I’d do a bootcamp today after about 1.5 years of self taught through hands on experience. I feel if I would’ve done it out the gate, then I wouldn’t get the full value and would have been overwhelmed.
I got accepted into a bootcamp cohort where the government sponsored us and paid the tuition fee. But one week before the bootcamp started I got offered a contract job position to work in a tech company but not as a full stack dev or software engineer but as a data assistant. I was trying to transition from a career as an architect to a software engineer. I decided to take the job since I figured work experience and getting paid was way more valuable. It’s not a software engineering position but I’m hoping that this would be a good stepping stone for me. Recently, I’ve been quite skeptical about bootcamp because I see lots of videos of people saying they’re dead. Nice to see a video saying they’re not dead haha
I'd really like a trade school, 2-year equivalent program for development. I was close to a beginner when I went to a bootcamp, and there was no real differentiation in the course for student ability. I got familiar with concepts, but I certainly didn't learn them well. It was a bittersweet experience, sweet in hindsight because I managed to get work. Some concepts just require more time & practice. 3 months is so little time, and if the material isn't taught well, so much of that time gets wasted.
Yeah, I think a lot of people have this perception that all coding bootcamps are only 3 months long. That's just not true, and I agree - 3 months is a REALLY compressed timeline. Even with a program like that though, much of that time isn't wasted. The information isn't lost right away, but it certainly is if you don't reinforce it. I've been saying this for a while - 2-year trade-school like software engineering programs are an ideal future. A 2 year coding bootcamp (or whatever label) that evolves quickly would serve people better than traditional education. Change in curriculums in traditional education just takes too long. I think we need more government support for alternative education to make this flourish (through low interest federal student loans). I'd love to see it happen though.
Yeah I've said the same here before too. Unfortunately it boils down to it being an employers market (generally, not just tech) and massive greed in the corporate world. They put the onus on you in terms of time and money.. they expect you to get good, rather than investing in you to get good on the hope that you will. Two years would be the sweet spot, and it needs teachers who are active in the industry and not just academics who go stale skillwise themselves.
Oh, but Don. The problem is that so many employers won't even look at your application without a CS or related bachelor's degree. You'll be filtered out before they even lay eyes on your resume/projects. And even if you did manage to get the job today, how secure will you be relative to your CS-degreed peers? Will you survive the next few rounds of layoffs over them? And if not, how hard will it be for you to land your next job without that much experience? As companies continue to complain about having too many applications to sift through, the credentialism will only get worse. I wish this weren't true. It would save a lot of people thousands and thousands of dollars and years of time spent on subject matter that is only tangentially related to day-to-day software engineering. But here we are.
"The problem is that so many employers won't even look at your application without a CS or related bachelor's degree. You'll be filtered out before they even lay eyes on your resume/projects." And this is the advice that continues to get spread among others who don't know any better. You will find a home on r/codingbootcamp with tons of people who agree with you. By all means, believe what you'd like to as other self-taught devs/coding bootcamps grads continue to figure out what makes them stand out, break into the industry, and remain successful. My advice is for people who choose to go past this surface-level perspective and figure out the nuance of what makes certain people stand out, and others not so much.
Its all that and way worse outside US for example. At this point you need a CS degree, senior level skills and projects to "stand out" enough for one of those 2 junior positions for which thousands fight for.
@cjsport1254 CS grads are struggling right now. My point was that if CS grads are struggling, then non-CS grads have it even worse. Yes, to have the best possible chance at a job, you'll need a CS degree AND previous experience (or demonstrably high quality projects at the least). The CS degree is only the base. But you won't have much of a chance without it. It's come to the point where an aspiring junior has to be clearly exceptional to even stand a chance without inside connections.
A lot of these bootcamp companies offer job placement(even within a certain time frame) or money back guarantee. Why offer a guarantee if they dont have insight over other companies..?? Work with certain companies to get new students a real world opportunity...
I moved from construction industry into a full stack developer role. Mixture of self taught and bootcamp. Also worked for free in evenings to get experience whilst still working construction in the day. I agree the ones that have done the best from our bootcamp 3 years later were the ones that spent more time on their self study rather than just relying on the bootcamp materials. I think it comes down to grit and resilience if you put in the effort you can do it.
I just graduated from Springboard's software engineering bootcamp a couple of weeks ago, and you have no idea how much I needed to hear this right now. THANK YOU SIR!
I was selt learning for 12 months b4 i decided i really wanted to get into data science (engineer) in those 12 months i learned python and sql so moving into data was smooth, only 3 months ago i started a data science degree here in the uk, so i can put that on my resume and have practical skills even b4 i graduate. 😅
It's a shame what that subreddit has turned into. There's no nuance in advice given there anymore. It's always just "coding bootcamps bad". Glad I could help give a different perspective.
Even when they're not fraudulent (like Lambda School), in the USA bootcamps are still a ripoff compared to community colleges and state universities, both of which offer flexible options for upskilling. Heck, for bootcamp money you could get an actual degree from an actual university, as state universities are bound to have steep discounts for residents of the state they're in.
I went from construction worker to software engineer in 2021 after bootcamp, i would say its a bit tougher right now with the state of the market though
I'm on the self taught path. Focusing on building a portfolio. Can't afford some expensive camp and don't care.😂 I can read. I have a text editor and I know to use a compiler. I don't even use ides unless I absolutely have to. Tutorial hell was real at first. Got out of it. If I'm watching a tutorial video I'm typing the code in along with the guy or gal in the video.
I wouldn't consider it a "coding bootcamp". It's a pretty weak program overall - especially the backend lessons. Very surface level. The skill level and projects of most people that go through it just don't cut it in today's market. I think it can be a great start to your coding journey though, like freecodecamp or odin project. Just prepare to supplement heavily afterwards.
@@DonTheDeveloper thank you for the response! The self-taught path is an uphill struggle, but I'm working on Python right now and excited to add to my skills, especially when I get a grasp on building my own projects. Great channel, I'll be watching closely!
Hey Don! I really enjoy your videos and have watched I think most of them. B/c of your channel I discovered scrimba and pretty much followed through most of your advices: 1)research 2)self study a few months (3 in my case) 3)6 month full stack bootcamp 4)continued studying Found out precisely like you said: Definitely it helped a lot with my difficulties and insecurities and it helped me to be better on how to learn and how to figure stuff out on my own, but still b/c of how the market was I was still kind of far away from a junior role. I just wanted your opinion on this, and see what you think about it. I ended up landing a Software QA job thankfully but still my true interest and passion lies in a dev job. I believe having that professional experience is going to be a huge plus even though my time to learn specific skills required for a dev job and working on projects is going to be limited. I have been advised in taking this route and slowly but surely transition into a dev role by other people but I don’t think I’ve heard your thoughts on it. Hope you have time to read this and once again, really enjoy your honest opinions!
Hey, I'm glad my content has been helpful for you and congrats on the new position! That sounds like a great question for one of our Q&A's. I'm happy to dive into it then. I actually host a Q&A every Friday at 5:30pm CT. Feel free to stop on by sometime.
Thanks, I needed this. I was considering going for a CS degree because of reddit, but I think I'll stick with the self-taught/bootcamp route. I also joined a few local coding meetup groups like a previous video of yours suggested.
It's all about doing as much research as you reasonably can and understanding the pros and cons of each path. They all continue to land people jobs. You just have to do your best to figure out what works best for you. There's nothing stopping you from pivoting either. The self-taught path really is great for helping you get a little more insight into what it's like to become a developer.
The problem is AI. Companies replace juniors with AI. When you have a tool that can write code as well as a junior and for free, your work as a junior is no more valuable.
what do you think is more important after the bootcamp? DS&A or project building? Cause I feel you might know the stuff but if you don't do the DS&A question interview is over
Opinions on a 2 year program with a coop included. In canada diploma programs are kind of like trade school with a work program included. Do you think it could be a viable option
people who go to coding bootcamps and only have been learning for a month or two are fools. imo 6 months minimum before going. i got rejected from the only one i applied to and spent two years self teaching before i got a job, if that sounds too long to anyone wanting to break into tech - they should not do this. being in the development field requires constant learning, if two years of learning before getting a professional job sounds too long, youve already lost.
I’d do a bootcamp today after about 1.5 years of self taught through hands on experience. I feel if I would’ve done it out the gate, then I wouldn’t get the full value and would have been overwhelmed.
"I feel if I would’ve done it out the gate, then I wouldn’t get the full value"
100% this. You summed it up nicely.
Agreed but taking it after self learning would fill wholes, don't you think?
This
I got accepted into a bootcamp cohort where the government sponsored us and paid the tuition fee. But one week before the bootcamp started I got offered a contract job position to work in a tech company but not as a full stack dev or software engineer but as a data assistant. I was trying to transition from a career as an architect to a software engineer. I decided to take the job since I figured work experience and getting paid was way more valuable. It’s not a software engineering position but I’m hoping that this would be a good stepping stone for me. Recently, I’ve been quite skeptical about bootcamp because I see lots of videos of people saying they’re dead. Nice to see a video saying they’re not dead haha
military paid for it? sorry, when i hear government i think military (because im airforce as well lol)
I'd really like a trade school, 2-year equivalent program for development. I was close to a beginner when I went to a bootcamp, and there was no real differentiation in the course for student ability. I got familiar with concepts, but I certainly didn't learn them well. It was a bittersweet experience, sweet in hindsight because I managed to get work.
Some concepts just require more time & practice. 3 months is so little time, and if the material isn't taught well, so much of that time gets wasted.
Yeah, I think a lot of people have this perception that all coding bootcamps are only 3 months long. That's just not true, and I agree - 3 months is a REALLY compressed timeline. Even with a program like that though, much of that time isn't wasted. The information isn't lost right away, but it certainly is if you don't reinforce it.
I've been saying this for a while - 2-year trade-school like software engineering programs are an ideal future. A 2 year coding bootcamp (or whatever label) that evolves quickly would serve people better than traditional education. Change in curriculums in traditional education just takes too long. I think we need more government support for alternative education to make this flourish (through low interest federal student loans). I'd love to see it happen though.
Yeah I've said the same here before too. Unfortunately it boils down to it being an employers market (generally, not just tech) and massive greed in the corporate world. They put the onus on you in terms of time and money.. they expect you to get good, rather than investing in you to get good on the hope that you will.
Two years would be the sweet spot, and it needs teachers who are active in the industry and not just academics who go stale skillwise themselves.
Oh, but Don.
The problem is that so many employers won't even look at your application without a CS or related bachelor's degree. You'll be filtered out before they even lay eyes on your resume/projects.
And even if you did manage to get the job today, how secure will you be relative to your CS-degreed peers? Will you survive the next few rounds of layoffs over them? And if not, how hard will it be for you to land your next job without that much experience?
As companies continue to complain about having too many applications to sift through, the credentialism will only get worse.
I wish this weren't true. It would save a lot of people thousands and thousands of dollars and years of time spent on subject matter that is only tangentially related to day-to-day software engineering. But here we are.
"The problem is that so many employers won't even look at your application without a CS or related bachelor's degree. You'll be filtered out before they even lay eyes on your resume/projects."
And this is the advice that continues to get spread among others who don't know any better. You will find a home on r/codingbootcamp with tons of people who agree with you.
By all means, believe what you'd like to as other self-taught devs/coding bootcamps grads continue to figure out what makes them stand out, break into the industry, and remain successful. My advice is for people who choose to go past this surface-level perspective and figure out the nuance of what makes certain people stand out, and others not so much.
Its all that and way worse outside US for example. At this point you need a CS degree, senior level skills and projects to "stand out" enough for one of those 2 junior positions for which thousands fight for.
@cjsport1254 CS grads are struggling right now. My point was that if CS grads are struggling, then non-CS grads have it even worse.
Yes, to have the best possible chance at a job, you'll need a CS degree AND previous experience (or demonstrably high quality projects at the least). The CS degree is only the base. But you won't have much of a chance without it.
It's come to the point where an aspiring junior has to be clearly exceptional to even stand a chance without inside connections.
A lot of these bootcamp companies offer job placement(even within a certain time frame) or money back guarantee. Why offer a guarantee if they dont have insight over other companies..?? Work with certain companies to get new students a real world opportunity...
I moved from construction industry into a full stack developer role.
Mixture of self taught and bootcamp. Also worked for free in evenings to get experience whilst still working construction in the day.
I agree the ones that have done the best from our bootcamp 3 years later were the ones that spent more time on their self study rather than just relying on the bootcamp materials.
I think it comes down to grit and resilience if you put in the effort you can do it.
@@JIPP71984 doing some free work is underrated. If the skillset is there? Great addition to the portfolio.
I just graduated from Springboard's software engineering bootcamp a couple of weeks ago, and you have no idea how much I needed to hear this right now. THANK YOU SIR!
@@jwillisofficial Good timing. Push forward and keep that momentum up! Everything else is just noise.
I’m in spring board right now. Stuck on the Julia’s Caesar secret party assignment
Have you landed a job yet?
Glad to hear this after being in the self taught path for 1.5 year. I have finally registered with Fulstack academy July 15 cohort.
Sounds like you're committed. Make the most of it! The 1.5 years of the self-taught path will certainly help you do that.
I was selt learning for 12 months b4 i decided i really wanted to get into data science (engineer) in those 12 months i learned python and sql so moving into data was smooth, only 3 months ago i started a data science degree here in the uk, so i can put that on my resume and have practical skills even b4 i graduate. 😅
After months hanging around r/CodingBootcamp, I needed to hear this. Subbed.
It's a shame what that subreddit has turned into. There's no nuance in advice given there anymore. It's always just "coding bootcamps bad". Glad I could help give a different perspective.
Even when they're not fraudulent (like Lambda School), in the USA bootcamps are still a ripoff compared to community colleges and state universities, both of which offer flexible options for upskilling. Heck, for bootcamp money you could get an actual degree from an actual university, as state universities are bound to have steep discounts for residents of the state they're in.
"bootcamps are still a ripoff"
Now there's the blank prescription advice I've come to love from r/codingbootcamp types. Welcome in!
I appreciate your candidness. Respect brother.
Always.
Hi thanks for the video. Can you create a video talking about what skills and projects do companies look for?
I went from construction worker to software engineer in 2021 after bootcamp, i would say its a bit tougher right now with the state of the market though
I'm on the self taught path. Focusing on building a portfolio. Can't afford some expensive camp and don't care.😂 I can read. I have a text editor and I know to use a compiler. I don't even use ides unless I absolutely have to.
Tutorial hell was real at first. Got out of it. If I'm watching a tutorial video I'm typing the code in along with the guy or gal in the video.
How do you feel about 100devs as a viable coding bootcamp? After i finish freecodecamps courses that was the course i was planning to progress to.
I wouldn't consider it a "coding bootcamp". It's a pretty weak program overall - especially the backend lessons. Very surface level. The skill level and projects of most people that go through it just don't cut it in today's market.
I think it can be a great start to your coding journey though, like freecodecamp or odin project. Just prepare to supplement heavily afterwards.
@@DonTheDeveloper thank you for the response! The self-taught path is an uphill struggle, but I'm working on Python right now and excited to add to my skills, especially when I get a grasp on building my own projects. Great channel, I'll be watching closely!
@@atx420yay Happy to help! I always love to hear self-taught developers get excited about things and continue pushing forward. Keep that fire burning.
I didn’t finish it but I did get fat along, and personally it just wasn’t for me, but there is a lot of community involved which I like
Hey Don!
I really enjoy your videos and have watched I think most of them. B/c of your channel I discovered scrimba and pretty much followed through most of your advices:
1)research
2)self study a few months (3 in my case)
3)6 month full stack bootcamp
4)continued studying
Found out precisely like you said:
Definitely it helped a lot with my difficulties and insecurities and it helped me to be better on how to learn and how to figure stuff out on my own, but still b/c of how the market was I was still kind of far away from a junior role.
I just wanted your opinion on this, and see what you think about it. I ended up landing a Software QA job thankfully but still my true interest and passion lies in a dev job. I believe having that professional experience is going to be a huge plus even though my time to learn specific skills required for a dev job and working on projects is going to be limited.
I have been advised in taking this route and slowly but surely transition into a dev role by other people but I don’t think I’ve heard your thoughts on it.
Hope you have time to read this and once again, really enjoy your honest opinions!
Hey, I'm glad my content has been helpful for you and congrats on the new position! That sounds like a great question for one of our Q&A's. I'm happy to dive into it then. I actually host a Q&A every Friday at 5:30pm CT. Feel free to stop on by sometime.
Perfect I’ll try to stay tuned for it and listen to your thoughts on the topic.
@@enzoaltamirano21 Just to clarify, make sure you ask the question during it. It's a Q&A where I answer questions when they're asked in the live chat.
Thanks, I needed this. I was considering going for a CS degree because of reddit, but I think I'll stick with the self-taught/bootcamp route. I also joined a few local coding meetup groups like a previous video of yours suggested.
It's all about doing as much research as you reasonably can and understanding the pros and cons of each path. They all continue to land people jobs. You just have to do your best to figure out what works best for you. There's nothing stopping you from pivoting either. The self-taught path really is great for helping you get a little more insight into what it's like to become a developer.
The problem is AI. Companies replace juniors with AI. When you have a tool that can write code as well as a junior and for free, your work as a junior is no more valuable.
Thumbnail is just good life advice, tbh
hahaha I watched A TON of your bootcamp reviews to see which one to go and I wonder which ones you would consider the best ones...
what do you think is more important after the bootcamp? DS&A or project building? Cause I feel you might know the stuff but if you don't do the DS&A question interview is over
I'd only do a coding bootcamp if my employer paid for it.
Your employer can use AI with the same result and for free... Entry level as we know it is extinct.
Is Html for Dummies worth it?
They are great reference books.
Opinions on a 2 year program with a coop included. In canada diploma programs are kind of like trade school with a work program included. Do you think it could be a viable option
Yup, definitely. I actually went into a little more detail on that in another comment here.
I don't know if you've heard, but Rithm School is shutting down.
I did. That's really unfortunate. I loved the integrity and passion of the staff at Rithm School.
The problem with the bootcamps is that it's just students teaching students. They usually hire recent grads to teach what they barely grasp
The problem is in 6 months you barely scratch the surface. It was ok for juniors but these days AI can replace juniors.
people who go to coding bootcamps and only have been learning for a month or two are fools. imo 6 months minimum before going. i got rejected from the only one i applied to and spent two years self teaching before i got a job, if that sounds too long to anyone wanting to break into tech - they should not do this. being in the development field requires constant learning, if two years of learning before getting a professional job sounds too long, youve already lost.
F you Don, I got this
Not be a dick, misleading advertising. Not marketing. Marketing cannot be misleading.
@@WilliamRaezer what’s the difference?