-- aggressively--irritating voice. Massively overrated.
Completely agree. It seems these days that if you're even slightly pretty as a soprano all your flaws can be overlooked (Angel Blue, Nadine Sierra, Sonya Yoncheva). It's so sad to see the decline of what once was a towering, sublime genre.
Couldn't agree more. Oddly, I read a statement on some opera forum where someone described Damraus technique as flawless - this is when you ask yourself: 'What's wrong with me?"
Damrau cranks those notes out...whether they like it or not...
The way she creates the tone is compeltely wrong. Her voice sounds dry and constricted. Like she's trying to sing with a pair of socks in her throat, spoon of sand on her tongue and somebody strangling her with a rope. Yet so many people believe she's the best Queen of the Night ever.
@@maryvallettakeith6146 She was really great in the beginning of her career and it looked like she was going to be the real thing: a lyric coloratura with an unusually pleasing timbre. Unfortunately, her voice declined very quickly.
Ludwig has sung during fifty years; Sass has totally destroyed her voice in ten years...
7:26 - 7:31 cannot hold my laughter 🤭🤣
So let's try to sing like Anna!
You don't realize how singing opera hard is...
I've always thought her voice sounds so weird.
@@wiktoriaboron I know but this doesn't mean running away to the easier way of singing .
@@wiktoriaboron You do realize that singing Macbeth without a good technique will harm your voice right ? The way Anna sung that part is harmful. Try taking a look at other soprano such as Shirley Verrett and Saiao Hernandez singing that part and you will know what I mean. (Oh, by the way, by taking a look I mean look at the videos )
To dfgh 234 - First of all you’re incorrect, secondly you’re mean-spirited. Such mockery says more about you than Anna.
Since I’ve been reading opera comments there seem to be more and more uneducated elitism, self-appointed critics.
You’re free to your opinion, thus free to display your ignorance. Still such vile condemnation reveals your bitter world-view and petty insecurities.
The beauty of opera are the many interpretations. Each of the opera stars that reach this level have something to offer. Much opinion is subjective.
They do not deserve mockery and ridicule.
People forget that Verdi is rooted in the Belcanto. A Beautiful megaton is the baseline. Not overflowing and thrust. Blooming into a big sound is what Verdi intended. Always BEAUTY! Otherwise Verdi dies on the vine.
Thanks for your video. I agree with most of your judgments, disagree with a few. I don’t think that good/bad is the best way of describing what you are trying to get at though. Some of the ‘bad’ examples you note are so much ‘bad’ as they are just example of singers singing at the limits of what they ought to singing (or singing past them). For example, I don’t think that you can really ever call Christa Ludwig bad. Certainly, she sang things that were out of her fach (and that accounts for why she spreads a bit and omits some consonants in the Macbeth excerpts here), but that’s different from ‘singing poorly,’ if you get what I mean. In her case, the fact that she could get through demanding dramatic soprano roles that were sometimes by her own admission too high for her (e.g., Fidelio, Dyer’s wife) as well as she did without destroying her voice is a testament to her technique and vocal intelligence. (Also note that she learned Lady Macbeth under the guidance of Zinka Milanov.)
It’s interesting however that Gencer is on your good list. I often find her exciting, and she sounds good here as Gilda. But she pushed a whole lot during her career when singing dramatic music (she’s firmly on the lyric side), and her voice was often disjointed and not homogeneous in colour.
The good bad division is really supposed to apply not to the person, but to the specific example of their singing. That said, I really don't find Ludwig an example of good singing generally - that doesn't mean though she is as bad overall as someone like Netrebko. Certainly, there are some recordings of her that sound good, but I find most of her singing exemplifies … just screaming. It is far from a beautiful tone… so people on youtube, i don't know, seem to like her because she is loud and actually projects her voice, and that is a virtue compared to modern singers. But it isn't a beautiful sound that she is making, so that is indicative of poor technique. Compared to the many great mezzos who also have a beautiful tone, there is clearly something wrong with what Ludwig is doing.
The plain fact is, if you are spreading your mouth and screaming, you are singing poorly.
And there is really no reason why she should be so screamy on the Lady Macbeth aria - it is fine for a mezzo's range, so singing out of her fach isn't really a good excuse (lots of mezzo's have sung Norma transposed only slightly down! or think about Eboli in don Carlo, that is just as "high" of a part as lady Macbeth).
To be honest, I think similarly of Callas (sorry!). I think there are great recordings of her, especially early ones, and I used her in the video as a good example, but there are also a lot of "screamy" recordings.
As for Gencer, that is interesting. I think the opposite, she is a heavier voice who kind restricts too much on certain parts. For example, I think her una macchia is better than her tacea la notte, she is more open on the heavier pieces. But again, she is another example of someone I don't think is a perfect singer, but there are some really fantastic recordings of her. Lots of examples like that.
@@francisca1378 I can’t agree with you about Ludwig, but that’s ok! I don’t think one can say her technique was poor; a different aesthetic, maybe. She did sometimes push (she writes in her book that Milanov told her to stop pushing when they met for some coaching sessions). I’d recommend her in lieder generally, as well as Mozart, Wagner, and Strauss. Her Ortrud, Venus, Brangaene, Waltraute, Fricka, and Kundry are divine. Verdi in generally wasn’t a good fit for her; Amneris, Azucena, and Eboli were too heavy for her, which she freely admits. Lady Macbeth is surely on the high side for a mezzo! The tessitura is higher than Eboli to my knowledge. I know Verrett and Bumbry sing Macbeth well (especially Verrett), but they were more falcons.
As for Callas (who I will openly admit is my preference), her voice simply got knocked out of alignment. Probably a combination of weight loss that was too rapid, wild repertory choices, and pushing as time went along and as her vocal placement became less consistent and more nasal. No such problems early on! I think she found it harder and harder to cover in the upper passaggio as time went on, which accounts for some of the shrillness particularly around F#/G/Ab/A. My sense is that she was obviously an extremely talented singer, but one whose technique was more intuitive than the product of knowledge. Once her body changed, she couldn’t adjust her technique accordingly.
I think Gencer is really really good in Trovatore actually. The 1957 RAI recording, that is. Her Lady Macbeth is on the light side for my tastes, but she performed that with Taddei around 1960, which was still early. As the 1960s progressed, she sang heavier and heavier stuff (Aida, Norma, Roberto Devereux, even Gioconda), but it was all so pushed, and the vocal colour was rather inconsistent. I don’t think she would have constricted nearly as much had she been born to sing those roles. (But of course, then she would pull of a beautiful pianissimo out of nowhere.) Interestingly, in interviews she did say that the ‘lyric Gencer’ was better than the ‘dramatic Gencer’, so I guess it was a choice she made. Not unlike Scotto. In terms of vocal weight, I’d put Gencer somewhere close to Zeani, although I do think that Zeani was better overall.
@@ER1CwC yea, I just… never like Ludwig, but different tastes, I guess! She is on one of the Don Giovanni recordings I have… and I just can't stand her on it, so harsh! But she is far from a really, really bad singer like modern opera singers! And I do like her in some Strauss and Wagner (random…) Milanov sounds like she was right! And that aria only hits a b flat (I think in the intro it passes to a quick C), but it doesn't hold the B flat, I think it is an A flat that is held, so that shouldn't be a problem for a mezzo. The general place where the aria stays for the main part is fairly low. Meanwhile Eboli holds a B natural and two B flats. But anyway, if Ludwig couldn't do it without making is sound beautiful she should have just skipped it (like Obratzsova was smart never to try it, even though she had a fairly solid B)
I also agree with what Milanov says about Callas. And I have a similar take on it as you do, that she had a great voice that just got messed up by a number of different factors, which is a real shame. And I agree she definitely had a more "intuitive" knowledge - that is a good way to understand it. It is like she just knew how to make a really beautiful sound, but then couldn't adapt to changes in her body/repertoire. The weight loss I'm sure was a huge change… Weight loss issue aside, I always think she should have stayed in slightly lighter repertoire, so some Verdi parts (but not dramatic parts like Elisabetta or Lady Macbeth… or Puccini roles like Turandot), combined with parts that show off her gorgeous high notes and coloratura like Anna Bolena, Lucia, Norma, etc. That would have been more suited to her voice and would have probably kept her in better shape.
Zeani is definitely more consistent, and I can see why you would compare the two. I do love Leyla Gencer though because she gives so much to the performance, but she is definitely not my idea of a perfect singer - and I like her a lot better than Scotto. Scotto is really a lyric who should stay away from dramatic roles, but I think Gencer did a fine job with a lot of them, even though maybe not absolutely perfect. I have a bootleg recording of her in Don Carlo (with Ghiaurov) and it is just so exciting! One of my favourites! It is interesting that you think her Lady is light. I always find her richer than other singers (like Callas, or even Souliotis whom I also really like in the part), but definitely not as rich as a mezzo singing the part. I never am really happy with a Lady Macbeth, the singer always seems either too light in the part or too screamy. I think I listen to Souliotis most often as my go-to, but it is still not my "ideal." I do really like Verrett's Lady Macbeth, too, and Bumbry's is definitely okay.
@@francisca1378 Listen to Ludwig in Tannhauser; see what you think. As I said, Eboli wasn’t a great role for her. She actually had a vocal crisis with it singing it with Karajan and quickly dropped it. Elvira is a soprano role (although the mezzos transpose the Mi tradi); it’s a matter of where the tessitura lies. I like her in it though, so maybe it’s just a taste thing! By Mozart, I meant Dorabella and Cherubino.
I think one of the issues with Callas in terms of rep was twofold. First, her voice was unconventional, so she had to sing roles that were too heavy (e.g., Turandot, perhaps Gioconda), and that didn’t play to her strengths (e.g., verismo, a lot of Puccini actually). Although it is important to note that her voice was much heavier at the beginning; as time went on, it lightened and shrank, but she sang increasingly heavily. Second, much of her bread-and-butter repertory, which I would say was dramatic Rossini/Donizetti/Bellini and early-middle Verdi (including Lady Macbeth - have you heard her live recording? I’d argue that she was a perfect fit...), was not in the standard repertory. So she had to sing other things that she wouldn’t have otherwise sung or that she didn’t like anyways (Puccini). I think had she had the chance, she would’ve focused on bel canto, early-mid Verdi, and actually late classical-early romantic music like Cherubini, Spontini, and Gluck. But she had to fight just to get things like Anna Bolena and Pirata performed, let alone performed regularly. Certainly, she would have traded recordings of Bolena and Pirata for all of those Puccini records which she never even considered to sing onstage. I can’t imagine that she wouldn’t have preferred to explore those Donizetti queens and serious parts like Lucrezia Borgia over singing stuff like Chenier and Fedora.
I prefer Scotto to Gencer generally. Scotto was better musically and had a more consistent lower and middle register, although yes the upper register could be strident. I think BOTH were lyric singers who pushed to sing dramatic roles! I think the pressures manifested themselves differently due to the different qualities of their voice. Scotto’s voice always had edge to it, which explains why the voice became increasingly strident. Gencer’s didn’t have that edge, but when pushed it too lost quality and became equally (I’m thinking of her in Aida and Norma) - it’s just not as noticeable because it doesn’t have that edge. It’s similar to how Caballe’s voice too often lost quality and was squally when pushed, but was never ‘strident’ because it was a softer-grained voice. Do you follow? Both were exciting singers and excellent in the proper repertory. (I’d vouch for Scotto’s Adina, Sonnambula, Lucia, Gilda, and Traviata any day.)
For Macbeth, I’d go with Callas (again, check out the live recording from 1952), Verrett, and Rysanek. Gwyneth Jones was excellent too in it, although she might not be to your tastes. Suliotis was a bit hit or miss. I love Nilsson, but her voice was not the most flexible, and Lady Macbeth has substantial coloratura passages.
@@ER1CwC I'm not the biggest Wagner fan, so I'll have to check her out in Wagner and maybe she does better there.
I agree with your assessment of Callas, except I really don't like her Lady Macbeth… I don't know, it sounds too light/youthful of a voice. It sounds like a little girl singing the part! But I agree generally, she kind of just sang the wrong roles early on and it messed up her voice - that is basically what Milanov said about her.
I really, really don't like Scotto, because she sings in the mask. I actually made a video about her poor technique! Gencer, with all her flaws, and the issue of what voice type she is aside, generally sings with good technique - but Scotto is just really bad technique. I agree though about Caballe, another voice I think sang too many dramatic roles. I also am not crazy about Nilsson's Lady Macbeth, but I still do enjoy listening to it! Can't really ever complain about Nilsson!
Christa Ludwig should have never sing Lady Macbeth.
Neither Anna Netrebko
I am not that well versed in opera, and I am not quite sure what is meant by head voice or chest voice, but what people react to a type of scream in the voices marked red? The voices marked green carry the notes more flowing and sturdy to me.
What's striking for me here is that the "bad examples" all lack a certain dramatic expressiveness and immediacy. The "bad" examples all can make impressive sounds here and there, but their voices sound too artificially manufactured for there to be any direct connection with the text they're singing. The vowels are all not adequately differentiated, and there is no dramatic immediacy. Everything just sounds like a vocalise. It's the difference between a kind of singing that is dramatically responsive because it's not that far removed from natural declamatory speech, and a kind of singing that is just too manufactured and artificially produced to have any real dramatic charge.
it is very clear that the era of good opera is very close to an end if it hasn't ended yet. today there are very few singers who use the right technique. this may be the main reason why people stopped listening to opera as they did very long ago.
They stopped?
@@username45739 most of them yes
Then who are all the people in the audiences? Still hard to get tickets sometimes. I love going to the opera, and I enjoy listening to all our wonderful, modern singers.
@@Feisenbach it's obvious that any hip hop singer unfortunately has many more listeners than opera singers do. Opera is dead in the water. According to billboard/Nielsen, classical music had an overall 1% share of the market in 2019, or 12th out of 12 genres. This is the least popular music genre well behind the top four genres: R&B/hip-hop, rock & roll, pop, country, and even behind children’s music. And opera is just a tiny niche within classical music.
@@nelsonferreirauk Opera will never be able to compete with pop music when it comes to the number of listeners. But that's a totally different discussion. That has nothing to do with modern singing technique.