The key point and tragedy of The Time Travellers Wife is exactly that - they have no free will to choose each other because time travel shenanigans mean it's already happened
I think the concept of time travelers meeting in the wrong order is really cool, but they never really interacted on screen in a way that felt like they actually liked each other. Just on a basic level
That could have been a good thing if Moffatt had resisted the urge to turn it into some sort of love story. Keep us guessing for a couple of episodes (not dragged out to boredom point) as to whether she's a villain or not, then find out she's just some random time traveller who keeps bumping into him.
That's true, but we have plenty of examples of the doctor having good chemistry with people he's just met, which is how most companions become companions. Most of the time with river, especially in Matt Smith's run, he just seems irritated by her@@gusmonster59
IMO, that is part of the point. They keep meeting in roughly opposite order meaning that almost every time we see them onscreen together, one of them is in love while the other is still warming up to the idea. It's not surprising that they often seemed awkward together. It's a standard tale of a man and a woman slowly growing to love each other over time - except each of them is doing it in the opposite order relative to the other one. :/ (Also IMO a lot of it is down to Eleven being such an awkward manchild. It's hard to believe him as in a mature relationship, regardless of who it's with).
@irrevenant3 You're right, it is a great idea. But in my opinion, for a movie or a mini series, not so great for Dr Who. The romantic entanglement of the Rose and Martha years always seemed out of place to me. Then, trying to develop this sort of love story just got in the way of other stories and is too spread out to be effective. And definitely over as long a period as Moffatt spread it out. It could never work properly with the change of actors in one of the roles, especially as you say, with the main one being a man child.
I feel like the problem is that there was never a romantic story arc. Obviously it would have been different than normal, since River already loves him, but we could have seen the Doctor fall for her
I like the conversation they have in “Angels Take Manhattan” after River breaks her wrist and lies about it. The doctor looks hurt by her joke, and used his regeneration energy to heal her
There were two romantic story arcs, overlaid in different directions. It takes time for the Doctor to genuinely fall for River (the moment Jessica mentions in Angels Take Manhattan is one example) until by the time he's Twelve he is completely in love with her. On the other hand we see River first try to kill the Doctor, decide to save him for a variety of reasons then, over time, grow to become completely in love with him. That the two of them aren't at the same point romantically and emotionally for most of their relationship is a big part of the point.
I found it unconvincing because a lot of River’s values are actually in opposition to the Doctor’s. She doesn’t have the same respect for life and the timeline that he does. Now, Amy and Rory felt like a real love story.
The funny thing is, though I never liked River's storyline as a whole, her first and last appearances are picture perfect to me. Her chemistry with Peter and David is just so electric, you can really feel like she's lived a lifetime with both of them. 11 on the other hand...idk I think Matt Smith's Doctor was at his best when playing an asexual, grandfather character, and his storyline with River was the exact opposite of that.
I definitely see what you mean, but personally I feel like Peter's doctor was much more of the asexual grandfather type than Matt's was, I always felt like he was closer to a naive and innocent child mentality a lot of the time
Yep, were her meeting cappaldi the first time they meet, it would maybe work, and no her being amys and rorys and the tardis child. Too much, way too much moffat. Also like the doctors are basically new persons, rose, had a relationship with 2 doctors only. River could like just be friends with most doctors, .
Moffat really fumbled the bag with rivers character. It feels like everytime she turns up she's less of a real character and more like a plot device. I do love the husbands of river song and feel like that was a great ending for her character. Weird that her best appearances are her first and last
Fun fact: In none of the TV episodes River is in has she passed The Bechdel Test :D [Just one more reason she has never felt like a real character I guess lol. Literally all her screen time is spent with her talking about The Doctor... And that's it :\ ]
To me it’s not that strange. I sing in a choir and our choir director always tells us: the first and last songs of a concert are the most important. Barely anyone will remember the middle bits unless they’re particularly amazing or stand out much, but everyone will remember how it ended. Listeners have to get hooked at the beginning, entertained in the middle, and wowed at the end. It’s not quite the same with stories but to some level you can compare it. River got a banger intro and goodbye and that’s what most casual viewer will remember in the end.
The thing about Moffat is that he's, at heart, a sit-com writer (who can do drama): the relationships he writes are, essentially, sit-com relationships. They do silly, funny, unrealistic things to make you laugh. He's at his best when he's doing couples (the clue's there in the title of his sit-com, "Coupling"). RTD, on the other hand, is a drama writer (who can do comedy). He's at his best when doing familial/intergenerational relationships (Rose and Jackie, for instance, and Donna and Sylvia and Donna and Wilf, ). They ring truer than Moffat's "couples" because they are "drama relationships" rather than "couple comedies".
Yes! See also Moffat's love of "stylised emotion" and motifs, such as someone crying a single teardrop. That just doesn't happen in real life, just for Moffat's characters. Russell's crying characters would have snot all over their faces and mascara everywhere.
All drwho love is 100% love,,.. ok,, so the idea for a drwho fan ,, is to have an in sequence pearing ,, the relationship outcome depends on the audience members own circle of fellow whovians & friends fanfiction,,, ,, so hee it is ,, withover 8 billon years of love storie ,,
I never understood why this pairing has so many fans. There is no chemistry between River and Ten or Eleven. The only episode I really enjoyed with them was River's last episode with Twelve. Also, River lacks depth of character. Her whole personality revolves around being obsessed with the Doctor. Imho she's the blueprint of how not to write a (supposedly) strong female character. We never really see anything to justify why the Doctor loves her. I think there was a lot of potential in that storyline, I just don't think it got anywhere close to it. River/Doctor is the one big thing I actually actively dislike about the Moffat era. It always really annoyed me because it just felt wrong and unbelievable.
Also, totally off-topic, but it was also unbelievable that the River Song character was an archeologist because outside of using those particular skills to essentially stalk the Doctor, we don't really see her have much interest in the things that archeologists would normally have interest in. Like for example, characters like Daniel Jackson from the Stargate franchise & of course Indiana Jones from his franchise, we see them both display clear knowledge, interest, & enthusiasm in their field. But with River, I couldn't believe she was an archeologist through her actions.
imagine writing a couple that not only most of the time seems one-sided and one of them obviously pines for other people, more than he ever did for his so called love interest, not only they don't even have a correct timeline of relationship which get confused and wonder they even met each other properly or not, not only they spend half of the time being enemies. But also the fact that River was the daughter of the couple whom the Doctor could consider as his younger siblings or students, he literally watched her mother's growth. this relationship wasn't just fake, it had all the red flags as well
As an archaeologist, I can tell you that as much as I love the character of Indiana Jones, he is little more than a glorified treasure hunter and professor of ancient history who probably had no time to write grants or papers.
I wish they would have kept with the basic premise of two time travelers passing by each other. None of the tardis baby or religious assassin crap, but the simple and poignant realization that the more the Doctor learns of River, the less River knew about him. It could have been a beautiful and heartbreaking story separate from Amy’s story, but for whatever reason they wanted to shoehorn her into the main storyline instead of letting it stand on its own and it didn’t work.
I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with a storyline about a paradoxical love between two time travelers. There is an almost inherent tragedy to it. The two of them are falling in love in opposite directions, only falling in love with the other because the other loved them first. I just think this interesting storyline loses that interest and becomes bad because Moffat refuses to acknowledge the toxicity of the relationship instead of embracing it as apart of their tragedy. SOMETIMES TOXIC LOVE MAKES SOMETHING INTERESTING. ESPECIALLY in an inherently tragic show like Doctor Who. I also think most of their relationships happening off screen is a detriment. My favorite River song episode is actually “husbands of River Song” with Peter Capaldi. Because you finally have both of them at the end of their timelines with one another. This is the last time River will meet a doctor that knows her, and this is the last time the doctor meets her at all. They are finally on equal playing field with their mutual feelings and it’s also the last time they’ll ever meet. And the Doctor, hating endings, has their last night on a planet on a night that lasts for decades. Drawing out their final goodbye. So when river meets him at the library and she talks about the singing towers, she’s not talking about a night. She’s talking about a period of a decade they likely lived together. River and the Doctor loved each other, but they loved each other off screen and I think that was a major mistake in getting people invested.
The singing towers were like the honeymoon/golden years that they didn’t get to get because their timelines were out of sync. In my mind, they worked the best when they were at similar points in timeline (middle of the series/about halfway for both of them, or at the end when they finally sync up). River has a catalog of all of the doctors faces, so I think she was prepared to meet a doctor that wasn’t familiar with her. There was so much missed opportunity to have the wackyness of their dynamic with 11 mature into a real romance arc with 12
omg, I've never been able to fully explain why these two never clicked for me (though I mostly chalk it up to not liking Moffat's writing as showrunner in general and finding River's whole arc really confusing and overly-convoluted) but you made some really great points and put a lot of subconscious thoughts of mine into words!
Finally, someone said it. I was 17 when I first watched "Doctor Who". After first introduction of River, I thought: "Wow, The Doctor will have a wife! Sounds interesting, I can't wait!" And then they married to save the Universe, so their marriage is like fictitious, and there is no genuine love from him. That was disappointing. But last 5 years I've been watching a lot of Doctor Who content with different takes on their relationships, and no one expressed an opinion close to mine, so I just got confused. Like they love each other, it doesn't seem like they do, but they do, probably, I dunno... Thank you for helping me make up my mind about it. I'm back to what I thought at 17
I think "River's" Doctor, the one that actually loved her, was Capaldi's 12th Doctor. 11 just seemed confused outside of the times he was implying banging her at night when she isn't in her cell >_>
I'm a fan of River, but I agree with your video. I've been revisiting River Song and the 11th Doctor's run. My take on it is that they begin their relationship as a sort of obligation, the Doctor knows that he means something important to River, but because of them meeting out of sync he doesn't know why or how yet. I don't think that they actually grew to actually love each other until Darillium. I think the whole point of the ending is that until they actually had time together they went from feeling like they're supposed to care for each other to actually caring for each other.
100% agree! at the start, it’s obviously pretty messed up, but i think the show doesn’t really… deny it? like it’s quite clear how messed up it all is 😅😅
River's also kind of weird in that everything kind of jumps the shark after it's revealed she's Melody Pond. There's just a real big disconnect between newly regenerated River and the River prior to that. They don't feel like the same character.
@@Aerowind I can see that, but my take is that until she actually regenerated into River she was very much still under the control of the brainwashing and training that Madame Kovorian and The Silence put her through. My theory is that she wasn't fully free to be herself until after the Doctor faked his death at Lake Silencio. Think about it this way, she was stolen from her parents, underwent years of brainwashing and torture, escaped her captors, died of some disease, infection or starvation only to regenerate into a toddler. Then she sought out her parents so that she could grow up with them. My take on it is that not only was she was dealing with PTSD and while with her parents she was still unable to be herself because they wouldn't have understood then that their best friend was their future abducted daughter. That's pretty dark to even read the bullet points of, which is probably why it wasn't really covered in much detail in the show.
YES as someone who adores the husbands of River Song and never really felt like the doctor really loved River until then (I distinctly remember thinking in that episode “oh he DOES love her after all”) I LOVE your take on that episode.
I've always been thinking this, river's cheated on the doctor like multiple times and also legit tried to MURDER him. Never understood the ship, I always thought it was a VERY immature representation of love. 12 and clara was a better love story imho. Two different people settling their differences and growing in loyalty and trust. By the end they were willing to kill for one another.
I mean I forgive the cheating thing since wasn't the Doctor cheating on her at least emotionally with Clara when they were 11 and 12? I honestly think romance is hard with a character with the Doctor since there can never be an endpoint since their love interest will eventually leave the show but the Doctor character will stay till the show ends so it just becomes a weird "so who are they going to fall in love with next"
I interpret the doctor (and maybe time lords in general I’m not sure) as non-monogamous considering a lot of the people they may fall in love with will only live for 1/100 of their lifespan and they live such a fluctuating lifestyle. They may not see each other for years at a time and there seems to be an implicit understanding that their love exists in the background of whatever adventure they’re up to next. In “the husbands of River Song” 12 doesn’t seem upset about her having outside relationships, just about the fact that she seemingly forgot all about him. And when he has outside “situationships” he never shows concern about his marriage, not even in a “oh if she finds out she might get upset” way. We just don’t see enough of their relationship to truly judge, but I’m pretty confident it’s an open marriage and they’re both okay with that
The time travel shenanigans inherent to the couple are a bit of an incoherent mess in and of themselves too. Getting to see a character’s development happen in reverse because we’re seeing a younger version of the character each time is a really cool concept for a time travel show, but it seems like Moffat didn’t really commit to it because he realized it was too big of a writing restriction. Like we’re told multiple times that River’s past is The Doctor’s future and vice-versa, but in practice, this rule gets broken all the time. And instead of watching a character arc happen backwards, River is pretty much a static character up until Let’s Kill Hitler, where we get one episode with a very early River before she fell in love with The Doctor, only for this to be immediately resolved in the same episode and for her character to return to the status quo. If Moffat had actually committed to the “River’s past is the Doctor’s future” thing, we’d never see the River we knew again after Let’s Kill Hitler.
I never for a second believed that The Doctor loved River. Sure, she loved him I guess (which may have to do with Rivers upbringing) but it felt more like he was just humouring her, even by staying on Darillium. Yes he cares about River but I don't think he cares about her as much as he cares about some other companions. Compare The Doctor's relationships with companions like Rose, Clara, heck even Sarah Jane if you want to see it that way, those make sense. I could be wrong but I don't even think 15 mentioned River when he was referencing a bunch of stuff in The Giggle.
I’m not gonna lie, I’ve low key thought this the whole time, it’s almost like time itself has a script and they’re both just forced to follow it, saying they love each other, whether they do or not. At best I’d hope they do truly have those feelings, but it feels like they were forced to just do all this shit
It's like people who doesn't see real love between The Doctor and River are afraid of admitting it, because the rest of the world likes their relationship😄
Hm... I can't talk that much about 11, but even then, they had genuine love after the Doctor discover that River was Amy's daughter. 12 was 100% in love with her. This thing about "time has a script and you have to follow" is not real. We've seen the time change multiple times, it's fluid. There's an episode in season 13 of the classic series that the Doctor shows Sarah Jane the future if they didn't stop a certain creature, but then they stopped and the future changes. They are not forced to follow anything
It feels like River forced the relationship because she is supposedly a psychopath- trained to kill the Doctor. The trouble with this? Psychopaths do not charge- they do not experience emotions. It is all forced and unreal- it becomes a silly caricature.
Although I am a bit downhearted of this realisation, I'm glad you've acknowledged that it wasn't either of their faults and it was purely circumstantial. Even though I still enjoy their relationship, I do agree with a lot of your points. And honestly, in real life, it REALLY wouldn't be a fun relationship to be in.
The Doctor and River are acting out a causality paradox, behaving like it is required to close the loop. Mostly calculated actions by the Doctor, River is just there to give this stylised idea of love and unavoidable fate. As with all the other fairytale stuff, Moffat does not write characters, he writes tropes, no layers but simple ideas. In my opinion that's why River does not work as a relationship. Same thing with Clara, destined to be with the Doctor and at the end unable to face the consequences of her actions because of that.
Not gonna lie, my biggest issue with this pairing has always been that I’m just not a fan of the Doctor being romantic partners with anyone. For me, River worked so much better in the early stories where she was just kind of along for the ride- flirty, sure, maybe even intimate, but making her the Doctor’s wife just puts all this pressure on the relationship. The show makes you ask what makes River SO special that the Doctor “falls in love” with her in a way he’s seemingly never done with anyone else…and I don’t think it really has an answer.
Doctor and River always feels like we're waiting for that key, pivotal episode where they actually fall for each other and it never happens. She should have been a regular companion for at least a season where their timelines sync
I'm surprised given that you caught the similarities to The Time-Traveller's Wife that you don’t mention Benny Summerfield. As soon as I learnt thing one about her I was like "Oh River is just Moffat changing a name in his fanfic to publish it legitimately"
I agree 100%, but also Benny would never let herself get that caught up in the Doctor; she knows him way too well and, well, she's an adult with a life outside of the Doctor. 😂 Hell, she slept with Eight and just made jokes instead of getting all up in her head about it. River is written as a woman who has somehow only ever had one true romantic relationship in her entire life; it's wild.
A really interesting take on the character dynamics here. Personally, I think I was always waiting for the 2-series-long period where they met in between, with River as a constant companion and both characters knowing each other equally, before being forced to slip back into the tragedy of being out of sync again. I think I always assumed this is what they were setting up back in Silence in the Library. I think it would have been really interesting to see the Doctor-River dynamic front and centre for a series or two, with the restrictions of preserving the timeline lifted, with neither being burdened by knowing the other any more than the other does.
Mhm, it never did feel like 11 was hanging out with River out of an actual want and more to mark off a checklist. I specifically remember in the Series 5 angel episode when he sees her "hello sweetie" message and he gives a "Oh boy, here we go" look. I think Moffat wanted to course correct that issue with "Husbands", where 12 is genuinely happy to see River in a context where he has no obligation to see her, but it does get quickly buried by the tongue-in-cheek tone of the story. Yes Steven, we can tell it's an inverse of their first time meeting, you could've spent much less of the runtime on quips about it. Also, River's reaction to 11 healing her in Manhattan only makes sense if he was risking losing too much energy and reducing his possible incarnations, which of course doesn't work given that this is actually his final incarnation, demonstrating how last-minute that retcon in Time of the Doctor was.
Yeah, that moment in _Angels_ made sense in context, but given future elaborations like _Day_ and _Time’s_ regeneration count and _Husbands’_ clarification that River had no idea Eleven wasn’t the last, it’s kinda sabotaged.
Okay...you're right Moffat decided to bring the 13 incarnations I to cannon at the last moment.Buuuut, if all the doc had was a last bit of energy left - maybe just to heal a wound - or maybe to attempt one last regeneration a la rhe master in classic who. It actually makes so much more sense how she gets angry when u realize this is the last of the last of his regeneration ability from what they know. River gave 10+ regeneration to save the doc, it wouldn't be overkill at all for him to waste an entire regeneration on her ..I'd say he owes her one! I'd say thos secrn only makes sense with the time of the doctor as context!
Actually, if she knows that's his last life and his regeneration energy is only useful for healing, she may feel it's a waste to use it on her instead of himself, which is VERY in character for her. She sees genuine affection as "stupid sentimentality" and doesn't really embrace that sentimentality until Darillium it seems.
He was probably happy to see her cause even he thought for the longest time that his 11 would be his last, he probably thought he would never see her again.
It did not help that River looked like she was forcing herself on a deeply uncomfortable Eleventh Doctor who was squirming awkwardly. It's a vibe but it's not a romantic vibe.
I really do not like this couple. I've never understood it, never enjoyed it, and that was before all the weird timeline/free will issues, so I am here for this video
The Doctor's life depends on River falling in love with him, and he knows this from their first meeting. If she doesn't fall in love with him, she doesn't sacrifice herself at the Library, and his whole future is changed. Looking at it through that lens, you could easily argue that everything he does in his relationship with her is calculated to achieve that end of her falling in love. There doesn't need to be any sincere emotion on his part. It's not a great love story; it's pulling strings.
Yes, totally agree. I never felt ANY chemistry between Eleven and River. I really liked her and her 'mystery' in Silence in the library, but her storyline afterwards was just weird and her character all over the place. She alternates between competent scientist, chaotic neutral-to-good badass, harassing psycho, and whiny fangirl. IMHO, let's kill Hitler was the main assassination of her character and the romantic plot as well, and so sexist it's actually hard to watch.
You have a good point. 11 always felt like a little kid most of the time. Like in The Lodger it was like he'd never known anything about Earth. Like a toddler learning new things. So how could he be in love when he acts like that. He gets better with Clara. Not by much but some. I guess losing Amy and Rory had him grow up. But the romance did feel more genuine with 12. It's a shame that episode couldn't have ended with them just flying off in the Tardis for another adventure and saving her final days for later and given her and 12 more adventures.
If Capaldi had been her main husband doctor I think we would look at the whole relationship differently. His relationship with Clara seemed more impactful than with his wife.
THANK YOU! I have never liked River. I even wrote a long Tumblr post about how toxic & abusive she is. The Doctor never made any suggestions that he actually loves her romantically. And I can’t get past her slapping him 3 times. That’s not love.
I always thought that the Doctors interest in River was simply because she was an anomaly. He likes the mystery and the wild nature of their meetings and partings, she’s not someone he can easily predict, and that’s fun to him. We all know the Doctor loves fun 😂 It always seemed more of a, “Okay, I’ll play along cause I want to see where this goes,” rather than a romance from his end.
Yeah, it definitely felt weird. I like to make sense of Capaldi's tears with that lens though. Like, their relationship was awkward and nonsensical, but could part of his sadness be regret that their relationship could never be what they might have both "deserved"?
The relationship between the Doctor and River was something I never particularly liked either. I would say it’s at it’s peak in Silence in the Library where we know literally nothing about River except that she is obviously hugely important to the Doctor, but we don’t know why beyond our best guess being maybe she’s a future companion. Beyond that I hated damn near every creative decision made for her. I hated her being part Time Lord, because her getting Time Lord powers from being conceived in the Tardis seemed like a massive ass-pull. I hated the part about her being a child soldier/assassin who was raised to kill the Doctor but falling in love with him because it made her a badly written yandere whose whole personality is she’s in love with the object of her obsession and likes to murder stuff. It’s also pretty clear to me that the Doctor never actually loved River but was simply going through the motions because it’s better to be friends with the yandere, in the same way in Future Diary Yukiteru starts out by stringing Yuno along simply because she’s terrifying when angry and is the only thing keeping him alive. To me the thing that solidifies the Doctor never actually loving River is once she dies at the library and her consciousness is uploaded he never goes back to see her. She’s put away where she can’t bother him anymore and he’s done with her and the fake relationship he’d maintained.
Glad I'm not the only one who sees that. For me this whole "love story" was one of the most painful things to watch in the entire show and I glad it's over (kinda). Also I don't like River Song intervine in classic Doctors stories in Big Finish.
River is one of my all-time favourite Who characters. You’re right in that they weren’t really in love or a real couple, but that sort of fitted their characters. They’re both time travellers who have taken on a lot of responsibility and who have been through so much alone that they don’t really know how to have a direct one-to-one relationship. The marriage is an act, to accommodate River’s love for the Doctor with the fact that he cares about her deeply, but doesn’t love and may not be capable of loving her in that way. River chooses this dynamic too; she chooses to love the Doctor as the ultimately solitary, wild adventurer he is- in part because she may not be capable of that relationship either. In the Angels Take Manhattan, the Doctor in one of his more raw and wounded moments asks River to stay travelling with him, and she refuses. River insists on maintaining that part-time relationship because there should only be “one psychopath per TARDIS,” alluding to she nor the Doctor being normal enough or human enough to settle into a full-time partnership. The Doctor changes of course; the Doctor in the Husbands of River song and the fourteenth who settles down with the Noble-Temple family seemed like they might have more of that capacity in them. But either way, I think their dynamic works. River embraces the life of a time traveller, and just because the adventures she routinely escapes from Stormcage for are somewhat pre-destined, doesn’t mean she’s not living them as her bright and thrill-seeking self
The big question I've always had about their relationship is "WHY do they love each other?" For River, it seems she was conditioned at birth to obsess over killing him, only for the obsession to twist from negative to positive when they do meet but it does feel partially libido-driven on top of a very sudden change of heart. Meanwhile for The Doctor... I genuinely couldn't tell you. The more they get to know her, the more they seem incompatible - she likes guns and sex and making the tough decisions even if people get hurt, he's an ace pacifist who wants to ensure everybody lives. The whole thing just doesn't ring true to me.
Day of the Moon kind of references that during the showdown with the Silence. The Doctor points out she likes shooting people and literally says "I shouldn't like that. Kind of do, a bit.", showing he doesn't care that she's violent. Which is strange. It could be a simple case of mischaracterisation, but it could also be a sign of a toxic relationship. The Doctor is so in love with her that he ignores the bad stuff she does. Which could've opened up to an interesting story of River getting worse and worse and the Doctor turning a blind eye until he has to be told by Amy and Rory to open his eyes and stop her.
Thank you for this video. I totally agree with you in every point. I can't see love between these two. Since River's introduction in the library, I was waiting to see their chemistry and their relationship developing, but it kinda never does. Everything feels forced. It feels like the Doctor is just following the script because he knows things need to happen the way they happen until their last date and the whole sonic screwdriver thing. Because she told him that's how it happens. I do believe the Doctors cares for River, that he loves her in some way, but he is not "in love" with her. The relationship between the Doctor and Rose was a lot more believable.
I came to the series after so many of my friends lauded it and were firmly ensconced in the lore. I knew generally about River Song and how beloved she was so I eagerly awaited the development of her character. I love Alex Kingston. And Silence in the library is one of my favorite episodes sets in the series. But I was perplexed by every other episode with River Song. She seemed like a different character. At what point did she become someone who had genuine care and affection for her archeology team who had seemed so happy to come back together inside the computer simulation? When did that River emerge? Really saddened by the tragedy of her obsession with the doctor who really only seemed to love her in the way one loves a distant blood relative - because they are part of your history and heritage and connected to you by blood. The doctor was fond of her because she was a recurring character in his life and because he had been so fond of the Ponds. But no indication of anything more. The only episode where I sensed genuine affection from the Doctor was The Husbands of River Song. I would have liked to see River meet Jodie Whitaker's Doctor. I think they would've had a lot of chemistry and affection. And I would've liked to have seen the Doctor give River his true name out of genuine need in an organically emotional situation, rather than feel like a calculation from the Doctor who wondered if it was time to do it yet or not.
@@GalvatronoverI genuinely loved Jodie Whitaker's Doctor and enjoyed many of the episodes in that era even though, I may not have loved some of the directions they took the canon of Dr. who. I loved the combination of companions and the performer they chose for the Master - though I'm so sick of the repetitive unchanging villainery of the Master. Every time the Master shows up, I'm like, "oh, it's them again. Sigh."
Completely agree with everything you said. Tbh I find the way River seems to sexualize the Doctor (which is only absent in Silence in the library) pretty creepy, bordering on consent issues. The whole thing always had some kind of Stalker dynamic for me. Zero romantic vibes.
i remember being so intrigued by river conceptually when i first watched the library two-parter. their dynamic was PERFECT for the situation they were in: ten's clear discomfort against river's attempts in vain to hide her disappointment and heartbreak. the idea of time-traveling lovers meeting constantly in reverse is such a tragic one, and our POV alongside the doctor's in their first meeting does its job perfectly. when river showed up again in her first 11th doctor episode, i remember getting really excited, realizing that she'd be a recurring character and we'd get to explore the tragedy of their relationship and watch it develop on the doctor's side as it decayed on hers, and eventually maybe even see their last meeting (from the doctor's pov) as described in silence of the library. and then none of that happened until her final episode with capaldi. for all the reasons you so elegantly stated in this video, this kind of romance in this kind of situation is inherently a tragic one, and the fact that it was only treated as such in river's first appearance and last was one of the biggest arrows through my heart watching the moffat era. classic moffat tho, ey? incredible sci-fi ideas with very poor consideration to their themes and how characters act within them.
I personnaly love the unique relationship they have and I think the story of it is so interesting and also really sad. When River kisses the Doctor in the second episode of the 6th season, seeing that it is the first time for him and realizing that it is the last time for her and that she's approaching to the moment when the Doctor will not even know her... I think it is just so sorrowful and heartbreaking. I think even if indeed their relationship is born with obligation and obsession, for me we can't say that there is absolutely nothing between them. I think even if it was kinda wrote for them and "forced" because of the complexity of their relationship with the time, they ended up really caring for each other, even the Doctor towards River in my opinion. As I said, their relationship is unique and that makes it so interesting. I also think it shouldn't be compared to the relationship between Rose and the Doctor as I saw a lot of people doing, because those are completely different kind of love and relation, as they are different persons, with a different experience with the Doctor - also even out of the context of the serie, I generally think it is impossible to love the ame way two persons in your life, I mean by that you can love several persons with the same intensity during you life but still it will not be the same with every of those persons because they will obviously all be different. In that way, I prefere thinking that the Doctor loved River in a different way that he loved Rose, without talking about how much he loved both of them. Is what I'm trying to explain understandable ? I'm not a native english-speaker btw
I’m not a fan of River, and her “relationship” with the doctor is unbearable. Thank you for making this. I’ve never found anyone who agrees with me lol.
There was genuinely no romance with them. Truly awful relationship building. “Believe they’re in love because we keep saying they are.” Nah, give me some evidence. At least a little bit!
This bothered me so much especially on a recent re-watch. I think part of the problem is that Moffat has clearly written his own opinions on men and women and relationships (as stated in interviews, that women just want to get married where as men can manage much better and for longer without women/relationships) into Matt Smith's Doctor. After how heart breakingly sad David Tennant's response to her death is in their last episode, seeing Matt Smiths Doctor essentially try and run away from/escape her the first time they interact that we as the audience gets to see is just so disconnected and feels so wrong. It honestly feels like he hates her the whole season. Its the first time I really noticed how often Moffat 'self inserts' in his writing.
When we first see her with Ten, her actions seem self-sacrificing. Later, when we know more about her, we realize she has no choice. If Ten dies, there will be no Eleven to have her parents on the TARDIS.
If Dr Who wasn't a kids' show and Moffat was a stronger writer there could actually be a really interesting dark exploration of free will, agency, consent and love. Two people getting married and gaslighting each other into falling in love, all because everything around them is telling them it's supposed to happen - I think there's a lot of complex layers and themes you could explore with that.
Tbh, I'm not a huge fan of the Doctor and River's relationship either. I think River's intro with Ten was handled really well, and I think her final episode with Twelve was quite sweet and touching and tragic. But imo, nothing that happens in the middle really works. And I think a part of that is because it never takes the time to explore the complexities that this type of relationship would bring, or even show the two of them bonding or developing feelings for each other. So much of their time together happens offscreen that by the time River's arc is over, it's still hard to believe in this relationship or the love they supposedly have. Plus, I think Kingston had better chemistry with both Tennant and Capaldi than she did with Matt Smith. Some people will argue that the Doctor/River is better than the Doctor/Rose because the Doctor/River relationship is more equal. But while I do think that's the case to an extent, in that they are both independent and do their own things --- it's also notable that River was raised almost from birth with her entire life revolving around the Doctor, which in and of itself creates a bizarre power dynamic. AND, even by the time we meet River in her final story with Twelve, she's still holding the Doctor up on a pedestal, believing he can't love her because he's just too important and too special. River is often touted as a character who knows and understands the Doctor and has this tight bond with him, but they rarely talk about anything that really matters --- at least not that we see on screen. And to me, the very fact that she seems to wholeheartedly believe love is too "small" and "ordinary" for him means that she apparently doesn't know him very well at all. At least, not in the modern context. I know a lot of people love the Doctor and River, but while I think it was an interesting concept to explore and I love Alex Kingston, I never really liked the way it was executed. Her story was a convoluted mess as well. I have such complicated feelings about series 6 as a whole.
Something I love about your videos is how you explain your perspective but never try to force it on others. You don’t just say “the doctor and river’s relationship is bad” but you say “it doesn’t work for me and this is why” which is quite refreshing and I really love the discussion and reasons you put forth. Personally, I do quite like their relationship, but definitely agree that the writing in parts left a bit to be desired
We never saw him tell her his name. We've never seen them fall in love. Or being in love. It was just always foreshadowed. I've been waiting for these episodes, but they never came.
I disagree. My personal problem with Rose and the Doctor is that it doesn't feel real. Mainly because Rose doesn't love the Doctor. She loves the 10th Doctor. Do you think she would love the 12th Doctor? Or the 1st? Or 2nd? 3rd? 6th? 13th? I don't. Also, to me, 9 and Rose felt like a father/daughter relationship. You have Rose, a young 19 year old who never had her father, meets a man who looks the same age as her dad would be and he shows her the universe, teaching her lessons about herself and everything around her. Then the 9th Doctor. The man who just lost his entire family and world. He meets Rose, a young girl who gives him a new meaning in life and shows him that he can still find joy and happiness in the universe. He doesn't think her boyfriend is good enough for her and would rather her date Adam, the more intelligent and high standing in life. And then Jack comes along, the handsome rogue and catches Roses attention. The Doctor is protective and doesn't like Jack because he just sees a womanising con man who will just break Rose's heart. Until Jack proves himself to be better than that by saving the day.
@@mrdr0161 I disagree with you. I don't think Rose felt the 9th doctor like a father. I think she actually loves him, at first not romantically but like a friend, a companion, and later romantically. She grew up her love for him in a very special and prpbably strange way. Then she meet 10. And fell in love again now romantically at first but it makes sense because he is much younger and atractive. She already loved him but now there is another feeling growing up which is atraction. I believe Rose would love 11 the same way. I believe it would be difficult with 12 but I don't think she would not love him AT ALL. She would. But I think that would be more like a relationship in which she stayed the same age and he grew up, that kind of trope, like in inmortal and mortal relationships in movies and series. She would love 13 easily again. 14 OF COURSE, and 15... Well... She would love him but probably not romantically because 14 is still there.
Very good video! You raise a lot of interesting points. Iirc in an interview Steven Moffat said that the character was based on the Time Traveller's Wife and that the idea was that River told the Doctor they were married in the future in a way to "trap" him, so its funny some of the stuff you bring up here. Keep it up!
Here's the thing. You're not wrong here, but at the same time I find Husbands of River Song absolutely delightful and I'm not sure they're supposed to be a "good" couple
I seem to recall that when the doctor first meets River before she dies, he says that time can be rewritten, and she says, not those times not one line don’t you dare. I can agree that pieces of it were forced, but found I absolutely enjoyed the performance those playing the characters gave. I think the doctor eventually found a way to love River, even if it wasn’t how she loved him. (In her own words, raised to be obsessed with him so of course who else was she going to fall in love with)
As someone else commented, I enjoyed River's first and last appearances...but that's about it. I never bought hers and 11's relationship, and I wish they hadn't made her the child of Amy and Rory as well as the TARDIS. I feel like she's just there to prop up the plot most of the time and is made out to be super-important and perfect without any actual characterisation which irritates me. She's a very flat character IMO. No disrespect to Alex Kingston who had to work with what she had.
Nope I’m gonna have to completely agree with on this. I never like the Doctor and Rivers relationship and they never really came across as in love. I picked up on the similarities to the Time traveler wife as well which is just or more icky. The Doctor is told he loves River song, that he must have because because he gave her a sonic screwdriver and she knows his name, he never has the chance to develop feelings for her, it more like, oh well apparently I love love and took you on a date to so and so so I’d better do that then I guess. And River had an obsession with him as child that could easily become confused with love, it why I had a problem with the time travers wife.
I actually feel so validated seeing a video from a major DW channel that criticises the Doctor and River’s relationship. I never liked their relationship or River for that matter. I feel like River’s first appearance in the Library/Forest two-parter set up such high expectations that this very deep and emotional relationship was coming. But then it wasn’t delivered. I feel like if he wanted to make their bond as strong as he implied, he should have made River a main, regular companion, and not just someone who pops up every now and then, is oh so badass and sassy and then disappears again. It was just a really badly developed relationship. I never felt invested in it at all. As you said: super forced, lack of chemistry and lack of genuine bonding. Maybe with Twelve at the end, it finally felt somewhat genuine, but it wasn’t enough to redeem the whole thing.
Definitely agree. The worst crime is the lack of chemistry, imo. Second worst is that from her first appearance she felt like a badly written Mary Sue with manufactured coolness instead of ACTUALLY being cool.
I've never warmed to River, and this video explains it perfectly. Her and eleven never had any chemistry and her cringey flirtations almost came across like a creepy couger (ironically)
I've just finished rewatching s6 and yeah. I agree. personally, I think that out-of-order relationships are something that the show really ought to explore more, considering the premise, but river and dr who simply don't work. it has the vibes of a marriage where one party got knocked up and the two had to get married to save face, except the circumstances forcing them together are knowing each others' futures, not archaic social customs. the way in which the two interact never has a clear 'they're both at the same point' convergence, so one always has all of their love in the future meanwhile the other has it all in their past. it doesn't play out the interest that sort of relationship has, not to mention the incredibly unequal power dynamics. what prevents river (or dr who, but river is in that position first) from lying and saying something that isn't the case to keep dr who under her control? what prevents the relationship from going full-on abusive? unless it's a fixed point, inaccuracies and lies could easily be explained as time being in flux. I also think the fact most adventures between the two are offscreen adds to the lack of genuine and freely chosen connection, as it adds to the fact we only ever see them at rather extreme ends of their time together, with the angels take manhattan being the most equilibrious moment. anyway, I think the relationship could've made for a good piece of horror due to the lack of free will on either river's or dr who's part, but instead it's played as love despite the odds. but it's not, and it really is just surface level and quite honestly? moffat has a habit of it, if you consider clara's 'impossible girl' arc.
THANK YOU for this assessment. It's an accurate picture of how I've viewed River and the Doctor over the years. I never felt they gelled; it always felt forced to me, like Moffat had some crazy Mary Sue issues and wrote River in to explore them. I like River as a character, just not as a love interest for the Doctor. And boy, that scene in The Angels Take Manhatten where he heals her wrist and she just storms off has frustrated me no end. Here he did something truly loving and sacrificial for her--and she acts like it's the worst thing he could have done, and throws it back in his face. Blah. I also did kind of feel she was better with Twelve, but that was more their age--they looked the right age for each other, where she always looked too old next to Matt Smith's baby face. Of course this is not a popular opinion, but I much prefer the Eleventh Doctor with Clara. I felt he had oodles of chemistry going with her, particularly in The Snowmen with her Victorian echo. It's a fact that Smith told Coleman to watch old Hepburn/Tracey movies to get a feel for their interplay. Something I doubt he ever discussed with Kingston.
@@mayotango1317 I think it's normal for the teenager to be smitten with an older man who's an adventurer able to show her all of time and space. Whether you agree with his reciprocating (or even whether you think he did reciprocate) is another question.
@@mayotango1317 Well, when you look at how many teens and 20 year Olds who fawn over David Tennant, a 52 year old married man, I'd say yeah, that's fairly realistic and normal.
@tjet34, in my opinion, since it is an expenditure of his life force, she should appreciate it even more, and be honored he chose to honor and love her in that manner, instead of throwing it back in his face. I'd be honored if someone chose to do something like that for me. It would show me I was loved and cherished.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one that was completely confused about this relationship. Personally, I thought they were great together in the first episode together, and River would've made a great companion, just not a romantic one. But honestly, The New Adventures of Doctor Who was always trying to create romances that made no sense. I mean they tried putting him with Rose (and technically did in the end), even though she had a "boyfriend" who also felt forced. There were a bunch of other ones I could name, but that would take too long. Donna was my favorite companion, even if she wasn't a romantic interest.
I never liked River much, either. I always remember her first appearance. The instant that she found out the Doctor was meeting her for the first time, she lost all faith in him. Just like that, she decides that he cannot be relied upon. Because, according to her, he wasn't really "the Doctor" yet, because apparently he was nothing before he met HER. Lecturing to his current companion, completely dismissing Donna's own faith! I guess all those times he saved the universe prior to their relationship were just pure luck! Sheesh, what an ego. Just couldn't get OVER herself!
I don't think she's saying she made him the Doctor. And she doesn't decide he can't be relied on upon, she still trusts her. She just says he isn't her Doctor. This isn't the man she knows. Also, from her POV, the Doctor is inexperienced. From when the doctor first met her and when she first met him, he had gone through so much. The events of Journey's End, the Time Lord Victorius, the End of Time, the Pandorica, A Good Man Goes To War. That's a lot of trauma that had affected him
@@mrdr0161Sorry, I wrote out a very, very lengthy rebuttal, but UA-cam apparently thought it was spam and erased it. It's late, and I'm really not in the mood to try to reconstruct it, so please take my word that I made an excellent case. Long story short, it centered on the section of dialogue in Forest of the Dead in which River talks about how she "wishes the Doctor was here", and how great "her" Doctor is, and when Ten says, no, he actually is the Doctor, she says, "Yeah, some day". I just found it tremendously condescending. I mean, after saving the Universe a thousand times and enduring the horrors of the Time War this particular companion declares that he's not really the Doctor because he's not HER Doctor, and she doesn't know if he can handle their situation in the Library, which was, let's face it, a fairly standard monster scenario. Just rubbed me the wrong way.
This is all fair. The Doctor is a very damaged person, and so is River (and I feel the same about Henry and Claire - imprinting on him as a young child, she doesn’t have much choice either). The thing is, I don’t think they’re meant to seem like a healthy couple, and the tragedy of their relationship is frequently touched upon. The Doctor is intrigued by this mystery woman. River is obsessed but also has her own badass life. I’m glad they get to have some fun together throughout the timey-wimey stuff. It bothers me much more when Amy & Rory’s relationship doesn’t make sense, like in Asylum of the Daleks. We don’t get to see any normal romantic dates for anyone because that’s boring TV on an adventure show - it happens all offscreen. We also don’t see “Space Florida” or any normal fun travels with companions where nothing bonkers happens because, again, it wouldn’t be exciting TV. When it comes to bootstrap paradoxes, there isn’t a lot of surprise involved, so ultimately I think the question for viewers is, “Are you having fun?” I enjoy River a lot, but I also get why some don’t. See, fans can be reasonable! :) I did get quite tired of saying goodbye to River over and over.
An interesting perspective I hadn’t given much thought to before. Using this as a jumping off point: it seems more like an arranged, loveless marriage they undertake out of necessity or obligation wherein the couple eventually find love, but it takes their entire lives.
'My bespoke psychopath.' That line from Matt's Doctor says a lot. I do believe River loves all versions of the Doctor but what form that love takes changes. It is another complicated relationship similar to the Doctor and the Master. I could see versions of River working with the Master, and other versions trying to kill each other. It is kind of sad. The Master and River orbit the Doctor and the Doctor feels strongly about both of them. I do think the Doctor loves River and different regenerations love her differently. I think your view on this is interesting.
River had zero chemistry with Any of the Doctor's, I never bought he fact she was the doctor's supposed wife and her storyline in season 6 is what started the downhill spiral for the modern show, so convoluted and the fact she was Amy's daughter was just so flat and dull and didn't mean or lead up to anything. She feels like more of a gimmick character than an actual companion, just there to deliver flirting and innuendo dialogue without any substance.
@@mayotango1317 but at least the Doctor and Rose connection was there on screen, I didn't like that story either but it didn't derail the show Ike river did
@@mayotango1317 umm...to a certain extent...but I would argue that Romana learnt things from the doctor and earned her status as being an equal as her time went on. River just automatically acts like she's his equal because she knows more about his future than the Doctor himself does
Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. I never got the impression that the Doctor was in love with River. Not to say that he didn't love her as a friend, as the daughter of his best friends. But I never believed there was anything romantic about it from his side. River, on the other hand probably was in love - verging on obsessed with Doctor, which I think is understandable given her upbringing. A lot of stock is given to the fact that River was the one he married. And yet people forget that she pretty much forced him into it, in sake of the universe. Their whole relationship (from his POV) was forced. By River revealing to the Doctor that she knew his true name, she had cemented the fact that he would one day now have to, because he knew it already happened. Sorry for the long speech, just to say really that, beyond platonic love, the Doctor was manipulated into having a romantic relationship - in my opinion! Its okay if you don't agree with that.
Never having read the Time Traveller's Wife, I'm shocked by the 'similarities'. Genuinely. River Song was a great character, just as Captain Jack is a great character, but there was never a hint of real love on the Doctor's part. Just another companion with a crush on the Time Lord. In 2005, the Doctor described Rose as "just another stupid ape". By 2020 he's married one and is constantly "falling in love" with those apes.
Yeah idk I like the novel but Moffat's obsession with it is tiresome and repetitive. Imagine if I was put in charge of Doctor Who and decided to make 80% of the arcs and character relationships I wrote into homages to Halo. There's a point where homage becomes a disservice to both the work it's in and the work it's referencing.
I definatly felt like the doctor wasn't really into River but River was obsessed with the doctor because she was brainwashed as a child, and then redirected that murder obsession into romantic love out of guilt and gratefulness when she actually got to know him and he decided to save her life and not retaliate against her because 1. she was his best friends kid 2. he is a generally compassionate person and 3. he had to in order not to mess up the timeline.
Excellent video, I agree. I thought the first episode in the library with Tennant was brilliant and had so much potential for future episodes, but the rest were a bit underwhelming for the reasons you stated. And it seems kind of out of character for them to just go along with things because that's what time dictates or what she was programmed to do. Their relationship was always going to be doomed and tragic and they'd both understand that the first time they met the other, so what I'd imagine would be that the majority of their relationship would be more as friends as they would both be fighting against "fate" or rather what the timeline dictates. And they would also be trying to avoid the pain that actually having that specific relationship would likely bring if they ever did start to develop romantic feelings. I think ironically that would bring them closer together and could result in a romantic relationship when they are both in the middle-ish (I know the timeline is messy) of their relationship/time knowing each other, but that would be a relationship born out of this unique dynamic that only the two of them share and even in defiance of "fate"/the timeline rather than just engaging in the relationship "because they have to", then they'd inevitably have to start to withdraw their affections which would be tragic as well. But I guess at the end of the day it's a really hard dynamic to write.
There is something so late "2000s-early 2010s" about this dynamic. Where we just accepted stuff with obviously problematic issues and had all of the ~☆feels☆~ about them, and it's only years later you look back and realize that there were so many things wrong with it.
I truly loath the backstory they ended up giving River. It feels so devastatingly flattening to a character who was so interesting. I really wish she had stayed a mystery. To other writers: if you don't have a clear, strong, reasonable backstory for a character already, leave them a mystery. Not everything needs to be explained to be good.
Thank you for this video! I never believed the Doctor was in love with her, and every time I tried to explain why to my friends they’d roll their eyes.
Their love story always seemed "iffy" to me but I didn't exactly know why, I just never bought that these two characters loved each other or even had a friendship with many shared adventures. River slapping The Doctor after him healing her broken wrist was the final nail in the coffin for me. After that there was no way for me to believe that their relationship was genuine and healthy.
When i saw the ending of the library two parter and the "love and trust" of the doctor giving river his name and his screwdriver every later meeting feels a little sick, like the doctor is taking advantage of rivers affection just so she can save him later Not to mention a couple of lines in the impossible astronaut suggesting that rivers feelings are not her own and shes just been brainwashed into loving the doctor
I totally agree, I never felt like River and 11 had chemistry. I stopped watching regularly around the time Clara turned up, so I haven't seen how River and the Doctor interact for myself, but I've never really liked the idea of the Doctor having any kind of romantic relationship.
Harbo Patreon and chill?
www.patreon.com/harbowholmes
Still a better love story that the whole Rose Tyler melodrama.
" it's almost as if they gaslight themselves into proceeding with a relationship" pure gold
That’s not gaslighting, that’s a self fulfilling prophecy.
The key point and tragedy of The Time Travellers Wife is exactly that - they have no free will to choose each other because time travel shenanigans mean it's already happened
I think the concept of time travelers meeting in the wrong order is really cool, but they never really interacted on screen in a way that felt like they actually liked each other. Just on a basic level
That could have been a good thing if Moffatt had resisted the urge to turn it into some sort of love story.
Keep us guessing for a couple of episodes (not dragged out to boredom point) as to whether she's a villain or not, then find out she's just some random time traveller who keeps bumping into him.
That's because they met out of order and he wasn't 'caught up' to where she was in their relationship.
That's true, but we have plenty of examples of the doctor having good chemistry with people he's just met, which is how most companions become companions. Most of the time with river, especially in Matt Smith's run, he just seems irritated by her@@gusmonster59
IMO, that is part of the point. They keep meeting in roughly opposite order meaning that almost every time we see them onscreen together, one of them is in love while the other is still warming up to the idea. It's not surprising that they often seemed awkward together. It's a standard tale of a man and a woman slowly growing to love each other over time - except each of them is doing it in the opposite order relative to the other one. :/
(Also IMO a lot of it is down to Eleven being such an awkward manchild. It's hard to believe him as in a mature relationship, regardless of who it's with).
@irrevenant3 You're right, it is a great idea. But in my opinion, for a movie or a mini series, not so great for Dr Who. The romantic entanglement of the Rose and Martha years always seemed out of place to me. Then, trying to develop this sort of love story just got in the way of other stories and is too spread out to be effective. And definitely over as long a period as Moffatt spread it out. It could never work properly with the change of actors in one of the roles, especially as you say, with the main one being a man child.
I feel like the problem is that there was never a romantic story arc. Obviously it would have been different than normal, since River already loves him, but we could have seen the Doctor fall for her
I like the conversation they have in “Angels Take Manhattan” after River breaks her wrist and lies about it. The doctor looks hurt by her joke, and used his regeneration energy to heal her
it seems like the doctor fell in love with her just cause he felt forced by his destiny already written
There were two romantic story arcs, overlaid in different directions. It takes time for the Doctor to genuinely fall for River (the moment Jessica mentions in Angels Take Manhattan is one example) until by the time he's Twelve he is completely in love with her. On the other hand we see River first try to kill the Doctor, decide to save him for a variety of reasons then, over time, grow to become completely in love with him.
That the two of them aren't at the same point romantically and emotionally for most of their relationship is a big part of the point.
I found it unconvincing because a lot of River’s values are actually in opposition to the Doctor’s. She doesn’t have the same respect for life and the timeline that he does. Now, Amy and Rory felt like a real love story.
The funny thing is, though I never liked River's storyline as a whole, her first and last appearances are picture perfect to me. Her chemistry with Peter and David is just so electric, you can really feel like she's lived a lifetime with both of them. 11 on the other hand...idk I think Matt Smith's Doctor was at his best when playing an asexual, grandfather character, and his storyline with River was the exact opposite of that.
Yes! 11 felt like a little boy who thought girls had cooties!
I definitely see what you mean, but personally I feel like Peter's doctor was much more of the asexual grandfather type than Matt's was, I always felt like he was closer to a naive and innocent child mentality a lot of the time
Yep, were her meeting cappaldi the first time they meet, it would maybe work, and no her being amys and rorys and the tardis child. Too much, way too much moffat.
Also like the doctors are basically new persons, rose, had a relationship with 2 doctors only. River could like just be friends with most doctors, .
Moffat really fumbled the bag with rivers character. It feels like everytime she turns up she's less of a real character and more like a plot device. I do love the husbands of river song and feel like that was a great ending for her character. Weird that her best appearances are her first and last
Fun fact: In none of the TV episodes River is in has she passed The Bechdel Test :D [Just one more reason she has never felt like a real character I guess lol. Literally all her screen time is spent with her talking about The Doctor... And that's it :\ ]
She went from being a fun take on Bernice Summerfield into a walking fetish repository/womanchild
Exactly my feeling!
To me it’s not that strange. I sing in a choir and our choir director always tells us: the first and last songs of a concert are the most important. Barely anyone will remember the middle bits unless they’re particularly amazing or stand out much, but everyone will remember how it ended. Listeners have to get hooked at the beginning, entertained in the middle, and wowed at the end.
It’s not quite the same with stories but to some level you can compare it. River got a banger intro and goodbye and that’s what most casual viewer will remember in the end.
@@macejetzer897That's a very good point, especially when there are just so many stories "in the middle".
The thing about Moffat is that he's, at heart, a sit-com writer (who can do drama): the relationships he writes are, essentially, sit-com relationships. They do silly, funny, unrealistic things to make you laugh. He's at his best when he's doing couples (the clue's there in the title of his sit-com, "Coupling").
RTD, on the other hand, is a drama writer (who can do comedy). He's at his best when doing familial/intergenerational relationships (Rose and Jackie, for instance, and Donna and Sylvia and Donna and Wilf, ). They ring truer than Moffat's "couples" because they are "drama relationships" rather than "couple comedies".
Yes! See also Moffat's love of "stylised emotion" and motifs, such as someone crying a single teardrop. That just doesn't happen in real life, just for Moffat's characters. Russell's crying characters would have snot all over their faces and mascara everywhere.
All drwho love is 100% love,,.. ok,, so the idea for a drwho fan ,, is to have an in sequence pearing ,,
the relationship outcome depends on the audience members own circle of fellow whovians
& friends fanfiction,,, ,, so hee it is ,, withover 8 billon years of love storie ,,
@@TheKeyringofRassilon-xz6wp LOL!! And that's just the guys! ;-)
That is the exact opposide of how I feel about Moffat and RTD.
@@gameinguy Interesting.... how come?
I never understood why this pairing has so many fans. There is no chemistry between River and Ten or Eleven. The only episode I really enjoyed with them was River's last episode with Twelve. Also, River lacks depth of character. Her whole personality revolves around being obsessed with the Doctor. Imho she's the blueprint of how not to write a (supposedly) strong female character. We never really see anything to justify why the Doctor loves her. I think there was a lot of potential in that storyline, I just don't think it got anywhere close to it. River/Doctor is the one big thing I actually actively dislike about the Moffat era. It always really annoyed me because it just felt wrong and unbelievable.
Also, totally off-topic, but it was also unbelievable that the River Song character was an archeologist because outside of using those particular skills to essentially stalk the Doctor, we don't really see her have much interest in the things that archeologists would normally have interest in. Like for example, characters like Daniel Jackson from the Stargate franchise & of course Indiana Jones from his franchise, we see them both display clear knowledge, interest, & enthusiasm in their field. But with River, I couldn't believe she was an archeologist through her actions.
imagine writing a couple that not only most of the time seems one-sided and one of them obviously pines for other people, more than he ever did for his so called love interest, not only they don't even have a correct timeline of relationship which get confused and wonder they even met each other properly or not, not only they spend half of the time being enemies. But also the fact that River was the daughter of the couple whom the Doctor could consider as his younger siblings or students, he literally watched her mother's growth. this relationship wasn't just fake, it had all the red flags as well
As an archaeologist, I can tell you that as much as I love the character of Indiana Jones, he is little more than a glorified treasure hunter and professor of ancient history who probably had no time to write grants or papers.
I wish they would have kept with the basic premise of two time travelers passing by each other. None of the tardis baby or religious assassin crap, but the simple and poignant realization that the more the Doctor learns of River, the less River knew about him.
It could have been a beautiful and heartbreaking story separate from Amy’s story, but for whatever reason they wanted to shoehorn her into the main storyline instead of letting it stand on its own and it didn’t work.
I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with a storyline about a paradoxical love between two time travelers. There is an almost inherent tragedy to it. The two of them are falling in love in opposite directions, only falling in love with the other because the other loved them first. I just think this interesting storyline loses that interest and becomes bad because Moffat refuses to acknowledge the toxicity of the relationship instead of embracing it as apart of their tragedy. SOMETIMES TOXIC LOVE MAKES SOMETHING INTERESTING. ESPECIALLY in an inherently tragic show like Doctor Who.
I also think most of their relationships happening off screen is a detriment.
My favorite River song episode is actually “husbands of River Song” with Peter Capaldi. Because you finally have both of them at the end of their timelines with one another. This is the last time River will meet a doctor that knows her, and this is the last time the doctor meets her at all. They are finally on equal playing field with their mutual feelings and it’s also the last time they’ll ever meet. And the Doctor, hating endings, has their last night on a planet on a night that lasts for decades. Drawing out their final goodbye.
So when river meets him at the library and she talks about the singing towers, she’s not talking about a night. She’s talking about a period of a decade they likely lived together. River and the Doctor loved each other, but they loved each other off screen and I think that was a major mistake in getting people invested.
major agree
The singing towers were like the honeymoon/golden years that they didn’t get to get because their timelines were out of sync. In my mind, they worked the best when they were at similar points in timeline (middle of the series/about halfway for both of them, or at the end when they finally sync up). River has a catalog of all of the doctors faces, so I think she was prepared to meet a doctor that wasn’t familiar with her. There was so much missed opportunity to have the wackyness of their dynamic with 11 mature into a real romance arc with 12
none of this makes them any less fake
Yet I wonder if sometime during those 24 years in Darillium they had the fight which led to the Doctor going off to live with otters for a week
omg, I've never been able to fully explain why these two never clicked for me (though I mostly chalk it up to not liking Moffat's writing as showrunner in general and finding River's whole arc really confusing and overly-convoluted) but you made some really great points and put a lot of subconscious thoughts of mine into words!
Finally, someone said it. I was 17 when I first watched "Doctor Who". After first introduction of River, I thought: "Wow, The Doctor will have a wife! Sounds interesting, I can't wait!" And then they married to save the Universe, so their marriage is like fictitious, and there is no genuine love from him. That was disappointing. But last 5 years I've been watching a lot of Doctor Who content with different takes on their relationships, and no one expressed an opinion close to mine, so I just got confused. Like they love each other, it doesn't seem like they do, but they do, probably, I dunno... Thank you for helping me make up my mind about it. I'm back to what I thought at 17
I think "River's" Doctor, the one that actually loved her, was Capaldi's 12th Doctor. 11 just seemed confused outside of the times he was implying banging her at night when she isn't in her cell >_>
Angels Take Manhattan was a good episode for their romance arc
I'm a fan of River, but I agree with your video. I've been revisiting River Song and the 11th Doctor's run.
My take on it is that they begin their relationship as a sort of obligation, the Doctor knows that he means something important to River, but because of them meeting out of sync he doesn't know why or how yet.
I don't think that they actually grew to actually love each other until Darillium. I think the whole point of the ending is that until they actually had time together they went from feeling like they're supposed to care for each other to actually caring for each other.
totally agree, this was my read as well. the relationship never clicked for me until the darillium episode.
100% agree! at the start, it’s obviously pretty messed up, but i think the show doesn’t really… deny it? like it’s quite clear how messed up it all is 😅😅
River's also kind of weird in that everything kind of jumps the shark after it's revealed she's Melody Pond. There's just a real big disconnect between newly regenerated River and the River prior to that. They don't feel like the same character.
@@Aerowind I can see that, but my take is that until she actually regenerated into River she was very much still under the control of the brainwashing and training that Madame Kovorian and The Silence put her through. My theory is that she wasn't fully free to be herself until after the Doctor faked his death at Lake Silencio.
Think about it this way, she was stolen from her parents, underwent years of brainwashing and torture, escaped her captors, died of some disease, infection or starvation only to regenerate into a toddler. Then she sought out her parents so that she could grow up with them. My take on it is that not only was she was dealing with PTSD and while with her parents she was still unable to be herself because they wouldn't have understood then that their best friend was their future abducted daughter. That's pretty dark to even read the bullet points of, which is probably why it wasn't really covered in much detail in the show.
YES as someone who adores the husbands of River Song and never really felt like the doctor really loved River until then (I distinctly remember thinking in that episode “oh he DOES love her after all”) I LOVE your take on that episode.
I've always been thinking this, river's cheated on the doctor like multiple times and also legit tried to MURDER him. Never understood the ship, I always thought it was a VERY immature representation of love. 12 and clara was a better love story imho. Two different people settling their differences and growing in loyalty and trust. By the end they were willing to kill for one another.
I mean I forgive the cheating thing since wasn't the Doctor cheating on her at least emotionally with Clara when they were 11 and 12? I honestly think romance is hard with a character with the Doctor since there can never be an endpoint since their love interest will eventually leave the show but the Doctor character will stay till the show ends so it just becomes a weird "so who are they going to fall in love with next"
I interpret the doctor (and maybe time lords in general I’m not sure) as non-monogamous considering a lot of the people they may fall in love with will only live for 1/100 of their lifespan and they live such a fluctuating lifestyle. They may not see each other for years at a time and there seems to be an implicit understanding that their love exists in the background of whatever adventure they’re up to next. In “the husbands of River Song” 12 doesn’t seem upset about her having outside relationships, just about the fact that she seemingly forgot all about him. And when he has outside “situationships” he never shows concern about his marriage, not even in a “oh if she finds out she might get upset” way. We just don’t see enough of their relationship to truly judge, but I’m pretty confident it’s an open marriage and they’re both okay with that
The time travel shenanigans inherent to the couple are a bit of an incoherent mess in and of themselves too. Getting to see a character’s development happen in reverse because we’re seeing a younger version of the character each time is a really cool concept for a time travel show, but it seems like Moffat didn’t really commit to it because he realized it was too big of a writing restriction. Like we’re told multiple times that River’s past is The Doctor’s future and vice-versa, but in practice, this rule gets broken all the time. And instead of watching a character arc happen backwards, River is pretty much a static character up until Let’s Kill Hitler, where we get one episode with a very early River before she fell in love with The Doctor, only for this to be immediately resolved in the same episode and for her character to return to the status quo. If Moffat had actually committed to the “River’s past is the Doctor’s future” thing, we’d never see the River we knew again after Let’s Kill Hitler.
Ok, the popcorn is ready. Let's keep refreshing the page and watch the fallout in the comments.
Agreed
I appreciate that Harbo threw himself on the pyre for this one.
I never for a second believed that The Doctor loved River. Sure, she loved him I guess (which may have to do with Rivers upbringing) but it felt more like he was just humouring her, even by staying on Darillium. Yes he cares about River but I don't think he cares about her as much as he cares about some other companions. Compare The Doctor's relationships with companions like Rose, Clara, heck even Sarah Jane if you want to see it that way, those make sense. I could be wrong but I don't even think 15 mentioned River when he was referencing a bunch of stuff in The Giggle.
The Doctor caring more about Adric is such a blow to River, now that you mention it haha
15 does mention River in the Giggle, but no more significantly than any other lost companions. She's just a name in a list
I think he says he loved her and Rose in "The Giggle."
@@HuntingViolets That was Sarah Jane, he never said anything about River.
I think he loved her-- he just wasn't in love with her.
I’m not gonna lie, I’ve low key thought this the whole time, it’s almost like time itself has a script and they’re both just forced to follow it, saying they love each other, whether they do or not. At best I’d hope they do truly have those feelings, but it feels like they were forced to just do all this shit
It's like people who doesn't see real love between The Doctor and River are afraid of admitting it, because the rest of the world likes their relationship😄
Hm... I can't talk that much about 11, but even then, they had genuine love after the Doctor discover that River was Amy's daughter. 12 was 100% in love with her. This thing about "time has a script and you have to follow" is not real. We've seen the time change multiple times, it's fluid. There's an episode in season 13 of the classic series that the Doctor shows Sarah Jane the future if they didn't stop a certain creature, but then they stopped and the future changes. They are not forced to follow anything
And when they finally had some chemistry together with Capaldi's Doctor it was too late since that was her last episode, thanks Moffat.
@SammEater right they feel so natural and realistic. It's a crime we didn't get more with them
It feels like River forced the relationship because she is supposedly a psychopath- trained to kill the Doctor. The trouble with this? Psychopaths do not charge- they do not experience emotions. It is all forced and unreal- it becomes a silly caricature.
Although I am a bit downhearted of this realisation, I'm glad you've acknowledged that it wasn't either of their faults and it was purely circumstantial.
Even though I still enjoy their relationship, I do agree with a lot of your points. And honestly, in real life, it REALLY wouldn't be a fun relationship to be in.
The Doctor and River are acting out a causality paradox, behaving like it is required to close the loop. Mostly calculated actions by the Doctor, River is just there to give this stylised idea of love and unavoidable fate. As with all the other fairytale stuff, Moffat does not write characters, he writes tropes, no layers but simple ideas. In my opinion that's why River does not work as a relationship.
Same thing with Clara, destined to be with the Doctor and at the end unable to face the consequences of her actions because of that.
Not gonna lie, my biggest issue with this pairing has always been that I’m just not a fan of the Doctor being romantic partners with anyone. For me, River worked so much better in the early stories where she was just kind of along for the ride- flirty, sure, maybe even intimate, but making her the Doctor’s wife just puts all this pressure on the relationship.
The show makes you ask what makes River SO special that the Doctor “falls in love” with her in a way he’s seemingly never done with anyone else…and I don’t think it really has an answer.
Doctor and River always feels like we're waiting for that key, pivotal episode where they actually fall for each other and it never happens. She should have been a regular companion for at least a season where their timelines sync
I'm surprised given that you caught the similarities to The Time-Traveller's Wife that you don’t mention Benny Summerfield. As soon as I learnt thing one about her I was like "Oh River is just Moffat changing a name in his fanfic to publish it legitimately"
I agree 100%, but also Benny would never let herself get that caught up in the Doctor; she knows him way too well and, well, she's an adult with a life outside of the Doctor. 😂 Hell, she slept with Eight and just made jokes instead of getting all up in her head about it. River is written as a woman who has somehow only ever had one true romantic relationship in her entire life; it's wild.
Soooo much of Moffat's writing feels like fanfic! And I don't mean the good kind. Like cmon man, you're meant to be a professional.
A really interesting take on the character dynamics here. Personally, I think I was always waiting for the 2-series-long period where they met in between, with River as a constant companion and both characters knowing each other equally, before being forced to slip back into the tragedy of being out of sync again. I think I always assumed this is what they were setting up back in Silence in the Library. I think it would have been really interesting to see the Doctor-River dynamic front and centre for a series or two, with the restrictions of preserving the timeline lifted, with neither being burdened by knowing the other any more than the other does.
I think this is completely right, and the problem arises because people thought The Time Traveller's Wife was a romance rather than a tragedy.
Mhm, it never did feel like 11 was hanging out with River out of an actual want and more to mark off a checklist. I specifically remember in the Series 5 angel episode when he sees her "hello sweetie" message and he gives a "Oh boy, here we go" look.
I think Moffat wanted to course correct that issue with "Husbands", where 12 is genuinely happy to see River in a context where he has no obligation to see her, but it does get quickly buried by the tongue-in-cheek tone of the story. Yes Steven, we can tell it's an inverse of their first time meeting, you could've spent much less of the runtime on quips about it.
Also, River's reaction to 11 healing her in Manhattan only makes sense if he was risking losing too much energy and reducing his possible incarnations, which of course doesn't work given that this is actually his final incarnation, demonstrating how last-minute that retcon in Time of the Doctor was.
Yeah, that moment in _Angels_ made sense in context, but given future elaborations like _Day_ and _Time’s_ regeneration count and _Husbands’_ clarification that River had no idea Eleven wasn’t the last, it’s kinda sabotaged.
Okay...you're right Moffat decided to bring the 13 incarnations I to cannon at the last moment.Buuuut, if all the doc had was a last bit of energy left - maybe just to heal a wound - or maybe to attempt one last regeneration a la rhe master in classic who. It actually makes so much more sense how she gets angry when u realize this is the last of the last of his regeneration ability from what they know. River gave 10+ regeneration to save the doc, it wouldn't be overkill at all for him to waste an entire regeneration on her ..I'd say he owes her one! I'd say thos secrn only makes sense with the time of the doctor as context!
Actually, if she knows that's his last life and his regeneration energy is only useful for healing, she may feel it's a waste to use it on her instead of himself, which is VERY in character for her. She sees genuine affection as "stupid sentimentality" and doesn't really embrace that sentimentality until Darillium it seems.
@@littleredruri yep, always made sense like that to me tbh.
He was probably happy to see her cause even he thought for the longest time that his 11 would be his last, he probably thought he would never see her again.
It did not help that River looked like she was forcing herself on a deeply uncomfortable Eleventh Doctor who was squirming awkwardly. It's a vibe but it's not a romantic vibe.
I really do not like this couple. I've never understood it, never enjoyed it, and that was before all the weird timeline/free will issues, so I am here for this video
Shup up, Rose fangirl.
@@mayotango1317 shut it
@@mayotango1317 👎👎👎
@@mayotango1317 You mean, "Shut up, person who likes good writing, how dare you have reasons for disliking something"?
@@lighttheangel7955 Yeah, yes. RTD never changes. Is the same cheesy and soap opera weirdo.
It's kind of like an enemies-to-lovers arranged marriage, with some Stockholm Syndrome on River's part.
I mean her "fixed point in time" was to get trapped forever in a comfortable digital prison, so it makes sense.
it feels more like they groomed River to love the Doctor and the Doctor at least at first just kinda went along with it.
The Doctor's life depends on River falling in love with him, and he knows this from their first meeting. If she doesn't fall in love with him, she doesn't sacrifice herself at the Library, and his whole future is changed. Looking at it through that lens, you could easily argue that everything he does in his relationship with her is calculated to achieve that end of her falling in love. There doesn't need to be any sincere emotion on his part. It's not a great love story; it's pulling strings.
essentially it was an arranged marriage by time I don't believe they necessarily in love but I do believe they grew fond of each other
Yes, totally agree. I never felt ANY chemistry between Eleven and River. I really liked her and her 'mystery' in Silence in the library, but her storyline afterwards was just weird and her character all over the place. She alternates between competent scientist, chaotic neutral-to-good badass, harassing psycho, and whiny fangirl. IMHO, let's kill Hitler was the main assassination of her character and the romantic plot as well, and so sexist it's actually hard to watch.
You have a good point. 11 always felt like a little kid most of the time. Like in The Lodger it was like he'd never known anything about Earth. Like a toddler learning new things. So how could he be in love when he acts like that. He gets better with Clara. Not by much but some. I guess losing Amy and Rory had him grow up.
But the romance did feel more genuine with 12. It's a shame that episode couldn't have ended with them just flying off in the Tardis for another adventure and saving her final days for later and given her and 12 more adventures.
If Capaldi had been her main husband doctor I think we would look at the whole relationship differently. His relationship with Clara seemed more impactful than with his wife.
I ultimately never bought the fact that 11 was River's Doctor. I just never felt the chemistry like she had with Tennant or even Capaldi.
THANK YOU! I have never liked River. I even wrote a long Tumblr post about how toxic & abusive she is. The Doctor never made any suggestions that he actually loves her romantically.
And I can’t get past her slapping him 3 times. That’s not love.
I always thought that the Doctors interest in River was simply because she was an anomaly. He likes the mystery and the wild nature of their meetings and partings, she’s not someone he can easily predict, and that’s fun to him. We all know the Doctor loves fun 😂 It always seemed more of a, “Okay, I’ll play along cause I want to see where this goes,” rather than a romance from his end.
Yeah, it definitely felt weird. I like to make sense of Capaldi's tears with that lens though. Like, their relationship was awkward and nonsensical, but could part of his sadness be regret that their relationship could never be what they might have both "deserved"?
So is normal that a 19 years old teenager Rose is in love with the Doctor?
@@mayotango1317 Why not? He represents a way for Rose to live a bigger life than she ever would on her own.
@@valolafson6035 Is like a teacher likes his young student.
The relationship between the Doctor and River was something I never particularly liked either. I would say it’s at it’s peak in Silence in the Library where we know literally nothing about River except that she is obviously hugely important to the Doctor, but we don’t know why beyond our best guess being maybe she’s a future companion. Beyond that I hated damn near every creative decision made for her. I hated her being part Time Lord, because her getting Time Lord powers from being conceived in the Tardis seemed like a massive ass-pull. I hated the part about her being a child soldier/assassin who was raised to kill the Doctor but falling in love with him because it made her a badly written yandere whose whole personality is she’s in love with the object of her obsession and likes to murder stuff. It’s also pretty clear to me that the Doctor never actually loved River but was simply going through the motions because it’s better to be friends with the yandere, in the same way in Future Diary Yukiteru starts out by stringing Yuno along simply because she’s terrifying when angry and is the only thing keeping him alive. To me the thing that solidifies the Doctor never actually loving River is once she dies at the library and her consciousness is uploaded he never goes back to see her. She’s put away where she can’t bother him anymore and he’s done with her and the fake relationship he’d maintained.
Glad I'm not the only one who sees that. For me this whole "love story" was one of the most painful things to watch in the entire show and I glad it's over (kinda). Also I don't like River Song intervine in classic Doctors stories in Big Finish.
It makes no sense to put her in classic stories since ten didn't know her!
I KNEW there was something I didn't like about River's story....or Moffat Who in general.
River is one of my all-time favourite Who characters. You’re right in that they weren’t really in love or a real couple, but that sort of fitted their characters. They’re both time travellers who have taken on a lot of responsibility and who have been through so much alone that they don’t really know how to have a direct one-to-one relationship. The marriage is an act, to accommodate River’s love for the Doctor with the fact that he cares about her deeply, but doesn’t love and may not be capable of loving her in that way. River chooses this dynamic too; she chooses to love the Doctor as the ultimately solitary, wild adventurer he is- in part because she may not be capable of that relationship either. In the Angels Take Manhattan, the Doctor in one of his more raw and wounded moments asks River to stay travelling with him, and she refuses. River insists on maintaining that part-time relationship because there should only be “one psychopath per TARDIS,” alluding to she nor the Doctor being normal enough or human enough to settle into a full-time partnership. The Doctor changes of course; the Doctor in the Husbands of River song and the fourteenth who settles down with the Noble-Temple family seemed like they might have more of that capacity in them. But either way, I think their dynamic works. River embraces the life of a time traveller, and just because the adventures she routinely escapes from Stormcage for are somewhat pre-destined, doesn’t mean she’s not living them as her bright and thrill-seeking self
The big question I've always had about their relationship is "WHY do they love each other?" For River, it seems she was conditioned at birth to obsess over killing him, only for the obsession to twist from negative to positive when they do meet but it does feel partially libido-driven on top of a very sudden change of heart.
Meanwhile for The Doctor... I genuinely couldn't tell you. The more they get to know her, the more they seem incompatible - she likes guns and sex and making the tough decisions even if people get hurt, he's an ace pacifist who wants to ensure everybody lives. The whole thing just doesn't ring true to me.
Day of the Moon kind of references that during the showdown with the Silence. The Doctor points out she likes shooting people and literally says "I shouldn't like that. Kind of do, a bit.", showing he doesn't care that she's violent. Which is strange. It could be a simple case of mischaracterisation, but it could also be a sign of a toxic relationship. The Doctor is so in love with her that he ignores the bad stuff she does. Which could've opened up to an interesting story of River getting worse and worse and the Doctor turning a blind eye until he has to be told by Amy and Rory to open his eyes and stop her.
She's the yin to his yang. They balance each other out.
Thank you for this video. I totally agree with you in every point. I can't see love between these two.
Since River's introduction in the library, I was waiting to see their chemistry and their relationship developing, but it kinda never does. Everything feels forced. It feels like the Doctor is just following the script because he knows things need to happen the way they happen until their last date and the whole sonic screwdriver thing. Because she told him that's how it happens.
I do believe the Doctors cares for River, that he loves her in some way, but he is not "in love" with her.
The relationship between the Doctor and Rose was a lot more believable.
I came to the series after so many of my friends lauded it and were firmly ensconced in the lore. I knew generally about River Song and how beloved she was so I eagerly awaited the development of her character.
I love Alex Kingston.
And Silence in the library is one of my favorite episodes sets in the series.
But I was perplexed by every other episode with River Song. She seemed like a different character. At what point did she become someone who had genuine care and affection for her archeology team who had seemed so happy to come back together inside the computer simulation? When did that River emerge?
Really saddened by the tragedy of her obsession with the doctor who really only seemed to love her in the way one loves a distant blood relative - because they are part of your history and heritage and connected to you by blood. The doctor was fond of her because she was a recurring character in his life and because he had been so fond of the Ponds. But no indication of anything more.
The only episode where I sensed genuine affection from the Doctor was The Husbands of River Song.
I would have liked to see River meet Jodie Whitaker's Doctor. I think they would've had a lot of chemistry and affection.
And I would've liked to have seen the Doctor give River his true name out of genuine need in an organically emotional situation, rather than feel like a calculation from the Doctor who wondered if it was time to do it yet or not.
I highly doubt Jodie would have had the same chemistry under chibnal
@@GalvatronoverI genuinely loved Jodie Whitaker's Doctor and enjoyed many of the episodes in that era even though, I may not have loved some of the directions they took the canon of Dr. who.
I loved the combination of companions and the performer they chose for the Master - though I'm so sick of the repetitive unchanging villainery of the Master. Every time the Master shows up, I'm like, "oh, it's them again. Sigh."
Completely agree with everything you said. Tbh I find the way River seems to sexualize the Doctor (which is only absent in Silence in the library) pretty creepy, bordering on consent issues. The whole thing always had some kind of Stalker dynamic for me. Zero romantic vibes.
very good point about stalker part
I haven't watched it yet - but I never vibed with 11 & River. However I do think 12 truly loved her finally.
This. I hated the pair until 12 was there. Capaldi killed it
She was so much more suited for 12. Too bad we only had 1 episode with them.
and even 12 spend much more time mourning for other people (especially Clara) while moved on from River soon
Nah, you're alright, I agree. It's not love, it's obsession for River, and obligation for The Doctor.
i remember being so intrigued by river conceptually when i first watched the library two-parter. their dynamic was PERFECT for the situation they were in: ten's clear discomfort against river's attempts in vain to hide her disappointment and heartbreak. the idea of time-traveling lovers meeting constantly in reverse is such a tragic one, and our POV alongside the doctor's in their first meeting does its job perfectly. when river showed up again in her first 11th doctor episode, i remember getting really excited, realizing that she'd be a recurring character and we'd get to explore the tragedy of their relationship and watch it develop on the doctor's side as it decayed on hers, and eventually maybe even see their last meeting (from the doctor's pov) as described in silence of the library. and then none of that happened until her final episode with capaldi. for all the reasons you so elegantly stated in this video, this kind of romance in this kind of situation is inherently a tragic one, and the fact that it was only treated as such in river's first appearance and last was one of the biggest arrows through my heart watching the moffat era. classic moffat tho, ey? incredible sci-fi ideas with very poor consideration to their themes and how characters act within them.
I personnaly love the unique relationship they have and I think the story of it is so interesting and also really sad. When River kisses the Doctor in the second episode of the 6th season, seeing that it is the first time for him and realizing that it is the last time for her and that she's approaching to the moment when the Doctor will not even know her... I think it is just so sorrowful and heartbreaking. I think even if indeed their relationship is born with obligation and obsession, for me we can't say that there is absolutely nothing between them. I think even if it was kinda wrote for them and "forced" because of the complexity of their relationship with the time, they ended up really caring for each other, even the Doctor towards River in my opinion.
As I said, their relationship is unique and that makes it so interesting. I also think it shouldn't be compared to the relationship between Rose and the Doctor as I saw a lot of people doing, because those are completely different kind of love and relation, as they are different persons, with a different experience with the Doctor - also even out of the context of the serie, I generally think it is impossible to love the ame way two persons in your life, I mean by that you can love several persons with the same intensity during you life but still it will not be the same with every of those persons because they will obviously all be different. In that way, I prefere thinking that the Doctor loved River in a different way that he loved Rose, without talking about how much he loved both of them.
Is what I'm trying to explain understandable ? I'm not a native english-speaker btw
I’m not a fan of River, and her “relationship” with the doctor is unbearable. Thank you for making this. I’ve never found anyone who agrees with me lol.
There was genuinely no romance with them. Truly awful relationship building. “Believe they’re in love because we keep saying they are.” Nah, give me some evidence. At least a little bit!
This bothered me so much especially on a recent re-watch. I think part of the problem is that Moffat has clearly written his own opinions on men and women and relationships (as stated in interviews, that women just want to get married where as men can manage much better and for longer without women/relationships) into Matt Smith's Doctor. After how heart breakingly sad David Tennant's response to her death is in their last episode, seeing Matt Smiths Doctor essentially try and run away from/escape her the first time they interact that we as the audience gets to see is just so disconnected and feels so wrong. It honestly feels like he hates her the whole season. Its the first time I really noticed how often Moffat 'self inserts' in his writing.
When we first see her with Ten, her actions seem self-sacrificing. Later, when we know more about her, we realize she has no choice. If Ten dies, there will be no Eleven to have her parents on the TARDIS.
If Dr Who wasn't a kids' show and Moffat was a stronger writer there could actually be a really interesting dark exploration of free will, agency, consent and love. Two people getting married and gaslighting each other into falling in love, all because everything around them is telling them it's supposed to happen - I think there's a lot of complex layers and themes you could explore with that.
I've always felt iffy about this relationship and I never knew why. Thanks for putting it into words better than i ever could haha
Tbh, I'm not a huge fan of the Doctor and River's relationship either. I think River's intro with Ten was handled really well, and I think her final episode with Twelve was quite sweet and touching and tragic. But imo, nothing that happens in the middle really works. And I think a part of that is because it never takes the time to explore the complexities that this type of relationship would bring, or even show the two of them bonding or developing feelings for each other. So much of their time together happens offscreen that by the time River's arc is over, it's still hard to believe in this relationship or the love they supposedly have. Plus, I think Kingston had better chemistry with both Tennant and Capaldi than she did with Matt Smith.
Some people will argue that the Doctor/River is better than the Doctor/Rose because the Doctor/River relationship is more equal. But while I do think that's the case to an extent, in that they are both independent and do their own things --- it's also notable that River was raised almost from birth with her entire life revolving around the Doctor, which in and of itself creates a bizarre power dynamic. AND, even by the time we meet River in her final story with Twelve, she's still holding the Doctor up on a pedestal, believing he can't love her because he's just too important and too special. River is often touted as a character who knows and understands the Doctor and has this tight bond with him, but they rarely talk about anything that really matters --- at least not that we see on screen. And to me, the very fact that she seems to wholeheartedly believe love is too "small" and "ordinary" for him means that she apparently doesn't know him very well at all. At least, not in the modern context.
I know a lot of people love the Doctor and River, but while I think it was an interesting concept to explore and I love Alex Kingston, I never really liked the way it was executed. Her story was a convoluted mess as well. I have such complicated feelings about series 6 as a whole.
Something I love about your videos is how you explain your perspective but never try to force it on others. You don’t just say “the doctor and river’s relationship is bad” but you say “it doesn’t work for me and this is why” which is quite refreshing and I really love the discussion and reasons you put forth. Personally, I do quite like their relationship, but definitely agree that the writing in parts left a bit to be desired
We never saw him tell her his name. We've never seen them fall in love. Or being in love. It was just always foreshadowed. I've been waiting for these episodes, but they never came.
I said it before and I´m saying it again: Rose was THE love story of New Who. Both 9 and 10 were amazing with her. Love that couple
I disagree. My personal problem with Rose and the Doctor is that it doesn't feel real. Mainly because Rose doesn't love the Doctor. She loves the 10th Doctor. Do you think she would love the 12th Doctor? Or the 1st? Or 2nd? 3rd? 6th? 13th? I don't.
Also, to me, 9 and Rose felt like a father/daughter relationship. You have Rose, a young 19 year old who never had her father, meets a man who looks the same age as her dad would be and he shows her the universe, teaching her lessons about herself and everything around her.
Then the 9th Doctor. The man who just lost his entire family and world. He meets Rose, a young girl who gives him a new meaning in life and shows him that he can still find joy and happiness in the universe. He doesn't think her boyfriend is good enough for her and would rather her date Adam, the more intelligent and high standing in life. And then Jack comes along, the handsome rogue and catches Roses attention. The Doctor is protective and doesn't like Jack because he just sees a womanising con man who will just break Rose's heart. Until Jack proves himself to be better than that by saving the day.
@@mrdr0161 I disagree with you. I don't think Rose felt the 9th doctor like a father. I think she actually loves him, at first not romantically but like a friend, a companion, and later romantically. She grew up her love for him in a very special and prpbably strange way. Then she meet 10. And fell in love again now romantically at first but it makes sense because he is much younger and atractive. She already loved him but now there is another feeling growing up which is atraction. I believe Rose would love 11 the same way. I believe it would be difficult with 12 but I don't think she would not love him AT ALL. She would. But I think that would be more like a relationship in which she stayed the same age and he grew up, that kind of trope, like in inmortal and mortal relationships in movies and series. She would love 13 easily again. 14 OF COURSE, and 15... Well... She would love him but probably not romantically because 14 is still there.
yes
Very good video! You raise a lot of interesting points. Iirc in an interview Steven Moffat said that the character was based on the Time Traveller's Wife and that the idea was that River told the Doctor they were married in the future in a way to "trap" him, so its funny some of the stuff you bring up here. Keep it up!
Here's the thing. You're not wrong here, but at the same time I find Husbands of River Song absolutely delightful and I'm not sure they're supposed to be a "good" couple
I seem to recall that when the doctor first meets River before she dies, he says that time can be rewritten, and she says, not those times not one line don’t you dare.
I can agree that pieces of it were forced, but found I absolutely enjoyed the performance those playing the characters gave. I think the doctor eventually found a way to love River, even if it wasn’t how she loved him. (In her own words, raised to be obsessed with him so of course who else was she going to fall in love with)
As someone else commented, I enjoyed River's first and last appearances...but that's about it. I never bought hers and 11's relationship, and I wish they hadn't made her the child of Amy and Rory as well as the TARDIS. I feel like she's just there to prop up the plot most of the time and is made out to be super-important and perfect without any actual characterisation which irritates me. She's a very flat character IMO. No disrespect to Alex Kingston who had to work with what she had.
Nope I’m gonna have to completely agree with on this. I never like the Doctor and Rivers relationship and they never really came across as in love. I picked up on the similarities to the Time traveler wife as well which is just or more icky. The Doctor is told he loves River song, that he must have because because he gave her a sonic screwdriver and she knows his name, he never has the chance to develop feelings for her, it more like, oh well apparently I love love and took you on a date to so and so so I’d better do that then I guess. And River had an obsession with him as child that could easily become confused with love, it why I had a problem with the time travers wife.
I actually feel so validated seeing a video from a major DW channel that criticises the Doctor and River’s relationship. I never liked their relationship or River for that matter. I feel like River’s first appearance in the Library/Forest two-parter set up such high expectations that this very deep and emotional relationship was coming. But then it wasn’t delivered. I feel like if he wanted to make their bond as strong as he implied, he should have made River a main, regular companion, and not just someone who pops up every now and then, is oh so badass and sassy and then disappears again. It was just a really badly developed relationship. I never felt invested in it at all. As you said: super forced, lack of chemistry and lack of genuine bonding. Maybe with Twelve at the end, it finally felt somewhat genuine, but it wasn’t enough to redeem the whole thing.
Definitely agree. The worst crime is the lack of chemistry, imo. Second worst is that from her first appearance she felt like a badly written Mary Sue with manufactured coolness instead of ACTUALLY being cool.
I've never warmed to River, and this video explains it perfectly. Her and eleven never had any chemistry and her cringey flirtations almost came across like a creepy couger (ironically)
I've just finished rewatching s6 and yeah. I agree. personally, I think that out-of-order relationships are something that the show really ought to explore more, considering the premise, but river and dr who simply don't work. it has the vibes of a marriage where one party got knocked up and the two had to get married to save face, except the circumstances forcing them together are knowing each others' futures, not archaic social customs. the way in which the two interact never has a clear 'they're both at the same point' convergence, so one always has all of their love in the future meanwhile the other has it all in their past. it doesn't play out the interest that sort of relationship has, not to mention the incredibly unequal power dynamics. what prevents river (or dr who, but river is in that position first) from lying and saying something that isn't the case to keep dr who under her control? what prevents the relationship from going full-on abusive? unless it's a fixed point, inaccuracies and lies could easily be explained as time being in flux. I also think the fact most adventures between the two are offscreen adds to the lack of genuine and freely chosen connection, as it adds to the fact we only ever see them at rather extreme ends of their time together, with the angels take manhattan being the most equilibrious moment. anyway, I think the relationship could've made for a good piece of horror due to the lack of free will on either river's or dr who's part, but instead it's played as love despite the odds. but it's not, and it really is just surface level and quite honestly? moffat has a habit of it, if you consider clara's 'impossible girl' arc.
THANK YOU for this assessment. It's an accurate picture of how I've viewed River and the Doctor over the years. I never felt they gelled; it always felt forced to me, like Moffat had some crazy Mary Sue issues and wrote River in to explore them. I like River as a character, just not as a love interest for the Doctor. And boy, that scene in The Angels Take Manhatten where he heals her wrist and she just storms off has frustrated me no end. Here he did something truly loving and sacrificial for her--and she acts like it's the worst thing he could have done, and throws it back in his face. Blah. I also did kind of feel she was better with Twelve, but that was more their age--they looked the right age for each other, where she always looked too old next to Matt Smith's baby face. Of course this is not a popular opinion, but I much prefer the Eleventh Doctor with Clara. I felt he had oodles of chemistry going with her, particularly in The Snowmen with her Victorian echo. It's a fact that Smith told Coleman to watch old Hepburn/Tracey movies to get a feel for their interplay. Something I doubt he ever discussed with Kingston.
So is normal that a teenager Rose is in love with a ancient Time Lord.
She acts like it's the worst thing he's ever done because she doesn't see herself as worth an expenditure of his literal life force.
@@mayotango1317 I think it's normal for the teenager to be smitten with an older man who's an adventurer able to show her all of time and space. Whether you agree with his reciprocating (or even whether you think he did reciprocate) is another question.
@@mayotango1317 Well, when you look at how many teens and 20 year Olds who fawn over David Tennant, a 52 year old married man, I'd say yeah, that's fairly realistic and normal.
@tjet34, in my opinion, since it is an expenditure of his life force, she should appreciate it even more, and be honored he chose to honor and love her in that manner, instead of throwing it back in his face. I'd be honored if someone chose to do something like that for me. It would show me I was loved and cherished.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one that was completely confused about this relationship. Personally, I thought they were great together in the first episode together, and River would've made a great companion, just not a romantic one. But honestly, The New Adventures of Doctor Who was always trying to create romances that made no sense. I mean they tried putting him with Rose (and technically did in the end), even though she had a "boyfriend" who also felt forced. There were a bunch of other ones I could name, but that would take too long. Donna was my favorite companion, even if she wasn't a romantic interest.
It's interesting to look at the Doctor and Rover's relationship as a metaphor for arranged marriages.
The doctor and river did spend 24 years living together like a true couple in delirium during that time there love for each other became real
I never liked River much, either. I always remember her first appearance. The instant that she found out the Doctor was meeting her for the first time, she lost all faith in him. Just like that, she decides that he cannot be relied upon. Because, according to her, he wasn't really "the Doctor" yet, because apparently he was nothing before he met HER. Lecturing to his current companion, completely dismissing Donna's own faith! I guess all those times he saved the universe prior to their relationship were just pure luck! Sheesh, what an ego. Just couldn't get OVER herself!
I don't think she's saying she made him the Doctor. And she doesn't decide he can't be relied on upon, she still trusts her. She just says he isn't her Doctor. This isn't the man she knows. Also, from her POV, the Doctor is inexperienced. From when the doctor first met her and when she first met him, he had gone through so much. The events of Journey's End, the Time Lord Victorius, the End of Time, the Pandorica, A Good Man Goes To War. That's a lot of trauma that had affected him
@@mrdr0161Sorry, I wrote out a very, very lengthy rebuttal, but UA-cam apparently thought it was spam and erased it. It's late, and I'm really not in the mood to try to reconstruct it, so please take my word that I made an excellent case.
Long story short, it centered on the section of dialogue in Forest of the Dead in which River talks about how she "wishes the Doctor was here", and how great "her" Doctor is, and when Ten says, no, he actually is the Doctor, she says, "Yeah, some day". I just found it tremendously condescending.
I mean, after saving the Universe a thousand times and enduring the horrors of the Time War this particular companion declares that he's not really the Doctor because he's not HER Doctor, and she doesn't know if he can handle their situation in the Library, which was, let's face it, a fairly standard monster scenario. Just rubbed me the wrong way.
This is all fair. The Doctor is a very damaged person, and so is River (and I feel the same about Henry and Claire - imprinting on him as a young child, she doesn’t have much choice either). The thing is, I don’t think they’re meant to seem like a healthy couple, and the tragedy of their relationship is frequently touched upon. The Doctor is intrigued by this mystery woman. River is obsessed but also has her own badass life. I’m glad they get to have some fun together throughout the timey-wimey stuff. It bothers me much more when Amy & Rory’s relationship doesn’t make sense, like in Asylum of the Daleks. We don’t get to see any normal romantic dates for anyone because that’s boring TV on an adventure show - it happens all offscreen. We also don’t see “Space Florida” or any normal fun travels with companions where nothing bonkers happens because, again, it wouldn’t be exciting TV.
When it comes to bootstrap paradoxes, there isn’t a lot of surprise involved, so ultimately I think the question for viewers is, “Are you having fun?” I enjoy River a lot, but I also get why some don’t. See, fans can be reasonable! :) I did get quite tired of saying goodbye to River over and over.
I feel bad for river tbh she never got her own life pretty much.
THANK YOU for putting these feelings I have into words. I have never bought into River and The Doctor, but could never put my finger on why!
Because it is weird, the doctor smashing a child is just weird. Doesn’t matter what she looks like, she’s an infant compared to him.
An interesting perspective I hadn’t given much thought to before. Using this as a jumping off point: it seems more like an arranged, loveless marriage they undertake out of necessity or obligation wherein the couple eventually find love, but it takes their entire lives.
Ellie from Whoculture definitely will exterminate this video
im with her
@@Arizonaguy1856 no idea who that is, but I'm with her too xD
I was thinking the same thing
@@andynovak8347 it's a spin-off channel of whatculture
It's all i could think about 😂
'My bespoke psychopath.' That line from Matt's Doctor says a lot. I do believe River loves all versions of the Doctor but what form that love takes changes. It is another complicated relationship similar to the Doctor and the Master. I could see versions of River working with the Master, and other versions trying to kill each other. It is kind of sad. The Master and River orbit the Doctor and the Doctor feels strongly about both of them. I do think the Doctor loves River and different regenerations love her differently. I think your view on this is interesting.
River had zero chemistry with Any of the Doctor's, I never bought he fact she was the doctor's supposed wife and her storyline in season 6 is what started the downhill spiral for the modern show, so convoluted and the fact she was Amy's daughter was just so flat and dull and didn't mean or lead up to anything. She feels like more of a gimmick character than an actual companion, just there to deliver flirting and innuendo dialogue without any substance.
Still better that Rose Tyler melodrama romantic soap opera.
@@mayotango1317 but at least the Doctor and Rose connection was there on screen, I didn't like that story either but it didn't derail the show Ike river did
@@phantomsidious2934 River is kinda Romana in classic, a equal to the Doctor.
@@phantomsidious2934 Sorry but Rose almost destroy the universe to get back with his Doctor and she never cares.
@@mayotango1317 umm...to a certain extent...but I would argue that Romana learnt things from the doctor and earned her status as being an equal as her time went on. River just automatically acts like she's his equal because she knows more about his future than the Doctor himself does
Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. I never got the impression that the Doctor was in love with River. Not to say that he didn't love her as a friend, as the daughter of his best friends. But I never believed there was anything romantic about it from his side. River, on the other hand probably was in love - verging on obsessed with Doctor, which I think is understandable given her upbringing. A lot of stock is given to the fact that River was the one he married. And yet people forget that she pretty much forced him into it, in sake of the universe. Their whole relationship (from his POV) was forced. By River revealing to the Doctor that she knew his true name, she had cemented the fact that he would one day now have to, because he knew it already happened. Sorry for the long speech, just to say really that, beyond platonic love, the Doctor was manipulated into having a romantic relationship - in my opinion! Its okay if you don't agree with that.
Never having read the Time Traveller's Wife, I'm shocked by the 'similarities'. Genuinely.
River Song was a great character, just as Captain Jack is a great character, but there was never a hint of real love on the Doctor's part.
Just another companion with a crush on the Time Lord. In 2005, the Doctor described Rose as "just another stupid ape". By 2020 he's married one and is constantly "falling in love" with those apes.
Yeah idk I like the novel but Moffat's obsession with it is tiresome and repetitive. Imagine if I was put in charge of Doctor Who and decided to make 80% of the arcs and character relationships I wrote into homages to Halo. There's a point where homage becomes a disservice to both the work it's in and the work it's referencing.
THEIR RELATIONSHIP WAS SO FORCEED BUT HAD SUCH AN INCREDIBLY POTENTIAL THATS WHAT I DONT LIKE ABOUT MOFFAT😭😭😭😭
I definatly felt like the doctor wasn't really into River but River was obsessed with the doctor because she was brainwashed as a child, and then redirected that murder obsession into romantic love out of guilt and gratefulness when she actually got to know him and he decided to save her life and not retaliate against her because 1. she was his best friends kid 2. he is a generally compassionate person and 3. he had to in order not to mess up the timeline.
Excellent video, I agree. I thought the first episode in the library with Tennant was brilliant and had so much potential for future episodes, but the rest were a bit underwhelming for the reasons you stated.
And it seems kind of out of character for them to just go along with things because that's what time dictates or what she was programmed to do. Their relationship was always going to be doomed and tragic and they'd both understand that the first time they met the other, so what I'd imagine would be that the majority of their relationship would be more as friends as they would both be fighting against "fate" or rather what the timeline dictates. And they would also be trying to avoid the pain that actually having that specific relationship would likely bring if they ever did start to develop romantic feelings. I think ironically that would bring them closer together and could result in a romantic relationship when they are both in the middle-ish (I know the timeline is messy) of their relationship/time knowing each other, but that would be a relationship born out of this unique dynamic that only the two of them share and even in defiance of "fate"/the timeline rather than just engaging in the relationship "because they have to", then they'd inevitably have to start to withdraw their affections which would be tragic as well.
But I guess at the end of the day it's a really hard dynamic to write.
11th has far more chemistry with the TARDIS than he does with River
🤣🤣🤣
There is something so late "2000s-early 2010s" about this dynamic. Where we just accepted stuff with obviously problematic issues and had all of the ~☆feels☆~ about them, and it's only years later you look back and realize that there were so many things wrong with it.
I've always been more interested in the concept and the innerworkings of their relationship than their actual chemistry.
And now I finally understand why this love story never worked for me.
I truly loath the backstory they ended up giving River. It feels so devastatingly flattening to a character who was so interesting. I really wish she had stayed a mystery. To other writers: if you don't have a clear, strong, reasonable backstory for a character already, leave them a mystery. Not everything needs to be explained to be good.
This isn't love,
This is a car crash
Thank you for this video! I never believed the Doctor was in love with her, and every time I tried to explain why to my friends they’d roll their eyes.
You've put into words what I always thought.
Their love story always seemed "iffy" to me but I didn't exactly know why, I just never bought that these two characters loved each other or even had a friendship with many shared adventures. River slapping The Doctor after him healing her broken wrist was the final nail in the coffin for me. After that there was no way for me to believe that their relationship was genuine and healthy.
When i saw the ending of the library two parter and the "love and trust" of the doctor giving river his name and his screwdriver every later meeting feels a little sick, like the doctor is taking advantage of rivers affection just so she can save him later
Not to mention a couple of lines in the impossible astronaut suggesting that rivers feelings are not her own and shes just been brainwashed into loving the doctor
I totally agree, I never felt like River and 11 had chemistry. I stopped watching regularly around the time Clara turned up, so I haven't seen how River and the Doctor interact for myself, but I've never really liked the idea of the Doctor having any kind of romantic relationship.