Composer Career Advice: Stop Throwing Pebbles
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- Опубліковано 24 кві 2021
- In this video we're talking about some important career advice I learned listening to one of my favourite podcasts by Bobby Owsinski. The specific episode is here: bobbyoinnercircle.com/358-lar...
Questions? Vodkastpodcaster[at]gmail[dot]com
Twitter: @GeoffManch
Straight up couldn't agree more. I used to try to fit in with stuff that wasn't quite right, and as soon as I was just doing my own thing I started getting hired.
If you build it they will come.
....or if you have sugar, apparently.
Totally agree with this man. Thanks for sharing your own experiences with this.
Thanks Christopher, really nice to hear from you!!
Great advice! Big part of this process is concept that Rome wasn't build in a day. This is the concept that most people forget. They go out there full of enthusiasm and expect for things to happen in next month or so.
I couldn’t agree more. So many people abandon their projects/channels. There’s one that’s a great example: search for Wikimedia on UA-cam. Guy was completely ahead of his time in both content and animation and out of nowhere up and left the channel. No new videos in 5 years. Pretty sure the growth occurred since he left.
Big fan of your channel dude. I thought you hit the nail on the head with owning your own style on UA-cam. I’ve always worried that if I started one it’d be insincere because I’m just starting out or maybe I don’t know how to edit videos in a way that’s trendy or whatever. But after seeing your channel, and how you just have good content with no frills (no disrespect I genuinely think that’s awesome!) it makes me wanna do it too. Even if it’s just to say “hey I did that, regardless of where it leads”. Thanks again!
This is so true, and something I really needed to hear - thank you for sharing this. I especially loved what you said about "creating your content in good faith".
I really appreciate this video. It helps confirm the steps that I'm taking by being here on UA-cam!
Good advice. Thanks Geoff!
What you’re saying about doing your work/art in good faith is so refreshing to hear. I see a lot of corporate based activity rooted in constant ‘poking’ on social media from artists. Although I understand that approach, for me it dilutes the integrity of the art in question and it puts me off. I feel selfish thinking that way but it’s how I’m wired I guess.
Great outlook to have. I think doing your own thing is the most important part.
Soooo incredibly true! Well articulated, too!
Great take, Geoff! I attempt to apply these methods as I approach people who impact me. Though it is a great reminder (as I am certainly flawed, and ambition can sometimes get the best of me). So, I thank you for the reminder.
True. Stop throwing pebbles and start throwing boulders!:)))
Jokes aside, do your own thing, be you, everyone else is already taken ;) Be as interesting, useful and helpful as you can without betraying yourself or getting in the way and overdoing it. It's hard, it's slow but sooner or later you'll reap something.
I started my channel almost 3 years ago, quite small, nothing fancy, no talking, hardly any tutorial and lots of jams... one of which unintentionally brought me a nice sound design/composing job for an indie horror film... just out of the blue last year in the middle of this pandemic.
No biggie but it's something... and it didn't take any pebbles, only lots of brick layering, day in and day out.
Have fun!
Always fun to hear what works for various folks. I've had crazy things happen by just sending people music (and then meeting them in person obviously helps), but I guess this isn't common?
Like the metaphor and appreciate the encouragement.
In the midst of creating/editing a video essay, and wow it takes time...
...also agree Bobby O is constantly putting out useful info. And I find he is very open and interested to consider podcast guest suggestions from listeners. Shout out to Bobby O.
Great video - also congrats on the iZotope arrangement. :)
Great video, straight to the point even if you're sharing what we need to hear, not what we want to hear. For others trying to transition or expand into cinematic production after developing a writing/producing background more suitable for the traditional music industry, are you like me finding it a bit less symbiotic than you expected? Jeff's video is timely for me because I'm sitting here in a moment of doubt, thinking I don't know what the heck I'm doing... I want to reach out to someone experienced and pick their brain. Pausing for a moment and thinking about if the shoe were on the other foot, I might be willing to help out someone in an area were I have expertise, expecting nothing in return, but it would still be a bit annoying. Especially if it's happening on a frequent basis or I'm having a particularly bad day. Thanks for stopping me Jeff!
BTW, I don't know if suggesting topics for future videos falls into that category but if it does I apologize. If not, here are a few examples of the specific types of challenges people like me may be experiencing. I'm not asking you to answer my questions, but perhaps some iteration of these examples might make a good video subject if any of them resonate with you. One preemptive caveat - I know "there are no rules" but that doesn't mean there aren't some pretty good general guidelines to follow.
My background (to qualify "people like me"): 20+ years musician, 2+ years learning music production, almost entirely a pop/rock background, now trying to transition into cinematic application
1) Songwriting approach: Not that scoring is "easy" in any scenario, but it's especially hard when you aren't writing to fit a specific scene or application. Before I get descriptive, the question I'm getting at is are there best practices for composing when you aren't writing for a specific pre-determined application? I wrote a song this week called "I Was Made to Make You Cry" that on the surface feels bouncy and cheerful but the placement of minor chords, choice of instruments (Fender Rhodes, Accordion, etc.), and vintage production approach was intended to elicit an emotional release. I want my song to be perceived as a faded and wrinkled photograph of someone who once meant a lot to the viewer. I see the application as music for the "redemption" scene, a cut to flashbacks of "the good times", or the "where are they know" captions that roll prior to the credits at the end of a documentary. For someone with no industry inroads does it make sense to build a catalog of available music with diversified themes and hope that someone finds something useful in it or attempt to specialize? Am I over thinking this or on a completely different wave length than how things actually work? You mentioned building your own small hill, which I agree with, but is that hill more noticeable when you specialize?
2) Structural build of cinematic songs: As in #1, from the perspective of writing without a pre-determined application. Whether pop, classical, or just about any other music style, there are some fairly standard structures of verse/chorus/bridge or build/climax/resolve. When I pay attention to music placement in TV, movies, docs, etc. I notice the length of a specific piece rarely exceeds 10-20 seconds, so none of the structures I'm used to actually matter (or at least not in the same intervals or duration). In my previously mentioned song I structured it with the intent of providing 10-20 second sections with varying degrees of intensity, that could be extracted to fit a mood. Funny thing is, it was a subconscious decision not premeditated, which I discovered while struggling to make my automation's make sense. Regardless of how I got there it seems like a good idea to build pieces with clear extraction points. What are your thoughts on the structure of songs you write when you haven't been hired to write for a specific scene or application?
3) Non-standard instrument placement within the mix. I'll start with the question before providing the background. When considering listening/viewing platforms and the often "background" nature of cinematic application, how should we look at track placement in the stereo field and the level of intensity regarding rhythm/back-beat? Sticking with the same song, something else caught me off guard when I tried to place and mix in drums and percussion. Never-say-never but in most commercial music it's rare to deviate from norms around the center placement of drums in the stereo field, the punch of the kick, how snare interacts with other inst., etc. After a few hours of failing to incorporate drums and percussion in a way that wouldn't be distracting from my mental image of how my song might be used, I realized the Zither and Guitarron tracks were already providing the drive and cadence I wanted. However, there was still a bit of energy lacking. I ended up infusing a Log Drum as the primary percussion, reinforced with brush drums. I didn't duck anything because I actually wanted a bit of that "hazy rumble". Both tracks were pushed way back in the mix and not entirely straight up the middle. If I listen to the song with critical ears for radio airplay, it's not a good mix, especially the drums. Conversely, I think it makes sense for the applications I mentioned earlier. Is a typical client going to recognize that drums or anything else can be pulled back in a mix or are they going to be immediately turned off by a production that appears lacking when left to stand alone without the visual context? Final question. When I produce for pop/rock I consider things like mono compatibility on a very limited basis. Basically if someone consumes music in mono, on a phone, or laptop speakers then my music probably isn't for them. I can do that as I'm not in a Boy Band or targeting mainstream music listeners. I'm honestly not trying to be snobby but when it comes to what I record as just music, I'm my target audience. My mentality for cinematic use is completely the opposite though. Putting aside for a moment things like 3D/VR, complex/enhanced speaker configurations, and any emerging audio technologies (that is if we can), should we view compatibility roughly the same as for commercial radio? Higher? It's quite confusing as I don't see how you can produce for surround sound and still have it work in mono.
Very interesting perspective. I think you could apply the same advice to almost any profession. It might be harder to build than being handed a chance, but it is potentially more freeing. Now I'm going to take your and my own words to heart.
Completely agree here, especially now more than ever. You can make your own opportunities with very little capitol and resources.
Solid advice!
A refreshing and fine framing of a big issue. Feel free to do more philosophical videos like this ;-). Thank you.
Thank you Roy, really needed to read a comment like this today.
Getting some real “Field of Dreams” vibes from this one. Lol. Great advice regardless.
Thanks David!
Bobby O is great
Short, sweet, and very well put, cheers
And you know it’s tough for me to be short
@@ManchesterMusic hehe true, but it really did not need to be longer, excellently done
Yep. Goes beyond composing too. I’ve been doing this with piano covers of hip hop and pop songs and getting opportunities to make custom piano parts with some big artists. 😳
What if the stories continues: And one morning, the owner steps in front of the house and is blinded by light. He is puzzled and follows the source of this light, which leads him to a pile of pebbles in front of one of his windows. And while he at first is annoyed by it, he soon notices a little diamond among pebbles. Clearly visible, for no other pebbles reflect the sun like the diamond does. So he picks it up, looks around, walks down the hill, and asks the people, who has thrown it. Someone raises his or her arm and the owner of the house invites him in, asking everyone else to go home. They soon realize they have much to give to one another and live happily ever after.
But seriously, this is good advice for just about all types of business. I work primarily in marketing and get a lot of requests for collaboration, usually a sales pitch without prior conversation and mostly poorly written. So, I know right away that I have no reason to investigate further and decline. When I look up those people, they usually post a lot of uninteresting, trivial, and often dumb stuff all over. So, that is a definite no. So, the other advice might be to actually pay attention to what you post online. However, the smaller the company, the more likely this sort of tactic might work, often because they can't afford anyone that is really good at what they are doing or simply because the market is so oversaturated that good people have to offer their services for little money. I do not know whether this translates, but I can image that in the music industry pebbles might not work well for well-known figures or companies, but that it might help getting a foot in the door, especially if you are among those who do not throw pebbles but little diamonds, so to speak. What is your impression?
Good point !! Greetings .
Thank you! Cheers!
Sound advice! 👍
Glad you think so!
Great advise! People do get annoyed when other people over-advertise themselves. But on the other hand, no one would know a person if the person did not promote at all 😂 It is hard to find the balance between these two extremes, and it takes time to find the right balance just for yourself.
Edit: oops, there are ambiguities after I changed let me rephrase it, sorry if it sounds offensive before _(:з」∠)_ I didn't mean it
Focus on become - undeniably good,
Sir how to vocal edit like bollywood song
I'm curious about your thoughts on people taking a "calculated" approach to youtube? Not that it goes against trying to make your own thing - but I wonder how much if affects the "authenticity" of something...
There is probably a better way to phrase this question
Can you say more about a ‘calculated’ approach?
@@ManchesterMusic Was mostly referring to people who start a youtube channel with the intention of strictly using youtube strategies (trend jacking and clickbait ish content for ex.) to grow as fast as possible - seen a few channels that seemingly explode overnight...
It hit me now tho that maybe it's just basic youtubing at this point? Maybe you can be a "sell out" and still be authentic doing your own thing? Like making covers of popular songs but in your own preferred style? (I'm totally not guilty)
Probably a stupid question but where do you find the Bobby Owsinski podcast?
Check the description bud.
Where can I buy Yamaha NS-10 ? Studio monitors
You can only get em used. I found mine in a private group on Facebook.
Build a hill?
Got it. (I'm sure there are UA-cam videos to show me how to).
Build a house on top of the hill? (Mmmmm UA-cam again).
Well okay.
Fill the house with sugar in case any famous composers call round?
I'm on it!
Thanks Jeff. (Who knew that music could be so visceral?)
Lol, followed instructions perfectly
Every sound mixer / music person on you tube love to share their analogies. Ive heard it all from mixed candy in a jar, sorting separate clothes into draws, card games , game of chess and building hills and stop throwing pebbles the stories go on and on and on and on. All pearls of wisdom I’m sure. All wannabe Confucius prophets. Cue eye roll.
Thanks for your comment!
ok, as far as metaphors go that is a clunker.
Thanks for your comment!