He is so right. When I am learning pieces by other piano players I can recover from flubbed notes but when I play beethoven one wrong note can mean the entire piece falls apart and train wrecks. Its weird how that happens with his music.
Yes it's not only about one note, the entire structure needs to be carefully thought of and speculated in order for the listener to really understand what is going on and what's happening in the mind of the composer. Every bar, Every accent,Every articulation has to be precise in order to achieve what beethoven wants to say And you know the funny thing is that no matter how hard you try to do it it just never happens. Its like a path with a destination, you keep on walking but you never reach, Every time you feel like you're about to get closer it just moves further away. Idk that's how I feel about the music I'm sure you have other opinions too. Thank you. It only gets better but not perfect. You know I guess that's the beauty of life.
To me Beethoven is real life. Ups and downs triumphs and tragedies. Pain, etc. I’ll take him over anyone else, as his music speaks to those of us living a flawed mammal pattern seeking life
Here's the way I think about it: When you listen to Mozart, like the piano sonatas and concertos and other pieces, you can get the feeling that there isn't any pain in the world. But when you listen to Beethoven, the feeling you get is that all the pain you've ever felt is worth it, that the pain is part of you, and overcoming it allows you to feel joy.
@@VinceLyle2161listen to mozarts requiem and tell me you still feel the same. He wrote that album as a song to commemorate someone’s death, as he was commissioned to write it, but it’s also a requiem to his own death.
Beethovens music is very sad. Mozarts is very deep. Beethoven was a sad man but Mozart was not. They had different approaches with music and with how they handled their situations but both had pain in their life and music
@@Ben-zh4nz I did, and I still prefer Beethoven, as beautiful as Mozart's sadness is, his sadness is tinged with the Elegiac sweetness of the memory of a person still on the cusps of the feelings of those they leave behind. Although it may be forgotten in time, it is an immortal sadness like the sepulchre and tomb that stands beyond the withering away of rain and winds, even in its battered and worn shape after the corrosiveness of ages gone past, but still a lingering memory, something mourning its ultimate disappearance from the world but glad to use the last motes of its strength. A new day may rise which will rekindle the cold flame in rejuvenation of the next Spring after Winter's cold, supplanting the Nocturne of the Night with the rebirth of a mysterious unbeknownst Morn beyond the paling consciousness of that which passes through to eternity. But Beethoven's form of sadness goes further, is more cavernous, not a sweet lullaby but a bombastic cataclysm of the ages not yet finished and not yet able to Eulogise its awareness of itself into forms of funeral sending us off, his is more destructive, more potent, more powerful and reaches to the very foundations of the causes of exisence at the beginnings of time when God foundered and made a mistake in properly creating the world, a sadness embittered with the rage and scorn of despised loves, injustices of history, and the blood of the tears of rage in solitude against the absurdity of many people's fates.
@@VinceLyle2161 yes exactly that's how I feel too Mozart is a great composer and I enjoy his melodies but when I listen to beethoven I Feel the pain The struggle the rage and anger especially in his 5th and 7th symphonies and in many of his sonatas which go hand and hand with his struggle with his loss of hearing that's how I prefer him
I read that Beethoven suffered from lead poisoning--from the additives to his wine, medications, etc. This ailment wasn't mortal for him but would explain his loss of hearing, his difficulty focusing, his wild mood swings, etc. That makes me wonder how Beethoven would have been different if he were healthy. Would he have conformed to convential form or would he have been the bold innovator we know now? Super interesting.
Bernstein you revealed to us, with your expertise, the secret of Beethoven's immensity. And I, who have been listening to it all my life, really agree with you. Thank you.
Although I understand why he would critique Beethoven the way he does (based on his education and experience), he misses the whole point. You cannot begin to judge his melodies, arrangements, dynamics separately. It like saying a Rolls Royce could have better tires or a faster engine. The WHOLE is ALL that matters. Analyzing the various aspects of Beethoven's process and the elements that make up his compositions is pointless. It is what it is and he is right about one thing...not ONE note could be changed or be different. He was a channel for the infinite consciousness of existence to the human condition and consciousness. Beethoven is like an element. Fire, water, Air Beethoven. The true embodiment of the universal vibration of music.
Bernstein is just talking through his ass. He is full of it! He wrote absolutely nothing compared to what Beethoven wrote. Everybody knows it's all about the next note. That's what makes the melody.
@@spqr369 the correct term is "condescending baloney". Bernstein is talking a right load of condescending baloney. Bernstein wrote Fancy Free which is also a load of condescending baloney.
For me Beethoven is an existentialist who does not allow himself hiding from the truth and fate, always seeking a way to confront it. Of course he suffered while composing.
The nonsense that Beethoven wasn’t a great melodist… The Adagio of the Pathetique. The Adagio of the Ninth. The Finale of the Sixth. And so on. These are not great melodies? I’d much rather hear these melodies than Tchaikovsky’s!
He was good at hymn like melodies that have the feeling of a pebble hitting a pond and causing light ripples. But he simply didn't need traditional, long lined melodies for a lot of the pieces he produced.
Bernstein wroten an extended Socratic dialogue about this in the '50s. There's only so much you can show in this short clip but Beethoven preferred short, motivic themes that he could develop.
Great piece here. And re: writing a fugue- unlike any JSBach fugue, Ludwig somehow time- traveled beyond "modernism" and wrote the Grosse Fuga opus 133 - an extremely forward facing, much dissonent work that is often a challenge to wrap one's mind around. But, that's art - it's not "entertainment" - art requires *effort* to create - and to appreciate.
very true what he said about the inevitable note.. for example the 2 movement of Eroica.. however, in my opinion, the orchestration there is also unbelievable... how the contrabass is integrated there. When I listen to it I feel as if its strings are inside my body.. and as for the melodies - I don't agree either.. for example the melody in the eighth sonata in the second movement is so moving in its restraint. and I have mamy many more examples...so I am not a musican.. dont even play, but I live in my soul clasical music since I was very little child. So I do not have the knowledge, but I feel I can not agree with what Bernstein said at the begining...
Depends on whether one's view of genius is based on inborn skill, "god-given" talent if you will, or if the view of genius is based on practice. Personally I don't care for the "god-given" genius idea: there is no genius I know off that didn't work their a** off to be that. The violinist/composer Sarasate was to have said more or less, "for 37 years I practiced 14 hours a day, now they call me a genius."
@@starsandnightvision True but Schubert's developments are painful, the melodies colapse with every new bar which is tragic because his melodies are brilliant.
He did not "...move because he couldn't find a place he'd find nice". He was just so over the place and got kicked out so many times by the landlord because he didn't manage to pay the rent in time although he was kinda rich. Generally, that dude is talking A LOT. And he thinks of himself as a big genius point that out. But it's just not on spot what he says about BTHVN music
He is so right. When I am learning pieces by other piano players I can recover from flubbed notes but when I play beethoven one wrong note can mean the entire piece falls apart and train wrecks. Its weird how that happens with his music.
Yes it's not only about one note, the entire structure needs to be carefully thought of and speculated in order for the listener to really understand what is going on and what's happening in the mind of the composer. Every bar, Every accent,Every articulation has to be precise in order to achieve what beethoven wants to say
And you know the funny thing is that no matter how hard you try to do it it just never happens. Its like a path with a destination, you keep on walking but you never reach, Every time you feel like you're about to get closer it just moves further away. Idk that's how I feel about the music I'm sure you have other opinions too. Thank you. It only gets better but not perfect. You know I guess that's the beauty of life.
That is really true. It will always be a reach for perfection; on earth anyway.
To me Beethoven is real life. Ups and downs triumphs and tragedies. Pain, etc. I’ll take him over anyone else, as his music speaks to those of us living a flawed mammal pattern seeking life
Here's the way I think about it:
When you listen to Mozart, like the piano sonatas and concertos and other pieces, you can get the feeling that there isn't any pain in the world.
But when you listen to Beethoven, the feeling you get is that all the pain you've ever felt is worth it, that the pain is part of you, and overcoming it allows you to feel joy.
@@VinceLyle2161listen to mozarts requiem and tell me you still feel the same. He wrote that album as a song to commemorate someone’s death, as he was commissioned to write it, but it’s also a requiem to his own death.
Beethovens music is very sad. Mozarts is very deep. Beethoven was a sad man but Mozart was not. They had different approaches with music and with how they handled their situations but both had pain in their life and music
@@Ben-zh4nz I did, and I still prefer Beethoven, as beautiful as Mozart's sadness is, his sadness is tinged with the Elegiac sweetness of the memory of a person still on the cusps of the feelings of those they leave behind. Although it may be forgotten in time, it is an immortal sadness like the sepulchre and tomb that stands beyond the withering away of rain and winds, even in its battered and worn shape after the corrosiveness of ages gone past, but still a lingering memory, something mourning its ultimate disappearance from the world but glad to use the last motes of its strength. A new day may rise which will rekindle the cold flame in rejuvenation of the next Spring after Winter's cold, supplanting the Nocturne of the Night with the rebirth of a mysterious unbeknownst Morn beyond the paling consciousness of that which passes through to eternity. But Beethoven's form of sadness goes further, is more cavernous, not a sweet lullaby but a bombastic cataclysm of the ages not yet finished and not yet able to Eulogise its awareness of itself into forms of funeral sending us off, his is more destructive, more potent, more powerful and reaches to the very foundations of the causes of exisence at the beginnings of time when God foundered and made a mistake in properly creating the world, a sadness embittered with the rage and scorn of despised loves, injustices of history, and the blood of the tears of rage in solitude against the absurdity of many people's fates.
@@VinceLyle2161 yes exactly that's how I feel too Mozart is a great composer and I enjoy his melodies but when I listen to beethoven I Feel the pain The struggle the rage and anger especially in his 5th and 7th symphonies and in many of his sonatas which go hand and hand with his struggle with his loss of hearing that's how I prefer him
I read that Beethoven suffered from lead poisoning--from the additives to his wine, medications, etc. This ailment wasn't mortal for him but would explain his loss of hearing, his difficulty focusing, his wild mood swings, etc. That makes me wonder how Beethoven would have been different if he were healthy. Would he have conformed to convential form or would he have been the bold innovator we know now? Super interesting.
Beethoven is indeed conducting the Celestial Orchestra - and Bernstein said it correct, B's masterpieces were like phoned in from G-D or Heaven
Bernstein you revealed to us, with your expertise, the secret of Beethoven's immensity. And I, who have been listening to it all my life, really agree with you. Thank you.
For me Beethoven and Bach will Always be the greatest composers for me in the entire history of music
Fascinating!
dude on the right lookin like beethoven in the flesh
Although I understand why he would critique Beethoven the way he does (based on his education and experience), he misses the whole point. You cannot begin to judge his melodies, arrangements, dynamics separately. It like saying a Rolls Royce could have better tires or a faster engine. The WHOLE is ALL that matters. Analyzing the various aspects of Beethoven's process and the elements that make up his compositions is pointless. It is what it is and he is right about one thing...not ONE note could be changed or be different. He was a channel for the infinite consciousness of existence to the human condition and consciousness. Beethoven is like an element. Fire, water, Air Beethoven.
The true embodiment of the universal vibration of music.
Violin Concerto in D major Opus 61 first movement contains one of the simplest but most beautiful melodies written you silly man, Leonard.
Pathetique sonata, Ode to Joy theme, Pastoral Symphony......of course he had a gift for melody.
And what about that amazing and beautiful fugue in the 2nd movement of symphony 3?
Bernstein is just talking through his ass. He is full of it! He wrote absolutely nothing compared to what Beethoven wrote. Everybody knows it's all about the next note. That's what makes the melody.
@@spqr369 the correct term is "condescending baloney". Bernstein is talking a right load of condescending baloney. Bernstein wrote Fancy Free which is also a load of condescending baloney.
Is the melody in question beautiful in isolation or is it beautiful because of its combining with harmony and place in the music?
Just because Leonard Bernstein says it, doesn't mean it isn't condescending baloney.
Nor does it mean it is
Bernstein is full of it!!!
For me Beethoven is an existentialist who does not allow himself hiding from the truth and fate, always seeking a way to confront it. Of course he suffered while composing.
The nonsense that Beethoven wasn’t a great melodist… The Adagio of the Pathetique. The Adagio of the Ninth. The Finale of the Sixth. And so on. These are not great melodies? I’d much rather hear these melodies than Tchaikovsky’s!
Tchaikovsky’s Melodie’s are just as good as Beethoven’s, just in different ways.
Don't forget the Immortal Beloved theme: slow movement of the Emperor Concerto!
He was good at hymn like melodies that have the feeling of a pebble hitting a pond and causing light ripples. But he simply didn't need traditional, long lined melodies for a lot of the pieces he produced.
Bernstein is talking rubbish he must have been senile in this video.
Beethoven is by far the most creative composer of all time.
@@johndean4765 He's not claiming Beethoven is not creative.
This would make sense if Bernstein was drunk while saying it. His examples are extreme, juvenile and not illustrative of everything Beethoven achieved
Bernstein wroten an extended Socratic dialogue about this in the '50s. There's only so much you can show in this short clip but Beethoven preferred short, motivic themes that he could develop.
yeah sure bernie the guy wrote arguably the greatest fugue of all time
You mean BACH xD
@@ZERPENT-OF-GOD which bach fugue?
@@EntelSidious_gamzeylmz The only one that is probably the best ever and only ever was BACH which invented the damn fugue basically.
@@EntelSidious_gamzeylmz Sorry I deleted the last comment I had which is Bach's toccata and fugue in d minor.
@@ZERPENT-OF-GOD that's not his best work at all. Check out fugues from his late period like Ricercare à 6 or the Contrapunctus 14
This explains so much to me. Thanks.
Great piece here. And re: writing a fugue- unlike any JSBach fugue, Ludwig somehow time- traveled beyond "modernism" and wrote the Grosse Fuga opus 133 - an extremely forward facing, much dissonent work that is often a challenge to wrap one's mind around. But, that's art - it's not "entertainment" - art requires *effort* to create - and to appreciate.
Or as LvB himself said, "Es muß sein!"
Genius discussing Genius. I'm lost. And yet ... I get it. I feel it.
very true what he said about the inevitable note.. for example the 2 movement of Eroica.. however, in my opinion, the orchestration there is also unbelievable... how the contrabass is integrated there. When I listen to it I feel as if its strings are inside my body.. and as for the melodies - I don't agree either.. for example the melody in the eighth sonata in the second movement is so moving in its restraint. and I have mamy many more examples...so I am not a musican.. dont even play, but I live in my soul clasical music since I was very little child. So I do not have the knowledge, but I feel I can not agree with what Bernstein said at the begining...
Please note : This overture is based on a FEW CLUES found in the sketches, but it is not a BEETHOVEN's work !
Opinions are like...
Informed opinions are valuable. As these are.
kinda how I feel about David Gilmour...
yeah pretty much. soycd forever
If that thumbnail is not A.I., Eartha Kitt HAS to be a descendant of Beethoven 🤔
An alternative take on Bernstein's remarks: ua-cam.com/video/Mjct5M8JzL4/v-deo.html
Bernstein was straight up hating on Beethoven. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
He didn't have modern day technology that's the only reason he wasn't able to make the impact he could have
He never wrote a good fugue? What about the double fugue in the 2nd movement of his 3rd symphony? It's brilliant.
Is it genius if piecing it together tears you apart?
Depends on whether one's view of genius is based on inborn skill, "god-given" talent if you will, or if the view of genius is based on practice. Personally I don't care for the "god-given" genius idea: there is no genius I know off that didn't work their a** off to be that.
The violinist/composer Sarasate was to have said more or less, "for 37 years I practiced 14 hours a day, now they call me a genius."
And what did Bernstein produced ? Will we know 100 years later who he was ?
Wow wow wow
”fRoM gOd”
Triggered? 😂
@@micoveliki8729 yes
Beethoven was a melodic genius of the highest order. Leonard Bernstein is wrong to denigrate his melodic ability.
I don’t know about other stuff but you find better melody writers than the old Ludwig.
Schubert rivals anyone when it comes to melody.
Beethoven generally preferred short, motivic themes that he could use as building blocks.
@@starsandnightvision True but Schubert's developments are painful, the melodies colapse with every new bar which is tragic because his melodies are brilliant.
@@PeveccDude I think his later works are pretty much perfect,
@@starsandnightvision Haven't listened to his later works, I'll sure give them a try
God, smoking looks so stupid.
He did not "...move because he couldn't find a place he'd find nice". He was just so over the place and got kicked out so many times by the landlord because he didn't manage to pay the rent in time although he was kinda rich.
Generally, that dude is talking A LOT. And he thinks of himself as a big genius point that out. But it's just not on spot what he says about BTHVN music