My mom went a cruise with her family on the Viking Sally (M/S Estonia) in the late 1980’s. There was this kinda famous artist performing on the main stage (can’t remember his name) Anyways my grandma had mentioned to my mom that she thought he was ”slimey” Y’know, corny and stuff. Anyways my mom being the small child that she was, took that literally, and was determined to see for herself. So she got some flowers, walked up to him and gave them to him. He thanked her and gave her a hug in return. Mom comes up running to grandma and exclaims ”He wasn’t slimey!”🤣
Ooooh, Estonia! Very cool to see you talk about this ship, I'm from Sweden and here it's pretty much just Titanic and Estonia (and Vasa) that are the main sinking disasters that are in popular knowledge, so it's cool to see her discussed internationally as well!
Fun fact, she had a couple of names throughout her career. She started out as the Viking-Sally for the Viking Line before being renamed the Silja-Star for the Silja Lines, Wasa King for the Wasa-Lines and finally Estonia for Estline.
Now, technically speaking the Estonia wasn't a ship. These are ferries, and unlike ships, ferries aren't particularly seaworthy in comparison. Then again, neither are those silly looking cruise ships even though they are nominally ships but lack sufficient freeboard.
M/S Estonia was a messy story. Almost 850 Swedes drowned. I remember being 9 years old in 1994 waking up 7 in the morning to watch Disneymovies on Swedish TV just to be met by a board bulletin with text. Irritated i woke up my parents and told them a ship had sunk. They didnt believe me first but once they put on the TV it was clear. That day it was all about the accident and i remember how angry i was that there was no cartoons shown on the TV.
Not 850 swedes. Around 500 were swedes. 200 something were estonians and 150 people were of various other nationalities such as finnish, Danish english and even 1 or 2 People from Nigeria if i remember correctly.
I'm older than you and for me it was the Palme Murder so they cancelled Woody Woodpecker on Go'morron Sverige. I'm still upset about this ! Cartoons where rare in the 80's when everyone working in SVT was a communist.
Early in the morning of Wed, 28 September 1994, I woke up to helicopters hovering over the house I lived in in Turku (Finland). Much to my surprise, one had Swedish markings and it was trying to land at the local hospital (TYKS). Opening the TV I learned that a "ferry had experienced and accident" and thought they might be bringing some patients for care. As the morning advanced, the full scale of the disaster started to dawn. Much respect to the rescuers and my deepest condolences to those who lost loved ones. ❤
I remember being in Turku university hospital dentist (the round building) on the morning of Estonia disaster and while I was being tortured on the dentists chair I watched through the window as helicopters landed one after the another bringing in survivors and a lots and lots of body bags. Helipad was about 100 meters from where I sat on the second floor, it was a somber sight, there weren't many survivors at this point 😔 Rest in peace to all of the victims of Estonia and my condolences to the victims families.
I'm Finnish too and i had just recently started my military service at the time. It was the first night we spent out of barracks in tents somewhere in the woods of Eastern Finland. The weather was not nice, rained so much and we got hardly any sleep all night. In the morning an army truck driver said he heard on radio of a ship disaster in Bay of Finland. We were so exhausted at the moment that i couldn't really process the information and it was vague info anyway at that point. Later that day when we dried up back in the barracks we started to realize what had happened. It's definitely one of the collective flashbulb memories for people around here...everyone remembers it vividly and it touched us deeply, still does, even though there weren't many Finns aboard. But our ships, Silja Line and Viking Line were there leading the rescue operation and most survivors (and bodies) were brought to Finland. Bless the souls who were lost 💙
I'm Estonian and I was a teenager when the Estonia sank. In addition to just the overall shock of it, there was a personal connection - my mother travelled to Sweden around that time and I wasn't sure what ship she was on. Luckily she wasn't on the Estonia and her trip started the following morning. She told me afterwards that they did stop at the Estonia's sinking location and her ship took part in the rescue efforts.
The opening line of this made me chuckle "Ships are, and this may surprise you, very big" Just the kind of information I come to this channel for, my friend, Mike Brady 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I worked on the Belfast to Scotland route on a ro-ro ferry for over four years. I can tell you of the furoristy of the weather is so very humbling even on a large well built ship. But thanks to the lessons learnt from the Estonia and Herald of Free Enterprise I never once felt the ship would succumb to the sea.
only ro-ro I've ever been on never left Puget Sound. That model wasn't even operated in stormy weather. Seemingly in large part due to not actually having a full door.
5:52 As some in a Discord server I was part of call her "the Stalker of the Atlantic", Olympic ALWAYS turns up near the ship or object in focus. I dunno how this happens, but it’s just too funny.
Unsurprisingly, it's a name the Royal navy has used many times and, because of Games Workshop has even earned the unofficial motto "Even In Death I Still Serve"
I am extremely impressed by the sheer force of will and restraint you've shown in talking about accidents with Ro-Ro ships and not calling them "Roll-on, Roll-over's" even once. Truly the trained human mind in action is a marvel to behold!
In Ontario, Canada there has been a Ro-Ro ferry service from Tobermory and South Bay Mouth on Manitoulin Island. A second Ro-Ro joined the service. The first, Chi Cheemaun, has had a long, illustrious career. The channel she crosses is wide. The trip is about 90 minutes each way. The current and condition can be quite something. The bow does lift. It is quite the little trip.
@@michaeltutty1540 Not sure why you chose to reply to my sarcastic little comment but it brought a wry smile to my face to learn that Chi Cheemaun translates to Big Canoe. This is what we here in the Netherlands would call: "de goden verzoeken" (tempting the gods). I did have an enjoyable 15 minutes looking up the ship, the route and the surrounding geography. Is the ship still painted like that? It looks good. Maybe the spirits are a counter to the above. 😁 Love from the Netherlands. (And if you're Canadian even more love, we haven't forgotten what you did for us Canada.)
@@exharkhun5605yes, it is still painted that way! I went on a trip on that ferry this summer. It’s a nice ship, I liked seeing all of the graffiti on the railings from the 1990s schoolchildren. The trip it takes through Lake Huron is beautiful too, many islands
Estonia's bow ramp was kind of designed to fail together with the bow visor. It was too long to just close the hole when lifted up. Part of it went higher than the deck on top and was covered by a "hump" in the top of the visor. So when the visor broke off, it hung from the ramp and the ramp wasn't designed to carry such a load, so the falling visor pulled the ramp open. I have traveled on that ship. Back when its name was Viking Sally and it was running between Finland and Sweden. And it was not the only sunk ship that I have been a passenger on. The other one was Viking Saga, later named Sally Albatross. A navigation error brought it to too shallow water and it contacted the rocky sea bottom and started taking in water to too many compartments Titanic style. Its crew was able to beach it and prevent if from sinking completely so there was no loss of life. Even lifeboats were not needed because people could simply walk out of the ship onto the sea ice. It sat half sunken there for weeks but was eventually raised, repaired and returned to service.
sounds like that ship should have had some kind of switch that would have opened if the visor was not tightly closed and trigger a master caution on the helm(or whatever the boat term is for the primary "Oh Shit" alarm).
@@filanfyretracker There was such an alarm but only with a light (no sound) and it wasn't very well placed on the bridge so it's not certain that they observed the alarm at all. Further, there seems to have been uncertainty about such a basic thing as if green or red means open. It was different for different doors, green for open on some and red for open on others. Not a good design.
The Viking Saga was a disaster in general, having had multiple fires onboard, having to make very big rebuild due to them, ones that go as far as to make the ship class as a totally different ship
Yes!! Very happy to see you mention this disaster. It's frankly a little strange how under the radar the sinking of M/S Estonia flies, internationally speaking. I'm from Finland and for Estonians, Swedes and us it's been a lifelong search for answers. Would love a longer video on the topic.
I am just happy that MS Estonia was mentioned on this channel. I hope there will be more of Estonia and Baltic Sea . And also, hello from your Estonian 🇪🇪 subscriber 😁
Family members missed the "Herald Of Free Enterprise" by 20 minutes due to an - in first sight - unfortunate traffic jam on the way to Zeebrugge. We - at home - knew that they intended to be on that ship when the news from its capsizing came in. But fortunately we got a call that they missed the ship and were now standing in awe in the harbour with the rescue operations on the way. Sometimes bad luck turns into good luck ... Only sometimes.
It was neat to see the "Badger" , a Lake Michigan ferry originally built to haul railroad cars from Mamitowoc, Wis, to Ludington, Mich. It now runs that route with passenger cars, semi trucks, and passengers. I rode that trip a few times, very nice!
I took a trip on the Badger many years ago when I was a teen with my family. We went across the Lake from Michigan for a vacation to the Wisconsin Dells. It was a treat to see the ship make an appearance in this video!
I read with the herald of free enterprise that it was made worse that they had not emptied the ballast tanks after loading the top car deck. Doing so would have meant the open door would have been higher, meaning in theory that even though the door was open, providing the sea was calm they would have been OK. As they hadn't emptied the ballast tanks that hole was a lot lower in the water. Loved this video as always.
It baffles me, that the ships designers never thought about that. You could easily make alarms scream without stop, disengage the engines, when the ramp is open, or even put water sensors into the ship, that automatically close and check the doors of the ferry. As a software engineer, I am a bit out of words, that they have no idiot support build in what so ever... Always, really always think about the most stupid stuff the user can do or happen randomly :D shit happens all the time and in that case, people die if it does... The ramp is open and the ship happily sails onto the ocean is one of the first, that comes to mind...
@dag1704 I mean yeah! Even something that told them of by the way the ballast tanks are full. I mean I know this was the 80s but even liners like the lusitania and titanic had automatic doors in the necessary areas.
@@dag1704 From what I remember, with the Herald there were actually sensors for the open door but either there was no one at the station where they raised an alarm, or they were never armed because that happened when the door closure was triggered, and they never actually triggered the closing procedure. Something like that, it's been years since I saw a long documentary on the Herald. But long story short, there were sensors that turned out useless because of human error.
@@baktru As I recall, the person responsible for closing the doors was asleep in his cabin, and nobody noticed that he wasn't at his station when the ship sailed. It seems that whatever warning system was fitted, there was no repeater on the bridge, so the captain was unaware that the doors hadn't been closed.
@@davidjones332 Broadly correct, but I should add that while the crew member being asleep in his cabin might sound like laziness/irresponsibility, he had been on a perfectly legal rest break whilst in port during an otherwise long and tiring work day, as these ferries ploughed back and forth all day long. For whatever reason he didn't wake up in time to attend his station. However this *was* noticed by a more senior crewman, who when asked at the enquiry why, given he could see the situation, did not just close the doors himself, replied 'because it wasn't my job'. This kind of attitude amongst senior crew belies a poor safety culture which ultimately leads back to the captain. As it was the poor hapless guy who overslept bore the brunt of the blame and had to live with all those deaths on his conscience. By all accounts it ruined him.
Finally! I've always been hoping for you to make a video about the MS Estonia. This ship has always haunted my thoughts. I think this is way more tragic than Titanic ever was.
When it came to the Battle Jutland, the fact that Beaty allowed cordite to be stored in the turrets without regard to safety played a major role in the loss of three British battle cruisers during the course of that battle. Beaty’s incompetence was further compounded by the fact that he also ordered the flash tight doors, which were vital for preventing flash fires from reaching the magazines, disabled in order to increase the rate of fire of his squadron.
I think M/S Estonia should deserve it's own episode where the disaster could be analyzed minute by minute. Like Mike said, it's one of the worst peace time shipping disasters. Over 850+ people died.
As someone who has lived in the Pacific Northwest of the USA my entire life, the design of those Ro-Ro ferries is just so interesting to me! We have ferries that cross the Puget Sound multiple times per day, but they are completely different. They are totally open at both ends, because it's protected water. On the very rare occasion that intense winds cause larger than usual waves, they don't run.
That's a thing confusing people: Ro-Ro Ships being called ferries because they take passengers. An actual ferry is like a Puget Sound type double-ended one. Somebody claiming it's because of the open car-deck, then why aren't car-carriers called ferries having all decks open
The bow structure of Estonias visor and ramp was practically a normal thing in all the baltic ferries before the accident. There are even photos of FIN-SWE ferries leaving port and driving long distances with both ends open in the archipelago to get all the exhaust gasses of :) And if you look closer the Estonia had also another design failure. The bridge was so back, that because the forestructure, they could not see the front visor from the bridge, not even in a calm day. There is a ton lot more about what comes to Estonia, it would be sufficient to many episodes, but I'm just glad that you did not take those more on frame in this video.
Main problem was the bow door was upward opening. Plus it was big empty volume. Meaning on sailing into a wave the doors own buoyancy tried to lift it open. Only thing keeping it closed was lock bolts on lock shackle blocks and well eventually the metal fatigue of constantly being hammered open by the sea ripped the locks. Estonias sister ship had same bow visor fail year before Estonia disaster. Only it was calmer storm so it only partially opened with one bolt still holding on while badly bent. It managed to limp back to harbor with cracked open visor. After Estonia all these up opening bow visor door were welded shut as deadly flawed. These days they use outward and sidewards sliding front doors recessed into the main Hull frame. Meaning as wave strikes the door it is pushed *closed* with even more force rather than being tried to be ripped open.
@@aritakalo8011 Ei tarvii opettaa äitiä naimaan, mutta muille tää info oli varmaan ihan hyvä. jos nyt löytävät sen kun on vastauksena mun kommenttiin eikä omana kommenttinaan
The ferry lines between Stockholm and Finland are mainly through archipelago, providing calmer waters than the route between Estonia and Sweden, so it was less of a problem. I believe the Estonia wasn't really designed for ocean sailing to begin with.
@@xergiok2322Stockholm - Turku is mainly covered route, only 2-3h of passing the Åland Sea. Helsinki - Stockholm is a blue water route, more or less like Tallinn-Stockholm. It played a certain part in exposing Estonia to the accident, but it took plenty more factors to actually lead to it. (The possibility that the disaster would be that quick, grim and uncountermeasurable, was not understood. It was a rude lesson, which brought many improvements on safety measures, as big catastrophes often do. )
I was 16 (almost 17) when the Estonia sank. Being a Finn, it hit home pretty hard. I had been on that ferry couple of different times, back when it was the Viking Sally and again when it was the Silja Star.
I was 14 and remember being in Turku university hospital dentist on the morning of Estonia disaster and while I was being tortured on the dentist chair I watched through the window helicopters landing one after the another bringing in survivors and a lots and lots of body bags. Helipad was about 100 meters from where I sat. Rest in peace to all of the victims of Estonia.
I was 6 & was scared the all late 90:s when on cruise ships when it was windy conditions. I was also abboard in the Viking Sally when it hit the rocks & flued. Was it in 93 or 95? Anyway.
I am also a Finn, over a decade older than you and had also traveled in that ferry several times back when it had those other names. I have always had bit of a claustrophobia problem and never liked to sleep in those under the deck windowless cheap cabins, but that disaster made it worse because I kept imagining what it must have been like for all those people who had been in those cabins and never made it out. These days I don't take the ferries to Sweden or Estonia often, but when I do I either pay for a cabin near one of the exits to the deck, preferably near to where the lifeboats are, no matter what it does to my budget, or I don't take a cabin at all. Sure that sinking was equally as deadly to a lot of people who made it out of the ferry and then drowned, or died of hypothermia, in the cold sea, but I think I'd still prefer dying under an open sky to drowning trapped inside that kind of maze.
I wasn't born when Estonia occurred but I quickly learned of the catastrophe since I live in Stockholm Sweden, many people here have some (at least distant) relation to someone who was onboard, including me.
Down for service this winter due to some issues - With the lift gate if im not mistaken - at the end of last season, but should be back up and running in the spring hopefully. Even without riding on it - its fun to watch it come in and out of port
I took a trip on the Badger when I was a teen with my family on a trip to the Wisconsin Dells. It's the closest I've come to actually being on a cruise
Estonia was what we call a cruise-ferry in Denmark, since it's a long distance ship that's a mix between a ferry and a cruise liner. Because of the Estonia disaster, the regulations for ships with nose gates was made stricter. This means that ferries must have an inner gate that can be closed completely waterproof, and the outer gate must be made in such a way, that if water presses on it, it will close even tighter and thus prevent water from entering the ship. The locking mechanisms must also be made so that the outer gate can only be closed once the inner gate is completely closed, locked, and sealed. This ensures that no water will enter the ship while the gate is closing. Many of the ferries that have sailed in Scandinavia since the 1960s already had doors to split the car decks into water compartments by the outer gates, but these extra doors were only lowered when the sea was rough.
The achilles heel of Estonia was not the visor itself but the fact that the bow ramp behind it was built in such a way inside the visor that when the visor failed it pulled the bow ramp open. Already at the time Estonia sank ro-ro ferries were built with butterfly bow doors that open to the side and not upwards like old visors. In rough seas these doors are actually pressed more into the hull and not upwards like visors.
When I was doing my A-levels, the Estonia disaster had just happened and the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster was still relatively recent history. My Design Technology teacher referred to ships of that design as "Roll on, Roll off, Roll over ferries"
I missed boarding the Herald of Free Enterprise by 5 minutes. Driving to Zeebrugge my petrol light came on, and I stopped to re-fill. I ended up in the stand-by queue of a dozen or so cars. The six or so in front got on, and I and the rest were turned away, so I drove to Dunkirk to catch a later sailing. Arriving in Dover in the early hours we heard the news.
We had also planned to travel on this sailing back to the yUK. In the end we chose to travel the next day. I can remember us watching the news on TV in horror - and no small measure of relief.
@@raywalsh5414I’m sure dozens of people over time noticed the open door and never said a thing, since they had no idea it was a problem - why would they since they were not ship crew or engineers? Anyway, even the crew in charge of the door didn’t think leaving it open was a problem!
There's a monument for the estonia on Museum Island in Stockholm, in between the Vasa Museum and the Mariner's cemetery. It's just a triangle of grey stone that you walk into from either a staircase downwards or into from even ground (and then up out of). It's very quiet, very simple and incredibly somber. You just stand there, entirely alone, reading name after name after name, knowing that it's a full humam life cut short. I recommend taking a look if you're in the area. Something else, the problems with the bow visor had occurred several times before on other ships, but it was never catastrophic and the shipping companies didn't really talk to each other about minor incidents. So there was a ton of hints that the design might have structural issues but it was so strewn out the crew of the estonia could never have known. It's frustrating and tragic. (I believe Beyond the Breakers made a double episode.)
Estonia's sister ship, today named M/S Bluefort, is said to have almost suffered from the exact same fate with the bow door damaged in januari 1993. Almost two years ealier.
In Estonia disaster there were some 12 unhappy coincidenses that together caused the sinking. Without any of them it would not have taken place. Design weaknesses were from the severe end: weakness of the visor locking was one and the lack of visibility (superstruckture blocked the view) from bridge to bow another. I travelled on Viking Sally during a heavy storm in 1988, enjoyed the view outside in front of the bridge, one deck down and remember wondering why the bridge was not in front end of the superstruckture but some 10m backwards. Senseless flaw, since on the accident the bridge personnel should have noticed the vizor problems in real time and not fatally too late.
The Herald of Free Enterprise is the first disaster I remember, I was six when it happened, and it made a great impression on me. I came across a Reader's Digest article about it when I was nine or so and the writing, and pictures, were pretty vivid to me - and we had been on ro-ros, so there was that tiny 'that could have been us' even though we'd never been on Herald nor travelled to Zeebrugge, using the Dover-Calais route to France instead.
The problem with the Estonia wasn't fully the bow visor, one of the causes for the disaster was that the visor had allegedly not been maintained properly (together with a large part of the ship), nowdays ships don't usually have bow visors unless they were built before the mid 80s, ferries now typically use clam doors. Another thing that you would usually find on other ferries is that on the car decks there are big walls/doors which close when the ship is at sea which divides parts of the car deck, however the Estonia didn't have these due to her being designed to operate close to the shore (mainly on the route Kapellskär-Mariehamn-Naantali) so it didn't have these. As a conclusion, a lot was learned from the M/S Estonia and ferries (especially in the baltic sea) are now built to very high standards
22:03 As someone who has been on a ferry, i can agree that ferries have became a lot safer due to engineering and development and are now adays, very safe. Great video as always, keep up the great work :)
Thank you for showing the S.S. Badger. I’ve been on that ferry before and hope to travel on her again this summer. I grew up near one side of her route in Wisconsin and often watched her head out on Lake Michigan on her way to Ludington.
S.S. Badger-the oldest coal fired steam ship still in operation in North America. I think an episode on her would be great. I have ridden her from Wisconsin to Michigan, the kids and I on vacation, drove my truck on in WI, 4 hrs later drove it off in MI. When they pull into port in MI they have to do a 180, so they drop a anchor, it grabs and the tail of the ship swings around, they throw her into reverse, pull up the anchor and back right into the dock.
Wonderful as always; great detail, fabulous drawings. A small slip here, the Herald of Free Enterprise was sailing from Zeebrugge to Dover, and came to rest outside Zeebrugge harbour.
The “Badger” at 13:30…I’m guessing that is the ferry that crosses Lake Michigan?? I’ve not seen it in person, but while at the Milwaukee Model Train show, this modeler had an extremely impressive, detailed, and LARGE diorama featuring the Badger. The diorama included a ‘floating’ ferry that moved through the harbor and docked, opened its doors, and unloaded and loaded trains and maybe automobiles (if I remember correctly). The level of detail was so amazing that I sometimes forget I actually have not seen it live - although I have in a documentary or two…or three, now :)
If you live in Wisconsin, you should take a ride on Badger some time. They offer short cruises now, so you don't need to think up excuses to go all of the way to Ludington. Sunset cruises are particularly nice.
Herald of Free Enterprise was a member of a fleet of three ro-ro ships built for the Dover to Calais route - the other two were Spirit and Pride. I believe Herald held the "blue ribband" equivalent for the fastest channel crossing. I rode on her twice in the 1970s. She was not supposed to be on the Zeebrugge route as the linkspan at Zeebrugge was not designed to handle her. In order to unload cars from E deck the bow ballast tanks had to be flooded to lower the ship enough to connect the linkspan. When she departed Zeebrugge, as well as the doors not being closed, the tanks had not been emptied so she was sitting too low in the water. The failure to close the doors was a classic case of someone assuming someone else had done it but no-one did it and no-one checked it had actually been done.
On the contrary it emerged at the inquiry that a senior crew member had seen the doors open but didn't close them as it 'wasn't his job'. It was also discovered that these ships were often operated for quite a distance with the doors open.
I still remember the sinking of the Estonia, it was all over the news, papers, radio and tv. It was so incomprehensible that a ferry would sink in our modern times.
British battlecruisers also had 1 other difference in them. The bags of cordite would form crystals on their surface, which, when handled cast allot of dust. The crews had been told and the cordite had been tested as a much safer propellant, which at least some believe led to a lapse in the fastidiousness of the cleaning regime. A buildup of ropellant dust, in the case of recieving an impact such as a 15in shell, will disperse into the air and instantly become a fuel air bomb just waiting for another shock or flame to set it off. So an AP shell crashing into 7" of steel launches the dust into the air and the shell detonation ignites it. It may not have even required penetration of the barbett as the crystals that formed were found to be much more volatile than the fresh produced cordite that they tested.
Add to that that (most of) the BC's where likely not adhering to the safe ammunition handling practices anyway do to Adm. Beatty's insistence on a extremely high rate of fire (due to their home port not being conducive to long range accuracy training), which is why we have crew testimony that (at least during training, and you tend to practice what you train) many safety measures had been bypassed (like the ammunition hoists flash doors being jammed/left open). And it is notable that several of the newest arrivals to the fleet, who didn't have time to pick up any bad habits, took 100+ hits (including many to their turrets) and suffered only minor damage from them.
When you started talking about the roll on ferries I was already thinking of SS Princess Victoria. She sailed at that time to keep to British Rail times despite the terrible conditions. All survivors were the fittest men and no women or children survived. The Lifeboat that rescued the survivors still exists and is being preserved in a Carpark in Doughadee, Northern Ireland.
See my comment above. Profits before safety still goes on. For example our buses were sent out in blizzard conditions and I was nearly stranded. Luckily I made it back, but it was a dangerous journey and I was getting very cold by the time I reached my own car in order to drive home!
I'm from Sweden and I remember the Estonia accident so well. In the town where I live there is a memorial plaque for the people who died. Here in Sweden there are still theories how this accident happened and that the official investigation doesn't tell the truth....
Something dodgy with the official narrative, if it was Russia responsible, then we would’ve known by now, but that they aren’t blaming Russia, then you have to ask what NATO hand played in this incident.
If there's another story in this series, it could examine the loss of two LCGs (Landing Craft Gun) in 1943. These craft were originally built as tank landing craft, and had been modified to carry two 4.7 inch guns. LCG 15 and LCG 16 were caught in a storm off the Welsh coast and sank because part of their upper deck had not been covered when the modifications were carried out, causing them to flood and sink with heavy loss of life.
One major flaw in the Estonia's design was that her superstructure extended ahead of the bridge, so that it completely blocked its view of the bow. This is another reason why the crew didn't notice that the visor was coming loose.
I was on board Estonia once as a kid when it was in port in Stockholm cause my sister worked for the company that owned Estonia. She personally knew a fair few of the bridge crew.
For over 30 years, I've been riding on double-sided Ro-Ro ferries, operated by Washington State Ferries. None of them have bow doors (perhaps some of the earliest incarnations of the "Mosquito Fleet" did before the State system took over), but on the other hand- despite operating in nothing-but Pacific Ocean seawater- the natural shape of Puget Sound's roughly-horseshoe shape provides a lot of protection from wind and larger wave action. That said, I have been on WSF a number of times during rough seas over the decades, and- yes- there have been times when water has rushed over the bow! _But,_ I am never concerned, because they have many drainage holes and unseen pumps ready-to-go, and to-date no double-ended Ro-Ro has _ever_ sunken due to adverse weather. WSF also has regulations in-place for all of their ferries when storm conditions arise, and so there have been times when routes have shut-down.
Mine too, definitely not the prettiest or most interesting ships, it's more the story and tragedy that seemed to follow her until she sank, like two different murders on the ship some years before the sinking.
The continued evolution of RoRo ferries is interesting to see given the constant need to transport people and goods as efficiently as possible. Unfortunately speed took precedence in cases such as the Herald of Free Enterprise. Apparently because it was so shallow the squat effect was partly responsible in allowing water into the ship. Another great episode, awesome channel 👌
Loved the video, very well done. However; small mistake I found at 10:05. The thickness of the armor of the Invincible's barbettes is listed as 9 inches, the same thickness as the SMS Seydlitz's barbettes. Though, the centimeter and dialogue description are correct. just a minor typo on the inches. Again, I love your videos and every you do, keep up the great work have a good day
Some RORO ferries have a semi-sealed car deck, so that even if water enters that part of the ship, it can't migrate to the lower sections of the hull and is drained out via scuppers. This has it's own limitations of course, since it means that either crew in the hull (i.e. engineering) have difficulty accessing the upper part of the ship. This can sometimes be minimized by having sealed dedicated stairwells that bypass the car deck
As a Finn living in Turku, I can still remember how my mother walked me to see the helicopters bringing victims of Estonia, which were landing at Hellpad next to our local hospital. Helicopters look so cool, but afterward, I have understood how tragic and devastating it all was
Despite only being seven years old at the time, I remember the Herald of Free Enterprise incident well. It dominated the news for about a week. Made me quite scared of ferries for a few years and I didn't go on one after that until 1992.
After that episode if you travelled on a ferry you would hear the captain make a public announcement that the doors were closed before leaving the berth.
A missed opportunity to mention the further evolution of bow doors; gone is the upward swinging visor and in its place a 2 piece door arrangement that utilises the very force threatening to rip it open. Ask n to the design of a boradhead arrow tip; you have 2 halves/sides that come together to close and, much like how arch bridges get increased strength thanks to the keystone, the force of the water trying to get in, actually makes it harder, allowing it to take the types of pounding waves that, in days of yore, would've ripped the visor off and flooded the ship. A small point in the grand scale of this video but vital nonetheless. Keep up the cracking content
Quick note on Battlecruisers in WW1; Jutland was not the first time Battlecruisers traded fire with each other. That was the Battle of the Dogger Bank 4 months prior, when the British Battlecruiser squadron intercepted the German Battlecruiser squadron on its way to raid the coast of England. This battle led to the sinking of a German Cruiser and one German Battlecruiser was damaged.
A little note on the battlecruisers: Seydlitz suffered the hit described at 9:30 not at Jutland but a year prior in 1915 at Dogger Bank, though she does suffer similar hits in Jutland, the Germans for their credit investigated what happened after Dogger Bank and implemented anti-flash protections which would save their ships from the fates suffered by the British Battlecruisers. Edit: Included Timestamp and fixed some spelling errors.
The fact that its almost 30 years (Exactly 30 in September) since Estonia sank and when that happened I would have been all of 8 months old when it happened.
Thanks Mr. Brady. A great video to be sure. My Dad, who was a ship and navy enthusiast, always said the Battlecruiser is a compromise of the wrong kind.
We took the Badger across Lake Michigan a few years ago. It was great fun, but it satisfied any wisp of desire I had ever had for taking a cruise. The lake was calm, the sky clear, my mal de mer well in hand, but looking a just water for a couple hours....nope. Glad we did it, the coal fired old girl was great, bringing back pleasant memories of steam engines and locomotives.
When that happened, I thought of the last car to board the previous ferry, the first car on that ship, the last one on that ship, and the first one on what would be the next ferry. And the people in those cars.
12:55 It was revolutionary for *automobiles* only. Rolling carriages on ships has been used widely for railcars back in the early 1900s and even before. Like for instance the railcar ferries on the Great Lakes in the US. The Pere Marquette Line Ferries come to my mind, which operated from 1897 until its merger in 1947, operating 13 ferries by then. With some notable losses of course, because poor and violent weather conditions on the Great Lakes would not stand far behind that of "open sea" on oceans. You did show the "S. S. Badger" from 1952, which is the last coal-fired / piston engine powered Great Lake ferry. Its predecessors date way back to the end of the 19th century. Thanks for sharing !
20:32 I remember this when it played out in the news, being from Kent, England. However, the ferry met its demise travelling FROM Zeebrugge on its way to Dover.
The one thing a battle cruiser was never supposed to do was take on a battleship. Or, another battlecruiser that had battleship caliber guns. In 1916 they tried it. Didn't end very well
It's like asking a self-propelled artillery piece to perform the duties of/fight a tank. It ain't going to end well for the SPA and it's shrapnel/small arms only armour, despite (probably, most SPA guns are 90-155mm, most modern tanks have 105-130mm guns) having a similar sized gun.
I live on an Island that heavily relies on 3 different ferry services to travel to the mainland US that have a total of 10 car loading ferry vessels, some of which are so old they served in WW2 on D-Day and the most modern vessel was built in the late 90's. I've taken trips on these ferries at least over 100 times and never thought of anything of it and now after seeing this video I'm kinda scared. Next time I go on one I might sit on the upper deck as close as I can get to the life vest and life boats/rafts
The loss of the three cruisers in the Battle of Jutland sadly was echoed decades later in the first years of WW2: The loss of the battlecruiser HMS Hood when engaged in combat with the Bismark and Prinz Eugen.
More on Invincible class' doctrine: We see Invincible class' armor was considered inadequate by the time of Jutland, but they were drafted way back to 1905, when heavy AP shells were still not effective against the new Harvey and Krupp armor, and was reflected on the Battle of Tsushima of the same year. Fisher had anticipated Invincible class to have the armor enough to hold against battleship caliber shells from long range (＞10000m), and based on this concept, they can, theoretically, engage enemy heavy units with their superior speed, and take up favorable position ahead of enemy's reaction (which they somewhat did successfully during Jutland). Fisher really hoped battlecruisers to be the new standard of the navy (in his own words, these were real form of fast battleships), however, the upgrade of naval techonology was just too fast. By the time of Jutland, Invincible's 7in turret armor could be easily penetrated by German 11in and 12in guns, which resulted in her destruction (The loss of the newer Queen Mary was another story of course). History would eventually see fast battleships succed battlecruisers, just not in the way that Fisher wanted.
I have traveled with Ms Estonia several times in my childhood in the 90s. Sailed once in a heavy storm between Vasa and Umeå in the Gulf of Bothnia when she was called Wasa King. Scary in retrospect. We had our cabin forward in the ship and I could see the bow visor straight out our cabin window. She was a really nice ferry for her time but terrible with everything that happened afterwards.
I know they're not practical for anything longer than an hour (and for many locations), but it seems the 'floating bridge' chain ferry style of car ferry is much safer in terms of not taking on water. Put the embark/disembark points high on each end of the route, then put the cars on the top of the hull. The 'hole' does not go below the waterline. Of course, chain ferries cause their own problems (mostly that the chains can disrupt other shipping).
There are car ferries that do not have doors in the bow or stem. The ferries of the Alaska marine line use a car elevator to get cars into them from the top. This design allows the Tustumena to brave the Alucian chain.
Oooh! This is my kind of video! I love hearing about how ship design improved over time due to disasters like these! New information for me to learn! Keep it up! 😁
My mom went a cruise with her family on the Viking Sally (M/S Estonia) in the late 1980’s. There was this kinda famous artist performing on the main stage (can’t remember his name) Anyways my grandma had mentioned to my mom that she thought he was ”slimey” Y’know, corny and stuff. Anyways my mom being the small child that she was, took that literally, and was determined to see for herself. So she got some flowers, walked up to him and gave them to him. He thanked her and gave her a hug in return. Mom comes up running to grandma and exclaims ”He wasn’t slimey!”🤣
Estonia! I am from Finland and I remember this disaster. Hard to believe it has been 30 years since it. Thank you for talking about her too.
F EU
Bro is british @@user-ej1dh3hb6l
There’s a great and horrifying article online in The Atlantic magazine that has eyewitness accounts of the Estonia sinking.
@@user-ej1dh3hb6l FÅRK DIG!
why did my reply get deleted@@user-ej1dh3hb6l
Ooooh, Estonia! Very cool to see you talk about this ship, I'm from Sweden and here it's pretty much just Titanic and Estonia (and Vasa) that are the main sinking disasters that are in popular knowledge, so it's cool to see her discussed internationally as well!
Well, hello from Estonia 🇪🇪 😁
Well as a Swed i can confirme your comment
@@redbaron3344 Hello from Sweden!
Fun fact, she had a couple of names throughout her career. She started out as the Viking-Sally for the Viking Line before being renamed the Silja-Star for the Silja Lines, Wasa King for the Wasa-Lines and finally Estonia for Estline.
Now, technically speaking the Estonia wasn't a ship. These are ferries, and unlike ships, ferries aren't particularly seaworthy in comparison. Then again, neither are those silly looking cruise ships even though they are nominally ships but lack sufficient freeboard.
M/S Estonia was a messy story. Almost 850 Swedes drowned. I remember being 9 years old in 1994 waking up 7 in the morning to watch Disneymovies on Swedish TV just to be met by a board bulletin with text. Irritated i woke up my parents and told them a ship had sunk. They didnt believe me first but once they put on the TV it was clear. That day it was all about the accident and i remember how angry i was that there was no cartoons shown on the TV.
Not 850 swedes. Around 500 were swedes. 200 something were estonians and 150 people were of various other nationalities such as finnish, Danish english and even 1 or 2 People from Nigeria if i remember correctly.
I'm older than you and for me it was the Palme Murder so they cancelled Woody Woodpecker on Go'morron Sverige.
I'm still upset about this !
Cartoons where rare in the 80's when everyone working in SVT was a communist.
I woke up to the news broadcast on my alarm clock at 6.00, and they played the "mayday mayday" that Estonia had sent. Still gives me chills.
Early in the morning of Wed, 28 September 1994, I woke up to helicopters hovering over the house I lived in in Turku (Finland). Much to my surprise, one had Swedish markings and it was trying to land at the local hospital (TYKS). Opening the TV I learned that a "ferry had experienced and accident" and thought they might be bringing some patients for care.
As the morning advanced, the full scale of the disaster started to dawn.
Much respect to the rescuers and my deepest condolences to those who lost loved ones. ❤
I remember being in Turku university hospital dentist (the round building) on the morning of Estonia disaster and while I was being tortured on the dentists chair I watched through the window as helicopters landed one after the another bringing in survivors and a lots and lots of body bags. Helipad was about 100 meters from where I sat on the second floor, it was a somber sight, there weren't many survivors at this point 😔
Rest in peace to all of the victims of Estonia and my condolences to the victims families.
I'm Finnish too and i had just recently started my military service at the time. It was the first night we spent out of barracks in tents somewhere in the woods of Eastern Finland. The weather was not nice, rained so much and we got hardly any sleep all night. In the morning an army truck driver said he heard on radio of a ship disaster in Bay of Finland.
We were so exhausted at the moment that i couldn't really process the information and it was vague info anyway at that point. Later that day when we dried up back in the barracks we started to realize what had happened.
It's definitely one of the collective flashbulb memories for people around here...everyone remembers it vividly and it touched us deeply, still does, even though there weren't many Finns aboard.
But our ships, Silja Line and Viking Line were there leading the rescue operation and most survivors (and bodies) were brought to Finland. Bless the souls who were lost 💙
I'm Estonian and I was a teenager when the Estonia sank. In addition to just the overall shock of it, there was a personal connection - my mother travelled to Sweden around that time and I wasn't sure what ship she was on. Luckily she wasn't on the Estonia and her trip started the following morning. She told me afterwards that they did stop at the Estonia's sinking location and her ship took part in the rescue efforts.
yeah i heard 18 ships helped the rescue effort
The opening line of this made me chuckle
"Ships are, and this may surprise you, very big" Just the kind of information I come to this channel for, my friend, Mike Brady 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Sipping my tea this morning while my friend Mike Brady cheerfully discusses some major maritime disasters. 😊
Cheers from Michigan
He's actually my friend Mike Brady.
I worked on the Belfast to Scotland route on a ro-ro ferry for over four years. I can tell you of the furoristy of the weather is so very humbling even on a large well built ship. But thanks to the lessons learnt from the Estonia and Herald of Free Enterprise I never once felt the ship would succumb to the sea.
Unfortunately humans feels about if a ship will sink or not.
Are irrelevant.
Small world another Belfast man on this channel
only ro-ro I've ever been on never left Puget Sound. That model wasn't even operated in stormy weather. Seemingly in large part due to not actually having a full door.
More like the ferries being double-ended and not very large @@marhawkman303
5:52 As some in a Discord server I was part of call her "the Stalker of the Atlantic", Olympic ALWAYS turns up near the ship or object in focus. I dunno how this happens, but it’s just too funny.
HMS 'Dreadnought' has to be one of the absolute most awesome sounding name ever. That name just demands respect.
Unsurprisingly, it's a name the Royal navy has used many times and, because of Games Workshop has even earned the unofficial motto "Even In Death I Still Serve"
She's is to return in the form of an SSBN nuclear submarine in the next few years as well.
I am extremely impressed by the sheer force of will and restraint you've shown in talking about accidents with Ro-Ro ships and not calling them "Roll-on, Roll-over's" even once. Truly the trained human mind in action is a marvel to behold!
In Ontario, Canada there has been a Ro-Ro ferry service from Tobermory and South Bay Mouth on Manitoulin Island. A second Ro-Ro joined the service. The first, Chi Cheemaun, has had a long, illustrious career. The channel she crosses is wide. The trip is about 90 minutes each way. The current and condition can be quite something. The bow does lift. It is quite the little trip.
@@michaeltutty1540 Not sure why you chose to reply to my sarcastic little comment but it brought a wry smile to my face to learn that Chi Cheemaun translates to Big Canoe. This is what we here in the Netherlands would call: "de goden verzoeken" (tempting the gods).
I did have an enjoyable 15 minutes looking up the ship, the route and the surrounding geography. Is the ship still painted like that? It looks good. Maybe the spirits are a counter to the above. 😁
Love from the Netherlands. (And if you're Canadian even more love, we haven't forgotten what you did for us Canada.)
@@exharkhun5605 This is such a lovely comment it made me smile :-)
@@exharkhun5605yes, it is still painted that way! I went on a trip on that ferry this summer. It’s a nice ship, I liked seeing all of the graffiti on the railings from the 1990s schoolchildren. The trip it takes through Lake Huron is beautiful too, many islands
Estonia's bow ramp was kind of designed to fail together with the bow visor. It was too long to just close the hole when lifted up. Part of it went higher than the deck on top and was covered by a "hump" in the top of the visor. So when the visor broke off, it hung from the ramp and the ramp wasn't designed to carry such a load, so the falling visor pulled the ramp open.
I have traveled on that ship. Back when its name was Viking Sally and it was running between Finland and Sweden. And it was not the only sunk ship that I have been a passenger on. The other one was Viking Saga, later named Sally Albatross. A navigation error brought it to too shallow water and it contacted the rocky sea bottom and started taking in water to too many compartments Titanic style. Its crew was able to beach it and prevent if from sinking completely so there was no loss of life. Even lifeboats were not needed because people could simply walk out of the ship onto the sea ice. It sat half sunken there for weeks but was eventually raised, repaired and returned to service.
sounds like that ship should have had some kind of switch that would have opened if the visor was not tightly closed and trigger a master caution on the helm(or whatever the boat term is for the primary "Oh Shit" alarm).
@@filanfyretracker There was such an alarm but only with a light (no sound) and it wasn't very well placed on the bridge so it's not certain that they observed the alarm at all. Further, there seems to have been uncertainty about such a basic thing as if green or red means open. It was different for different doors, green for open on some and red for open on others. Not a good design.
Remind me to never sail on a ship after you lmao
The Viking Saga was a disaster in general, having had multiple fires onboard, having to make very big rebuild due to them, ones that go as far as to make the ship class as a totally different ship
@@Obi_Wan_Kenobi_027 The unsinkable Molly @vsikifi
Yes!! Very happy to see you mention this disaster. It's frankly a little strange how under the radar the sinking of M/S Estonia flies, internationally speaking. I'm from Finland and for Estonians, Swedes and us it's been a lifelong search for answers. Would love a longer video on the topic.
I am just happy that MS Estonia was mentioned on this channel. I hope there will be more of Estonia and Baltic Sea . And also, hello from your Estonian 🇪🇪 subscriber 😁
Schiff
Baltic Sea? Sry' But! Østersøen her.
@@dallesamllhals9161 bro we dont need swede
@@Fritzsche-ki6gv In Finnish it is too East sea or itämeri in Finnish. Maybe because of Finland's long history under Swedish rule.
im also Estonian
Family members missed the "Herald Of Free Enterprise" by 20 minutes due to an - in first sight - unfortunate traffic jam on the way to Zeebrugge. We - at home - knew that they intended to be on that ship when the news from its capsizing came in. But fortunately we got a call that they missed the ship and were now standing in awe in the harbour with the rescue operations on the way. Sometimes bad luck turns into good luck ... Only sometimes.
It was neat to see the "Badger" , a Lake Michigan ferry originally built to haul railroad cars from Mamitowoc, Wis, to Ludington, Mich. It now runs that route with passenger cars, semi trucks, and passengers. I rode that trip a few times, very nice!
I took a trip on the Badger many years ago when I was a teen with my family. We went across the Lake from Michigan for a vacation to the Wisconsin Dells. It was a treat to see the ship make an appearance in this video!
I read with the herald of free enterprise that it was made worse that they had not emptied the ballast tanks after loading the top car deck. Doing so would have meant the open door would have been higher, meaning in theory that even though the door was open, providing the sea was calm they would have been OK. As they hadn't emptied the ballast tanks that hole was a lot lower in the water.
Loved this video as always.
It baffles me, that the ships designers never thought about that.
You could easily make alarms scream without stop, disengage the engines, when the ramp is open, or even put water sensors into the ship, that automatically close and check the doors of the ferry.
As a software engineer, I am a bit out of words, that they have no idiot support build in what so ever...
Always, really always think about the most stupid stuff the user can do or happen randomly :D shit happens all the time and in that case, people die if it does... The ramp is open and the ship happily sails onto the ocean is one of the first, that comes to mind...
@dag1704 I mean yeah! Even something that told them of by the way the ballast tanks are full. I mean I know this was the 80s but even liners like the lusitania and titanic had automatic doors in the necessary areas.
@@dag1704 From what I remember, with the Herald there were actually sensors for the open door but either there was no one at the station where they raised an alarm, or they were never armed because that happened when the door closure was triggered, and they never actually triggered the closing procedure. Something like that, it's been years since I saw a long documentary on the Herald. But long story short, there were sensors that turned out useless because of human error.
@@baktru As I recall, the person responsible for closing the doors was asleep in his cabin, and nobody noticed that he wasn't at his station when the ship sailed. It seems that whatever warning system was fitted, there was no repeater on the bridge, so the captain was unaware that the doors hadn't been closed.
@@davidjones332 Broadly correct, but I should add that while the crew member being asleep in his cabin might sound like laziness/irresponsibility, he had been on a perfectly legal rest break whilst in port during an otherwise long and tiring work day, as these ferries ploughed back and forth all day long. For whatever reason he didn't wake up in time to attend his station. However this *was* noticed by a more senior crewman, who when asked at the enquiry why, given he could see the situation, did not just close the doors himself, replied 'because it wasn't my job'. This kind of attitude amongst senior crew belies a poor safety culture which ultimately leads back to the captain. As it was the poor hapless guy who overslept bore the brunt of the blame and had to live with all those deaths on his conscience. By all accounts it ruined him.
Finally! I've always been hoping for you to make a video about the MS Estonia. This ship has always haunted my thoughts. I think this is way more tragic than Titanic ever was.
The Estonia, she was indeed one of the most tragic sinking in these last couple of decades. Happy you mentioned her
Thank you for finally mentioning Estonia! I really feel like her and her unfortunate fate are not talked about enough.
There's like 8 documentaries on UA-cam about the Estonia- just an FYI.
It is talked about all the time. New conspiracy theory BS every six months.
When it came to the Battle Jutland, the fact that Beaty allowed cordite to be stored in the turrets without regard to safety played a major role in the loss of three British battle cruisers during the course of that battle. Beaty’s incompetence was further compounded by the fact that he also ordered the flash tight doors, which were vital for preventing flash fires from reaching the magazines, disabled in order to increase the rate of fire of his squadron.
I think M/S Estonia should deserve it's own episode where the disaster could be analyzed minute by minute. Like Mike said, it's one of the worst peace time shipping disasters. Over 850+ people died.
You can find the radio conversations on UA-cam, some shorter and at least one like two hours
As someone who has lived in the Pacific Northwest of the USA my entire life, the design of those Ro-Ro ferries is just so interesting to me! We have ferries that cross the Puget Sound multiple times per day, but they are completely different. They are totally open at both ends, because it's protected water. On the very rare occasion that intense winds cause larger than usual waves, they don't run.
Same for the car carrying ferries that operate between Manhattan and Staten Island. It’s not open ocean.
That's a thing confusing people: Ro-Ro Ships being called ferries because they take passengers. An actual ferry is like a Puget Sound type double-ended one.
Somebody claiming it's because of the open car-deck, then why aren't car-carriers called ferries having all decks open
The bow structure of Estonias visor and ramp was practically a normal thing in all the baltic ferries before the accident. There are even photos of FIN-SWE ferries leaving port and driving long distances with both ends open in the archipelago to get all the exhaust gasses of :)
And if you look closer the Estonia had also another design failure. The bridge was so back, that because the forestructure, they could not see the front visor from the bridge, not even in a calm day.
There is a ton lot more about what comes to Estonia, it would be sufficient to many episodes, but I'm just glad that you did not take those more on frame in this video.
Main problem was the bow door was upward opening. Plus it was big empty volume. Meaning on sailing into a wave the doors own buoyancy tried to lift it open.
Only thing keeping it closed was lock bolts on lock shackle blocks and well eventually the metal fatigue of constantly being hammered open by the sea ripped the locks.
Estonias sister ship had same bow visor fail year before Estonia disaster. Only it was calmer storm so it only partially opened with one bolt still holding on while badly bent. It managed to limp back to harbor with cracked open visor.
After Estonia all these up opening bow visor door were welded shut as deadly flawed.
These days they use outward and sidewards sliding front doors recessed into the main Hull frame. Meaning as wave strikes the door it is pushed *closed* with even more force rather than being tried to be ripped open.
@@aritakalo8011 Ei tarvii opettaa äitiä naimaan, mutta muille tää info oli varmaan ihan hyvä. jos nyt löytävät sen kun on vastauksena mun kommenttiin eikä omana kommenttinaan
The ferry lines between Stockholm and Finland are mainly through archipelago, providing calmer waters than the route between Estonia and Sweden, so it was less of a problem. I believe the Estonia wasn't really designed for ocean sailing to begin with.
@@xergiok2322Stockholm - Turku is mainly covered route, only 2-3h of passing the Åland Sea. Helsinki - Stockholm is a blue water route, more or less like Tallinn-Stockholm. It played a certain part in exposing Estonia to the accident, but it took plenty more factors to actually lead to it.
(The possibility that the disaster would be that quick, grim and uncountermeasurable, was not understood. It was a rude lesson, which brought many improvements on safety measures, as big catastrophes often do. )
I was 16 (almost 17) when the Estonia sank. Being a Finn, it hit home pretty hard. I had been on that ferry couple of different times, back when it was the Viking Sally and again when it was the Silja Star.
I was 14 and remember being in Turku university hospital dentist on the morning of Estonia disaster and while I was being tortured on the dentist chair I watched through the window helicopters landing one after the another bringing in survivors and a lots and lots of body bags. Helipad was about 100 meters from where I sat.
Rest in peace to all of the victims of Estonia.
I was 6 & was scared the all late 90:s when on cruise ships when it was windy conditions. I was also abboard in the Viking Sally when it hit the rocks & flued. Was it in 93 or 95? Anyway.
I am also a Finn, over a decade older than you and had also traveled in that ferry several times back when it had those other names. I have always had bit of a claustrophobia problem and never liked to sleep in those under the deck windowless cheap cabins, but that disaster made it worse because I kept imagining what it must have been like for all those people who had been in those cabins and never made it out. These days I don't take the ferries to Sweden or Estonia often, but when I do I either pay for a cabin near one of the exits to the deck, preferably near to where the lifeboats are, no matter what it does to my budget, or I don't take a cabin at all. Sure that sinking was equally as deadly to a lot of people who made it out of the ferry and then drowned, or died of hypothermia, in the cold sea, but I think I'd still prefer dying under an open sky to drowning trapped inside that kind of maze.
I wasn't born when Estonia occurred but I quickly learned of the catastrophe since I live in Stockholm Sweden, many people here have some (at least distant) relation to someone who was onboard, including me.
Ooo, finally see a ship i know, the S.S. Badger! Haven't seen her in ages, but she's still running services between west Michigan and Wisconsin.
I was on her a few years ago! Amazingly fun!
Down for service this winter due to some issues - With the lift gate if im not mistaken - at the end of last season, but should be back up and running in the spring hopefully. Even without riding on it - its fun to watch it come in and out of port
I saw the Badger too! Have crossed a few times on her, both with and without a vehicle!
I took a trip on the Badger when I was a teen with my family on a trip to the Wisconsin Dells. It's the closest I've come to actually being on a cruise
Estonia was what we call a cruise-ferry in Denmark, since it's a long distance ship that's a mix between a ferry and a cruise liner. Because of the Estonia disaster, the regulations for ships with nose gates was made stricter. This means that ferries must have an inner gate that can be closed completely waterproof, and the outer gate must be made in such a way, that if water presses on it, it will close even tighter and thus prevent water from entering the ship. The locking mechanisms must also be made so that the outer gate can only be closed once the inner gate is completely closed, locked, and sealed. This ensures that no water will enter the ship while the gate is closing.
Many of the ferries that have sailed in Scandinavia since the 1960s already had doors to split the car decks into water compartments by the outer gates, but these extra doors were only lowered when the sea was rough.
The achilles heel of Estonia was not the visor itself but the fact that the bow ramp behind it was built in such a way inside the visor that when the visor failed it pulled the bow ramp open. Already at the time Estonia sank ro-ro ferries were built with butterfly bow doors that open to the side and not upwards like old visors. In rough seas these doors are actually pressed more into the hull and not upwards like visors.
When I was doing my A-levels, the Estonia disaster had just happened and the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster was still relatively recent history.
My Design Technology teacher referred to ships of that design as "Roll on, Roll off, Roll over ferries"
I missed boarding the Herald of Free Enterprise by 5 minutes. Driving to Zeebrugge my petrol light came on, and I stopped to re-fill. I ended up in the stand-by queue of a dozen or so cars. The six or so in front got on, and I and the rest were turned away, so I drove to Dunkirk to catch a later sailing. Arriving in Dover in the early hours we heard the news.
If you had just made it to the Herald of Free Enterprise you might have spotted the bow door left open behind you and mentioned it to one of the crew.
We had also planned to travel on this sailing back to the yUK. In the end we chose to travel the next day. I can remember us watching the news on TV in horror - and no small measure of relief.
Wow, talk about a lucky escape!
@@raywalsh5414I’m sure dozens of people over time noticed the open door and never said a thing, since they had no idea it was a problem - why would they since they were not ship crew or engineers? Anyway, even the crew in charge of the door didn’t think leaving it open was a problem!
There's a monument for the estonia on Museum Island in Stockholm, in between the Vasa Museum and the Mariner's cemetery. It's just a triangle of grey stone that you walk into from either a staircase downwards or into from even ground (and then up out of). It's very quiet, very simple and incredibly somber. You just stand there, entirely alone, reading name after name after name, knowing that it's a full humam life cut short. I recommend taking a look if you're in the area.
Something else, the problems with the bow visor had occurred several times before on other ships, but it was never catastrophic and the shipping companies didn't really talk to each other about minor incidents. So there was a ton of hints that the design might have structural issues but it was so strewn out the crew of the estonia could never have known. It's frustrating and tragic. (I believe Beyond the Breakers made a double episode.)
Estonia's sister ship, today named M/S Bluefort, is said to have almost suffered from the exact same fate with the bow door damaged in januari 1993. Almost two years ealier.
The Herald of Free Enterprise was actually departing Zeebrugge, not Dover.
Good point, also worth a mention that by pure luck it capsized on a sand bank.. Otherwise the death toll may have been even higher
In Estonia disaster there were some 12 unhappy coincidenses that together caused the sinking. Without any of them it would not have taken place. Design weaknesses were from the severe end: weakness of the visor locking was one and the lack of visibility (superstruckture blocked the view) from bridge to bow another. I travelled on Viking Sally during a heavy storm in 1988, enjoyed the view outside in front of the bridge, one deck down and remember wondering why the bridge was not in front end of the superstruckture but some 10m backwards. Senseless flaw, since on the accident the bridge personnel should have noticed the vizor problems in real time and not fatally too late.
Nice to see Estonia in this video. Probably for me the most touching incident as finnish person.
finally the Estonia is brought up! another very famous sinking im shocked hasnt been covered yet even in more detail. great video as alway!
Mad props to you for not giggling every time you had to say "roro" or "roro ferries." I chuckled when I heard you saying it.
Also, thank you Mike for bringing up Estonia. It was a horrible tragedy nad it's still very much remember in the Baltic region.
The Herald of Free Enterprise is the first disaster I remember, I was six when it happened, and it made a great impression on me. I came across a Reader's Digest article about it when I was nine or so and the writing, and pictures, were pretty vivid to me - and we had been on ro-ros, so there was that tiny 'that could have been us' even though we'd never been on Herald nor travelled to Zeebrugge, using the Dover-Calais route to France instead.
The problem with the Estonia wasn't fully the bow visor, one of the causes for the disaster was that the visor had allegedly not been maintained properly (together with a large part of the ship), nowdays ships don't usually have bow visors unless they were built before the mid 80s, ferries now typically use clam doors.
Another thing that you would usually find on other ferries is that on the car decks there are big walls/doors which close when the ship is at sea which divides parts of the car deck, however the Estonia didn't have these due to her being designed to operate close to the shore (mainly on the route Kapellskär-Mariehamn-Naantali) so it didn't have these.
As a conclusion, a lot was learned from the M/S Estonia and ferries (especially in the baltic sea) are now built to very high standards
22:03 As someone who has been on a ferry, i can agree that ferries have became a lot safer due to engineering and development and are now adays, very safe. Great video as always, keep up the great work :)
Very tragic story with Estonia... Im very glad you mentioned this ship ❤️🩹
I am immediately fascinated by the presenters clothing.
That's undoubtedly a detachable collar he's rocking, for instance.
Just clicked on the video. But i know that its gonna be good. Its always a good day when mike uploads
Thank you for showing the S.S. Badger. I’ve been on that ferry before and hope to travel on her again this summer. I grew up near one side of her route in Wisconsin and often watched her head out on Lake Michigan on her way to Ludington.
S.S. Badger-the oldest coal fired steam ship still in operation in North America. I think an episode on her would be great. I have ridden her from Wisconsin to Michigan, the kids and I on vacation, drove my truck on in WI, 4 hrs later drove it off in MI. When they pull into port in MI they have to do a 180, so they drop a anchor, it grabs and the tail of the ship swings around, they throw her into reverse, pull up the anchor and back right into the dock.
Awesome video, Mike! Once again you provide very explicit details about ships nearly forgotten to history! Well done!
Very cool to see you cover the MS Estonia! I'm Estonian myself and for some of us here, it's basically our 'Titanic' (metaphorically).
How many people in Estonia do believe that the disaster did not happen in the way that official report says?
Wonderful as always; great detail, fabulous drawings. A small slip here, the Herald of Free Enterprise was sailing from Zeebrugge to Dover, and came to rest outside Zeebrugge harbour.
The “Badger” at 13:30…I’m guessing that is the ferry that crosses Lake Michigan?? I’ve not seen it in person, but while at the Milwaukee Model Train show, this modeler had an extremely impressive, detailed, and LARGE diorama featuring the Badger. The diorama included a ‘floating’ ferry that moved through the harbor and docked, opened its doors, and unloaded and loaded trains and maybe automobiles (if I remember correctly). The level of detail was so amazing that I sometimes forget I actually have not seen it live - although I have in a documentary or two…or three, now :)
If you live in Wisconsin, you should take a ride on Badger some time. They offer short cruises now, so you don't need to think up excuses to go all of the way to Ludington. Sunset cruises are particularly nice.
Herald of Free Enterprise was a member of a fleet of three ro-ro ships built for the Dover to Calais route - the other two were Spirit and Pride. I believe Herald held the "blue ribband" equivalent for the fastest channel crossing. I rode on her twice in the 1970s. She was not supposed to be on the Zeebrugge route as the linkspan at Zeebrugge was not designed to handle her. In order to unload cars from E deck the bow ballast tanks had to be flooded to lower the ship enough to connect the linkspan. When she departed Zeebrugge, as well as the doors not being closed, the tanks had not been emptied so she was sitting too low in the water. The failure to close the doors was a classic case of someone assuming someone else had done it but no-one did it and no-one checked it had actually been done.
On the contrary it emerged at the inquiry that a senior crew member had seen the doors open but didn't close them as it 'wasn't his job'. It was also discovered that these ships were often operated for quite a distance with the doors open.
I still remember the sinking of the Estonia, it was all over the news, papers, radio and tv. It was so incomprehensible that a ferry would sink in our modern times.
British battlecruisers also had 1 other difference in them.
The bags of cordite would form crystals on their surface, which, when handled cast allot of dust.
The crews had been told and the cordite had been tested as a much safer propellant, which at least some believe led to a lapse in the fastidiousness of the cleaning regime.
A buildup of ropellant dust, in the case of recieving an impact such as a 15in shell, will disperse into the air and instantly become a fuel air bomb just waiting for another shock or flame to set it off.
So an AP shell crashing into 7" of steel launches the dust into the air and the shell detonation ignites it.
It may not have even required penetration of the barbett as the crystals that formed were found to be much more volatile than the fresh produced cordite that they tested.
Add to that that (most of) the BC's where likely not adhering to the safe ammunition handling practices anyway do to Adm. Beatty's insistence on a extremely high rate of fire (due to their home port not being conducive to long range accuracy training), which is why we have crew testimony that (at least during training, and you tend to practice what you train) many safety measures had been bypassed (like the ammunition hoists flash doors being jammed/left open). And it is notable that several of the newest arrivals to the fleet, who didn't have time to pick up any bad habits, took 100+ hits (including many to their turrets) and suffered only minor damage from them.
When you started talking about the roll on ferries I was already thinking of SS Princess Victoria. She sailed at that time to keep to British Rail times despite the terrible conditions. All survivors were the fittest men and no women or children survived. The Lifeboat that rescued the survivors still exists and is being preserved in a Carpark in Doughadee, Northern Ireland.
See my comment above. Profits before safety still goes on. For example our buses were sent out in blizzard conditions and I was nearly stranded. Luckily I made it back, but it was a dangerous journey and I was getting very cold by the time I reached my own car in order to drive home!
@@rob5944 It was the same with Estonia. And also with the Jan Heweliusz in 1993.
@@timothyjoksch crews not being given enough time to do their jobs properly?
@rob5944 running through whether the ship wasn't made for.
@@timothyjoksch ah, I see.
I'm from Sweden and I remember the Estonia accident so well. In the town where I live there is a memorial plaque for the people who died. Here in Sweden there are still theories how this accident happened and that the official investigation doesn't tell the truth....
Something dodgy with the official narrative, if it was Russia responsible, then we would’ve known by now, but that they aren’t blaming Russia, then you have to ask what NATO hand played in this incident.
If there's another story in this series, it could examine the loss of two LCGs (Landing Craft Gun) in 1943. These craft were originally built as tank landing craft, and had been modified to carry two 4.7 inch guns. LCG 15 and LCG 16 were caught in a storm off the Welsh coast and sank because part of their upper deck had not been covered when the modifications were carried out, causing them to flood and sink with heavy loss of life.
One major flaw in the Estonia's design was that her superstructure extended ahead of the bridge, so that it completely blocked its view of the bow. This is another reason why the crew didn't notice that the visor was coming loose.
I went on the Estonia about a year before she sank. I can’t believe it’s been 30 years already.
I was on board Estonia once as a kid when it was in port in Stockholm cause my sister worked for the company that owned Estonia. She personally knew a fair few of the bridge crew.
For over 30 years, I've been riding on double-sided Ro-Ro ferries, operated by Washington State Ferries. None of them have bow doors (perhaps some of the earliest incarnations of the "Mosquito Fleet" did before the State system took over), but on the other hand- despite operating in nothing-but Pacific Ocean seawater- the natural shape of Puget Sound's roughly-horseshoe shape provides a lot of protection from wind and larger wave action.
That said, I have been on WSF a number of times during rough seas over the decades, and- yes- there have been times when water has rushed over the bow! _But,_ I am never concerned, because they have many drainage holes and unseen pumps ready-to-go, and to-date no double-ended Ro-Ro has _ever_ sunken due to adverse weather. WSF also has regulations in-place for all of their ferries when storm conditions arise, and so there have been times when routes have shut-down.
Estonia is one of my favourite ships in history (idk why) so I’m SO glad your talking about it!
Mine too, definitely not the prettiest or most interesting ships, it's more the story and tragedy that seemed to follow her until she sank, like two different murders on the ship some years before the sinking.
The continued evolution of RoRo ferries is interesting to see given the constant need to transport people and goods as efficiently as possible. Unfortunately speed took precedence in cases such as the Herald of Free Enterprise. Apparently because it was so shallow the squat effect was partly responsible in allowing water into the ship.
Another great episode, awesome channel 👌
That and the fact that she was trimmed by the head.
note to self. check the weather forecast and seas report prior to loading onto any ferry!
Learned of Estonia a few years ago, glad to know you allowed more ears to hear her story, Mike!!
Loved the video, very well done. However; small mistake I found at 10:05. The thickness of the armor of the Invincible's barbettes is listed as 9 inches, the same thickness as the SMS Seydlitz's barbettes. Though, the centimeter and dialogue description are correct. just a minor typo on the inches.
Again, I love your videos and every you do, keep up the great work have a good day
I saw that same small tiny mistake, which btw did in ANY WAY take away from this amazing video
Some RORO ferries have a semi-sealed car deck, so that even if water enters that part of the ship, it can't migrate to the lower sections of the hull and is drained out via scuppers. This has it's own limitations of course, since it means that either crew in the hull (i.e. engineering) have difficulty accessing the upper part of the ship. This can sometimes be minimized by having sealed dedicated stairwells that bypass the car deck
As a Finn living in Turku, I can still remember how my mother walked me to see the helicopters bringing victims of Estonia, which were landing at Hellpad next to our local hospital.
Helicopters look so cool, but afterward, I have understood how tragic and devastating it all was
just found this channel, as a 2nd office cruise vessel, sometimes i think about how many things we have today is due to many disasters...
Despite only being seven years old at the time, I remember the Herald of Free Enterprise incident well. It dominated the news for about a week. Made me quite scared of ferries for a few years and I didn't go on one after that until 1992.
After that episode if you travelled on a ferry you would hear the captain make a public announcement that the doors were closed before leaving the berth.
Love the SS Badger drawing, I have many fond memories of family day trips on that ferry
0:02 REALLY😮
Its a change to see you covering a ferry, its nice though especially given how much I like them (the pfp might be a giveaway)
A missed opportunity to mention the further evolution of bow doors; gone is the upward swinging visor and in its place a 2 piece door arrangement that utilises the very force threatening to rip it open. Ask n to the design of a boradhead arrow tip; you have 2 halves/sides that come together to close and, much like how arch bridges get increased strength thanks to the keystone, the force of the water trying to get in, actually makes it harder, allowing it to take the types of pounding waves that, in days of yore, would've ripped the visor off and flooded the ship. A small point in the grand scale of this video but vital nonetheless. Keep up the cracking content
Quick note on Battlecruisers in WW1; Jutland was not the first time Battlecruisers traded fire with each other. That was the Battle of the Dogger Bank 4 months prior, when the British Battlecruiser squadron intercepted the German Battlecruiser squadron on its way to raid the coast of England. This battle led to the sinking of a German Cruiser and one German Battlecruiser was damaged.
From bad ship looks to Faulty designs thank you Mike
A little note on the battlecruisers:
Seydlitz suffered the hit described at 9:30 not at Jutland but a year prior in 1915 at Dogger Bank, though she does suffer similar hits in Jutland, the Germans for their credit investigated what happened after Dogger Bank and implemented anti-flash protections which would save their ships from the fates suffered by the British Battlecruisers.
Edit: Included Timestamp and fixed some spelling errors.
It's so refreshing to hear actual human narration instead of a cursed robo-voice.
The fact that its almost 30 years (Exactly 30 in September) since Estonia sank and when that happened I would have been all of 8 months old when it happened.
Thanks Mr. Brady. A great video to be sure. My Dad, who was a ship and navy enthusiast, always said the Battlecruiser is a compromise of the wrong kind.
We took the Badger across Lake Michigan a few years ago. It was great fun, but it satisfied any wisp of desire I had ever had for taking a cruise. The lake was calm, the sky clear, my mal de mer well in hand, but looking a just water for a couple hours....nope. Glad we did it, the coal fired old girl was great, bringing back pleasant memories of steam engines and locomotives.
When that happened, I thought of the last car to board the previous ferry, the first car on that ship, the last one on that ship, and the first one on what would be the next ferry. And the people in those cars.
"There's something wrong with our bloody ships today." Characteristic British understatement!
12:55 It was revolutionary for *automobiles* only. Rolling carriages on ships has been used widely for railcars back in the early 1900s and even before. Like for instance the railcar ferries on the Great Lakes in the US. The Pere Marquette Line Ferries come to my mind, which operated from 1897 until its merger in 1947, operating 13 ferries by then. With some notable losses of course, because poor and violent weather conditions on the Great Lakes would not stand far behind that of "open sea" on oceans. You did show the "S. S. Badger" from 1952, which is the last coal-fired / piston engine powered Great Lake ferry. Its predecessors date way back to the end of the 19th century. Thanks for sharing !
20:32 I remember this when it played out in the news, being from Kent, England. However, the ferry met its demise travelling FROM Zeebrugge on its way to Dover.
The one thing a battle cruiser was never supposed to do was take on a battleship. Or, another battlecruiser that had battleship caliber guns. In 1916 they tried it. Didn't end very well
It's like asking a self-propelled artillery piece to perform the duties of/fight a tank. It ain't going to end well for the SPA and it's shrapnel/small arms only armour, despite (probably, most SPA guns are 90-155mm, most modern tanks have 105-130mm guns) having a similar sized gun.
Your vast vocabulary, calm demeanor, and sorted appearance really takes the sting out of "intelligent" people being reckless, in peace and war.
I live on an Island that heavily relies on 3 different ferry services to travel to the mainland US that have a total of 10 car loading ferry vessels, some of which are so old they served in WW2 on D-Day and the most modern vessel was built in the late 90's. I've taken trips on these ferries at least over 100 times and never thought of anything of it and now after seeing this video I'm kinda scared. Next time I go on one I might sit on the upper deck as close as I can get to the life vest and life boats/rafts
finally you talk about ms estonia. You could say that the bow visor couldn't be seen from the bridge
My Dad spent WW2 as a Stoker in the RCN & RN aboard various LST's, aka Long Slow Targets. I'd love to hear your take on this class of vessel.
Great vlog! Very interesting and well presented. Thanks for posting!
✌🏻👍🏻✌🏻
The loss of the three cruisers in the Battle of Jutland sadly was echoed decades later in the first years of WW2: The loss of the battlecruiser HMS Hood when engaged in combat with the Bismark and Prinz Eugen.
More on Invincible class' doctrine:
We see Invincible class' armor was considered inadequate by the time of Jutland, but they were drafted way back to 1905, when heavy AP shells were still not effective against the new Harvey and Krupp armor, and was reflected on the Battle of Tsushima of the same year.
Fisher had anticipated Invincible class to have the armor enough to hold against battleship caliber shells from long range (＞10000m), and based on this concept, they can, theoretically, engage enemy heavy units with their superior speed, and take up favorable position ahead of enemy's reaction (which they somewhat did successfully during Jutland).
Fisher really hoped battlecruisers to be the new standard of the navy (in his own words, these were real form of fast battleships), however, the upgrade of naval techonology was just too fast. By the time of Jutland, Invincible's 7in turret armor could be easily penetrated by German 11in and 12in guns, which resulted in her destruction (The loss of the newer Queen Mary was another story of course). History would eventually see fast battleships succed battlecruisers, just not in the way that Fisher wanted.
I have traveled with Ms Estonia several times in my childhood in the 90s. Sailed once in a heavy storm between Vasa and Umeå in the Gulf of Bothnia when she was called Wasa King. Scary in retrospect.
We had our cabin forward in the ship and I could see the bow visor straight out our cabin window.
She was a really nice ferry for her time but terrible with everything that happened afterwards.
Design is key on ensuring a ship’s survival and success
Along w/ crew
and the front not falling off
@@MemekingJag But the bloody front fell off!
So is water
I know they're not practical for anything longer than an hour (and for many locations), but it seems the 'floating bridge' chain ferry style of car ferry is much safer in terms of not taking on water. Put the embark/disembark points high on each end of the route, then put the cars on the top of the hull. The 'hole' does not go below the waterline.
Of course, chain ferries cause their own problems (mostly that the chains can disrupt other shipping).
There are car ferries that do not have doors in the bow or stem. The ferries of the Alaska marine line use a car elevator to get cars into them from the top. This design allows the Tustumena to brave the Alucian chain.
Please do a full video on M/S Estonia!!!
Oooh! This is my kind of video! I love hearing about how ship design improved over time due to disasters like these! New information for me to learn! Keep it up! 😁