Can you grow Koji without a spore starter (with Sandor Katz)
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- Опубліковано 22 тра 2024
- Welcome to the 2 Guys & A cooler Channel. Today we explore the possibility of growing Koji using a "Wild Fermentation" Method. For this video I thought that it would be fun to get my friend and fellow zymologist to join us and share his thoughts about this topic. Get ready as Sandor Katz, author of Wild Fermentation and The Art of fermentation makes a guest appearance on the channel.
Sandor's Interview: 0:27
Growing Koji using "Wild Fermentation" method: 7:44
Be sure to visit Sandor Katz's website at: www.wildfermentation.com/ Here you can learn and book a spot at his upcoming seminars, intensive workshops, and upcoming events.
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If you live outside the US and are looking for a Koji Starter be sure to check out this company. It is a Japanese Company that ships koji world wide: www.higuchi-m.co.jp/english/in...
If you live in the US and would like a koji kin starter click here: www.gemcultures.com/soy_cultur...
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Eric
Thanks for the vids...
F ucking finally some real informative about Koji damn it WENT people's ask about what is Koji they literally want to KNOW what is Koji and NOT something that use 'Koji Starter' and thank GOD here someone actually explains clearly what Koji is THANK YOU...
Awesome video! I'm an amateur mycologist and besides a few modifications on sterile procedure and proper isolation I'm totally going to follow this. Great work!
what modifications did you make specifically?
@@_The_God_King_ a few
Since you are a mycologist I thought maybe you could answer my question I asked that wasn't answered about storing the starter without a fridge. I'm assuming mold would die if you dehydrated it like a dried yeast culture. Is this true? or could you low temp dehydrate the koji mold starter and not need to store in fridge?
@@MrMcGillicuddy normally Koji starters are dried. Low Tek if you let your culture sporulate (see color) and low temp dry the grain, you can store it without a fridge.
@@thomasedible7419 awesome. thanks
Very helpful, especially for places where there's absolutely no access to koji, or if there is, it's ridiculously expensive.
Thank you!!
what places lack koji?
@@andiarrohnds5163 probably North Korea
@@andiarrohnds5163 my country lol, Indonesia. I tried to cobvert cassava starch to alcohol using koji and yeast.
Brasil, I barely found it and they're charging a thousand bucks
I had so MANY doubts! And I was Blown Away by how Great this Video was! Thank You!
Exactly what I wanted to know. Thanks.
I love that I was going to leave a comment of praise but I was beaten to it. Excellent video, very helpful resource for anyone learning about koji.
Awesome Video mate. I love making stuff from scratch. I wanted to make Sake and this video has become my starting point. Thank you so much
17.12 " Unvisible "..
Is that like invisible ?
I loved your experimenting with koji without starter...😍✍️🙏
That was really amazing. I am very impressed with the research and time you put into learning about the koji origin. Also u have taken it a step further and showed us the results practically. Great video from you :)
Fantastic. love your work here. thanks for making this.
Gotta say, I got here after exploring a bit of "The Art of Fermentation", and this video is spectacular. Very thorough and clean approach, keeping us up to date on all the details. Really loved it, thanks man!
That is very nice. Informative and with all possible precautions voiced. Definitely worth trying.
Great, excellent, fanstastic, super perseverance, brother you are good.
Great great video! It's such a pleasure listening to Sandon.
Your channel rocks! Keep it up! 🥰
Thank You. I agree. Sandor is a wealth of information!!
@@2guysandacooler If you really want koji try this. Hit mortar to each and every goose berry then keep it in a big bowl for 3-4 days then you see white snd green mold pure aspergilus then remove seed and make paste out of gooseberry then add your boiled soybeans thats it miso ready after sometime.. In india we just add mustard seeds, green chillies, roast fenugreek seeds all grinded, salt to that it comes out as delicious pickle after 2 weeks ready to eat, can be aged for decades the more it age more valuable its. It taste just similar to miso., many Indians probably dont even know this now lost these traditional foods and culture now. In olden days everyone is poor only brahmins have this pickle when someone sick or get fever they ask this pickle from them they give it..
I'm starting making koji from starter very soon, after hopefully a success I will also try this method. That's brilliant.
Perfect. This was actually what I've been looking for. I couldn't find Koji for my homemade sakē. Hope this works.
Extremely interesting video. I've never heard of Koji. You always manage to impart just the right balance of explanation and demonstration. You have a great style and must be a natural teacher.
Hi Paula. Thanks for such a nice comment!! Koji is such a fascinating fungus that's used heavily in Eastern Cultures. I am almost finished with my Japanese Sake project and Koji was the most critical ingredient in making it. Talk about interesting. Thank you for watching and commenting!!
Love it. I'm so down this koji rabbit hole and this is just so damn fascinating!
It is a wild world of Koji. I'm currently growing it on coffee to see what happens to the flavor of the coffee. Talk about interesting!!
@@2guysandacooler please tell us your results.
Love it, very complete ✨
I believe that the amount of Aspergillus oryzae fungus inoculated into rice may interfere with the growth of other fungi, as they all compete for the same food. Thanks for sharing your experiments!
Thank you! I follow your instructions and i got it! I have a rice vinegar going and tamari going and of course amazake...very happy with results . I did start my tamari april 26 ...so will take longer to the final product by so far it is going well. Amazake was delicious...I will start second very soon. And vinegar will be ready in few weeks
So informative, thank you!
You are brilliant in explaining things in approachable way. I'm really glad I stumble upon it! Is there any video that you explain more precisely how you've built your humid/temperature keeping box?
Now that you mention it I don't think I do. I'll see if I can make that video this weekend..
very excellent. just what I was looking for. who'd have guessed corn husk. amazing. ❤
Amazing content! Cheers from Denmark!
Thank you!!
Eric you are best coach / teacher on koji starter . I followed your instructions .My first trial was a little success but the 2nd one was successful God bless you
That's excellent to hear!!! Congratulations!
I found some similar looking green mold growing on old rice of mine recently. I remembered this video so I was a bit excited I might have A. oryzae, but then I took a look at it under a microscope, and while I am not a microbiologist or anything, it was *definitely* not any Aspergillus species and looked to me like a Penicillium species...! Unfortunately it doesn't seem as easy as I had hoped lol
Awesome....ive wanted to know this for a long time
Thanks a lot for sharing this profound information, very helpful. I'm planning to get myself additionally into microscopy, so I can be sure at a maximum but to intoxicate myself or others 👍
Especially the hint about colours is great 😉😉
Amazing video, Sir. Thanks!👍
If you really want koji try this. Hit mortar to each and every goose berry then keep it in a big bowl for 3-4 days then you see white snd green mold pure aspergilus then remove seed and make paste out of gooseberry then add your boiled soybeans thats it miso ready after sometime.. In india we just add mustard seeds, green chillies, roast fenugreek seeds all grinded, salt to that it comes out as delicious pickle after 2 weeks ready to eat, can be aged for decades the more it age more valuable its. It taste just similar to miso., many Indians probably dont even know this now lost these traditional foods and culture now. In olden days everyone is poor only brahmins have this pickle when someone sick or get fever they ask this pickle from them they give it..
Thank you for sharing your traditional way to make miso in india. I am impressed, ma'am.
Amazing...you did a great job...thanks
If you really want koji try this. Hit mortar to each and every goose berry then keep it in a big bowl for 3-4 days then you see white snd green mold pure aspergilus then remove seed and make paste out of gooseberry then add your boiled soybeans thats it miso ready after sometime.. In india we just add mustard seeds, green chillies, roast fenugreek seeds all grinded, salt to that it comes out as delicious pickle after 2 weeks ready to eat, can be aged for decades the more it age more valuable its. It taste just similar to miso., many Indians probably dont even know this now lost these traditional foods and culture now. In olden days everyone is poor only brahmins have this pickle when someone sick or get fever they ask this pickle from them they give it..
That was a useful tips thanks s a lot
This was awesome thank you
Thank you
Im super excited after 48 hours to find all my 6 bundles of wrapped koji were full of spores and bluish . There isnt any bright colors spores at all. Ill try to upload the photo , Tq very much for your awesome video.
Gratitude 🙏 and Blessings 🙌.
In case you haven't gotten tired of hearing it. Amazing video
Thank you!!!
Recently I got Aspergillus from Japanese Miso. When I got that green color I ran to my laptop looking for more information how to be sure it is aspergillus, thanks a lot for this content! Now I can continue with my project
Thanks you very much!
Great!!!! Just amaizing
I left some rice in the fridge in a container for a long time. It is now covered with green spores. I have used some spores to make koji rice. Trust it will work.
Hi
How are you?
I should tell you..
Now I understand why you once asked me whether the smell of koji spores is like a packet of flowers
The smell of koji spoers that I showed you is exactly like packet of flowers.
It's really wonderful
Yes, yes, yes congratulations! What a wonderful accomplishment. I can't wait to hear about all the things you will make with Koji,
Very interesting, I worked with Koji rice 30 years ago making miso and Amazake. That was in Holland. I am now in Argentina making Sourdough, Sauerkraut and just started making Tempeh, I have bee looking into doing some KOJI work again. This might just get me up and running. Excellent information. Stay safe.
Nice. Thanks for the comment!!
@Allister Santoro Hola, maybe it is possible to get it here. They ,make Organic Miso. When the quarantine settles down I will see if they will sell some. facebook.com/organicosasaki/
If you really want koji try this. Hit mortar to each and every goose berry then keep it in a big bowl for 3-4 days then you see white snd green mold pure aspergilus then remove seed and make paste out of gooseberry then add your boiled soybeans thats it miso ready after sometime.. In india we just add mustard seeds, green chillies, roast fenugreek seeds all grinded, salt to that it comes out as delicious pickle after 2 weeks ready to eat, can be aged for decades the more it age more valuable its. It taste just similar to miso., many Indians probably dont even know this now lost these traditional foods and culture now. In olden days everyone is poor only brahmins have this pickle when someone sick or get fever they ask this pickle from them they give it..
@@jayzz2451 very interesting Thanks
@jayzz2451 hello can you help me bhai?
Super interesting video! will there be a huge difference between Chinese yeast balls made of rice and koji, in the making of miso?
Thanks for the excellent information and video.
this is a killer video, I pretty much love anything fermented or to do with fungus. You should look into huitlacoche aka corn smut next.
What!!!!! huitlacoche is ridiculous!! I tried to see where I could buy some spores but I didn't find any. Have you grown it or tried it? It looks awesome and a little scary!! I'm going to ask a few farmers that I know this weekend to see if they have that fungus growing on their farms!! Totally crazy! Thanks for letting me know about that...
@@2guysandacooler I just found out about it a week ago. You van buy it on amazon
I saw that as well. I'd rather grow it if I could... If I can't grow it I'll order some and make a freezer meal with it or something..
@@2guysandacooler I'd say find a local farmer that has some and contaminate the soil of your sweet corn,,you may get lucky...lol, you may even find a way to cultivate it, as you can see it sells for a pretty penny.
It is indeed a killer video, doing this can kill you. "Wild" koji is totally unsafe and contains potent carcinogens.
brilliant
thank you
If you really want koji try this. Hit mortar to each and every goose berry then keep it in a big bowl for 3-4 days then you see white snd green mold pure aspergilus then remove seed and make paste out of gooseberry then add your boiled soybeans thats it miso ready after sometime.. In india we just add mustard seeds, green chillies, roast fenugreek seeds all grinded, salt to that it comes out as delicious pickle after 2 weeks ready to eat, can be aged for decades the more it age more valuable its. It taste just similar to miso., many Indians probably dont even know this now lost these traditional foods and culture now. In olden days everyone is poor only brahmins have this pickle when someone sick or get fever they ask this pickle from them they give it..
Amazing video. So, if I understood correctly, if you do the same thing with the black mold you will isolate Rhizopus Oligosporus and thus get Tempeh starter?
that is correct :)
@@2guysandacooler Couldn't you also end up with toxic black mold though? I assume that is a different mold (but also black)?
@@jonathanberry9502 Technically possible, but the Rhizopus oligosporus is a co-habitant with koji so if you are getting koji (fluffy white sweet scented) then the black mold growing with it is almost certainly Ro.
Like they said here most of the *really* toxic molds are brightly colored, black mold is generally an irritant at worst.
Thank you for this video. This is the first time I watched one of your videos, I love Sandor Katz and I have his book on Wild Fermentation. But the biggest reason I am thankful for this video is the identification of undesirable or dangerous molds. I am currently trying to gather Indigenous Microorganisms (IMO's) for Korean Natural Farming, I have failed 3 times now with my rice being contaminated with the red mold you were dealing with in your Koji. It comes out looking like it was made with strawberries where someone had picked out the berries and left the stain. The curious part is that they were spaced apart an inch or so throughout the batch, almost like it was done on purpose. I was wondering if the contaminant came in the rice or was it from my atmosphere? I didn't hear if you said the name of it, but I am curious.
this is the video I've been waiting for!!!!!!!, really thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!, so bad it's a bit dangerous, by the way, what can happen to you if you eat that other mushroom? I'll try it anyway :P
That's a great question. I was wondering the same thing.
What can happen to you is you die. Toxic aspergillus is indistinguishable from koji (even by lab testing) and produces one of the most potent carcinogens known. Please do not follow the instructions in this video.
Not a mushroom. Its a fungi. Different branches of the family. Fungi is my enemy when growing oyster mushroom mycelium.
If you really want koji try this. Hit mortar to each and every goose berry then keep it in a big bowl for 3-4 days then you see white snd green mold pure aspergilus then remove seed and make paste out of gooseberry then add your boiled soybeans thats it miso ready after sometime.. In india we just add mustard seeds, green chillies, roast fenugreek seeds all grinded, salt to that it comes out as delicious pickle after 2 weeks ready to eat, can be aged for decades the more it age more valuable its. It taste just similar to miso., many Indians probably dont even know this now lost these traditional foods and culture now. In olden days everyone is poor only brahmins have this pickle when someone sick or get fever they ask this pickle from them they give it..
Does he have a video on making his incubation chamber with the temperature and humidity controls?
Это видео поставило точку. Спасибо
They get aspergillus oryzae from rice straw from the rice fields in Asia.
This was a great video, thank you. I still haven't been able to find answers to this particular question though and I was wondering whether you might be able to help?
Once you've made koji, either with a koji spore starter or your own homegrown koji spores, can you then keep some of that koji to use a starter for you next batch of koji? and if this is possible, what is the process in storing the koji, do you need to dry it or just freeze it? How would you go about doing that?
If your koji is fresh you can propagate it with more koji rice. The best way though is to produce spores and save the spores. I dry then refrigerate my koji rice as freezing isn't recommended
Hey, what the different between aspergillus oryzae and aspergillus flavus?
hello sir. very useful video thanks for that, just one question, how can i build that humidity/temp. compartment?
I will be making a video soon an how to build a fermentation chamber.. Be sure to sub..
@@2guysandacooler already subscribed for sure. i will wait for it, thank u
So the koji was already on the corn bundle? Your video is one of the most informative. Thanks!
Man i don't have sanitized de rice flour.... I hope that this doesn't goes wrong. Tomorrow i will see if it will be alright.
Yes. The koji is already on the corn husk... It's been a couple days. How did your koji turn out?
@@2guysandacooler i think that my "seed" was to week. It didn't grow to much. I'm trying into corn starch now.
@@2guysandacooler Hey I have a look right now and it formed beautiful under the dried rice of the surface. Underneath is a beautiful mold with a lot of spores! I will save half and make another grow to have a nice formation. I found out the i put to much rice in the first attempt. I will try to grow with pure corn starch flour. Thank you. I will give you more reports!!!
If you really want koji try this. Hit mortar to each and every goose berry then keep it in a big bowl for 3-4 days then you see white snd green mold pure aspergilus then remove seed and make paste out of gooseberry then add your boiled soybeans thats it miso ready after sometime.. In india we just add mustard seeds, green chillies, roast fenugreek seeds all grinded, salt to that it comes out as delicious pickle after 2 weeks ready to eat, can be aged for decades the more it age more valuable its. It taste just similar to miso., many Indians probably dont even know this now lost these traditional foods and culture now. In olden days everyone is poor only brahmins have this pickle when someone sick or get fever they ask this pickle from them they give it..
Hi. To prepare miso, can we replace the kitchen salt for light version (50% of potassium chloride and 50% of sodium chloride) ? Do potassium chloride also preserve foods like sodium chloride? What I mean is: What is the lowest sodium misso possible to do on home?
Is there any difference between the A. oryzae and flavus spores?
Is these koji harvested from wild, corn, better to breakup protein or break starchs?
Hi!
Can that kōji usable for sake?
The red and orange parts are no kōji?
Great video!
Hello. You can use this for sake and all the colorful molds are not koji. Only the green
3:20 Koji without starter: By using a Corn Husk.
(Sandor had 50% success rate personally.)
His recommendation: Use a starter _if_ aren't familiar with the taste and smell yet.
(Otherwise it's hard to tell if you succeeded.)
If you really want koji try this. Hit mortar to each and every goose berry then keep it in a big bowl for 3-4 days then you see white snd green mold pure aspergilus then remove seed and make paste out of gooseberry then add your boiled soybeans thats it miso ready after sometime.. In india we just add mustard seeds, green chillies, roast fenugreek seeds all grinded, salt to that it comes out as delicious pickle after 2 weeks ready to eat, can be aged for decades the more it age more valuable its. It taste just similar to miso., many Indians probably dont even know this now lost these traditional foods and culture now. In olden days everyone is poor only brahmins have this pickle when someone sick or get fever they ask this pickle from them they give it..
Thank you for the information. If I could buy koji rice and made Shio Koji, could I keep it indefinitely in a jar in the fridge and just add cooked rice and some water to keep the fermentation going?
That's a very interesting question. I don't know. In theory if the conditions are right and you kept giving the Koji food then it might possibly work. If you try it please let me know the results....
this reminds me of this game girls used to play in germany, where the girls in my class made a dough named Hermann with this yeast and they gave it more and more feed and kept him alive like that, like a pet, and they gifted their friends the 'children' of their original Hermann and it was alround a pretty odd thing but a great bonding experience i guess.
If you really want koji try this. Hit mortar to each and every goose berry then keep it in a big bowl for 3-4 days then you see white snd green mold pure aspergilus then remove seed and make paste out of gooseberry then add your boiled soybeans thats it miso ready after sometime.. In india we just add mustard seeds, green chillies, roast fenugreek seeds all grinded, salt to that it comes out as delicious pickle after 2 weeks ready to eat, can be aged for decades the more it age more valuable its. It taste just similar to miso., many Indians probably dont even know this now lost these traditional foods and culture now. In olden days everyone is poor only brahmins have this pickle when someone sick or get fever they ask this pickle from them they give it..
Badass!
Can koji be made from other millets like sorghum or pearl mille??
is it possible to do this with other grains besides rice?
how much does the koji starter cost and the shipping in higuchi moyaschi to Colombia
Beautiful koji! What did you use it for?😅
Thanks for sharing this, Erick! I have done this for the first time and my results were apparently fine. Green spores over the rice in the final both batches. It's just that the smell is kinda weird, like humid and bitter, just a little bit sweet. I have made a first batch with the spores and the smell is the same, but the rice is getting white and green just in small parts. What does that mean? Greetings from México!
Any news on that? I'm planning to try it but I'm a bit scared about getting toxic mold
Toxic Aspergillus, probably
please a question: can koji spores be obtained to inoculate rice starting from kome koji? If I previously mix it with rice flour and move it in the mill with a milino of coffee? thank you!
It depends on how fresh it is. I've never been able to get it to go to spores from store bought kome.
Why are looking for aspergillus oryzae on corn husks when they live on, surprise, rice?
Hello! Amazing video. One question. Is it posible tp dry and save the koji you grow to use in the future? Basically in the same way you create a sourdough starter.
Absolutely. That's the best way to propagate it. Just make sure the koji has sporulated (green spores). This will be your seeds for more koji :)
If you really want koji try this. Hit mortar to each and every goose berry then keep it in a big bowl for 3-4 days then you see white snd green mold pure aspergilus then remove seed and make paste out of gooseberry then add your boiled soybeans thats it miso ready after sometime.. In india we just add mustard seeds, green chillies, roast fenugreek seeds all grinded, salt to that it comes out as delicious pickle after 2 weeks ready to eat, can be aged for decades the more it age more valuable its. It taste just similar to miso., many Indians probably dont even know this now lost these traditional foods and culture now. In olden days everyone is poor only brahmins have this pickle when someone sick or get fever they ask this pickle from them they give it..
very nice video , thanks for sharing this video ...... god bless you ...... ! alhamdulillah .........
Thank you. If you try this please let me know how it turns out for you..
@@2guysandacooler sooner i'll try to catch koji from wild like the way in your video , thank u very much from Indonesia . god bless you and all family ...
I was convinced to make koji at home. I watched your video and a few other rice koji making videos. I tried twice. I think I failed both times. The first time I rushed to start and only soaked the rice (Calrose medium) for 5 hours, drained for 15 minutes. Then I steamed the rice in my toaster with steaming feature. The rice looked pretty dry after one hour so I steamed for longer. I invested in a bread proofer just hoping it would be less work for me monitoring the humidity and temperature. I only wrapped the rice in 2 layers of cheesecloth and did not put a piece of Sara wrap on top. I set the bread proofer to 93'F. It took about 24 hours for the rice to reach 105'F for the first time. I unwrapped it and the rice was dry (did not clump up at all) and I saw only very little mold growing. I mixed it up and cooled it down to 95'F and wrapped it up again. After that the temp got up to 105'F fairly quickly, like every 3 hours. I had to cool it down so many times. The rice never got to the point clumping up at all. I figured I should start a new batch just because I didn't do it right to start with. And by the way, the rice smelled like activated yeast, not chestnut or sweet rice.
The second time I soaked the rice (600 g) for 15 hours, drained 2 hours, steamed 1 hour on stove top steamer, inoculated with 5 g of koji starter. I bought on Amazon and now I suspect that what I bought wasn't koji kin as described. Instead it could be ground up koji rice because the powder is white, not even pale green. And that was why I did not add sanitized rice flour to it ( www.amazon.com/Koji-Starter-Steak-Sake-Spore/dp/B07KCLMY5H/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=koji+kin&qid=1570610201&sr=8-3 ) Anyway, this time I put a big tray of water in the bread proofer so the humidity was much higher. The rice got to 105'F in about 20 hours. Again, there was no clumps whatsoever even though there were more traces of mold on rice. And again, after cooling it to 95'F, the rice got up to 105'F quickly. I turned down the proofer to 90'F and had to cool the rice 4 more times. Every time the rice was very loose. I had sprayed water on rice and on the cheesecloth to keep it moist. I even lay a Sara wrap on top. No matter what I did, the rice just didn't clump up like all the videos I watched. And the rice started out smelling right but after 2, 3 times, it started to smell like yeast again. What did I do wrong? Please advise! I do not want to give up!!! Thank you in advance! And last but not least, since it did not form a block, I didn't know when to stop the fermentation. It's just frustrating.
Hello Ivy. I love your fighting spirit. Thanks for letting me know your process and before I begin I want to encourage you to take a deep breath and keep at it. It will be so rewarding when you finally get it. There are several different types of Aspergillus Oryze. Each one producing different types of enzymes so depending on what you are going to make you might choose a koji that produces lots of Amylase enzymes. For this project though we are not going to worry about that. Most of the koji spores are green but there is 1 that produces white spores. This may be the version you have. Koji needs moisture to survive. If the temp is too high, if the humidity is to low, or if the rice is not wet enough your koji will be very stressed and possibly die. The biggest issue I see from others making koji is the rice. Generally it's too dry. The process is this. Rinse the rice very well. The water should run clear. This will remove excess starch. Next Soak the rice for 12-15 hours. This will soften the rice. Then steam the rice by placing a cheesecloth in your stovetop steamer, add your soaked rice, close the cheesecloth, and cover. Let steam for 45 minutes to an hour. About half way through I like to mix the rice around so that it steams evenly. After 45 minutes taste the rice. You should be able to easily cut the grain with your fingernail. Continue steaming till you achieve this. Allow the rice to cool the sanitize some rice flour For 600 grams of rice I would only use about 1/4 cup of rice flour.. Allow that to cool. Mix your spores with the rice flour and when everything is below 100F toss it all together. Place the newly inoculated rice on some cheese cloth and put it on a tray. Cover with seran but leave 2 sides open.
Here's where we are going to change your process a little bit. Next time you make koji ferment it at 84F. Be sure your humidity is 90-95%. When you ferment at 84F you won't have to worry about it getting too hot so don't disturb it. Koji takes 48 hours to fully colonize and a 72 hours it will have formed spores. So for you I would check it at 40-48 hours. If you leave it in longer then you'll get spores and that a good thing also if you want more koji kin :)
If your rice is too wet then the koji will not want to penetrate the rice as it has all the water it needs on the surface. So having the right moisture level in your rice is critical. We get clumps when we make koji because our koji has penetrated the rice and has developed a strong colony within the grains. If your rice is too dry then the koji wont grow well either. If you want an inexpensive way to check your humidity and temperature I recommend this little tool. I have 4 of them and it helps me adjust my environment as necessary. It's called a Pocket Temp/Humidity Meter: www.thermoworks.com/Pocket-TH-RT819?tw=2GUYSACOOLER. Let me know if this helps on your next batch..
@@2guysandacooler Hi Eric, I'm so grateful for your response. I will certainly try again and let you know the outcome. Meanwhile, can I still use the rice koji I made? Like I said both batches smell like yeast (not pleasant) and the rice in the second batch taste sweet and sour. Is it safe to use or should I toss them out? I'm currently drying them on baking sheets. And when I try again, 1. is Calrose medium grain ok or should I buy short grain and 2. should I stop the process after 48 hours no matter if it clumps or not? Thank you!
Thanks Ivy. That's a hard question for me to answer. Not being able to see it and smell it makes it hard. I say toss it if you are unsure that what you have is a good healthy koji mold. Medium Grain is fine, I like working with jasmine rice personally.. If everything went according to plan then at 48 hours it should be completely finished. Be sure to get something to measure the humidity and temperature in the proofer. Does your proofer have a fan?
@@2guysandacooler I knew that was a dumb question. I just feel sick in the stomach that I have to toss so much rice and a week worth of hard work. I'm Chinese and was raised that we can't waste even one grain of rice in our bowl. My dad will punish me when we meet again in heaven. LOL...
The proofer I purchased doesn't have a fan (see link below). It is relatively small and wouldn't have room to put a fan inside either, I think. But I haven't seen anyone from all other videos I have watch used a fan. This proofing box doesn't seal all the way around. It's foldable so I assume air and moisture can escape from all the sides. I'll try one more time this weekend. I asked my husband to make me a wooden tray instead of using stainless steel trays l have used. Hopefully that will help with balancing the moisture.
www.williams-sonoma.com/products/brod-and-taylor-folding-proofer-and-slow-cooker/?catalogId=69&sku=5463356&cm_ven=PLA&cm_cat=Google&cm_pla=Electrics%20%3E%20Slow%20Cookers%20%26%20Pressure%20Cookers%20%3E%20Slow%20Cookers&cm_ite=5463356&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrfvsBRD7ARIsAKuDvMNa_LxQpMdu4EHQL9qHls7XLC_PgwwnZpST0b0Ml-G2vO56MjCdY1EaAjzREALw_wcB
I live in the tropics, so hot and humid and I grew koji in my attic. Nevertheless, the first batch turned out AWESOME! Basically I grew up koji rice (Miyako Koji Rice I bought online) on 500 g long grain rice that was spread out on a sanitized aluminum cookie sheet. The key was to keep it all spread out and to stir it each day with sanitized spoon. No cheese cloth or anything. I had a sanitized grain bag from malted barley I used for beer brewing to cover up my sanitized cookie sheet covered lightly with steamed rice (@90-95f), innocculated with 50g of Miyako koji rice I ground up in coffee grinder, and natural humidity in the air. Now I am making chckpea/garbanzo miso with that koji and will be doing more starters in the future to use for coutless more koji projects.
Hello! I just got a 20 oz container of dry koji rice, can I use this as a base for making more koji rice? For example, could I soak/steam rice as one would do to make koji rice, but instead of adding koji kin, I blend the dry koji rice I already have and innoculate my steamed rice with it?
In my experience I haven't been able to get it to work very well, but it really depends on how fresh the koji rice is. If its super fresh you can do it and it should go to spore.. If you try it let me know how it works out..
CYRUS T - I THINK YOU CAN WHICH IS WHAT'S CALLED AS 2ND FERMENTATION?
If you really want koji try this. Hit mortar to each and every goose berry then keep it in a big bowl for 3-4 days then you see white snd green mold pure aspergilus then remove seed and make paste out of gooseberry then add your boiled soybeans thats it miso ready after sometime.. In india we just add mustard seeds, green chillies, roast fenugreek seeds all grinded, salt to that it comes out as delicious pickle after 2 weeks ready to eat, can be aged for decades the more it age more valuable its. It taste just similar to miso., many Indians probably dont even know this now lost these traditional foods and culture now. In olden days everyone is poor only brahmins have this pickle when someone sick or get fever they ask this pickle from them they give it..
One time i can made rhizopus. I hope i can make koji too. Thank you!
If you really want koji try this. Hit mortar to each and every goose berry spread turmeric powder 1-2spoon roughly on it and then keep it in a big bowl for 3-4 days then you see white snd green mold pure aspergilus then remove seed and make paste out of gooseberry then add your boiled soybeans thats it miso ready after sometime.. In india we just add mustard seeds, green chillies, roast fenugreek seeds all grinded, salt to that it comes out as delicious pickle after 2 weeks ready to eat, can be aged for decades the more it age more valuable its. It taste just similar to miso., many Indians probably dont even know this now lost these traditional foods and culture now. In olden days everyone is poor only brahmins have this pickle when someone sick or get fever they ask this pickle from them they give it..
The red and other bright coloured mold spores can stick to your gloves as you are handling them and spread.
I'm dipping my hands in alcohol each time 😁
If you really want koji try this. Hit mortar to each and every goose berry then keep it in a big bowl for 3-4 days then you see white snd green mold pure aspergilus then remove seed and make paste out of gooseberry then add your boiled soybeans thats it miso ready after sometime.. In india we just add mustard seeds, green chillies, roast fenugreek seeds all grinded, salt to that it comes out as delicious pickle after 2 weeks ready to eat, can be aged for decades the more it age more valuable its. It taste just similar to miso., many Indians probably dont even know this now lost these traditional foods and culture now. In olden days everyone is poor only brahmins have this pickle when someone sick or get fever they ask this pickle from them they give it..
i wonder why u didnt add ash in the cooked rice ..By sprinkling wood ash on the surface of steamed rice and leaving it at room temperature, the surface of the rice will become alkaline. Aspergillus Oryzae is unique in that it can live in alkalinity where other fungi would die. In addition to weeding out other funguses, wood ash contains potassium and phosphorus, which act as nutrition and actually aid the growth of Aspergillus Oryzae. Once the spores have sprouted, the sprouted spores and grains can be separated by using a sieve. These sprouts can now be used as seed-koji (moyashi).
LOL. When I did this experiment I wasn't aware of the ash trick. I have since read a very interesting study on the subject. Would have made this a lot easier :)
If you really want koji try this. Hit mortar to each and every goose berry then keep it in a big bowl for 3-4 days then you see white snd green mold pure aspergilus then remove seed and make paste out of gooseberry then add your boiled soybeans thats it miso ready after sometime.. In india we just add mustard seeds, green chillies, roast fenugreek seeds all grinded, salt to that it comes out as delicious pickle after 2 weeks ready to eat, can be aged for decades the more it age more valuable its. It taste just similar to miso., many Indians probably dont even know this now lost these traditional foods and culture now. In olden days everyone is poor only brahmins have this pickle when someone sick or get fever they ask this pickle from them they give it.. Thats my favourite pickle too add fresh onions and green chillies to that and eating with rice and adding ghee taste like heaven.
@@jayzz2451 what is hit mortar
@@bally127 Mean just crack Gooseberry with mortar(or Stone) and add turmeric powder, keep it for 3-4 days in winter 4-7days.
hi there! very fascinating video, i tried the same experiment - just wanted to ask you if I can link your video into my blog post to share ?
Go ahead! No problem😉
The second batch (koji 2), with "more spores available", had less red fungus. It could be that the koji (in koji 2) out-competed the other funguses and therefore you had a more complete infestation of koji. In beer brewing it is a similar phenomenon. FIrst of all, there is no such thing as an 100% uncontaminated beer. The fermentation is always a race between beer yeasts and other wild yeast or bacterias. The brewer just pitches the beer yeast into a sanitary wort (unfermented beer) and then the beer yeast goes to work and expands rapidly through the fermentable sugars in the wort before wild yeasts and bacteria have a chance to get started...so theoretically we should pitch a higher cell count (or spore count our whatever it is with fungus) and you should then have less unwanted fungus in your koji colony...Also, with yeast, they produce lactic acid, which is a defense mechanism from other crap that could grow. I have heard of kojic acid before, so does koji have defense mechanism against other funguses?? Or what about salinity of rice, PH or other controls that could help you grow a more pure variety of wild koji?
I think you are absolutely right. I also think Koji 2 won out by sheer number of available spores. I'm not sure about any defense mechanisms on koji I'd have to do some more experimenting.
in a sense it's 'the art of dilution' then after a point you can effectively 'kill' anything else off by letting it starve and die vs feeding the koji areas a bit of stock to keep them going, many old school bread/brewers would simply keep a bucket they'd grown from ages back and would simply add fresh stock while removing old stock for use in fermentations and whatnot
If you really want koji try this. Hit mortar to each and every goose berry then keep it in a big bowl for 3-4 days then you see white snd green mold pure aspergilus then remove seed and make paste out of gooseberry then add your boiled soybeans thats it miso ready after sometime.. In india we just add mustard seeds, green chillies, roast fenugreek seeds all grinded, salt to that it comes out as delicious pickle after 2 weeks ready to eat, can be aged for decades the more it age more valuable its. It taste just similar to miso., many Indians probably dont even know this now lost these traditional foods and culture now. In olden days everyone is poor only brahmins have this pickle when someone sick or get fever they ask this pickle from them they give it..
@@2guysandacooler Are you still doing this experiment? The red mold may not be bad guy at all. They may be the red Koji that has different use.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_yeast_rice
Would you mind to cultivate and promote the red mold to grow to see whether it is the one from the link I provided?
@@jayzz2451 do you know of any literature that talks about what you just described? I grow gooseberries and jostaberries. This method you describes sounds a lot more simple and straight forward
Hello
About 1hour left for 72 hours to finish and I think the spoers should be dried and I would ask you about the perfect heat for drying.
By the way yesterday I checked the batch and I only saw white fluff
Hi Usama. I would say that you can dry it at 29-30C for a few days. I placed it on a counter in my kitchen (at 30F) low humidity. It was dry enough for me to pulse in a spice grinder. then I placed it in a bag and placed in the freezer.
@@2guysandacooler
Thanks
great video, I am making some Koji now and drying it to collect spores, but I am curious, is this safe, do you have to worry at all about breathing in the spores?
I've been making this for several years now and I take the precaution (just like I do with all fungus) to try and not breath it in, but koji doesn't sporulate as aggressively as other fungus. I remember a grow that we did many years ago with an oyster mushroom called the Pheonix Oyster (pleurotus pulmonarius) and as soon as it started sporulating it created the most beautiful mold spores floating around the room they were growing in. It literately looked like a snowstorm. At that time, I was a bit on the careless side and because of those spores I developed a funny little cough that took several weeks to go away😅. So, the lesson I learned from that experience was to treat all fungus the same and be cautious as to inhaling it. A few days ago, my son and I were applying a mycorrhizal fungus to the roots of our dragon fruit, and we had this very conversation. I hope that helps.
@@2guysandacooler thank you, great insight. My only other question is I noticed when doing this process a lot of the spores fly away, especially when blending, are there still plenty when I collect? It looks really green as far as the blended mixture, but I just wanted to confirm.
When you were removing the koji from the cheesecloth, is cross-contamination possible from wearing the same gloves?
Yes it is. Behind the camera I have a little alcohol station that I'm dipping my hands in though.
@@2guysandacooler thank you for the very quick reply. Thank you for sharing all this info. I eagerly await the day when I can start this among many other projects. I'd start this one sooner but I live on the road and visit home sometimes, lol
@@hellbilly007 I hear you😁😁. That was me before I said ,"that's enough!!".
The same gloved for each bundle means fast and easy transplantation of moulds from one to another. One should better disinfect after each
😂😂😂😂 there is an entire "behind the scenes" that you don't know about.....
If I make it same you did can I use that kojl for rice wine
Yes you can
Now that you have your koji, how do you store it? How long does it survives on a shelf?
in a closed bag (zip lock) in the refrigerator. I've had mine for a year now...
@@2guysandacooler can you dehydrate it on low heat and store it as a culture starter instead of storing in fridge?
@@MrMcGillicuddy - Have you found out since you asked this, is it possible?
@@dobiebloke9311 using my own logic I think you could but not positive. I've got so many ideas on self sustaining systems of food production, saving seeds, wild yeast for beer, wine and vinegar etc. You can dry yeast but not sure about fungus. Since koji is a mold I'm not sure if it's possible. Hardly anyone seems to want to practice this art anymore though so it's difficult to find clear information. the best way would be to learn different languages and go visit peasant farmers in countries that still rely on wild cultures of all kinds.
@@MrMcGillicuddy - I've always found that the fermentation of thought is best allowed by not knowing a thing, in the sense that being humble of what is supposedly known, as it might not be true, is worth both knowing and forgetting.
Point being; if you don't know much, you don't have much to defend, so your mind is free to explore the inobvious, the unexpected, and as I consider it to be, that steaming pile of creativity that you just stepped in (or out of).
You know, those mushy, stinky piles of hopes and dream pies that we all awake to, with great shame.
To the point, tho, there is so much about Koji and fermentations that I don't know, that having thought I knew it all, I now realize there are other layers to the onion.
and one more question, what types of material chamber should be? can it be made of glass for example?
Hello. Yes. A Fermentation chamber can be made out of anything. Glass, Styrofoam, an ice chest. Basically anything that will keep your temp and humidity in the right range.
@@2guysandacooler thank you so much
can you buy fermentation chambers???
Good evening.
Where can I buy some spore samples? 🥰
This is where I buy mine: www.gemcultures.com/soy_cultures.htm
☺️🙏🌟Epic!!!
Hello
Should this batch be checked every 12 hours as you normally do in koji rice or do we leave it for 72 hours as it is until spoers generate and multiply.
I've heard and read a lot about koji, its amazing benefits and the distinct flavor it adds to dishes. Like you, I look forward to doing a lot of things like shio koji, amazake, rice vinegar, miso
etc
And when talk about miso bring me a question:
Does it contain alcohol if we do not use yeast during fermentation, especially since it depends on salt strongly and you know that salt usually prevents the production of alcohol?
Hello Usama. I would check it at 48 hours just to make sure that you aren't growing anything crazy. If you are you can gently separate it and toss the bad stuff away. The rest you'll want to let it go to spore. Then repeat the process with the new spores.
Not sure about miso.
@@2guysandacooler
OK ..Thanks
One more question:
In your comment on a question someone asked you about the right amount of homemade koji spores to inoculate steamed rice for koji rice ...
Your answer was that you multiply the quantity 3 times so that it is 6 grams of koji spoers instead of 2 grams as common and my question is:
When we produce wild koji spores as in this video, how many grams is sufficient to inoculate a kilogram of steamed rice to turn them into koji rice
@@usamaalhaj80 the more the better. You want the Koji to outcompete any bad molds. 6 g would be great
what kind of rhizopus is the black spore
Ok. I am going to buy the Koji. Doesn't the husks work if you dip them in boiling water first?
The boiling water will kill the koji as well.
Of course
Tried it and got some koji (I can tell from the smell it is koji)!
I kept it in the incubator and only WHITE spores appeared on the koji rice- not green spores...
Do you have any idea why?
And what is the rice powder you grind the spores with- is it rice flour or grinded raw rice?
There are varieties of koji that produce white spore, I think it might be used with sake or something. I have used purchased rice flour and rice grains ground up in a coffee grinder, it's the same.
If I mix FRESH koji rice (not dried, and without spores), with steamed rice and provide the right temp. and moisture will the aspergillus propagate in the steamed rice?
And if the answer is YES, what ratio of koji rice: steamed rice should I use?
Thank you so much for great videos!!
I've tried that before with limited success. The koji rice needs to be super fresh. If you do try it add a bunch of koji rice so that it will colonize faster. 1 cup of koji rice to 4-6 cups of rice..
@@2guysandacooler thank you so much!
If you really want koji try this. Hit mortar to each and every goose berry then keep it in a big bowl for 3-4 days then you see white snd green mold pure aspergilus then remove seed and make paste out of gooseberry then add your boiled soybeans thats it miso ready after sometime.. In india we just add mustard seeds, green chillies, roast fenugreek seeds all grinded, salt to that it comes out as delicious pickle after 2 weeks ready to eat, can be aged for decades the more it age more valuable its. It taste just similar to miso., many Indians probably dont even know this now lost these traditional foods and culture now. In olden days everyone is poor only brahmins have this pickle when someone sick or get fever they ask this pickle from them they give it.. Thats my favourite pickle too add fresh onions and green chillies to that and eating with rice and adding ghee taste like heaven.
Green spores can also be trichoderma
Excelent video, very esporadyc😅
mycotoxins are very proud of u!
Can j use red rice Koji starter