Why I like C programming more than Web Dev (rant)
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- Опубліковано 28 січ 2024
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Yes I could've built my own graph lib. But my point is it doesn't make sense to do that in web dev. The reason you don't use a lot of external dependencies in C isnt a matter of personal preference, it's just that most types of C programming don't require many dependencies.
I'm NOT saying C is the better tool for the job in this case. I'm saying I like C programming better, partially because it's closer to the hardware level and requires less abstraction in most cases.
The abstraction that actually is required can be understood by C fundamentals, e.g. fork a process, file descriptors, etc.
Anyways, this was more of a rant video. Not trying to downplay webdevs, obviously most of the important software being made today is web applications.
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I'm curious, what part of webdev do you guys actually enjoy? (other than learning a new framework every year to solve the exact same problems as before, except in a slightly different way :p).
Feel free to roast me back, I like it.
I hate dependencies so much, I unplugged my ethernet cable and code only in handwritten Assembly.
Yeah I hate dependencies too. Especially when the docs are barely written at all and you just have to turn to a yt tutorial or some external guide to figure out how it works. My favorite thing about web dev is just making something for people to enjoy, rather than "enjoying the process".
"The reason you don't use a lot of external dependencies in C isnt a matter of personal preference, it's just that most types of C programming don't require many dependencies."
True but the idea that C programming has less abstractions(dependencies) than Web dev isn't necessarily true. Abstractions tend to increase as the magnitude and components of an issue increase. A lot of C programming in undergrad involved problems that are minuscule to what it takes to maintain and build a codebase that supports an entire business.
can we all agree that writing stuff on our own is more fun but an objective, althoug sad, waste of time when the purpose is to actually deliver something of a value in a reasonable amount of time and within a budget?
I have been working with react and react native for around 5 years, and have been employed much of that time as a software developer, I cant really speak for all "javascript" packages and libraries, but I would completely disagree with the statement, "learning a new framework every year to solve the exact same problems". I think a lot of people dislike web development, because they choose some offshoot weird library that has little support, even less good packages, and little documentation (angular, flutter, vue, the list goes on), and then decide its not good enough for them, and they should move into something else... So my recommendation, is to use the most popular, and robust libraries, unless you have a very specific reason to use one of the other ones (not just, "ewww I don't like react or the way its written!", but a real and legitimate product limitation).
So... I would just say now that you have chosen something like "angular", you are forced to use something like:
swimlane.github.io/ngx-graph/
Instead of... reactflow.dev/
TLDR; Use React, don't waste your time with all the other crap out there.
Anything is better than Web dev.
This has happened to me so many times and it finally made me understand why a lot of people hate web development.
Mostly frontend, though
I hate web dev because every client thinks the web should behave like an native app, with route transitions by default, fixed screen size, no accessibility concern, can weight 100mb and all bundle downloaded at once etc
Yes he become number one disgrace
I don't hate web dev but I'm tired that all my jobs are about web 🤐
@@parlor3115backend framework libraries aren’t much better. Their release notes are trash, and they change syntax for basic calls far too regularly. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen release docs indicating they’ve fixed an isssue, without telling you they changed the function names. Front end is definitely worse though, they update stuff in storybook and post no code to see the components they’ve changed sometimes. Like what, do you want me to view source? It’s storybook, that’s literally the fucking purpose of storybook 😂
Earlier the job used to be Software Engineering. Now the job is just glueing together APIs.
Yup. I'm not seeing much original programming anymore, it's just taking a load of different digital Lego bricks and fitting them together in order to do something.
@@mxbx307 It depends on what you consider "original". Technically, all code is original. All "higher than C" level of languages are Lego bricks. List is an abstraction to make working with arrays easier, GC helps you not worry about memory. And it goes however wide you want it to be. So what, everything that is not C is not original? Every game that uses Unity engine is also "not original"? Every and any mistery novel is "not original" because there are already thousands of mistery books out there? Makes no sense. Especially in web dev, where everything is already written mostly. You guys talk like you would rather build your own frontend framework and libraries from scratch or what? Complaining for the sake of complaining, I see nothing more. I would say there is enough original stuff in webdev, if you are at the edge and not working with outdated technologies. With the rise of WASM, webgl, the possibilities are endless. Some companies may create simplest dashboards, and some (usually startups) would create something more innovative, it is your choice where you want to end up. You guys severely underestimate the amount of complexity these "lego bricks" bring to the table. You think you just combine 3-4-5 simple api-to-api lego bricks, but in a complex project it is tens, if not hundreds of such lego bricks, intertwined with your own code, and you need to know how each of them works and interacts with each other at the deepest level, to properly optimize the performance. And those lego bricks are not even always your own code, it is something you have no control over, but you need to understand them and always have their intricacies in your mind. You guys underestimating frontend sound like: "oh, art? you just draw a couple of lines and you have a Mona Lisa, nothing complicated really, just a bunch of lego bricks. Now architecture on the other hand is much harder...". In reality it is as shallow or as deep as you want it to be. This pointless webdev hate needs to stop seriously.
@@twothreeoneoneseventwoonefour5 Gigachad web dev here.
@@lashlarue7924😂😂
@@twothreeoneoneseventwoonefour5"all higher than c" languages definitely are NOT Lego bricks and this comes from a person who dislikes "higher than c" programming.
Exactly my experience. C, C++ programming and actually implementing the algorithms and data structures is what's fun to me, and learning new things in the process.
Web development is just this, handling many dependencies hoping they play nice with each other, and you don't get to build the interesting parts, you only connect them together... Exactly my problem with web dev.
You know why? Because implementing algorithms is easy.
@@i-am-the-slime only if they are shit
@@i-am-the-slime I disagree, it forces you to actually think about solutions and logic, instead of gluing libraries together, which is just busy and boring work to have something function.
@@i-am-the-slimegreat point! I see that in learning playing the piano to, just learning patterns and algorithms. Learning piano scales is just a pattern.
This is basically the opposite of actual engineering. Go learn category theory and realize how unimportant obsessing over algorithms is
I was a low level device driver dev in C for the first 7 years of my career. Learned a ton building out all sorts of drivers and OS features for a router like product. Then, made the switch to web development doing loads of React and Nextjs. For me each has their own values. I love building something I can show my family instead of a command line interface. Building great UX is practically an art. But so can writing C. I’ve spent hours debugging webpack before. I’ve also spent days trying to track down some esoteric makefile problem with a gigantic makefile that had a lot of tech debt. No matter what level you are programming at you will bang your head on the wall at some point or another.
totally agree, every part of the world has it's own pain. that's why we called "get your hand dirty"
As a recent grad in computer engineering, any advice on getting a low level job? Feeling a bit naive. Thank you.
fake history
@@DD8MO610Software Development, Web Development, Network Engineer, Sys Admin.
Low Level Jobs such as Aerospace, Electronics Microprocessors and Embedded are not entry level. You need to be experienced on those jobs above to be one.
You dont have to be tho. Afterall CS, IT and CPE all have same job opportunities. Its just that CPE has those additional electronics, microprocessors and embedded classes (shout out to those useless Physics, Chemistry and Biology classes too lmao).
This feels like the most well rounded answer hands down
Web development nowadays basically boils down to integrating dozen SaaS services "with generous free tier". Which is understandable, using already existing solutions is a good idea instead of making your own. I hate it but I understand it. With that said, if you hate this trend then maybe web development is not for you. You should try embedded programming, systems programming, game development or whatever else exists.
Any alternatives to embedded, sys programming and game dev? Maybe cloud computing, data engineering?
Recently I realized that using a lot of already existing libs and frameworks which always require reading docs a lot gives me zero drive as basicaly I do not use my math and algorithmic skills, instead I seat for hours trying to understand unknown bugs or ask chatgtp to code what I want without even understanding the thing.
@@franokkkappa8882 I do programming on the aws cloud related to Dr and backup using java 8 and aws sdk. So far most of my work has been - understanding the codebase and coding style followed in my company, interacting with aws services using aws sdk where you have to call methods/APIs for various functions and some other tools. So far, the main part that takes thought is the research about a service, use cases, various configurations for the service. What data should be stored, how should be stored, creating tables, etc. and I think most cloud related development should be in the same ballpark. The most here important learning for me has been reading the existing codebase which helped me learn about various Design patterns used like strategy, factory, adapter and builder pattern, multithreading and many nuances about java. You can maybe find some help as to what cloud development is like (again this had been my work as a junior Dev in a startup so things may vary) and if you wanna get into cloud development
@@franokkkappa8882 you're probably looking for python? You can think in mathematics and get stuff done without much boilerplate.
@@franokkkappa8882 If you want to use math and algorithms then data science/engineering like you mentioned sounds great. You’re going to end up using Python with existing libs and reading docs though. Another option may be application programming (not APIs) writing software people use that is math heavy on the backend like Photoshop & other applications that require clever applications of math and algorithms to really push performance.
Don't forget you sign up for something like Azure to host your site. The runtime cost of your instance is negligible, the cost of your storage is trillions despite the virtual disk being so small it belongs in the 1980s.
Been there. I've seen people move back to on-prem because of that and similar nonsense.
Bro so relatable lmao. You spend hours figuring out why something isn't working, but even after you fix it you don't feel like you learnt anything cos you'll never use that crap again. When you aren't using libraries and external tools as much, you know more about the inner working and can debug better. Even if you have to go hunting for a solution to your bug, you'll end up learning stuff and will use this later.
Shoutout to everyone who gives back to the community by answering on stack overflow and such
I feel that way too. We want to become engineers that make those tools (make libraries), not be developers (use libraries).
That's what I thought some time ago, I would like to create/produce the tech and tools we use, and not to be the user of those things ...
Hmm I think it is the same thing though. People always use something abstracted to build something. There can be a lot of complexity either way, either it is a library, or a whole blown project with a non trivial use case. Someone may like developing a "heat statistics library" and someone may like developing the "scientific dashboard" that uses a bunch of those libraries to aggregate the statistics, process, visualize and make dynamic user event interactions, for example. Both are fun imo.
and in order to write your own library you have to use external libraries ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Lol engineers and developers both integrate and build system..Even if your title is a software engineer, you have at some point have to use other dependencies..think about efficiency rather than what's fun. Sure at some point you have to build the solution yourself. In general, just stay at the middle ground.
I don’t know man I just wanna make a living, and the wage way ain’t gonna cut it too. Build your tool, then build a company on top of it
I remember back in college, I was chilling programming in c++ for two years and web programming course came to me. The learning curve was a mess. That's the first time I felt hatred in programming.
I remember when I was a kid I used to make websites in plain HTML, CSS, and PHP. It was fun to do. Then in college I joined a webdev club and had to start learning React. Oh boy, even after already having used Node.js for a variety of different projects, I was not having a good time learning React.
Why did you force yourself into web dev. It is a completely different mindset and skills, not much easier than low-level programming in C
This is why i love game dev, more primarily graphics development and using maths everywhere, its fun
how did you learn all the math for graphics development
@@NovallovesgamesLinear algebra and multivariable calculus is the only requirement, just if you prefer, you can learn from pdfs, wikipedia, or use video tutorials if you like.
Interesting comment. Didn't enjoy gamedev a lot when I tried, with the exception of graphics programming. Felt like a lot of work creating textures setting up levels instead of problem solving and coding. The time to reward ration didn't feel great to me either, it took a massive amount of hours to make 1 min of medium quality gameplay.
@@brunojambeiro6776do you know what career path is good for problem solving? Im so confused rn
@@josemou6172 I mean, I am currently in university and don’t have any work experience. My plan was just to work on AI or some other field which involved a lot of math. Graphics programming was actually pretty enjoyable, but it was just a small part of doing an entire game. If you are more artistically inclined than I am then perhaps you will enjoy game dev more than me, since I didn’t enjoy drawing textures or making/designing levels.
To me this is just a general approach that some people have. Regardless of language. C is no different when it comes to dependency hell. It's just that you kind of create it yourself, due to vendoring, or your forget it after having spent an enormous amount of time with CMake or the like.
If you were to do any async programming, graphics (3D, 2D, GUI, etc.), audio, you name it; something more that "just manipulating memory", chances are that you'd have a similar experience scouring for suitable libraries in the same vein, and having to deal with those who then have ton of extra dependencies.
I agree with your last statement. It's fun to build it yourself; of course it's not always viable in cases where you are restricted by deadlines and whatnot, but for the most part, whether it's C, JavaScript or any other ecosystem, it's fun to try and build it yourself and learn from it.
C dev, same thing and stuck with bunch of Tint as well. I hope someday we get paid to reinvent
Sometimes I honestly find it simpler to "reinvent the wheel" then having to learn someone else's api. Most of my PR comments at work have been "use instead". If the use case is complex and my own implementation is buggy, I get it. but a lot of times if it is something fairly simple and it works I dont see the point of ripping it out and npm installing another package. But hey...
Truly feel the same way.
Feels more like fiddling and getting "stuff to work" than problem solving
I've just been thinking about this recently. I've been feeling not unhappy, but sort of half-happy in my daily work for years at this point, like most days I'm not into it that much but then I'll get one or two days every week when I really just get into the flow of coding and solve problems and I feel happy, and this is why I became a developer, this is the high I'm chasing. And I realized this happens the moment I go back to basics, when I'm writing algorithms, doing loops, and conditions, so in summary when I'm solving complex logical puzzles, not when I'm basically just configuring and orchestrating already existing tools. And sadly a lot of the most in demand and well paid areas of the industry have been for a good while becoming less and less of the former and more and more of the latter. I guess it's sort of just the way it works, it's our profession, creating software so other people can get things done more efficiently, but ironically this affects our own field as well, we're basically continually optimizing out the fun part of our work, which makes me incredibly sad.
why didn't you create your own graph-ui from scratch for your website? 🤔
😂😂😂😂
He’s trash that’s why and can’t
Yeah, you can make it easily with lerps. You would have to search for some mathy stuff tho
If you want to do it by hand like you do in C, do it, none is stopping you.
The thing with web development is that it's a lot of complexity abstracted away form you, you have the freedom to do things by hand and do them however you want, which is something i prefer to do personally (for everything that isn't "really hard" to make like monaco editor) because it gives you more control on your code, but many people just go the lazy route and just install the dependency, you do that to yourself, it's not web development.
C has libraries too, and things that you absolutely need to use if you don't want to go on a one year roll on making your own implementation, it always depends on what you need to do, people see web development with things premade so they think it's all nice and simple, but all those dependencies are really complex under the hood.
I also see many many first coders saying "oh c and c++ is better" yet the most they have done is a one/two files script with some CLI input and output, ofc you like it more, you barely got the tip of your foot into it, the program opens once, runs, and finishes.
THIS 🙌
Absolutely agreed 👍
That's why we don't like it it's abstracted from you
@@tanura5830but... You aren't forced to, go make it raw
My take on the problem is that if you're a professional C programmer, you either build up your own dependencies or you build up a list of other's dependencies that you know how to make use of. If you already know how to implement the various data structures you need, don't keep reimplementing them unless it's for fun, use a library. If it's your own, then great, but it doesn't have to be. Though, I will say that I've been unhappy with most of the various UI libraries for a while now. It doesn't help when they seem to revel in making breaking changes. I'm sure some people will make excuses and rationalize on the time periods but when you've been at it for 25 years you expect an interface to last longer than 5 or 10 years.
Win32 for the win! (Just not very happy about the direction Microsoft is going with Windows 11+ however.)
@@ScienceAfterDark Sadly true, and I'm a Linux user. Of course, because of WINE and my old school knowledge of Win32 from my Win98 days, I could still make use of that stable interface if I wanted. So in a way, it's still also a Linux win because I've got *many* choices.
Love to see your perspective on C vs web dev. I am a self-taught web dev with 7 years of experience and it is really interesting to me how someone like you looks at web dev. I feel your pain by the way. Just been upgrading an 8 year old React codebase to React 16.9 (will get to 17 or 18 eventually) and it was not fun. The pp was crashing without any errors at some point.
ua-cam.com/video/CXFRMr40pPc/v-deo.htmlsi=SJ0hmIZvFUacFY9l
This is exactly how I feel. I like the problem solving part of programming. Not the finding other stuff to do this for me part.
I've only used vanilla JS to code some small functionalities for basic sites but wow I feel this way about Python (data science type work)! It feels like lego but the pieces are from different sets! The data types coming out of the libraries don't want to talk to each other and then suddenly my version of Python is too high for the library, then C/C++ dependency issues creep in and I need to containerise everything with specific pinned libraries (down to the patch) tied to a specific version of Python and such so it doesn't break... I also find the whole 'reads like English' thing to be overstated imho
It's worse with JS
I've had the opposite experience personally. When something breaks in Python I'm like "yeah I can definitely figure this out"
When something breaks in JS I pray I can figure it out lol
You actually articulated this so well, I've been feeling like my job has just been piecing together libraries to make something useful instead of actually building something myself, I still enjoy it but it feels more like combining different pre-built Lego sets to make a cool city of Lego buildings, instead of building a Lego house from scratch by yourself.
This is it! This is what I've been feeling too, when I'm developing websites using today's modern stacks. It doesn't really feel like I'm an engineer, I know they're there to make our lives easier, but you know I just don't get the spark of programming because I just spend my day to look for libraries and learn those libraries instead of building something from scratch on my own.
Broo 😭
I can use html, CSS, js/ts and when I was learning angular, it didn't feel like I was doing JavaScript anymore.
C is about using few libraries and thinking how to do a task
javascript is about using lots of libraries and finding which one is suitable for task
Kind of agree with this, just like people would enjoy cooking more while at camping rather than at home. But the problem will not change unless you can find a job building something from scratch and I would say most of the job just building block using dependency and even worst maintaining it with some legacy package.
The main difference is that C doesn't have a package manager with dependency management so C libraries tend do be self-contained more often then not, thus avoiding those kind of problems.
I agree 100%. I started with JS programming in the mid 2000s and had a lot of fun. But over time using JS didn't felt I was solving any problems but rather just puzzle together half baked external solutions and libraries. I had the feeling I had to solve problems that wouldn't exist if I would just solve the issue from scratch. Instead I have to blame programmers I don't even know for errors that aren't mine. This became worse and worse.
I switched eventually to C#, then C++ and now I am programming games in Unreal 5.
Recently I had to briefly work on a web app using react and oh boy, I don't miss webdev.
Interestingly my journey went the other way around! I started with C++ UE4 and kind of stopped with UE5. I think the advantage with webdev is definitely that as a one man show you can make things happen without having to rely on a large team of artists designers etc. So I guess swings and roundabouts
I'm choosing one right now... web dev or game development. One look at job postings tells me I should go for web dev if I want a job.
@@RisenThe dont let them gaslight you, web dev is where money and W/L balance is. I have friends in game development, they all work really long hours and on top of that have worse salaries.
Is it fun designing the world etc?
Creating chatacter and actors in unreal made me stop learning it. I always messed up with level creation etc.
But i love the C++ programming part.
Any advice plz?
@@yahyaa4499 Unreal is quit a beast, I also did Unity before that. Unity is pretty good to just get going. Unreal has a lot of manual work going on before you can actually concentrate on the game making part. For a one person project I would maybe stick with unity for now.
C was my first programming language. I love it even though sometimes I do segfaults.
Nowadays, there are many tools which help you figure out the cause of segfaults easily. Major issue is detecting them before release 😂
@@kartik4792 there is also Rust that won't allow you to compile code that leaks or segfaults
I also rarely find segfaults to be that hard to debug after getting more used to C. When an segfault happens I generally have a good idea what part of my code produced it. Then I just look to see if there are any obvious bugs that could cause "out of bounds" errors, maybe put some print statements here and there. Even while making semi complex projects it's been a while since I've gotten stuck on a segfault.
Honestly I loved doing C, there's just something incredibly cool about doing all the low-level stuff, and segfaults are usually not that difficult to fix, there's tools like valgrind for that. In retrospect why I wouldn't do C again is the lack of proper build tools, make, cmake and the like are just such a pain in the ass...
@@recarsion That's actually true. Starting a project and setting up build tools is pain in C relative to newer language s like rust and zig. I think we can use zig's build tool for C.
Oh, finally someone that tells this story. I hate when people bring the big “ecosystem” as some plus of a language, while in reality, most of the time, the work to make random libraries work together or, even worse, maintaining that code requires much more effort than rewriting everything from scratch. I had a similar issues with a python application I was developing with tons of dependencies that started randomly conflicting. I had to first downgrade and fix all the version (which was a hell to figure it out what version was working before), then somehow, pip managed to broke also that as one of the library version ceases to exist on the repository, and then all again the work of finding new fixed versions that work. It is like this every few months. Returning back, I would simply rewrite everything from scratch and avoiding libraries at all except for the basic ones (numpy)
This is a great rant.. When I learned to program I fell in love with understanding things at a low level, data structures, algorithms, problem solving, building whatever I want... Then it turns out that 90% of modern day programming is not any of that, it's like you said.. a scavenger hunt. Wading through endless amounts of libraries, APIs, documentation, abstractions, error codes, community posts, etc.
Learning a large codebase is a similar experience. Wading through endless abstractions to finally piece together the actual logic / work that's being done!
I learned C/C++ during my undergrad for embedded system applications. It was fun to be given how a motor vehicle or sensor should receive data and how I should manipulate that data by implementing my own specific logic to make a decision for the microcontroller to do. I like making and figuring my own logic to how something should work. I don't like it when a library does everything for me. I sometimes question and want to see how the library does a certain part of the logic or conversion of data rather than just accept that it works.
This is why I hate web development jobs in general and it never works for me. You learn the basics and then when you enter a company doing web development, you're almost going insane. To create this feature, you need to use this framework and you set it up in your laptop. Suddenly, there are so many packages and dependencies needed to install before you start doing the actual work, jump through so many hoops and search even before you start building a feature. Don't get me started that every single year there's a new JavaScript framework pop up and you also need to catch up with the existing framework.
this is the burnout I had after college, all the concepts feel like they're for nothing but interview prep
Very well said!!
I started programming with Java as my first language. I learned it through a book called "Introduction to Java Programming and Data Structures" by Y. Daniel Liang, and those times were the best so far in my coding journey. Working on that book's problems, I felt challenged and had a feeling of achievement with everything I was learning! But nowadays working on modern frameworks, is just learning about the framework itself, not the actual problem-solving! Now, I just feel useless, to be honest. 😒
I hope the programming gets back to its original enjoyment state!
agree, also started with c and I hate how different issues are in web dev and anything you do in c, in c it's difficult to make anything so you need to learn how to do it by yourself and you grow, in web dev you just need to remember different exceptions and interactions between different libraries and api's, which isn't easy but your skillset is limited to those tools and if they ever change you can still remember the basic principles which caused errors but you can't really change/fix them in the first place, with all that said I'm still a junior :D
From my own experience I would always get more excited doing embedded programming vs anything to do with web or web adjacent technologies.
You know JavaScript devs are loosing it when your using a library to add strings together, a library to check if a variable is an integer
I feel you and this happened numerous times in my coding career. But this is life for a developer. It could be worse for some language/platform but in general they are pretty much the same when you are facing a business need and you try to look for a better solution.
Yep, my job as a web dev is mostly setting up libraries, reading the docs to learn how to configure them, or when the docs don't support what I want I'll write a few lines of js or css to hack my solution. Not much actual coding happens
I feel the same way. I generally enjoy vanilla Javascript, but prefer C-like languages where using dependencies isn't the norm. I try to build most things myself unless I absolutely don't have the skill, or if doing so would take an unbelievable amount of time. This is one of the reasons I prefer vanilla JS: I almost never work on a project massive enough to require React.
I think I'm gonna be writing (C++) libraries at my next job (I start next week!!!) so hopefully exactly that sort of implementing algorithms fun
I just do web dev with PHP(7.4), and most of if not all the libs that I'm using at my current job are done in-house, and for the front-end part I'm using Vanilla JS which gets the job done pretty fast, even though the code can get messy if I don't have a well defined structure before coding.
Well, that’s not about C versus JS at all, nothing is stopping you from building it from scratch in JS
I started my career in frontend. I went deeper into frontend, all the way to frontend infrastructure. Maintaining the entire "ecosystem" around static type tools, frontend package management, GraphQL libraries, etc.
I am now far and away from it, writing literally only C++ at Faang, and the happiest I've been in my entire career.
I currently work mostly with fullstack TS/React and I 100% I agree. I couldn't take it anymore. I took a paycut and quit my job to get a new position working in Rust.
Oh yeah I feel where you’re coming from. C is a hard language (and C++ is just a tad easier imo ), but what I like about them is that I don’t have to deal with package managers too much.
The python language can be hard to work with at times because of its package manager (ironically it’s one of the easier languages), and I gave up on Dlang because it’s package manager was impossible for me to figure out lol
C programming is in my opinion much more rewarding than web dev, any day of the week. It feels more like actual engineering.
2:30 "skill goes out the window". This is where experience comes in, I guess. agree dependency management kind of sucks, though! webpack is a huge pain, though.
One thing thing about webdev and all the tooling/integration is you can get a lot done really fast! I agree coding the thing is more fun than wiring the thing, but a lot of webdev is about business value - using things and spending a few hours tinkering with deps has a much bigger ROI than implementing X from scratch.
You said it, man
U right bro! That's the reason why i love backend dev.Even with moderns frameworks or libraries working on backend i can get reduce this kind of problems.I like c lenguaje too
Do you want to say that guy from the video meant frontend when he said "webdev"? If so, can you say that backend dev remains more fun and interesting in this regard than frontend?
@@baldislavep00pczynski68 Not really , i said that when u working with webdev you'll probably get this situations but at backend it is less common.Anyways , for me is more fun backend , but it's just a opinion
@@baldislavep00pczynski68 atleast you don't have to write long boring css 😂
@@papasligeramentesaladas8514 same
I started in web and took the C-pill a few years ago. I never want to go back
Perfect... Always finally depends on language c or cpp
Agreed, this happens to me. The web Javascript/Typescript and NPM world really just about adding more and more plugins i.e. dependencies with exponential unreliability and compatibility + bugs every time you add another. There will be neverending updates and revisions every week, some don't change your program, some will make your program buggy, some will even crash your program. The more complex project you have the more time you spend on others internal code or documentation or StackOverflow just to find out, maybe, that their plugin is buggy.
Nah, you're wrong. In C developers don't have dependecies because it's easier to write the whole thing than to add dependency in C. Compare it to Rust or Go, where projects can have a lot of dependencies, because of how easy it is to add one.
I dislike webdev because of how many ways you can develop an application. A "default" way doesn't exist. You can have a popular one (React), a trendy one (Svelte, htmx), an old one (jQuery), an easy one (lambdas, firebase), etc. And all of these have its own shortcomings!
i agree 100%, the moment that is not an skill issue what you are trying to solve makes it frustrating
Java solved this problem of transitive dependency management some 15 years ago with Maven. Until then, we suffered through this same hell. Nowadays, Maven or Gradle are used in pretty much every Java code base.
So true rofl. Most of my time working with React is finding the right lib and then figuring out the best way to use it. Not to mention out dated docs and answers because they change so often.
Backend dev I just get going with a solid standard lib.
This 100%. It’s why I left the web world for DevOps, and while I unfortunately can’t run away from this problem completely, it’s very rare I have to pull in external libraries in my code
Hi Neetcode, I've been following your channel for some time now and really enjoy your content!
I'm a SWE-SRE and have experience both in infrastructure development and operations. This video is interesting and it is the exact same observations I made over the past few years.. Could it be that this is exactly the nature of programming? As time passes, more libraries are built and hence, a programmer's job evolves from "actually coding the low level stuff" to "stitching APIs and frameworks together" to build applications.. This is just the nature of the industry.. Things are built on top of each other.. Good rant nonetheless
Agreed. My favorite programming languages are all backend and my favorite's C++. I use Javascript, not because I like it (I actually personally despise it in many cases), but because of the popularity of websites.
love these clips
this is rather satisfying to hear
Debugging segfaults is not hard, build with debug symbols and use gdb/lldb. It gives you a trace with the exact line that failed and even has on the fly expressions(yes lldb can run expressions to the debugger live)
I am the best person when it comes to UI dev in my team of mostly backend engineers (i too prefer backend). And yes i agree frontend dev is soooo tedious.
That's fair criticism. It's a personal preferences for everyone. Good to hear a different perspective that makes complete sense
feel you bro
You read my mind.😊
For some reason, I started learning programming from algorithms. I was thinking back then that programmer’s work is something like finding “longest common subsequence”:)) I was soooo wrong)
I feel you bro, same here, coming out of university and finding web development is so easy is disappointing.
Easy? I know there isnt much problem solving but its still hard to get things to work properly.
@@josemou6172 but solving issues isnt that much of a challenge on web than it is on say, embedded systems where you would spend weeks fixing a bug
Thats what i felt too back when i tried to learn android for first time after coding with c
I think you should try building robots and program microcontrollers using C, it’s not only that you use C and manipulate registers, but also build robots and cool projects
i am in the exact situation and i also agree with your statement
"Most of the programming I do nowadays is in JS, and I really hate it"
👏👏👏👏👏👏
That's exactly how I feel. I totally understand you.
I will say more, JS should be prohibited outside the browser. NodeJS was the biggest mistake in computers history.
Exactly. This has been my experience too. I find web and mobile apps simple to program as opposed to programming a game engine in c++ where I have to implement most of the features using the native capabilities of the langage rather than libraries that do it all for me.
The latter is way more interesting and stimulating to me.
I had a similar realization when I got bit by the gamedev bug recently. Mind you I'm not going as far to create my own engine from scratch. But for the longest time I thought my problem solving skills when it came to coding were getting dull once I became a senior dev. I initially thought it was because I don't do as much ground level coding since a lot of my work has to do with architecting solutions for stories these days.
But after getting a starfox clone prototype up and running in unity without any tutorials and built out an entire frame work to create a star fox like experience in unity, I realised its not that my problem solving skills or coding skills were getting dull, they were just as sharp as ever it's that the domain of webdev has so many abstracted layers and pre packaged solutions that just snap together. There's no engineering aspect to speak of it's just repeat the same recycled solution for the next upcoming feature over and over.
Javascript: A commercial application that is a learning platform with a code editor.
C: Hello, world!
C feels just so raw and so powerfull and javascript is a dependency hell. Try to make what you are making as a native C application and tell me how much you love C.
As a backend dev, i can totally relate. I hate nginx, i hate lambda, i hate docker, i hate it all with passion. I recently rewatched halt and catch fire and god i wish i was a coder in the 1980th and be actually able to utilize all that DSA knowledge and math instead of having to re-learn it all again every few years, because knowledge tends to degrade if not used. Instead most of the time i have to just glue stuff together and it's not that difficult, it's just not what i wanted.
💯 Dumpster-diving for libraries in Java was the very reason why I switched from Academy level IT Engineering to a Multimedia Development Technical back in 2004. Then Flash died (no regrets there) and JS took over, and by now webdev became a way worse cesspit of dependencies than Java was to me back in the day. I've been looking into Zig lately, because I picked up C-like coding with Quake modding, and the language feels very comfy so far. Too bad my daily bread's still webdev.
I agree 100%
I did Leetcode and Codeforces for fun, but I worked as a full stack React/Django developer at my last internship. It was extremely boring, and difficult in a tedious sort of way. Getting state to work properly, routing, caching API request data... It was just so stressful; I'd take a LC Hard over all that any day 😅
Lmao I'm the opposite, I absolutely love routing, API caching, microservices, etc. This is why I'd much rather do a system design interview than leetcode coding interviews
@@ataulhaqakbar7365 actualy comparatively, system design and framework design takes more time to learn than LC. higher Learning curve for building a critical system than solving hundreds of LC in few months...
Abstraction abstraction
Then why don’t you pursue a research position? Specifically those that involve developing algorithms.
@@pepehimovic3135 I am opposite. I dislike C and C++. Give me C# and minimal APIs over them any day of the week.
Totally agree and what you mentioned is only a tip of an iceberg!
you are absoulolty right, you dont feels like a programmer, all your job now is to bring the libraries and make them work instede of coding the problem itself, making me feel like I am useless
I personally try to keep any dependencies to a bare minimum. As an example I am not using lodash and prefer to write everything by myself. I was the lead in 3 projects and we did the same. No, we couldn't avoid some libraries because that would hamper our productivity speed but we tried to keep it to the bare minimum.
Do agree about the fact about it being not as much fun but its important.
The thing I hate the most when working with nodeja are libraries that I really need to use but their documentation is almost non-existent and their code is spaghetti and hard to understand. I just instantly drop anything that has bad documentation
My favorite programming is GLSL because im an artist. Its hard to debug but its very "pure". It uses algorithm, function, maths (and im really bad at it, i dont have highschool level). Tbh, glsl is the reason , how i know a function work after all these years. Because i need to understand them to draw on the canvas. However i do some web dev stuff because you can build pretty cools things with. Sometime its just gluing stuff together and its fast and easy, sometime its harder, and you're not coding anymore, you are doing what i called "maintenance".
This is exactly why I'm moving away from webdev to ml. It feels like I'm finally doing something myself again. Even if its implementing someone elses paper. I wrote the damn code myself, and I feel happy about it.
My team supports about 20 micro frontends and micro services and every time there a vournerability gets discovered, we have to update everything (as it should be). We could have just one employee hired that does just that: updating dependencies. But then upgrading works flawlessly in one package and in another it just does not and we need to upgrade dependency after dependency. Because who even maintains old versions of packages and fixes bugs there? Ultemately that leads to complete rewrites of our services.
Wow I figure out it also that sometimes solving problem mean find correct library and how to operate on it
find somewhere where you can work on embedded systems, like a car company. I'm working for jaguar land rover and i absolutely love it.
Yes, I would totally agree with that. It is more fun to write code from scratch. You feel like you are accomplishing something, rather than getting stuff for granted. Although using dependencies is more efficient in most of modern development cases.
Agreed
I think for me I rather have the opposite. I like to get things done and don't want to reinvent the wheel. It can be incredibly frustating in languages with few libraries like Nim or Rust to get anything done, and there is no manual you can even look up and you can't find the one specific way the thing works.
finding is just the start.. managing and balancing deps is a hellscape.
You can just build your own in JS. By the way, have you ever tried managing libraries and build tools in C or C++?
Exactly. C and c++ does also library dependency issues on some projects.
@@TheBrainDunne c++ yes but c is mostly about "rewriting better then importing"
kinda like go and how they refuse to use frameworks and adding feature but somehow that work and make it easier.
there is value in minimalism with programming in some domains like system programming but also value in extensibility and large eco system, like c++ python which kinda have lib for almost anything u can think of.
when come to web dev domains honestly i think they went with the wrong option for the wrong reasons, u should never choose the second option for faster production and prototyping solution.
I agree, it's why I like retro programming
yea, for me ifs fun to make your own dependencies, i like it when I know how my dependencies behave because I made it myself, its much more fun and fulfilling.
Totally agree
C & C++ actually have a similar problem with the building process - make, cmake, ninja, gcc, clang, msvc
and don't even get me started on cross compiling
But yeah, JS is worse.
Gcc clang and msvc are compiler and linkers: c make is a set of build instructions. Cross compiler is just building a tool chain - that is one time cost. So not sure where is the difficulty
the thing is though in C or C++ there is a chance you can ignore all of these garbage build tools, just call the compiler and you're done. the only time when this doesn't work (which might unfortunately be quite a lot of times) is when someone builds a garbage library that is so overcomplicated you can't even figure out which source files to feed to the compiler to make it work
@@knufyeinundzwanzig2004 Agreed.
@@knufyeinundzwanzig2004android ndk:
So glad that in Python data science we have Anaconda to manage the dependencies of a huge set of open-source libraries.
Yeah It's awesome to find all the little cool libraries and just sew them together as some kind of frankenstein's monster until the day the first library gets deprecated... and then it just keeps happening. Be highly sceptical with libraries in a professional setting is my advice.
sometimes getting the job done is the fun part specially when you have deadlines
sometimes its the salary
@@amynguy being paid is always the fun part 😂😂
@@eliasgill2453 fun is getting paid but deadlines are deadlines.
We needed them if we wanna keep our job.
You have to learn to scam your company. I just network with the other engineers to fool our managers. Never be loyal to your company no matter what. Only be loyal to the people you are working with. We are in it together
tell that to golang and htmx that showed how silly that argument is.
You can still run into this in C, with dynamic libraries and ABI breakage. Also a lot of painpoints in C is that the syntax is horrible and the compiler doesn't really help you with the memory management problems, you know, the ones that give you SIGSEGV. Add to this that C didn't really have a good story for depedency management except for using the ones that come with the distro, and then distrubuting this to users when they may have different sets of libraries is.. ass. So yeah, other than those issues, use C!
Alternative Title:
"Web dev rants about dependency hell and talks about the good old days of using C in his younger age. "😅😂