J.T. Cooper Did you upgrade every component or just a couple like all caps or all resistors etc.? And did you use the old crossoverboard? I am looking to upgrad my speakers crossovers as well and the board is wayy too small for the upgraded components.
@@dinhduynguyen3809 I upgraded with complete crossovers. Out with the old and in with the new. ✌🏻If you want to build them yourself, you can go that route too. Just get a bigger piece of board that will hold everything.
@@j.t.cooper2963 have you done any Klipsch speaker upgrades? Im about to upgrade the RP-600m which are considered bright at the top end so im thinking for caps either Jupiter Condenser copper foil paper and wax or the Jantzen Amber Z-cap they are more on the neutral sounding side. For resistors im thinking either pathaudio, ohmite audio gold, Mundorf MOX or Vishay. I will be upgrading the wiring and speaker binding posts at the same time.
Hi: Let me start by saying that you come across as one of the most reasonable and knowledgeable people I've found in this “vintage audio” niche. My name is Orlando Mergal. I live in sunny Puerto Rico. I’m a 69-year-old audio afficionado. My system consists of a Carver C-1 Preamp combined with an original Phase Linear 400 and two Onkyo Scepter 10 speakers. I also have a couple of processors (DBX 3BX III Expander and DBX 120 Subharmonic Synthesizer). I have a local technician, that I've known for over 40 years, that keeps my old toys up to date. He even altered my Phase Linear amplifier to replace the meter bulbs with LEDs and added a potentiometer to tame their brightness to my liking. I’ve always been happy with my sound. The large horns in the Scepter 10s make my big band jazz CDs sound like the band is playing right next to me in my living room. However, I do have a couple of questions. 1. Why is it that these speakers never come up in online discussions. It’s like they were never manufactured. 2. What do you think of the Scepter 10s? Are you familiar with them? I used to have Pioneer HPM-100s but these seemed more efficient. Plus, I'm just a sucker for horns. 3. Would you recap the crossovers on the Scepter 10s? I know my way around a soldering iron but I have no idea which capacitors I should buy. In the past I've ordered from Parts Express. Any suggestions as to what type and brand I should procure? Thank you for your excellent content. I love it!!! Orlando
Hi Orlando and thanks for being part of our community. I have never had the pleasure of hearing those speakers. That's great how they must sound. Typically the only caps needing replacement in a speaker crossover are the big ones if they are electrolytic. You can tell those because they always are housed in a metal can where film capacitors are all plastic feeling small barrels or like Chicklet gum. I would trust that any capacitor would have its value written on it. Just replace those with the same value out of Parts Express.
As an experiment I took a 45 year old pair of KLH Model 32 speakers out of the attic. I hooked them up and the sound was not very good as I expected. I started researching crossovers and upgrades others have done to make some improvements and with an old pair of speakers just gathering dust, it was the perfect experiment. Removed the woofers and resealed the cloth surrounds with Permatex High Tack Gasket Sealant #80062. Found quality replacement capacitors to replace the small 45 year old cheap foreign made 4mF capacitors. The 1mH inductor was a low quality iron core inductor so I replaced those with air core inductors with much better specs than what I was getting from the old inductors. While I was at it since I had to remove all that old fiberglass damping I decided to make an upgrade in damping. I got some thin sound deadening strips of a type like Dynamat which I glued along the back, side walls, top and bottom and on top of that I put 1/2” Roxul insulation on top and then placed 6 Oz of loose Polyfill in the box. Resealed the woofer woofer cutout with gasket material. Did I go just a tiny bit “overboard” ? 🤦🏻♂️ Probably, but the end result was a big improvement and a noticeable difference in quality over the response after the modifications than before. A fun project and to answer the Question of the Day, YES replacing crossover components and other upgrades will make a difference
Speaker tweaking is really fun. Some speakers are easier to tweak then others. I owned a pair of Dahlquist DQ-10’s one of the most tweakable speakers ever made. I replaced the caps with polystyrene caps, the resistors with film resistors and that definitely made a difference. But, I mirrored the right speaker, no easy task, and that made a HUGE difference. Then the biggest tweak. I think the DQ-10's cost me $1000 new for the pair. I replaced the $5 tweeters with a $500 pair of Decca Ribbons. WOW! That was a mind blowing change. All this in like 74. A long time ago, far far away.
I'm recapping a pair of DQ-10's right now. 8 caps on each board, parts from Regnar. A technician 'stole' the 10" woofers when the previous owner had them 'repaired.' All they needed was refoaming, but he stuck in 12" Eminence. Found some on eBay (Advent/Dahlquist).
Upgrading the crossovers on high end vintage speakers is one of the single best ways to get amazing sound. A lot of those older high end "audiophile" speakers had amazing drivers(altec, JBL, Klipsch) that sound beautiful, but some times the components used in their crossovers were lacking and especially given time and age replacing them can only be a good thing.
I think that is something I will try as I do have vintage speakers from those 3 brands plus 1 pioneer. One question though, is it better to use multiple capacitors in parallel instead of one even if you can find the right value with just one? I think in amps they sometimes use more capacitors for faster release of energy.
@@PedroCorrales123 If you can get away with using a single cap for the needed value that's always a better option. Amps often use many different caps because the amp may have several different voltages running simultaneously among other reasons. How fast a cap releases energy is only relevant when you're turning off the device, so it has no bearing on the operational performance of said device.
I have 2 pair of 1974 vintage Altec Lansing Model 7. I changed capacitors and speaker binding post at a cost of $150 on one pair. These cap took 100 hours of play or so to break in. The receiver has speaker A + B so I could compare. First of all it sounded as if the tweeter was replaced. Big difference worth the money. Next I re capped the other pair. The woofer cap was the same but I spent more on the mid and alot more on the tweeter cap. What a difference. I hear things like never before. Especially percussion, cymbals, bells, ect. Something like Kraftwerk is stunning. One thing I should mention is that the new caps are much larger but still have same UF rating. They can be difficult to fit. The caps I used are made in Denmark. I am not an expert others may be better. I could have spent much more than I did. I doubt I could buy new speakers that sound this good for what the upgrade cost.
Hi Paul, I agree jamo don’t make a lot of high end products, but they still do. For example the Jamo Concert 7 won “Loud speaker of the year” - CESA sound and image awards 1989 This is a unique speaker, 3 way design with twin 8” bass houses in a bass chamber, facing each other and go as low as 22hertz. There are many characters that make it a great speaker. I own a fair pairs of speakers and can certainty attain it is a quality product, perhaps not to your level - but I think you would like them and would agree they would sound good
I have replaced capacitors on my main speakers and now my subwoofers. All from the 1990s. The clarity has returned that made me first get excited about audio. I also upgraded the internal wiring to 100% ofc copper audio cable wiring. Not sure if that helped too but it couldn't of hurt. Still have one set of towers i want to recap next year.
Rewiring is the first step, standard economical Fig8 with clear jacket and decent copper, ensure all cables wired in same direction, preferably connection to amp in same cable. This required first step mod sets a defined foundation to work from, there are required electrical mods too like rf terminating all cable sections, 110R or so. Once this is done cap and inductor and resistor signature sounds are perfectly audible, there is much choice in these final filters.
Hi, I have a Jamo 707a model. Changed every single part with Jansen caps and coils with air ones, oh boy the sound is 360 better. All wires are changed for copper/silver and highs are silver only. Diferent speaker all together!
The worst component of your crossover network you cannot replace: the voice coil. The voice coil is a with temperature varying resistor. Double resistance with 3 dB power compression and four times with 6 dB power compression. So your crossover frequencies are sweeping all over the place (I think about one octave with 3 dB power compression), and for the different drivers at different moments and in different amounts. Leading to peaks and dips in your frequency response, changing with the dynamics of your music. The voice coil is a coil (duh) with a ferromagnetic core (the magnet). So, it colours the sound and it distorts. The voice coil is microphonic and distorts your signal. And for those who think that it cannot be much: at resonance it dampens the signal with 90-95% (and is called electric damping). Every resonance in driver or loudspeaker shows up in the impedance curves and influences the sound. So, if you DIY, I think it is better to get rid of the whole passive crossover all together and go for an active crossover. And even better go for a current-drive (c.q. current source) amplifier to get rid of power compression and current distortion (by the voice coil and the microphone effect). And, as a side effect of the active crossover, it makes the amplifiers hilarious more efficient. Suppose for example, you have four 4Ω drivers per channel (3-way and sub) and for each a signal of 100 Watt (20 Volt and 5 Ampere) you need four amplifiers delivering 100 Watt and a power supply delivering enough power for those 400 Watts (nice DIY job). If you keep your passive crossovers you need a total signal of 80 Volt (4 times 20) and 20 Ampere (4 times 5), thus 1600 Watts and a power supply for that. At least, because your passive crossover suck up quite some power. So the power amplifier is, with four drivers, at least 16 times as big and the power supply is at least 4 times as big. (All these numbers are for one channel only.) The money you safe on the passive crossover components, the amplifiers and power supply you can use for some nice active crossover.
STEREO JUNKY That’s right! Two amplifiers parallel is equal to 400 Watt (peak), Three parallel 900 Watt, Four parallel 1600 Watt, Five parallel 2500 Watt, etc But this is optimistic, only when power is equally distributed over the drivers. On the other hand with passive crossovers you lose quite some power.
STEREO JUNKY That’s why I don’t see any reason for using passive crossovers. Not a sound reason and not a budget reason. Moreover the crossover frequencies of active crossovers are stable and independent of voice coil temperature.
i did my crossovers some 8 years ago with jantzen caps and mox resistors. wow what a difference in clarity, instrument separation and soundstage ud/down especially. My tried and true Dali evidence 470se really liked that. best regards from hifi-nørd Denmark
I obtained a pair of RtR HPR-12 Magnums from an old highschool classmate for a song. They sounded pretty good - better than my Pioneer CS-99s, being more transparent and having *much*-better bass. But these were made in an early production run, so they're over 45 years old, and it's well-understood that the electrolytic capacitors used at the time will go out -of-spec after a couple of decades, so I decided to upgrade the caps. I bought some midrange foil Clarity caps ($75± for four capacitors between the two speakers). It was a very enjoyable afternoon, unhitching the circuitboard from the back of the case, removing the circuit-breaker reset switch as a source of noise in the signal path, and fitting the new caps to the circuitboard. The improvement in the speakers' sound was immediate, and only got better over the next few days as the caps "burned-in." These units sounded good before, but now they really sing. The bass is tight and nearly flat down to 30Hz, the mids and highs are transparent, nuanced, and spacious. The improvement in soundstage is delicious. The conventional wisdom is that you don't need to replace any resistors you might find, as these rarely go out-of-spec, though some people think that replacing old resistors with current-technology ones will improve things. You might also look into replacing any iron-core inductor coils with air-core inductors, but I'm not literate enough in that area to tell you where to begin finding a drop-in replacement. So the roll-up is: Do the upgrade. Well worth the time and expense.
It depends on the speaker, if they have cheap drivers, forget it. If it had good drivers then it might be a good idea. Now there has been some videos talking about the newest Klipsh bookshelf speakers and what to do to the crossovers to make them sound better, and I'd be tempted to try those for my bedroom if I didn't already have some speakers to use there. But my living room mains are custom built as are the cross overs and I've yet to hear anything better at their price, and they are 18 yrs old now. When you buy quality it doesn't need to be replaced!
Saw a lightly used pair of Canton Reference 9.2 monitors for about $900. Speaking from experience Canton uses very high quality crossovers,cabinets, drivers in all their Reference lines..
I have redone internal crossovers for twenty years. There only done on speakers already giving you a worthy sound. But after most definitely no discussion they make stage difference. But again the speakers must already show that they are worthwhile for doing it.
Thinking of doing it to my tannoy's only eclipse 2 but have a good cabinet braced etc plus my budget isn't high also disabled one arm think ill be ok with the work changed a minis engine by self , spend about £50 on each speaker
I've had a good experience upgrading Carnegie CST-1's with "Sonicaps" and insulation from GR research. I have another kit on the way from them for SVS Ultra Bookshelves. Danny with GR research has several UA-cam videos to help education on this.
I have a pair of 25th Anniversary Advents that are in great condition. They have been re-foamed so I am good there. I was just wondering if it would be worth it to upgrade the crossovers in these 90's era Advents.
Yes! Replace the Caps and resistors with newer and higher quality ones of the same values. Capacitors can go bad over time. Replace iron core inductors with air core inductors made with larger gauge wire. Check with Danny at GR-Research as he may have upgraded Advent crossovers for folks before.
Components; I recommend Janzen Audio in Denmark, for both supply and their own lines. Super value - perhaps their 'Cross Caps' might be the best choice for you. Ranges are from quality budget to esoteric. great resistors and their custom inductor range is the best value around imo - great value air cores. if you want to tweak a bit, you might consider making external crossover boxes, particularly as the better parts will likely be bigger. consider extra bracing/resonance control for the cabs, try increasing 'polyfill'. self adhesive bitumen panels are a cheap improvement for internal walls and also stiffen up cab. janzen also supply this stuff - no personal connection here, though i have been a happy customer. bare in mind bang for the buck sound wise can be impressive, though you won't get the money back on resale - view it as 'playing money' and you won't go wrong. Suggested 1st base; tweeter cap/resistors replace with MOX's, cab damping.
I did this in my LS50, respecting manufacter specs, I chance the capacitors for mundorf AGO and Supreme evo oil, resists m-supreme and the internal cable for a Silver plate cooper Discovery... The speakers are much more natural, detailed and smooth too
I have a pair of Advent Legacy & they've only had the woofer foams replaced. I'd like to recap the crossovers but can't find much info about doing it. Any help???
The importance of driver quality is often overestimated, the importance of crossovers, cabinetry and driver alignment/arrangement is often underestimated. It’s possible to obtain a very satisfying and enjoyable listening experience from run of the mill speaker drivers when they are used in a way that makes the best of what the driver has to offer.
I'm a DIY average Joe and for me I spend just as much time tweaking and modding gear and environment as I do sitting listening to music do there is no question at all, those Jamos would have had surgery at my place within a week;) also I have operated on many a stock COs and can say without a doubt a really good way to educate yourself on the equipment AND %99 on cheaper loudspeakers modding COs or replacing completely is fun and CAN sound much nicer! Like Nike, "Just do it":)
Crossovers is one of the first things that got me into audio when I was about 8 years old. I discovered I could run car woofers under my bed and use the signal from the woofer portion of flea market 3way speakers and it took of from there. I learned about impedance/ohms so I then only bought receivers that could go down to 4 ohm loads. The I fell in love with the Optimus STAV-3350 from radio crap/shack :) I shouldn’t bad mouth radio shack it’s where I got my start. But that optimus could handle 2 ohms but I never wired it to 2 ohms it was actually a pioneer come to find out my buddy’s dad had one only difference was his display was amber mine was blue ish white. And I’d had surround sound. So I could use it in Stereo mode and put out good bass or use the surround modes and watch movies ect. Blew out my dads stereo experimenting but he gave it to me years later I still have it. They repaired it by soldering in a bigger fuse now it’s temperamental and doesn’t like to turn on always. But got into car audio so yup! It all starts somewhere. I still remember the model though THE STAV-3350 :) probably kept me out of trouble come to think of it it kept me home.
Bought some Jantzen caps to upgrade my old Quart 350s and Advent 28s. However, recapping my old Dahlquist crossovers cost $230 for the new caps. They are huge, magnificent beasts compared to the old ones from the 1970's. We're talking 8 capacitors per crossover board.
Make yourself a kind of crossover sized breadboard, run a pair of leads from each driver to the listening position, mock up a starting point like the factory design and just sit down and plug n play baby! Makes me want to do it now.
Hi ! So I upgraded the capacitors in my 30 yo B&W DM640, w/Solen PP caps, and they became too bright! I really miss the smooth relaxed voice they had previously. What would you recommend?
Back in the days, i built my own and outclassed many expensive speakers that were coming out... But, genius grade engineers like Andrew Jones, Greg Timbers, etc tend to make a lousy driver and lousy crossover sound phenomenally good for dirt cheap these days. After noting that i couldn't make them sound any better than these guys at these low price points, i started buying their speakers. I suspect most DIY guys who "THINK" they're really good couldn't do any better than the above mentioned engineers at dirt cheap price points either.
I recently "saved" few pairs of 70s/80s KLH IVs from the landfill. Anyway, those old KLH used oil filled caps, (maybe PIO or paper in oil). Oil caps were a thing then so I assume lots of speakers used them. One hundred percent of the crossover caps were very bad, to to extent that the (perfectly okay) HF speakers didn't work/play at all. Fifty dollars in new mylar caps and both sets work just FINE again. A quick sand and stain and clean the grills with auto rug cleaner and looking good. I'm still considering painting the woofer surrounds (the "front" side at least) with some latex restoration product, but they seem okay for now. Mixed messages for what to use, any suggestions?
Paul, you are a good guy , I wish I had a friend like you, we have so much in common with audio and are crazy youth years. I read your book & a vary good read. 🎼
Perfect topic! Thank you. In my studio is a pair of Yamaha HS8’s. Great studio monitors, however, I’ve thinking about the inductors and caps and whether the sound could be better. Thanks so much for giving your view on the subject!
I spent 300 on a triangle borea Br02 + 250 for air core coils heavy awg, jantzen caps, mills resistors, athom zef wire, new biding post 100% copper. Verdict: those are not 550 bookshelf's speakers. More like 1500. I did the same with the elac debut b5.2, even greater results.
Shame no one from PS Audio ever comes on here. Watching a video the other day and the date on the PC behind Paul was a month before. Paul must knock out 30 questions on a Sat and then sets up YT for them to be released on certain dates.
I am convinced of the possible benefit of crossover upgrades but where are good sources of those components? I can think of Parts Express. Are there any other recommended sources?
@Fat Rat Seems that you and Paul aren't able to understand that Jamo makes different lines of loudspeakers in different price points to different kind of buyers where some speakers are good and some are worse.
Birger Olofsson was a bit surprise with Pauls comment about Jamo, off course they produce some mass products, but they also sell excellent speakers. wether they are cheap or not, it does not mater really matter. I have the D590 50Y aniversary and I’m so happy 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
The wife bought me a pair of Vintage Klipsch Heresy’s at a pawn shop. Opened them up & found the wire to one tweeter was not connected. Reconnected and still no sound. While looking for new voice coils / diaphragm s I find out about Bob Crites. He sells new complete x-over boards for different models of Klipsch & recap kits too which is what I did. I wish I had of just done one first and compared the sound but didn’t.
but paul dont you think it might mess up the imagianing & critical midrange? .you can always take your chances on G.R. research...Unless youre an old timer whos Got some ancient Klipsch in the basement thats got nothing else to do why the hell not otherwise dont.!! upgrade the cables,amp first or modify it ..Hope I was helpful!
Good capacitors are not cheap, but they will definitely lift a veil off your speakers. Crossovers are often well designed but usually cheaply made. It is the place where manufacturers cut costs, even decent caps are often better than OEM quality. Get a good poly cap and you will often be better off than getting new speakers that also have cheap crossovers. If they are 12 db. the bypass caps do not need to be as good as the in line filter caps in the crossover.
I found this interesting website while back when i was hunting coupling caps for a DIY phono stage. "Humblehomemadehifi" dot "com" tests out different caps and has some good info on them. There are also examples of crossover upgrades done to clients and other useful info on DIY HiFi.
that's a great site with some great info! and they have a great services, I haven't used them but my friend used them to design him a x-over for a diy project he did and I'm going to use them for a DIY project I'm doing now, and they're not to pricey!
I have the other question. I have rather expensive speakers with most likely good components in their crossovers. But my speakers are maybe 15 years old. Does it work against crossover?
Could we meet some of the people who work at PS? Maybe little interviews about why they choose to work at PS over a competitor? High end audio is a rather small community overall and learning more about what makes PS special from the horses mouth as they say sounds like a good idea in my head LOL.
Can you also tell me if I am right here that the vocals and musical instruments sound better on a R2R Dac where as digital music sounds better on PWM/FPGA? I know the question is un realated to the video but would appreciate ur input
Hi, could you offer any advice on whether tweeters degrade over time? I have a 20 year old set of KEF Concerto Ones which have a nice balanced sound but to my ears they seem to lack definition over the years. I'm looking to replace the tweeters and upgrade the crossovers. Kind regards, James.
There are a lot of variables but most tweeters themselves shouldn't really degrade per se unless some internal component of the tweeter suspension does. If the tweeter has ferro fluid inside, that could turn to sludge over time and should be cleaned out and replaced with fresh FF. The capacitors and maybe resistors can also drift from the original values and could be replaced and/or upgraded if you like. Anything that gets replaced should be as close to original values as possible (especially any tweeter replacement), or you risk botching the design up.
My advice is: if you like to mess with boards, cables, components and iron soldering, go ahead. If you wanna a REAL improvement in sound, forget crossovers messing, give that pair to some NGO and go straight for new better speakers.
@JonMoralesLA Amazing, I found out that the harshness in most affordable well designed speakers comes from bad resistors. Better caps bring imaging. The coil help with layering but impossible to ear with an average system.
I completly don't understand all this hate on Jamo. In Europe, where I live, their products are considered as high quality and probably "Best bang for Your Buck" as you like to say. They are not for audiophiles but for a normal human being they are great. And originally they are from Denmark which is considered the capital of europeanHiFi. They look great, last many years, sound good. Almost non cons in this price range.
I have been messing with my DSP for a couple days now. Playing with optimizing the the values for each driver. Whats really cool is having different profiles. In a 2 way bookshelf system, having different modes at a push of a button can make a difference. One mode for running them hard and another for low level playing. Almost like a 6 position loudness button but done digitally. Forget passive. IMO and get a DSP! If you want to hobby shop your speakers, the possibilties are amazing. Also the different types of crossovers included make adjustments so precise. One amp channel for every driver, forget playing with outdated tech.
I've been using a PC based digital crossover for about a year now, sounds much better than a passive crossover, and can be changed on the fly. Best upgrade I've ever done.
@@sailingaquarius23 No model number, it's a desktop computer with an Asus essence stx II 7.1 sound card, running jack, pulseaudio and my own software on Linux. Audio is sent to it over ethernet, but analog line in is also available.
If you want to do the least to really improve the sound upgrade the caps. If you only want to change one cap do the tweeter cap. Use a good film cap if you can.
@@andershammer9307 The Washington DC speaker builders club (back in the 2000s) did all this testing in a double blind format. I stated the results we found. First, resistors for tweeters. Then caps, then inductors. But data and testing doesn't impact beliefs.
@@drgjs I think many would agree that caps would have much more of a change to the sound than resistors. I used to modify stereo equipment for a living and I did what made the most change first.
The subjective impressions of a bunch of DIY enthusiasts aren't persuasive. The applicable math and known component characteristics say ditch any NP electrolytics in the signal path, the same goes for cored inductors. That said, neither category is especially problematic in a shunt (parallel) role in the circuit as long as the component in question is in good condition. Resistors? Unless they're highly inductive or out of tolerance, replacing them with pricey "audio grade" parts won't do squat.
Liar! Their Oriel is as extraordinary as you can get. An old speaker but they have done more "exclusive" speakers also. You just don't know their history.
Passive crossovers are Pie in The Sky over most of the globe now. You can't get such components nowadays and then I don't think you ever could either. These components, you would find are manufacturers specials that might or might not have the exact value marked on them. They will have been selected to match the impedances of the chassis units. I feel obliged to point out that the only way to obtain accurate crossover nowadays is by active filtering . Your advice will do nothing apart from a slight amount of financial easement in the component supply industry.
GR Research has a lot of good information on the topic of upgrading crossovers. Using RP-600 as an example the entire process is covered in a multiple video series starting here: ua-cam.com/video/NH4xI5VXR_o/v-deo.html . Do be aware Paul was talking about keeping the electrical values as factory designed the upgrade being to better quality parts. GR Research does both quality of components upgrades and when warranted redesign of the crossover as in the RP-600 series.
There isn't any evidence that crossover part quality makes any difference at all to perceivable sound. It's difficult to pickup even minute changes when measured with a very precise and expensive microphone, even if you know what to look for. There is a reason why Danny doesn't show you distortion graphs.
I have a small single driver speaker. I also have 2 way, 3 way and a 4 way system. I build speakers and while there is nothing wrong with a single driver system, it actually does some things quite well, calling it "full range" is a stretch. They work well for near range low level is my experience. Distortion in speakers is usually higher than in any other part of the system. A single driver speaker will have more distortion than a multi driver system if equal quality components are used. At a given price point it has merit, but if money is available a good multi way with good crossovers (not cheap) or electronic crossover will be better for "full range" reproduction. Using my 1/3 octave real time analyzer I have gotten best results with an electronic crossover and multi driver system. -Norman
NO!!!! FOR SO MANY REASONS!! THE #1 REASON, HOW DARE YOU! Crossover are designed and made for each specific speaker's model. Take Infinity for example. Everyone talks about how cheap their woofers are (RS line). You think re-doing the crossover is going to make them better? More like you will over drive them and burn them up or if lucky just change their sound all together. The whole speaker (box, crossover, drivers) is a symphony of parts of what was available at the time at a certain cost point. I have 2 sets of Infinity RS IIIa's. I had to replace 1 cap in one set (to make the set match) because when doing new pots I broke a lead off one of the caps. replaced with the same values and just the one cap, they sound different then the other set when they did not before. The crossover is made to take advantage of the box it is in and the drivers it feeds. The drivers are used to take advantage of the box and the crossover. The box is used to make the drivers that is being feed from the crossover sound better. The bottom line is a true audiophile would never tamper with the set up because the maker made it that way. They would have to just buy new speakers and listen to them the way the maker intended. Again, HOW DARE YOU.... With that said, I just took a set of 1974 Realistic Nova 4's, they used to call them "cathedral speakers" because of the grills they use and installed Infinity Qe crossovers, horn tweeters and pyle 8" woofers in them. They are pretty kick-ass for the garage. Would I do that to my IRS IIIa's, nope. Over the years I really wanted to add a second Emit tweeter to each speaker but never had the heart to cut the box (how dare I...) so I just built EMIT satellites to sit on top of them. There is just some lines you don't cross. lol. I really think the main reason is I never wanted someone to look at the name plate and then the speaker and say they don't match. Once custom ...always custom. IMHO if you want to change them up then go for it but be aware that there is risks and rewards like the speakers not being original anymore (resale value), audiophile looking down their noses at you and most of all you may or may not like what's on the other side even with a simple recap of what you have. Just depends on where the chips fall.
Wow! I'm rocking in the free world! The deed is already done. Paul messed with the IRSV's. But thats what we do. I dont buy Hi end and I dont sell anything. So Cut that box down, get a DSP, some good amps and have a Big Mac n fries ta boot! (IMO)
@Fat Rat I don't think you got my sarcasm. To be honest I have to say I was pretty shocked that Paul said go for it though. This is a guy that will not give you tone control on his stuff (because that is the way it should sound and if it don't then fix the room to make it sound that way) and yet is saying ditch someone else's stuff and change it. I'm not above it. I just put Infinity Qe crossovers in Radio shack boxes. But like I said there is a line and for me it's my IIIa's. I mean if you want to hot rod up a 1980's mustang I could care less. Now if you want to hot rod up a 1966 numbers matching low miles Mustang I may frown on that.
I got some old nova's also. My dad was into the RS stuff in the 70's. Didn't you loose some upper midrange putting some Piles in there? Oh well. I still say cut the box volume in half and add a sub playing the same freq as the main. But thats just too junky for some people. It works because those to woofers compliment each other. One tuned high and one low. BTW I know what you're saying about the Mustang's. Thats my first trade. Auto tech. Drove one of the first Mustang 5.0's 5 speed 1979 model. Was my step brothers friend. Loved it! Although I was brought up Chevy Malibu 283 converted to 327 by my dad to pull a travel trailer better.
Its not so much that with tone controls. Just passing the signal through that circuit with the knobs at zreo does deteriorate the signal. My wife can hear the difference between that and "direct in" on our 90's Marantz.
I have upgraded several pairs of speakers with quality crossovers, and I have never been disappointed with the results. Highly recommended.
J.T. Cooper Did you upgrade every component or just a couple like all caps or all resistors etc.? And did you use the old crossoverboard? I am looking to upgrad my speakers crossovers as well and the board is wayy too small for the upgraded components.
@@dinhduynguyen3809 I upgraded with complete crossovers. Out with the old and in with the new. ✌🏻If you want to build them yourself, you can go that route too. Just get a bigger piece of board that will hold everything.
@@j.t.cooper2963 have you done any Klipsch speaker upgrades? Im about to upgrade the RP-600m which are considered bright at the top end so im thinking for caps either Jupiter Condenser copper foil paper and wax or the Jantzen Amber Z-cap they are more on the neutral sounding side. For resistors im thinking either pathaudio, ohmite audio gold, Mundorf MOX or Vishay. I will be upgrading the wiring and speaker binding posts at the same time.
@@williamm9099 I haven't done any Klipsch speakers. Good luck and have fun!
Where can i buy crossover for 6ohm speakers
Hi:
Let me start by saying that you come across as one of the most reasonable and knowledgeable people I've found in this “vintage audio” niche.
My name is Orlando Mergal. I live in sunny Puerto Rico.
I’m a 69-year-old audio afficionado. My system consists of a Carver C-1 Preamp combined with an original Phase Linear 400 and two Onkyo Scepter 10 speakers. I also have a couple of processors (DBX 3BX III Expander and DBX 120 Subharmonic Synthesizer).
I have a local technician, that I've known for over 40 years, that keeps my old toys up to date. He even altered my Phase Linear amplifier to replace the meter bulbs with LEDs and added a potentiometer to tame their brightness to my liking.
I’ve always been happy with my sound. The large horns in the Scepter 10s make my big band jazz CDs sound like the band is playing right next to me in my living room.
However, I do have a couple of questions.
1. Why is it that these speakers never come up in online discussions. It’s like they were never manufactured.
2. What do you think of the Scepter 10s? Are you familiar with them? I used to have Pioneer HPM-100s but these seemed more efficient. Plus, I'm just a sucker for horns.
3. Would you recap the crossovers on the Scepter 10s?
I know my way around a soldering iron but I have no idea which capacitors I should buy.
In the past I've ordered from Parts Express. Any suggestions as to what type and brand I should procure?
Thank you for your excellent content. I love it!!!
Orlando
Hi Orlando and thanks for being part of our community. I have never had the pleasure of hearing those speakers. That's great how they must sound. Typically the only caps needing replacement in a speaker crossover are the big ones if they are electrolytic. You can tell those because they always are housed in a metal can where film capacitors are all plastic feeling small barrels or like Chicklet gum. I would trust that any capacitor would have its value written on it. Just replace those with the same value out of Parts Express.
As an experiment I took a 45 year old pair of KLH Model 32 speakers out of the attic. I hooked them up and the sound was not very good as I expected.
I started researching crossovers and upgrades others have done to make some improvements and with an old pair of speakers just gathering dust, it was the perfect experiment.
Removed the woofers and resealed the cloth surrounds with Permatex High Tack Gasket Sealant #80062.
Found quality replacement capacitors to replace the small 45 year old cheap foreign made 4mF capacitors. The 1mH inductor was a low quality iron core inductor so I replaced those with air core inductors with much better specs than what I was getting from the old inductors.
While I was at it since I had to remove all that old fiberglass damping I decided to make an upgrade in damping. I got some thin sound deadening strips of a type like Dynamat which I glued along the back, side walls, top and bottom and on top of that I put 1/2” Roxul insulation on top and then placed 6 Oz of loose Polyfill in the box. Resealed the woofer woofer cutout with gasket material.
Did I go just a tiny bit “overboard” ? 🤦🏻♂️ Probably, but the end result was a big improvement and a noticeable difference in quality over the response after the modifications than before.
A fun project and to answer the Question of the Day, YES replacing crossover components and other upgrades will make a difference
doesn't sound lie you went overboard, sounds like you went right for the perfect amount of board. great job!
Thank you PS Audio for saying that, "crossovers make huge difference" I needed that info
Speaker tweaking is really fun. Some speakers are easier to tweak then others. I owned a pair of Dahlquist DQ-10’s one of the most tweakable speakers ever made. I replaced the caps with polystyrene caps, the resistors with film resistors and that definitely made a difference. But, I mirrored the right speaker, no easy task, and that made a HUGE difference. Then the biggest tweak. I think the DQ-10's cost me $1000 new for the pair. I replaced the $5 tweeters with a $500 pair of Decca Ribbons. WOW! That was a mind blowing change. All this in like 74.
A long time ago, far far away.
I'm recapping a pair of DQ-10's right now. 8 caps on each board, parts from Regnar. A technician 'stole' the 10" woofers when the previous owner had them 'repaired.' All they needed was refoaming, but he stuck in 12" Eminence. Found some on eBay (Advent/Dahlquist).
Upgrading the crossovers on high end vintage speakers is one of the single best ways to get amazing sound. A lot of those older high end "audiophile" speakers had amazing drivers(altec, JBL, Klipsch) that sound beautiful, but some times the components used in their crossovers were lacking and especially given time and age replacing them can only be a good thing.
I think that is something I will try as I do have vintage speakers from those 3 brands plus 1 pioneer. One question though, is it better to use multiple capacitors in parallel instead of one even if you can find the right value with just one? I think in amps they sometimes use more capacitors for faster release of energy.
@@PedroCorrales123 If you can get away with using a single cap for the needed value that's always a better option. Amps often use many different caps because the amp may have several different voltages running simultaneously among other reasons. How fast a cap releases energy is only relevant when you're turning off the device, so it has no bearing on the operational performance of said device.
I have 2 pair of 1974 vintage Altec Lansing Model 7. I changed capacitors and speaker binding post at a cost of $150 on one pair. These cap took 100 hours of play or so to break in. The receiver has speaker A + B so I could compare. First of all it sounded as if the tweeter was replaced. Big difference worth the money. Next I re capped the other pair. The woofer cap was the same but I spent more on the mid and alot more on the tweeter cap. What a difference. I hear things like never before. Especially percussion, cymbals, bells, ect. Something like Kraftwerk is stunning. One thing I should mention is that the new caps are much larger but still have same UF rating. They can be difficult to fit. The caps I used are made in Denmark. I am not an expert others may be better. I could have spent much more than I did. I doubt I could buy new speakers that sound this good for what the upgrade cost.
I carefully upgraded the caps in my PSB Goldi's and the change was great! Smoother, tighter, more transparent! Spent maybe $100 bucks max...
Hi Paul, I agree jamo don’t make a lot of high end products, but they still do. For example the Jamo Concert 7 won “Loud speaker of the year” - CESA sound and image awards 1989
This is a unique speaker, 3 way design with twin 8” bass houses in a bass chamber, facing each other and go as low as 22hertz.
There are many characters that make it a great speaker.
I own a fair pairs of speakers and can certainty attain it is a quality product, perhaps not to your level - but I think you would like them and would agree they would sound good
Absolutely. I replaced my crossovers in my Tannoy FSM. I gave my speakers a new lease of life.
And coils?
I have replaced capacitors on my main speakers and now my subwoofers. All from the 1990s. The clarity has returned that made me first get excited about audio. I also upgraded the internal wiring to 100% ofc copper audio cable wiring. Not sure if that helped too but it couldn't of hurt. Still have one set of towers i want to recap next year.
Rewiring is the first step, standard economical Fig8 with clear jacket and decent copper, ensure all cables wired in same direction, preferably connection to amp in same cable.
This required first step mod sets a defined foundation to work from, there are required electrical mods too like rf terminating all cable sections, 110R or so.
Once this is done cap and inductor and resistor signature sounds are perfectly audible, there is much choice in these final filters.
Hi, I have a Jamo 707a model. Changed every single part with Jansen caps and coils with air ones, oh boy the sound is 360 better. All wires are changed for copper/silver and highs are silver only. Diferent speaker all together!
The worst component of your crossover network you cannot replace: the voice coil.
The voice coil is a with temperature varying resistor. Double resistance with 3 dB power compression and four times with 6 dB power compression. So your crossover frequencies are sweeping all over the place (I think about one octave with 3 dB power compression), and for the different drivers at different moments and in different amounts. Leading to peaks and dips in your frequency response, changing with the dynamics of your music.
The voice coil is a coil (duh) with a ferromagnetic core (the magnet). So, it colours the sound and it distorts.
The voice coil is microphonic and distorts your signal. And for those who think that it cannot be much: at resonance it dampens the signal with 90-95% (and is called electric damping). Every resonance in driver or loudspeaker shows up in the impedance curves and influences the sound.
So, if you DIY, I think it is better to get rid of the whole passive crossover all together and go for an active crossover. And even better go for a current-drive (c.q. current source) amplifier to get rid of power compression and current distortion (by the voice coil and the microphone effect).
And, as a side effect of the active crossover, it makes the amplifiers hilarious more efficient. Suppose for example, you have four 4Ω drivers per channel (3-way and sub) and for each a signal of 100 Watt (20 Volt and 5 Ampere) you need four amplifiers delivering 100 Watt and a power supply delivering enough power for those 400 Watts (nice DIY job). If you keep your passive crossovers you need a total signal of 80 Volt (4 times 20) and 20 Ampere (4 times 5), thus 1600 Watts and a power supply for that. At least, because your passive crossover suck up quite some power. So the power amplifier is, with four drivers, at least 16 times as big and the power supply is at least 4 times as big. (All these numbers are for one channel only.)
The money you safe on the passive crossover components, the amplifiers and power supply you can use for some nice active crossover.
Back in 1981 when I went full active, it was told to me that just two 100 watt amps actively crossed was simular to one 400 watt system.
STEREO JUNKY That’s right!
Two amplifiers parallel is equal to 400 Watt (peak),
Three parallel 900 Watt,
Four parallel 1600 Watt,
Five parallel 2500 Watt, etc
But this is optimistic, only when power is equally distributed over the drivers. On the other hand with passive crossovers you lose quite some power.
@@JerryRuttenIt's been a real long long time since I heard soooo much active crossover poetry like that!!
STEREO JUNKY That’s why I don’t see any reason for using passive crossovers. Not a sound reason and not a budget reason.
Moreover the crossover frequencies of active crossovers are stable and independent of voice coil temperature.
@@JerryRutten Yes,
I going to stop there before I make a capacitor pop! Somewhere. Or some coil is going to saturate or catch fire! 😃
i did my crossovers some 8 years ago with jantzen caps and mox resistors. wow what a difference in clarity, instrument separation and soundstage ud/down especially. My tried and true Dali evidence 470se really liked that.
best regards from hifi-nørd Denmark
I obtained a pair of RtR HPR-12 Magnums from an old highschool classmate for a song.
They sounded pretty good - better than my Pioneer CS-99s, being more transparent and having *much*-better bass.
But these were made in an early production run, so they're over 45 years old, and it's well-understood that the electrolytic capacitors used at the time will go out -of-spec after a couple of decades, so I decided to upgrade the caps.
I bought some midrange foil Clarity caps ($75± for four capacitors between the two speakers). It was a very enjoyable afternoon, unhitching the circuitboard from the back of the case, removing the circuit-breaker reset switch as a source of noise in the signal path, and fitting the new caps to the circuitboard.
The improvement in the speakers' sound was immediate, and only got better over the next few days as the caps "burned-in." These units sounded good before, but now they really sing. The bass is tight and nearly flat down to 30Hz, the mids and highs are transparent, nuanced, and spacious. The improvement in soundstage is delicious.
The conventional wisdom is that you don't need to replace any resistors you might find, as these rarely go out-of-spec, though some people think that replacing old resistors with current-technology ones will improve things. You might also look into replacing any iron-core inductor coils with air-core inductors, but I'm not literate enough in that area to tell you where to begin finding a drop-in replacement.
So the roll-up is: Do the upgrade. Well worth the time and expense.
Yes do it, I have found building outboard crossovers put at the amp and run separate cables to the drivers, this makes a difference.
It depends on the speaker, if they have cheap drivers, forget it. If it had good drivers then it might be a good idea. Now there has been some videos talking about the newest Klipsh bookshelf speakers and what to do to the crossovers to make them sound better, and I'd be tempted to try those for my bedroom if I didn't already have some speakers to use there. But my living room mains are custom built as are the cross overs and I've yet to hear anything better at their price, and they are 18 yrs old now. When you buy quality it doesn't need to be replaced!
Saw a lightly used pair of Canton Reference 9.2 monitors for about $900. Speaking from experience Canton uses very high quality crossovers,cabinets, drivers in all their Reference lines..
I have redone internal crossovers for twenty years. There only done on speakers already giving you a worthy sound. But after most definitely no discussion they make stage difference. But again the speakers must already show that they are worthwhile for doing it.
Thinking of doing it to my tannoy's only eclipse 2 but have a good cabinet braced etc plus my budget isn't high also disabled one arm think ill be ok with the work changed a minis engine by self , spend about £50 on each speaker
What are some of the best stuff you can buy for crossovers brands that are high end. What are you guys using in your new line of speakers
I've had a good experience upgrading Carnegie CST-1's with "Sonicaps" and insulation from GR research.
I have another kit on the way from them for SVS Ultra Bookshelves.
Danny with GR research has several UA-cam videos to help education on this.
I have a pair of 25th Anniversary Advents that are in great condition. They have been re-foamed so I am good there. I was just wondering if it would be worth it to upgrade the crossovers in these 90's era Advents.
Yes! Replace the Caps and resistors with newer and higher quality ones of the same values. Capacitors can go bad over time. Replace iron core inductors with air core inductors made with larger gauge wire. Check with Danny at GR-Research as he may have upgraded Advent crossovers for folks before.
Check in with Danny at GR-Research and watch his videos on point to point re-wiring of crossovers. Very instructive!
Yep 😎
Components; I recommend Janzen Audio in Denmark, for both supply and their own lines. Super value - perhaps their 'Cross Caps' might be the best choice for you. Ranges are from quality budget to esoteric. great resistors and their custom inductor range is the best value around imo - great value air cores.
if you want to tweak a bit, you might consider making external crossover boxes, particularly as the better parts will likely be bigger. consider extra bracing/resonance control for the cabs, try increasing 'polyfill'. self adhesive bitumen panels are a cheap improvement for internal walls and also stiffen up cab. janzen also supply this stuff - no personal connection here, though i have been a happy customer. bare in mind bang for the buck sound wise can be impressive, though you won't get the money back on resale - view it as 'playing money' and you won't go wrong.
Suggested 1st base; tweeter cap/resistors replace with MOX's, cab damping.
I did this in my LS50, respecting manufacter specs, I chance the capacitors for mundorf AGO and Supreme evo oil, resists m-supreme and the internal cable for a Silver plate cooper Discovery... The speakers are much more natural, detailed and smooth too
I have a pair of Advent Legacy & they've only had the woofer foams replaced. I'd like to recap the crossovers but can't find much info about doing it. Any help???
The importance of driver quality is often overestimated, the importance of crossovers, cabinetry and driver alignment/arrangement is often underestimated.
It’s possible to obtain a very satisfying and enjoyable listening experience from run of the mill speaker drivers when they are used in a way that makes the best of what the driver has to offer.
I'm a DIY average Joe and for me I spend just as much time tweaking and modding gear and environment as I do sitting listening to music do there is no question at all, those Jamos would have had surgery at my place within a week;) also I have operated on many a stock COs and can say without a doubt a really good way to educate yourself on the equipment AND %99 on cheaper loudspeakers modding COs or replacing completely is fun and CAN sound much nicer! Like Nike, "Just do it":)
Crossovers is one of the first things that got me into audio when I was about 8 years old. I discovered I could run car woofers under my bed and use the signal from the woofer portion of flea market 3way speakers and it took of from there. I learned about impedance/ohms so I then only bought receivers that could go down to 4 ohm loads. The I fell in love with the Optimus STAV-3350 from radio crap/shack :) I shouldn’t bad mouth radio shack it’s where I got my start. But that optimus could handle 2 ohms but I never wired it to 2 ohms it was actually a pioneer come to find out my buddy’s dad had one only difference was his display was amber mine was blue ish white. And I’d had surround sound. So I could use it in Stereo mode and put out good bass or use the surround modes and watch movies ect. Blew out my dads stereo experimenting but he gave it to me years later I still have it. They repaired it by soldering in a bigger fuse now it’s temperamental and doesn’t like to turn on always. But got into car audio so yup! It all starts somewhere. I still remember the model though THE STAV-3350 :) probably kept me out of trouble come to think of it it kept me home.
Bought some Jantzen caps to upgrade my old Quart 350s and Advent 28s. However, recapping my old Dahlquist crossovers cost $230 for the new caps. They are huge, magnificent beasts compared to the old ones from the 1970's. We're talking 8 capacitors per crossover board.
Make yourself a kind of crossover sized breadboard, run a pair of leads from each driver to the listening position, mock up a starting point like the factory design and just sit down and plug n play baby! Makes me want to do it now.
Hi ! So I upgraded the capacitors in my 30 yo B&W DM640, w/Solen PP caps, and they became too bright! I really miss the smooth relaxed voice they had previously. What would you recommend?
That's where I started that led me to build my own speakers.
Someone built their own pair of electrostatic speakers and brought them to me for testing.
Back in the days, i built my own and outclassed many expensive speakers that were coming out... But, genius grade engineers like Andrew Jones, Greg Timbers, etc tend to make a lousy driver and lousy crossover sound phenomenally good for dirt cheap these days. After noting that i couldn't make them sound any better than these guys at these low price points, i started buying their speakers. I suspect most DIY guys who "THINK" they're really good couldn't do any better than the above mentioned engineers at dirt cheap price points either.
If you have speakers that are over say, 15 years old, definitely change the caps.
I recently "saved" few pairs of 70s/80s KLH IVs from the landfill.
Anyway, those old KLH used oil filled caps, (maybe PIO or paper in oil). Oil caps were a thing then so I assume lots of speakers used them. One hundred percent of the crossover caps were very bad, to to extent that the (perfectly okay) HF speakers didn't work/play at all. Fifty dollars in new mylar caps and both sets work just FINE again. A quick sand and stain and clean the grills with auto rug cleaner and looking good.
I'm still considering painting the woofer surrounds (the "front" side at least) with some latex restoration product, but they seem okay for now. Mixed messages for what to use, any suggestions?
Paul, you are a good guy , I wish I had a friend like you, we have so much in common with audio and are crazy youth years. I read your book & a vary good read. 🎼
waiting for neuro link technology to inject DSD files directly into my brain
Perfect topic! Thank you. In my studio is a pair of Yamaha HS8’s. Great studio monitors, however, I’ve thinking about the inductors and caps and whether the sound could be better. Thanks so much for giving your view on the subject!
Did you change them up? If so what was the difference?
@@teampyro911 I haven’t yet.
Cross-over that is built for 4 ohms. If I lower the resistance of the speakers, what happens to the frequency cut-off points?
I have some JBL L36 1978 and they sound great ... would they sound better with new ones? From what I know there paper capacitors.
I spent 300 on a triangle borea Br02 + 250 for air core coils heavy awg, jantzen caps, mills resistors, athom zef wire, new biding post 100% copper.
Verdict: those are not 550 bookshelf's speakers. More like 1500.
I did the same with the elac debut b5.2, even greater results.
Shame no one from PS Audio ever comes on here. Watching a video the other day and the date on the PC behind Paul was a month before. Paul must knock out 30 questions on a Sat and then sets up YT for them to be released on certain dates.
I’m pretty sure Paul has told us he does that. Who would go into the office every weekend to make a three minute video?
I am convinced of the possible benefit of crossover upgrades but where are good sources of those components? I can think of Parts Express. Are there any other recommended sources?
AJ Gilpin
Try Parts Connexion, GR- Research, HiFi Collective in the UK
I would love to get my hands on some Jamo R909 dipole speakers. Seriously good speakers.
Yes, Jamo has done many great speakers, Paul just don't know anything about Jamo.
@Fat Rat Seems that you and Paul aren't able to understand that Jamo makes different lines of loudspeakers in different price points to different kind of buyers where some speakers are good and some are worse.
Birger Olofsson was a bit surprise with Pauls comment about Jamo, off course they produce some mass products, but they also sell excellent speakers. wether they are cheap or not, it does not mater really matter. I have the D590 50Y aniversary and I’m so happy 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Im thinking of upgrading my Klipsch RP-160M. With mundorf caps. would it be worth?
I think Danny with GD research has a video on something similar
I have Infinity RS3000s 1988ish would it be good to upgrade the caps? Where would I start?
The wife bought me a pair of Vintage Klipsch Heresy’s at a pawn shop. Opened them up & found the wire to one tweeter was not connected. Reconnected and still no sound. While looking for new voice coils / diaphragm s I find out about Bob Crites. He sells new complete x-over boards for different models of Klipsch & recap kits too which is what I did. I wish I had of just done one first and compared the sound but didn’t.
but paul dont you think it might mess up the imagianing & critical midrange? .you can always take your chances on G.R. research...Unless youre an old timer whos Got some ancient Klipsch in the basement thats got nothing else to do why the hell not otherwise dont.!! upgrade the cables,amp first or modify it ..Hope I was helpful!
Good capacitors are not cheap, but they will definitely lift a veil off your speakers. Crossovers are often well designed but usually cheaply made. It is the place where manufacturers cut costs, even decent caps are often better than OEM quality. Get a good poly cap and you will often be better off than getting new speakers that also have cheap crossovers. If they are 12 db. the bypass caps do not need to be as good as the in line filter caps in the crossover.
I found this interesting website while back when i was hunting coupling caps for a DIY phono stage. "Humblehomemadehifi" dot "com" tests out different caps and has some good info on them. There are also examples of crossover upgrades done to clients and other useful info on DIY HiFi.
that's a great site with some great info! and they have a great services, I haven't used them but my friend used them to design him a x-over for a diy project he did and I'm going to use them for a DIY project I'm doing now, and they're not to pricey!
I have the other question. I have rather expensive speakers with most likely good components in their crossovers. But my speakers are maybe 15 years old. Does it work against crossover?
Could we meet some of the people who work at PS? Maybe little interviews about why they choose to work at PS over a competitor? High end audio is a rather small community overall and learning more about what makes PS special from the horses mouth as they say sounds like a good idea in my head LOL.
Can you also tell me if I am right here that the vocals and musical instruments sound better on a R2R Dac where as digital music sounds better on PWM/FPGA?
I know the question is un realated to the video but would appreciate ur input
Whut is better Polk s60 ore paradigm 6000f for movies gaming and music
Hi, could you offer any advice on whether tweeters degrade over time? I have a 20 year old set of KEF Concerto Ones which have a nice balanced sound but to my ears they seem to lack definition over the years. I'm looking to replace the tweeters and upgrade the crossovers. Kind regards, James.
There are a lot of variables but most tweeters themselves shouldn't really degrade per se unless some internal component of the tweeter suspension does. If the tweeter has ferro fluid inside, that could turn to sludge over time and should be cleaned out and replaced with fresh FF. The capacitors and maybe resistors can also drift from the original values and could be replaced and/or upgraded if you like. Anything that gets replaced should be as close to original values as possible (especially any tweeter replacement), or you risk botching the design up.
My advice is: if you like to mess with boards, cables, components and iron soldering, go ahead.
If you wanna a REAL improvement in sound, forget crossovers messing, give that pair to some NGO and go straight for new better speakers.
Or if you can look a guy with experience un recap and upgrade equipment, You can make a great goal with no much money
I think a better answer would to maybe talk about older klipsch or jbl or even b&w from the 90’s and rebuild the crossovers.
I just upgraded the capacitor and the resistance of my elac debut 2 b5.2.
Listening session is for Tuesday.
How did it go?
@JonMoralesLA Amazing, I found out that the harshness in most affordable well designed speakers comes from bad resistors. Better caps bring imaging. The coil help with layering but impossible to ear with an average system.
Can you recommend some good Capacitor brands and coils?
If you want good and not to expensive try Wima MKP caps and maybe Jantzen coils.
Dueland :-)
Janzen - good value, massive range from true 'budget audiophile' to esoteric.
@@JessHull duelund is the Best ever, but prices are huuge, mundorf ir jatzen are superb and not soo big
I completly don't understand all this hate on Jamo. In Europe, where I live, their products are considered as high quality and probably "Best bang for Your Buck" as you like to say. They are not for audiophiles but for a normal human being they are great. And originally they are from Denmark which is considered the capital of europeanHiFi. They look great, last many years, sound good. Almost non cons in this price range.
Uhhh dear Paul what happened with JAMO 😢😢
Does anyone have a crossover schema for upgrading the Elac debut 6.2? If so please post.
I have been messing with my DSP for a couple days now. Playing with optimizing the the values for each driver. Whats really cool is having different profiles.
In a 2 way bookshelf system, having different modes at a push of a button can make a difference. One mode for running them hard and another for low level playing. Almost like a 6 position loudness button but done digitally. Forget passive. IMO and get a DSP!
If you want to hobby shop your speakers, the possibilties are amazing. Also the different types of crossovers included make adjustments so precise.
One amp channel for every driver, forget playing with outdated tech.
I've been using a PC based digital crossover for about a year now, sounds much better than a passive crossover, and can be changed on the fly. Best upgrade I've ever done.
@@bobo1on1 Sounds neat. Is there a model number?
@@sailingaquarius23 No model number, it's a desktop computer with an Asus essence stx II 7.1 sound card, running jack, pulseaudio and my own software on Linux. Audio is sent to it over ethernet, but analog line in is also available.
Good job brother
Especially if the speaker manufacturer’s cheap caps are over 20 years old and dried out.
In order of importance...
1. Upgrade to Mills resistors.
2. Upgrade from cheap caps.
3. Upgrade from cheap inductors...
If you want to do the least to really improve the sound upgrade the caps. If you only want to change one cap do the tweeter cap. Use a good film cap if you can.
@@andershammer9307
The Washington DC speaker builders club (back in the 2000s) did all this testing in a double blind format.
I stated the results we found. First, resistors for tweeters. Then caps, then inductors.
But data and testing doesn't impact beliefs.
@@drgjs I think many would agree that caps would have much more of a change to the sound than resistors. I used to modify stereo equipment for a living and I did what made the most change first.
Ohh and I used to read Speaker Builder magazine.
The subjective impressions of a bunch of DIY enthusiasts aren't persuasive. The applicable math and known component characteristics say ditch any NP electrolytics in the signal path, the same goes for cored inductors. That said, neither category is especially problematic in a shunt (parallel) role in the circuit as long as the component in question is in good condition. Resistors? Unless they're highly inductive or out of tolerance, replacing them with pricey "audio grade" parts won't do squat.
Liar! Their Oriel is as extraordinary as you can get. An old speaker but they have done more "exclusive" speakers also.
You just don't know their history.
Passive crossovers are Pie in The Sky over most of the globe now. You can't get such components nowadays and then I don't think you ever could either. These components, you would find are manufacturers specials that might or might not have the exact value marked on them. They will have been selected to match the impedances of the chassis units. I feel obliged to point out that the only way to obtain accurate crossover nowadays is by active filtering . Your advice will do nothing apart from a slight amount of financial easement in the component supply industry.
GR Research has a lot of good information on the topic of upgrading crossovers. Using RP-600 as an example the entire process is covered in a multiple video series starting here: ua-cam.com/video/NH4xI5VXR_o/v-deo.html . Do be aware Paul was talking about keeping the electrical values as factory designed the upgrade being to better quality parts. GR Research does both quality of components upgrades and when warranted redesign of the crossover as in the RP-600 series.
Yep, I've done one upgrade from GR research, and I have another on the way
Ha ha, shit components, liked that, honest answer, that's what it's all about!
Congrats on your 100k Subs
"Futz"
yes
YES get rid of all internal crossovers. Buy a dbx driverack and have a pro guy calibrate for amps and your ROOM..
Whatever you do, do not use Duelund parts. You will never climb out of that rabbit hole.
Hmmm, new business idea for me... 🤔😁
Any blind tests done to see if its just all in your mind....seen and heard it many times before....
Yamaos ?????
There isn't any evidence that crossover part quality makes any difference at all to perceivable sound. It's difficult to pickup even minute changes when measured with a very precise and expensive microphone, even if you know what to look for.
There is a reason why Danny doesn't show you distortion graphs.
Is Paul miss pronouncing Yamaha (yam-a-har) as it sounds like he is saying "Yam-o"?
No, Paul is correctly pronouncing Jamo. :)
No need to be rude to me Sahdin, I have never come across the brand "Jamo" before and I would pronounce "Jamo" as "Jam-o" not "Yam-o" anyway.
I am in the UK, maybe the brand is not as popular over here. I know Richer Sounds don't sell Jamo.
I never said anything about being a genius or otherwise.
I took him calling me a genius as sarcasm. A bit like if I said "Well done genius for breaking my iPhone and not telling me", meaning it as a insult.
Or, just go crossover-less full range single driver. :)
I have a small single driver speaker. I also have 2 way, 3 way and a 4 way system. I build speakers and while there is nothing wrong with a single driver system, it actually does some things quite well, calling it "full range" is a stretch. They work well for near range low level is my experience. Distortion in speakers is usually higher than in any other part of the system. A single driver speaker will have more distortion than a multi driver system if equal quality components are used. At a given price point it has merit, but if money is available a good multi way with good crossovers (not cheap) or electronic crossover will be better for "full range" reproduction. Using my 1/3 octave real time analyzer I have gotten best results with an electronic crossover and multi driver system. -Norman
@@kirarittberg5088 This is why I bought full range electrostatic speakers. Distortion is measurably lower and they sound better.
Back loaded horns are a great example.
@@paullazarro531 Horns like Voice of the Theater can sound really good especially if driven with tube electronics but I still prefer electrostatics.
@@andershammer9307 Yep, electrostatics are hard to beat!
My Jamos sucked, I sent them back
What model and why it suck?
vaughn tonkin s801pm replaced with Powered Klipsch for for only a few dollars more
NO!!!! FOR SO MANY REASONS!! THE #1 REASON, HOW DARE YOU!
Crossover are designed and made for each specific speaker's model. Take Infinity for example. Everyone talks about how cheap their woofers are (RS line). You think re-doing the crossover is going to make them better? More like you will over drive them and burn them up or if lucky just change their sound all together. The whole speaker (box, crossover, drivers) is a symphony of parts of what was available at the time at a certain cost point. I have 2 sets of Infinity RS IIIa's. I had to replace 1 cap in one set (to make the set match) because when doing new pots I broke a lead off one of the caps. replaced with the same values and just the one cap, they sound different then the other set when they did not before. The crossover is made to take advantage of the box it is in and the drivers it feeds. The drivers are used to take advantage of the box and the crossover. The box is used to make the drivers that is being feed from the crossover sound better. The bottom line is a true audiophile would never tamper with the set up because the maker made it that way. They would have to just buy new speakers and listen to them the way the maker intended. Again, HOW DARE YOU....
With that said, I just took a set of 1974 Realistic Nova 4's, they used to call them "cathedral speakers" because of the grills they use and installed Infinity Qe crossovers, horn tweeters and pyle 8" woofers in them. They are pretty kick-ass for the garage. Would I do that to my IRS IIIa's, nope. Over the years I really wanted to add a second Emit tweeter to each speaker but never had the heart to cut the box (how dare I...) so I just built EMIT satellites to sit on top of them. There is just some lines you don't cross. lol. I really think the main reason is I never wanted someone to look at the name plate and then the speaker and say they don't match. Once custom ...always custom.
IMHO if you want to change them up then go for it but be aware that there is risks and rewards like the speakers not being original anymore (resale value), audiophile looking down their noses at you and most of all you may or may not like what's on the other side even with a simple recap of what you have. Just depends on where the chips fall.
Wow! I'm rocking in the free world! The deed is already done. Paul messed with the IRSV's. But thats what we do. I dont buy Hi end and I dont sell anything. So Cut that box down, get a DSP, some good amps and have a Big Mac n fries ta boot! (IMO)
@Fat Rat I don't think you got my sarcasm.
To be honest I have to say I was pretty shocked that Paul said go for it though. This is a guy that will not give you tone control on his stuff (because that is the way it should sound and if it don't then fix the room to make it sound that way) and yet is saying ditch someone else's stuff and change it. I'm not above it. I just put Infinity Qe crossovers in Radio shack boxes. But like I said there is a line and for me it's my IIIa's. I mean if you want to hot rod up a 1980's mustang I could care less. Now if you want to hot rod up a 1966 numbers matching low miles Mustang I may frown on that.
I got some old nova's also. My dad was into the RS stuff in the 70's. Didn't you loose some upper midrange putting some Piles in there? Oh well. I still say cut the box volume in half and add a sub playing the same freq as the main. But thats just too junky for some people.
It works because those to woofers compliment each other. One tuned high and one low. BTW I know what you're saying about the Mustang's. Thats my first trade. Auto tech. Drove one of the first Mustang 5.0's 5 speed 1979 model. Was my step brothers friend. Loved it! Although I was brought up Chevy Malibu 283 converted to 327 by my dad to pull a travel trailer better.
Its not so much that with tone controls. Just passing the signal through that circuit with the knobs at zreo does deteriorate the signal. My wife can hear the difference between that and "direct in" on our 90's Marantz.
Don’t forget the cheap speaker box that resonates. Add braces and sound deadening material to the walls and speaker spider frame.