Charismatics and Evangelicals Part 1 - Charismatics Characterised
Вставка
- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- ©️David Pawson Teaching Trust 2019
Part one of a six part series on Charismatics and Evangelicals. This video examines Charismatic belief and practice
"Charismatics and Evangelicals" the Series:
For the last quarter of a century, Charismatics and Evangelicals have been moving closer together. The time is ripe, maintains David Pawson, for the two fastest growing streams in Christendom to be fully integrated.
With personal experience of both, and a passionate desire to see them united, David Pawson has made a searching study of their remaining differences which he believes can be resolved without compromise. After defining and clarifying their positions, he addresses such critical points of divergence as theology and experience, prophecy and scripture, initiation, tongues, ministry and holiness. The challenge for both, he maintains, is to reconsider their traditional understanding in the light of all the biblical data. .
Free resources and a library of Davids teachings are available from www.davidpawson.org
Amazing bible teacher! Looking forward to thanking him in heaven! So blessed by every single video I’ve listened to. Excellent!
Amen
First time I ever actually listened to this brother. Wonderful, agree 100% with everything he said here, only wish I had listened to him before now. Thank you Lord, for leading me to listen to him.
What matters is the many times Mr. Pawson tells us in all of his videos is that we should take this information and draw our own conclusions and never forces his will upon us. I thank God that I came across his teachings because it takes a man like this to get me to do the research.
P
Up
Mr Pawson "never forces his will upon us". WoW isn't that nice of him.
A time is coming and is now here where followers of God will worship in Spirit and in Truth.
Amen
I’ve only just discovered your channel. Well done. When we think about the outpouring of the Spirit in the past 100 years, it does fulfill the prophecy about the Spirit being poured out in the last days. We haven’t reached the climax, but it exciting to see how God has equipped His Church with the Holy Spirit, both in the lives of individuals and globally.
Interesting: I consider myself a Charismatic and an Evangelical. Both Word & Spirit are needed, just as we need both air to breathe and food to grow. It's possible they are both right in what they assert, and wrong in what they deny.
Amen❤❤❤
I believe the word you are looking for then is pentecostal then. Because that is what it originally was. Charismats are not pentecostals. They are their own denomination. We do not associate ourselves with them.
If you are an evangelical Christian that believes that God baptizes with the Holy Spirit today with signs of Toungues and gifts of the Spirit, then you are a pentecostal.
Thanks Steve that goes without saying
Hi, at 17:50 mins.
At the age of 12, did Jesus not use the word of knowledge at the synagogue?
Also, the Spirit descending on Jesus, it was not public, right? (At least Bible is silent on this, I guess)
Only close circles probably was aware. What you suggest?
Could you please provide scriptural backup
Four squares - Jesus is saviour,sanctifier , healer and the coming King were propounded by Dr.A.B. Simpson , founder of Alliance church.
That is a major problem with the Church, no Church history. I think Christians would appreciate our (religion) much more if they were given a Bible study on the History of Christianity. I know it did me a world of good, it also explains many things about doctrine.
Hi just for info David gave a series of audio talks on Church history which you can find on his website davidpawsonmi.org. There is also his book “where has the body been for the last 2000 years “
I wish he would give more actual Scripture references for the things that he says. I think that would enable him to teach the Bible with more authority. MikeinMinnesota
Hi Mike you rase a very interesting point
- I also was frustrated at the lack of Bible references and wished he had made it easier for me. What I can say is this was conscious decision of Davids not to d so. I challenged him on many occasions but understand why he chose not to do so
May I make the following two observations:-
theteachesthebiblediscredit
worked with David as a volunteer for more than 10 years before he went to be with the Lord last year. I challenged him on many occasions and he always backed up every comment with Bible references but that took time and many hours of detailed discussions. often burning the midnight oil
2. The second position David takes is you can mis quote the Bible by taking verses out of context and he was cautious of not doing that
As just one example - ''Behold I stand at the door and knock'', is a very used by many Evangelists - but it is not a verse for unbelievers but a warning to a Church of believers who Jesus was ''about to spit out of his mouth'' for being neither hot nor cold .
''A Text out of context is a pretext ''understand
BiblethewrittenchallengedBiblicalthespecificfor you
You misunderstand. I am not attacking DP or his teachings. While he may have been kind enough to give references to you, David has made statements in his videos that simply don’t bear up under close scriptural study. I’m thinking of where he says other than tongues, praise and prophecy are initial evidences of Baptism in the Holy Spirit. I can’t find those. Perhaps you can point them out to me. It happens that I too question tongues as the first evidence or even the only. I just can’t find scriptural references to use yet. I guess that in matters of faith and practice I’m in the camp of “If it can’t be found in the Bible, it ain’t so 😄.” I eagerly await scriptural defenses of my position on evidence. Thank you for your kind response. Is there more you might add? MikeinMinnesota
@@MichaelSmith-yy8fw very true. His is Christology is bit skewed as well...
@@supersmart671 how is it skewed. Skewed because he doesn't speak fantasy created by man but the truth
Great teacher no doubt and very clear. So clear that I have to point a few things out and disagree with a few things. I hope this is taken as iron sharpens iron and me being over critical.
First item is that Peter in Acts 2 only said the Holy Spirit was promised, which was made evident by the people practicing the gift but didn't promise the gifts of the spirit. Jesus made the promise of the Spirit before his ascension.
Second item is that while Pastor Pawson says that getting the gifts was normal, that's from the perspective of it being normative in that time because everyone got it. But when you're living at that time, that's far from normal because it's totally new and the apostles were just figuring it out as it happened. The pentacost came on them first and then they can finally accept gentiles (including the sumaritans) as part of the faith because God had to correct their Jewish exlusivism. The visibile signs of the flaming tongue above their heads and the breaking out of tongues and prophecy was proof to the apostles of God's desire to include everyone, not just the jews.
27:15 Acts 19, they were John's disciples they...if you read carefully. The Apostle is explaining about Jesus.
Very interesting. I would suggest that a third center could be "sacramental," emphasized by Catholics and Orthodox.
Sacramental is not biblical
It is true that the word "sacrament" is not found in scripture. However, Psalm 18:2 (19:1) and Romans 1:20 give a sense of the concept. Sacraments are also called "mysteries" (in the east); in Ephesians 5:32, we see marriage (or maybe the Church) declared a mystery, and 1 Timothy 3:16 calls Christ a mystery. Applying these ideals, many people are comfortable calling celebrations of baptism and the Lord's Supper "sacraments" or "mysteries" (signs of God's influence that can be perceived by or demonstrated through the senses). Those who aren't comfortable with the term "sacrament" typically call them "ordinances" (mandates) (compare to Exodus 12:14).
Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Are there any records of the Church fathers that record these gifts as still functioning? I have been trying to trace at what point in church history do we see in activity of the Holy Spirit. What is it pre Nicene or post. I have not located any record or teaching about the baptized speaking in tongues after they were baptized.
HI Rose there are many examples recorded of the gifts functioning.. I myself am Welsh and David often referred to reports that the Patron Saint of Wales - St David is reported to have spoken in Tongues also check out these links
- the blog sites of Sam Storms and Andrew Wilson have some excellent academic studies.
www.samstorms.org/enjoying-god-blog/post/spiritual-gifts-in-church-history--1-#
What was the answer? I don't see his reply
A bibbia parla del vero dono nn della glossoleria stiamo attenti a lingue che nn vengono da Dio la bibbia parla chiara erano pet evangelizzare il dono
30:00 Still do not get it...
Could someone help me understand what he meant by receiving the spirit?
Thanks!
How do you know when you have received the Holy Spirit? As David says - “it will be audible and or visible”, you will know without question
If I may share with you a word of personal testimony?
When I became a Christian I went through the process, I repented and stopped doing the thing that were wrong in my life, I believed in Jesus, I was baptised in water ......I became a Christian! And I had that assurance that one day I would see and be with Jesus in Heaven
But a dear old man kept asking me one specific question, he asked the same question on many different occasions
-" have you received the power ?"
I was not sure II I understood the question at that time but my answer was always the same " of course Ive received the power - Ive been born again - I am a Christian - I believe and I have confessed Jesus is Lord "
But something was missing, I felt “ I “ was missing something
Firstly I did not feel any different to before I was a Christian and I kind of hoped or expected something would be different - but it was not and whatever this power was, I was not sure I had it
So I went searching for this power. I learned very quickly that the question originates from what Jesus says in Acts 1
“You will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you and you will witness….. “
I could honestly say I did not feel any power - so I could only conclude the Holy Spirit had not come upon me.
Forgive me for shortening this Testimony but when the Holy Spirit did eventually come upon me, when I received the Holy Spirit, when I was drenched in Holy Spirit, I knew without question I had received power and the evidence was audible and visual
- power in prayer
- power to witness
In Acts 2:38 Peter replied - Repent, be Baptised in the name of Jesus, for the forgiveness of Sins and you shall received the gift of the Holy Spirit “
I now read this as …….To receive the Holy Spirit you need to repent, and be forgiven and that includes to be immersed in water. If you do not repent and if you have not been forgiven how can you received the ‘Holy’ Spirit?
David recorded a teaching series on Practicing the Principles of Prayer - the first 3 talks in this series which has been uploaded to UA-cam : Praying to the Father , Praying through the Son and the 3rd part - Praying in the Spirit . It was this 3rd talk that had the greatest impact on my understanding of receiving the Holy Spirit
But this is not as some believe a one off event, you need to be continually filled with the Holy Spirit.
I do not feel this power in my Christian life 24 x 7 , I am a mere human being and I can drift away, and sometimes feel very distant from The Lord at times
Just as Jesus said to his Disciples, you have been baptised but you need to keep washing your feet, keep repenting and asking for forgiveness,……..and if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from any unrighteousness ….and if you ask … you will receive
David recorded a number of helpful talks which you will find on UA-cam
- The Key Steps to Becoming a Christin Covers receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit
- Practicing thePrinciples of Prayer
- Anointed an Filler with the Holy Spirit
- The Holy Spirit ……….which we have just started to upload to Davids UA-cam Channel , will teach you everything you need to know about The Holy Spirit
May you seek and may you will find the answer to what it means to receive the Holy Spirit
@@DavidPawsonMinistry Thank you so much for replying to my question!
Your testimony is very helpful!
I found his teaching so refreshing and making a lot of sense. I wish I had none his work before I got baptized in water. I believe I missed the first step, repenting! Which I now understand is very important. I believe I did not receive the Holy Spirit at that time...
Many thanks for sharing David's work with all of us! So important!
@@ancora966 hi don’t give up searching for this power - everyone’s testimony is unique to them - In the book of Acts everything seems so simple and instant but they did have Paul or Peter there to teach them and pray for them ….. may be that made a difference
I grew up in a Traditonal Baptist Church so there was a lot of teaching on baptism but little teaching in the Holy Spirit
They would not let you take communion if you had not been baptised so there was a motivation to be baptised - even a wrong motivation
So when I was baptised that was it …….- there was no expection of anything else, my questioning and searching for what was missing in my life took almost 4 years of ‘ unrest’ , often opening up my heart and even crying to the Lord on top of mountains asking Him to show me more
But he did not disappoint when I did eventually receive the Holy Spirit …… why did it take soo long?
I have no idea …..
Also there is so little teaching these days on the real meaning of baptism. For some it’s not important just one if those things you have to do because the Bible says we have to do it
David once asked me in person - why is Baptism important ?
My answer, and I was always hesitant in answering because I feared I would give the wrong answer .
- because it’s a public profession of faith ?
- It’s to symbolise the Jews leaving bandage in Egypt and entering the promised land ??
- it’s off with the old and in with the new
But it was always good to add …. Davjd so tell me - why is baptism soooo important ?
Davids answer was - the importance of baptism is not what we do in going through the waters …….. it’s what God does for us when we honour him in going through the water ?!?!?!
Please don’t dismiss your baptism just because you may now feel you did not do everything in the right order - just read book of Acts and you will see so many different ‘ orders’
Some received the Holy Spirit before they were baptised in water and there seemed to be a rush to get them baptised because they had missed out that step
I believe there is a biblical order but what is most important is we go through the 4 steps and don’t miss any
In a nutshell Baptism in water is a sacrament - an act that has divine consequences. When we go through the waters of baptism God does something for us ….It’s not just an outward symbol
How can a catholic pagan worshiper of mary be baptized in holy spirit?
Two weakness of both....charismatics live by feelings and evangelicals live their intreptation of scripture,,,,,
if you have time , please look at the ministry of OPEN DOORS , thank you.
You cannot lump Pentecostals and charismatics in the same group because there are major differences in the fundamentals of their two belief systems
Great teacher but you lost me if you meant babble heavenly tongues but it was many earthly tongues of the time as many people were there for Passover and the Holy Spirit gave them the languages to speak to their fellow Jews about Jesus sending the Helper. I also do not believe in post Trib rapture for the Believers.
If all the evangelicals joined together believing that it would be time I leave the church building. As a evangelical I remember when the new birth came to me when I humbled myself and truly repented and I received the Lord as Saviour then the HS at that time gave me the spiritual gifts God wanted me to have although it took time to understand it all and an extra and a special gift for the love for Israel, Jerusalem and Chosen people in which I still have today 45 years later. For I know the HS lives in me since my accepting the Lord as Saviour and Lord of my life, I do not want or miss the what you call heavenly prayer language for I don’t think it’s from God, he also knows what I think and when I focus on Him before to pray from my heart and when words are not perfect He understands. Disappointed in this one teaching and your expecting the Church saints to go through the Tribulation for seven years when we are the most persecuted and lukewarm now and is a struggle to keep the faith even believing in the Lord at times but He is faithful to be with us and I will be glad to be watching from above.
I mean this st.david of wales
Great teaching sir. My question is why will you put Jesus on the same pedestal as every Charismatic, And to some extent his apostles?
Can it not possible be that the dimensions of their signs and wonders was to authenticate the new covenant the new covenant God was making with his people like He did with Moses? Jesus exercise authority over the works of the devil, he exercised authority over sickness and death and also authority over nature. So is this supposed to be like the normal for every believer?
Again you mentioned the baptism of the Holy Spirit in acts was just normal experiential events, I will argue that. In Acts 2, it was supernatural; the Holy Spirit came down like a mighty rushing wind, and thorns of fire was visible on them. That’s not normal. In acts 4, when they prayed the place was shaken and they were filled with the Spirit. I think there was some sought of a supernatural when ever the gift of the Holy Spirit came in Acts.
Jesus said it should be normal for every believer
Johns Gospel 14:12-14. Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these
15:50 Nope. Mary did not speak in tongues. It is clear from the text that at Pentecost, that those filled with the Holy Spirit spoke in different languages. "And they were amazed and astonished, saying, "Are not these who are speaking, Galileans? And how is it that we hear each of us in his own native language?" Acts 2:7-8
+Doug R tongues = languages. Just older english.
+Yokozuna Kananoumi Each of them heard in their native language. If they were speaking in tongues, then the crowd would have said, "Why are they babbling like that?" It is clear from the scripture that earthly languages are spoken. Verses 7-11 lists different countries. Different countries speak different languages. Everyone there heard languages. Peace to you.
well, you equate toungues with babbling, but in the bible the word equating to "language" was translated "tongues" only because of the way the english language functioned at that time, and it has stuck in newer translations because people are used to saying it. So maybe what you are trying to say can be said better if you modify your terminology, such as, "unearthly language" to build on your "earthly language", or "unknown language", something like that. In the way it is used in the bible I am speaking to you in a tongue right now, that tongue is called english.
+Yokozuna Kananoumi Then Pawson is saying that Mary spoke in several different earthly languages?
Well, Mary was present and active at pentacost, whatever you want ot call that. In context, of course he meant "unearthly languages" or whatever you want to call it. I simply want to make the point that the distinction isn't one made in the bible, and that every time you see the word "tongues", you can substitute the word "language". Paul talks about the gift of intepretation, which clearly means that they spoke in unknown languages as well.
I'm sorry but the music of the Charismats also known as contemporary music, is not just a youth style. It has theology behind it and its theology goes with its roots of the Jesus people movement which has bad roots, with its teacher being Frisbee which was a homosextual drug addict, keith green which was effected by his Spiritualism that he took from eastern spiritualism who mixed his meditation and world music with christian words, and others that borrowed things from new age theology, black and white magic, khabala, the kundalini spirit. The "worship"that they do is not worship of God. Its false theology started in churches like bethel, vineyard movement
The roots of the Jesus People movement are bad not good.
tnttube1234
1 second ago
Is Jesus God before being baptised?? 🤔🤔
Of course my friend, but he kept all thing as Bible says.
Btw, where can I find documentation for the claim that Charles Spurgeon spoke in tongues? Thanks.
I always thought the gift of speaking in tongues is understand other languages so you can go in to the world and spread the gospel
@@bjornvandervalkread the Bible, that is not what is being said in, Corinthians 12 and 14, Jude 1:20, acts is full of it. You need to relisten to the lecture.
@@ichernichenko „And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.“
Acts 2:4-6 KJV
It’s clear for me!
@bjornvandervalk what is clear to you can you explain? That they spoke in languages the others can understand?
Who were those men that came to Jerusalem to worship?
Were they gentiles, or maybe....JEWS...who were taught how to speak Jewish since they were kids. If you didn't know that, then you are not informed of history and the practices of Jewish communities.
How did they know that those that spoke were all Galilians??? The same way you probably know that people that say Yall are probably from texas or Tennessee, the same way you can probably pick out someone speaking in a boston accent. You have to know the language really well to understand that.
So they knowing that these men were all Galilians, because they could speak Hebrew, but God spoke thru the apostles in the language of those people as well as a sign that something miraculous had happened, which btw not in all of the toungues of the people, because some of them thought they spoke gibberish, why??? Because they accused them of being drunk...
Now let me ask you this. Why is there a need for the gift of interpretation if the toungues that everyone is given is always understandable?
Why would Paul say, if there is no interpreter don't speak in toungues but speak in your normal language, why if you know the language speak in toungues at all then? It doesn't make logical sense for me to stand up in front of a english church and start speaking a different language thru an interpreter if I already know the language.
Tell me then, why did the Corinthians need toungues? Most people there already spoke the same languages, mainly Greek and Latin.
Who did Peter get up after that and speak to about the fact that they are not drunk? What language was it???? How could 3,000 of them understand him and get baptized? Because they spoke the same language.
@@ichernichenko Israel location on a crossroad where people travel from Africa, Asia and Europe, if people traveled from Siria to Egypt they crossed Israel and probably Jerusalem
Is there a manuscript of this teaching?
Hi Paul this is Steve
- May I please ask the reason for your question?
- David authored a book based on this talk
www.davidpawson.org/books/word-and-spirit-together/
- if there is a specific reason why you would like the actual transcript of Davids talk please write to me at contact@davidpawson.net and I will investigate further
@@DavidPawsonMinistry Yes sure I wanted the text of the short definition of a Charismatic Evangelical from the internet because I was then going to send an email to the publishers of the book because I possess the book to ask if I could share that excerpt with a fellow Christian otherwise I'll have to share the link with them to hear the sermon in full to see what the definition is instead of me sum it up in a few sentences
@@PaulButtpwbutt Hi Paul - the publishers of the book is Anchor Recordings - and I have the authority to grant you permission to share that definition, we just ask that you give credit to David as the author - Steve
Modernism and neo evangelicalism
Wrong about the Catholic Church. It proclaims the Trinity- Father, Son & Holy Spirit. Jesus is the mediator between God & Man, Mary is the "mediator" between Jesus & Man. The Bible is NOT ABOUT Mary, but of God and His Salvation of Mankind from Sin & Death. Mary WAS His CHOSEN Instrument to activate His Plan of Redemption. But, as with EVERY creation, God gave Mary too the FREEDOM of Choice. She was not a puppet or an egg as Protestants portray her. Mary too NEEDED a Saviour, she was saved from Original sin and it's consequences by God's SPECIAL grace by which she was "redeemed". She "realised" that and broke into song " the Magnificat". She acknowledges her situation and gives God the glory. You should know that David.
What language did St Peter speak to Cornelius? Was it "gibberish" or was it his own language or was it the language of Cornelius? The "tongues" of today is a far cry from the "tongues" during the Apostolic age. The Bible has 3 stages- The Acts of God ie OT, the Acts of Jesus and the Acts of the Holy Spirit through the Apostles and IN the Church. There is documented proof that "tongues" have ceased as such and only rare individuals have this gift for a particular purpose for a particular period. Have you known of widespread action of Charismatics picking up snakes and no harm done? Or drinking poison and no harm??
Thanks for the information though you meant for some David, :). My major question after reading your comment is this: Jesus is the ONLY mediator between God & Man. Is Mary the ONLY mediator between Jesus and Man? Is so, where in the Bible this is taught? If not, why it is necessary to teach people to pray to Mary?
There may have been documented proof that "tongues" have ceased and it's no longer usual for Christians to pickup snakes without being harmed. But is this fact due to Man's decreasing desire to be constantly filled by the Holy Spirit, or due to God stopped blessing us nowadays as much? If it is later, how did you get your answer?
Mary is no mediator, just a human being like all of us. This one of the big heresies of the catholic church. Another big heresy is claiming the pope has replaced Jesus as head of the church and mediator. The Pope is just a follower of a false religion
The Catholic church is a 100% pagan institution
Where in the bible does it state that our Blessed Virgin Mary spoke in tongues!
Hi this is Steve
- Acts Chpt 1 states Mary the mother of Jesus was with everyone in the upper room and then as we go into Chpt 2 it said that
- “all of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues.
It is a deduction but but it does not say there were any exceptions
- All of them .......began to speak
And they are both man-made religious movements devoid of the Holy Ghost
Incorrect. Calvinism and Cessationism are dead wrong and have nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. Charismatics and Penecostals dont have everything wrong and I don’t throw out the baby with the bath water.
@@aubriellemorgan Charismatics and Pentecostals are all flip heads. They are dead wrong. Their hyper religion leads many astray. I don't see the slightest hint of any such man made movements in the bible. They don't even remotely resemble the book of Acts' accounts.
That's not why tongues were given and He should have known better.
The gospel is very clear in several places the apostles cast out devils and healed all manner of sickness. Also the 70 disciples that Jesus sent out two by two. All this was before the day of Pentecost. This is basic bible study, very very disappointing, I'd liked what i heard this man say in other videos. He's to well read not to have known what the bible actually says.