I thought your response to this issue was well-thoughout, expressed in a respectful manner and made great sense. I look forward to you continuing to educate me. Thank you!
I'm glad you did a followup Herm, because some of the comments on your first video were truly over the top, incl the one you mentioned at the end, obviously. I'm also glad you clarified that the horse was wearing leg wraps and that the lashes were all below the hock. I didn't realize either of those things. I thought she was getting him above the hock, on the hair.
I do not condone any kind of abuse but I equally do not condone disproportionate reactions. The video stands and there is no denial 🥺. Creating false narrative is just as terrible. Two wrongs do not make a right. I have witnessed real horse abuse: chains in bleeding mouths, lame animals being whipped until dropping down in the shafts of farm carts, too weak to get up, nose spikes on the inside of nosebands sold openly on the internet used openly in a European country, not to mention other common practices in other types of horse sports that are far worse. Whether an animal, any animal, is used to help man work, or whether it is a different means of living, through sport, the welfare of animals should come first. Whether a person has a good living standard or is quite poor, animal abuse is not acceptable but as with laws for humans, if you commit murder (worst crime) cause grievous bodily harm, rape, mug, bully, push, stalk a person etc. etc. They are not all classed the same, and do not all carry the same punishment. Punishment which is, however, decided by a judge. If we, the public, react so strongly against Charlotte because she is famous, what are we going to do about bull fighting, rodeos, walking horses, farm horses, trail ride horses, 'tourist' rides? etc. etc. Where again not all horses are cruelly treated but many are mamed for life, killed, or die excruciating deaths. We must start putting things into perspective or we will never help the very animals that help us. Just a thought.
Good thoughts. A bit sobering,though. While it may be more difficult to define where abuse begins the episodes you provide certainly illustrate where it ends. The only real meaningful response is for all to look inside themselves and decide what kind of humans they want to be. I can only wonder if that is going to happen or not.
Herm, you are much fairer minded than I am. I give no quarter whatsoever when it comes to animal abuse, child abuse, or elder abuse. People know better and should do better. I don't believe for a moment that this was a one-off event, I firmly believe it is a pattern of behavior. I base that upon my many years in the industry and the frank abuse I have seen across all the disciplines; from rodeo to racing, western performance, eventing, reining and cutting, and dressage, even halter! Abuse is rampant in the industry and nothing is ever done about it, even in the worst cases. The good thing about this situation is that it has brought the abuse to light and people are aware that it happens at the highest level now and those who engage in such behavior are now aware they can and will be exposed. Of course, the downside is that there will be the extremists who take their response too far, but all in all, I'm glad this issue has been brought to light, there has been far too much suffering for far too long.
Though I am may be a bit more liberal with second chances than you would be I certainly totally endorse everything you’re saying. Thank you for your thoughtful and heartfelt comment.
Colleen; I agree with your comments unequivocally and I am so happy and relieved the abuse in all areas of riding is finally being addressed! The Saddlebred and Tennessee Walker industry have a lot to account for also! Animals are sentient beings and God given. There has to be a change now. I have to state, even with the horse wearing boots and knee wraps, this had to be very traumatic to this poor animal. Who knows how this animal's brain actually processed or coped with this abuse. I would love to know what happened to this rider and horse. Be kind to all animals. There is karma.
I think your proposal is sound, but I feel that she should also be sentenced to substantial service hours in horse rescue for the 5 years you proposed.
@@hermgaileyalifetimewithhorses I should also have said as a supervised stable hand, not a trainer/instructor, not bringing horses that have suffered enough into her own facility. Edit: she would obviously bring a great resource to the facility operators while learning what abuse does to its victims.
@@rhondab9792 Well if you yourself pay for animal abuse and eat these horrifically treated animals you could be sentenced to work in a slaughter house.
I believe we will not be responsible for ending charlotte dujarbin s equestrian career, she has already done that herself. If she truly loves the sport she needs to remember that without the horse she brings nothing to this competition. What good are impecable riding skills without the ones who make them obtainable? The question of what's next belongs to her, who will she advocate for, herself or the horse?
I agree that Charlotte Dujardin’s career is in a shambles of her own making. Certainly we are all accountable for our own actions and must live with the consequences. Whatever the final action of the dressage authorities may be,public opinion will undoubtedly impose its own heavy sanction. That is as it should be. I agree with you wholeheartedly that all of us owe our equine companions and partners a real debt of gratitude and appreciation.As you say, without the horse there would be no horse competitions. Thanks for your thoughts and thank you for watching.
Having just watched the duJardin video for umpteenth time, I think it's clear the whip strikes often land above the wraps. The laughing and whip cracking are just revolting.
Thank you for your observations. Certainly if some of the blows with the whip struck above the wraps this may have stung more than those which hit the protected area. Be that as it may I stand by my belief that the physical element of this pales beside the psychological distress which was inflicted. On that point I suspect we agree.
Hey Herm, there is a lot of learning to come from all of this, makes you really think as a trainer or giving demos to the public that people have such a different perspective of what is being too hard or cruel to animals, and what is not letting the animal run over us and take over which so many do. Good chance to remind us all, especially some of the haters to think what another horse does to another horse out in the paddock, kick bite strike, then get back to eating grass, as you know those kicks bites strikes really hurt! Definitely a lot more than a flimsy dressage whip! Do we really think what Charlotte was doing to this horse was that bad??? the worst thing was the fact (as you mentioned) that the horse was uncomfortable (which wasn’t helped by the pressure from the whip)but from the rider not allowing the horse to find some sort of release, to me that is the problem, I realise this would have been the instruction of charlotte, and I am sure as many of us do after maybe not training as good as we know we should would look back on this and say yip I should not have gone about this issue this way? that’s all part of being a good trainer, having the ability to re assess, think it just proves that good horsemanship/stockmanship that you and others are teaching really is the key. I feel like we all get a chance to learn from this to keep our heads in the game and be the best we can be and always be thinking that there is a better way?Thanks for talking about this Herm from a sound minded view all the best From Nz
Nice to hear from New Zealand. You make an excellent point that sometimes when we speak to a horse in their own language, as we should, this may involve some physical contact. That is part of communication with horses. As you point out, they certainly do this among themselves. I also agree that far too many people have taken an extreme stance in terms of defining anything that is unpleasant to the horse as abuse. It is unpleasant to me when a horse runs over me. If I need to be physical with the horse to prevent that I certainly will and I will not apologize. So, good point. I completely agree. I fear that there are many out there who do not.
A lunge whip can be cracked in the air and not necessarily touching the horse . On the occasions that it did touch there was no sign of blood drawn. Yes other disciplines can be overwhelming cruel. There are better ways of persuading an animal to comply. She should have been training the rider who in turn will train the animal. Personally I dislike the lippizaner training too.
Thank you for your thoughts. I agree that this is only want to one example which is representative of things that go on every day in the horse world. Hopefully we can do better
I do agree that Charlotte is the best of the best rider, and the riding and training of the horse does not always progress on equal levels. It can bring out frustrations when knowledge ends and results are expected from others as you help with their horses - people who do not ride as well as you and are expecting big results. Still, that is no reason for abuse to happen.... one can simply walk away and admit defeat with that combination you are trying to help. I also believe Charlotte has most likely changed her techniques within the past 4 years since - as she has developed more horses to upper levels that seem so happy and proud to work for her (something hardly anyone else can equal) as well as give multiple public clinics helping several would be champions. We don't see what goes on behind the barns of any competitive horse trainer.... we are all speculating and judging by what they put out there in the competitive arena. Your penalty sounds fair and just with hope for Charlotte's future. I don't think her career needs to be over unless she wants it to be..... which she might have already decided it's over. I for one, would miss the brilliant future happy stars that she would be sure to produce for us to admire. Good grief .... people learn and do better!!!!
The issue isn’t the physical damage to the horse particularly as people think it was hit on the bandages but the long term psychological damage of being beaten when not doing anything wrong. Recreating this as a physical exercise doesn’t factor in the years of fear that horse will go through
Actually, we completely agree. If you listen to either of the two videos I made on this subject my precise point is that the physical damage or pain pales in comparison to the psychological distress inflicted. That was the true abuse. Bottom line, we are on the same page.
You identified the true abuse of mind and emotions. That was far worse than the stings of the whip. It’s hard to heal the emotional harm. I’ve had more than one abused horse come to me. Regaining trust and confidence can take years. The amazing thing to me is how forgiving the horse an be, a capacity we as humans need to learn. We can be so harsh and judgmental towards each other.
Yes, indeed, we do totally agree. Horses can tolerate a lot of physical discomfort but mental and emotional distress can destroy them. Thanks for your comment and thanks for watching.
The thing is, a horse in true connection, can not physically lift its back legs in the way it's praised in competition. The only way, is to build immense core strength in the horse, so that when it is on the hand, in collection, has the strength to "kick itself in the stomach" sort of. Because the back legs are supposed to be underneath the horse, it's supposed to be stepping underneath itself, in the trace of the front feet. Lifting up the front, and shifting the weight from the front to the more powerful back. This is seen in different degrees, during competitions, where piaffe is the highest collection. When you are more focused on how high the back legs are stepping, rather than where they are stepping, or how collected the horse is. You get the circus performances that's regarded today. It has nothing to do with true collection, nothing to do with a sound working horse, and everything to do with doing what gives the highest score.
Wow. I hope other folks read your comment as you put your finger right on one of the problems with much of modern competitive training. Basically, we are talking about losing the purity of a horses movement. Essentially, the movement of the back legs does not properly correspond with the movement of the front legs. This is very visible in movements such as the extended trot,passage and piaffe If we stopped rewarding horses for doing showy but incorrect movements this would be an important correction in the standard of excellence. Again, thanks for your insight.
Dear Herm, thank you very much for speaking out in such a thoughtful and reflective way and trying to take your viewers with you in exploring your thinking of how to respond to this problem … i might have got this wrong but here is my tuppence worth … i think there are a number of interrelated questions here and in some ways despite this being catastrophic for Charlotte herself I agree it does provide an opportunity to reset what is acceptable for how humans work with horses to achieve the goals of the human … It seems that what is an acceptable way to work with horses to achieve the humans aim is informed by the views of the very small group of horse people who are working at an elite level and then there is the much larger group of onlookers (including me )who do not work at that elite level … I do not know Charlotte but I would be open to the fact that she is not an intentionally cruel and sadistic person but has grown up and operated within a culture and landscape of practise that produces and competes with horses at an elite level… It may be that what she did was not common but not uncommon in that world of producing elite level horses. Aside from the fact it was abusive and really bad training and the horse didn’t appear to have any clue what he was supposed to be doing in response to being whipped …. and aside from the sinister snigger which appeared to condone Charlottes behaviour and certainly signalled to the culture in which Charlotte was operating, I think we have to handle this situation v carefully in order for things to really improve for horses … In my view we need to respond firstly in relation to Charlotte as an individual but also the elite bubble in which she operates in a proportionate way … There is a real danger here that Charlotte will be demonised and treated as though what she did was a one off and not representative of elite level dressage competitors and trainers and let everyone else off the hook if similar practise in not uncommon amongst her peers… .. If what Charlotte did and if other controversial training methods are common in order to quickly produce horses to fit with particular rules and a restrictive finance model then there will be pressure from the elite to want all blame to fall on Charlotte and so resist any requirement that change is required across the board at the elite level … if abusive practices are not uncommon at this level as some folk suggest then this outcome will not help horses… Maybe things need to looked at across the board to ensure harsh training methods are not being encouraged by unrealistic expectations on riders and horses … Finally if what Charlotte did or similar is not uncommon then we should expect similar videos being out there somewhere .. I agree Charlotte should be punished with a ban for a period of tine and then probation but i think the probation period should begin from now onwards so she and others have an opportunity to change .. maybe we need to apply some of a training mindset to this situation and consider how to shape behaviour and practise in Charlotte and elite horse competitors more generally … from what people have said it might be helpful if Charlotte has specific training to improve her skills in horse training… or indeed in an ideal world it would be good if people had greater access to educated and high quality horse training across the board more generally…… sorry this is so long a post …
Thanks for your thoughts. I agree that expecting so much of high-level competition horses creates an environment in which extreme methods are almost in evitable. Whether or not we can educate or punish this problem away is, unfortunately, unclear to me at this point. What is clear is that it is absolutely worth trying. Thanks for your very thoughtful comment and thank you for watching.
Very well thought out response. I wonder if this was an isolated incident or a pattern? A lengthy probation could answer that. Regarding gifted, athletic riders, some of the are just that and have no ability or patience to train horses or teach people.
Well said, my sentiments entirely. No one as far as I can see has considered the Horse/Rider interaction during the process. If I was sitting up there I would probably have the brakes on unconsciously or consciously. I have been in that situation in the past, not with my approval I should add.
Yes. The young rider was put in an almost impossible situation. Consider that she was being taught by someone she had every reason to trust and respect. That makes the bad judgment and abuse even more disturbing.
Charlotte's case is a big and public one in the dressage world and possibly the most impactful "punishment" for her now is that she'll be blacklisted. Even if she can ride again no one should, and very few people will, want her to train their riders/horses. That will hit her in the finances and hopefully cause a long lasting lesson. It hurts that it was such a huge person in the competitive dressage world but if she was doing it, she needs to be treated this way. Now we have a basis on which other big names who ARE seriously hurting their horses, can be also held accountable.
You are absolutely correct that the reputational and financial consequences of the abuse will have far greater repercussions on Charlotte Dujardin than any penalty the FEI may provide. I appreciate your observations and appreciate that you watch this video. Hope to hear from you again.
Thanks for this very considered opinion. I think your proposal for the penalty maybe well within the range of what the FEI will finaly come up with. I agree that she deserves a 2nd chance. That is a fundmentaly principle of law in a civilized society. Her punishment in terms of lost Olympic success, other international competitions and reputation as well as further financial impact with sponsors withdrawing support, lost revenues for training classes and horse presentations will be substantial as well. There is every chance of her learning from this and do better in the future. She already is a very strong case for everybody in the horseworld to review their own behavior and improve if needed, which for some people may well be the case.
Thanks for your thoughts. I agree that regardless of what the authorities do there will be considerable repercussions careerwise which should be a powerful lesson for Charlotte Dujardin and others who watch this situation develop.
Probation is not within the scope of FEI sanctions but such a good idea for future cases, if not this one. Please mention it to USEF so that, as a member NF of the FEI, they can put it forward to the annual FEI rules review.
A great interpretation of the Charlotte episode. Lets take the focus off her and put it globally. What we all need to address is the abuse in the horse industry as a whole. How do we? It starts with whose paying the bills. The owners....trainers generally are not wealthy...not always true...but as a general rule owners/riders foot the bill for the training of horses. As an owner who left a sport because of the abuse of a horse...change has to start with us. We should no longer be okay with a trainer who abuses a horse. And as a rider we have to say no. also the people working with the trainers..etc groom, assisting in getting a horse ready...im sure they see alot. We all need to say enough. For me what is saw in the Charlotte video is mild(although not right) in comparison to what I've seen in the barns of western pleasure,reining,cutting barns. We as owners shouldn't look the other way. in doing so we are to blame as well.
You are, unfortunately, completely correct in recognizing that there is a whole cycle of abuse with one component feeding the next. Likewise, you have accurately identified the fact that this is a global problem in most horse sports to one degree or another. There are, however, certainly good ethical trainers who use humane methods. What is a shame is seeing those people being bested in competition by others who use inappropriate but at least temporarily and superficially effective means. Perhaps with concerted effort and a real commitment to change that change can happen and the real winners will be the horses.
your assessment is very fair of the whole situation, I would say as a horse trainer 3 to 4 uses of the lunge whip would tell you if you were getting the desired effect even with the most lazy horse,and as horse trainers Sir we know it is the release of pressure
I agree wholeheartedly. While motivation with an aid such as a lunge whip is appropriate it makes no sense to continue when that exercise proves funeral as it did here. I agree with you. Try this alternative but abandon it quickly if it is useless or counterproductive
Thai is a very difficult situation! CD is the best rider I’ve ever seen! She changed dressage for the better everyone had to change how they rode to beat her , much softer rider ! I’ve been pleased to see that there have not been any more videos come to light of her teaching , she must teach lots of riders famous or not , whom could have come forward and slated her they haven’t!! So I’m hoping this was a one off , the lady laughing in the background is worse this was her horse!! I think with the bad press and the media interest with this story must been very damaging for her , but I do hope that her mental health is good and she can learn from this and come back an even better trainer and compete again ! But I’m sure she will want to come out into this world leaving herself open to any kind of criticism again which is sad in my view! I think FEI will hopefully be talking to people she does train and see what they are saying!
In terms of penalty I do think the concept that prevented severe punishment of former President Richard Nixon after bad conduct in office which basically said he had “suffered enough“ might indeed be in order here. Certainly the damage she has sustained and the loss of reputation far exceeds whatever likely penalty may be exacted by the dressage authorities.
Ms. Dujardin gave dressage and all horse sports a black eye. I'm sure she's not the only person who has worked a horse hard. There are a lot of questions here - her frustration level, the horse's history and level of training AND ABILITY, and what the rider was doing while Charlotte was using the whip. How experienced was the rider? After an FEI investigation and evaluation by her peers of her actions, an appropriate penalty can be decided. What she does as a trainer and a rider GOING FORWARD will tell us what kind of effect the penalty had, and if it's possible for her to continue in the sport.
Thanks for your comment. All of the questions you pose are completely relevant to fully assessing the penalty which is appropriate in this case and in simply judging the gravity of the offense. Thank you for your well reasoned position.
I mentioned the 4yrs gap (as the fact of change in a persons attitude/training) & told it was 18mths. So right there is a SM discrepancy. She taught my daughter before going to Carl's and I for that level she was a good coach. I think the punishment you speak of is fair. My only frustration is she was not alone there are those that where complicit in this the woman laughing, the rider (19 is old enough to speak up) and I believe there was a 4th. What is happening to them? The whole situation is just so sad. I hope I misunderstood your comment that it did not hurt being hit with the lunge whip, because mate, it stung me! The force seen on the video would have been felt by the horse & if it didn't then there would have been no reaction at all. And baring in mind that a horse can feel a fly land, those feelings are going to be far more sensitive then most humans. The fact is that while people are willing to open up to new ideas, they will change view points. Things I did as a child, teenager, young adult & beyond have altered through time. As we learn more we adjust our behaviours. And something you thought was ok 4yrs ago, could well be something you never visit again. A leopard doesn't change it's spots because it is part of it, attitudes, behaviour is changeable when open to do so.
Thank you for your comment. I agree that people can change and this may be a powerful motivator for Charlotte Dujardin. I am also encouraged by the fact that it least to date this is the only such occurrence that has come to light. Anyone can have a bad day and make bad choices. As to my comment about the whip not hurting I do think you may be reading too much into that. My point was that any actual physical harm was negligible. The real abuse here was mental and psychological. Bottom line, I think we pretty much completely agree.
Charlotte Dujardin loves her life with horse. What she did was not done out of malice. I believe it was done our of over confidence and complaisance about her training methods. There was a great measure of glibness in he whipping the lunge at the horse in the manner of flicking a wet towel at someone, which is a form of bullying but is not done with malice. I agree with everything you have said Herm.
I have just seen your comment and i agree with you. Parents expect quick results for their offspring. Charlotte wanted this horse to get his back legs more under so he would carry himself better. The proper way is tempo changes and half halts, I doubt she uses this whip method on her own horses. I look forward to her own explanations and i'm sure it will never happen again.
Herm im sorry to here you say that it was 4 yrs ago and maybe she has changed. The minute she rode into a Olympic arena she knew the rules. She was a professional..shes been a professional for more than a decade by the time of that video..
Certainly a valid point of view. I am not suggesting, however, that she is free of blame. Only that an over correction can be as unfair as no correction at all.
@hermgaileyalifetimewithhorses true about the over correction..I understand that fear. It's up to people like you and tim Anderson and others that invite the public into their barns and training arenas that show that it's not all bad..I am sorry if I have caused some trouble in the comment section on your last video..guess it shows I was ranch raised..lolwas riding a horse before I could walk as they say..it makes me more verbal about this subject.
The video shows that a great rider doesn't make for a great trainer..its two different skill and knowledge. I use to love watching her till that video. I lost all respect..maybe im being to harsh but its where i am..
I can understand your feelings and you may well be right. I do thinkshe deserves a second chance in her career. As to whether or not she earns a second chance in your regard, that is completely up to you and either result is completely understandable.
@hermgaileyalifetimewithhorses her and velegro brought me back into watching dressage..I now question not just her but alot of the others..dressage as I was taught is one of the hardest disaplines to train..it takes the longest to train to that level..and to now to suspect that serious "short cuts" are being taken hurt the sport..
physical harm is fleeting, we heal, we forget the pain, what is MUCH more damaging, FOR ANYONE, and much harder to heal than physical pain is the internal pain, of the mind, heart, and spirit. the issue is not about the physical pain, its about the accepted daily abuses that horses endure and the disrespect and disdain that too many equestrians show to the horses. it is a systemic issue, deeply rooted, and its time for change. humans fear change, they shouldnt, with change comes growth, with growth comes transformation. please consider using your platform not to defend the old, archaic ways, but, to start talking about how to facilitate the major changes that we desperately need in our industry.
I agree with what you were saying. I hope that you understand that it has never been my intention to defend old archaic ways. Indeed, the desire to see things change is why I delved into this controversy in the first place. When the old ways work we should preserve them. Consider classical horsemanship. On the other hand when they’re outdated and inhumane they should be put out to pasture.
@@hermgaileyalifetimewithhorses " when the old ways work we should preserve them"??? That's one of the more terrifying things I've seen or heard in days, before I comment, and a statement like that leaves me with no choice but to do so, are you sure that's what you want to say?
‘Those who pass judgment are often guiltiest of all ! Not meaning you Herm but people in general I think she has , paid big time missing out on the Olympics and the embarrassment it must have caused her , It was horrible what she did but hope she has learnt from this ,, let’s face it we all make mistakes , time to move on,
I agree that moving on is the right path. However I hope that we are moving on to something better than where we have gotten to presently. I will keep my fingers crossed as I’m sure many of us do.
I agree the others were wrong as well. What should happen to them is a much harder question and one to which I have no ready answer. Thanks for your comment and thank you for watching.
This was a very good assessment of a difficult situation. I think maybe CD herself would agree with you. Obviously it will never happen again. My take would be a hefty fine and probation not a years suspension. The Danish rider Carina Kassøe Kruth who was also suspended from the reserve position on. the olympic team for a video sitting on her horse whipping it got fined 500 pounds and no suspension. CD is under pressure from rich parents expecting her to get their offspring quickly to stardom. The horses Charlotte rides in competitions all look like happy athletes to me. She is known for keeping horses at home for 2 or. 3 years in the middle of their competitive careers and just giving them time to develop into GP horses. I watched the show jumping from the Olympics and to me it looks from the style of the horses hind legs an awful lot of them. have been rapped. Racing horses are whipped hard all the way up to the finishing line. There are plenty of videos on You Tube of top riders using rollkur in the warm up, some are old admittedly . Off topic but people who are screaming abuse conveniently forget they themselves pay every day for horrific. animal abuse and eat them.
Interesting to see your example of the punishment which applied in a similar situation. I agree that simply making Charlotte Dujardin the convenient vessel for all punishment and not following up with enforcement of others conduct would be unfair and counterproductive. Simply put there needs to be a universal reassessment of how animals are handled. That must begin with each individual. If people don’t want to do better they will find ways around even the most vigilant enforcement and those of us who don’t need the enforcement will bear the burden.Hope that doesn’t happen.
That’s it, in my years of working with horses, I learned the best way to get a horse to agree to behaving in the way the human may want, is to make your idea, his/her idea. The important part is is doing it in small enough pieces, that confusion is not on the table. Horses always always seek the answer. In my experience. And I have had experience with square horses being forced into round holes, which eventually creates anger. Or totally shut down. It takes a while with those small questions, to bring them back. And sometimes you can’t. It’s that trust and communication, that goes both ways, that makes the whole being a herd member with a horse, that stirs something deep in me. It holds true with dogs, and even cats. Make your idea thier idea, in thier language, and they will give thier hearts. 💞
She should be sent to a few different trainers who use humane training practices for three years, so she learns some better skills. She should also volunteer at a horse rescue for those three years
While I don’t disagree with you I think that though Charlotte Dujardin’s training skills may fall short they are still quite considerable. Some mentoring would make sense but recall she learned from Carl Hester who certainly has a good reputation for humane treatment of his horses. I’m not sure how much better help she can get. Perhaps the answer is for her to look inside and try to improve.
@hermgaileyalifetimewithhorses that's where all the answers are found within yourself, but you still need a pathway to get there. If Carl Hester's training didn't get her there, maybe a few different examples can get her there. I volunteer at a horse rescue in Australia and seeing the damage that people do to horses and watching how those horses heal might help Charlotte look within herself. People don't look within themselves often. It's hard to do. I've had hundreds of horse riding instructors and hundreds of art teachers and thousands of trainers and mentors in my work. Each one gives me lessons and insights into the work and myself.
I think you are exactly right.However that common sense approach is unlikely to be embraced by most modern competitive dressage riders who seem petrified to allow a horse enough freedom to even draw a breath.
By the way,Pete, I hope you watch(and comment)on this week’s episode. Based on what you know about my background you may well think I have taken leave of my senses!How’s that for a teaser?
Sorry aber ich muss jetzt echt mal sagen ich finde es gut dass das mal gezeigt wird weil das erklärt auch das für den Erfolg von den sogenannten Siegern wer auch immer das definiert warum oder wie man dazu kommt ist ja sehr fraglich dass immer jemand leiden muss für den Erfolg was diese Menschen suchen ist einfach nur sie sind krank von der Gier Erfolg zu haben und dafür müssen andere leiden jemand der es wirklich kann da sind ist die wahren Sieger. Und zwar auf der sprachebene des Pferdes und nicht auf der sprachebene der Peitsche
Thanks to you and thanks to the Google translation app. I’m glad I could comprehend your comment as my knowledge of German is basically limited to recognizing what language is being spoken, not what is being said! I completely agree that success achieved by unethical methods is no success at all. What is accomplished by sheer coercion is, at best, a fleeting gratification of the ego.
Completely disagree! .i've watched the video many time! The fact is, she was very good at whipping! she knew when and how and where to whip the horse! this a very established whipper! we now know how she scared her horses to death to perform! Like you say, in this video the horse didn't really respond to been abused! but when that horses has been whip trained for many months it will be doing anything she asks!!.. Dujardin is an accomplished abuser , she is an EXPERT with whip abuse.....it's very simple what happens next....in any other walkmof life with animal abuse, she needs to be taken to court, and tried with animal abuse....then her Training License must be taken away..and she must never be allowed to own a horse again.....its very simple...Personally 6 months in jail....then lifetime ban.. That is the LAW in UK with animal abusers... why she isnt on trialis beyond me....the police have all the evidence they need....shemust hand back allher Olympic medals...like lance armstrong, won by cheating
Thank you for sharing your point of view. While we disagree as to the consequences I am certainly impressed by the depth of your convictions. One point that might be of interest to you is the fact that, if I am correct, the statute of limitation’s foranimal abuse in the UK is 3 years.If that is accurate and the abuse did, in fact, occur as long ago as 4 years then the event was outside that time limitation. That might explain the lack of police involvement.
@@hermgaileyalifetimewithhorses Hi thankyou for a reply....i think its common knowledge now it was a lot less than 4 years ago....she is very skilled at horse abuse, so not a 1 off...this is something she has done to horses for a long time! I've had horses and my ex wife did..they received only love....this woman is an abuser...a horse is like a child as you know..they depend on us....she took their trust and hurt them....she should never ever be allowed to own a horse ever again...never ever train one!!!...
I thought your response to this issue was well-thoughout, expressed in a respectful manner and made great sense. I look forward to you continuing to educate me. Thank you!
Thank you for your comment and thank you for the respectful and constructive tone.
I'm glad you did a followup Herm, because some of the comments on your first video were truly over the top, incl the one you mentioned at the end, obviously. I'm also glad you clarified that the horse was wearing leg wraps and that the lashes were all below the hock. I didn't realize either of those things. I thought she was getting him above the hock, on the hair.
Thanks for your comment. Thanks, also, for your respectful andthoughtful approach.
Where knowledge ends, frustration begins.
Yes,indeed.Thanks for your comment.
That’s a save quote. Thank you.
I do not condone any kind of abuse but I equally do not condone disproportionate reactions. The video stands and there is no denial 🥺. Creating false narrative is just as terrible. Two wrongs do not make a right. I have witnessed real horse abuse: chains in bleeding mouths, lame animals being whipped until dropping down in the shafts of farm carts, too weak to get up, nose spikes on the inside of nosebands sold openly on the internet used openly in a European country, not to mention other common practices in other types of horse sports that are far worse. Whether an animal, any animal, is used to help man work, or whether it is a different means of living, through sport, the welfare of animals should come first. Whether a person has a good living standard or is quite poor, animal abuse is not acceptable but as with laws for humans, if you commit murder (worst crime) cause grievous bodily harm, rape, mug, bully, push, stalk a person etc. etc. They are not all classed the same, and do not all carry the same punishment. Punishment which is, however, decided by a judge. If we, the public, react so strongly against Charlotte because she is famous, what are we going to do about bull fighting, rodeos, walking horses, farm horses, trail ride horses, 'tourist' rides? etc. etc. Where again not all horses are cruelly treated but many are mamed for life, killed, or die excruciating deaths. We must start putting things into perspective or we will never help the very animals that help us. Just a thought.
You forgot to include farm animals.
Good thoughts. A bit sobering,though. While it may be more difficult to define where abuse begins the episodes you provide certainly illustrate where it ends. The only real meaningful response is for all to look inside themselves and decide what kind of humans they want to be. I can only wonder if that is going to happen or not.
I greatly admire your honest assessment of horse abuse industry wide. Your observations are fair, reasonable and thoughtful! Thank you!❤
Thanks, I needed that!
Herm, you are much fairer minded than I am. I give no quarter whatsoever when it comes to animal abuse, child abuse, or elder abuse. People know better and should do better. I don't believe for a moment that this was a one-off event, I firmly believe it is a pattern of behavior. I base that upon my many years in the industry and the frank abuse I have seen across all the disciplines; from rodeo to racing, western performance, eventing, reining and cutting, and dressage, even halter! Abuse is rampant in the industry and nothing is ever done about it, even in the worst cases. The good thing about this situation is that it has brought the abuse to light and people are aware that it happens at the highest level now and those who engage in such behavior are now aware they can and will be exposed. Of course, the downside is that there will be the extremists who take their response too far, but all in all, I'm glad this issue has been brought to light, there has been far too much suffering for far too long.
Though I am may be a bit more liberal with second chances than you would be I certainly totally endorse everything you’re saying. Thank you for your thoughtful and heartfelt comment.
I hope you don't pay for animal abuse and eat them . That is the worse form of animal abuse on the planet .
Colleen; I agree with your comments unequivocally and I am so happy and relieved the abuse in all areas of riding is finally being addressed! The Saddlebred and Tennessee Walker industry have a lot to account for also! Animals are sentient beings and God given. There has to be a change now. I have to state, even with the horse wearing boots and knee wraps, this had to be very traumatic to this poor animal. Who knows how this animal's brain actually processed or coped with this abuse. I would love to know what happened to this rider and horse.
Be kind to all animals. There is karma.
I think your proposal is sound, but I feel that she should also be sentenced to substantial service hours in horse rescue for the 5 years you proposed.
Excellent idea. I completely agree.
@@hermgaileyalifetimewithhorses I should also have said as a supervised stable hand, not a trainer/instructor, not bringing horses that have suffered enough into her own facility.
Edit: she would obviously bring a great resource to the facility operators while learning what abuse does to its victims.
@@rhondab9792 Well if you yourself pay for animal abuse and eat these horrifically treated animals you could be sentenced to work in a slaughter house.
I believe we will not be responsible for ending charlotte dujarbin s equestrian career, she has already done that herself.
If she truly loves the sport she needs to remember that without the horse she brings nothing to this competition. What good are impecable riding skills without the ones who make them obtainable? The question of what's next belongs to her, who will she advocate for, herself or the horse?
I agree that Charlotte Dujardin’s career is in a shambles of her own making. Certainly we are all accountable for our own actions and must live with the consequences. Whatever the final action of the dressage authorities may be,public opinion will undoubtedly impose its own heavy sanction. That is as it should be. I agree with you wholeheartedly that all of us owe our equine companions and partners a real debt of gratitude and appreciation.As you say, without the horse there would be no horse competitions. Thanks for your thoughts and thank you for watching.
I presume you don't yourself pay for animal abuse and eat them. I'm sure you don't.
Having just watched the duJardin video for umpteenth time, I think it's clear the whip strikes often land above the wraps. The laughing and whip cracking are just revolting.
Thank you for your observations. Certainly if some of the blows with the whip struck above the wraps this may have stung more than those which hit the protected area. Be that as it may I stand by my belief that the physical element of this pales beside the psychological distress which was inflicted. On that point I suspect we agree.
@@hermgaileyalifetimewithhorses totally agree about the horse's suffering.
Whip lands on wall behind wall as well
The ability to ride elegantly does not a trainer make.
Spot on.
Nor does it make a horsewoman.
Hey Herm, there is a lot of learning to come from all of this, makes you really think as a trainer or giving demos to the public that people have such a different perspective of what is being too hard or cruel to animals, and what is not letting the animal run over us and take over which so many do.
Good chance to remind us all, especially some of the haters to think what another horse does to another horse out in the paddock, kick bite strike, then get back to eating grass, as you know those kicks bites strikes really hurt! Definitely a lot more than a flimsy dressage whip! Do we really think what Charlotte was doing to this horse was that bad??? the worst thing was the fact (as you mentioned) that the horse was uncomfortable (which wasn’t helped by the pressure from the whip)but from the rider not allowing the horse to find some sort of release, to me that is the problem, I realise this would have been the instruction of charlotte, and I am sure as many of us do after maybe not training as good as we know we should would look back on this and say yip I should not have gone about this issue this way? that’s all part of being a good trainer, having the ability to re assess, think it just proves that good horsemanship/stockmanship that you and others are teaching really is the key. I feel like we all get a chance to learn from this to keep our heads in the game and be the best we can be and always be thinking that there is a better way?Thanks for talking about this Herm from a sound minded view all the best
From Nz
Nice to hear from New Zealand. You make an excellent point that sometimes when we speak to a horse in their own language, as we should, this may involve some physical contact. That is part of communication with horses. As you point out, they certainly do this among themselves. I also agree that far too many people have taken an extreme stance in terms of defining anything that is unpleasant to the horse as abuse. It is unpleasant to me when a horse runs over me. If I need to be physical with the horse to prevent that I certainly will and I will not apologize. So, good point. I completely agree. I fear that there are many out there who do not.
A lunge whip can be cracked in the air and not necessarily touching the horse . On the occasions that it did touch there was no sign of blood drawn. Yes other disciplines can be overwhelming cruel.
There are better ways of persuading an animal to comply. She should have been training the rider who in turn will train the animal. Personally I dislike the lippizaner training too.
Thank you for your thoughts. I agree that this is only want to one example which is representative of things that go on every day in the horse world. Hopefully we can do better
I do agree that Charlotte is the best of the best rider, and the riding and training of the horse does not always progress on equal levels. It can bring out frustrations when knowledge ends and results are expected from others as you help with their horses - people who do not ride as well as you and are expecting big results. Still, that is no reason for abuse to happen.... one can simply walk away and admit defeat with that combination you are trying to help. I also believe Charlotte has most likely changed her techniques within the past 4 years since - as she has developed more horses to upper levels that seem so happy and proud to work for her (something hardly anyone else can equal) as well as give multiple public clinics helping several would be champions. We don't see what goes on behind the barns of any competitive horse trainer.... we are all speculating and judging by what they put out there in the competitive arena. Your penalty sounds fair and just with hope for Charlotte's future. I don't think her career needs to be over unless she wants it to be..... which she might have already decided it's over. I for one, would miss the brilliant future happy stars that she would be sure to produce for us to admire. Good grief .... people learn and do better!!!!
I agree. Cancellation is cruel and wasteful unless it is truly warranted. Society is too quick to write people off.
The issue isn’t the physical damage to the horse particularly as people think it was hit on the bandages but the long term psychological damage of being beaten when not doing anything wrong. Recreating this as a physical exercise doesn’t factor in the years of fear that horse will go through
Actually, we completely agree. If you listen to either of the two videos I made on this subject my precise point is that the physical damage or pain pales in comparison to the psychological distress inflicted. That was the true abuse. Bottom line, we are on the same page.
You identified the true abuse of mind and emotions. That was far worse than the stings of the whip. It’s hard to heal the emotional harm. I’ve had more than one abused horse come to me. Regaining trust and confidence can take years. The amazing thing to me is how forgiving the horse an be, a capacity we as humans need to learn. We can be so harsh and judgmental towards each other.
Yes, indeed, we do totally agree. Horses can tolerate a lot of physical discomfort but mental and emotional distress can destroy them. Thanks for your comment and thanks for watching.
The thing is, a horse in true connection, can not physically lift its back legs in the way it's praised in competition.
The only way, is to build immense core strength in the horse, so that when it is on the hand, in collection, has the strength to "kick itself in the stomach" sort of.
Because the back legs are supposed to be underneath the horse, it's supposed to be stepping underneath itself, in the trace of the front feet.
Lifting up the front, and shifting the weight from the front to the more powerful back.
This is seen in different degrees, during competitions, where piaffe is the highest collection.
When you are more focused on how high the back legs are stepping, rather than where they are stepping, or how collected the horse is.
You get the circus performances that's regarded today.
It has nothing to do with true collection, nothing to do with a sound working horse, and everything to do with doing what gives the highest score.
Wow. I hope other folks read your comment as you put your finger right on one of the problems with much of modern competitive training. Basically, we are talking about losing the purity of a horses movement. Essentially, the movement of the back legs does not properly correspond with the movement of the front legs. This is very visible in movements such as the extended trot,passage and piaffe If we stopped rewarding horses for doing showy but incorrect movements this would be an important correction in the standard of excellence. Again, thanks for your insight.
Dear Herm, thank you very much for speaking out in such a thoughtful and reflective way and trying to take your viewers with you in exploring your thinking of how to respond to this problem … i might have got this wrong but here is my tuppence worth … i think there are a number of interrelated questions here and in some ways despite this being catastrophic for Charlotte herself I agree it does provide an opportunity to reset what is acceptable for how humans work with horses to achieve the goals of the human … It seems that what is an acceptable way to work with horses to achieve the humans aim is informed by the views of the very small group of horse people who are working at an elite level and then there is the much larger group of onlookers (including me )who do not work at that elite level … I do not know Charlotte but I would be open to the fact that she is not an intentionally cruel and sadistic person but has grown up and operated within a culture and landscape of practise that produces and competes with horses at an elite level… It may be that what she did was not common but not uncommon in that world of producing elite level horses. Aside from the fact it was abusive and really bad training and the horse didn’t appear to have any clue what he was supposed to be doing in response to being whipped …. and aside from the sinister snigger which appeared to condone Charlottes behaviour and certainly signalled to the culture in which Charlotte was operating, I think we have to handle this situation v carefully in order for things to really improve for horses … In my view we need to respond firstly in relation to Charlotte as an individual but also the elite bubble in which she operates in a proportionate way … There is a real danger here that Charlotte will be demonised and treated as though what she did was a one off and not representative of elite level dressage competitors and trainers and let everyone else off the hook if similar practise in not uncommon amongst her peers… .. If what Charlotte did and if other controversial training methods are common in order to quickly produce horses to fit with particular rules and a restrictive finance model then there will be pressure from the elite to want all blame to fall on Charlotte and so resist any requirement that change is required across the board at the elite level … if abusive practices are not uncommon at this level as some folk suggest then this outcome will not help horses… Maybe things need to looked at across the board to ensure harsh training methods are not being encouraged by unrealistic expectations on riders and horses … Finally if what Charlotte did or similar is not uncommon then we should expect similar videos being out there somewhere .. I agree Charlotte should be punished with a ban for a period of tine and then probation but i think the probation period should begin from now onwards so she and others have an opportunity to change .. maybe we need to apply some of a training mindset to this situation and consider how to shape behaviour and practise in Charlotte and elite horse competitors more generally … from what people have said it might be helpful if Charlotte has specific training to improve her skills in horse training… or indeed in an ideal world it would be good if people had greater access to educated and high quality horse training across the board more generally…… sorry this is so long a post …
Thanks for your thoughts. I agree that expecting so much of high-level competition horses creates an environment in which extreme methods are almost in evitable. Whether or not we can educate or punish this problem away is, unfortunately, unclear to me at this point. What is clear is that it is absolutely worth trying. Thanks for your very thoughtful comment and thank you for watching.
I agree there is an inherent culture.
Very well thought out response. I wonder if this was an isolated incident or a pattern? A lengthy probation could answer that. Regarding gifted, athletic riders, some of the are just that and have no ability or patience to train horses or teach people.
Thank you. Your analysis is spot on and very well said. I appreciate your observations.
Well said, my sentiments entirely. No one as far as I can see has considered the Horse/Rider interaction during the process. If I was sitting up there I would probably have the brakes on unconsciously or consciously. I have been in that situation in the past, not with my approval I should add.
Yes. The young rider was put in an almost impossible situation. Consider that she was being taught by someone she had every reason to trust and respect. That makes the bad judgment and abuse even more disturbing.
Charlotte's case is a big and public one in the dressage world and possibly the most impactful "punishment" for her now is that she'll be blacklisted. Even if she can ride again no one should, and very few people will, want her to train their riders/horses. That will hit her in the finances and hopefully cause a long lasting lesson.
It hurts that it was such a huge person in the competitive dressage world but if she was doing it, she needs to be treated this way. Now we have a basis on which other big names who ARE seriously hurting their horses, can be also held accountable.
You are absolutely correct that the reputational and financial consequences of the abuse will have far greater repercussions on Charlotte Dujardin than any penalty the FEI may provide. I appreciate your observations and appreciate that you watch this video. Hope to hear from you again.
Thanks for this very considered opinion. I think your proposal for the penalty maybe well within the range of what the FEI will finaly come up with. I agree that she deserves a 2nd chance. That is a fundmentaly principle of law in a civilized society. Her punishment in terms of lost Olympic success, other international competitions and reputation as well as further financial impact with sponsors withdrawing support, lost revenues for training classes and horse presentations will be substantial as well. There is every chance of her learning from this and do better in the future. She already is a very strong case for everybody in the horseworld to review their own behavior and improve if needed, which for some people may well be the case.
Thanks for your thoughts. I agree that regardless of what the authorities do there will be considerable repercussions careerwise which should be a powerful lesson for Charlotte Dujardin and others who watch this situation develop.
Probation is not within the scope of FEI sanctions but such a good idea for future cases, if not this one. Please mention it to USEF so that, as a member NF of the FEI, they can put it forward to the annual FEI rules review.
A great interpretation of the Charlotte episode. Lets take the focus off her and put it globally. What we all need to address is the abuse in the horse industry as a whole.
How do we?
It starts with whose paying the bills. The owners....trainers generally are not wealthy...not always true...but as a general rule owners/riders foot the bill for the training of horses. As an owner who left a sport because of the abuse of a horse...change has to start with us. We should no longer be okay with a trainer who abuses a horse. And as a rider we have to say no. also the people working with the trainers..etc groom, assisting in getting a horse ready...im sure they see alot. We all need to say enough. For me what is saw in the Charlotte video is mild(although not right) in comparison to what I've seen in the barns of western pleasure,reining,cutting barns.
We as owners shouldn't look the other way. in doing so we are to blame as well.
You are, unfortunately, completely correct in recognizing that there is a whole cycle of abuse with one component feeding the next. Likewise, you have accurately identified the fact that this is a global problem in most horse sports to one degree or another. There are, however, certainly good ethical trainers who use humane methods. What is a shame is seeing those people being bested in competition by others who use inappropriate but at least temporarily and superficially effective means. Perhaps with concerted effort and a real commitment to change that change can happen and the real winners will be the horses.
your assessment is very fair of the whole situation, I would say as a horse trainer 3 to 4 uses of the lunge whip would tell you if you were getting the desired effect even with the most lazy horse,and as horse trainers Sir we know it is the release of pressure
I agree wholeheartedly. While motivation with an aid such as a lunge whip is appropriate it makes no sense to continue when that exercise proves funeral as it did here. I agree with you. Try this alternative but abandon it quickly if it is useless or counterproductive
Edit: proves futile, not funeral! Spellcheck is seldom my friend.
Thai is a very difficult situation! CD is the best rider I’ve ever seen! She changed dressage for the better everyone had to change how they rode to beat her , much softer rider ! I’ve been pleased to see that there have not been any more videos come to light of her teaching , she must teach lots of riders famous or not , whom could have come forward and slated her they haven’t!! So I’m hoping this was a one off , the lady laughing in the background is worse this was her horse!!
I think with the bad press and the media interest with this story must been very damaging for her , but I do hope that her mental health is good and she can learn from this and come back an even better trainer and compete again ! But I’m sure she will want to come out into this world leaving herself open to any kind of criticism again which is sad in my view! I think FEI will hopefully be talking to people she does train and see what they are saying!
In terms of penalty I do think the concept that prevented severe punishment of former President Richard Nixon after bad conduct in office which basically said he had “suffered enough“ might indeed be in order here. Certainly the damage she has sustained and the loss of reputation far exceeds whatever likely penalty may be exacted by the dressage authorities.
@@hermgaileyalifetimewithhorses yes I totally agree with you
Ms. Dujardin gave dressage and all horse sports a black eye. I'm sure she's not the only person who has worked a horse hard. There are a lot of questions here - her frustration level, the horse's history and level of training AND ABILITY, and what the rider was doing while Charlotte was using the whip. How experienced was the rider? After an FEI investigation and evaluation by her peers of her actions, an appropriate penalty can be decided. What she does as a trainer and a rider GOING FORWARD will tell us what kind of effect the penalty had, and if it's possible for her to continue in the sport.
Thanks for your comment. All of the questions you pose are completely relevant to fully assessing the penalty which is appropriate in this case and in simply judging the gravity of the offense. Thank you for your well reasoned position.
I mentioned the 4yrs gap (as the fact of change in a persons attitude/training) & told it was 18mths. So right there is a SM discrepancy. She taught my daughter before going to Carl's and I for that level she was a good coach. I think the punishment you speak of is fair. My only frustration is she was not alone there are those that where complicit in this the woman laughing, the rider (19 is old enough to speak up) and I believe there was a 4th. What is happening to them? The whole situation is just so sad. I hope I misunderstood your comment that it did not hurt being hit with the lunge whip, because mate, it stung me! The force seen on the video would have been felt by the horse & if it didn't then there would have been no reaction at all. And baring in mind that a horse can feel a fly land, those feelings are going to be far more sensitive then most humans.
The fact is that while people are willing to open up to new ideas, they will change view points. Things I did as a child, teenager, young adult & beyond have altered through time. As we learn more we adjust our behaviours. And something you thought was ok 4yrs ago, could well be something you never visit again. A leopard doesn't change it's spots because it is part of it, attitudes, behaviour is changeable when open to do so.
Thank you for your comment. I agree that people can change and this may be a powerful motivator for Charlotte Dujardin. I am also encouraged by the fact that it least to date this is the only such occurrence that has come to light. Anyone can have a bad day and make bad choices. As to my comment about the whip not hurting I do think you may be reading too much into that. My point was that any actual physical harm was negligible. The real abuse here was mental and psychological. Bottom line, I think we pretty much completely agree.
Charlotte Dujardin loves her life with horse. What she did was not done out of malice. I believe it was done our of over confidence and complaisance about her training methods. There was a great measure of glibness in he whipping the lunge at the horse in the manner of flicking a wet towel at someone, which is a form of bullying but is not done with malice. I agree with everything you have said Herm.
Thanks for your comment. I believe we are pretty much on the same page.
I have just seen your comment and i agree with you. Parents expect quick results for their offspring. Charlotte wanted this horse to get his back legs more under so he would carry himself better. The proper way is tempo changes and half halts, I doubt she uses this whip method on her own horses. I look forward to her own explanations and i'm sure it will never happen again.
Herm im sorry to here you say that it was 4 yrs ago and maybe she has changed. The minute she rode into a Olympic arena she knew the rules. She was a professional..shes been a professional for more than a decade by the time of that video..
Certainly a valid point of view. I am not suggesting, however, that she is free of blame. Only that an over correction can be as unfair as no correction at all.
@hermgaileyalifetimewithhorses true about the over correction..I understand that fear. It's up to people like you and tim Anderson and others that invite the public into their barns and training arenas that show that it's not all bad..I am sorry if I have caused some trouble in the comment section on your last video..guess it shows I was ranch raised..lolwas riding a horse before I could walk as they say..it makes me more verbal about this subject.
The video shows that a great rider doesn't make for a great trainer..its two different skill and knowledge. I use to love watching her till that video. I lost all respect..maybe im being to harsh but its where i am..
I can understand your feelings and you may well be right. I do thinkshe deserves a second chance in her career. As to whether or not she earns a second chance in your regard, that is completely up to you and either result is completely understandable.
@hermgaileyalifetimewithhorses her and velegro brought me back into watching dressage..I now question not just her but alot of the others..dressage as I was taught is one of the hardest disaplines to train..it takes the longest to train to that level..and to now to suspect that serious "short cuts" are being taken hurt the sport..
physical harm is fleeting, we heal, we forget the pain, what is MUCH more damaging, FOR ANYONE, and much harder to heal than physical pain is the internal pain, of the mind, heart, and spirit. the issue is not about the physical pain, its about the accepted daily abuses that horses endure and the disrespect and disdain that too many equestrians show to the horses. it is a systemic issue, deeply rooted, and its time for change. humans fear change, they shouldnt, with change comes growth, with growth comes transformation. please consider using your platform not to defend the old, archaic ways, but, to start talking about how to facilitate the major changes that we desperately need in our industry.
I agree with what you were saying. I hope that you understand that it has never been my intention to defend old archaic ways. Indeed, the desire to see things change is why I delved into this controversy in the first place. When the old ways work we should preserve them. Consider classical horsemanship. On the other hand when they’re outdated and inhumane they should be put out to pasture.
@@hermgaileyalifetimewithhorses " when the old ways work we should preserve them"??? That's one of the more terrifying things I've seen or heard in days, before I comment, and a statement like that leaves me with no choice but to do so, are you sure that's what you want to say?
I think your idea is fair.
Thank you for your comment and your vote of confidence.
‘Those who pass judgment are often guiltiest of all ! Not meaning you Herm but people in general I think she has , paid big time missing out on the Olympics and the embarrassment it must have caused her , It was horrible what she did but hope she has learnt from this ,, let’s face it we all make mistakes , time to move on,
I agree that moving on is the right path. However I hope that we are moving on to something better than where we have gotten to presently. I will keep my fingers crossed as I’m sure many of us do.
I totally agree But I ask you what are the consequences does the rider get and the mother filming it they need to be shamed on utbe as well
I agree the others were wrong as well. What should happen to them is a much harder question and one to which I have no ready answer. Thanks for your comment and thank you for watching.
This was a very good assessment of a difficult situation. I think maybe CD herself would agree with you. Obviously it will never happen again. My take would be a hefty fine and probation not a years suspension. The Danish rider Carina Kassøe Kruth who was also suspended from the reserve position on. the olympic team for a video sitting on her horse whipping it got fined 500 pounds and no suspension.
CD is under pressure from rich parents expecting her to get their offspring quickly to stardom.
The horses Charlotte rides in competitions all look like happy athletes to me.
She is known for keeping horses at home for 2 or. 3 years in the middle of their competitive careers and just giving them time to develop into GP horses.
I watched the show jumping from the Olympics and to me it looks from the style of the horses hind legs an awful lot of them. have been rapped. Racing horses are whipped hard all the way up to the finishing line.
There are plenty of videos on You Tube of top riders using rollkur in the warm up, some are old admittedly .
Off topic but people who are screaming abuse conveniently forget they themselves pay every day for horrific. animal abuse and eat them.
Interesting to see your example of the punishment which applied in a similar situation. I agree that simply making Charlotte Dujardin the convenient vessel for all punishment and not following up with enforcement of others conduct would be unfair and counterproductive. Simply put there needs to be a universal reassessment of how animals are handled. That must begin with each individual. If people don’t want to do better they will find ways around even the most vigilant enforcement and those of us who don’t need the enforcement will bear the burden.Hope that doesn’t happen.
That’s it, in my years of working with horses, I learned the best way to get a horse to agree to behaving in the way the human may want, is to make your idea, his/her idea. The important part is is doing it in small enough pieces, that confusion is not on the table. Horses always always seek the answer. In my experience. And I have had experience with square horses being forced into round holes, which eventually creates anger. Or totally shut down. It takes a while with those small questions, to bring them back. And sometimes you can’t. It’s that trust and communication, that goes both ways, that makes the whole being a herd member with a horse, that stirs something deep in me. It holds true with dogs, and even cats. Make your idea thier idea, in thier language, and they will give thier hearts. 💞
Her comment at very start - These are Sh*t at hitting them hard - that says more than actual striking - wraps or no wraps -
Thanks. Couldn’t make out what was on the audio. Interesting.
She should be sent to a few different trainers who use humane training practices for three years, so she learns some better skills. She should also volunteer at a horse rescue for those three years
While I don’t disagree with you I think that though Charlotte Dujardin’s training skills may fall short they are still quite considerable. Some mentoring would make sense but recall she learned from Carl Hester who certainly has a good reputation for humane treatment of his horses. I’m not sure how much better help she can get. Perhaps the answer is for her to look inside and try to improve.
She's With the Best humane trainer you can hope for. Carl Hester .
He woujd not condone that .. EVER ..
@hermgaileyalifetimewithhorses that's where all the answers are found within yourself, but you still need a pathway to get there. If Carl Hester's training didn't get her there, maybe a few different examples can get her there. I volunteer at a horse rescue in Australia and seeing the damage that people do to horses and watching how those horses heal might help Charlotte look within herself. People don't look within themselves often. It's hard to do.
I've had hundreds of horse riding instructors and hundreds of art teachers and thousands of trainers and mentors in my work. Each one gives me lessons and insights into the work and myself.
Perhaps , he was too bridled initially ... had he had a few inches more rein to start , then once in motion collected there would have been no issue
I think you are exactly right.However that common sense approach is unlikely to be embraced by most modern competitive dressage riders who seem petrified to allow a horse enough freedom to even draw a breath.
By the way,Pete, I hope you watch(and comment)on this week’s episode. Based on what you know about my background you may well think I have taken leave of my senses!How’s that for a teaser?
Sorry aber ich muss jetzt echt mal sagen ich finde es gut dass das mal gezeigt wird weil das erklärt auch das für den Erfolg von den sogenannten Siegern wer auch immer das definiert warum oder wie man dazu kommt ist ja sehr fraglich dass immer jemand leiden muss für den Erfolg was diese Menschen suchen ist einfach nur sie sind krank von der Gier Erfolg zu haben und dafür müssen andere leiden jemand der es wirklich kann da sind ist die wahren Sieger. Und zwar auf der sprachebene des Pferdes und nicht auf der sprachebene der Peitsche
Thanks to you and thanks to the Google translation app. I’m glad I could comprehend your comment as my knowledge of German is basically limited to recognizing what language is being spoken, not what is being said! I completely agree that success achieved by unethical methods is no success at all. What is accomplished by sheer coercion is, at best, a fleeting gratification of the ego.
Completely disagree! .i've watched the video many time! The fact is, she was very good at whipping! she knew when and how and where to whip the horse! this a very established whipper! we now know how she scared her horses to death to perform! Like you say, in this video the horse didn't really respond to been abused! but when that horses has been whip trained for many months it will be doing anything she asks!!.. Dujardin is an accomplished abuser , she is an EXPERT with whip abuse.....it's very simple what happens next....in any other walkmof life with animal abuse, she needs to be taken to court, and tried with animal abuse....then her Training License must be taken away..and she must never be allowed to own a horse again.....its very simple...Personally 6 months in jail....then lifetime ban.. That is the LAW in UK with animal abusers... why she isnt on trialis beyond me....the police have all the evidence they need....shemust hand back allher Olympic medals...like lance armstrong, won by cheating
Thank you for sharing your point of view. While we disagree as to the consequences I am certainly impressed by the depth of your convictions. One point that might be of interest to you is the fact that, if I am correct, the statute of limitation’s foranimal abuse in the UK is 3 years.If that is accurate and the abuse did, in fact, occur as long ago as 4 years then the event was outside that time limitation. That might explain the lack of police involvement.
@@hermgaileyalifetimewithhorses Hi thankyou for a reply....i think its common knowledge now it was a lot less than 4 years ago....she is very skilled at horse abuse, so not a 1 off...this is something she has done to horses for a long time! I've had horses and my ex wife did..they received only love....this woman is an abuser...a horse is like a child as you know..they depend on us....she took their trust and hurt them....she should never ever be allowed to own a horse ever again...never ever train one!!!...
It is very hypocritical of people screaming abuse here but at the same time pay for horrific animal abuse and eat them.
Good point. Thank you for your thoughts.