I always imagined that when the Brits decided to go to war in Afghanistan alongside the US, there was one absolutely ancient old backbench MP who just asked "pardon me... but are we doing this AGAIN? As in a fourth time?"
This actually happened, many questioned the logic behind it in the Commons the Lords and the general public, we knew it wouldn't end well. US intelligence wanted to go over all the information the British had about our previous wars and conflict in Afghanistan, but were satisfied "modern strategies" would be able to break a tribal society....
Forgive me for my lack of historical knowledge. I am aware of only three - the one mentioned here, the Soviet attempt starting in 1979, and the one which just ended. Could you elaborate on what you said was the FOURTH attempt?
@@gregparrott the Brits went to war with Afghanistan three previous times. The first Anglo-Afghan war was 1839-42, the second was 1878-80, and the third was in 1919.
We’re just the latest in a long line of governments that decided to declare themselves the winners and go home (to coin a Bill Mauldin phrase). Central Asia / Afghanistan= the graveyard of Empires! No reason we shouldn't have seen this coming, or learn from the Soviets before us. And the British Empire before them. Or the Sikhs before that, Timur Persians before that, Mughals of India, Genghis Khan, the Arab caliphate Umar, Alexander the Greek, the Indian Maurya... 🤔 🤷♂️
There's no mystery as to why it's a country impossible to maintain control over, there is no country. Any conqueror has to first unite hundreds of tribes, separated by vast swaths of desert and mountains and beliefs. Afghanistan isn't the home of the finest fighters the world has ever seen, it simply doesn't exist but on paper.
I wouldn’t say caliphate Umar was unsuccessful though Since they DID NOT fight a long campaign in Afghanistan (they went there only after the Sassanids were defeated) Also the very obvious signs of that the Muslims won can be seen today in Practically 98 percent of Afghanistan is Muslim
Arrest, Interrogate, and Indict For 9/!! War Crimes & Crimes Against Humanity: Susan Rice Larry Silverstein Frank Lowy Ronald Lauder Lewis M Eisenberg Jules Kroll Jeremy Kroll Jerome Hauer Kobi Alexander Sivan Kurzberg Paul Ellner Omer-Marmari Michael Goff James Schlesinger Dov Zakheim Judge Michael B Mukasey Judge Alvin Hellerstein Kenneth Feinberg Ben Chertoff Michael ChertoFf Paul Kurzberg Yaron Schmuel Oded Ellner Sheila Birnbaum Stehen Cauffman Philip Zelikow Henry Kissinger George W. Bush Dick Cheney Donald Rumsfeld Condoleezza Rice Paul Wolfowitz L. Paul Bremer Richard Perle Elliot Abrams Nicole Wallace Douglas Feith Ari Fleischer General Richard Myers General Ralph Eberhart OTS Agent Bennette Marc Grossman David Frum Jack Abromoff Shyan Sunder Collin Powell Tony Blair Barrack Obama Hillary Clinton Joe Biden Donald Trump And ... Benjamin Netanyahu!
I think the best thing I heared about Afghanistan is: There are families, that sitting at the same spot since nearly 200 years and shot with the same rifle at anyone with an uniform. Only thing changing is the color.
@@Historyfreak-f7o Bingo! Look at how the MIC forced Biden to backhole our centuries old ally, France. It's all about the Benjamins. The MIC owns us and our treasury.
Fun Fact: in the original Victorian Sherlock Holmes stories Holmes meets Dr. Watson on his return from Afghanistan. In the latest modern day Sherlock Holmes TV shows Sherlock meets Dr. Watson on his return from Afghanistan.
Sadly I suspect it won't be the last time a new modern SH reboot has Dr Watson returning from a war in Afganistan. Generation after generation refuse to learn from history.
@@MikeSmith-nx4ct Most people would know that, of course, the books and TV show are fiction...I thought that would go without saying. What is a fact is that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wrote that Dr Watson had just returned from Afghanistan as the war was contemporary to the stories - and in the current TV show they have Dr Watson just returning from Afghanistan as it is, once again contemporary.
Such change, which is largely a function of culture, generally happens from within. No modern day polity is the result of someone outside forcing them to embrace Democracy. Rather treaties, with the right local men placed to govern might just have a desirable outcome, as was the case with Japan.
As a disabled US Army Veteran, the US has "cowboyed up" around the world for the last 100+ years. We here in the US have this arrogance in thinking that our way is the best way.. The reality is there are places in the world that do not want the same type of lifestyle we have here in the "Western" part of the world... Afghanistan is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Remember to thank a veteran the next time you see one..they and their families will carry this weight of that decision as the days go on. Just being honest..🤔
@@aprylrittenhouse4562 As a disabled US Army Veteran, the US has "cowboyed up" around the world for the last 100+ years. We here in the US have this arrogance in thinking that our way is the best way.. The reality is there are places in the world that do not want the same type of lifestyle we have here in the "Western" part of the world... Afghanistan is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Remember to thank a veteran the next time you see one..they and their families will carry this weight of that decision as the days go on. Just being honest..🤔
@@aprylrittenhouse4562 I agree but do you know how many people in Afghanistan support the Taliban? A lot! We here in America asked for it trying to nation-build with Neoliberals pushing PC and Woke thinking on the majority of the nation. If we just stuck to destroying international terrorism that was using Afghanistan as a training base we would have just done fine. All that effort and treasure spent for 20 short years of artificial peace. Well back to the drawing board.🤔
Unbelievably timely reminder of the two maxims: "Those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it" and "Never get involved in a land war in Asia"! Thanks for reminding us so brilliantly about history we need to remember... so we ( hopefully ) won't repeat it.
That's exactly how I felt that day! I KNEW Bush and his cronies would use 9-11 as an opportunity to make a mark in the history books as well as make themselves rich(er)! Now, after 20 years it's someone else's turn! Remember there's all those Opium plants still over there that deserve to be "liberated"!
I remember reading "Travels into Bokhara" by Sir Alexander Burnes. This was in the '80s, when the Soviets were in Afghanistan. Burnes was assassinated in 1841 in Kabul with his younger brother, Charles. Afghanistan, where Empires go to die... Alexander the Great failed and his empire soon collapsed, the British failed and decades later their empire collapsed, Soviets failed and the USSR collapsed, US failed and here we are now. Next?
Alexander's Empire did not fail in Bactria (aka Afghanistan)...it was actually the last Greco kingdom funny thing. That's why everyone after them had a hard time...you have descendants of the silver shields and Alexander's Army defending their land
"Ghost Wars" by Steve Collins is an excellent history of our proxy war against the Soviets, and the Afghan Civil War that followed after the Soviets were defeated.
@@Nperez1986 this is something that should be taught more widely... what the Pashtun gene stock actually is, at least some of it. I only learnt about it very recently myself.
America: “I had the worst retreat from Afghanistan!” Soviet Union: “No, I did!” (?): Amateurs. America: “What did you say, punk?!” Britain: “Amateurs!”
@@trescatorce9497 And some came home is pieces and some came home in body bags. There is little to no consolation in saying some came home in one piece. In fact saying that is a cruel barb to those wounded and to their families, and to the families of those who died. I suggest you think carefully of how your words may sound and be taken by those hurt by the Soviet and the American folly of fighting in Afghanistan before you commit them to public viewing.
@@notapplicable531 I meant to say that they were not hurt, physically of course. The minds of ALL of them will be forever affected. As for my so called lack of tact and/or poor choice of words, tell that to the politicians of any country guilty of sending young people into a meat grinder. Their words are much more damaging
@@notapplicable531 There was nothing disrespectful or cruel in Luis Messina's comments. If his words offended any Soviets or Americans it is because their experience was distorted by actually being there. Their service is respected and appreciated and Messina did nothing to dishonor that service. Afghanistan has proven to be a quagmire for all who venture into it. Messina was simply conveying the degrees to which it has been a quagmire to all.
@@zachmiller9175 Im not so sure. I think Lance (my new favourite history teacher) brings us a ton of great and singular stories which, due to the passage of time do get forgotten. Some though, like Afghanistan invasions, are truly instances of history that is bound to result in similar outcomes.
My daughter worked in Afghanistan for nearly 10 years, by shear luck she headed to the states for some dental work the Sunday before the collapse. Anyway, regarding bribes, she said that they should be paid at the lowest level, in cash and on time, failure to do so will increase the amount and move payments to the next highest authority. Never get to the highest level. If one gets to the highest level, they like the mob, will own you.
Battle of Waterloo was on 15th June 1815; Elphinstone was Lieutenant Colonel of the 33rd Regt. of Foot being awarded a CBE for his actions. The 33rd (1st West Riding of Yorkshire) Regt. of Foot was the 'old' command of Sir Arthur Wellesley while in India. The regiment, like Elphinstone, served throughout the Peninsular War.
Have to admit when the Taliban promised "safe withdrawl from Kabul" this was what was going through my mind. There were plenty of stories from the time that suggested that it was a deliberate plan by Akbar Khan and afterall if he had been negotiating in good faith then why did he take the officers captive. During the ambushes he was reporteed to have shouted "spare them" in Persian and "kill them" in Pashtun.
There were bodies on the streets before we finished pulling out. Anyone who thought the Taliban weren’t going to take out their perceived enemies is an idiot
@@wolfsmith2865 would be nice if our political "leaders" and our military generals would have to divest their stock ownership from our war machine. hahah what a world that would be
History deserves to... no, MUST BE Remembered, especially by leaders who want to "intervene" in places they don't really belong. Otherwise all we do is repeat history again and again...
Unfortunately those "leaders" are puppets to their master string-pullers who stay out of sight, making all the money, and letting everyone else get the shaft.
@@thetruth-hl7ct Try telling that to the innocent men, women and children killed and wounded in ANY such invasion. They don't KNOW the reasons WHY...all they do is DIE.
I enjoyed this video completely. Very timely considering the American recent retreat from Afghanistan. I knew of the British involvement there but you have totally schooled me on the subject. If we fail to learn the lessons of history we are destined to repeat them. And we did as did the Soviets.
THAT....IS another thing that is SO Frustrating and Enraging!!! Churchill was there as a reporter and did great Reportage and Analysis of the Culture,which IS still pretty much the SAME in the rural areasTODAY. AND...The Marines apparently FORGOT the lessons of the Beirut Barracks Bombing!!! ASTOUNDING !!!
Ghengis Kahn, Xerxes of Persia, Alexander the Great, Imperial Russia and the British Empire at it’s peak all failed to subdue the people of Afghanistan. Then Soviet Russia and now the United States. Perhaps we should leave them alone.
@@brookeshenfield7156 Bruh, the US, USSR and GB all successfully conquered and held an isolated and mountainous region sometimes thousands of miles across the globe for decades.
@@brookeshenfield7156 They controlled an area halfway across the globe with relatively minimal military assets for several decades, how is that not a success
I would highly recommend the novel of M.M. Kaye "Far Pavillons". Even though it is essentially a fiction novel, the realities of the time are portrayed with admirable fidelity and both the history of the British army massacre in 1842 and the British residence massacre in Kabul in 1879 are reported there in detail. In my opinion had Breshnev and Bush read this novel, they would never ever invade Afghanistan.
If only they might have. Brezhnev was in a vegetative state by the time of the Afghan invasion and Bush was enamored with Tom Brokaw's novel, The Greatest Generation, which convinced him Afghanistan should become a prosperous liberal democracy after the war, like Germany or Japan. Thus neither was open to persuasion.
Arrest, Interrogate, and Indict For 9/!! War Crimes & Crimes Against Humanity: Susan Rice Larry Silverstein Frank Lowy Ronald Lauder Lewis M Eisenberg Jules Kroll Jeremy Kroll Jerome Hauer Kobi Alexander Sivan Kurzberg Paul Ellner Omer-Marmari Michael Goff James Schlesinger Dov Zakheim Judge Michael B Mukasey Judge Alvin Hellerstein Kenneth Feinberg Ben Chertoff Michael ChertoFf Paul Kurzberg Yaron Schmuel Oded Ellner Sheila Birnbaum Stehen Cauffman Philip Zelikow Henry Kissinger George W. Bush Dick Cheney Donald Rumsfeld Condoleezza Rice Paul Wolfowitz L. Paul Bremer Richard Perle Elliot Abrams Nicole Wallace Douglas Feith Ari Fleischer General Richard Myers General Ralph Eberhart OTS Agent Bennette Marc Grossman David Frum Jack Abromoff Shyan Sunder Collin Powell Tony Blair Barrack Obama Hillary Clinton Joe Biden Donald Trump And ... Benjamin Netanyahu!
Alexander’s mother Olympias wrote him a letter once, getting on his case for taking so long to knock off these primitive, poverty-stricken Afghans. So Alexander captured three tribal chiefs and sent them back to Macedonia, each one carrying an offering of soil from his own tribal homeland; they were supposed to deliver these tokens to Olympias as a gift from her son. But waiting outside the queen’s palace door, the three chiefs got into a fight and killed one another. Alexander’s Mom wrote back: ‘Now I understand, my son.’ from Paul Gross’ 2016 film ‘Hyena Road’
@@WildBillCox13 I can’t take credit, I filched that from Paul Gross’ 2016 film ‘Hyena Road’. I recommend that picture if you haven’t seen it, and even more so ‘Passchendaele’.
@@jeffreyadams648 I detect sarcasm. If I'm wrong I'm sorry. If I'm correct, 21 likes would seem to imply that everyone is not as erudite as you. Peace and Love tk
In high school in the ‘70s, I read “Flashman,” which described the 1842 Afghan expedition and it’s fate. When the US invaded 20 years ago, I dreaded what might become of our troops. I was told I didn’t know what I was talking about when I warned people that we needed to stay out of Afghanistan. I regret to say I was right. Had we not had the airport, it could have been truly disastrous. Will China will be the next victims to not remember history? It’s their turn. Thank you for this timely, interesting history.
Only way China cares to get involved militarily is if attacks are launched against them from bases in Afghanistan. Other than that, China doesn't judge. Taliban can do WHATEVER it wants inside Afghanistan. Remember all the people criticizing the US for getting into bed with less-than-desirable partners during the cold war? Look at who the USSR (and now China) are friends with. The major difference is that citizens are allowed to criticize the US. That doesn't happen un USSR/Russia or in China. That says something.
I was wondering when someone was going to mention George MacDonald Fraser's "Flashman." :) I read the whole series and highly recommend it. I had the same concerns throughout our stay in Afghanistan. I knew we'd never "modernize" the Afghans, but I was hoping we'd at least avoid a tragic "Retreat From Kabul 2.0."
I kinda miss Afghanistan. I haven't heard an IED level explosion since 2012. Also miss the kids throwing rocks at your guard tower post. Or watching the old guy across the street, through your nvg's, at night, walking outside, lifting his man dress, and drop a decent in the dirt. Ahhhh yes, good times!
@@nickverbree A friend on mines was in Vietnam. While on guard duty he wasn't supposed to fire first at anyone trying to sneak in. He would use his night vision equipment, not as nice as the modern stuff, but he would shoot the sappers trying to sneak in. The VC would retrieve the bodies and he would write in his report that "Warning shots were fired". My friend took no chances as those VC sappers could crawl through the concertina wire barriers.
@@Rhaspun yeah, ROEs could be a big hindrance. We had many an in theatre debate about whether or not a motorcycle was a big enough threat to fire a warning shot at.
I'm glad someone mentioned that - Flashman escaped as well, so there were 2 survivors. George McDonald Fraser (RIP) is a brilliant storyteller, and his novels about Flashman are historically correct, with Flashman inserted, and used to explain hitherto unexplained circu,stances! They are also very entertaining! Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe novels are similarly correct.
I wonder if you're not blaming the wrong people. I heard that a large part of the money and arms that we gave for the arming and rebuilding of Afghanistan went no where good. And further, a lot of our contractors who were responsible for carrying on this work didn't care about anything as long as the money flowed,
Actually, the mentality has changed. Did you not see thousands of people trying to get out of there? It only takes one cook to spoil the stew, so to speak. Similar challenges exist, for instance, in Cuba. Lots of Cubans want a free Cuba, but the Communist dictatorship refuses to let go. At this point, it just looks like stubbornness gets in the way, b/c things haven't gotten better in Cuba for decades. Power, no matter how poor, just doesn't let go.
I guess those afghan soldiers either wanted to live under taliban rule or were just scared and threw down their arms.At this point I hope US changes it outlook on that
We seem incapable of "nation building". Not surprising, since we seem to be doing a lousy job of it at home. But it appears that we may have culturally Westernized much of the urban population. Kabul has well over 4 million inhabitants. It would be pretty hard to turn the calendar back on that completely. It should be interesting.
"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains, jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains and go to your gawd like a soldier." ---Rudyard Kipling
@@blank557 This was routine. From 'Charlie Wilson's War' Their idea was to encourage Soviet officers and soldiers to defect to the mujahideen. As [CIA chief Gust] Avrakotos derisively describes it, “The muj were supposed to set up loudspeakers in the mountains announcing such things as ‘Lay down your arms, there is a passage to the West and to freedom.'” Once news of the program made its way through the Red Army, it was argued, there would be a flood of defectors. ….Avrakotos thought [Oliver] North and Perle were “cuckoos of the Far Right”….”What Russian in his right mind would defect to those fuckers all armed to the teeth?” Avrakotos said in frustration. “To begin with, anyone defecting to the Dushman would have to be a crook, a thief, or someone who wanted to get cornholed every day, because nine out of ten prisoners were dead within twenty-four hours and they were always turned into concubines by the mujahideen. I felt so sorry for them I wanted to have them all shot.” The meeting went very badly indeed. Gust accused North and Perle of being idiots….Avrakotos thought that would be the end of the…idea, but he greatly underestimated the political power and determination of this group, who went directly to Bill Casey. ….In spite of the angry complaints, Clair George and everyone else on the seventh floor agreed with Avrakotos’ position. He says that Director Casey even privately told him, “I think your point is quite valid. What asshole would want to defect to these animals?” But the issue wouldn’t go away. Perle, [Walt] Raymond, and the others continued to insist that the Agency find and send back to the United States the many Russian defectors they seemed to believe…the mujahideen were harboring. They had visions of a great publicity campaign once these men reached America. ….Avrakotos describes what happened next with the kind of pleasure he feels only upon achieving revenge. It had been almost impossible to locate two prisoners, much less two defectors. The CIA found itself in the preposterous position of having to pony up $50,000 to bribe the Afghans to deliver two live ones. “These two guys were basket cases,” says Avrakotos. “One had been fucked so many times he didn’t know what was going on. The other was an alcoholic.”
If we had paid attention to history, we should have conducted a significant punitive campaign in Afghanistan after 9/11, and then left. Staying was a whole heap of nothing.
Usually it has been one of the most powerful armies of the era. Alexander, British, Russia, US; all powerful, all failed. Next up, China? Powerful, playing in the area. China is the most likely.
@@Echowhiskeyone yup china is probably drawing up invasion plans. It's like Afghanistan exists to be a check on empire, making sure no empire grows to big
@@Echowhiskeyone The Talibans have to do something really dumb to get China to invade. I think China will just keep paying the Talibans to get their rare-earth metals and stay out of Afghanistan militarily.
@@RaDeus87 Who knows what the future will bring? Currently China has no known plans to invade or interfere militarily, but in 10 years? 20 years? 50 years? Time will tell.
Those who forget History are bound to repeat it. No truer example of that than Afghanistan. SSG. U.S. Army (Medically Retired) Infantry / Sniper / SOF Intel (SOT-A), multiple tours including Afghanistan.
The poor peoples of the Central Asia. They've been over-run and invaded since the beginning. The Persians, Greeks, Mongols, Indians, Britain, The Soviets, and finally the Americans have all had a go at occupation. Who's next? Maybe, stay out of Afghanistan. Graveyard of Empire.
Okay, you have me wanting to curse and weep. In 2013, my 30-year-old first-born son was deployed to Shindand Air Base, Herat Province as part of Task Force Granite, 1/214 FA (Georgia Army National Guard). They were under near constant attack from the beginning, but they held on. My son was medevac'd out in June of that year, after a 155 mm artillery round blasted him into the bunker he was shepherding civilians into. They medically retired him, finally, after extensive, exhaustive, and mostly ineffective treatment, in 2015. Meanwhile, the units that replaced the 1/214 held on; and the units that replaced them held on, and so on. Until last month. I don't know exactly when the base fell, but Herat Province was officially in Taliban hands by August 12. So, yeah. I'm right there with you guys who have said this was had to watch.
@@jamesfracasse8178 Thanks for asking. Much of the physical damage done to his knee has been repaired. The TBI still impacts him. He is an asset to those who know and love him.
@@user-qf6yt3id3w Afghans love their God more than we love our God that is the problem. All great civilizations lose their civilization when they lose their God. That is why you're seeing the decivilization of America Faith is everything.
So that's a little chilling - the odd parallel to recent history (by which I mean recent decades, rather than weeks or months). It's amongst the reasons I feel uncomfortable with moves to pull down statues of unpopular figures from history in the attempt to air-brush out a dubious past - If we forget previous mistakes, are we not doomed to repeat them?
Gary Kubodera I know what you mean, and I'm not completely sure I disagree either, which is why I only said I was uncomfortable - I don't know what the right answer is. I do know when I see statues, I don't automatically hold them in the reverence those that erected the statues did, I'm prompted to find out more, but that's just me personally and such statues are in public spaces so maybe they do have to go.... I just don't feel we should pretend they didn't exist for the reason I mentioned.
Billions spent; many killed and more maimed but now the Warhawks are not satisfied with the sudden departure from Afghanistan. Nothing learned from the Russian War there just 40 years ago.
It reminds me of where we live in Northern Arizona. This makes sense they would look similar since our town is essentially on the same lat as Kabul. Our mountains aren't as high but we don't have the benefit of the Indian sub-continent trying to move in. Stay safe...
@@densealloy There's actually a band whose name name I forget that has a song called "Plate Tectonics" with a chorus that goes "there's no way to stop it / plate tectonics...."
gorgeous? Not from what i've seen from the refueling anchors above. The taliban have destroyed the country before we even got there. The mountains are no different than other mountains. They will once again export their jihad at the expense of their own people and continue the feudal system for decades more. Women will be oppressed, other Muslims will be killed because they are the wrong sect, etc etc
Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it. And yet we are so arrogant that we learn nothing, thinking ourselves superior to everyone who came before us.
I remember the National Geographic issue about Afghanistan in the 70s (the one with the famous pic of the blue-eyed Afghan girl). It talked about how the country had never been successfully invaded despite many hundreds of years of attempts. If I remember correctly the international attitude back then was to be quite happy that they got the tribes to allow people to pass by on the paved highway...
Read Lord Roberts of Kandahar who led the second Afghan war. Get in and get out quick never plan to stay. The answers always lie in the past history Unfortunately todays politicians aren't taught this when they do their mickey mouse degrees. Hence the lessons learned are ignored and the mistakes made once agin.
These events were fictionalized in the novel FLASHMAN by George MacDonald Fraser where the sole survivor was Harry Flashman who returned to England as a hero even though he had survived through cowardice, which was his most common trait in the Flashman novels, which were essentially historical satires.
Iran had a democratically elected leader who wanted to nationalize the oil industry there, and so the CIA orchestrated a coup and installed Shah Reza Pavlavi, whose secret police used torture and "disappearances" to keep the public in line. This set the stage for hardline religious clerics to gain power and foment revolution. Iran would likely be a very different place today if the US hadn't interfered.
What people don't understand is that many of these countries are victims of imperialism. Yet people are calling them backwards and such. Well, when Iran was given their independence they wanted to vote for a Social Democratic leader who would nationalize the oil in his country. The Europeans did not like that and Eisenhower got the CIA to topple him and put the Shah in power. That is just one example of many in that part of the word, there had been plenty of times when these nations wanted to modernize. But because that modernization came in the way of NATO's capitalist agenda, these leaders needed to be stopped. The plight of these nations today, are of the fault of the imperialist nations and always will be.
@@dwlopez57 What buddies though? Afghanistan did nothing to us. A terrorist nation made up of different men from different parts of the world attacked us. They just happen to use Afghanistan as a base of operations. Terrorist groups rarely have a country of their own to fall back on, with the exception of a few cases. Al Qaeda was meant to be more international compared to the more national Taliban.
Akbar Khan likely had little control over other Afghans, for centuries the country has not really been a nation, more a collection of tribes and villages ruled by their local head man. It isn't really much different today as even the Taliban may discover. The British East India Company was arrogant and only really interested in playing politics if it made them a profit, otherwise they were frequently brutal with native populations, the Sepoy Mutiny was exacerbated by the B.E.I.co and is what led to the British government taking direct control of India.
Me, just before I click the button; "why the hell would I want to know about (fill in the blank) anyway?" Me, three minutes into the episode: "OH MY GOD, I had NO IDEA this happened! Why didn't I learn about this in school?!?!??"
I believe it was Michener in his book “Caravans,” who said that life in Afghanistan was so harsh that if an Afghan child survived to age seven nothing would stop him but a bullet.
What a wonderful storyteller you are. Your knowledge of the subject matter, coupled with your tone and inflection of voice make listening to these vignettes an absolute treat.
Ive gott a inocent question. Did the taliban kick the united states military out of afghanistan? I thought we won that war and we were occupying it. I hate the news its all jaded. Please. I dont know.
Here is another example of the adage: those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it ... or some such saying. I am always interested in the hubris of empires, convinced they can march into somebody else's territory and take over. Well done, as always. Thank you Team THG.
Waterloo was in 1815 wasnt it? Also you neglected to mention the one of the conditions of the "Afghan Defense" was that the Brits were made to surrender most of their guns
@@TheHistoryGuyChannel thanks as always for illuminating the past! Did the British have such fun during the First Anglo-Afghan war that they felt it necessary to repeat the experience? Please help us remember the Second Anglo-Afghan war; I'm sure it is a riveting story.
@@traceythompson1092 we might well have an episode on the Second Anglo-Afghan war, which, with the notable exception of not losing a whole army, definitely was reminiscent of the first.
@@BigM94sqd The First and Second Anglo-Afghan Wars both ended badly for Great Britain in the nineteenth century and the Soviet-Afghan War disastrously for the Soviet Union in the twentieth century…but for the U.S. in the twenty first century ‘It must be different!’ Why must that be? The impossibility of winning, and the impossibility of acknowledging we couldn’t win followed the same pattern as Great Britain and the Soviet Union. This can never be acknowledged by current political class critics after twenty years of lies. It can’t be said by the diplomats like Wolfowitz and Rice, and certainly not by the wave of retired generals on news programs who now hold boutique positions at military contract firms, or are principals in their own contract companies, who benefited from keeping the U.S. in Afghanistan.
I always imagined that when the Brits decided to go to war in Afghanistan alongside the US, there was one absolutely ancient old backbench MP who just asked "pardon me... but are we doing this AGAIN? As in a fourth time?"
LOL.
This actually happened, many questioned the logic behind it in the Commons the Lords and the general public, we knew it wouldn't end well. US intelligence wanted to go over all the information the British had about our previous wars and conflict in Afghanistan, but were satisfied "modern strategies" would be able to break a tribal society....
I wouldn't be satisfied unless his monocle popped out
Forgive me for my lack of historical knowledge. I am aware of only three - the one mentioned here, the Soviet attempt starting in 1979, and the one which just ended.
Could you elaborate on what you said was the FOURTH attempt?
@@gregparrott the Brits went to war with Afghanistan three previous times. The first Anglo-Afghan war was 1839-42, the second was 1878-80, and the third was in 1919.
I remember studying all this when I was deployed in Afghanistan in 2007 as a young 20yr old. Gave me a much greater appreciation of the region
It's well over 100 years before I was there, and I can't watch it past three minutes.
I was in country 07. Where where you battle? FOB Blessing here.
Thank you for your service. Too bad our generals didn’t learn as much as you did.
Well and truly "history that deserves to be remembered".
Thank you for your service.
We’re just the latest in a long line of governments that decided to declare themselves the winners and go home (to coin a Bill Mauldin phrase). Central Asia / Afghanistan= the graveyard of Empires! No reason we shouldn't have seen this coming, or learn from the Soviets before us. And the British Empire before them. Or the Sikhs before that, Timur Persians before that, Mughals of India, Genghis Khan, the Arab caliphate Umar, Alexander the Greek, the Indian Maurya... 🤔 🤷♂️
There's no mystery as to why it's a country impossible to maintain control over, there is no country. Any conqueror has to first unite hundreds of tribes, separated by vast swaths of desert and mountains and beliefs. Afghanistan isn't the home of the finest fighters the world has ever seen, it simply doesn't exist but on paper.
@@jerimiahstephens8580 exactly. First rules of warfare - know your enemy and know the terrain.
I note the Chinese are thinking of economic ties with Afghanistan . Given the Chinese reported treatment of their islamic areas that might not go well
I wouldn’t say caliphate Umar was unsuccessful though
Since they DID NOT fight a long campaign in Afghanistan (they went there only after the Sassanids were defeated)
Also the very obvious signs of that the Muslims won can be seen today in Practically 98 percent of Afghanistan is Muslim
The First Anglo-Afghan War…the Second…and the Third.
As a member of the Taliban said, “You have all the clocks, but we have all the time.”
They were quoted that in 2008...I recall them saying that when I left there from my deployment.
@@Nperez1986 Read the Afghanistan Papers
The same resolve was iterated in Vietnam. The question was not how long the NVA/VC would fight - it was how long America/RVN was willing to fight.
Amen!
time runs out for everyone eventually
Only the names and dates have changed to protect the guilty.
Law and order reference?
Arrest, Interrogate, and Indict For 9/!! War Crimes & Crimes Against Humanity:
Susan Rice Larry Silverstein Frank Lowy Ronald Lauder Lewis M Eisenberg Jules Kroll Jeremy Kroll Jerome Hauer Kobi Alexander Sivan Kurzberg Paul Ellner Omer-Marmari Michael Goff James Schlesinger Dov Zakheim Judge Michael B Mukasey Judge Alvin Hellerstein Kenneth Feinberg Ben Chertoff Michael ChertoFf Paul Kurzberg Yaron Schmuel Oded Ellner Sheila Birnbaum Stehen Cauffman Philip Zelikow Henry Kissinger George W. Bush Dick Cheney Donald Rumsfeld Condoleezza Rice Paul Wolfowitz L. Paul Bremer Richard Perle Elliot Abrams Nicole Wallace Douglas Feith Ari Fleischer General Richard Myers General Ralph Eberhart OTS Agent Bennette Marc Grossman David Frum Jack Abromoff Shyan Sunder Collin Powell Tony Blair Barrack Obama Hillary Clinton Joe Biden Donald Trump And ... Benjamin Netanyahu!
THIS MEANS THAT NO BODY HAS LEARND A SINGLE THING TIME AND AGAIN .
It’s not about learning. It’s about ego, money and power. Think how much the military industrial complex made over 20 years.
I think the best thing I heared about Afghanistan is: There are families, that sitting at the same spot since nearly 200 years and shot with the same rifle at anyone with an uniform. Only thing changing is the color.
Each war had completely different reasons and objections soooo
@@Historyfreak-f7o Bingo! Look at how the MIC forced Biden to backhole our centuries old ally, France. It's all about the Benjamins. The MIC owns us and our treasury.
@@kayzeaza I read Churchills’s diary of his experience in Afghanistan. Yes we have learned nothing.
A lesson to generals: do not occupy Afghanistan. It’s not worth it.
Also, don't start at the bottom when invading Italy.
The lesson should be applied to the politicians who put the generals and armies there.
China will be next. 15 - 20 if not sooner.
One of the classic blunders. Never get involved in a land war in Asia.
@@ScumfuckMcDoucheface "don't start at the bottom when invading Italy."
Its worked plenty of times.
Fun Fact: in the original Victorian Sherlock Holmes stories Holmes meets Dr. Watson on his return from Afghanistan. In the latest modern day Sherlock Holmes TV shows Sherlock meets Dr. Watson on his return from Afghanistan.
Sadly I suspect it won't be the last time a new modern SH reboot has Dr Watson returning from a war in Afganistan. Generation after generation refuse to learn from history.
This was an 1878-9 Afghan War.
There is nothing factual about that. It is Fiction
@@MikeSmith-nx4ct Most people would know that, of course, the books and TV show are fiction...I thought that would go without saying. What is a fact is that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wrote that Dr Watson had just returned from Afghanistan as the war was contemporary to the stories - and in the current TV show they have Dr Watson just returning from Afghanistan as it is, once again contemporary.
Yeah, that was not a coincidence.
A lesson to be learned, you can’t modernize or govern people who don’t want it
Such change, which is largely a function of culture, generally happens from within. No modern day polity is the result of someone outside forcing them to embrace Democracy. Rather treaties, with the right local men placed to govern might just have a desirable outcome, as was the case with Japan.
The aim wasn't modernisation
Maybe the real lesson is that you shouldn't try... not your business.
@@restey5979 Exactly. Stay home and out of other people's countries. Start with that.
As a disabled US Army Veteran, the US has "cowboyed up" around the world for the last 100+ years. We here in the US have this arrogance in thinking that our way is the best way.. The reality is there are places in the world that do not want the same type of lifestyle we have here in the "Western" part of the world... Afghanistan is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Remember to thank a veteran the next time you see one..they and their families will carry this weight of that decision as the days go on. Just being honest..🤔
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f*** things up." - Barack Obama, on Joe Biden's qualities.
ABSOLUTELY!
Thank you for your service.
Aussie Jeff Moore
@@jeffmoore2351 thanks for your kind words.. Stay safe!
@Robert Sears 😃😆🤣
well, it's not called "The graveyard of empires" for no reason.
Its still wrong for the taliban to force thier religous views on other people. And they need to be stopped.
@@aprylrittenhouse4562 As a disabled US Army Veteran, the US has "cowboyed up" around the world for the last 100+ years. We here in the US have this arrogance in thinking that our way is the best way.. The reality is there are places in the world that do not want the same type of lifestyle we have here in the "Western" part of the world... Afghanistan is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Remember to thank a veteran the next time you see one..they and their families will carry this weight of that decision as the days go on. Just being honest..🤔
@@aprylrittenhouse4562 I agree but do you know how many people in Afghanistan support the Taliban?
A lot!
We here in America asked for it trying to nation-build with Neoliberals pushing PC and Woke thinking on the majority of the nation. If we just stuck to destroying international terrorism that was using Afghanistan as a training base we would have just done fine.
All that effort and treasure spent for 20 short years of artificial peace.
Well back to the drawing board.🤔
Unbelievably timely reminder of the two maxims: "Those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it" and "Never get involved in a land war in Asia"! Thanks for reminding us so brilliantly about history we need to remember... so we ( hopefully ) won't repeat it.
That's exactly how I felt that day! I KNEW Bush and his cronies would use 9-11 as an opportunity to make a mark in the history books as well as make themselves rich(er)!
Now, after 20 years it's someone else's turn! Remember there's all those Opium plants still over there that deserve to be "liberated"!
Douglas McArthur, U.S. ARMY said that.
I remember reading "Travels into Bokhara" by Sir Alexander Burnes. This was in the '80s, when the Soviets were in Afghanistan. Burnes was assassinated in 1841 in Kabul with his younger brother, Charles.
Afghanistan, where Empires go to die... Alexander the Great failed and his empire soon collapsed, the British failed and decades later their empire collapsed, Soviets failed and the USSR collapsed, US failed and here we are now. Next?
Alexander's Empire did not fail in Bactria (aka Afghanistan)...it was actually the last Greco kingdom funny thing.
That's why everyone after them had a hard time...you have descendants of the silver shields and Alexander's Army defending their land
"Ghost Wars" by Steve Collins is an excellent history of our proxy war against the Soviets, and the Afghan Civil War that followed after the Soviets were defeated.
The British Empire would endure for another century after this. The Angol-Afgan Wars had no bearing on the Empire's fate, it is a misnomer.
It’s China’s bite at the apple, now. Bets on success?
@@Nperez1986 this is something that should be taught more widely... what the Pashtun gene stock actually is, at least some of it. I only learnt about it very recently myself.
America: “I had the worst retreat from Afghanistan!”
Soviet Union: “No, I did!”
(?): Amateurs.
America: “What did you say, punk?!”
Britain: “Amateurs!”
both wrong, England did. At least some Russians and Americans came back home in one piece
@@trescatorce9497
I know.
I was just making a dark joke.
@@trescatorce9497 And some came home is pieces and some came home in body bags. There is little to no consolation in saying some came home in one piece. In fact saying that is a cruel barb to those wounded and to their families, and to the families of those who died. I suggest you think carefully of how your words may sound and be taken by those hurt by the Soviet and the American folly of fighting in Afghanistan before you commit them to public viewing.
@@notapplicable531 I meant to say that they were not hurt, physically of course. The minds of ALL of them will be forever affected. As for my so called lack of tact and/or poor choice of words, tell that to the politicians of any country guilty of sending young people into a meat grinder. Their words are much more damaging
@@notapplicable531 There was nothing disrespectful or cruel in Luis Messina's comments. If his words offended any Soviets or Americans it is because their experience was distorted by actually being there. Their service is respected and appreciated and Messina did nothing to dishonor that service. Afghanistan has proven to be a quagmire for all who venture into it. Messina was simply conveying the degrees to which it has been a quagmire to all.
Really enjoyed this episode but I wouldn’t describe it as “forgotten history”…just ignored history, time and time again.
The current US military commanders sure did forget that time in history.
Wouldn't that apply to the whole channel though? With the exception of archeological discoveries, truly forgotten history tends to stay that way.
@@zachmiller9175 Im not so sure. I think Lance (my new favourite history teacher) brings us a ton of great and singular stories which, due to the passage of time do get forgotten. Some though, like Afghanistan invasions, are truly instances of history that is bound to result in similar outcomes.
All we had to remember was Charlie Wilson's War.
Those that don't learn from history are bound to repeat it
My daughter worked in Afghanistan for nearly 10 years, by shear luck she headed to the states for some dental work the Sunday before the collapse. Anyway, regarding bribes, she said that they should be paid at the lowest level, in cash and on time, failure to do so will increase the amount and move payments to the next highest authority. Never get to the highest level. If one gets to the highest level, they like the mob, will own you.
Yah - all the problems there are from the corruption of the people there - no way to get around that -
Battle of Waterloo was on 15th June 1815; Elphinstone was Lieutenant Colonel of the 33rd Regt. of Foot being awarded a CBE for his actions. The 33rd (1st West Riding of Yorkshire) Regt. of Foot was the 'old' command of Sir Arthur Wellesley while in India. The regiment, like Elphinstone, served throughout the Peninsular War.
History guy w/a miss w/1813
You both missed it was June 18th 1815
@@stevec7770 but history guy said"1813" & original commentary was off by 3 days(I myself,never qualified it)🤠
@@curtiskretzer8898 meant HG and OP
@@stevec7770 yeah,but 4 a History Guy subscriber,I was remiss in researching & posting.Props 2 u 4 going there!🤠
It makes one wonder how many more times we will see different nations in Afghanistan.
Chinese can have a go.
China seems to want to make a go of it. I wonder who will try after them.
@@1977Yakko China just wants them to not radicalize Muslim populations in China.
There is nothing there to fight for. No resources. It is always a puzzle why humans will fight over a piece of land.
(if they have oil? OK. I get it.)
@@Redmenace96 Supposedly there's a lot of Lithium in Afghanistan but I'm not sure if that's true or not. Then there's the poppy fields.
Have to admit when the Taliban promised "safe withdrawl from Kabul" this was what was going through my mind. There were plenty of stories from the time that suggested that it was a deliberate plan by Akbar Khan and afterall if he had been negotiating in good faith then why did he take the officers captive. During the ambushes he was reporteed to have shouted "spare them" in Persian and "kill them" in Pashtun.
There were bodies on the streets before we finished pulling out. Anyone who thought the Taliban weren’t going to take out their perceived enemies is an idiot
People in most countries and especially that region don't take kindly to foreign occupiers.
UK had no business being there to begin with.
@پیاده نظام خان Have you seen the video too?
Akbar Khan was a hero.
Vietnam in 1956: "These people are trampling our right to self-determination of government!"
Afghanistan: "Third or fourth time?"
History deserves to be remembered...
And war never changes.
Only the means to increase the expediency of war changes.
This message falls on deaf ears of 🇺🇲Armed Forces
that could have benefited from the hearing of it
(but who gives a💩about that?)
@@curtiskretzer8898 blame our so-called leaders, not our troops.
@@wolfsmith2865 would be nice if our political "leaders" and our military generals would have to divest their stock ownership from our war machine. hahah what a world that would be
Hey I’ve gotten word from a settlement that needs your help, I’ll mark it on your map. 😉
History deserves to... no, MUST BE Remembered, especially by leaders who want to "intervene" in places they don't really belong. Otherwise all we do is repeat history again and again...
Except that's not what America was doing in the country.
Unfortunately those "leaders" are puppets to their master string-pullers who stay out of sight, making all the money, and letting everyone else get the shaft.
@@thetruth-hl7ct Try telling that to the innocent men, women and children killed and wounded in ANY such invasion. They don't KNOW the reasons WHY...all they do is DIE.
@@lelandframe1029 How does that change the fact that America didn't enter Afghanistan for the reasons OP suggested?
@@thetruth-hl7ct Apparently you didn't learn from History, either.
I enjoyed this video completely. Very timely considering the American recent retreat from Afghanistan.
I knew of the British involvement there but you have totally schooled me on the subject.
If we fail to learn the lessons of history we are destined to repeat them. And we did as did the Soviets.
THAT....IS another thing that is SO Frustrating and Enraging!!! Churchill was there as a reporter and did great Reportage and Analysis of the Culture,which IS still pretty much the SAME in the rural areasTODAY. AND...The Marines apparently FORGOT the lessons of the Beirut Barracks Bombing!!! ASTOUNDING !!!
Ghengis Kahn, Xerxes of Persia, Alexander the Great, Imperial Russia
and the British Empire at it’s peak all failed to subdue the people of Afghanistan. Then Soviet Russia and now the United States.
Perhaps we should leave them alone.
@@brookeshenfield7156 Bruh, the US, USSR and GB all successfully conquered and held an isolated and mountainous region sometimes thousands of miles across the globe for decades.
@@firstduckofwellington6889 …and all were driven out defeated in the end.
Your point, Bruh?
@@brookeshenfield7156 They controlled an area halfway across the globe
with relatively minimal military assets for several decades, how is that not a success
I would highly recommend the novel of M.M. Kaye "Far Pavillons". Even though it is essentially a fiction novel, the realities of the time are portrayed with admirable fidelity and both the history of the British army massacre in 1842 and the British residence massacre in Kabul in 1879 are reported there in detail. In my opinion had Breshnev and Bush read this novel, they would never ever invade Afghanistan.
If only they might have. Brezhnev was in a vegetative state by the time of the Afghan invasion and Bush was enamored with Tom Brokaw's novel, The Greatest Generation, which convinced him Afghanistan should become a prosperous liberal democracy after the war, like Germany or Japan. Thus neither was open to persuasion.
@@kc4cvh It seems like Bush didn't realize that Afghanistan didn't have much of an industrial industry to rebuild as Germany and Japan had.
I thought they taught history at West Point. Or were our generals all sick that day for 20 years?
They are teaching Leftist crap, instead of tactics.
@@DT-sb9sv Not at West Point…
Arrest, Interrogate, and Indict For 9/!! War Crimes & Crimes Against Humanity:
Susan Rice Larry Silverstein Frank Lowy Ronald Lauder Lewis M Eisenberg Jules Kroll Jeremy Kroll Jerome Hauer Kobi Alexander Sivan Kurzberg Paul Ellner Omer-Marmari Michael Goff James Schlesinger Dov Zakheim Judge Michael B Mukasey Judge Alvin Hellerstein Kenneth Feinberg Ben Chertoff Michael ChertoFf Paul Kurzberg Yaron Schmuel Oded Ellner Sheila Birnbaum Stehen Cauffman Philip Zelikow Henry Kissinger George W. Bush Dick Cheney Donald Rumsfeld Condoleezza Rice Paul Wolfowitz L. Paul Bremer Richard Perle Elliot Abrams Nicole Wallace Douglas Feith Ari Fleischer General Richard Myers General Ralph Eberhart OTS Agent Bennette Marc Grossman David Frum Jack Abromoff Shyan Sunder Collin Powell Tony Blair Barrack Obama Hillary Clinton Joe Biden Donald Trump And ... Benjamin Netanyahu!
@@DT-sb9sv You wouldn't know what leftism is if it slapped you in the face.
@@rivera229 Sure Troll. My family escaped communist Slovakia. The DC beltway and MSM is looking more and more like the 1950's style communism.
Alexander’s mother Olympias wrote him a letter once, getting on his case for taking so long to knock off these primitive, poverty-stricken Afghans. So Alexander captured three tribal chiefs and sent them back to Macedonia, each one carrying an offering of soil from his own tribal homeland; they were supposed to deliver these tokens to Olympias as a gift from her son. But waiting outside the queen’s palace door, the three chiefs got into a fight and killed one another. Alexander’s Mom wrote back: ‘Now I understand, my son.’
from Paul Gross’ 2016 film ‘Hyena Road’
Beautiful.
@@WildBillCox13 I can’t take credit, I filched that from Paul Gross’ 2016 film ‘Hyena Road’. I recommend that picture if you haven’t seen it, and even more so ‘Passchendaele’.
"Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose" The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Yes, we got it
@@jeffreyadams648 I detect sarcasm. If I'm wrong I'm sorry. If I'm correct, 21 likes would seem to imply that everyone is not as erudite as you.
Peace and Love tk
*gravelly voice* "Memes. Memes never changes."
As a U.S. Army infantryman (B Co. 1/502) during the late unpleasantness, you'd think we would learn. . .
In high school in the ‘70s, I read “Flashman,” which described the 1842 Afghan expedition and it’s fate. When the US invaded 20 years ago, I dreaded what might become of our troops. I was told I didn’t know what I was talking about when I warned people that we needed to stay out of Afghanistan. I regret to say I was right. Had we not had the airport, it could have been truly disastrous. Will China will be the next victims to not remember history? It’s their turn.
Thank you for this timely, interesting history.
They will throw masses of bodies at it too.
Long live Harry Flashman.
Only way China cares to get involved militarily is if attacks are launched against them from bases in Afghanistan. Other than that, China doesn't judge. Taliban can do WHATEVER it wants inside Afghanistan. Remember all the people criticizing the US for getting into bed with less-than-desirable partners during the cold war? Look at who the USSR (and now China) are friends with. The major difference is that citizens are allowed to criticize the US. That doesn't happen un USSR/Russia or in China. That says something.
@@Kilkenny1923 - Harry Flashman is who you see when thinking of a snooty, Victorian, English cad. What a character!
I was wondering when someone was going to mention George MacDonald Fraser's "Flashman." :) I read the whole series and highly recommend it.
I had the same concerns throughout our stay in Afghanistan. I knew we'd never "modernize" the Afghans, but I was hoping we'd at least avoid a tragic "Retreat From Kabul 2.0."
A relative, Lt Henry Bazett 5th Light Cavalry was there and killed 12 Jan 1842. History is closer than one thinks!
I kinda miss Afghanistan. I haven't heard an IED level explosion since 2012. Also miss the kids throwing rocks at your guard tower post. Or watching the old guy across the street, through your nvg's, at night, walking outside, lifting his man dress, and drop a decent in the dirt. Ahhhh yes, good times!
Oh the "good" old days
@@nickverbree A friend on mines was in Vietnam. While on guard duty he wasn't supposed to fire first at anyone trying to sneak in. He would use his night vision equipment, not as nice as the modern stuff, but he would shoot the sappers trying to sneak in. The VC would retrieve the bodies and he would write in his report that "Warning shots were fired". My friend took no chances as those VC sappers could crawl through the concertina wire barriers.
@@Rhaspun yeah, ROEs could be a big hindrance. We had many an in theatre debate about whether or not a motorcycle was a big enough threat to fire a warning shot at.
Guess Afghani 'leaders' are no better at keeping their word these days than they have been in over a couple hundred (or more) years.
So-called 'Civilised' Western Democracies have not proved themselves to be any better.
This is a large part of the first Flashman book. Decision making paralysed by a decrepit and ineffectual elderly leader.
I'm glad someone mentioned that - Flashman escaped as well, so there were 2 survivors. George McDonald Fraser (RIP) is a brilliant storyteller, and his novels about Flashman are historically correct, with Flashman inserted, and used to explain hitherto unexplained circu,stances! They are also very entertaining! Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe novels are similarly correct.
So basically, this region has been being fought over since before Rambo even showed up!?
Wtf you think Rambo barely wanted to go there. He went to save the colonel.
"Nation building" is a waste of time in a place where the mentality of the inhabitants has not changed in a thousand years.
Where Nations Go to Die.
I wonder if you're not blaming the wrong people. I heard that a large part of the money and arms that we gave for the arming and rebuilding of Afghanistan went no where good. And further, a lot of our contractors who were responsible for carrying on this work didn't care about anything as long as the money flowed,
Actually, the mentality has changed. Did you not see thousands of people trying to get out of there? It only takes one cook to spoil the stew, so to speak. Similar challenges exist, for instance, in Cuba. Lots of Cubans want a free Cuba, but the Communist dictatorship refuses to let go. At this point, it just looks like stubbornness gets in the way, b/c things haven't gotten better in Cuba for decades. Power, no matter how poor, just doesn't let go.
I guess those afghan soldiers either wanted to live under taliban rule or were just scared and threw down their arms.At this point I hope US changes it outlook on that
We seem incapable of "nation building". Not surprising, since we seem to be doing a lousy job of it at home. But it appears that we may have culturally Westernized much of the urban population. Kabul has well over 4 million inhabitants. It would be pretty hard to turn the calendar back on that completely. It should be interesting.
Greedy old men with poor judgement should be on the front line
Harry Flashman also survived the retreat from Kabul....he later went on to a brilliant military career, including winning the Victoria Cross.
This isn't the first time THG has forgotten to mention Sir Harry in one of his episodes....
Best way to learn history - Flashy taught me well.
☺️☺️
Flashy didn't get away scot free though. He had plenty of scars on his back, for his troubles.
"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains,
jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains and go to your gawd like a soldier."
---Rudyard Kipling
This is a reference the Afghan habit of castrating enemy injured. Which continues to this day.
Thank you, I came to make the same comment.
@@user-qf6yt3id3w I've read that Soviet POWs were sometimes sodomized by the Afghan insurgents. Brrrrrrr!
So the can kill each other
@@blank557 This was routine. From 'Charlie Wilson's War'
Their idea was to encourage Soviet officers and soldiers to defect to the mujahideen. As [CIA chief Gust] Avrakotos derisively describes it, “The muj were supposed to set up loudspeakers in the mountains announcing such things as ‘Lay down your arms, there is a passage to the West and to freedom.'” Once news of the program made its way through the Red Army, it was argued, there would be a flood of defectors.
….Avrakotos thought [Oliver] North and Perle were “cuckoos of the Far Right”….”What Russian in his right mind would defect to those fuckers all armed to the teeth?” Avrakotos said in frustration. “To begin with, anyone defecting to the Dushman would have to be a crook, a thief, or someone who wanted to get cornholed every day, because nine out of ten prisoners were dead within twenty-four hours and they were always turned into concubines by the mujahideen. I felt so sorry for them I wanted to have them all shot.”
The meeting went very badly indeed. Gust accused North and Perle of being idiots….Avrakotos thought that would be the end of the…idea, but he greatly underestimated the political power and determination of this group, who went directly to Bill Casey.
….In spite of the angry complaints, Clair George and everyone else on the seventh floor agreed with Avrakotos’ position. He says that Director Casey even privately told him, “I think your point is quite valid. What asshole would want to defect to these animals?”
But the issue wouldn’t go away. Perle, [Walt] Raymond, and the others continued to insist that the Agency find and send back to the United States the many Russian defectors they seemed to believe…the mujahideen were harboring. They had visions of a great publicity campaign once these men reached America.
….Avrakotos describes what happened next with the kind of pleasure he feels only upon achieving revenge. It had been almost impossible to locate two prisoners, much less two defectors. The CIA found itself in the preposterous position of having to pony up $50,000 to bribe the Afghans to deliver two live ones. “These two guys were basket cases,” says Avrakotos. “One had been fucked so many times he didn’t know what was going on. The other was an alcoholic.”
If we had paid attention to history, we should have conducted a significant punitive campaign in Afghanistan after 9/11, and then left. Staying was a whole heap of nothing.
Read James A Michener’s book “Caravans”. It’s about Afghanistan starting after WWII. Sheds a LOT of light on Afghanistan.
One of my favorite authors.
Thx for that tidbit. Didn’t know M did that one. His others always superfly. Cheers.
Hello all... Which country will invade Afghanistan next? ... good luck, tio Jimmy
Usually it has been one of the most powerful armies of the era. Alexander, British, Russia, US; all powerful, all failed. Next up, China? Powerful, playing in the area. China is the most likely.
@@Echowhiskeyone yup china is probably drawing up invasion plans. It's like Afghanistan exists to be a check on empire, making sure no empire grows to big
@@Echowhiskeyone The Talibans have to do something really dumb to get China to invade.
I think China will just keep paying the Talibans to get their rare-earth metals and stay out of Afghanistan militarily.
@@RaDeus87 Who knows what the future will bring? Currently China has no known plans to invade or interfere militarily, but in 10 years? 20 years? 50 years? Time will tell.
Probably China,they have some ambitious nutjobs over there too.
This story is what George Santayana meant when he wrote (paraphrased) that "Those who ignore history are destined to repeat it".
Someone else (I'm not sure who) said, "History doesn't repeat itself but, it does rhyme".
Those who forget History are bound to repeat it. No truer example of that than Afghanistan.
SSG. U.S. Army (Medically Retired) Infantry / Sniper / SOF Intel (SOT-A), multiple tours including Afghanistan.
Thank you for your service.
How quickly empires forget the lessons of history.
The poor peoples of the Central Asia. They've been over-run and invaded since the beginning. The Persians, Greeks, Mongols, Indians, Britain, The Soviets, and finally the Americans have all had a go at occupation.
Who's next?
Maybe, stay out of Afghanistan.
Graveyard of Empire.
You mention Greeks but Alexander the Great managed to conquer Afghanistan and even found a couple of cities there!
History repeating itself over & over again! Isn't that the definition if insanity?
The only thing that has changed is that the cycles are shorter and closer together.
What’s good for General Dynamics…is good for the USA!
@@danporath536, PCB contaminated New England rivers are good for the USA? /s (GD, and GE, manufactured electrical transformers in the region).
.
A MESSAGE TO EARTH!
I8J6dXEIma5/eb.utuoy
(Url to UA-cam General Strike Video R-e-v-e-r-s-e-d to eve-aid bloc-kage)
Okay, you have me wanting to curse and weep.
In 2013, my 30-year-old first-born son was deployed to Shindand Air Base, Herat Province as part of Task Force Granite, 1/214 FA (Georgia Army National Guard). They were under near constant attack from the beginning, but they held on.
My son was medevac'd out in June of that year, after a 155 mm artillery round blasted him into the bunker he was shepherding civilians into. They medically retired him, finally, after extensive, exhaustive, and mostly ineffective treatment, in 2015.
Meanwhile, the units that replaced the 1/214 held on; and the units that replaced them held on, and so on. Until last month. I don't know exactly when the base fell, but Herat Province was officially in Taliban hands by August 12.
So, yeah. I'm right there with you guys who have said this was had to watch.
Has your son recovered and move on to due good in this world?
@@jamesfracasse8178 Thanks for asking. Much of the physical damage done to his knee has been repaired. The TBI still impacts him. He is an asset to those who know and love him.
@@patpatterson12 I salute your son for his service to the country and bless your family with good fortune for years to come
The return of History Cat!
Looking, as usual, completely disinterested in the proceedings.
“History Cat has better things to do, hooman”
History that deserves to be remembered, history that deserves to be learned.
Very true words.
someone once said "those that do not learn history, are condemned to repeat it
As we left Iraq, the last thing we did was “lessons learned”, or as I call them, lessons documented and ignored.
@Robert Sears ONLY at your peril.
@@trescatorce9497 "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
History =
• Lather.
• Rinse.
• Repeat.
I've heard so many different ways to pronounce Kabul. Even Afghanis seem to all say it differently.
its pronounced sh**sville
Those Brits. in Parliament who were se quick to criticize the US for there withdrawal from Afghanistan obviously don't know their own history.
So for history to fully repeat itself the Empire needs to punish the Afghans and then withdraw. What could possibly go wrong¿
They don't withdraw. Just go back and destroy their crops every year. Just before harvest time by air.
@@uppitywhiteman6797 I've got a nasty feeling the Afghan regime will outlast the Western ones the way things are going.
@@uppitywhiteman6797 That's going to wreck my drug habit.
@@user-qf6yt3id3w Afghans love their God more than we love our God that is the problem. All great civilizations lose their civilization when they lose their God. That is why you're seeing the decivilization of America
Faith is everything.
You should Remember The Flashman papers.... so good & David Case is the best read of any book series
So that's a little chilling - the odd parallel to recent history (by which I mean recent decades, rather than weeks or months). It's amongst the reasons I feel uncomfortable with moves to pull down statues of unpopular figures from history in the attempt to air-brush out a dubious past -
If we forget previous mistakes, are we not doomed to repeat them?
To a point..glorifing and rewriting the Confederate actions is a bit much..they chose to secede...and lost!
Gary Kubodera I know what you mean, and I'm not completely sure I disagree either, which is why I only said I was uncomfortable - I don't know what the right answer is. I do know when I see statues, I don't automatically hold them in the reverence those that erected the statues did, I'm prompted to find out more, but that's just me personally and such statues are in public spaces so maybe they do have to go.... I just don't feel we should pretend they didn't exist for the reason I mentioned.
Billions spent; many killed and more maimed but now the Warhawks are not satisfied with the sudden departure from Afghanistan. Nothing learned from the Russian War there just 40 years ago.
Most fools in politics never remember their history lessons. For the shame of it all.
Most fools in politics never KNOW their history.
Afghanistan is absolutely gorgeous BTW. The mountains are just so, majestic. I’ll never forget my time there.
Amen. The Hindu Kush mountain range northeast of Jalalabad it’s just about the most beautiful place on earth
It reminds me of where we live in Northern Arizona. This makes sense they would look similar since our town is essentially on the same lat as Kabul. Our mountains aren't as high but we don't have the benefit of the Indian sub-continent trying to move in.
Stay safe...
@@densealloy There's actually a band whose name name I forget that has a song called "Plate Tectonics" with a chorus that goes "there's no way to stop it / plate tectonics...."
@@goodun2974 ua-cam.com/video/Mkm-vqkOyUM/v-deo.html
gorgeous? Not from what i've seen from the refueling anchors above. The taliban have destroyed the country before we even got there. The mountains are no different than other mountains. They will once again export their jihad at the expense of their own people and continue the feudal system for decades more. Women will be oppressed, other Muslims will be killed because they are the wrong sect, etc etc
A very timely subject after America's recent retreat and withdrawal.
Thanks for another great episode THG.
You mean, "Biden's debacle". There's a difference.
Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it. And yet we are so arrogant that we learn nothing, thinking ourselves superior to everyone who came before us.
They all went in convinced of their superiority in contemporary arms.
And all have gotten their butts handed to them
Was it during this time that Dr. John Watson served?
I take it new History Cat is a bit attached to you? Very sweet! I bet that takes some of the sting out of the loss of previous History Cat. 💜
He seems to have more than one.
I remember the National Geographic issue about Afghanistan in the 70s (the one with the famous pic of the blue-eyed Afghan girl). It talked about how the country had never been successfully invaded despite many hundreds of years of attempts. If I remember correctly the international attitude back then was to be quite happy that they got the tribes to allow people to pass by on the paved highway...
I saved that issue for the longest time just being mesmerized by her picture.
Sad part of Afghanistan? Not our first rodeo. I was an infant when my parents left Iran. Yeah, this last "withdrawal" kind of strikes a nerve with me.
Just think that the Giants and Djinn aren't the only things to worry about! Damn that Eli!
Giants?
Ya but Eli beat the pats in the superbowl twice.
History sure does rhyme. I love Kipling and The Man Who Would Be King and IF. This is relevant in current events.
Read Lord Roberts of Kandahar who led the second Afghan war. Get in and get out quick never plan to stay. The answers always lie in the past history Unfortunately todays politicians aren't taught this when they do their mickey mouse degrees. Hence the lessons learned are ignored and the mistakes made once agin.
These events were fictionalized in the novel FLASHMAN by George MacDonald Fraser where the sole survivor was Harry Flashman who returned to England as a hero even though he had survived through cowardice, which was his most common trait in the Flashman novels, which were essentially historical satires.
That was, like, 179 years ago. C'mon man!
The Soviet-Afghan War, 24 December 1979 - 15 February 1989
(9 years, 1 month, 3 weeks and 1 day)
Iraq, Iran and all the "Stans" would be better off today had they just been left alone for the last thousand years.
Iran had a democratically elected leader who wanted to nationalize the oil industry there, and so the CIA orchestrated a coup and installed Shah Reza Pavlavi, whose secret police used torture and "disappearances" to keep the public in line. This set the stage for hardline religious clerics to gain power and foment revolution. Iran would likely be a very different place today if the US hadn't interfered.
Not only would they be better off, so would we and the rest of the world.
What people don't understand is that many of these countries are victims of imperialism. Yet people are calling them backwards and such. Well, when Iran was given their independence they wanted to vote for a Social Democratic leader who would nationalize the oil in his country. The Europeans did not like that and Eisenhower got the CIA to topple him and put the Shah in power. That is just one example of many in that part of the word, there had been plenty of times when these nations wanted to modernize. But because that modernization came in the way of NATO's capitalist agenda, these leaders needed to be stopped. The plight of these nations today, are of the fault of the imperialist nations and always will be.
Of course it Afghanistans buddies had left the US alone we never would have gone in
@@dwlopez57 What buddies though? Afghanistan did nothing to us. A terrorist nation made up of different men from different parts of the world attacked us. They just happen to use Afghanistan as a base of operations. Terrorist groups rarely have a country of their own to fall back on, with the exception of a few cases. Al Qaeda was meant to be more international compared to the more national Taliban.
Akbar Khan likely had little control over other Afghans, for centuries the country has not really been a nation, more a collection of tribes and villages ruled by their local head man.
It isn't really much different today as even the Taliban may discover.
The British East India Company was arrogant and only really interested in playing politics if it made them a profit, otherwise they were frequently brutal with native populations, the Sepoy Mutiny was exacerbated by the B.E.I.co and is what led to the British government taking direct control of India.
Me, just before I click the button; "why the hell would I want to know about (fill in the blank) anyway?" Me, three minutes into the episode: "OH MY GOD, I had NO IDEA this happened! Why didn't I learn about this in school?!?!??"
I believe it was Michener in his book “Caravans,” who said that life in Afghanistan was so harsh that if an Afghan child survived to age seven nothing would stop him but a bullet.
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
Afghanistan the graveyard of empire's
So once you hit a million subscribers are you going to do a video on the history of The History Guy 😁
What a wonderful storyteller you are. Your knowledge of the subject matter, coupled with your tone and inflection of voice make listening to these vignettes an absolute treat.
Since Biden was already in congress by then, you'd think he might have learned from history...
Please leave the afghans to find their own future
Being invaded by various world powers is their brand now. Hard to break out of that.
@@sevendeadlychins Best to bottle them up and let them stew in their own juices…
"May God deliver us from the venom of the cobra, teeth of the tiger, and the vengeance of the Afghan."
A poignant reminder of where hubris can lead a nation, thanks HG
Ive gott a inocent question. Did the taliban kick the united states military out of afghanistan? I thought we won that war and we were occupying it. I hate the news its all jaded. Please. I dont know.
A superbly timely bit of history. Well done, sir!
Here is another example of the adage: those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it ... or some such saying. I am always interested in the hubris of empires, convinced they can march into somebody else's territory and take over. Well done, as always. Thank you Team THG.
That is one country I do not miss being in. I spent time all over the country
Most unexpected or eye-opening experience? That is, only if you feel like sharing.
Waterloo was in 1815 wasnt it? Also you neglected to mention the one of the conditions of the "Afghan Defense" was that the Brits were made to surrender most of their guns
Thank you so much History Guy for this concise history lesson! Proving, once again, that times change but human nature doesn't!
We need to B-52 some Round-Up all over those Afghan poppy fields.
Ok China, your turn.
i think the Chinese are smarter than that
@@stinger4712 Hope not! That’d take some of the starch outta them.
The Brits should have asked Alexander the Great how occupying Afghanistan worked out...
Yes
The easiest choice when smashing that like button is The History Guy
You forgot the other survivor of the Kabul retreat. Sir Harry Flashman! 😉
“There is nothing new under the sun.”
Folding smart phones are very new.
Did we remember or learn?
@@ziploc2000
Captain Kirk in Star Trek used them in the 24th century.
@@ziploc2000 ??? Since when? Maybe I'm reading this or of context
@@declanoleary1 what do you think?
Afghanistan is a splendid place to fight a war you have absolutely no intention of winning.
This war gave poor Dr. Watson his limp.
Doyle's characters are set in the 1880s. Dr. Watson was likely injured in the Second Anglo-Afghan war.
@@TheHistoryGuyChannel that’s true! You’re most definitely correct sir
@@TheHistoryGuyChannel thanks as always for illuminating the past! Did the British have such fun during the First Anglo-Afghan war that they felt it necessary to repeat the experience? Please help us remember the Second Anglo-Afghan war; I'm sure it is a riveting story.
@@traceythompson1092 we might well have an episode on the Second Anglo-Afghan war, which, with the notable exception of not losing a whole army, definitely was reminiscent of the first.
@@TheHistoryGuyChannelI await that episode with bated breath.
So discouraging that our fates are, ‘the same as it ever was’.
.
A MESSAGE TO EARTH!
I8J6dXEIma5/eb.utuoy
(Url to UA-cam General Strike Video R-e-v-e-r-s-e-d to eve-aid bloc-kage)
Please consider the history of greeks in current Afghanistan, Greeks after Alexander the great.
When ppl from outside of Afghanistan learn, that you can not rule Afghans.. Not even Afghans can rule Afghans :/
compared to this Biden's retreat was a success
His was a faustian inevitability, damned both ways
@@declanoleary1 he could have followed Trumps plan to the letter and if it went wrong then he could point a finger
@@BigM94sqd
The First and Second Anglo-Afghan Wars both ended badly for Great Britain in the nineteenth century and the Soviet-Afghan War disastrously for the Soviet Union in the twentieth century…but for the U.S. in the twenty first century ‘It must be different!’
Why must that be?
The impossibility of winning, and the impossibility of acknowledging we couldn’t win followed the same pattern as Great Britain and the Soviet Union. This can never be acknowledged by current political class critics after twenty years of lies. It can’t be said by the diplomats like Wolfowitz and Rice, and certainly not by the wave of retired generals on news programs who now hold boutique positions at military contract firms, or are principals in their own contract companies, who benefited from keeping the U.S. in Afghanistan.
@@danporath536 so the yanks as a Nation failed but some came out ahead $$$$$$$$$$
@@BigM94sqd The political class will never admit their lies.
It’s amazing that after all this time we still have not learned from history to stay out of Afghanistan