Alarming New Photos Heavy Loads, Code Violations Before Condo Collapse
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- Опубліковано 16 вер 2024
- In this documentary video we show you previously unreleased photos by Fiorella Terenzi, showing condo units she toured in 2020 before the Miami Condo Collapse of the Champlain Towers condominium in Surfside FL. We examine photos she took while shopping for a condo in that building.
These pre-collapse photos shed light on the remodleing done in several condos at Champlain Towers South, and the huge increase in loads from all these renovations, and whether original designers had taken this into account when the building was built.
Keep checking this channel for news on condo collapse.
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The Champlain Towers South condo complex collapse was located at 8777 Collins Ave. in Surfside, FL, which is just north of Miami beach.
One inch thick glass? 1/2" trowels? Is this guy a real engineer? IMHO, he should know better.
Nice try, I tile bathrooms all the time, you don't know how to. Look at other videos from top tilers on youtube, you will see we all use 1/2" trowel on large tiles. It's also something required by the TCNA specs, which us engineers do use, and obviously, ignorant newbies like you don't know anything about. Nothing like uninformed people blowing hot air in order to pump themselves up. Don't be so anxious show everyone here how stupid you are. Google "what size trowel for 12x24 wall tiles" and see for yourself. It tells you to use 1/2" trowels. Idiot Sandwich.
Remind me NOT to hire you!
@@jeffostroff Those aren't tiles. They're slabs that go in with a completely different system. As for the extra weight; there is a static or dead load spec that would not be exceeded by some tile and a tub on a building like that. That's quite ridiculous.
What is an engineer doing tiling? Are you an engineer or just a tile man? I don't think you know what you're talking about. And nice hair...not.
based on what i have watched on jeffs channel id say he knows what he is talking about
I'm an Electrician. Who has a degree in Engineering. And I side with Jeff over the "Weekend Military LARPer Crowd."
ANY weight added to the structure of a building, after it was built, is weight the building was NOT designed for.
And all that stone is a LOT of weight.
Also, if I ever see a Tile-Setter using a 1/4" trowel on 12 X 24 Tiles, I would tell the Super what is going on.
And if the Super didn't care, I'd tell him to find a New Electrical Sub, because "There is NO WAY IN HELL I will allow MY Name to be attached to that building, in any way, shape, or form. I shall now take my tools and materials, have a Nice Day." It's in quotes, because it has been said.
I doubt that the designer thought that people would add all those heavy items. The main reason being that they were not available in the 70s. I'm sure that they accounted for some weight increases, but never thought that people would add 100s of tons of granite.
I bet it wasn't even a thought in their minds. Now as an engineer, you have to think during the design process, "how can they break my design?"
@@jeffostroff True, but was that the thought process in 1970? You and I have the benefit of 50 years of experiencing people's idiocy. As I said about the NEC, the codes may seem picky but they are written in blood. Same with the current building codes.
Great presentation BTW.
@@jeffostroff and based on some of the analyses I’ve seen like on the videos from Josh Porter, the building was under reinforced and was lacking in beams and columns to start in 1980.
@@neilaxelrod5872 Yes siree...not enough columns were large enough, they used smaller dimensioned columns in the collapsed locations and no "perches" (for lack of the real term) to spread out weight from the floors supported by the columns which increased punching shear. That was a big issue and too many smaller columns were used.
@@stevenbass732 , the architects and engineers who built all the excellent 1920s and 1930s vintage skyscrapers of New York, Chicago, and other older cities, seemed to have thought these things out. I've always lived, by choice, in buildings built between 1918 and 1935, and am struck by not only their beauty, but by the sheer quality and strength of these places. I've never heard of a 20s-vintage 'scraper having anything like the structural issues that I'm reading of in buildings built since 1960. What's even more unsettling is that there are even more unsound buildings built in the past 30 years than in the previous 50. Since Surfside, I've been doing a lot of searching, and it appears the problem of corrupt building practices is by no means confined to the U.S. Two huge, newer towers in Sydney AU had to be evacuated in 2018. A 25-story rental tower built in Seattle in the early 2000's was found unstable and evacuated in 2009, and dismantled in 2011 because remediation would have cost more than demolition and building something new. A 49 story 440 unit condo built here in Chicago in the 70s has concrete contamination through several floors and tiers, and its 8 level garage was condemned and closed by the city. A beautiful 7- building 700 unit complex in CA, the Marina City Club in Marina Del Rey, bult in the 70s, has exactly the same issues to the same degree as the doomed Surfside building, yet it is somehow still deemed safe, just as Champlain South was in 2018.
Yea, typical granite is 4 to 5 pounds per square foot. This is double thickness so 8-10 lbs. per sq.ft. That kitchen alone had a ton of granite it when you account for the walls and the waterfall edge on the countertop, the mortar. Then the bathroom travertine floor to ceiling, the shower bench, stone sinks. The patios covered in 12X12 tiles, each tile weighs 5 pounds plus the mortar and grout. About 8 pounds per square foot. Count the patio tiles @8:53 and multiply by 8 lbs. per sq.ft. They were adding about 2,000 lbs. to these patios. Between the stone and tile inside and the tile outside they were adding 2.5 TONS! to each unit that was not accounted for in the original design. Multiply 2.5 tons by the 136 units in Champlain Towers South and you have 340 tons or 700,000 pounds beyond what was accounted for. That's almost three quarters of a million pounds. That's equivalent to parking 4 Space Shuttles on the roof of that building.
This was the comment I was here for! Statistics. Thanks 😊
This is what happens when Real Estate is owned as an investment rather than just a place to live. People go bonkers on top of the line EVERYTHING to get the greatest return.
I was thinking about the added weight of kitchen & bath remodels, being a kitchen & bath designer in south Florida, so absolutely I think you’re onto something there. I also think you brought up an excellent point, right from the beginning, about those palm trees added later & then removed. My first thought was where did they think the roots were going to go, not to mention the added weight? My dad was a plumber so I always remember hearing about the disasters that water can cause, so I absolutely loved your line, “If you don’t tell water where to go, it will make up its own mind“ So true. Thank you so much for these videos. Very interesting!
Agree. I have this rental situation (family, never own/rent from/with family) where I had to put up a fit about how the investment was being ruined when they let water drip in the walls.
I put up a loud fit to get the roof dealt with.
Now they're letting another building on the same property have the same issues. I'll be ok with court if need be.
This was amazing. The summary of condo decor 1970s vs 2020 was a laser beam of truth. Flocked wall paper, formica counter tops and shag carpet vs inch-thick glass dividers, granite counter tops and ceramic tile. These poor people literally built their own tomb.
It might have survived had it not been for poor engineering and execution on the contractor's part
rich poor people
Other videos have said building was made to near 100% of loaded ratings in 70s/80s ,,, all the heavy things added over time was apparently just overload
@@jeffostroff That and many others were built by Mafia construction companies using the "building industry" to launder the vast amounts of cocaine money. Inspectors were "paid off", nothing was "built within proper code" ( That vacillated at the time depending upon which politician was being paid off )…
@@johnnywadd3020 I did not paid too much attention to this case, but I remember something about immigrants being the tenants. Did I got it wrong?
I think the Building Integrity channel calculated that this building was barely built strong enough to handle the original load.. like 99 percent of it's capacity. So this video is spot on because it wouldn't take much to push it over the fence.
YEs he mentioned that back in August
That doesn't include the factors of safety added in.
I don't think it was quite that high, but it was pretty far up there even BEFORE the penthouse was added. I wanna say it was 75% or above, then you add, let's say 1 ton per unit on average, so another 135 tons of weight, some of it in areas it shouldn't have been (the balconies) and it's no water it collapsed.
Your explanation of the weight of bathroom fixtures and fittings changing over time is so true. I just helped my friend clear out his late father's house. My friend was actually born there over 60 years ago, and it didn't look like there had been much work done since! A ghastly array of features supports what you described: half-tiled above the bath with pink tiles, and just a few more above the sink, a carpetted bathroom, in the bedrooms fitted formica chipboard furniture, linoleum on the kitchen floor, and more formica units in the kitchen; faux wood panelling on a whole wall of the sitting room. This was in a very nice part of the town too, it was just what was done back in the day.
I just can't get enough of this story. I keep coming back to see what new information has been posted about it. Keep it up, Jeff!
Me too. It irritates me that this isn't a bigger story. I think it should be.
Unbelievable… then imagine how many other buildings have had dozens of units remodeled like this one…
You can bet there's problems like this in other condos that's why they just changed the law last week in Florida where now if you were within 3 miles of the ocean you have to do 25 year recertification instead of 40 year. And you were not allowed to vote not to fund the reserve accounts anymore. What we did in the past is some of our condos and I've owned a few like this, they will vote to not fund the reserve account because it would drive up everybody's cost of monthly maintenance by three or $400. So what we did was if there was a roof there would be an assessment of about $5000 per unit at that time, at which we would all pay monthly towards this loan. It really all boils down to pay me now or pay me later so all you're really doing by not funding the reserves is pushing it off a few more years but eventually it's going to happen and you have to pay up.
@@jeffostroff
To overcome the load safty factor of 2 you need 320 PSF for the 160 PSF desined slabs.
Wich translate in a live load of 220 PSF or one human per square foot - in the hole building.
Or 1 Human per 10 square foot so they can breath and under them over 1 foot (15'') thick tiles.
@@jeffostroff I know lots of old folks who like this so they get to keep the interest all the way up to the assessment, and if they move before the assessment it’s the new owner’s problem.
I’m of the mind that these shenanigans shouldn’t be permitted any longer with people living paycheck to paycheck. I’m in Ohio in a townhouse condo-no hurricanes, no seismic activity-and I would rather see basic engineering studies required about every 5 years to determine reserve requirements and fully funded reserves become the law everywhere. It would ensure safety and community financial stability without surprise assessments.
@@LeeHawkinsPhoto Actually many condo associations require that any open assessments are closed and paid in full by time the property sells at closing it's usually taken care of at that time
@@jeffostroff right, I’m talking about when they sell 2-3 years before the roof gets replaced when it only happens every 20 years. 😞
when I used to build telecom infrastructure (fiber), in every job, the first thing we did was assess the point, linear, and total floor and ceiling load we could use. As the equipment got denser per square meter, buildings built in the past simply could not accept some of this equipment...at all. Structure was being added to those buildings constantly to keep them usable pushing costs through the roof. I never hear discussions like that when remodeling a home or condo....which I find both stupid and criminal.
Interesting to hear this
Ok but, the weight of a 25T Clim or 24x36 batteries is significantly different than tiles on concrete floors. The failure was structural and not from how people decorate . Otherwise there would be a lot more incident like this one.
Also work in telecom specializing in power plants; batteries, generators, and distribution. First call out is to a structural engineering firm. Many times we’ve had to have structural work done to support the equipment and battery loads. Including cell sites on top, or in some cases inside upper floors of condo buildings. The answer is always in the numbers. In our own facilities the floor loading limit Lbs/ sq ft is posted on each floor. Wondering where some of those suites were at for floor loading.
Jeff,
As in any engineering fail, there are usually several factors that come into play that lead to a disaster. However, there are key factors and contributing factors. I agree that the addition of the massive weight of new tiles and glass you described here was likely an important contributing factor for the collapse. I believe that the key factor that caused this disaster was the decision by the builders to change from the 24 X 24-inch columns to the 16 X 16-inch columns. The smaller columns worked fine in 1980, and saved money, but the excessive weight based modern renovations resulted in the residents unknowingly living in a “House of Cards”; to quote from the Miami Herald.
Some columns were 16x12, and depending on the direction of pulling forces, yo only have a 12" wide column
Also I feel the geology of the location worked against the building also. The Champlain Towers condominium is in Surfside FL built on sandy marshy soil. Building an underground parking structure in Florida land of sink holes is questionable. Using smaller columns gave the building no fault tolerance or ability to absorb additional loads. The building was NOT future proofed. I live in the northeast a good distance from any water. My condo is in building anchored to a huge underground boulder so dense they could not build true underground parking. We were never told we could not add granite kitchen bath upgrades.
That additional load theory is muddying the waters a bit. This kind of renovation is done all the time in these types condos yet they never fall down. I wouldn't even consider this a "contributing factor."
The main factors were flawed design and poor maintenance of the pool deck. There was also a major accident in the construction phase of the Champlain towers when a crane fell over and smashed into the columns that would later fail 40 years later.
Why hasn't this channel (or anyone really) addressed this angle of the story. What you are looking at here is probably the smoking gun of why this building fell down.
ua-cam.com/video/GJ9Jt1zPDMA/v-deo.html
Maybe people just don't know about it but it has been hush hush for almost a year now.
I'd agree with that for sure, but still sorta think it was doomed anyways from subsidence and salt water issues. I do wonder how many tons of crap people packed in there remodeling though.
Overwhelmingly engineers are an extremely cautious breed in that they take structural safety very seriously. Most engineers take it as a matter of pride that what they certify as sound won't easily fall. Most great engineers design structures so three separate independent points of failure must occur to bring their structures down. Most great engineers build an abundance of redundancy and fault tolerance into whatever they certify. Unfortunately normal checks and balances between developer, zoning inspector, contractor and engineer did not happen here. Build quality suffered because developers exploited a debased bottom line mentality.
I feel a bit vindicated. I brought up the question of loads increasing as linoleum, formica, wallpaper and carpet were replaced with ceramic, granite, and glass... and was told by numerous people that I was nuts! I truly believe that all the added weight combined with the poor disrepair in a damaged building that wasn't all that strong to begin with... led to this disaster. It seems to me like all those elements combined did it... like a plane crash. Most plane crashes wouldn't happen if you remove one (of several) problem.
Yes lots of contributing stressors
True. A few years ago I was on a flight on a smallish jet run by a discount airline, and the flight attendant asked for a volunteer to move to first class to balance the load on the plane.
Well, I agree weight was a contributing factor. That would add to the weight of all the water in the building.
I questioned the HOA of a similar situation of structural integrity with regards to code violations, and"weight loads" at my Townhouse Complex in 1999 when several owners added "lofts" above the dining room which had a 30 foot vaulted ceiling. Construction did NOT include lofts in the original plans. Eventually, all aftermarket loft construction was inspected and permits were required. Although the Townhouses were only two stories, the lofts connected to the "common wall" of adjoining units, supported by floor joists running perpendicular thru adjoining units, and building codes required additional electrical outlets and lighting that required entrance into "common area" electrical and/or plumbing facilities
A lot of people thought ELON MUSK was nuts too for his forward, thoughtful ideas. Unfortunately the world is populated by IDIOTS who think they know everything yet violate the rules of physics. Think of those who built homes on the cliffs overlooking the Pacific ocean in California for example. Hubris is rampant.
As an industrial plumber in England and having worked on many medium to large projects, i can honestly say that i ive never seen a concrete slab construction that carries on from external to internal in one solid slab. The type of building with a deck and underground parking would have a ring beam to support the building on its columns and another completely independant beam and slab abbuting the building with an expansion joint , making both completely independant, so if the external slab had problems it could be completely removed or repaired without affecting the main structure, the external slab and internal slab are doing different jobs in different conditions.
Yes I had mentioned in one of our other videos and pointed out that some type of isolation cimora construction seem to keep the two systems independent would likely have prevented the building from collapsing. This could have just been a simple pool that cave in that wouldn't have made the news
Yeah I noticed in docs people reviewed online that isolation joints were non existent as were perimeter beams. If anything could be left out, it was left out in this building. Thank god all a GC, developer and owner have to do to escape all liability for their actions is declare bankruptcy (usually when deaths are involved statue of limitations are tossed out the window). Otherwise someone may have had to pay for this crime.
This, exactly. For a tiny fraction of a cost increase, the pool deck could have collapsed, and the building survived.
As for this silly video suggesting the building collapsed because of granite tiles, it's absurd.
@@ByronScottJones He literally never said that. He just said it could be a contributing factor. Go watch his other videos about this. He breaks down exactly why the building fell, and it wasn't the bathroom tile.
@@shannonrickard8605 it WASN'T a contributing factor. At least two of the main central columns were pulled out from the front center of the building when the pool deck collapsed. That's the cause.
I live in a penthouse in a nine story concrete condo building in downtown Tacoma, Washington. Our balconies/decks are all considered common areas that we don’t own but have access to for private use. We are required to keep them clean. Next year our building is going to have all the decks resealed with waterproof paint and nonskid surfacing. This will be the third coat on the balconies since the building was built in 2008. So far there have not been any cracking or leaks on the concrete balconies. There is no way in hell our HOA would allow people to tile their own balconies. I can’t even wrap my head around that! We just excavated a planter bed on our south plaza above our lower garage that had failed waterproofing. We had the whole bed re-waterproofed and had the bed redone with a dry scape (dense foam/decorative gravel/and large boulders) that drains very well and won’t cause any root damage to the waterproofing. Proud that our HOA is very strict on maintaining our beautiful building and our investments. Watching all your videos about the condo in South Florida makes me feel very blessed that I bought into this building. After watching your videos I now know how to spot the sheer walls and I look closer at all the massive columns we have. Our building is built like Fort Knox with very substantial engineering. Probably because of the earthquakes we receive here in the Pacific Northwest. If you are curious this is our building. Keep up the informative videos! m.ua-cam.com/video/MnaS_pNr0cM/v-deo.html
That is a gorgeous modern building, love the marina views too
@@jeffostroff I'm in roughly the same part of the country, and when we had the siding done last year, the contractor that the HOA used to redo the balconies was able to put tile looking impressions in the concrete that was being used. The original balconies were made of concrete for the top with wooden supports and from the looks of it, the balconies are lighter now than they were as they have thicker plywood under the concrete than before, but the floor itself is the same height, this leads me to suspect that they were able to shave a bunch of weight with improved materials that weren't available in the '70s when the building was built.
The earthquake risk in the area combined with the buildings being relatively short is probably a large part of why they went with wood rather than steel or concrete for the rest of the building.
You could be living on the houseboat ferry instead 😂. But maybe you have a view of it from your building.
I don't get the condo thing. You only legally own air. What good is that?
Plus, nobody watches workers, which you always have to do. They'll do stuff behind you back that even a layperson idiot can't see isn't kosher. If it's YOUR house, you get to decide how things are done (complete overkill at my house. Better to do it once than cheaply several times)
I said this from the very beginning; when the building was built, the finishes were nothing like what was installed in the last few years. Stone countertops weigh a lot more than Formica, ceramic tile and carpeting weigh a lot less than marble or stone floors. Fiorella is a smart woman. She realized that the weight of the renovations she saw was dangerous. Can't believe that the condominium boards allowed these renovations without consulting a structural engineer!
Great job, Jeff! I've seen real estate photos of a unit that was never remodeled (it said 1981, i.e. never). It might have been unit 211. It might have been the North tower, but they were sister buildings. The kitchen had linoleum, 4" square tiled countertop with 2 foot backsplash and cheap stainless steel sink. Bathroom had looked like fiberglass tub, sliding shower doors and small oval sink and linoleum floors. I think the rest was carpet. A lot of those units were originally 1 bd but a lot of people divided the huge living room to make 2nd bdrm. (more weight)😶
Yes, much lighter condos in the late 1970s
I noticed VERY open concept condos in some Real Estate ads. Adding stone surfaces, solid tubs, etc all add to stress.
@@sunnygirl87 Yes, and they look hard and sharp and uninviting. Give me my 1939 wood house 30" off the ground!
@@lisakoumrian5301 OMG! I live in a 1940 cottage, 1200sqft! LOVE IT!
890 square feet here,!
This reminds me to be cautious when choosing vacation spots as well. I don't want to stay in places where no one monitors weight capacity inside high-rise units. Really appreciate this video.
Not an issue unless it’s a very large building like this one.
Definitely a combination of things coming together - horrific tragedy. Thanks so much for keeping us updated on this.
Glad to help Karen!
Good observations Jeff. The typical contractor grade furnishings in the late 1970's were vinyl flooring in the kitchen and bath, thin carpeting, and sheet metal sinks and bathtubs, with particleboard/formica cabinets. Over the years, this condo appears to have been given several face-lifts to up the status to a luxury environment. With all that bathroom reworking, I would imagine jack hammering would be required to reroute the plumbing. Dead-load increases were probably never considered, as the average person assumes concrete is indestructible. That combined with the marginal structure design, improper maintenance, drainage issues, and the salt air, the eventual collapse was only a matter of time.
Plus, they added huge amounts of marble to the lobby
What a well-written, insightful comment!
@@jeffostroff True, although the marble lobby survived unscathed, likely due to the thicker columns below in the garage.
@@jeffostroff
_Plus, they added huge amounts of marble to the lobby._
Because somebody has to set the example?
In the 70's it was, "See How Cheap You Could Make It Look Good" ..... if that makes sense....
The Japanese hadn't started flooding the car market yet with quality made vehicles at reasonable prices yet, so everything on the US Market was made cheap...and meant to stay that way.
This has been one of my most major concerns since the day after the collapse and I spied so many broken materials from various condos that were not original material that one would have expected to find in a 40 year old building or compatible replacement materials that would have stayed under the mean for condo built ins that any condo management in their right mind has rules about and definitely has weight limits for additional structure, material and appliances add by a contractor or as a DIY project. I had commented about this after going back through many years of real estate ads with photos of condos in that building for sale or lease and there seemed a point where the usual lighter weight acrylics and compound materials used to mimic neural stone etc suddenly shifted to the use in renovations of natural products from stones to concrete instead. As I said back in that post this happened about a time when the building had flipped in the marketplace to being seen as 'old' compared to new structures going up built with eight tolerances to support granite counter tops, heavy tiling and free standing cement tubs with separate showers also using natural tiles and separate plumbing systems, of course adding more weight. Then I pointed out that many of the condos has upgraded from carpet to heavy stone flooring and tiling through out, instead of the much lighter weight carpet or linoleum. And many of the patios, some of them on 3 sides of a condo, which seemed to only be structurally attached by being tied into the side of the building move from light weight decorative patio flooring to heavy weight tiling. At the time I commented that I expected that a lot of this work was owner DIY work in a desperate attempt to make the condo sell in some neighborhood of what much newer buildings were going for, and a great deal of it was unpermitted work and neither the city engineers or the building owner had any idea of what weights were added to and structurally stressing their building, There were some permitted renovations done over the years from the lobby to common rooms and a few condos. At the time these took place either weight being added was not in the building code or no one thought it mattered. Just the newly heavily tiled patios/decks had to be exerting a new lateral stress that building had no ability to handle or shift and may be why when the collapse occurred the patios to appear to peel off the building just ahead of the main collapse.
Aside from going from things like lighter weight carpet, linoleum, plastic based tiles, and Formica, as well as lighter weight and smaller footprinted tub/shower cabinets to much heavier materials not only replacing the older materials but used perhaps over judiciously on the vertical as well as covering built ins, what about the changed from those apartment style appliances such as a fairly lightweight refrigerator freezer to exceptionally heavy duty size by sides that weigh well more then twice what they replaced, as well as ovens and ranges of greater weight, and heavy duty dishwashers. And wen the building was built, obviously it was assumed that shared laundry rooms would be used, as was common place in the 70-80's but in so many of the ads I saw there were, as well as communal laundry still existing, almost every unit listed or showed images of its own either stacked or side by side laundry appliances. Adding a washer, which is heavy to start with and then using it where it periodically adds more weight when filled with water, and adds to stress as it spins, most likely in units that were never mean to have that activity going on, is just additional weight and periodic stress added. In several patio shots one can also see, besides fully tiled balconies, the addition of heavy outdoor cooking appliances - some of which can weight 600-1000 pounds when the are sporting smokers and wood burning elements. When I saw this I had to really step back and wonder if that building might have actually been built better than we thought or if they were just lucky to not have had a rash of balcony collapses. Not only did I see many bathrooms that went from a tub/shower combo to separate tubs and showers, from one lightweight sink to two heavy ceramic sinks and more counters and cabinetry, and also from one lighter weight apartment style toilet to a much heavier toilet but also additions of bidets, at least doubling the weight of the original toilet as well as adding the extra plumbing and drain
I know our city, country and state building departments, ever since the danger of the Cascadia fault came to be known to us and there was a rash of demolition of buildings that could not be retrofitted to be made safe, a great amount of retrofitting that had to be done (which actually benefited some older structures that could then actually support more weight) the building codes and inspectors we fanatical about adding max weight allowances, knowing to the pound what would be removed in a remodel and what would be added in, and more frequent inspections caught up with DIY renovators that had no idea what structural stresses they were adding to a building by upgrading an bath or kitchen or flooring. In the early days of the retrofitting and building earthquake resistant buildings, where everyone was expecting the big one any day, it was not unusual to see a building evacuated with the risk of being condemned unless someone removed that DIY cement freestanding bath or a hot tub they added to their patio. This started happening often enough and other residence in multi owner buildings became aware that they were liable to find themselves in a hotel for a week, that so much as a new paint job got reported to inspectors. Its also made very clear when one buys a until what their max weight allowance is for that unit and at what weight they are currently judged at. Its now boiled down in many complexes that any renovations have to be done by the building owners not the individual unit owner. I suppose that in many areas of the country where building are not expected to be able to withstand a big jolt, shaking or movement of the land they are built on, that unit weight is not taken into consideration in the same way it has been in more seismic areas and perhaps in Florida they never stopped to think as desired materials changed over time that what was going into older building units by one owner or the next was added stresses to that structure it was not ever imagined it would have to hold up to, even if over all building maintenance was excellent. If this is the case, then the risk of issues with older buildings in that area, without good oversight as to what weights have been added, could actually cause a repeat eventually of Surfside.
I think that an additional 200-400 words would wrap this up quite nicely.
Besides Champlain North, how many other buildings built in the 80’s and later updated with heavy finishes do you think need structural evaluation?
It was actually designed in the 70s and opened 1981 so just a bit earlier than that.
Yes, quite a few I'm sure
@@jeffostroff When you consider all that added tonnage of all those fancy materials and multiply it by 13 floors…. The mind boggles. I wonder if any older buildings restrict upgrading finishes based on weight. It’s like how apartments forbid waterbeds, but even more weight than that.
You'd have to know what the static load the floor was designed for was. Even in a house, the floor isn't designed to just barely take the weight of current finishes. And then on top of it there's usually a safety factor added on top. The real issue seems to be the lack of rebar tying the columns to the floor plates, and also water intrusion into the pool deck, through the concrete deck, and into the parking garage. There was another good video released a week or so ago showing how one of the planter boxes on the pool deck had developed severe cracks just a week or 2 before the building collapsed, indicating the deck plate was already starting to punch through one of the columns. There are also pictures of that column from earlier showing corrosion and calcium deposits on that column and a puddle of water sitting around it, indicating the concrete plate had failed there already and was letting water through. Specifically this is column 76
@@gorak9000 The building code requires 40 psf design load for residential occupancy. If there was for example a 1000 square foot unit, they could put a total of 40,000 pounds of "stuff" in the unit and still be OK.
All of the added weight was indeed a "stressor" that contributed to the collapse of the building. The day after the collapse I considered that the weight of the planter boxes on the pool deck were a major factor in the collapse.
Yes all those years when the added planters carried the load of 20 foot tall palm trees
The weight added would have been small compared to the building itself. The problem was degradation of the structure itself, not renovations.
@@Tugela60 The weight of the thick concrete tiles plus the weight of the heavy waterlogged soil of the planter boxes definitely contributed to the demise of the building, right along with terribly corroded rebar, columns that were too narrow in both directions, and the complete lack of drop panels or mushroom caps at the top of the columns.
All of those factors led to "punch through" of the columns through the pool deck slab, which was connected to the rest of the building, and pulled the nearest columns of the building itself laterally, precipitating the collapse of half the building.
If none of the paver stones and planter boxes had ever been there, the columns still would have punched through, because of massive corrosion. But it would have taken another 8 to 16 years.
I worked in a concrete testing lab, and there is a huge difference in strength depending on the type of cement, aggregate (large and small), additives, mix ratios, etc. there should be samples taken and tested constantly throughout the project. If the contractor knows this is not happening the temptation to cheap out on the concrete is huge.
Yes, can't wait to see what NIST tested
_cough_ Mafia Mix! _cough-cough_ ;')
I can appreciate the importance of constant sampling and testing - each new batch needs to be mixed thoroughly or it won't properly represent the most careful calculations.
Any job of that level has concrete testing on every pour. Typically there are independent inspectors that verify the mix formula and the testing results.
@@mjpicard00 SHOULD have test samples taken every pour. Is there proof this actually happened? Fake reports? What lab did the testing?
7:13 that top unit's patio has a huge chunk of the ceiling above it just missing, 13:37 to the left of the rust line is the section they photographed for the lawsuit showing the chunks missing and you can see the concrete is spalling off in almost the exact same shape as the failure shown in the lawsuit photos.
Jeff, you are correct about the additional static load contributing to the collapse. As a carpenter I've seen many old homes needing reinforcement to hold up heavy stone countertops installed during remodeling
Reminds of people “remodeling” campers, 5th wheels etc, they use real wood products, even stone tile and all I can think of is how the gas mileage drops with each upgrade. I can see where a 1970s building would suffer from a lot of added weight stress.
Yes that added weeds really got to drag down the gas mileage good point
They do backsplashes now that are "Spanish tile" made of vinyl. Can't tell until you touch it.
What really gets me is when you show the picture of Maria’s 611 apartment. If you look directly next to it shows the exit sign for the collapsed staircases. If she had just looked right and saw that and went that way she wouldn’t have made it. So crazy.
Yes, what happens a lot in fires and emergency evacuations, people tend to try to leave the way they came in or the way they know.
Excellent video Jeff. I’m a tile marble installer up in palm beach county and I’ve often wondered about the loads these condos can bare……installing travertine marble floors in a mud set is a hell of a lot of weight. And add bathrooms and granite kitchens-to the equation as this video shows scares the hell out of me. I’ve never really questioned it. Just do as I’m told
Yes, I wondered also, but luckily I was in 3 story buildings mostly.
I am very surprised that none of those extremely heavy tiled balconies didn't collapse before the building did. I wish one did though. It would have saved hundreds of lives, as an investigation would have started then.
@@jadedelarge8929 "heavily tiled" ? what does that mean? do you realize that the worst case weight of tile plus grout plus mortar setting bed is only about 1/4 of the design load for the balconies? One of those balconies that Jeff showed could carry the weight of the tile plus about 30 adults and still be within its building code design load.
@@billj5645
Why would they even build balconies, unless under good conditions anyway, they were rated to carry the weight of somebody's party or visitors?
Cumulative weight might be a different issue.
maybe you should start questioning a little more
Thanks for giving credit to Fiorella Terenzi for what might be an remodeling industry changing observation on the increasing weigh in multi-unit properties. Hopefully that issue will be addressed before the dream 1980s mall "Marble Package" monument look kills more people.
You can do marble or concrete now that you can't even tell the difference at a glance. You see these in RVs. "Spanish tile," is basically vinyl sheet. It looks great, weighs nothing.
I don't know what happens in a fire. I'm guessing "extremely toxic."
At the RV show, they did this everywhere. You can't tell until you touch it.
Out in NY, we went to look at a condo w a great bay view. The apt we went into had a clear leak in one of the bedrooms and looked very fragile. The realtor tried to cover the leakage up and state it was paint. We got a great tour of the premise but that eater leak bothered me so much, not tp mention a lot of reno was needed as is bc the seller was an elderly lady who lived there for more than a few decades idr rn. Thnx for these video series to breakdown the signs of structural integrity being jeopardized....a lot of carelessness and nonchalance about small issues that get big def contributes to things like an entire tower collapsing like this one. Just looking at your videos bc it came up.
Idk why thr HOA never caught onto these things or if the beauracracy just swallowed up all thr concerns like any beauracracy does.
Always infighing at HOA meetings, no one wants to spend money
You'd have a good case on the agent if you bought it and it was very expensive to fix.
She knows better than to give opinions on anything she isn't licensed to. Contracting opinions, for example.
You'd get 5 years to sue, btw.
Yes, easily 2 tons of static load in each of those bathrooms, and as well all those tiled enclosures, which typically are filled with either rubble and cement, or with actual poured concrete to make them solid sounding. Easily another ton there alone, and the kitchens at least 2 tons extra in mass. Tile typically, for smaller tiles, comes as 1 square metre, or roughly 12 square feet, 12 tiles if they are a foot on a side, and come in for some of them at around 100lb per pack. Add in needing 50lb of grout to put them down per pack as well, and easily you get to 2 tons plus.
Then you get the plumber needing to route pipes for drains and supply, and of course you cannot put them into the unit below, so they cut a channel through the concrete, going through all the reinforcing to get to the stack pipes. Cut and jackhammer the slot, bare steel left there without any form of treatment, and cracks all the way through the concrete. Plus stack pipes in the concrete, being from the 1970's I would say galvanised steel for the ones used to drain the roofs and balconies, and with threaded ends put together with couplers. Any pipe thread sealer would have rotted away by now, and the insides of the pipes as well, all that salt and rain scouring off the zinc, and the exposed threads rusting off the couplings, allowing water to sit in the concrete at each floor, making those columns weaker with time. Likely plenty of plumbing leaks, definitely going through floors. Would be interesting to see insurance claims for water damage over the years, seeing just how far each individual leak spread amongst units through the cracks in the floors.
By me there have been some who enclosed balconies, so part was filling the floor, we insisted on engineering consult, and specified low mass fills as well, not concrete, so the majority have gone for Pratletperl, as it is a very light additive, and makes for a thick light screed to cover the thickness for the fill. Same for remodels, especially if you were doing structural changes to any walls, load bearing or not.
I’ve seen pipe threat sealant over 80yrs old still doing it’s job. So, your take on that is faulty.
OK so 2 tons. The design load for a room that size is at least 5,000#. So in what country is 2 tons greater than 5,000#.
Why in the world would plumbing runs be allowed to be moved, unless you are on a slab on the bottom floor or you own your own basement or crawl space? I wouldn't want a neighbor building crap in my ceiling. You can run supply through walls or wherever, because that is under pressure. But drains are by gravity, so they are much trickier.
I kind of like the idea of an enclosed balcony. Where else are you going to put your back lawn extra-space storage shed when you live in a highrise condo?
@@yosefmacgruber1920 Most enclosed balconies to get out of rain, the original designs were, till the later erection of buildings, actually sea facing, and thus got the weather. Wind on the hot summer days, but all gone now to get that extra small room.
Plumbing moved because the originals were baths and toilets, location now fixed, and later on people wanted showers and such, so the plumbing had to be lower to drain. Easy enough in a duct to tap into the standpipe, but getting the fall to it in the floor is harder.
@@SeanBZA
They can't elevate their shower a bit, so as to have room for the drain connection?
Most of us working class people, can't even afford to move our plumbing, we leave it where it always was. And we often have basements and crawl spaces in which the plumbing could be moved.
Generally our homes are already too small, to be "subtracting" space to add another bathroom, so most people never add any bathrooms.
Most all of the older beach condos have tile balcony.
One day I thought a gun went off when our tile popped (exploded) as water got past the grout and with the sun boiled the water and blew out the tile.
And we're in the middle of a six year balcony restoration.
So true concern.
Time to scrape it all off, reseal, and paint
Own or renting?
Great video. What you forgot to mention though, is that many renovations are just slapped on top of existing finishes - floors, walls, etc. I bet many of those apartments still had the original flooring underneath the kitchen and bathroom floors!
Yes sometimes people do tire over time or, but I suspect that with the quality of the work that was done here by very high and people that they likely demoed everything and then rebuild from scratch
I live at the cricket club NorthMiami & every balcony on all 24 floors has the owners own choice of tile on them. When I moved to Champlain tower north in 2016 for concrete restoration the board had all owners remove their tile permanently & they all became uniform with just sealant.
I think the main issue was the pool deck slab/garage. When the pool deck collapsed down into the garage it must have weakened its support by ripping away support columns eventually leading to its demise. So many buildings down here are built similarly using their garages&pool decks as a means of support for the building.
YEs that is the safest way to do it John, glad they had common sense even in 2015
So, they knew something then...hmm .
Interesting. That is a massive amount of weight in each condo. I agree. I don't think these old condos were made to sustain tons of extra weight.
Josh at Building Integrity said last ear he did calcs on the pool deck and said it was near 100% max load as designed, no room for more weight
@@jeffostroff So basically, a lack of redundancy is what brought this down. There was no design leeway for completely foreseeable things like extra weight, column failure, or structural degradation.
@@simonbone Add in the safety margin was already removed by the original construction cutting cost down, and then poor concrete work, and all the margin was long gone. Only thing holding it up was the concrete slowly curing and getting to strength, plus the rebar manufacturers being conservative with the strength ratings on the product, even with better steel, that was more homogenous and tougher, than the original design rules for reinforcing expected when they got set in law.
You do not need a ton of marble, just because your neighbors can afford that. Does everybody have to be on the same trend at the same time? I can have my ton of books, as long as everybody else doesn't suddenly take on the trend of being avid readers?
@@yosefmacgruber1920 Keeping up the appearances of being well off is more important in their minds.... They buy new cars because the new model has one extra feature (that they never use) than the current one, or just because it is the new model. Buy clothes and wear once, then throw away, and live a life of consumerism over all else.
I have to be honest since I know nothing about construction - I'd never thought about the weight of materials. I can totally see how this would add up if multiple units kept adding more and more weight. Thanks for a new insight.
I used to help my uncle set up tile through Craigslist. People underestimate how heavy that stuff is. I legit once though of how much pressure these new buildings were being placed through when they had tile added seeing that a small box of tile was heavy. Now imagine about 50 of those boxes per floor not including appliances and granite the works. We only did one story suburban houses and it was always a huge drag unloading the tile boxes.
yes it all adds up
I don't know why they don't just use vinyl. You literally can't tell the difference until you touch it. Unless it's under heavy water it won't bother anyone (leak)
If the Engineer's didn't account for added weight like what you showed, I think it's another piece to why it collapsed. There was 136 Condo Units, that 136 bathroom & kitchen renovations over the years. Do you think NIST will put out a preliminary report as we come to the 1 year anniversary? Great video as always
They likely will only do a final report in 3 years or so
This is scary - there definitely need to be new rules for redecoration in high rise buildings. Together with regular inspections by competent professionals. So glad I don't intend ever living in one!
Knowing that people will do this, they should design buildings accordingly
@@jeffostroff , strange, I've always greatly trusted high rise buildings, have a lot more confidence in their load-bearing capabilities than those of low-rise, which usually are far less robust in design. For example, my 4-story courtyard is strong for its type, but it is still not built to high rise standards. When waterbeds were a thing in the 70s, they were usually not allowed in these buildings at all because the floor joists were not designed with that weight in mind. Where they were allowed, they were permitted only on the lowest floor, which has the strongest supports as they're carrying the whole building, while the joists and columns on higher floors are smaller and weaker.
I think a big problem is condo owners doing the work themsevles without understanding anything about codes or engineering, or even knowing if they need a permit or not. HOA's should be writing it into the bylaws and enforcing it.
@@samanthaleach7672 I agree. There should be a law that owners record the mass of materials used in each refurbishment in the home manual.
@@jeffostroff You can make something fool proof, but you can never make it damn fool proof.
Great video and observation! Thanks!
Glad you liked it!
Loading is something to consider. I rented one side of a duplex, which had the owner/ landlord living in the other side. The master bedrooms were semi-cantilevered lofts located against the common wall. We both had king-sized waterbeds in these rooms. I became concerned with certain signs of subsidence that I was seeing, as well as stress cracks. I used my science degree to try to show them that I was concerned. They poo-pooed my concerns, however. Eventually a shoulder injury compelled me to get an entirely different type of mattress. I felt a little more relieved until the time we moved out. I do recall that Navy housing at NAS Whidbey banned waterbeds when they first came out. People take to much license without considering consequences.
Yes I had a waterbed once, in my house but on concrete base of first floor.
My brother had a waterbed... but he had no qualms because he had a basement apartment.
I remember when waterbeds were a big thing in the early 70s, and all my friends wanted them. I lived in a 1925 vintage courtyard in St Louis which had a concrete courtyard over a parking garage. A friend of mine wanted to rent there, but had a waterbed. Our landlords, like most who owned older buildings, would not allow them in units above the first floor, where the supports and joists were strongest as they supported the entire building, and became smaller and weaker each floor up. If I were a landlord, I wouldn't permit the things AT ALL, not only because of the weight, but because of the potential for leaks and water damage.
@@chicagonorthcoast They don't leak unless you're a moron. They have a liner. If they spring a leak. Trust me, you'll know (sheets get wet, no major).
Had one 15 years. 3rd floor, super single size. 100 year old building at the time. No problems at all. Wood frame, too.
Best sleep ever.
cat us waterbed equals RIP waterbed
Well, they were being advertised as "luxury" condos - gotta make them look the part, you know? And these days, that means lots of granite. And considering that many of the owners of the units were landlords renting out units... They didn't really care - they had zero intention of living in the building.
The ppl that actually lived in the building probably had no idea that it could be an issue. I'm sure the tiling on the patios contributed to how and when the building collapsed. I'm less sure of the extra weight from remodels. The cause is definitely the columns punching through and the pool deck collapsing. And I think that would have happened regardless of how much weight was added in the units.
Now, would the building collapse have happened a bit later (giving residents more time to escape) if the units hadn't added a bunch of weight? I don't know. Maybe, but maybe not. It's one of those things that we might never know for certain. But it probably did contribute at least a little to the stability of the structure and how it came down.
NIST will test the concrete and report back as to whether it was strong enough
After reading all the informative comments here, I will definitely approach any reno I do on my condo unit, or permit to be done in my building, differently. I had not even thought about the extra weight that things like granite countertops, stone floors, and extremely large and heavy bath fixtures could add to a building. Now I'll think of it.
Same here!
Jeff, I've been following your coverage since it happened and I've really enjoyed your analysis.
Thanks so much Ron I'm glad you like the videos.
Just came across you channel and find this point you’re bringing up very interesting. My husband works for the leasing impact windows and doors company and a few months before the collapse his crew was at this very building doing maintenance. My husband very first response when this happened was the very same as yours. This building’s strict could not take the additional weight added to it throughout the years. The impact panels added on decades after its build are extremely heavy. Imagine how much additional weight was put on this structure with every unit being “upgraded” to impact windows and sliding doors.
so the whole bldg got new windows,,? 'impact' -? from hurricanes??? i would guess,,,,, if they did the whole building,,,, that's a Huge amount of windows....
It's still hard to wrap my head around how it all came down so quickly. I know about pancaking, but it still defies intuition somehow, to see a normal building instantly become a pile of rubble, rather than failing in bits and pieces over a long period of time.
Yes, it is mind-boggling. If you remove 1 or 2 key columns, and the rest of the columns are now asked to redistribute the same weight load of the building, they now have to work harder, and they buckle under the pressure
I see your point but disagree with your hypothesis. This subject has already been discussed among several Engineers investigating the collapse. All buildings are designed with a dead load (the weight of the construction materials) and live load (weight of occupants and furniture etc....) . The building was not built with 2x10 floor joists 16" on center with 2x framed bearing walls in which typically have a designed dead load of 10# per S.F. and a 40# per SF live load as with standard Single Family Construction. It is quite common to have tile floors and walls, granite counter tops and soaking tubs in homes with a load values previously mentioned with no issues. A typical building like the Champlain Towers with re-enforced concrete floors at each level would easily support 80# + per SF. So the addition weight added during remodel had no affect on the building structure unless structural components were modified during the remodel process. The cause of the collapse was improperly placed re-enforcing steel at the columns that allowed the concrete to crack and salt laden moisture to corrode the rebar causing the floor to "punch thru" the columns. The building being built next store may have had an impact on the structural integrity of the foundation at Champlain Towers.
Once water gets into that slab on the balcony it comes on in the unit. The dryer environment in the unit attracts that moisture. Our balconies where not painted for 14 years and the humidity after a rain is crazy high. All thermostats should have humidity stats on it. Ac , dehumidifier and hot air is the only way to remove moisture from a building.
Thanks for sharing your wisdom and insight. I have no particular interest in tiling or remodelling but I couldn't stop listening to you because you are so engaging and I can tell you know what you're taking about! I hope the people who need to see this video can find it in time!
Jeff, your insights make a lot of sense - could the architect have forseen and made allowance for what appears to be 10x the weight? I live in an apartment built on stilts on the side of a hill. My original finishes were also half tiles in the bathroom with plastic bath, melamine kitchen finishes, fully carpeted ... we're all upgrading with tiles on the floors, granite tops in the kitchen, fancy bathrooms including cast iron baths ... luckily we're not high rise (just a stack of 2)! But then again ... I'm going to have a closer look at the width of those stilts.
Yes it makes us really stop to think
Best of luck with your renovations. Jeff brought up so many good points in this video. I have neighbors that have hairline fractures in the concrete patios leading up to their home because it wasn’t sealed properly and wonder why there’s so much moisture in their home.
Yes but it's not 10x. The building code gives an amount to use that more than covers what is going to go in there.
I hate buildings on stilts, and places built on the sides of hills make me very nervous. Seems to me that building on a steeply greded site adds a lot of engineering problems.
And maybe add some diagonal cross-bracing. It may be that they can hold the weight, if there is no way for something to shift or buckle?
I bought my house six years ago. It was built in 1918. I can walk under my house- and do frequently- Midwest/tornados😬. My home is a single storey, yet I have massive floor beams, thicker than the palm of my hand and at least 10-12" in depth and set 10" apart. My foundation is at least 3' thick and set way into the ground .I could put a swimming pool in my house and it would be fine. I am a big girl, very chunky and almost six feet tall and I can do jumping jacks in the middle of my living room floor and nothing shakes on my shelves. In newer apartments and even some new homes I looked at, they said no hot tubs or waterbeds( are they even a thing still?).
I guess my point is many years ago things were built when craftsmanship was appreciated and not just slapped together by the lowest bidder.
Many things combined to cause the collapse, it seems no one cares about poor building ethics until after a tragedy. Everyone is so concerned about making as much money as possible. And really they will sell the building, they don't care to pass it off to somebody else. Until people are forced to be held accountable tragedies will still happen.
There were plenty of crappy buildings built in 1918, or any era. It's just that the shoddy ones aren't around anymore. All we have left are the ones that were well enough built to last this long.
I've had the same concerns about condo make-overs that use heavy materials to replace the older, lighter materials. Like stone countertops, tile / stone floors (even the vinyl plank is heavier than the carpet), to replace vinyl, linoleum and carpet. Also, I bet that the washers & dryers made today are heavier than the older models.
I have a washing machine from 1986 and a dryer from right around the same time. Those things are beasts and *super* heavy. I don't think the modern ones my parents have even come close. The modern ones also run with *much* less water, so there's less weight during operation of the washer itself, too. And the modern ones vibrate and shake less - some of this will be attributable simply to the age of older machines still in operation, though. But those old agitators and the rough back-and-forth of the tubs during agitation could both be pretty aggressive. A reasonably sized modern washer/dryer set should be a bit of an improvement over 1970s/1980s models. But it's a tiny improvement against the sheer volume of added weight from the heavy tiles/granite/glass.
New stuff is always junk that often doesn't work as well.
I have an old window A/C (transom, in this case) I'll take over any other unit out there. Works extremely fast. Minus a minisplit. Possibly.
What about the penthouse above the 12th floor in the east wing? Wasn't that added a while after the tower was built? Because that would absolutely factor in. And of course, they built it above the east wing, which had the much thinner columns.
To that end, they probably could have let residents of the uncollasped west wing get all their stuff out. Since that end of the building was better built, I doubt it would have come down on its own.
It's not like it was added as an afterthought I believe the architects and the engineers included its weight and everything in the design and we're just fighting with the city because it was a 13th floor and the city only allows 12 floors 'cause they didn't want to have gigantic towers
As long as their bling looked good, they obviously were oblivious to the extra weight and the damage it could cause🤦♂
It has got to be a better investment than those ugly 2-door sports-coups with less space than a coffin? I just can not believe what people pay for over-hyped and over-priced car brands and little dinky cars that "look fast". The most bare-bones eco-box ugly family car can easily do freeway speeds, so why does "looks fast" even matter?
@@yosefmacgruber1920 I’m not quite sure these were a great investment! just like those Lovely Depreciated Mercedes😁
@@yosefmacgruber1920 Not a great investment when it’s sitting in a pile of rubble in a scrap yard.
@@detailerslife8127
Bling is so incredibly over-rated. I would rather have a good collection of books that I intent to actually read someday.
Against code violations eg the tiled balconies. Granite floor, wall and heavy counter tops. That shower you shown was a wet room and you can see the drain in the middle of the floor. I am guessing that drain was added after construction which could have entailed damage to the floor structure to install. The tin lid for me was (in a previous video) the two inch shear on the pool deck floor to wall which should have had engineers crawling all over it with an immediate prohibition order on tenancy.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but lets hope this kind of thing is a lesson to Building regulators and insurance companies, who are having to pay out substantial monies and to not forget those that paid good money but perished in the collapse, they deserved better protection.
I think we need to come up with better construction techniques too. Flat roofs and concrete are always going to create water problems and Florida sunshine, rain and humidity and cool cycles are going to be a challenge. Maybe a regular test of approval, more frequent the older the buildings get would be a help.
Like I said hindsight is a wonderful thing. It's up to regulators to simplify and enforce codes.
Yes, hopefully property managers will pay better attention to these in the future
Thanks for this comment. I had not thought about the larger floor drain being added in older buildings where tubs are being removed to turn their spaces into shower stalls. Many buildings in my area are permitting this, but after reading the comments here, I think that as a member of my condo's Board, I will urge that it be prohibited.
I totally believe that it was too much load on that building, especially when you consider what the demo team said when they went into collapse the rest of the building. The drills punch through that low psi concrete like it was paper when they were placing the charges so what does that tell you. My family built condos in the Pompano Beach area so a lot of this stuff looks really crazy when you look at how it was built. The whole thing screams at under engineered. If you want to see an example of our work, go look at the silver thatch Plaza. We gave them something strong hopefully they're still taking good care of it
YEs soft concrete in the columns of the building that survived the collapse. I want to see how soft were the columns on the half that collapsed
@@jeffostroff Probably 1000 PSF concrete.
That's not good. I've broken drill bits on just cabinet door drilling. Lol.
It makes so much sense to me too, that all this extra weight contributed to the tragedy. I live in a 40 year old rental apartment building where some retired people are willing to invest in their units and they had and I am worried.
I have been following you since the tragedy and since then I am afraid to even add a heavy plant pot on the balcony.
Of, course, it goes against our lease to tile our balconies, but some units, like the penthouse, has real trees on it and a lot of furniture.
But we don't live close to sand and an ocean, so we might be okay. Great videos, thank you.
Thanks JAde for coming back to watch more!
We just can not worry about everything that "could" happen. I want to leave The United _Slaves_ of America, due to all the rampant political corruption.
If I was thinking of buying, I would want to see the top and the bottom of the building. In fact, when I bought my house, I pulled down the attic ladder on my first viewing, to have a look.
A long time ago, when building a wooden piece of furniture that came in a compact box, the top was very thin. "Surely I will want to set something on top of it." So my Dad and I added additional support, hidden beneath the top.
@@yosefmacgruber1920 I don't think the owners knew the buiding was in bad condition. Even after the Morabito Engineering firm warned the condo Board in 2018 the residents were not notified.
@@georgiazettakaragianni9832
You would think that owners would want to do annual inspections or something? Why do the stupid people end up owning everything?
I've seen those balconies fall off the building. I don't recall of it was right before or after an inspection for sale. I think after!
I wouldn't go for it unless I knew how it was constructed. The solid, horizontal wood beams out from the wall are pretty safe. Metal can be ok, but not just bolted to the wall if in a snow state or by seawater, imo.
Ledger boards are a NO friggin NO from me. The entire weight reliant on cheap, little bolts from China? Yeah. Hell, no.
A too big porch killed 15 people when the ledger board sheared and killed everyone. Chicago. Granted. They were stupid college kids (overloading porches) but don't give them 20 feet out from the wall and it won't be an issue.
The added weight in the building may have been an added factor in the numerous factors that occured. I believe that if the pool deck was not attached to the building, the event still would have occured only because of the structures degraded state and added weight issues along with the columns being deteriorated and undersized for the loads. A detached pool deck would still have taken out 1 column and that was all that was need to knock it down. I do believe the neighboring development caused numerous issues that exacerbated the deterioration of structural components that under normal circumstances would have lasted long enough for Morabido to do the proper maintenance. This would have allowed them to "open" up the walls and structural areas that can't be done on a general or secondary inspection. When these things are exposed, all the secrets come out. All the bad work and or insufficient building codes, materials or workmanship. This building was doomed when the first sheet pile was driven next door. Otherwise , it had another 15 years of neglect before it showed any signs of a real imminent collapse.
YEs, they cannot neglect these buildings or they will bite back
@@jeffostroff of course. I was thinking in terms of the board kicking the can and doing the minimum per the status quo just to get by. The minimum gets you in a better place but doesn't solve the equation. Knowing that Morabido didnt do all the necessary recommendations like you or Josh would make, but just enough to cya (most likely based on the boards financial limits), they also would have cut corners or "didn't see it" cya to get to the minimum. In my mind the minimum is still neglect in the overall entirety of the building structure and in 15 years would have shown signs of collapse. But thats me knowing that the literal minimum everything was touched on this buildings original build. Some things are minimally missing from the original plans also. Amazing how that worked back in those days. Anyways , love your vidz on these things. Keep up the great work.
@@williammckee6685 seems to me that the condo owners were more concerned with looking pretty than being safe. which is probably one reason they are settling rather quick. They probably know that, the more the public realizes how little they did to maintain their building the less likely they are to get any money
That was pretty much my theory too since the beginning. All the condo owners that did these heavy remodels that put more stress on the building than it could handle. The pool deck waterproofing and water seepage was the final straw. The pool deck collapsed taking out at least one support, and with all the extra weight from remodeling, the other supports simply couldn’t bear the load. I also think this is the reason for an initial collapse and a secondary collapse.
@@Jerseybytes2 the perivious board yes. that is the saddest thing. the final board was fully aware of the issues and was tryign to work on it. but they got power too late.
You have opened my eyes. I have upgraded my own kitchen with quartz stone and the leg upright with the same stone.. I replaced the formica work tops. Thankfully my home is in England and is a ranch home (bungalow). I have also added large heavy wall tiles without even thinking
Glad it was helpful!
Having those heavy tiles on the balconies without proper support, was a good reason for the early failure. Roof water pooling surely helped destroy the structure from within.
Yes, in 2016, CTN had their residents remove tile from their patios, then they sealed and painted all of them
That tile was an insignificant weight. I have my M.Eng in Civil Engineering. Also, my first job after high school was flooring. Trust me when I say, the weight of the tile on the balconies had absolutely nothing to do with the collapse. I've never heard of a building code that prohibits the use of tile on a balcony. You can't calculate a dead load using the total weight of the tile. The weight per square foot is used. The total weight of the tile on the balconies was at most 200 lbs. I can't say for sure, but they look to be about 130±²' in area. 200 lbs equally distributed even over 100sq.ft. would never cause any kind of weight issue.
The failure was a corrosion issue mixed with a design flaw, specifically in beam/column attachment methods. It was not a weight problem.
@@pamike4873 Depends on the type of tile used. I am under the assumption these were marble, they weigh about 3 times more than a standard 12X12 indoor tile.
@@egold1006 Let's say they added a full ton of weight to each apartment. You need to consider the big picture. A building that is built for long term habitation, for all intents and purposes, is overbuilt. By a substantial margin. The designers know residents will remodel their units from time to time and calculate the dead load accordingly. Engineers have formulas they use in sizing structural members. If buildings collapsed due to residents adding a thousand pounds of tile, they'd be dropping like flies.
It may contribute to a collapse, but would never initiate one. Something would have to compromise the stability, like a bad foundation, corrosion, ground movement, etc. If Surfside had good bones, adding a couple dozen tons wouldn't cause any issues.
We love Jeff! Thanks for keeping us informed.
Thanks Carlton, glad you like the videos
I hear you on the weight of floor tiles. I just did a cheapo vinyl tile floor and even those boxes are heavy! The water pooling on the roof is an incredible weight. I have to wonder where building maintenance personnel were as this building was just a total fiasco. Thanks Jeff for the in depth information.
Oh wow! It's interesting you bring up the roof because a lot of times they just don't go up on the roof there's no reason for them to and nobody ever thinks that there's water pooling up there but virtually every roof I've ever been on there was water pooling just simply because they're not drained very well. At our Christian School at our church we had leaks all over the place because it was a flat roof with absolutely zero slope at all and so water really had nowhere to go it was a disaster
@@jeffostroff Yes, commercial flat roofs are notorious for leaks and drainage issues. I hope you were able to fix the leaks and the drainage at the Christian School. Then, if the gutters or roof drains are cleared, the water must be directed away from the building base which is another pain! I have the gutters and drainage on my monthly maintenance list along with a ton of other items-but its well worth the effort to avoid bigger problems.
As the widow of a builder, I remember my husband saying that building permits were to prevent home owners from shady construction companies taking advantage of the unsuspecting homeowner. Where were the city building inspectors when each condo owner submitted plans for renovation permits??? Did the city have no idea that adding all that new weight would compromise the building as a whole?!? It seems the city inspection office was very short sighted and not very knowledgeable about weight bearing loads.
IF the columns had been built right and building maintained properly, we would never have had to ask this question
Paid off
Considering the kitchens and bathrooms used nearly identical materials, I bet many if not most of the units held such weight. How else could two units be so similar if it was not widely done? Yes, Jeff I think you are right. Weight must have played a great part in the unnecessary tragedy.
And combine that with columns and concrete that have likely become derated over the years
@@jeffostroff and add in those colums were too weak to begin with
Agreed. I think interoir designers all use this same granite and marble (and glass) model to give the look of luxury
You bring up a really good point. As an engineer I have calculated many dead loads for a design. The initial design you list weights for expected materials to be used for flooring, counters, etc. The dead loads, live loads etc. are listed on design drawings. But I don't know how much oversight is done when a person is remodeling, especially for the DIY projects or even what is required by the maintenance or HOA of the building. There are safety factors when calculating for loads but they may not be enough to account for the replacement of rugs with tiles, etc.
When my current house was built we knew there was going to be a lot of granite in the kitchen area. All the floor joists were doubled and sat on a heavier beam.
Now that was a smart idea great thinking and advance.
@@jeffostroff -Thank you! I am very relieved that it was built that way.
I work for a newspaper and we recently moved our offices into an office condo area. We are on a second floor and the one thing we were unable to bring with us is our library of past editions. Every addition from 1980 until current is bound in a book and they're all in that library. Sometimes it's a great resource to just go back and look at old stories and sometimes you'll have someone call and ask about something that happened and you can just go physically look it up if they have a date. Since some of this predates computers it's important to have.
But the minute I found out we were moving into a unit that would have tenants underneath this I realized there was no place in our new building that would have the structure to hold this. We don't have enough room in each office to disperse the load so those are going to have to go into storage until we do something. Otherwise our library is going to wind up crushing somebody below
I would be interested to know if there was drip irrigation on the pool deck for the planters. If a valve sticks open with those, it's very easy to miss. Over time it could be lots of water.
Yes it's amazing how stupid condos are done here they waste water like you wouldn't believe I can't tell you how many times I'd be driving by and a dumping down rainstorm and they're running sprinklers all over the place simply because they don't have rain sensors or a modern Wi-Fi enabled sprinkler.
I think over on Building Integrity’s channel the calculation he did showed the building was over stressed from the get go, then they kept slapping more stuff on top of it, sounds like a great plan
Any contractor would know not to put that kind of weight in a structure built in 1970. The codes were know were as rigid as today. I'm wondering how many contractor's looked at the condominiums and told the tenants there is no way to do what you want done. Because of the age of the building and weight of the materials you want?
By the looks of those internal pics, every contractor just kept adding stuff.
Yeah, my townhouse is (or was when we moved in 2019) brand new, and not even this place has floor to ceiling tiles, ditto normal granite countertops, although these places are a standard plan and are built to be cheap and high density.
This is going to be one factor of many. It's compounded by the fact that this was taking place in all apartments over the years. While one apartment might not be an issue, if you're adding another ton of weight to 20 different apartments that's going to have an impact on the stability of a building. Then you have to factor in the lack of maintenance, the addition of an expanded penthouse apartment, the poor renovation of the pool deck, the planters which were added later and created far more strain on the supports than they were built for... it's a long list of issues that people just don't think about, or don't connect. Most incidents of this scale are created by ten or twenty issues that no one but an extremely aware structural engineer would consider, and if the owners of a property aren't controlling things the way they should or don't understand the consequences of all these failures converging into a catastrophe, we get what we saw here.
Yes and one other important fact that a lot of people don't take into consideration, is that the harder you go in the building the lower the PSI of the concrete gets and so you're talking about the same weight applied in an apartment during a remodel, but yet the concrete as you go higher up it's not a strong to handle it.
Great video! The dehumidifier in the unit with the white tile shows that renovations were done on top of a rotted building.
Yes there was some types of moisture just totally inundating that building
I am very surprised that none of those extremely heavy tiled balconies didn't collapse before the building did. I wish one did though. It would have saved hundreds of lives, as an investigation would have started then.
They had already repaired balconies for concrete spalling twice
I live in Las Vegas in a typical one story wood framed home on a concrete slab, tile roof. I inherited from my father two condominiums in Coronado, CA, one that I rent to long term tenants and one for myself to use as a beach getaway. Our buildings are older than the Surfside, late 1960's through the mid 1970's for the ten buildings in our complex. I can say that our columns are much thicker, 24 x 24 and multiple solid concrete sheer walls throughout the structures, mainly exterior walls on the side of the buildings, stair and elevator towers. No doubt that many of our units including mine have had a lot of weight added with tile floors, granite countertops, and other various items that you show in your video. For us, in a seismic zone I presume that we are built to a higher standard and within our ten HOA's, each building is its own, nothing really has been said since the collapse in Florida. We also have to get a sign off from any and all modifications to the units and we employ a structural engineer to oversee the plans and to insure that the plans are carried out. Some years ago, we had a good shake over the border in Mexico, about a 7.0 and the building shook a lot but no damage. My balcony has no tile but many do and quite a few are enclosed and one is enclosed with huge sliding glass walls which I was surprised, allowed to be installed. Makes one wonder if now is a good time to sell.
Yes the newer you can buy, theoretically you got more modern building codes
@@jeffostroff Definitely, but we were much older by a decade. The newer buildings have more rebar resulting from the code changes after the 1971 Sylmar quake.
I wonder if those stone tiles or big tubs made a difference, really. According to the U of Washington professor who the Miami Herald hired to do a forensic examination, that building was so over-stressed that, in her words, it was surprising it stood for so long as it did. Surely the renos in some units added a little weight, but if the design had been robust enough to begin with, it would have stood. The columns beneath the collapsed portion were only 18" thick, while those under the front section that still stood were 24". The building was showing signs of distress within the first decade of its life. Just doesn't seem to me there's any getting around poor design and poor construction from the outset.
Yes, and the poor design needs a stressor to trigger the failure mode
@@jeffostroff , seems to me that there was a conjugation of triggers in play, but the deterioration and final breakage of already-inadequate support columns and beams seems to my uneducated, non-engineer brain, to have been THE deciding factor.
The stretch of the design, the idea for parking garage, the removal of support beams on the engineering plan under the planters. The addition of the penthouse. The crane collapsing over the structure and the site sitting when they encountered funding issues. An earlier poorly done epoxy crack repair. Sea level rise. Putting palms in, taking palms out. Concrete test results not connected to a crack in the pool patio planter and blamed on plant roots. A condo next door removing a beach access road and putting in a gravel French drain because it seemed "ecological" to a modern designer; but hellishly dumb in a building built on beach sand. A clueless HOA and a structural engineering company not wanting to condemn a building and face lawsuits. A perfect storm
oh yeah. Looked back at the video and reminded of those extra bedroom patios that weren't on the as-built released at the collapse. Very interested if other plans came out of someone's basement with proper patios and proper column schedule with the penthouse. And the fact the roofer started work on the safety system for going down the building sides and was improving the roof state just before it came apart.
I learned when I built my first house, that building codes are the minimum standard required. Unless you want springy floors and no room for expansion you will want to exceed code by a fair margin.
Yes if you've ever watched Mike Holmes with that show Holmes on Homes that came out of Canada in the early 2000s, he used to always say that minimum code was never enough
I definitely agree you Jeff that these renovations were a major factor contributing to the collapse of the Champlain perhaps even THE main reason for the collapse. All buildings regardless of construction method are designed to carry only so much much weight. Exceed those limits and eventually the structure comes down like a house of cards which is what happened here.
The bathroom and kitchen renovations are spectacular but when you think of the weight of all that stone and marble the #'s are mind-boggling! And you can be sure that similar renovations were being done throughout the building especially in the wing that collapsed that was closer to the beach and had the best views! There were probably not so many similar renovations in the western wing of the tower especially in the units without a view of the beach. Perhaps a reason why that wing remained standing.
Watching this video it made me wonder how many other '70's era buildings in this area are at risk of collapse as owners upgrade them to 2022 standards of luxury?
Shouldn’t buildings structure be designed to hold wgt?
@@arribaficationwineho32 When this apartment tower was designed over fifty years ago granite countertops, marble-clad bathrooms and solid wood flooring were not a thing. Back then relatively lightweight materials were used e.g., wall-to-wall carpet, Formica countertops, vinyl flooring, ceramic tile etc. The designers could not have anticipated what materials would be used in upgrades fifty years later hence the building was never designed to take such extra loading.
@@kevinkeswick1243 thanks!
Tile installed in the 70s was set in a thick mud bed, not thinset. And the tubs were cast iron, not fiberglass like today. We installed a 72" tub recently and I could move it around by myself. Most everything was heavier in the 70s
No doubt they didn’t spend ten cents on weight capacity for items that didn’t exist at the time. I think I saw where they failed to add the required safety margin to begin with.
Yes, some reports say the building was at 100% load design on pool deck
Great update, I'm looking forward to your next installment.
Thanks Paul!
Excellent point to suspect excessive "weight loads" of remodeled units over time since the 70's. Original construction used fibreglass shower/tub enclosures while later adding tile, glass, stone and cast iron designer tubs along with heavy marble or slate kitchen and bathroom countertops. Many may have added hardwood flooring, all contributing to possibly compromise structural integrity.
It will be interesting to see if NIST makes any notice of that as well
You make a great point here. interior design has changed over the years when it comes to "high end" renovations. They now include grainite, tiles (instead of carpet), heavy glass panels, and floor to ceiling installments. While one or two units may not have much of an effect, when you multiply it by 12 floors, it adds up quickly. Particluarly when you add in the balcony tiles...that weight wouldn't be distributed evenly across the supports, but would rest solely on the outside wall to carry the load. Again, mulitplied by 12 floors that's a TON of weight. Something else to consider is the WEIGHT of water intrusion....when porous materials get wet, that also adds weight. If the tile on the balconies had water intruding it could add significant weight on top of the materials themselves. SInce it's not exposed to air, it wouldn't evaporate easily. Finally, look at the additional weight of the plater boxes on the pool deck, in additon to the sand and pavers. Now consider the weight of water intrusion there too. I could easily see all this adding up to be well over what the structure was engineered to handle. Also, how about those palm trees in the planter boxes. Could the roots of the trees caused cracks underneath where water could also intrude and corrode the rebar?
Yes maybe they should have had people looking at this back when they were adding all of these items to the building
I do agree that the additional heavy load per unit was never anticipated back in the 70's. I sure as heck never thought about redoing by adding heck heavy granite and natural stone tiles. It should have never been allowed. I do believe that every condo complex in upper class areas such as this are all over loaded. Will anything be done to remove the problem? I doubt it. Are you going to question the locations where you have property because you know your places will be like this also. Where I live in Colorado, there are still tons of houses on mud sills and people have no clue. They were built in the 60's. I have noticed that realtors never mention them to me, lol. Yes, I flipped houses for years and did most of the fixing myself. It is insane how many code violations I see in the houses I view.
Where in Colorado are you speaking of? In the early sixties, my brother and me worked with our Dad during summer vacation from school! We installed a lot of garage doors when Bear Valley was just beginning! Just curious as to the location of the houses you were speaking of! Thanks!
PS: I still live in the Denver Metro Area and I am a native of Denver! Not too many of us natives are still here!
Jeff; Among a number of other concerns about this whole CTS debacle, additional weight has troubled me from the start. As a contractor for 40 years, I KNOW that these types of materials are extremely heavy. And my hunch is that they have added marble and granite ALL OVER the building. These are the materials that people seem to choose now. And yes they tend to add very heavy, thick glass, lots of ceramic tile, often porcelain tile for floors and walls, much of it set on 1/2' Durarock or other cement fiber board. Jeff, one pick up truckload of this stuff makes my full-size pick up sag. Now multiply by 100 condo units, and add the common areas. And you are right, these places built in the '70's mostly had only Formica, carpet, no kitchen backsplashes, el cheapo shower doors. Now for all I know, the building was still designed to withstand 100 PSI back then, and now. I don't really know what that number is supposed to be. I read somewhere that they also added a bunch of granite and marble to the lobby as well. And those pavers stones on the pool deck, along with a base of sand. Along with the concrete planters, full of dirt, and with huge palm trees. Oh my my. I've been in old houses where house "flippers" have just added humongous insane stone master bathrooms and I leave just wondering how the hell is this house ever going to NOT sag over time, or collapse. It's insane really. And later they added a 13th floor penthouse that I don't think was in the original plans???????. Man you gotta wonder if all of this was discussed in the lawsuits, or did they just gloss over it all, and hit those with the deepest pockets? i.e.insurance companies. The whole thing is just sickening.
Yes a lot of weight they could not have foreseen in 1979
That shower panel is 1/2" or 3/8" no more than that. I used to install glass like that. Heavy stuff. The only thing thicker I've installed were glass steps. 1 1/2" and to make them they had to sandwich several layers, I think it was called slumping.
IT looks so thick in the photos
@@jeffostroff With respect Jeff, I disagree, and I am sure than PGTMR2 is correct, and IMO the lower number is more likely. As I watched the video, my thought was that it was only 1/4", which is still really thick, but I agree it could have been 3/8".
It even looks like the patios off the units were sagging some.
This whole thing was an absolute nightmare.
Another solid video in your collapse series Jeff! During the design phase of this structure, no doubt back in the early 1970s, what considerations were given for any sub-foundation work? Are structures of this type rooted to bedrock is your area, or set upon a pile foundation system? What considerations were then given to salinity of the ground water? Good questions do seem to beget additional inquiry. Keep the story rolling! -Bob...
I assume they drove in piles that hit limestone
@@jeffostroff For deep bedrock or hard limestone or such bearing materials, I wonder how much attention was paid to salt water infiltration and choice of pile materials. Maybe if someone had access to the design test borings, additional questions could arise? Or would these borings be hidden to prevent a possible larger scale issue?
@@wranther I believe Josh on Building Integrity went into details about the piles used for 8777 / CTS a few months back... maybe Jeff did too, but he can clarify, and maybe link the video(s).
@@LakeNipissing Thanks for the tip! Will have to check out.
All so true, and extra weight on floors is something few people consider. I recently remodeled a bathroom and did the demo myself. Getting the old vanity out was no problem since it was melamine and Formica. The new vanity - 20" smaller than the old - is so heavy I couldn't even drag it.
I think you hit the nail on the head. It may have been an added stressor, but that building was going to fail from the rust.
I think it would have fallen anyway yes
I am 100% sure the excessive weight from marble/stone type flooring, counters and walls in multiple units acted as the “straw that broke the camels back”.
certainly did not help the situation for sure!
What is really amazing is the east tower that fell last stood for the amount of time it did. Can you imagine the stress put on that section for the maybe five or ten seconds it dealt with before finally going down from the primary and then secondary twisting forces? And then it went straight down vs. tilting to one direction and then break apart.
I believe that the H-Beam and the small shear wall of the staircase held up that part for those extra 10 seconds before they too failed under the increased load demand
@@jeffostroff That part sure did the hula hoop by much before it sank !
@@Garth2011 Never forget the people.... residents in this section likely woke up from the tremendous noise of the middle section coming down and were in complete terror for the last seconds of their life. It was so disturbing to see a few lights turned on in some windows of the east section, seconds before the east section collapsed. People were awake. It's horrific to think of what they experienced.
@@LakeNipissing I agree. Sadly, the no votes lost much.
Don't they always go straight down?
Informative video . I believe that the weight was definitely a contributing factor.. from the research I've done and the reports I've seen I believe it all started with the palms on the pool deck. With the added load of the heavy planters with the trees and soil in them, started to crack undermine main supports in the garage. Even though the tree's were removed the damage had already been done.. cracks in the concrete allowed water penetration at the rebar and mesh reinforcement inside the concrete. Once salt and moisture hits steel it's all over... ask anyone that drives a car in the rust belt. Metal literally turns to swiss cheese.. rebar reinforcement rods and steel wire mesh obviously takes much longer to corrode and rust completely through. This combined with all the added load inside units of the building, after the pool deck fell and took out many crucial supports in the garage, leaving an overweight unsupported foundation, is what brought down half of the building. I'm no expert 🤣. Just my half ass opinion of what happened.
Yes and remember that the top and bottom steel rebars and a column or in a slab are only an inch and 1/2 into the surface. So years of rain or water leaking onto it won't take long to get through that concrete into the rebar
The wall is dripping rust from the corner bead under the plaster. That metal strip. Water is coming from the top sitting in the corner then rusting. The metal cracked the paint.
Yes, they must have not sealed that wall very well
Properly engineered structures in the USA would normally have about a 100% fudge factor. That is the structure is engineered to hold/withstand 100% more load than needed for the building itself and its contents. With that in mind, the high-end kitchens and bathrooms should have not been an influence on the collapse. The striking issue identified in previous videos is the apparent fact that the collapse of the pool deck actually caused the building collapse. Those two structures should have been structurally independent, not co-dependent.
I don't think it's the smoking gun, but all the extra weight certainly couldn't have helped. It would certainly have eaten into the margin, made it easier for the collapse to progress, etc. With essentially a global overload condition across the structure, the columns would be that much more vulnerable to damage and far less capable of redistributing the load after the first bit of serious damage on the 9.1/10 row from the failing/failed pool deck.
Where the added weight probably was part of the cause or initiation, is the significant material added to the pool deck. The interior weight then helped the collapse spread rapidly.
I think that heavy double H beam under the pool deck at KLM 9.1 to 11.1 meant the structure was doomed from the pool deck collapse. The interior weight just helped make it rapid, cut down the time between the first major failure on the night and total collapse.
It seems odd those thick beams gave way so easily
@@jeffostroff My theory on that is the pool deck failure/collapse damaged the KLM 11.1 columns and/or their connection to the double H beams. The beams then hinged down on the 9.1 columns, fatally damaging them and starting the countdown to the collapse of the upper structure.
It's speculation based on the evidence, what makes the most sense to me to explain both how those beams fell and the overall progression. The famous video down the ramp may show those beams after they fell (it's difficult to be certain exactly what is seen because the critical area is so dark).
Yet it was the pool deck that was overloaded and in poor condition and gave way first, the place with the least excuse for it? And why did they need such heavy planter boxes for anyway? A few potted plants here and there, wouldn't have been enough?
I work in the airline industry in maintenance I realize that this is not the same thing as a building but any time we add a new equipment to a aircraft it has to be documented whether we add or subtract weight and the location of the equipment installed or removed for balance purpose examples are like entertainment equipment video screens and equipment for example 300 seats through out aircraft heavy audio/visual equipment on radio racks antennas etc as like you said original building never came with as these are add ons so yes I agree all these upgrades were never anticipated
Is it too heavy? If designed properly it is not too much load but was it designed properly? There are other buildings designed in that period that were designed by engineers who weren't structural engineers, and there are lots of details on the drawings that would make you question how it was designed.
A residential building is required by the building code to be designed for live load of 40 psf. The code is the same today as it was in that era.
You started with the bathroom- those stone walls on mortar on cement board would be at least 1.5" thick. The walls around that tub area would be about 4' plus 8' plus 8' which is total weight of about 3,000#. That bathtub, full of water, could weigh 700#. My bathroom looks to be similar or smaller than that one, I measured it to be 125 square feet. Per code the floor of my bathroom should be capable of carrying 5000# so they are getting close. Yes that tile gets heavy, I bought travertine tile for a previous house and they delivered it to the front yard, I had to pick up each box and carry it around to the back of the house. I think that was over 1200# of tile. If they had tile like this in a 125 square foot bathroom it would weigh about 1,500# so now we're up to 5200#, barely over the 5000# capacity.
Next you showed the kitchen. I have a little less countertop in my kitchen, I measured 41 square feet so lets say they have 60 square feet. If they doubled up on 2cm granite then they would have 1,300# of countertop. I have a refrigerator like that and I've moved it, it is probably 400-500#. All of the cabinets could add up to nearly 1,000#. Add in backsplash and tile on the floor for another nearly 3,000#. My kitchen plus breakfast area is total 240 square feet so per code it would have capacity of 9,600# so they are at less than 2/3 capacity. They could load in around 20 adults and still not be overloaded.
Last you showed the balconies. Again the balconies are designed for 40 psf. If they used thick stone tile the tile and setting bed can get to about 12 psf leaving 28 psf for everything else. All of the balconies that you showed were either 100% empty or nearly 100% empty. Looking at the CT drawings some of those balconies will be at least 200 square feet. They would have a reserve capacity of 5,600# each. That's 30+ adults.
And when you are considering how much overload there might be in a building- if they have 50 psf instead of 40 psf, that's not 25% overload. You have to consider the weight of the building itself. Each floor slab in the tower would be 100 psf for the weight of the concrete, so putting in 50 psf instead of 40 psf would be 7% overload. This is pretty insignificant in a properly designed building. (There's that "properly" word again.)
When I moved to a new house a few years ago the moving company counted the number of chairs, tables, sofas and boxes, put it into a computer program and estimated the total weight. The total estimated weight averaged over the size of our house was around 10 psf. A residence should be designed for 40 psf so that leaves a lot of room for heavier items here and there.
Remember that concrete is not waterproof, bricks and concrete block are not waterproof, tile is not waterproof, plaster is not waterproof. It blocks a lot of water from getting in but not 100%. Beyond the bricks and plaster and tile, you need a real waterproofing membrane to provide the real barrier against water and even that might not be 100% forever.
Good info, thanks Bill
Uh, I think most bathtubs at any moment, are empty of water. Not unless everybody filled their bathtubs in preparation of a hurricane perhaps? So wouldn't you figure empty tubs times however many, plus some small extra factor for the small percentage that would have water or some person bathing in them?
@@yosefmacgruber1920 That is a valid concept that is recognized in the building codes. It also depends on the nature of the load and on the structural element that you are designing. For instance designing one floor of a building you only care about the bathtub that is setting on that floor, not the bathtubs setting on other floors. So the design load case includes that one bathtub full. Now if you are checking the building column down in the basement, it could be supporting 11 or so floors with bathtubs and it is unlikely that all of those bathtubs will be full at the same time. So the building code allows a cumulative load to be reduced somewhat depending on the amount of floor area the one element is supporting and the number of floors the one element is supporting. This applies to other types of loadings such as office loading and parking loading. It is unlikely that every floor of an office building will have high density of files, desks and people in one area so the higher loaded floors can average with the lighter loaded floors when you are designing a column or a foundation element. Likewise in a multistory parking garage it is unlikely that every parking space will be filled with the heaviest vehicle all at the same time, there will be some small cars mixed in there. Even when designing a single floor with large distances between columns there will be areas full of desks and areas that are more open so that all averages out.
@@billj5645
Well unless some silly fad of driving the heaviest Hummers takes hold? I kind of suspect that half of those big SUVs and fancy expensive pickup-trucks, with those hitch bars sticking out towing nothing but-of-course, are by people who have no legitimate purpose for such a big vehicle, who just have to have a giant SUV or truck, just to compensate for some area that they feel small in. Conversely, those secure guys who drive small or average vehicles may be well-endowed in a certain area?
@@yosefmacgruber1920 Probably true to some extent, the "gold chain" people used to drive lightweight Porsches, but not 100% true because I drive a relatively small car.
I've worked on a lot of parking garages. The average parking garage has 27' x 60' bays and each bay would contain 6 parking spaces plus the drive aisle could contain 2 more vehicles for a total of 8. The building code would require that area to be designed for a total load of 65,000 pounds. Our giant vehicles still haven't reached that point, even if all of the vehicles parked there were giant vehicles as if there was a convention of people needing their compensation. If our giant vehicles become electric and need to add 3,000 pounds of batteries each, then our parking areas might start to be in trouble.
This reminds me so much of chaos theory. Years ago I came out of my apartment in Oakland, CA and heard a huge cracking sound, I knew it was a tree branch so I jumped back into the entrance as a massive tree branch came crashing down. It made me wonder about how it probably was dry and hotter and after years it suddenly just broke. The city probably should have been watering all the trees but I don't really know. All these factors combine and I wonder why no one saw the warning signs. Morabito should have known the dangers and had the building evacuated years ago. I recently went to an underground garage and I looked very carefully for water and cracks. In fact I am much more paranoid about buildings now thanks to your videos. I find all of this fascinating.
"No one saw the warning signs" because "condos don't just collapse". In the days and weeks after the collapse of CTS, several other apartment and condo buildings in S Florida were deemed at risk and evacuated, and the _only_ thing that had changed was an awareness that such buildings sometimes _DO_ just collapse!
@@pulaski1 Actually I read that Morabito did see the warning signs but 'watered down' their report because they don't want to get people in trouble. I think they did say that the matter was urgent but the condo board ignored the warning. I should have said why didn't the engineers that came thru that place immediately say the condo should be evacuated? There were warning signs that were ignored.
Because of this collapse luckily it will have a lot more people paying attention where they never even noticed cracks and leaks before
I totally agree Jeff. The building was never designed for the amount of weight they put on it with all the remodeling. And why on earth didn’t anyone think about adding so much weight before they did the remodel. It blows my mind to think they were all so ignorant.
Somewhere, someone knows what the static loads should be
HOA should have rules regarding the upgrades and weight allowed
Yet a lot of elevators have a sign inside indicating how much weight that they are rated to carry.
@@mary-vb7fm the hoa was probably stuck once they let one person remodel they had to let everyone. It would be impossible to limit a home remodel to weight.
I think the building designers were totally and criminally negligent if they create a building so close to its design limits that remodeling using stone or granite can bring the structure down. The fittings and finishes of a building will age and wear out before the building reaches the end of its useful life. Remodeling should be expected. Remodeling materials and trends change. Assuming 70's era linoleum, 4x 4 ceramic tiles and Formica countertops an will be used forever is a fools hypothesis. A 1940's house electrical system never envisioned home computers, microwaves, sub zero fridges, AC, kitchen appliances, whirlpool tubs and more.
In Baltimore there is the Former Maryland National Bank Building originally constructed as Baltimore Trust Company Building in 1929. Today the building houses luxury apartments complete with granite countertops, granite bathrooms and luxury whirlpool tubs. NO WAY did the original designers of the circa 1929 building allow for apartments filled with luxury thick granite countertops, heavy whirlpool tubs, wood floors, glass block walls, massive sub zero refrigerator freezers and more. However the designers of the 1929 structure designed a strong solid building with the future in mind.
The 1970's building was a cheap badly designed structure that barely met the existing inadequate written codes when new. The cheap building was crowned with a penthouse level that was not part of the original plan adding weight to an already stressed building. Add years of neglect, poor maintenance, a condo board fixated on building aesthetics instead of structure, add Florida soil and another building going up nearby and it is easy to see this disaster coming. Don't blame residents remodeling with heavy stone for bringing this house of wet soggy cards down.
This building was a mass of cheap ill conceived badly cared for garbage aching to collapse. A building properly built and cared for will not collapse because residents add granite countertops, showers and backsplashes. If a building falls as a result of normal remodeling then the building codes and structural engineers are solely the blame. Oh and I live in a building from the 1970's. Our concrete floors are much THICKER than the newly built garbage apartment buildings nearby.