I've never believed that Negan himself ordered that or did it. He probably ordered killing one person to make a point, that sure sounds like him, but killing a kid??? No. The Hilltop was dealing with the outpost led by Simon and all of the Saviors were "Negan." Killing a kid to make a point??? That sounds a lot more like something that Simon would do. You know, the man who ordered the execution of every male in Oceanside over the age of 10.
@@WarGrowlmon18 how come negan is off the hook something HIS right-hand man did. Not to to mention HE was the one who put Simon in power and failed to control him. We see this in action when Simon kills the scavengers, clearly disregarding orders from negan and when Rick tells him about the scavengers he's shocked. Even if he ruled ruled with an iron clad hand, his own people came to bite him back in the ass. He had power and fear, not loyalty, alliances and friends.
@@Lalagragrabitch Negan took responsibility for not taking care of Simon the first time he did something like that. I think Simon followed his orders and then pulled something when he was sure that he could get away with it. He tried it at Hilltop too after Negan "died" fighting Rick, but he severely underestimated his opponents. Mostly what he pulled was smaller scale enough to fly under Negan's radar. Most of the people who helped him died in the war or the failed coup. I think it's telling that there were only 8 people left for Oceanside to go after: no way Simon pulled that off with just 8 people.
I can definitely imagine Negan getting mad at this, and not having ordered it. That said, he does like to sit in a bubble of plausible deniability, like with all of his wives despite his “no rape” rule. If he himself isn’t the one doing it, I could imagine a degree of cognitive dissonance. I mean he was gonna kill Carl at the end of Season 7
Negan apologists often say he had a code of honor because he never kills children but somehow conveniently forget he was ready to kill Carl at the end of season 7 when it seemed Alexandria had lost the war. True he spared Carl after his assassination attempt killing 2 of his men but I think that was more due to him respecting Carl's strength than it was any moral objection to killing him. As you stated Negan viewed people as a resource and was choseing to make an investment in carl recognizing his potential to be a valuable asset later down the road.
While I do believe he wasn't going to kill Carl and was more likely just psyching Rick out similar to how he did at the line-up, he has his fair share of hypocrisy; like burning that one doctor alive even though he would say "people are a resource"
ik I'm late but the line after they kill all the terminus ppl in the church. Like the silence and the look and everybody's face, the people who killed and the people who watched. "It could have been us" one of my favorite episodes I wish I could watch it for the first time
I can empathize with everything rick has done. Mistakes or not, he is someone whose heart is in the right place, and he will never hurt anyone unless they threaten him or his family. The best leader and survivor
Rick was justified in all of his actions here! He had no other choice, the Saviors would’ve found Rick and his people eventually anyways, Rick and his people only had one option, kill or be killed.
@@pedrolaughThey would have eventually crossed paths again but yeah lol, ricks group only did this in exchange for food from hilltop. This was not justified 🤣🤣🤣
I think it was JP Gettey who had a plan to be rich, step 1 wake early step 2 work hard and step 3 strike oil. Do what you do but if you dont get lucky it means you just get 1 more day where good or bad happen
The way i see it is the saviors would eventually find them and take control of them anyway. It was gonna be either Ricks group or the saviours to do it first
Thank you! Finally, a sane moral assessment of this! I've seen so many people defending Negan unironically. I agree with your assessment though about Rick. It's like people don't watch the scenes beofre the attack. Rick outright said, that the Saviors would've found Alexandria eventually, and that they had to strike first, not just for Hilltop, but for themselves. To protect Alexandria.
If killing makes you wrong by default in the TWD universe than everyone is wrong in which case we’d have to judge their morals based on something else so that we can have an actual discussion on who might be right and wrong
@@fellowpassenger_54-67 I agree, but we're not going to judge the Walking Dead cast on any other morality scale because they themselves judge themselves on our morals today. Killing, is typically seen as wrong. Unless you're defending yourself, or someone else. Lying to your own, whether that be your own group or family, is seen as wrong. Rape, is seen as wrong. I could keep going. The point is, aside from a few differences, the characters of the Walking Dead judge morality using a twenty first century sense of justice and right and wrong. Judging their goodness by any other metric is just stupid, in my opinion.
Negan is a homicidal psychopath, not only was Rick justified here, but he was wrong in allowing Negan to live later. There is no end in reality where Negan can be redeemed, not without years of intensive therapy and intervention that isn't available here.
The Governor is a crazed version of Rick loosing a child. Negan is a crazed version of Rick loosing his wife. Shane is a version of Rick who never had a family. Rick only had ethics because of his family. Him and Shane were friends because they do think alike. When Rick lost Lori he lost a part of his ethics. Negan is essentially a reminder to Rick that he shouldn’t be consumed by Lori’s death the same way Negan is consumed by Lucille’s death.
Well we know Negan's not a psychopath. Otherwise he'd have no empathy wotsoever. That would bel like us calling Rick that, especially when he does full rocktatorship. Simon however is a psychopath and we see this demonstrated on Jadis group Negan is redeemed and has saved ricks group countless times over the seasons He's not Negan anymore, that's for sure
Negan was cruel and tyrannical, but he objectively wasn't a psychopath. Simon, on the other hand, probably was. At the very least he was a sociopath (since we don't know if Simon was born that way or created through circumstance). Rick also wasn't wrong to spare Negan. I don't think that was a situation with a black and white, right or wrong answer. The brilliant Thomas Sowell once said that there is no such thing as solutions, only trade-offs. A case could be made for both decisions, but the decision was a calculates risk either way, and Rick was trying to put am end to things in a manner that provided the offered the best way forward for as many people as possible witile minimizimg the likelihood of future conflict. In the grand scheme of things, whether we're talking about the show or the comic, his gamble sparing Negan's life paid off in spades multiple times over.
thank you!! the amount of times ive heard people say that ricks group was just as bad as the saviours or worse...everything our group did was in retaliation and rick even decided to let the remaining saviours be a part of his new world after they won the war.
@@garyreid2472 negan was gonna kill one of their group regardless, thats what he does with every group he comes across. and theres no world where daryl doesnt react, which means glenn dies too. negan only lets the strongest survivers join his ranks, and our group would never sit by and watch their people get enslaved.
The Outpost wasn't "retaliation". The Saviors that attacked Sasha, Abe and Daryl was just a random Confrontation in the middle of the road. And they already killed those people too... we didn't lose a single person at that point. "Everything our group did was in retaliation" is the most CAP statement of all... what about Rick & Morgan killing those Saviors that saved them in 8x14?? Was that justified? Because Negan would never do that.
@@CorsonDrax the group that attacked sasha abraham and daryl were working under negans orders. they killed one person of every group they came across before forcing the rest into slavery. that was their whole thing. and they would've tried it again next chance they got. as for rick and morgan, those saviours only 'saved' them after attacking them in the first place, wdym negan would never do that...
thank you for clearing the air on this that whole season ricks saying was "we have to come for them before they come for us its that simple" and yet people are like "uuhhhhh they killed people who didn't even attack them" when Daryl and Abraham both had to kill some that were harassing them on the road back to Alexandria
Finally, someone sets the records straight. I hated seeing fans. Try to defend the Saviors for all those years. Like bro, they literally put people on their knees and killed their loved ones in front of them and laugh about it. And Took pictures and turned those same people into their slaves. Like what did you expect Risk's group to do? 😂😂
It actually makes me mad that people defend the saviors when even the saviors know how effed up they were after the war. It's like defending the terminus people because "they did what they had to, to survive". Screw everyone else. Like wtf??
@alexxandra- Honestly, it's people that think they're smarter than they actually are, and they just come off really stupid like. "Actually the Saviors, aren't that bad, Rick. And his group gave them no choice, but to kill glenn and abraham. ☝️🤓"
the problem with negan is he wants to control everything. His group do not make attempts to peaceable. They are heavy handed, aggressive, unstable and they CHOSE to do that. They made conscious decisions, but they were arrogant. If it wasnt Rick making the first attack, it would be the people who are subjugated to abusive and cruel behavior . but negans group beats that out of them
@@joshuasworldtour484I mostly agree, though it’s clear that sanctuary isn’t self sustaining without the enslavement of other communities as seen in S9. That is largely on the Saviors for not being smart in choosing a home base. Of course the Saviors could still establish trade without outright enslaving anyone as well. They had plenty of weaponry, scavenged goods, and manpower. I could see them functionally working as Mercs for other communities, actually providing protection instead of being glorified mobsters.
It all comes down to where you were when the apocalypse happened. Remember Gamma from the whisperers said they met Alpha first. I would say that the people that met Rick’s group first were lucky. Anyone could have ended up in Woodbury, the Sanctuary, etc. POV is everything imo. However, I do think Rick’s actions were justified.
Exactly. Just like in the case of Morales (from season 1) who Rick met again during the savior war. He saw Rick as the bad guy even though he probably knew he was wrong. He wanted to protect his own community because they were the ones who saved him when he got into a mess with his family. The Reapers as well are another good example. They were members of the same military squad before the world went to shit.
I always believed Rick screwed up here. And even the way it was done, we were supposed to notice his ego getting too big. It’s true that regardless, eventually they’d have to confront the Saviors. But I feel like a more level headed Rick would have began scouting them out, specifically seeing what their numbers were really like, and searching for Negan since he kept hearing that name. This same Rick would have tried to cut the head off the snake, literally attempting to assassinate Negan before the confrontation. This would still lead to at best a giant battle, and at worse a war, but killing their leader would have tilted the scales so much that it could have given Ricks’s group a real chance of winning. This is a great example of why I love the character of Rick in the show, he made very realistic, human mistakes often. It just added to him becoming a strong leader, it’s the only way it could go under such circumstances.
if negan was assassinated all the way back in season six that leaves the crown prince of nut bags - simon - in charge, i think alexandria would have been slaughtered in that scenario at most taking one or two compounds down with them, through a domino effect of noone keeping him on leash hilltop and the kingdom would likely have been messed up too
Unfortunately this would leave Simon in charge, who would go full scorched earth immediately. The saviors would likely begin to break from within as without Negan’s cult of personality you’d have more turncoats, but it wouldn’t happen overnight.
See there's a lot of things to consider regarding the massacre from both sides. First of all, there's the killing of a kid mentioned by Hilltop. Here's the thing: I don't think that Negan was responsible for that, not directly at least, he's too against harming children. He probably ordered killing one person to make a point, that sure sounds like him, but killing a kid??? No. The Hilltop was dealing with the outpost led by Simon and all of the Saviors were "Negan." Killing a kid to make a point??? That sounds a lot more like something that Simon would do. You know, the man who ordered the execution of every male in Oceanside over the age of 10. Second of all, as Negan himself told Maggie in 11x07, these were still men with friends and family who would want justice and answers. In Negan's place, Rick's group would and HAS retaliated for something like this, just minus the sadistic part of it. Abraham was the punishment for this, Glenn was because Daryl tried to attack Negan. And for all of his flaws and enforced servitude, Negan kept an army consisting of a lot of psychopaths in line. I remember watching Season 8 and knowing that they were screwed if Simon wasn't dealt with before Negan was. Negan was keeping that guy in check. And as we know now, Simon was responsible for the Saviors more evil actions, not Negan. It was Simon who massacred Oceanside's males, not Negan, Negan was disgusted with that. He also went against Negan's orders and massacred Jadis' people. If Simon had been in charge throughout the war then EVERYBODY would've been dead. Negan had restraint, Simon didn't.
But its then negans fault for allowing simon to continue existing for as long as he did. He believes the people under him are his subordinates that'd do and tell him anything. But as he protrails himself to be this big bad tough guy once simon does something that everyone would expect negan they dont tell negan because it got results and negans happy with results.
@@nani4249 And Negan took accountability for that. After Simon massacred Jadis' people, Negan admitted that it was his fault, not because Negan ordered it, but because he didn't stop Simon when he should've the first time that Simon did something like that. Negan didn't even know that Simon had killed Jadis' people until Rick told him while they were fighting, Rick thought that he knew already and had ordered it. Most of the people who were Simon's loyal followers were killed either in the war or in Simon's failed coup. There were only like 8 Saviors who participated in the Oceanside Massacre and survived the war and Oceanside's revenge upon them actually led to Jadis' departure. 6 were unnamed and just mentioned to have disappeared and been killed. Another one was Justin who was a minor antagonist in the 9th season. The actor played the Scorpion King in most of those movies. The last one, the Savior who killed Cyndie's little brother, was Arat. She was a more prominent Savior in the show, the one who killed Olivia after Rosita tried to shoot Negan.
Dawg, Negans whole thing is that he enslaves communities to make them give up half their stuff, "People are a resource" is his saying, whether or not it was Simon who did that to hilltop doesn't matter because Negan is still very clearly a tyrant himself, yet you are defending him
Dawg, Negans whole thing is that he enslaves communities to make them give up half their stuff, "People are a resource" is his saying, whether or not it was Simon who did that hilltop doesn't matter because Negan is still very clearly a tyrant himself
100% correct. Negan had always maintained that he kills to keep people in line or some form of torture,. depending on the crime, as we've seen with Dwight and others Negan doesn't kill kids. So when Gregory shares that story with Rick, that wasn't Negan himself Negan states to rick, in their final battle why he didn't kill him in last day on earth. He didn't want to kill a father Infront of their child so why on earth would Negan kill a child in front of their father. We are shown that Simon is the one that deals with the hilltop and another lieutenant at the kingdom. Not Negan
Off topic. Just imagine of Negan tried this on the Governor when the Governor had that M60 patton tank and that tanker dude. Governor would of attacked first and roll over every Saviors regardless if the Saviors were combatant or not with that M60 tank. If you look at the Savior's armory they might have a lot of guns, people and resources but they don't have any heavy firepower like RPG or the big scary stuff to knock out that tank.
its not as hard as youd think to pull of a mobility kill at the least, or disable the crew. the finnish pulled off a lot of tank kills with nothing more than molotov cocktails
@@FSM1138 Wrong on the cocktails. Cocktails might of worked on early tanks from the 1920s but from the late 1930s to current tanks cocktails won't do anything. Also how will you disable "the crew" when the crew are inside the tank? I know you're going to say "use drones" but the Savior doesn't have any drones. Also how will you "pull a mobility kill on a tank" when you don't even have land mines, hand grenades or small AT4 to disable the tracks? Lol. Just like OP of the channel said. The Savior don't have Daryl the tank slayer. Lol
at this point i think people who blame rick just want to look cool not siding with the protagonist. saviors in the satelite station had picture of bashed heads on their walls. none of them were innocent and they would have attacked Alexandria killing innocent people. negan pre his redemption ark was a hypocrite. he had so much power and influence and instead of managing his minions he was spending time with women he coerced into becoming his wives. he was a horrible irresponsible leader at best. he is responsible for rick killing his crew members since he let his minions go around and cause trauma among other survivor groups. the only thing rick did wrong was underestimating the force he was dealing with.
I've always wondered what the fallout would be if Negan only killed Rick. He kills the head if the snake to keep the rest kf the surviors in line and Carl takes the lead. I wonder how that would go over.
War would start sooner probably. He’d need to kill more of the survivors to keep them in line, possibly prop up Spencer as the leader of Alexandria after. With a few of their most capable survivors dead he’d need to lower the resource tributes though. Go from 50% to 25% until Alexandria finds its footing again. In the long run I think this would have made more sense than obsessively trying to break Rick.
In my eyes The Saviors were initiating violence against Hill top and others and therefore Rick and his group were justified in essentially acting as mercenaries and attacking the saviors to liberate Hilltop and protect his own community.
I tell EVERY negan fanboy that all the time. The saviors ATTACKED FIRST!! It was already shown that they won’t compromise in anyway. They’ll take all that is yours & take your life or the life of someone you love away. They just love negan too much to see that.
@@CorsonDrax The saviors’ purpose is to go out and search for groups and or communities to bully into giving everything they own to them & doing everything for them as well. Sooner or later they would’ve crossed paths with Rick’s group like they did on the road before being blown up. They’ve already attacked some of my guys before I won’t wait for them to make a move on us again. That’s just logically speaking too. Rick just failed to do any reconnaissance to see what he was up against.
1 They were desperate 2 They weare accustomed to dealing with bully groups and recognized this in The Saviors 3 The Saviors stood between them not dying of starvation They didn't have a choice. But then you'd have to ask if it was right that The Govenor and the two brothers should have attacked the group they find in the woods. They were also desperate. Ignoring that they were killed by another group shortly after as they couldn't have predicted that.
I like how blunt and aggressive you are. Consider me a new sub! Also yeah, I'd say Rick was right, but just went about it in a somewhat sloppy way. If he planned it more properly, I'm sure they would've been more strategic about it, rather than the Unga Bunga way they did. They were just feeling themselves too much and got humbled real quick!
I've always said, Negan's worst enemy is himself. He set up a system that works but it requires maturity and restraint. Placing lots of undue trust in people like Simon to not just abuse the easily abused system. I full well believe Negan had no idea how evil his men were nor how many war crimes they casually committed day in and day out. He thought his violence was limited, controlled and well-placed but the reality was, that he was no different to any other Raider. Remember, no one opposed the idea of killing the Saviours, they only doubted whether or not they could do it or not. Negan's system failed so badly, that 500+ people all more or less agreed he had to die. That's *Terrible*. Luckily Negan realised this and while he still thinks a man like him is needed, his entire strategy and ideology has changed.
The problem is that a lot of people under Negan used him like a shield of sorts. I always said I hated the people who served under Negan more than the man himself simply because I don't like people who act tough because they know the biggest bully on the playground will involve themselves if someone pushes back
You also have to listen to what Negan had said himself. When he took over the sanctuary it was mindless chaos. I can't type out exactly what was going on there before he turned it around cos of UA-cam censorship but you get the idea Negan also went through his one ordeal when attempting to save his wife, Lucille and was held hostage and threatened to do something before he could get what he needed which turned out to be too late He then adopted the no bs approach, kill or be killed
@@ZeonEonsthe problem is I don’t think Negan even committed to the no bs approach. He was paradoxically incredibly cruel but merciful at the same time. These two things just aren’t compatible with how he was running his empire.
He was justified but it has always bothered me on a strategic level, Rick attacks a unknown enemy, with unknown men, with unknown firepower. He knew they are mobile, and he knew the saviours where shaking down multiple groups. Rick needed scouts out to figure out their routes, their security, their bases. His attack on the saviours is why I think Rick is a bad leader
yes and they were more powerful so killing them while they can't fight back was the smart thing to do, the only thing they should of done different is make sure the didn't miss anything out, they could of found maps showing different locations and lists of people and stuff like that
@@itscrossfadedI agree, Ricks biggest mistake was not making sure he knew EXACTLY who he was dealing with. I think it was Daryl in one episode who said those guys, they aren't shit. And if you didn't read the comics you may believe that to be true. But only a fool approaches a dolphin without first making sure it's not actually a shark.
I think it's important to discuss the distinction between necessary and/or best versus morally justified. The irrational assumption is that all the men at the satellite station were bad men; or to go a step further that being a savior automatically makes someone bad. We saw over the course of the show that some saviors were worse than others, and that some were just trying to survive but fell in with the wrong crowd. Granted, everyone must take responsibility for their own actions. Choosing to uphold and enforce Negan's doctrine was an individual choice each savior made. But for many, the alternative was harsh punishment, sometimes even being forced to watch your loved ones suffer because of your own insubordination. We cannot make an absolute judgement that everyone at the satellite station was bad. Negan himself says this to Maggie nearing the end of the show, "they had friends, girlfriends, families. Where do you think Aaron got Gracie?" Was attacking the satellite station morally just? No. Not at all. But given the limited information and context our group had, it was arguably the best decision for them at the time.
5:00 the thing is that they didn’t witness it, although they were right they chose a side based on he said she said from a group they just met and knew nothing about. What if that group was just using them to take out a group and expand? Yes they took out a bad group but blindly trusting someone like Gregory who would do anything to save himself is just foolish on their part.
But also what do you think would Gregory have done if rick didnt try to take care of the saviors? He wouldve ratted alexandria out and that is very clear, so now you can choose between helping a group where everyone says the saviors are evil and just not believing it bc they're new and by that taking the risk of a dangerous group attacking alexandria
@@stylishdonkey the point is blindly trusting a group you know nothing about by wiping out another group is never a good choice. The right choice would’ve been to encounter the group themselves and come up with a plan once they got intel. If they did that they would’ve known that the saviors wasn’t just that small group at the satellite tower.
Rick was definitely in the wrong to not do any background checks or scouting, but it’s understandable bc of everything Rick went through, Rick had to take out an evil group so many times, he obviously would think this is the same
Like the video mentions Rick and co already ran into the saviors before and their behavior lined up with what Gregory told them, but I’ll agree I think this was partly opportunistic on Ricks part. I got the vibe he cared less about how evil the Saviors really were and more so just wanted to remove a potential threat to establish a trade relationship with Hilltop which Alexandria needed.
I honestly thought it was one of the best moments in the show, I honestly wish it went on a little longer, like they got to fight more saviors in more battles until they realized they were hopelessly outnumbered and had to surrender, rather than the weird thing of them leaving the community to find a doctor to deliver a baby when they likely would have be able to do it themselves and then getting shut down at their height Seeing the group go on the offensive was cool. Also finding all that equipment was neat
Negan killing a 16 year old sounds kind of out of character. We know he holds a secret soft spot in a way for children. He seemed to have threatened Carl multiple times, but I always felt that was a way to manipulate Rick rather than him seriously contemplating hurting Carl. I feel if he was pushed in an extreme case, he would hurt or kill Carl, but in most circstances, they were just threats. I guess it depends if you feel 16 years old in that society was a child though. Many times throughout history, 16 years old was considered a young man and even sometimes today. Parents call their 16 year old kids children, yet at the same time, people want people 12, 13 14 or younger thrown away for life or executed for doing horrendous crimes.
The heroes though they were cutting the head off the snake. They knew the saviors were dirty. They just didn't know how well armed, and well manned they were.
Loving your Walking Dead content man! New subscriber here. I listen to your videos on my commute to work as I’ve been trying to find a good podcast / person who talks about interesting TWD topics. Excellent work man!! I absolutely agree with your analysis on whether or not Rick’s decision to preemptively attack the Saviors at the satellite outpost was justified. If anything I think Rick should have been more strategic and tactical with their plans though. He should have gathered more intelligence on his enemy and then carefully planned a coordinated attack. Had he done that, they could have potentially chipped away the at the saviors bit by bit while keeping Alexandria free and undetected.
I'm not going to argue with the main point of the video. Just want to say some of those "moral compass calibrations" were just wrong and I'm not a bad person for saying they are.
You forgot the part where every time they meet someone new they say they’re gunna have to kill someone on top of taking half of their shit. Yeah… pretty sure they were justified in attacking first.
The saviors were not good people at all. Even if Rick and company hadn’t slaughtered those saviors in their sleep, the saviors would have found Rick and co sooner or later. Conflict was inevitable
I rewatched TWD recently and people who defend the saviours either forgot everything in season 6,7 and 8 or don't understand shit about this and the main fault for this is this Negan's redemption ark that makes absolutely no sense and made people forget about who really was, in the coomics Negan's redemption makes sense but in this show it's BS after BS.
The whole point of the storyline in Season 6-7-8 is that we're just as bad as the Saviors. Highlighted in episodes like 6x12, 6x13, 8x14, excedra. Why would our group be 100% unjustifiably in the right? That's just a boring storyline then. The Saviors would be no different than any storyline we've had previously. The entire point of them is that there's not a clear good guy / bad guy.
@@CorsonDrax Forget the second half of season 7 and the whole season 8 ,everything in these seasons are trash that's exactly what I said season 7 and 8 were the start of Negan's redemption ark and most of it made no sense, watch the whole season 6 again and tell me ,how the hell are they the same? The Saviours enslaved other groups if they didn't give them what they demanded they would kill them Negan had fun smashing people's heads he had a whiteboard with photos of their brains smashed to the ground, not to mention the iron and other torture stuff, have you actually watched this video you're commenting on? Rick's group is nothing like the savious. It's not hard to understand the difference.
Long story short: People love the villain too much, and fall for charms and personality too much. The deeds, actions make the individuals, and the ugly results speak for themselves.
I agree with your take on this , especially Rick’s leadership of the mission .. They should’ve listen to Morgan when he spoke about trying to have a sit down first using it as covert fact finding mission . At least try to get more information of who/what/where , and especially how many your dealing with.. Rick’s leadership on this was half cocked , and dangerous, and we all saw the outcome . When you don’t plan things out better you get bad results .
Negan was trying to establish order. That takes force. He was trying to get things together so that even the "lower class" ( who opposed him) had what they needed to survive. He didn't just kill to kill. He was willing to take people in for a chance to prove their worth. Even if it was sociopathic. He didn't kill until he deemed it necessary for his vision to continue. Rick always went in guns blazing...
Your second example of the preemptive strike, is not morally correct. It puts you as the leader sending others to their death against what you deem to wrong, first example yes trying to save others from a lunatic is heroic because you're putting yourself on the line for others.
If you have to explain this, it states that people are idiots. I can't fathom how people don't get that. If only our survivors had done enough reconnaissance ahead of time, then it would have worked out better, as they would have coordinated an attack larger than just the one outpost.
TWD and Dead City both tried to rewrite this and make it seem like it was Simon and the Croat who attacked Hilltop and Oceanside. Making Negan out to be a better guy.
If you rewatch the scenes where those events are originally talked about, it was never actually said that Negan did it, just the Saviors who are ALL "Negan" remember??? I specifically rewatched the moment where Beatrice told Tara about the massacre: she only said that it was the Saviors, Negan was never mentioned by name as the culprit. Negan probably ordered the events at the Hilltop, but ordering the execution of a kid??? No, that doesn't sound like him. That DOES sound like Simon though. Negan probably ordered his usual "warning" and Simon chose a kid. Negan said multiple times in Season 8 that Oceanside was actually Simon: he told Jadis that he should've stopped Simon when he did that instead of giving him another chance and he called Simon a sick demented ghoul for the Oceanside massacre while confronting him after getting back. When Oceanside exacted revenge upon the Saviors for that shortly before Rick's departure, they specified that it was Simon who massacred their people. The guy massacred the Scavengers for angering him and he wanted to kill everyone in the communities from the start. Negan was always the one with restraint and sanity while Simon was a loose cannon who just wanted to kill everyone.
Putting morals aside, in terms of a strategic advantage, attacking first logically makes more sense. Do you wait for this inevitable threat to come to you or do you go and remove the threat? That being said, they didnt have enough intel which led to there downfall. So yes they shouldve attacked but not at that time and only after knowing there enemy.
I like Negan as a character, and at the same time I do not idolize him. But the mentally of some in the t0xic “Saviors” fandom are hypocritical and hilarious 😂 The “justifications” some of them have over any and all of the actions of Negan/the Saviors is just baffling and really goes to show the kind of people they likely are in real-life lol
Being told what Saviors have done and what happend. I think Rick would've stalled longer till they knew more what they were up against. What i mean what was told to Tara by Oceanside community. They told Tara it was only a 1 of several outposts they took. Rick had valid point if they talked first, that gives up their advantage of coming unseen. But i think they would've waited if they knew more what they were up against. They thought previous conflicts were a breeze, even against The Governor which we know wasnt.
I do think Rick was right people say that Rick started it but if you remember the saviors were going to kill Sasha Abraham and Daryl which he also just said while I’m watching this so no Rick was not wrong for doing this the because yes eventually the saviors would have found them so it’d probably be better to get the same people who tried to kill 3 of our group before they find us and do something again
To the people who are complaining and say that Rick and company killing saviors in their sleep is wrong; I have one question. If you discovered a threat to your family and friends, would you not act? There are no rules in warfare. I don't care if you're on the shitter, if I have an opening I'm taking it. Nothing is fair and in the apocalypse you have to take every advantage that is given to you.
Thank you somebody had to spell it out bluntly..FFS the counterargument of Rick being in the wrong is truly a willful attempt to bend reality just to be okay with Negan's charisma... as you said.
Rick's actions were understandable, he only heard bad things about the saviours knowing they threatened Daryl, Abraham and Sasha and then finding out the killed a 16 year old boy. Rick knew it was inevitable that he would encounter the saviours and Rick doesn't enjoy killing people like Negan that sets them apart.
Everyone always gets Ricks pov but no one ever looks at Negan Imagine hearing that some prick named Rick killed hundreds of your people for no reason in their sleep and stole a baby. Keep in mind all of what Rick heard that they did to the hilltop was Simon’s fault
Going slightly off topic, Rick and Co should have researched the Saviours first before attacking. They should have spied and searched for more outposts.
I never understood why Jesus or anyone from the Hilltop didn't at least let Rick know how outnumbered he was. That if he attacked one outpost, it was just like taking out a small portion of their men. It seemed like as Far and Rick knew, the saviors weren't as organized as they actually were and could be taken out preemptively
Ok it wasn’t preemptive as the saviors already attacked. How do you people keep forgetting that the saviors tried to kill abe,sasha, and daryl first. Also, if you hear that this person is going around killing people, and his group has already tried to kill your people, why wouldn’t you attack back?
He had no right to attack someone that didn't attack him also how does he know for certain that Jesus was telling the truth I would have heard about what is going on locate where all there outposts are and then moved the alexandrian residents 1000 miles away from the furthest outpost to not deal with the saviors
Yeah but the girl that Croat was torturing was high school aged. So why did Simon have such a problem with it if they've killed high school aged teens before
@@cjbladesworth8049 so Simon only said there was a line because he wanted to be butt buddies with Negan? And this is the guy that ended up trying to betray him right?
How many people did negan save though? How many predators did he keep in check. How many of his people's deaths did he ignore especially with Carl. Rick would've been dead if Carl wasn't in that line up. These are not actions of a psychopath. Negan managed to play it so well he had the real ones bowing to him. You are using morals and reasoning that wouldn't survive in this type of world. Negan the only reason Rick and the group weren't slaughtered.
Negan saved no one but the saviours themselves (and that’s arguable), he killed way more people than he saved, he also killed mostly innocent people to provide for his men, something Rick would never do, negan was awful at keeping his men and predators in check, look at the dude he killed when he almost raped Sasha, that rapist could thrive in the system negan set up, negan just got lucky he found him before he raped Sasha
A part of this episode and the walking dead as a whole that i absolutely love is the complex theme of morals and the injustices the befall those who do the right thing for example when glenn kills that sleeping guy so that heath doesn't have to it shows that these characters may take on moral hardships to conclusively do the right thing in the end glenn saves heath the guilt by taking it for himself he muders a sleeping man to do the right thing in regards to heath yet the action is not made more easy or even more justified and as a result we see glenn suffer with his conscience and inevitably be left with a bad taste in his mouth from the interaction This show really doesn't reward goodness in kind its masterful writing and builds on the apocalypse theme very well
I keep seeing people bring up the fact that Rick and friends killed people in their sleep. Said sleeping people were doing so peacefully with pictures of their victims (victims they murdered purely to extort those that remained)
Rick and his group should of have just pledged allegiance/fealty to Negan, and then when a glaring opportune presents it’s self take down the saviors, attacking the outpost was never a good idea.
Hilltop was attacked by the saviors because they had a weak pathetic leader like Gregory. How they could have a 360 degree view and not have lookouts and snipers guarding the community is just bad planning.
There's a difference between being right and not being wrong, in a world that went back a few years in ethics and civilized display negan was just following the patterns of the apocalypse. The strong reign and the weak are prey, if one is lucky they're not givin a role in society that leads to their death. Honestly no matter how you look at it rick had no chance of winning if it wasn't for Rosaline setting Eugene up to be negan's bullet maker. Which gave rick all he needed as a chamce to win the war. Had that not been the case all of rick's sacrifices would've been for nothing. Is this me defending negan per say, no. However if rick cared enough not to affiliate himself with negan's backsliding moral code rick should've been more mindful about his tactics and chose his battles more wisely even if it meant waiting longer to properly arrange a efficient execution.
Rick was right, People have a fascination for Negan, because the wickedness makes them shudder, they try to excuse him, to defend him, "Negan would never kill a child", while he was going to kill Carl.
One should disregard irrelevant things like charm and a sense of humour and pay attention only to the deeds, the acts one commits. No permissible court of law would ever allow a man like Negan to ever walk free again. He would rot in prison for the rest of his life, presuming he is not executed. He committed way too many crimes, and did them persistently without any provocation. This is talking from a purely legal standpoint. Nothing short of a life or a death sentence would be awaiting him.
This new series is just a money grab. Him and his girl arguing all episodes “we are going to Alexandria” “no we are staying” Next Episode “no we are leaving” “no we are staying” no we are leaving” “no now you leave I’ll stay” Next Episode “no so we will both stay” And repeat
This has to be the most patronising video I've seen in a long time. It's just you saying "they're right you're stupid why are you stupid it's simple they're in the right" over and over with generic fear pandering arguments you would hear for things like the Iraq war of the early 2000s.
That was just karma what happened to the Saviors. They went around fucking with other groups. So it was only a matter of time before someone fucked with them. Rick's group didn't go around threatening other groups to give them half their shit or die
people defending the saviors forget about how sadistic they were. alot of them enjoyed killing and being brutal and if it wasn't rick group that took them down it would've been someone else inside the ranks or outside.
Glenn was right. He wanted to find out more about the saviors. He knew something bad was coming
Rory, he was 16 years old. They beat him to death.
But Negan says he doesn't kill kids.
I've never believed that Negan himself ordered that or did it. He probably ordered killing one person to make a point, that sure sounds like him, but killing a kid??? No. The Hilltop was dealing with the outpost led by Simon and all of the Saviors were "Negan." Killing a kid to make a point??? That sounds a lot more like something that Simon would do. You know, the man who ordered the execution of every male in Oceanside over the age of 10.
@@WarGrowlmon18 how come negan is off the hook something HIS right-hand man did. Not to to mention HE was the one who put Simon in power and failed to control him. We see this in action when Simon kills the scavengers, clearly disregarding orders from negan and when Rick tells him about the scavengers he's shocked. Even if he ruled ruled with an iron clad hand, his own people came to bite him back in the ass. He had power and fear, not loyalty, alliances and friends.
@@Lalagragrabitch Negan took responsibility for not taking care of Simon the first time he did something like that. I think Simon followed his orders and then pulled something when he was sure that he could get away with it. He tried it at Hilltop too after Negan "died" fighting Rick, but he severely underestimated his opponents. Mostly what he pulled was smaller scale enough to fly under Negan's radar. Most of the people who helped him died in the war or the failed coup. I think it's telling that there were only 8 people left for Oceanside to go after: no way Simon pulled that off with just 8 people.
I can definitely imagine Negan getting mad at this, and not having ordered it. That said, he does like to sit in a bubble of plausible deniability, like with all of his wives despite his “no rape” rule. If he himself isn’t the one doing it, I could imagine a degree of cognitive dissonance. I mean he was gonna kill Carl at the end of Season 7
He literally comes seconds away from bashing in Carls head
Negan apologists often say he had a code of honor because he never kills children but somehow conveniently forget he was ready to kill Carl at the end of season 7 when it seemed Alexandria had lost the war. True he spared Carl after his assassination attempt killing 2 of his men but I think that was more due to him respecting Carl's strength than it was any moral objection to killing him. As you stated Negan viewed people as a resource and was choseing to make an investment in carl recognizing his potential to be a valuable asset later down the road.
💯
While I do believe he wasn't going to kill Carl and was more likely just psyching Rick out similar to how he did at the line-up, he has his fair share of hypocrisy; like burning that one doctor alive even though he would say "people are a resource"
@@demetriush21I don't think Negan was bluffing at that point but I guess that's up to interpretation.
A quote thats iconic with rick sums this up perfectly "its us or them"
How every evil empire is built
ik I'm late but the line after they kill all the terminus ppl in the church. Like the silence and the look and everybody's face, the people who killed and the people who watched. "It could have been us" one of my favorite episodes I wish I could watch it for the first time
I'd add to that what daryl said while escaping sanctuary "it's not about getting by, it's about getting it all"
@@vnarcotix fr that episode is actually my favorite the comparison between "we don't kill the living" to "it could've been us was crazy"
It was us. Lol 😂
I can empathize with everything rick has done. Mistakes or not, he is someone whose heart is in the right place, and he will never hurt anyone unless they threaten him or his family. The best leader and survivor
Rick was justified in all of his actions here! He had no other choice, the Saviors would’ve found Rick and his people eventually anyways, Rick and his people only had one option, kill or be killed.
HAHUAHAUHA, HE MURDERED PEOPLE IN THEIR SLEEP BRO, WTF. Literally could blood to unarmed people.
@@pedrolaughThey would have eventually crossed paths again but yeah lol, ricks group only did this in exchange for food from hilltop. This was not justified 🤣🤣🤣
@@pedrolaugh And the savours don't kill people in cold blood? the young kid at Hilltop was killed in cold blood. stop being a savours meat rider.
I think it was JP Gettey who had a plan to be rich, step 1 wake early step 2 work hard and step 3 strike oil. Do what you do but if you dont get lucky it means you just get 1 more day where good or bad happen
@@pedrolaughgood I’d do the same in their position if I found out those people were willing to end a kid’s life out of pettiness
The way i see it is the saviors would eventually find them and take control of them anyway. It was gonna be either Ricks group or the saviours to do it first
Thank you! Finally, a sane moral assessment of this! I've seen so many people defending Negan unironically. I agree with your assessment though about Rick. It's like people don't watch the scenes beofre the attack. Rick outright said, that the Saviors would've found Alexandria eventually, and that they had to strike first, not just for Hilltop, but for themselves. To protect Alexandria.
Lol
These are what ifs Rick killed plain and simple
Your morals will lead to your death in the apocalypse.
You WON'T survive.
If killing makes you wrong by default in the TWD universe than everyone is wrong in which case we’d have to judge their morals based on something else so that we can have an actual discussion on who might be right and wrong
@@fellowpassenger_54-67 I agree, but we're not going to judge the Walking Dead cast on any other morality scale because they themselves judge themselves on our morals today. Killing, is typically seen as wrong. Unless you're defending yourself, or someone else. Lying to your own, whether that be your own group or family, is seen as wrong. Rape, is seen as wrong. I could keep going. The point is, aside from a few differences, the characters of the Walking Dead judge morality using a twenty first century sense of justice and right and wrong. Judging their goodness by any other metric is just stupid, in my opinion.
Once again, the Captain sets the record straight. 🫡
Negan is a homicidal psychopath, not only was Rick justified here, but he was wrong in allowing Negan to live later. There is no end in reality where Negan can be redeemed, not without years of intensive therapy and intervention that isn't available here.
The Governor is a crazed version of Rick loosing a child. Negan is a crazed version of Rick loosing his wife. Shane is a version of Rick who never had a family.
Rick only had ethics because of his family. Him and Shane were friends because they do think alike.
When Rick lost Lori he lost a part of his ethics. Negan is essentially a reminder to Rick that he shouldn’t be consumed by Lori’s death the same way Negan is consumed by Lucille’s death.
Yet he has been redeemed, not forgiven but definitely redeemed
Well we know Negan's not a psychopath. Otherwise he'd have no empathy wotsoever. That would bel like us calling Rick that, especially when he does full rocktatorship. Simon however is a psychopath and we see this demonstrated on Jadis group
Negan is redeemed and has saved ricks group countless times over the seasons
He's not Negan anymore, that's for sure
Negan was cruel and tyrannical, but he objectively wasn't a psychopath. Simon, on the other hand, probably was. At the very least he was a sociopath (since we don't know if Simon was born that way or created through circumstance). Rick also wasn't wrong to spare Negan. I don't think that was a situation with a black and white, right or wrong answer. The brilliant Thomas Sowell once said that there is no such thing as solutions, only trade-offs. A case could be made for both decisions, but the decision was a calculates risk either way, and Rick was trying to put am end to things in a manner that provided the offered the best way forward for as many people as possible witile minimizimg the likelihood of future conflict. In the grand scheme of things, whether we're talking about the show or the comic, his gamble sparing Negan's life paid off in spades multiple times over.
@@thyweebhub idk what you're version of "redeemed" is but I'd definitely disagree with that
thank you!! the amount of times ive heard people say that ricks group was just as bad as the saviours or worse...everything our group did was in retaliation and rick even decided to let the remaining saviours be a part of his new world after they won the war.
Negan was gonna let them be with the saviors if they followed the rules
@@garyreid2472 negan was gonna kill one of their group regardless, thats what he does with every group he comes across. and theres no world where daryl doesnt react, which means glenn dies too. negan only lets the strongest survivers join his ranks, and our group would never sit by and watch their people get enslaved.
@@garyreid2472their “rules” were bullshit. that’s like telling someone who’s being abused to just not piss off their abuser and they’ll be fine
The Outpost wasn't "retaliation". The Saviors that attacked Sasha, Abe and Daryl was just a random Confrontation in the middle of the road. And they already killed those people too... we didn't lose a single person at that point.
"Everything our group did was in retaliation" is the most CAP statement of all... what about Rick & Morgan killing those Saviors that saved them in 8x14?? Was that justified? Because Negan would never do that.
@@CorsonDrax the group that attacked sasha abraham and daryl were working under negans orders. they killed one person of every group they came across before forcing the rest into slavery. that was their whole thing. and they would've tried it again next chance they got.
as for rick and morgan, those saviours only 'saved' them after attacking them in the first place, wdym negan would never do that...
thank you for clearing the air on this that whole season ricks saying was "we have to come for them before they come for us its that simple" and yet people are like "uuhhhhh they killed people who didn't even attack them" when Daryl and Abraham both had to kill some that were harassing them on the road back to Alexandria
Finally, someone sets the records straight. I hated seeing fans. Try to defend the Saviors for all those years. Like bro, they literally put people on their knees and killed their loved ones in front of them and laugh about it. And Took pictures and turned those same people into their slaves. Like what did you expect Risk's group to do? 😂😂
It actually makes me mad that people defend the saviors when even the saviors know how effed up they were after the war. It's like defending the terminus people because "they did what they had to, to survive". Screw everyone else. Like wtf??
@alexxandra- Honestly, it's people that think they're smarter than they actually are, and they just come off really stupid like. "Actually the Saviors, aren't that bad, Rick. And his group gave them no choice, but to kill glenn and abraham.
☝️🤓"
the problem with negan is he wants to control everything. His group do not make attempts to peaceable. They are heavy handed, aggressive, unstable and they CHOSE to do that. They made conscious decisions, but they were arrogant. If it wasnt Rick making the first attack, it would be the people who are subjugated to abusive and cruel behavior . but negans group beats that out of them
@@joshuasworldtour484I mostly agree, though it’s clear that sanctuary isn’t self sustaining without the enslavement of other communities as seen in S9. That is largely on the Saviors for not being smart in choosing a home base. Of course the Saviors could still establish trade without outright enslaving anyone as well. They had plenty of weaponry, scavenged goods, and manpower. I could see them functionally working as Mercs for other communities, actually providing protection instead of being glorified mobsters.
It all comes down to where you were when the apocalypse happened. Remember Gamma from the whisperers said they met Alpha first. I would say that the people that met Rick’s group first were lucky. Anyone could have ended up in Woodbury, the Sanctuary, etc. POV is everything imo. However, I do think Rick’s actions were justified.
Agreed it really does make all the difference
Good point
Exactly. Just like in the case of Morales (from season 1) who Rick met again during the savior war. He saw Rick as the bad guy even though he probably knew he was wrong. He wanted to protect his own community because they were the ones who saved him when he got into a mess with his family. The Reapers as well are another good example. They were members of the same military squad before the world went to shit.
Good point 💯
Never looked at it that
I always believed Rick screwed up here. And even the way it was done, we were supposed to notice his ego getting too big. It’s true that regardless, eventually they’d have to confront the Saviors. But I feel like a more level headed Rick would have began scouting them out, specifically seeing what their numbers were really like, and searching for Negan since he kept hearing that name. This same Rick would have tried to cut the head off the snake, literally attempting to assassinate Negan before the confrontation. This would still lead to at best a giant battle, and at worse a war, but killing their leader would have tilted the scales so much that it could have given Ricks’s group a real chance of winning.
This is a great example of why I love the character of Rick in the show, he made very realistic, human mistakes often. It just added to him becoming a strong leader, it’s the only way it could go under such circumstances.
if negan was assassinated all the way back in season six that leaves the crown prince of nut bags - simon - in charge, i think alexandria would have been slaughtered in that scenario at most taking one or two compounds down with them, through a domino effect of noone keeping him on leash hilltop and the kingdom would likely have been messed up too
Simon 💀
Unfortunately this would leave Simon in charge, who would go full scorched earth immediately. The saviors would likely begin to break from within as without Negan’s cult of personality you’d have more turncoats, but it wouldn’t happen overnight.
I use this during an argument with somebody recently. So thank you it was very helpful.
See there's a lot of things to consider regarding the massacre from both sides.
First of all, there's the killing of a kid mentioned by Hilltop. Here's the thing: I don't think that Negan was responsible for that, not directly at least, he's too against harming children. He probably ordered killing one person to make a point, that sure sounds like him, but killing a kid??? No. The Hilltop was dealing with the outpost led by Simon and all of the Saviors were "Negan." Killing a kid to make a point??? That sounds a lot more like something that Simon would do. You know, the man who ordered the execution of every male in Oceanside over the age of 10.
Second of all, as Negan himself told Maggie in 11x07, these were still men with friends and family who would want justice and answers. In Negan's place, Rick's group would and HAS retaliated for something like this, just minus the sadistic part of it. Abraham was the punishment for this, Glenn was because Daryl tried to attack Negan.
And for all of his flaws and enforced servitude, Negan kept an army consisting of a lot of psychopaths in line. I remember watching Season 8 and knowing that they were screwed if Simon wasn't dealt with before Negan was. Negan was keeping that guy in check. And as we know now, Simon was responsible for the Saviors more evil actions, not Negan. It was Simon who massacred Oceanside's males, not Negan, Negan was disgusted with that. He also went against Negan's orders and massacred Jadis' people. If Simon had been in charge throughout the war then EVERYBODY would've been dead. Negan had restraint, Simon didn't.
But its then negans fault for allowing simon to continue existing for as long as he did. He believes the people under him are his subordinates that'd do and tell him anything. But as he protrails himself to be this big bad tough guy once simon does something that everyone would expect negan they dont tell negan because it got results and negans happy with results.
@@nani4249 And Negan took accountability for that. After Simon massacred Jadis' people, Negan admitted that it was his fault, not because Negan ordered it, but because he didn't stop Simon when he should've the first time that Simon did something like that. Negan didn't even know that Simon had killed Jadis' people until Rick told him while they were fighting, Rick thought that he knew already and had ordered it. Most of the people who were Simon's loyal followers were killed either in the war or in Simon's failed coup. There were only like 8 Saviors who participated in the Oceanside Massacre and survived the war and Oceanside's revenge upon them actually led to Jadis' departure. 6 were unnamed and just mentioned to have disappeared and been killed. Another one was Justin who was a minor antagonist in the 9th season. The actor played the Scorpion King in most of those movies. The last one, the Savior who killed Cyndie's little brother, was Arat. She was a more prominent Savior in the show, the one who killed Olivia after Rosita tried to shoot Negan.
Dawg, Negans whole thing is that he enslaves communities to make them give up half their stuff, "People are a resource" is his saying, whether or not it was Simon who did that to hilltop doesn't matter because Negan is still very clearly a tyrant himself, yet you are defending him
Dawg, Negans whole thing is that he enslaves communities to make them give up half their stuff, "People are a resource" is his saying, whether or not it was Simon who did that hilltop doesn't matter because Negan is still very clearly a tyrant himself
100% correct. Negan had always maintained that he kills to keep people in line or some form of torture,. depending on the crime, as we've seen with Dwight and others
Negan doesn't kill kids. So when Gregory shares that story with Rick, that wasn't Negan himself
Negan states to rick, in their final battle why he didn't kill him in last day on earth. He didn't want to kill a father Infront of their child so why on earth would Negan kill a child in front of their father. We are shown that Simon is the one that deals with the hilltop and another lieutenant at the kingdom. Not Negan
I thought Negans whole thing was that he doesn’t kill kids but he beat a 16 yr old to death 🤔
Off topic. Just imagine of Negan tried this on the Governor when the Governor had that M60 patton tank and that tanker dude. Governor would of attacked first and roll over every Saviors regardless if the Saviors were combatant or not with that M60 tank. If you look at the Savior's armory they might have a lot of guns, people and resources but they don't have any heavy firepower like RPG or the big scary stuff to knock out that tank.
The Saviors also don’t have Daryl the Tank Slayer lol
its not as hard as youd think to pull of a mobility kill at the least, or disable the crew. the finnish pulled off a lot of tank kills with nothing more than molotov cocktails
@@FSM1138 Wrong on the cocktails. Cocktails might of worked on early tanks from the 1920s but from the late 1930s to current tanks cocktails won't do anything. Also how will you disable "the crew" when the crew are inside the tank? I know you're going to say "use drones" but the Savior doesn't have any drones. Also how will you "pull a mobility kill on a tank" when you don't even have land mines, hand grenades or small AT4 to disable the tracks? Lol.
Just like OP of the channel said. The Savior don't have Daryl the tank slayer. Lol
@@SCH292a disabled tank is just as bad as a destroyed tank
@@elxse4478You clearly didn't read my message. The Savior doesn't seem to have grenades, land mine or any sort of the heavy stuff to disable the tank.
at this point i think people who blame rick just want to look cool not siding with the protagonist.
saviors in the satelite station had picture of bashed heads on their walls. none of them were innocent and they would have attacked Alexandria killing innocent people.
negan pre his redemption ark was a hypocrite. he had so much power and influence and instead of managing his minions he was spending time with women he coerced into becoming his wives. he was a horrible irresponsible leader at best. he is responsible for rick killing his crew members since he let his minions go around and cause trauma among other survivor groups.
the only thing rick did wrong was underestimating the force he was dealing with.
I've always wondered what the fallout would be if Negan only killed Rick. He kills the head if the snake to keep the rest kf the surviors in line and Carl takes the lead. I wonder how that would go over.
Of course I could be wrong, but personally I think they’d manage to get their revenge for Rick but it would probably cost them their home and group.
I kinda think that Glenn would take the lead imo while Carl would want to be the one who took out Negan
War would start sooner probably. He’d need to kill more of the survivors to keep them in line, possibly prop up Spencer as the leader of Alexandria after. With a few of their most capable survivors dead he’d need to lower the resource tributes though. Go from 50% to 25% until Alexandria finds its footing again. In the long run I think this would have made more sense than obsessively trying to break Rick.
This video is going to blow up. Calling it now.
In my eyes The Saviors were initiating violence against Hill top and others and therefore Rick and his group were justified in essentially acting as mercenaries and attacking the saviors to liberate Hilltop and protect his own community.
I tell EVERY negan fanboy that all the time. The saviors ATTACKED FIRST!! It was already shown that they won’t compromise in anyway. They’ll take all that is yours & take your life or the life of someone you love away. They just love negan too much to see that.
But THIS is what made Negan aware of us in the first place...
@@CorsonDrax The saviors’ purpose is to go out and search for groups and or communities to bully into giving everything they own to them & doing everything for them as well. Sooner or later they would’ve crossed paths with Rick’s group like they did on the road before being blown up. They’ve already attacked some of my guys before I won’t wait for them to make a move on us again. That’s just logically speaking too. Rick just failed to do any reconnaissance to see what he was up against.
loosing timmy and his guys...@CorsonDrax
Yea it’s Negan’s fault Rick had no other option
He absolutely did. There's never a scenario where you have to invade an Outpost. Like why? Negan didn't even know who they were before that.
Let me guess, they had "no other option" in 8x14 as well? When Rick & Morgan killed those Saviors who just SAVED their life?
@@CorsonDraxLike why? Video pretty much explained it.
Rick and Morgan were wrong in that incident.
@@CorsonDraxyou voted for Biden didn't you?
@@mortem-tyrannis Probably 😂
1 They were desperate
2 They weare accustomed to dealing with bully groups and recognized this in The Saviors
3 The Saviors stood between them not dying of starvation
They didn't have a choice. But then you'd have to ask if it was right that The Govenor and the two brothers should have attacked the group they find in the woods. They were also desperate. Ignoring that they were killed by another group shortly after as they couldn't have predicted that.
I like how blunt and aggressive you are. Consider me a new sub!
Also yeah, I'd say Rick was right, but just went about it in a somewhat sloppy way. If he planned it more properly, I'm sure they would've been more strategic about it, rather than the Unga Bunga way they did. They were just feeling themselves too much and got humbled real quick!
Victory defeated the Grimes crew.
I've always said, Negan's worst enemy is himself. He set up a system that works but it requires maturity and restraint. Placing lots of undue trust in people like Simon to not just abuse the easily abused system. I full well believe Negan had no idea how evil his men were nor how many war crimes they casually committed day in and day out.
He thought his violence was limited, controlled and well-placed but the reality was, that he was no different to any other Raider. Remember, no one opposed the idea of killing the Saviours, they only doubted whether or not they could do it or not. Negan's system failed so badly, that 500+ people all more or less agreed he had to die. That's *Terrible*.
Luckily Negan realised this and while he still thinks a man like him is needed, his entire strategy and ideology has changed.
The problem is that a lot of people under Negan used him like a shield of sorts. I always said I hated the people who served under Negan more than the man himself simply because I don't like people who act tough because they know the biggest bully on the playground will involve themselves if someone pushes back
You also have to listen to what Negan had said himself. When he took over the sanctuary it was mindless chaos. I can't type out exactly what was going on there before he turned it around cos of UA-cam censorship but you get the idea
Negan also went through his one ordeal when attempting to save his wife, Lucille and was held hostage and threatened to do something before he could get what he needed which turned out to be too late
He then adopted the no bs approach, kill or be killed
@@ZeonEonsthe problem is I don’t think Negan even committed to the no bs approach. He was paradoxically incredibly cruel but merciful at the same time. These two things just aren’t compatible with how he was running his empire.
He was justified but it has always bothered me on a strategic level, Rick attacks a unknown enemy, with unknown men, with unknown firepower. He knew they are mobile, and he knew the saviours where shaking down multiple groups. Rick needed scouts out to figure out their routes, their security, their bases. His attack on the saviours is why I think Rick is a bad leader
THANK YOU! I agree with your take here. I've never really understood why so many people defended Negan. very good video essay.
yes and they were more powerful so killing them while they can't fight back was the smart thing to do, the only thing they should of done different is make sure the didn't miss anything out, they could of found maps showing different locations and lists of people and stuff like that
It was stupid. He did this without knowing the scale of his enemy. WHich is the reason he got checkmated
@@itscrossfadedI agree, Ricks biggest mistake was not making sure he knew EXACTLY who he was dealing with.
I think it was Daryl in one episode who said those guys, they aren't shit. And if you didn't read the comics you may believe that to be true. But only a fool approaches a dolphin without first making sure it's not actually a shark.
Rick was completely justified 100%.it always bugged me when idiots say that ricks group was in the wrong
I think it's important to discuss the distinction between necessary and/or best versus morally justified.
The irrational assumption is that all the men at the satellite station were bad men; or to go a step further that being a savior automatically makes someone bad.
We saw over the course of the show that some saviors were worse than others, and that some were just trying to survive but fell in with the wrong crowd.
Granted, everyone must take responsibility for their own actions. Choosing to uphold and enforce Negan's doctrine was an individual choice each savior made. But for many, the alternative was harsh punishment, sometimes even being forced to watch your loved ones suffer because of your own insubordination.
We cannot make an absolute judgement that everyone at the satellite station was bad. Negan himself says this to Maggie nearing the end of the show, "they had friends, girlfriends, families. Where do you think Aaron got Gracie?"
Was attacking the satellite station morally just? No. Not at all. But given the limited information and context our group had, it was arguably the best decision for them at the time.
5:00 the thing is that they didn’t witness it, although they were right they chose a side based on he said she said from a group they just met and knew nothing about. What if that group was just using them to take out a group and expand? Yes they took out a bad group but blindly trusting someone like Gregory who would do anything to save himself is just foolish on their part.
But also what do you think would Gregory have done if rick didnt try to take care of the saviors? He wouldve ratted alexandria out and that is very clear, so now you can choose between helping a group where everyone says the saviors are evil and just not believing it bc they're new and by that taking the risk of a dangerous group attacking alexandria
@@stylishdonkey the point is blindly trusting a group you know nothing about by wiping out another group is never a good choice. The right choice would’ve been to encounter the group themselves and come up with a plan once they got intel. If they did that they would’ve known that the saviors wasn’t just that small group at the satellite tower.
@@RollingxBigshot you got a point by saying they should've informed themselves more about the saviors but they already did encounter the group in 6x9
Rick was definitely in the wrong to not do any background checks or scouting, but it’s understandable bc of everything Rick went through, Rick had to take out an evil group so many times, he obviously would think this is the same
Like the video mentions Rick and co already ran into the saviors before and their behavior lined up with what Gregory told them, but I’ll agree I think this was partly opportunistic on Ricks part. I got the vibe he cared less about how evil the Saviors really were and more so just wanted to remove a potential threat to establish a trade relationship with Hilltop which Alexandria needed.
I honestly thought it was one of the best moments in the show, I honestly wish it went on a little longer, like they got to fight more saviors in more battles until they realized they were hopelessly outnumbered and had to surrender, rather than the weird thing of them leaving the community to find a doctor to deliver a baby when they likely would have be able to do it themselves and then getting shut down at their height
Seeing the group go on the offensive was cool. Also finding all that equipment was neat
It’s odd that there was even a vote when Negan’s Men don’t negotiate for peace they will just keep coming to take everything you have.
Anyone else confused on why Negan doesn’t kill kids yet allegedly killed the kid at the hilltop?
Wasn't that Simon?
Rick was right but Negan said "Let me tell you something."
Negan killing a 16 year old sounds kind of out of character. We know he holds a secret soft spot in a way for children. He seemed to have threatened Carl multiple times, but I always felt that was a way to manipulate Rick rather than him seriously contemplating hurting Carl. I feel if he was pushed in an extreme case, he would hurt or kill Carl, but in most circstances, they were just threats. I guess it depends if you feel 16 years old in that society was a child though. Many times throughout history, 16 years old was considered a young man and even sometimes today. Parents call their 16 year old kids children, yet at the same time, people want people 12, 13 14 or younger thrown away for life or executed for doing horrendous crimes.
😂 if it wasn’t for kingdom and hilltop intervening in the first place, he would’ve killed Carl
The heroes though they were cutting the head off the snake. They knew the saviors were dirty. They just didn't know how well armed, and well manned they were.
Deserves more subs fr
Loving your Walking Dead content man! New subscriber here. I listen to your videos on my commute to work as I’ve been trying to find a good podcast / person who talks about interesting TWD topics. Excellent work man!!
I absolutely agree with your analysis on whether or not Rick’s decision to preemptively attack the Saviors at the satellite outpost was justified. If anything I think Rick should have been more strategic and tactical with their plans though. He should have gathered more intelligence on his enemy and then carefully planned a coordinated attack.
Had he done that, they could have potentially chipped away the at the saviors bit by bit while keeping Alexandria free and undetected.
I'm not going to argue with the main point of the video. Just want to say some of those "moral compass calibrations" were just wrong and I'm not a bad person for saying they are.
What are you specifically talking about?
You forgot the part where every time they meet someone new they say they’re gunna have to kill someone on top of taking half of their shit. Yeah… pretty sure they were justified in attacking first.
The saviors were not good people at all. Even if Rick and company hadn’t slaughtered those saviors in their sleep, the saviors would have found Rick and co sooner or later. Conflict was inevitable
Ooh I liked your comparisons!
Notice that all choices affecting others safety are always made by those who will never be in combat and politicians.
I rewatched TWD recently and people who defend the saviours either forgot everything in season 6,7 and 8 or don't understand shit about this and the main fault for this is this Negan's redemption ark that makes absolutely no sense and made people forget about who really was, in the coomics Negan's redemption makes sense but in this show it's BS after BS.
The whole point of the storyline in Season 6-7-8 is that we're just as bad as the Saviors. Highlighted in episodes like 6x12, 6x13, 8x14, excedra.
Why would our group be 100% unjustifiably in the right? That's just a boring storyline then.
The Saviors would be no different than any storyline we've had previously. The entire point of them is that there's not a clear good guy / bad guy.
@@CorsonDrax Forget the second half of season 7 and the whole season 8 ,everything in these seasons are trash that's exactly what I said season 7 and 8 were the start of Negan's redemption ark and most of it made no sense, watch the whole season 6 again and tell me ,how the hell are they the same? The Saviours enslaved other groups if they didn't give them what they demanded they would kill them Negan had fun smashing people's heads he had a whiteboard with photos of their brains smashed to the ground, not to mention the iron and other torture stuff, have you actually watched this video you're commenting on? Rick's group is nothing like the savious. It's not hard to understand the difference.
@@CorsonDraxdefinitely one of the dumbest arguments I’ve heard trying to defend the saviors.
@@CorsonDrax Please use your brain and if that's too exhausting then at least watch the video before commenting
They were aggressive when the shot at Daryl Abraham and Sasha on the road before Timmy.
I like the idea of Rick's group being in the wrong for it in terms of that's what negan believes or is at least telling himself
they were hired as mercenaries to do a job wasn’t evil and if anyone trys to justify anything the saviors do as good you need to look in the mirror
Long story short: People love the villain too much, and fall for charms and personality too much.
The deeds, actions make the individuals, and the ugly results speak for themselves.
The Saviors did exactly what they were supposed to do. He used classic medieval rulership to maintain order in a chaotic situation.
I agree with your take on this , especially Rick’s leadership of the mission .. They should’ve listen to Morgan when he spoke about trying to have a sit down first using it as covert fact finding mission . At least try to get more information of who/what/where , and especially how many your dealing with.. Rick’s leadership on this was half cocked , and dangerous, and we all saw the outcome . When you don’t plan things out better you get bad results .
The saviors, actively genociding a group and hunting them, they fight back.
The saviors are the victims somehow?
Negan was trying to establish order. That takes force. He was trying to get things together so that even the "lower class" ( who opposed him) had what they needed to survive.
He didn't just kill to kill. He was willing to take people in for a chance to prove their worth. Even if it was sociopathic. He didn't kill until he deemed it necessary for his vision to continue.
Rick always went in guns blazing...
Your second example of the preemptive strike, is not morally correct. It puts you as the leader sending others to their death against what you deem to wrong, first example yes trying to save others from a lunatic is heroic because you're putting yourself on the line for others.
If you have to explain this, it states that people are idiots. I can't fathom how people don't get that.
If only our survivors had done enough reconnaissance ahead of time, then it would have worked out better, as they would have coordinated an attack larger than just the one outpost.
Anyone defending a group of thugs (the Saviors) are downright weird.
TWD and Dead City both tried to rewrite this and make it seem like it was Simon and the Croat who attacked Hilltop and Oceanside. Making Negan out to be a better guy.
If you rewatch the scenes where those events are originally talked about, it was never actually said that Negan did it, just the Saviors who are ALL "Negan" remember??? I specifically rewatched the moment where Beatrice told Tara about the massacre: she only said that it was the Saviors, Negan was never mentioned by name as the culprit. Negan probably ordered the events at the Hilltop, but ordering the execution of a kid??? No, that doesn't sound like him. That DOES sound like Simon though. Negan probably ordered his usual "warning" and Simon chose a kid. Negan said multiple times in Season 8 that Oceanside was actually Simon: he told Jadis that he should've stopped Simon when he did that instead of giving him another chance and he called Simon a sick demented ghoul for the Oceanside massacre while confronting him after getting back. When Oceanside exacted revenge upon the Saviors for that shortly before Rick's departure, they specified that it was Simon who massacred their people. The guy massacred the Scavengers for angering him and he wanted to kill everyone in the communities from the start. Negan was always the one with restraint and sanity while Simon was a loose cannon who just wanted to kill everyone.
Putting morals aside, in terms of a strategic advantage, attacking first logically makes more sense. Do you wait for this inevitable threat to come to you or do you go and remove the threat? That being said, they didnt have enough intel which led to there downfall. So yes they shouldve attacked but not at that time and only after knowing there enemy.
It was DO or DIE....period.
They killed then for hilltop, they deserved losing Glenn and Abraham
I like Negan as a character, and at the same time I do not idolize him. But the mentally of some in the t0xic “Saviors” fandom are hypocritical and hilarious 😂 The “justifications” some of them have over any and all of the actions of Negan/the Saviors is just baffling and really goes to show the kind of people they likely are in real-life lol
Definitely and it really scares me the distance people will go to defend them.
Being told what Saviors have done and what happend. I think Rick would've stalled longer till they knew more what they were up against. What i mean what was told to Tara by Oceanside community. They told Tara it was only a 1 of several outposts they took. Rick had valid point if they talked first, that gives up their advantage of coming unseen. But i think they would've waited if they knew more what they were up against. They thought previous conflicts were a breeze, even against The Governor which we know wasnt.
I do think Rick was right people say that Rick started it but if you remember the saviors were going to kill Sasha Abraham and Daryl which he also just said while I’m watching this so no Rick was not wrong for doing this the because yes eventually the saviors would have found them so it’d probably be better to get the same people who tried to kill 3 of our group before they find us and do something again
To the people who are complaining and say that Rick and company killing saviors in their sleep is wrong; I have one question. If you discovered a threat to your family and friends, would you not act? There are no rules in warfare. I don't care if you're on the shitter, if I have an opening I'm taking it. Nothing is fair and in the apocalypse you have to take every advantage that is given to you.
Rick was right but they underestimated the saviors
Hella underestimated them.
Thank you somebody had to spell it out bluntly..FFS the counterargument of Rick being in the wrong is truly a willful attempt to bend reality just to be okay with Negan's charisma... as you said.
"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"
Rick's actions were understandable, he only heard bad things about the saviours knowing they threatened Daryl, Abraham and Sasha and then finding out the killed a 16 year old boy. Rick knew it was inevitable that he would encounter the saviours and Rick doesn't enjoy killing people like Negan that sets them apart.
Everyone always gets Ricks pov but no one ever looks at Negan
Imagine hearing that some prick named Rick killed hundreds of your people for no reason in their sleep and stole a baby. Keep in mind all of what Rick heard that they did to the hilltop was Simon’s fault
@@SunnyBunny148 where did Aaron get Gracie from
Going slightly off topic, Rick and Co should have researched the Saviours first before attacking. They should have spied and searched for more outposts.
There wasn’t enough time
@@angelinaoliver5587there was, Rick was just cocky and thought this group was like all the ones he destroyed before
I never understood why Jesus or anyone from the Hilltop didn't at least let Rick know how outnumbered he was. That if he attacked one outpost, it was just like taking out a small portion of their men. It seemed like as Far and Rick knew, the saviors weren't as organized as they actually were and could be taken out preemptively
A preemptive strike based on an unreliable claim of potential threats is not justified.
Ok it wasn’t preemptive as the saviors already attacked. How do you people keep forgetting that the saviors tried to kill abe,sasha, and daryl first. Also, if you hear that this person is going around killing people, and his group has already tried to kill your people, why wouldn’t you attack back?
Yes he’s back with another Great video please keep going with characters from the Walking Dead and Last of Us
The saviors were plunderers. The kind that take by force .
He had no right to attack someone that didn't attack him also how does he know for certain that Jesus was telling the truth I would have heard about what is going on locate where all there outposts are and then moved the alexandrian residents 1000 miles away from the furthest outpost to not deal with the saviors
16!? I thought kids were a LINE
They probably mean LITTLE kids, like 10 and 11 year olds, 16 and 17 year olds are a little different.
Yeah but the girl that Croat was torturing was high school aged. So why did Simon have such a problem with it if they've killed high school aged teens before
@@cometfaceIt’s been established that Simon acts nicer than he is around Negan, which is why Negan eventually kills him.
@@cjbladesworth8049 so Simon only said there was a line because he wanted to be butt buddies with Negan? And this is the guy that ended up trying to betray him right?
@@cometface Yes. Simon’s always been a two faced ass.
Sometimes the best defense is a good offense…….
How many people did negan save though? How many predators did he keep in check. How many of his people's deaths did he ignore especially with Carl. Rick would've been dead if Carl wasn't in that line up. These are not actions of a psychopath. Negan managed to play it so well he had the real ones bowing to him. You are using morals and reasoning that wouldn't survive in this type of world. Negan the only reason Rick and the group weren't slaughtered.
Negan saved no one but the saviours themselves (and that’s arguable), he killed way more people than he saved, he also killed mostly innocent people to provide for his men, something Rick would never do, negan was awful at keeping his men and predators in check, look at the dude he killed when he almost raped Sasha, that rapist could thrive in the system negan set up, negan just got lucky he found him before he raped Sasha
everybody is a villain in this tv series. At the same time none
People can't handle that type of deep thought😂
They met rick first, so "Rick be good" LOL
when they burned the beds you already knew he was right
Rick was right but he should have found out more about the saviors before attacking them
A part of this episode and the walking dead as a whole that i absolutely love is the complex theme of morals and the injustices the befall those who do the right thing for example when glenn kills that sleeping guy so that heath doesn't have to it shows that these characters may take on moral hardships to conclusively do the right thing in the end glenn saves heath the guilt by taking it for himself he muders a sleeping man to do the right thing in regards to heath yet the action is not made more easy or even more justified and as a result we see glenn suffer with his conscience and inevitably be left with a bad taste in his mouth from the interaction
This show really doesn't reward goodness in kind its masterful writing and builds on the apocalypse theme very well
The show is definitely a wonderful cornucopia of moral dilemmas and ethical problems. I love it.
The saviors had it coming in all honesty
I keep seeing people bring up the fact that Rick and friends killed people in their sleep. Said sleeping people were doing so peacefully with pictures of their victims (victims they murdered purely to extort those that remained)
Rick and his group should of have just pledged allegiance/fealty to Negan, and then when a glaring opportune presents it’s self take down the saviors, attacking the outpost was never a good idea.
That's what Rick's basically been doing with the CRM.
Hilltop was attacked by the saviors because they had a weak pathetic leader like Gregory. How they could have a 360 degree view and not have lookouts and snipers guarding the community is just bad planning.
There's a difference between being right and not being wrong, in a world that went back a few years in ethics and civilized display negan was just following the patterns of the apocalypse. The strong reign and the weak are prey, if one is lucky they're not givin a role in society that leads to their death. Honestly no matter how you look at it rick had no chance of winning if it wasn't for Rosaline setting Eugene up to be negan's bullet maker. Which gave rick all he needed as a chamce to win the war. Had that not been the case all of rick's sacrifices would've been for nothing. Is this me defending negan per say, no. However if rick cared enough not to affiliate himself with negan's backsliding moral code rick should've been more mindful about his tactics and chose his battles more wisely even if it meant waiting longer to properly arrange a efficient execution.
He bit off more than they could chew. Clearly a major mistake.
He still should of gotten more information
Rick was right, People have a fascination for Negan, because the wickedness makes them shudder, they try to excuse him, to defend him, "Negan would never kill a child", while he was going to kill Carl.
One should disregard irrelevant things like charm and a sense of humour and pay attention only to the deeds, the acts one commits.
No permissible court of law would ever allow a man like Negan to ever walk free again. He would rot in prison for the rest of his life, presuming he is not executed. He committed way too many crimes, and did them persistently without any provocation.
This is talking from a purely legal standpoint. Nothing short of a life or a death sentence would be awaiting him.
Shane would be proud
This new series is just a money grab. Him and his girl arguing all episodes “we are going to Alexandria” “no we are staying” Next Episode “no we are leaving” “no we are staying” no we are leaving” “no now you leave I’ll stay”
Next Episode “no so we will both stay”
And repeat
This has to be the most patronising video I've seen in a long time. It's just you saying "they're right you're stupid why are you stupid it's simple they're in the right" over and over with generic fear pandering arguments you would hear for things like the Iraq war of the early 2000s.
That was just karma what happened to the Saviors. They went around fucking with other groups. So it was only a matter of time before someone fucked with them.
Rick's group didn't go around threatening other groups to give them half their shit or die
He was right but they should have scouted them out more heavily
It was the best decision Rick made at the time with the information he had.
Carl should’ve lived & taken Rick’s place a sole leader of all communities. He would’ve got Negan on his side faster than Rick
people defending the saviors forget about how sadistic they were. alot of them enjoyed killing and being brutal and if it wasn't rick group that took them down it would've been someone else inside the ranks or outside.