Fantastic addition to my video. I wouldn't say that I made my Video because of frustration about my own chess career though, since I realized and accepted around five years ago that I won't be making enough to sustain myself, let alone a family by purely playing itself. Therefore I have pursued coaching and content creation more and more and I'm very fortunate to really enjoy it. That's also what I would recommend to people in similar situations, as you pointed out as well. Also wanna mention again, that I'm really grateful for everything, specifically growing up and living in Europe, as everyone here should be. And the example with Uzbekistan might have not been the best one, so thanks for pointing that out as well. Really enjoyed listening and learning from your experience. You explained many things much better than I ever could, so thanks a lot for the great video and for keeping the topic in the public eye! Best, Felix
I know I’ve said this before on your other videos, but I really appreciate how you highlight the harsh realities of life as a professional chess player. There’s a misconception that becoming a grandmaster is the ultimate ticket to success, but the truth is, only a handful of players manage to make a comfortable living purely from playing chess and the competition is getting stronger all the time!
Good video Danny, hope you enjoyed Spain! You played the Sitges last round against IM Lacasa Diaz, a very good friend of mine since childhood. Neither you nor Felix touched on the retirement subject, another thing to factor in as a professional chess player with a relatively short income career. Take care!
BTW I made that comment on Reddit about David Howell. He mentioned this in an interview, I think with Fiona Steil-Antoni. He was in his parents' house during the interview.
In the 1970s when Tony Miles, Ray Keene and Michael Stean became Grandmasters in quick succession, people wondered how English chessplayers had suddenly exploded onto the chess scene. I think it was Miles who explained it by saying that for the first time there was enough money in chess to make it a viable career. He, of course, went on to have a remarkable run of success in tournaments all over the world. (Keene concentrated on writing books and articles at a prodigious rate, while Stean eventually packed it in and became an accountant.) These days, though, you probably have to be ranked in the top twenty or so to make good money from playing in tournaments, and it helps a lot if you are young and good-looking and get a sponsorship deal. Alternatively, you can make a lot of money from UA-cam if you have charisma, a talent for Clickbait headlines, an understanding of what ordinary amateur chessplayers like, and the gift of the gab, like Gotham.
Gotham is not a professional chess player, he is a professional entertainer with a show on UA-cam about chess and the chess world. He makes more money as an entertainer than anyone makes playing chess, except for maybe the top three in the world. Maybe even more than they do.
I didn't say he was a professional chess player, though if you think about it, he is an International Master who makes videos about chess. That's his job. So you could say that he is making money professionally from chess, couldn't you?
Treat the game as a hobby with prizes. The alternative is coaching and running clubs. Chess is growing fast, but is an online based audience. Run clinics and lectures.
I think pushing the content creation side of things should bring in other opportunities if you're willing to do private coaching, as many players would be happy to pay a GM for coaching.
Not trying to be a downer, but why would they after hearing this? To be the best on the bench in the park? It's not like getting music lessons. Even if you won't go the professional musician's route, you can at the very least entertain your guests on occasion or win a heart by playing a music instrument. I doubt there are a lot of girls that will get all excited by seeing you setting figures on the board.
Being a sport professional (chess, snooker, tennis, golf etc.) is tough wherever you live. I wonder how many chess players in India are dreaming to become a super GM (rating higher than 2700)? State incentives just encourage more people to consider a career as a chess professional so the competition in India is a lot tougher than in the UK (a much bigger population also makes the competition more fierce). The Indian government only has a limited budget to support chess and I imagine a lot of GM there are also struggling to make ends meets as well.
If sticking with chess, focus on content creation because: A) there is more money there than in the tournaments halls; B) If successful content creator /Chessable author, it's more likely to get more costumers for coaching, which is another important stream of income in chess C) learn marketing strategies and make your own chess website (increase your presence on the internet, something you already hinted at in the video and in a smart way, to put it the other way)
@TyrannosaurusCHEX as to your comment chex it was not AI that said it or presumably someone asking AI. An IM american player called Alex Battey said that my play was super grandmaster level so my rating of then 1470 FIDE makes no sense, unless i am playing stronger people than they say they are in theyre ratings.
My thoughts - GothamChess is an anomaly, the common content creator is at a disadvantage to get mad popular - AI career, as a smart man, you could consider jumping into an AI career now. It has had a seismic shift with GPT era. Coursera- multi agent systems with crewAI
Clearly not worth pursuing as a career.I think you should consider getting a part-time job that could work around your chess commitments.Also stop going to the bakery and going to restaurants.Supermarkets reduce food heavily later in the day.I think a lot of money would be saved by getting more savvy with your spending..Airbnb is better value generally than hotels.Maybe consider room sharing?
I look at prices for a lot of services and products and chess world, and think how people can make a living doing it. Coaching prices are absurd, and I'm sure some Grandmasters don't maximize the money they can make from it by setting their prices as high as some do. Not saying coaching should be cheap, but rather I think GMs price in relation to other GMs, and not to what would net them the most. And videos on a lot of Chessable courses are priced insanely. There's absolutely no way the prices maximize profits for the course creators.
I don't agree that coaching prices are "absurd." if people are willing to meet that price, why are they "absurd"? bear in mind that grandmasters have to charge a reasonable amount as we probably aren't going to work 40 hours of coaching at that rate like someone would do in a normal job. So our take home pay is less than someone working in a normal job who is doing far more hours, even if their hourly pay might be less. It also depends on your target audience. A lot of people who want coaching come from affluent middle class backgrounds, and they are willing to pay high prices.
@@HometownChessHero It's absurd, because I 100% guarantee if GMs were to sit down with an economist who works with small businesses, the economist could devise better earning plans based on pricing alone without increasing workloads. I'm not looking at this from a chess player's eyes, I'm looking at it from the eyes of a person who majored in economics. Chess educators operate in a really strange manner compared to regular businesses.
There "can" be money if you are an average IM or even FM , but not everyone can abuse the social media algorithms to push themselves into the first spots
This is your second Story on this subject..... Let put it this way... I worked 30 year at 7.25 an hour wage. And I got 3 houses from it. One I live in and 2 I rent out. And the 2 I rent out are in Hawaii
It's not that impossible really, you post all over the internet about how "somebody" mistook you for Bobby Fischer years ago and eventually the fiction becomes the truth because that seems to be the common story the AI bots are reading
Hi Danny. I think you made a wise draw offer at Hastings. £700 is a lot better than £35. I much prefer your honest content to the patronising Gotham. What happened to Agadmator? Anyway I still have that computer, but it's probably not fast enough or new enough for your needs. But it's there if you want it. Your UA-cam seems to be growing at a steady pace. Keep it real, as you are. That's what i like the best. Thanks again. I really hope you find a way to keep doing what you clearly love.
I'm not saying it would solve your money problems, but why are you so pessimistic about getting back over 2500? Is it just that you don't have the time to put in the work?
@HometownChessHero i get the underrated juniors part - i've experienced this at my own much lower level - but what about your age is an issue - energy levels / sustaining focus for many hours? i can see getting somewhat slower at calculating with age, but is it really that much of a problem at classical time controls? and besides i'd have guessed your decades of experience would fully compensate for a moderate loss of speed. i know it's moot financially wrt making a living from tournament prizes as even most 2650+ players struggle, but it seems like it could have direct practical value in terms of commentating/lecture/simul/club league/coaching opportunitues, and also for content creator credibility/success. like, even if you were to then just retire, it seems like it would be financially worth the effort to retire at above 2500. Or am I wrong?
I was over 2500 before and it made very little difference to my income in fact when i was over 2500 i made less money than i do now.. I'm a fairly well known gm and it would not make much difference to my visibility if I was rated 2433 or 2533. As for the possibility of getting there, of course it is possible, but difficult.. Perhaps you could show me an example of a gm around my age or older, who has gained points recently. Most are losing rating, some are losing heavily. It's not as if I'm not winning tournaments or playing badly. In fact it is rating deflation which I mention in the video, which means I'm rates below 2500 now. I'm just as strong if not stronger now than in 2006 when I was rated 2573. I also lack the financial means to play enough tournaments to get back over 2500 again. I would simply have to play a lot, as even one tournament a month probably wouldn't be enough.
@HometownChessHero I see, thank you for elaborating. For sure it makes a lot less sense to try if it would likely make little or no differences for your financial situation.
With the hyperinflation of property values and cost of living crisis it is not just chess but quite a lot of jobs in general are no longer viable as a reliable source of income. In chess terms the main problem is that 90% of tournament organisers are still stuck in the 1970s when it comes to what they consider a good prize - £500 then was enough to comfortably pay your entire month's expenses and have change whereas now it's a joke, pocket change to players who are only entering tournaments at all because they are independently wealthy and don't seem to notice the massive travel costs, food costs, entry costs, accomodation costs etc now make the vast majority of tournaments a zero sum game even for winners. But, on the plus side, you get to play a game for no money and be relatively respected in the community instead of working a thankless miserable minimum wage job that also pays no money.
You don’t live in a democracy, you fool. You live in a dictatorship of the rich, who are squeezing you for every penny. Most governments across the world support Chess. India gives generous bonuses to their chess champions. The USSR managed to rule chess because they fully supported their chess players financially.
Most countries do not support chess. Even those that do, on average they pay close to nothing. Besides India and Uzbekistan, which are probably top 2 countries that support chess, it is not easy to live by competing in chess between 2500 and 2650.
Fantastic addition to my video. I wouldn't say that I made my Video because of frustration about my own chess career though, since I realized and accepted around five years ago that I won't be making enough to sustain myself, let alone a family by purely playing itself.
Therefore I have pursued coaching and content creation more and more and I'm very fortunate to really enjoy it. That's also what I would recommend to people in similar situations, as you pointed out as well.
Also wanna mention again, that I'm really grateful for everything, specifically growing up and living in Europe, as everyone here should be. And the example with Uzbekistan might have not been the best one, so thanks for pointing that out as well.
Really enjoyed listening and learning from your experience. You explained many things much better than I ever could, so thanks a lot for the great video and for keeping the topic in the public eye!
Best,
Felix
no problem! glad you enjoyed it.
I know I’ve said this before on your other videos, but I really appreciate how you highlight the harsh realities of life as a professional chess player. There’s a misconception that becoming a grandmaster is the ultimate ticket to success, but the truth is, only a handful of players manage to make a comfortable living purely from playing chess and the competition is getting stronger all the time!
Good video Danny, hope you enjoyed Spain! You played the Sitges last round against IM Lacasa Diaz, a very good friend of mine since childhood. Neither you nor Felix touched on the retirement subject, another thing to factor in as a professional chess player with a relatively short income career. Take care!
yes was an interesting game and good analysis afterwards. thanks mike.
BTW I made that comment on Reddit about David Howell. He mentioned this in an interview, I think with Fiona Steil-Antoni. He was in his parents' house during the interview.
In the 1970s when Tony Miles, Ray Keene and Michael Stean became Grandmasters in quick succession, people wondered how English chessplayers had suddenly exploded onto the chess scene. I think it was Miles who explained it by saying that for the first time there was enough money in chess to make it a viable career. He, of course, went on to have a remarkable run of success in tournaments all over the world. (Keene concentrated on writing books and articles at a prodigious rate, while Stean eventually packed it in and became an accountant.)
These days, though, you probably have to be ranked in the top twenty or so to make good money from playing in tournaments, and it helps a lot if you are young and good-looking and get a sponsorship deal.
Alternatively, you can make a lot of money from UA-cam if you have charisma, a talent for Clickbait headlines, an understanding of what ordinary amateur chessplayers like, and the gift of the gab, like Gotham.
Gotham is not a professional chess player, he is a professional entertainer with a show on UA-cam about chess and the chess world. He makes more money as an entertainer than anyone makes playing chess, except for maybe the top three in the world. Maybe even more than they do.
I didn't say he was a professional chess player, though if you think about it, he is an International Master who makes videos about chess. That's his job. So you could say that he is making money professionally from chess, couldn't you?
Yes, he's definitely a professional chess player.
Treat the game as a hobby with prizes. The alternative is coaching and running clubs. Chess is growing fast, but is an online based audience. Run clinics and lectures.
IMHO it's utterly unrealistic to expect making a living out of playing chess.
Unless, of course, if you're Vishy Anand /s
I think pushing the content creation side of things should bring in other opportunities if you're willing to do private coaching, as many players would be happy to pay a GM for coaching.
Not trying to be a downer, but why would they after hearing this?
To be the best on the bench in the park?
It's not like getting music lessons. Even if you won't go the professional musician's route, you can at the very least entertain your guests on occasion or win a heart by playing a music instrument. I doubt there are a lot of girls that will get all excited by seeing you setting figures on the board.
I wonder if you trolling or not
did not know but chess feels really depressing now
Being a sport professional (chess, snooker, tennis, golf etc.) is tough wherever you live. I wonder how many chess players in India are dreaming to become a super GM (rating higher than 2700)? State incentives just encourage more people to consider a career as a chess professional so the competition in India is a lot tougher than in the UK (a much bigger population also makes the competition more fierce). The Indian government only has a limited budget to support chess and I imagine a lot of GM there are also struggling to make ends meets as well.
@@stanleywang8524 yes, but living costs are lower. If you do win prize money in Europe, it goes much further back in India.
If sticking with chess, focus on content creation because: A) there is more money there than in the tournaments halls; B) If successful content creator /Chessable author, it's more likely to get more costumers for coaching, which is another important stream of income in chess C) learn marketing strategies and make your own chess website (increase your presence on the internet, something you already hinted at in the video and in a smart way, to put it the other way)
@TyrannosaurusCHEX as to your comment chex it was not AI that said it or presumably someone asking AI. An IM american player called Alex Battey said that my play was super grandmaster level so my rating of then 1470 FIDE makes no sense, unless i am playing stronger people than they say they are in theyre ratings.
My thoughts
- GothamChess is an anomaly, the common content creator is at a disadvantage to get mad popular
- AI career, as a smart man, you could consider jumping into an AI career now. It has had a seismic shift with GPT era. Coursera- multi agent systems with crewAI
Clearly not worth pursuing as a career.I think you should consider getting a part-time job that could work around your chess commitments.Also stop going to the bakery and going to restaurants.Supermarkets reduce food heavily later in the day.I think a lot of money would be saved by getting more savvy with your spending..Airbnb is better value generally than hotels.Maybe consider room sharing?
I look at prices for a lot of services and products and chess world, and think how people can make a living doing it. Coaching prices are absurd, and I'm sure some Grandmasters don't maximize the money they can make from it by setting their prices as high as some do. Not saying coaching should be cheap, but rather I think GMs price in relation to other GMs, and not to what would net them the most. And videos on a lot of Chessable courses are priced insanely. There's absolutely no way the prices maximize profits for the course creators.
I don't agree that coaching prices are "absurd." if people are willing to meet that price, why are they "absurd"? bear in mind that grandmasters have to charge a reasonable amount as we probably aren't going to work 40 hours of coaching at that rate like someone would do in a normal job. So our take home pay is less than someone working in a normal job who is doing far more hours, even if their hourly pay might be less. It also depends on your target audience. A lot of people who want coaching come from affluent middle class backgrounds, and they are willing to pay high prices.
@@HometownChessHero It's absurd, because I 100% guarantee if GMs were to sit down with an economist who works with small businesses, the economist could devise better earning plans based on pricing alone without increasing workloads. I'm not looking at this from a chess player's eyes, I'm looking at it from the eyes of a person who majored in economics. Chess educators operate in a really strange manner compared to regular businesses.
2600 is no longer impressive. The money is for the top 10-15 players in the world.
Eh Levi, Rosen and Botez etc are doing fine.
@@Randorubbish1531exception doesnt make the rule
there's no money in chess if you are an average GM
There "can" be money if you are an average IM or even FM , but not everyone can abuse the social media algorithms to push themselves into the first spots
@TyrannosaurusCHEX have you watched Felix Blohberger's video? He's rated around 2500, is a top 500 player in the world, and makes very little
This is your second Story on this subject..... Let put it this way... I worked 30 year at 7.25 an hour wage. And I got 3 houses from it. One I live in and 2 I rent out. And the 2 I rent out are in Hawaii
@@Molokaichess it must be my dementia, I've done so many videos I've stsrted repeating the subjects
On the big island, nice
@HometownChessHero no oahu
two people independently have said i am a grandmaster i know this is nuts talk from a 1680 fide
It's not that impossible really, you post all over the internet about how "somebody" mistook you for Bobby Fischer years ago and eventually the fiction becomes the truth because that seems to be the common story the AI bots are reading
Hi Danny. I think you made a wise draw offer at Hastings. £700 is a lot better than £35. I much prefer your honest content to the patronising Gotham. What happened to Agadmator? Anyway I still have that computer, but it's probably not fast enough or new enough for your needs. But it's there if you want it. Your UA-cam seems to be growing at a steady pace. Keep it real, as you are. That's what i like the best. Thanks again. I really hope you find a way to keep doing what you clearly love.
I'm not saying it would solve your money problems, but why are you so pessimistic about getting back over 2500? Is it just that you don't have the time to put in the work?
2500 is possible, but tough due to my age and the number of underrated juniors you face in open events these days.
@HometownChessHero i get the underrated juniors part - i've experienced this at my own much lower level - but what about your age is an issue - energy levels / sustaining focus for many hours? i can see getting somewhat slower at calculating with age, but is it really that much of a problem at classical time controls? and besides i'd have guessed your decades of experience would fully compensate for a moderate loss of speed.
i know it's moot financially wrt making a living from tournament prizes as even most 2650+ players struggle, but it seems like it could have direct practical value in terms of commentating/lecture/simul/club league/coaching opportunitues, and also for content creator credibility/success. like, even if you were to then just retire, it seems like it would be financially worth the effort to retire at above 2500. Or am I wrong?
I was over 2500 before and it made very little difference to my income in fact when i was over 2500 i made less money than i do now.. I'm a fairly well known gm and it would not make much difference to my visibility if I was rated 2433 or 2533.
As for the possibility of getting there, of course it is possible, but difficult.. Perhaps you could show me an example of a gm around my age or older, who has gained points recently. Most are losing rating, some are losing heavily. It's not as if I'm not winning tournaments or playing badly. In fact it is rating deflation which I mention in the video, which means I'm rates below 2500 now. I'm just as strong if not stronger now than in 2006 when I was rated 2573. I also lack the financial means to play enough tournaments to get back over 2500 again. I would simply have to play a lot, as even one tournament a month probably wouldn't be enough.
@HometownChessHero I see, thank you for elaborating. For sure it makes a lot less sense to try if it would likely make little or no differences for your financial situation.
Rooting for ya man! And hopefully people keep watching the youtube and you can start to make some money from ads.
But what will I have to complain about then?
Get over a 1000 subs and over 4000 hours of watch time, im just starting my own chess channel thats how i sorta know lol @HometownChessHero
Your getting there ❤
And hopefully we'll see more great content from you playing games etc, the new Levy Rozman lol you have so much talent being a gm 😊
Complain doh thought you said compliant , sorry
Short answer -No for most people
With the hyperinflation of property values and cost of living crisis it is not just chess but quite a lot of jobs in general are no longer viable as a reliable source of income. In chess terms the main problem is that 90% of tournament organisers are still stuck in the 1970s when it comes to what they consider a good prize - £500 then was enough to comfortably pay your entire month's expenses and have change whereas now it's a joke, pocket change to players who are only entering tournaments at all because they are independently wealthy and don't seem to notice the massive travel costs, food costs, entry costs, accomodation costs etc now make the vast majority of tournaments a zero sum game even for winners.
But, on the plus side, you get to play a game for no money and be relatively respected in the community instead of working a thankless miserable minimum wage job that also pays no money.
What's in the closet Danny?
You don’t live in a democracy, you fool. You live in a dictatorship of the rich, who are squeezing you for every penny. Most governments across the world support Chess. India gives generous bonuses to their chess champions. The USSR managed to rule chess because they fully supported their chess players financially.
Most countries do not support chess. Even those that do, on average they pay close to nothing.
Besides India and Uzbekistan, which are probably top 2 countries that support chess, it is not easy to live by competing in chess between 2500 and 2650.
@@cizmekfran iceland is another one I believe!