"Fake" chips?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 12 січ 2020
- Deep dive into the very nerdy world of DIP IC counterfeiting, recycling and remarking with an emphasis on Yamaha 'YM' series of chips.
chipresearch episode 0x05
EDIT Due to the overwhelming complaints about my use of the term '"FAKE", here are a few thoughts:
Mark (Mohammad) Tehranipoor, co-author of the book I based my video on actually describes remarking as counterfeiting:
tehranipoor.ece.ufl.edu/jetta1...
"A counterfeit component (i) is an unauthorized copy; (ii) does not conform to original OCM design, model, and/or performance standards; (iii) is not produced by the OCM or is produced by unauthorized contractors; (iv) is an off specification, defective, or used OCM product sold as “new” or working; or (v) has incorrect or false markings and/or documentation."
Wikipedia: "Counterfeit products are fakes or unauthorized replicas of the real product"
I use the word Fake for remarked chips throughout the video even though I know very well that the majority of those chips were originally made by Yamaha. I do spend 38 showing this! But selling a beat up+recycled chip as new by falsely recreating its markings is faking (which is worse since we are losing precious info on its actual age and revision number).
To spot recycled/remarked chips.
1)Texture must be the same on bottom and top
2)Pins should be straight with no solder or flux traces.
3)Acetone should not alter the chip's surface.
4)Datecode should be in the 80s or 90s (for most DIP YMxxxx chips)
5)Markings should not be laser etched (orange looking) for DIP YMxxxx chips of the 80s
6)Eject holes (really ejector pin marks - thanks) should be shiny for most casing types
Anything else is proof that the chip is not NOS (new old stock)
LGR has made a cool video after watching this one:
• Are these Yamaha sound...
*FAIR USE*
Copyright Disclaimer under section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for “fair use” for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, education and research.
Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.
Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use.
Image/info credits:
nepp.nasa.gov/workshops/etw20...
www.springer.com/gp/book/9783...
www.slideshare.net/cyanarella...
visura.co/loka/stories/ctrl-x-...
/ 877577349989933056
www.scmp.com/news/china/socie...
UA-cam segments:
• Ad-Lib Sound Card for ...
• AdLib Sound Card Over ...
• Exporting Harm: The Hi...
• AdLib Sound Card Over ...
• Ad-Lib Sound Card for ...
• Electronic Components ...
• Counterfeit Electronic...
• Video
• 3 Ways to Tell if a Co...
Music (used with kind permission)
aliceffekt.bandcamp.com/album...
toycompany.bandcamp.com/track...
The only consistent ebay seller that I trust to sell recycled but not remarked chips as of the time of this video (things might change)
www.ebay.ca/str/hifiic
First time I came across remarked chips (yes the Comic Sans ones):
ploguechipsounds.blogspot.com/...
Special thanks to ImATrackMan, Lord Nightmare and Devine Lu Linvega for encouraging me to finish it (its been dragging in my harddrive for nearly 3 years).
Until Next time... - Наука та технологія
Wow, I had no idea there were so many YM chip fakes floating around. Makes sense in hindsight!
Thanks for the video, truly useful stuff 👍
Really glad you enjoyed it! If you ever have deep sound chip questions, do not hesitate to ping me here or on twitter. Cheers!
Somewhere I was watching a chip be x-ray'ed(?) to spot new chip dies, it was fascinating. Not sure if he was you plgDavid, but I watched your video in entirety, and certainly enjoyed it, thank you!
as I suspected, they are refurbished, no one have the technology to produce this legacy ICs
Of course it's only truly a fake if the underlying chip itself is a fake. Taring it and remarking is only somewhat of a fake, more of a deception if you will. Used, abused, tossed around, overheated, etc.
You don't get the internet, do you? He called you out. You were supposed to insult his mother.
I knew fakes were a thing, but I'm really surprised by how common these re-marked chips are. Thanks for sharing!
What you are referring to as "ejector holes" are typically called "ejector pin marks" made by the mold ejector pins as they push the part out of the mold. The "code" markings on the bottom of the chips are usually for manufacturer reference and can be set to anything. Molds wear out, so by putting an identifier mark, they can identify and track mold life. It's also common for identifiers to be put on multi-cavity injection molds, so if there is a defect in one of the cavities they can locate it easily. Still excellent video.
That is the sort of comments I'm looking for! You are in the industry?
@@plgDavid Not really, as a kid many years ago, I spent a summer as a laborer in an injection molding factory. Horrible job, it's hot, wet (large parts need to be put in clamping fixtures and then in cold water baths), itchy (glass fiber filled plastics), toxic (burnt plastic from clogged nozzles makes your eye's water uncontrollably and mold release is an aerosol that for some reason appears to be neutrally buoyant, so it just floats in a cloud around you) and that's on top of the super monotony.
Laborer turn-over rate was 7-working days on average. Most would just walk off the job and the machines don't stop, so there would be a small mountain of plastic parts where they stood. I remember using a snow shovels to clean up messes. We were a small shop with mostly short duration part runs. Sharp's setup would be have been more highly automated I presume.
haha, this reminds me when I worked for a very small military subcontractor who painted reliability bands on resistors when they couldn't get the hi-rel yellowed striped required by the contracts. When they were washed in solvent they disappeared. Right in front of the government inspector.
i see a green version for ESD handmade blackboxes DESTROYER versions or?
Well if you know your products will be used to protect people ,fi, medical, or in military and you are acting like this you really gambling with lives. Only the guillotine will be the place. Bare in mint you are in a plane with those fake parts! Don't tell me it was an order from upperhand. YOU also collaborate. I really can not understand how dumb people can be. The stuff mentioned here in this film is game stuff and as people only desire "original" they get it, no physical harm is done. Thats the difference.
Wow, what a terrible company.
Wow - that's 'go to jail' type stuff they were doing!
for stuff like that, cost should be no object. spare no expense. Penny pinching could literally cost lives.
0:29 - Hey, that's my product! The chips I buy are from a seller in China and are definitely pulled. I take some comfort in the fact that they're not cleaned up very well (pins are bent, dirty, etc), so I hope the puller isn't particularly resourceful. I have gotten some chips that just don't work, but it's probably around 5%. I'd guess that a PSG chip like the 2149 just isn't as lucrative to fake. I have another batch of 20 chips on their way, and I'll take an extra look at them. Really enjoyed the video, particularly talking about the recycle operations. I knew it existed but it was really cool to hear more about it!
Yeah, I talked to Trash80 about it as well afaik? AYs/and 2149 were lucrative to clone in the past, there are quite a few AY-3-8910 clones out there, but the YM2149 needs that extra pin logic so its not a drop in replacement. though AY8930s uses the same logic. You might want to send AY8930 commands just in case :) Extra pulse widths and independent noise on each channel.
Wow, this video brings back memories... Back in the 1990's they had a ton of fake L2 dram chips. (Before it was integrated on the cpu) When I was building PC's I was testing them and discovered many fake chips. I cut some open. They were nothing but blocks of plastic with legs/pin sticking out. LOL. Seems nothing really changes.
The infamous PCChips M919 Socket3 486VIP motherboard...
27:14 you know you're getting cheap stuff when the packaging is that plastic bag used for Korean ramyun noodles. This looks like nongshim shin ramyun packaging.
I like the idea of re-use but be clear about it. Indeed, one doesn't know how much the chip was hammered in prior use, high-temperature and poor anti-static conditions when extracting.
I'm a big fan of reusing the stuff, so personally, I'm very happy that chips are recycled but this should be super clearly disclosed so professionals like You are 100% aware of what You are buying. In the end, money only talks so this won't disappear and fakes will continue. :( Without this video, I wouldn't know. Thank You for this :)
Exactly! I would have no problem buying recycled chips as long as that's what was stated up front.
I agree. I'd gladly use recycled parts as long as I knew up front what I was getting. And the part worked perfectly.
Agreed and I've had to in order to repair old Tektronix scopes which have Tek custom devices in them.
I actually thought that these are repros
kinda cool to know they're the originals just sometimes crappily refurbished
This is an excellent informative video, and one that I hope more subject matter experts start emulating. One of the things I really appreciate is how you show several examples so that, when it's not 100% obvious, the viewer can try to build a "confidence score" to help judge the actual condition.
I see the same thing in my hobby (vintage software collecting), where counterfeit items and even counterfeit *shrinkwrap* can artificially raise the sale value. Thank you for this very detailed comparison.
Re-shrinkwraps are a bane of Vintage Video game collecting yeah. I do collect for some platforms. great parallel.
@@plgDavid I will be creating a video on how to spot re-wraps; I'll make a note to mention it to you once the video is online.
@@JimLeonard Wow, that sounds awesome! I'm definitely going to subscribe to your channel and keep an eye out for that one.
@@JimLeonard Wow, that sounds awesome! I'm definitely going to subscribe to your channel and keep an eye out for that one.
Most of my contributions came as a result of me buying 43 YM2608s/OPNAs from Ebay and AliExpress for development of my MSX OPNA cartridge. I bought three from a seller on ebay, all were sanded, and one was partially non-working. All were laser-etched with a datecode from 2012, and all, curiously, had the die revision marked as M.
The other 40 I bought came from a seller on AliExpress. They had good reviews, most of the buyers were Japanese, and the picture (sadly) was of a beaten-up but legit, non-remarked chip. I ordered 10 at first, all came in, ALL WERE LEGIT, AND ALL WORKED. I cleaned them out after, buying a second batch of 30 more, once again, all were untouched but obviously recycled, some were chipped, some were scratched, I ended up with one having a broken pin, but of the 40 that I bought, only 2 were damaged, and they had the same fault as the one non-working chip as the very first batch of 3 sanded chips. A total loss of 1/3 (33% failure) for the remarks, and 2/40 (5% failure). I got all sorts of date codes, one duplicate, die revisions L, O, and P, but NOT as the first three were marked to say, M or N.
On the subject of the old-style Yamaha datecode:
That was LOTS of fun to figure out. Being able to find that out and get that published on Siliconpr0n's Yamaha vendor page (other things still need to be corrected there), and in this video is really cool to see. Looking at pictures of chips and trying to spot patters like manufacturers, package types, date codes, what different letters and numbers mean is such a fun thing to do. The people who originally thought of these schemes and know what they 100% mean aren't around any more, either at the companies or, sadly, on the planet. Being able to dig up and solve small mysteries like this all in the name of preservation and documentation is one of the most fun and fulfilling things out there, in my opinion.
On the subject of the remarked EPROMS, I actually had 10, not 1. I bought a batch of 10 27C801s on ebay. Large EPROMs are useful and expensive, and while I may not need them now, who knows? I got them in and they were all marked exactly the same, and like you saw on yours, they all had brand new pins, slightly tarnished, factory straight. All were also blank after being read. EVERY SINGLE ONE could be cleaned, and not with acetone, but plain 91% IPA. The most amusing part is that THREE were remarked TWICE. After being cleaned, Three had the exact same marking, in the exact same place underneath, laser etched into the ceramic. That's something that I've never heard of or seen, but is apparently possible and very scary:
There is a possibility that any chip you buy might not be re-marked just once, but twice.
HUGE ANIME BREASTS
@@KokoroKatsura Love em, what about em?
In 2000? I was removing a friend Intel Pentium 100 chip from his computer and when we were detaching the heatsink ceramic paint came off the top of the chip showing another date code and the fact it was once a Pentium 75!
That is quite early!
That's not the same thing....Back then, uPCs got tested for spec at the rated frequency. Some of them met spec at an even higher frequency without problems. Some of those uPCs then got re-marked with the higher rating....
I actually heard back in the 90s' independent computer shops would sell overclocked computer as the real thing. Essentially selling computer with Pentium 100 overclocked to 120MHz as Pentium 120 gaming computer. The heatsink were glued on so impossible for regular people to tell
Yep. Solder pulls. Heated with a blowtorch and dropped out. Re-stenciled. Pins bent back out at a splayed angle, and re-tinned. But for stuff such as 74C915, a rare hen's tooth,
these Chinese solder pulls are the only game in town. It's a good thing these ics were so over-designed, because these animals heat them way beyond any temperature
they were ever meant to endure. Then you get these off of Ebay and only maybe 80% test good. We are damn lucky to have access to them at all.
I don’t know who you are, or how I was recommended this video, I’ve no interest in Audio Electronics, but that was the most interesting 40mins of random UA-cam recommendations in a long time 😃
That made my day, thanks!
I am researching this for two weeks now. Thanks for uploading and clarifying
Such a great IC-docu, thanks for doing this plgDavid!!
Interesting video. I used to work in the semiconductor industry. I have seen a case where a customer sent in a complaint about our chip and it turned out to be a counterfeit chip. That was an interesting situation, at that time.
I have one detailed comment: at about 15 minutes in the video you explain the date code. And mention that the chip was "fabricated" on that date/week. The entire manufacturing process, starting from a silicon wafer, takes multiple weeks. The date code as printed on the package is the assembly date code. The chip inside could have been manufactured quite long before that and have been stored before being assembled.
Nothing beats comments from actual specialists! Would love to know in your experience are the wafers usually done in the same plant as the molding/assembly or its unrelated? The wafers need to stay in dust/hair/temp controlled env and shipping them out makes little sense right?
@@plgDavid Oh no, the entire manufacturing process is most certainly not done in the same factory, on the same physical location. I guess (but didn't check) that semiconductor manufacturers have promotional videos on their website where they explain the entire manufacturing process. Those videos explain the whole process better than a UA-cam comment box allows (Edit: I found an example video here: ua-cam.com/video/M-wNC3Z3ZX4/v-deo.html ). Often the entire process can be split into four main parts: (1) get the electronic circuit in the wafers by using e.g. chemical etching and electronic implanting technologies, (2) test each circuit on the wafer and separate into individual dies, (3) put the dies which passed testing into a package (e.g. DIL, SO, BGA, ...), (4) test the assembled product. For logistical purposes do semiconductor manufacturers hold a stock of wafers, either after step (1) or (2). And they hold a stock of final products. Step (1) needs to be done in a clean room to avoid contaminations and to get the manufacturing yield up. The more advanced wafer fabs tend to be in Western countries, whereas Asian countries (e.g. China) have wafer factories which are a few generations behind. Assembly and testing of chips is most often been done in Asian countries (e.g. China, Thailand, Malaysia, etc.).
@@windmill1965 Thank you very much for all those details!
@@plgDavid AMD CPUs often say (or used to say) things like "MADE IN USA DIFFUSED IN SINGAPORE"
@@simonlyons5681 Exactly; CPUs are famous for going around the world several times, every step is performed by the lowest-paid workforce capable of the required quality standards. You'd have the optical transfer to wafer done in Germany (needs precision) and the pins would be soldered on in some hellhole in Malaysia. I was also told by a professor that the silicon crystal seeds are imported expensive, then grown into ingots (?) in medium-standard countries.
It’s certainly comforting that the guy that was making some good bucks at home (granted with some unhealthy practices) is now the employee of multi billion corporation that as a middle man will rip the little guys off as well as hobbyists buying this stuff! Thank you for the video!
This explains a lot! I have a few customers with cheep audio equipment and CRT rear screen projectors containing STK power chips. They seem to last a year or so then they end up back on my bench with the same chip failure. As far as the audio equipment these these LSICs usually barely or do not meet spec. I have not taken the time to design a test for the convergence chips. All replacements were dirt cheep on eBay or Amazon! I will ask the seller some pointed questions before purchasing them in the future. Thank You
What you are talking about is FAKE chips. The Yamaha chips in this video are not fake.
I don't know why youtube recommended me this, or who you are, but when I see a man, who is so deep into topic, that he have a book "Counterfeit chips" I put a like. (Probably recommended because I watch LGR now and then)
Counterfeit IC and Yahama FM chips are two item of interest of mine, so I was waiting for this video; it doesn't disappoint. Thanks David for taking your time to share your knowledge and expertise on this matter !
Thanks! Really had to kick myself for finishing it.
@@plgDavid Procrastination is a beach (with a T)
Part of me is very sad to think of all those old (probably working) Sound Blasters being scrapped - I'd gladly buy the whole card!
Vink Same
Wow, you put an ENORMOUS amount of work into making this video. I can't imagine the thousands of hours of experience, the inordinate number of orders, and just general expertise in a very specialized field that went into producing something like this. You sir, are a scholar and a gentlemen for sharing such knowledge with the world. I hope all the expertise and hours help in building your reputation and business. THANK YOU!
This made my day, thank you so much! And great name too. I'm 46 but I still skate :)
@@plgDavid I meant it! The internet with it's open-source/hacker/builder/creator/etc community never ceases to amaze me. People such as yourself who offer up their time, knowledge, experience, and expertise for essentially nothing but the satisfaction of sharing it with others are what makes these communities such awesome places to be apart of. No one shares this type of info/content for the pennies (if you're lucky) that UA-cam might give you if they decide that talking about this isn't a "sensitive topic". I'm glad you saw my comment as you definitely deserve more gratitude than I'm sure you receive! I'm still in my early 30's and though I still skate a bit, all those years of throwing myself down flights of stairs and handrails definitely gave me "old man knees" much too early in life 😁 I do much more reversing (I'm a reverse code engineer) and programming these days than I do skateboarding, but I will certainly be skating for as long as my poor, abused body will allow me to! Love your content man. Keep up the great work!
our factory in China returns on average 20-30% of the parts because they fail pre-production quality control. We have had cases of something getting through with the result being the product when used in low power situations "fails". In that case it was a fake Motorola 4011 logic chip, everything seems to work but I found when the VCC rail had a low voltage (but still within spec) it would cause a .5 volt logic output error. On closer inspection the 4011 chip looked exactly the same as the real deal. When I put it under a microscope I noticed the Motorola logo was poorly done and nothing like the original.
Damn! I didn't think they would fake even such mundane ICs as CMOS or TTL 'glue logic'.
Why don't they just sell them as reclaimed/re-cycled? we know they aren't being made anymore.. they are legacy chips.. just sell them with the damn scuffs... it's not a problem as long as it's electronically sound! (Pun intended)
Retro hobbyists aren't the main market. They sell to people like military contractors who need new, recently-dated chips which haven't been made in years.
But do you think military contractors let themselves be deceived that easily? I can't believe that especially when even hobbyists like plgDavid investigate and find out.
@@armorgeddon its about the specifications, they don't care if they're old, they just need them to say they're new so they meet 'military grade' and then they can sell them. that's my understanding anyway. it's an everyone benefits kinda deal...aside from hobbyists trying to buy the best chips they can i guess.
@@dextrodemon Makes no sense unless they hope to ask higher price for unused stock.
True military application typically require a legitimate supply chain for the lifetime of the device. Also what do they supposedly use it in the military for?
@@misium there are plenty of horror story like this one www.theregister.co.uk/2019/02/05/us_counterfeit_chips/
Very familiar. This is very well known to be done with certain transistors. All if a sudden we had whole batches failing. It really baffled us because they were just measuring just fine. It became really clear when we decapped a couple. The little metal slug (for transferring the heat) was just half the size of the original. Therefore the transistors were just basically overheating. This was even from a known seller/distributor.
It's fun to think about how far some of these chips traveled. They were presumably manufactured in Japan, maybe then shipped to China for the assembly of the original product, then maybe sold to the US, then disposed of decades later in an electronics recycling collection, from where it was shipped back to China, where it was then salvaged and relabelled to then be shipped back to the west.
I wish the whole recycling process could be done locally in an honest manner, but I guess labour costs are too high in the west.
If they could talk..... man.....
Oh man yeah, it is crazy actually. I think labor costs are really the trouble indeed, and HSE guidelines and environmental stuff. In China they just do it while here we have all the extra rules and high labor which makes the recycling not profitable.
@Fratti
In the 80s and early 90s the original boards would have been assembled in Japan, the US, the UK, Korea, or maybe Taiwan for the more budget items.
China didnt do a lot of name brand electronics manufacturing back then.
At that time, China's light industry was not developed, so at that time printed With “JAPAN” chips are made of Japanese.
Or back to Japan. Maybe through th same seaport.
This video was captivating. Thanks for all the effort.
This is brilliant information. I really appreciate you taking so much time to detail everything for us viewers. I really learned a lot!
Excellent. The 6532 RIOT chip market is seeing a crapton of this going on as well. It's a PITA, and there's no community FPGA solution for to replace them, so we spend and cross fingers.
I'm only 5 minutes in to this video, but it's fascinating so far. Thanks!
First letter in the 4 letter lot code on later markings shows the chip manfacturer. G is Hitachi for example. But yeah, laser marking never appeared on anyone but NEC's chips at least in 90's and NEC didn't produce the FM chips for Yamaha (though they did other sort of chips). NEC always has a distinct font as does Fujitsu and some others. I hope that with this video and general awareness makes the sellers realize that original state is always better than a remark and other concealment methods.
This right here. This is how you make informative videos. I watched every second, and I learned so many things.
Very fun to watch, and I'll be super careful in my projects as well, I believe my OPL2LPT has a remarked chip in it. Sounds perfect so I'll keep it, but I would have preferred to have the original markings. Also of note, the earliest 3812 I've encountered (on an original AdLib prototype) had the old style marking 72 06 77 B on it!
Thanks for enlightening me as to what it meant; I originally wondered if the chip had been made in the 70s, which felt absurd!
Un abonnement bien mérité. J'attends déjà vos prochaines vidéos!
Merci beaucoup! Wow. this made my day. My early Ad Lib (serial 19792) has dremelled 3812 so can't see the date either! twitter.com/plgDavid/status/1222515025518252038?s=20 Would love to see a picture of your card!
Thank you for this video, David. Fantastic information.
This video is fantastic! I didn't know of this subject or any of the connected details.
This is great! I come across these fake chips ALL the time. Once you learn how to spot the tell-tale signs, you can find re-badges and fakes in UA-cam videos everywhere. They always screw up the fonts and date codes!
Your video inspired me to do a little fake sleuthing as well. I decided to see if I could find out what my fake YM2612's really were. Just thought you might be interested in this!
www.aidanlawrence.com/the-fake-ym2612-mystery-game/
Thanks again for the video!
From a molding perspective the letters and numbers on the ejector are usually to help identify the cavity number after the molding process it also helps when rebuilding the mold. You want too make sure the same ejector pin goes in the same location, it's also a standard from particular mold builders or molding shops.
This certainly has my admiration. That's high level research! Namasté
You're doing good work my dude, keep it up! Someone has to do it!
Someone should write code for a common chip tester to distinguish and test these FM chips, allowing any serious hobbyist or reseller to sort incoming chips into fakes, relabels, dead chips and good old stock.
Great video and great research. Lots of time and good work required. I know because I've done things like this. Thank you for sharing!
Super interesting video. You've laid out really clearly something that I had sort of suspected but not been able to articulate clearly. Now I have a better understanding of some of the "special finds" I've come across on ebay.
They should definitely be remarked as recycled. The lifetime of the part is a function of how long it has been powered on. People should know upfront if the part has been used.
Eugh... I know that where there's demand, supply will follow, but just... don't sell crap like this to people who don't know any better. Sell 'em as recycled or "refurbished" cause I for one would rather gamble on recycled chip than have none at all. Just don't put duct tape on a Rolex and tell me it's brand new =/
your comment will inspire exactly 0 of them to change their behaviour. In fact this video has probably made a few people realize they could make money selling counterfeit chips.
Btw you have the same joy as i do when i handle retro ics. They are a thing of beauty indeed.
Great video! Ran into lots of blacktopped ICs when buying off eBay for my YM2149 sound card for the RC2014. Managed to find one eBay seller who could get me non-blacktopped ones after sending over pictures of what I was after.
At 1:07 on the right side page "This report states that the majority of counterfeit incidents were reported by US-based military bodies and electronic firms from the aerospace industry." That is a scary statement. That means counterfeit chips could be putting peoples lives at risk.
Yes indeed! There is little risk with synthesizer projects, but medical/military/transportation ... its really scary!
This is an amazing video and a great service to the retro-computing community.
Concerning the ST M27C160, the reason for rebranding is not to have similar products and date codes. The main reason is because the chips were made before 2004, before the enactment of RoHS regulations. The purpose of the rebranding is essentially to pass what's now considered toxic trash as good lead-free chips. They make a fortune selling stuff that's supposed to be considered worthless. I bought a bunch of M27C160 myself and about 35% were defect no matter where I sourced them as the real ones are discontinued. They usually come from the millions of Mah-jong and other arcade machines popular in Asia and now obsolete.
@@francoisleveille409 That's a piece of info I haven't heard before, makes a lot of sense!
This was a really good video
Great video! I've had to buy from Hiific and a few others before... it's hit or miss, but most of the time they are the only ones selling what I need.
David, I really enjoyed the video. Looking at your other videos I think you have a really good channel going here. Look forward to seeing more content.
Thanks! Doing my best to release more than 2 videos a year is proving to be challenge though. Cheers
This would be talk worthy topic at Chaos Communication Congress or similar event!
The numbers and letters in the ejector pin recesses are identification for where they belong in the mold. And could also identify the cavity it came from if there are problems with the molding process.
Thats actually something new! (the where they belong in the mold part). Thanks!
Quickly scanned my stash of Chinese-sourced OPL-2s, all different, thankfully. I test them before soldering but you gave some good tips.
How much more expensive would a socket be? They even sometimes socket opamps in nicer audio equipment. Please do it if there's even a chance of the chip going bad or gaining on value.
I remember running into fake chips back in the late 90's when I work fro a PCB contract manufacture. They were called "shaved ICs" then. One fake Ic was interesting in our x-ray machine you could see the internals were different. (The ic was an amp and was no longer mad, the board had to get a redesign)
Interesting thing even with a legit similar spec IC was would it not run right when being used, diagnostic testing said good. but when system started running it would stop
Thanks for publishing this video and share your knowledge. I've been recently in the research of a MOS 6510 CPU and I have found out that at least two AliExpress / Ebay sellers do sell the same counterfeit ICs. Those are very easy to spot as the surface had been sanded down and the date code of the chips were 2010! :D . Whereas one seller did automatically the refund, the other tried to excuse on the fact that they were sold by large distributors and offered a 50% refund. Obviosuly I had opened a dispute and provided the evidences and got the refund. The most scary part was having to plug in that device on my C64 and prove that it did not work. I have never exposed the die of any chip, but I would have loved to know what was that crap really.
Destroying a machine by putting a bad component in is much worse indeed.
I learned about this the hard way when I ordered a bunch of EPROMs off E-bay that were relabeled.
I was supposed to get ST Micro CMOS 150ns access EPROMs and I ended up with National Semiconductor 200ns NMOS (older technology) EPROMs. I was able to tell because they did a poor job repainting some of the ceramic tops and the older National Semi logo was showing through on some of them.
Another giveaway was many EPROMs have two unerasable bytes that identify the manufacturer (byte 1) AND the device code (byte 2) many programmers can read these bytes and decode them for you. If by some chance the programmer can't it will usually read back the two bytes as hex values which you can decode yourself by looking at manufacturer datasheets.
It was originally used by EPROM programmers to auto identify the chip manufacturer and part number to make programming faster but now it is an excellent way to detect counterfeits :-).
They worked fine (only one of them was a dud) and the access time difference wasn't a big deal for my application but they did draw extra current in the circuit due to the older NMOS technology they used.
Super interessant! Merci d’avoir partagé tes recherches!
Avec plaisir!
good video! i've been working on a guide on identifying fake YM2612s specifically, and it's all based on the package type (particularly ejector pin marks). i've found that getting non-remarked chips is rare at this point, unlike a few years ago, and some chinese ebay sellers are now starting to supply completely fake chips, but luckily they can be spotted easily by the package. there's a die inside, but no idea what it is, certainly not an OPN2...
Awesome! I would be curious in looking at this guide when it is out.
especially stupid to put blacktop on top of a ceramic DIL package as in the case of the EPROM - since these are never black from the factory...
But you could relabel it as a faster speed grade (lower access time) which might be more desirable. I didn't quite catch if that was the case with the EPROM in this video, but if they simply remarked it with the same info then yes, definitely stupid.
@@TomStorey96 also stupid because everyone should be able to spot the modification since ceramic packages never have a black plastic coating...
@@TomStorey96 A mil contractor has a qpl drawing and would normally reject a shipment of equivalent or "faster" chips. Even a mischievous prime chip vendor that has a blind process improvement change causes problems. An identical faster chip means evaluating where used and possible board redesigns to tame a faster leading edge etc.
@@anullhandle Sure, but thats why I said "might". To a hobbyist, a device with a faster access time or higher operating speed might be more desirable, but will come crashing down because the parts were rebadged as something they arent. A military contractor probably isnt going to be buying parts from AliExpress...
@Zero Cool stupid in a way that any half-way experienced person will immediately spot the fake!
Wow, thanks for wonderful explanation 👌🏻👌🏻.
I've learnt some new things from this - and I thought I already knew a LOT of things on this subject!
Keep up the fantastic work!
31:30-31:45 "Look Mom, I'm fake" - yeah, that had me laughing, but yeah, pretty informative video
Very interesting, thanks a lot for making this!
Hey thanks! Big fan of your work!
Thanks for putting the time in
Highly interesting. I do appreciate what you do with plogue...
At 36:20 m"...the best thing would be to ship an extra chip..." Yup! I always order 50% more parts than I need. Saved many a project that way.
Parts that are remarked to make them look new still fit the definition of "counterfeit". It is a purposeful misrepresentation of the actual part. As long as you know you are buying a potential fake part then pay accordingly.
Excellent video thank you for sharing!
Really interesting video and it looks like you have bunch more I'll like.
I was not expecting the dive into chinese remanafacturing culture. Eye opening seeing how those guys are making a living.
Report those vendors to Ebay. If people report them, they may be banned.
They will pop up again using a different seller name. When you can by new.
About 6 years ago, I was talking to a man from Ireland. He said he built high end conservatories. Some of them had swimming pools inside them and he needed high quality stainless steel beams. He was buying them from China. He said the quality was A1 while he was there. If he went they shipped him what he required but if he ordered it from home it was a different matter and the steel was unusable. He was at a loss to explain it. He said it cost them more, because he just sent it back. He said that they were strange people who seemed to always be moving home. Always on the roads with all their belongings? They seem to like gambling. Maybe they just like to get away with things?
All that being said, there is a lot of forced labour being used. I try to source from Europe or America, if at all possible. I now refuse to buy really cheap goods ever since the notes were found in the pockets of jeans (imported from China) that complained of slave labour.
Considering in the days of the 286 there were motherboard manufacturers making use of full on fake cache chips (just bits of plastic with pins)...I'm not surprised to see fake/refurbished chips still being easily obtainable.
I prefer checking the resistances between GND and VCC, if you have another good part you can compare resistances,
After this checking with an oscilloscope the chip pins if they have the correct outputs, if you have another good part you can compare the signals, if you don't consult the chip datasheet.
Yeah I do this and also using diode check
Thanks for the cool video! What you're doing on a chip level is kind of what I'm doing on a firmware/gadget level, facing lots of different interesting things, sometimes surprising, sometimes smart. :) Keep it up! \o/
Lol, this reminds me of the late sixties when battery powered radios and walkie-talkies were marketed by how many transistors they had. This was because transistors were relatively new and replacing tubes. Sears actually sold a walkie-talkie advertising that it had 12 transistors. Six of these transistors were not even connected to the circuit.
Thank you very much for sharing this information! I used to buy a lot of simple IC's on Ebay, but not anymore, apart from samples for testing. When I received fake LM358's a while ago, I had to give up on Chinese sellers on Ebay. It seems to still be possible to safely buy components from most US and European sellers, but I am not sophisticated enough to test all my semiconductor components. So, I prefer to buy from Mouser when I can.
I think the Chinese state is shooting itself seriously in its own feet by allowing this kind of swindle. Let us hope they wake up soon, and weed out those sellers that systematically sell fakes, and even better, ban the production of fakes completely. In the meantime all Western consumers should stop buying from sellers who consciously continue to sell fakes, even after having been warned.
Buying from reputable brokers like Mouser/Digikey, etc is all fine and good when they have the parts. But when we are talking vintage/obsolete stuff, secondary sources are all thats left. And its a jungle.
The first ICs I bought a few years ago were in a Radioshack kit I picked up surplus locally. The chips were 7400/4000 logic, but clearly counterfeit. The printing on them would wipe off very easily if my fingers were the least bit oily. Like if I touched my face and then inserted a chip, the printing would rub right off. Some didn't even have etching underneath the printing. I also got a different brand transistor kit on amazon with different jellybean transistors and when I opened up one of the 3055s, it was just a blob of epoxy over a die. Whereas the real chips had the die bare and readibly visible. Worst of all though, were some 74hc595 shift registers I bought on Ali Express. The Texas Instruments chips had a picture of the United States for the logo, rather than a picture of Texas as anyone with half a brain would know lol.
I've gotta say though, even though it seems the majority of the chips I bought from AliExpress are fakes, I never would have suspected it unless I knew what to look for. In terms of function, they work just fine. I don't have time to characterize every chip I have, but the few I have characterized propogation delay on were within spec. But I realize there's a lot more to it than that. So maybe one day I'll go through a sleeve of those 595s and do a bit more thorough characterization.
I love the video. Learned a lot. Thank you.
Supercool vid buddy, keep 'em coming! Cheers.
Will do old friend! Thank you so much!
Interesting video with lots of details. Thanks! Some time ago I received some fake relasered Atmel ATtiny44A chips that probably contained some totally different chip. I made a video about them which you can find on my channel. As you can see the filing of the top was quite crude and not even level, perhaps to get rid of some deeper some details.
This is really fascinating
Thanks for making this video man!
These counterfeit chips should be marked with "D" for 10 years of Doom and "H" for Heretic.
Your comment should be marked D for dumbass.
There aren't any counterfeit chips shown in this video. They are all genuine, original chips.
Some may call them reused, I call them "pre-tested"...
yes, I'm showing myself out :D
@@johncoops6897 he never said the ones in this video just counterfeit ones should be called that
@@ducksonplays4190 - you seemed to have missed the first word in the original comment. He said " *THESE* counterfeit chips..."
He was talking about chips in general
Knew a guy once who did destructive forensic identification of chips by dissolving the body and actually looking at the chip at die level. He was making good money keeping up with total fakes for big users. I don't mean right chip refinished he kept finding wrong die right label.
This is basically why I don't buy from eBay or Ali. Especially after Adrian Blacks encounter with fake SRAMs. All for what, to save a couple of dollars?
I'll just pay a tiny bit extra to buy from reputable sources and spend less time troubleshooting problems.
Plus some of the reputable sources can ship faster than eBay or Ali sellers anyway, e.g. RS can ship to me next day.
33:21 it literally hurts me seeing those chips get unwrapped from packaging foil, lots of ESD going into those poor chips
ESD is the least of their worries with the crude recycling they suffered, but I agree
But are they cmos? If not ESD wont break them...
@@plgDavid so what is about whether these are operational?
@@MacIn173 false representation and the potential latent defects of being treated like hell.
YM2612s aren't CMOS from what I remember
I think that YM3438s had a CMOS variant
Counterfeit market is a big problem in these days.
I buy only in thrusted sellers like Digikey, Newark or Mouser.
I buy in two chinese thrusted sellers also.
Best Regards.
35 seconds in, that is a remarked chip. It was sanded, painted black and a number imprinted on it. I used distribute IC's and developed my QC department. Buy 2004 I had to fail 4 out of 5 orders of parts coming in.
"Fake" and "counterfeit" are industry's attempts to relabel "gray market" or "aftermarket" parts. It is not the reuse which is illegal or environmentally harmful (in fact, it's a WIN for the environment to extend product life, Guiyu got a major bad rap on that). It is mislabelling - if it occurs - which is the "black market" activity. Gray market is a much more subtle term than "fake" or "counterfeit".
It's a possibility that the letter and numbers on the underside are the injection mold IDs. The molds have a finite duty cycle and these kind of codes are used to identify molds that are at end of life in quality control stage. For example a batch might come through where the notches in the mold are starting to round which can be seen on physical inspection. The mold needing retooling can be identified by its number code.
Yes. Just wish I had the actual meaning of those. the only thing that we can figure out out of this, is oh this looks like this or that manufacturer's mold codes.
If they're faking the same code on all of the reprints, why don't we just start going after chips made in week, say, 56 to make them fake that?
That way, a chip with datecode xx56 is automatically known to be a resurfaced chip
We could start with making an high value auction on eBay with 1000 * [4076] IC's from week 9556 to see if it works
The sheer amount of counterfeit C64 SID chips alone out there is enough to make your head spin
I remember something similar from years ago. Sony had a silicon controlled switch, part number SG-613. Some bad batches were rejected, only to end up on the discount market. These were installed and promptly failed, occasionally taking out other components and making for a much more expensive repair.
i like how happy he is to get old stuff
Thank you very much for the video! I was totally surpised when I tried to use DRAM chips which was bought on eBay by me and neither was working from the 40 chips. Maybe it would be a good idea to collect sellers on eBay who are selling fakes. Seller in my case who was selling fakes: "huayi-components". Avoid this eBay seller!
here from lgr, incredibly fascinating yet eye opening video. subscribed.
Wish they'd just recycle them back in and not relabel. No problem with properly recycled electronics as long as everyone knows what they're getting. Saves on waste.
Wow, really good video, thank you and you have a subscriber here, sir.