202 B - Prokhorovka: An Avalanche of Armor - WW2 - July 13, 1943
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- Опубліковано 12 лип 2022
- As dawn broke on 12th July 1943, the spearheads of the German II SS Panzer Corps and the Soviet 5th Guards Tank Army were shuffling into their positions. The battle of Zitadelle was entering a pivotal moment. Would the elite of the German Panzers finally achieve a breakthrough into open country? Or would the might of the Soviet Tank Army break them in a pre-emptive attack? The battle and fate of Operation Zitadelle was to be decided in front of a small village called Prokhorovka.
Special thanks to Jason Shafer, pattygman46 and QuinnTheSpin for their support during this episode's premiere
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Hosted by: Indy Neidell
Director: Astrid Deinhard
Producers: Astrid Deinhard and Spartacus Olsson
Executive Producers: Astrid Deinhard, Indy Neidell, Spartacus Olsson
Creative Producer: Marek Kamiński
Community Management: Ian Sowden
Written by: Indy Neidell and Markus Linke
Research by: Markus Linke
Map animations by: Daniel Weiss
Map research by: Sietse Kenter
Edited by: Miki Cackowski
Artwork and color grading by: Mikołaj Uchman
Sound design by: Marek Kamiński
Colorizations by:
Norman Stewart - oldtimesincolor.blogspot.com/
Daniel Weiss
Mikołaj Uchman
Source literature list: bit.ly/SourcesWW2
Archive footage: Screenocean/Reuters - www.screenocean.com
Image sources:
Bundesarchiv
mil.ru
IWM AYY 496/2-1
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Brightarm Orchestra - On the Edge of Change
Johan Hynynen - Dark Beginning
Max Anson - Darkness Closing In
Dream Cave - Choirs of War
Jo Wandrini - To War!
Max Anson - The End is Nigh
Jon Bjork - Sparring Partner
Cobby Costa - Missing the Subtext
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Is this the vreat tank battle?
And this is the tank battle that created the the legend of the German tank ace Wittman
Fields of Prokhorovka
Where the heat of battle burned
Suffered heavy losses
And the tide of war was turned
Driving back the Germans
Fighting on four fronts
Hunt them out of Russia
Out of Soviet land
I've gone back to my keyboard and writing code, sending messages, and resisting the urge to be overly-dramatic in my messages. Still pumped up. One wonders about the emotion on the Soviet side that next morning. They lived through a titanic struggle, they stopped the Germans in their tracks, and the Germans are withdrawing. This summer will not see the Nazi armies rampaging across the Russian countryside. Now, they drive the narrative, they call the shots!
My great grandfather was killed during the advance to Orel
Indy’s storytelling is riveting. I’m sure he has a time machine he uses to witness the events firsthand.
Ha, anyone who was there first hand would have had no idea what was going on until a week later.
And a high-altitude spy plane to get an overview of what is happening... Or perhaps a satellite.
@@TheEvertw But then you would lose the on the ground perspective. You must do both! And more!
He is my favorite narrator of this channel.
@@Briguy1027 no fair!
The various sub-channels use different styles on purpose, Indy narrates events like it is a football match which would be wholly inappropriate for for example the WaH.
The TimeGhost army, with this episode, outdid even your best selves. Your ability to describe such a battle with such clarity is indeed an achievement. Prokhorovka lives on in memory as one of the most horrific armored battles of all times and enabled the Russians to take and hold on to the initiative until the end of the war. Bravo for great work.
Thanks @Eleanor Kett! There isn't another group out there who do things quite like Indy and our production team do 🙂
Like Andy has pointed out before, “Soviets”, not “Russian”, as the Russians only accounted for slightly more than half of the manpower of the Red Army.
Technically it was a series of battles but yeah
But your source is outdated. IT is the narrativ of the sowjet victory. The german armor losses where only 5 Tanks compared to more than 100 of the soviet side. They lost them on there on tank Tranch. This Was no battle, this was a sloughter.
@@francomundkowsky4913 actually I haven't heard any mentions of "soviet victory" by Indy. Although the definitions of victory may be different. The most common is battlefield possession, but sometimes it's about objectives done. So neither side at Prokhorovka could claim victory clearly. Germans didn't break through and retreated, the soviets have lost a lot of tanks, but overall situation looks more like soviet victory, I think. There are a lot of myths about the eastern front. Soviet Army (in 1943 it's not Red anymore, hah) achieved enough victories besides this popular battle. There is no need to invent them
I don't often comment, but I want you to know how much this channel has become a part of my regular schedule. Thanks for all your work!
same here, always look forward to my saturday history time
Too bad there's no bending in these wars. Imagine a channel like this on the wars of the fire nation.
Always strange seeing the weird crossovers of interest here
It's wild to see Tim here of all people. A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one...
I am a UA-cam comment bender
Indy's narration was brilliant as usual. Taking part to this battle must have felt like the whole world was coming to a crushing end
This battle must have felt truly apocalyptic.
For most, it probably truly did
It feels like I'm witnessing history being made. Even after 79 years have passed. Thank you team!
thanks for watching with us @elbeto191291
Fields of Prokhorovka
Where the heat of battle burned
Suffered heavy losses
And the tide of war was turned
Driving back the Germans
Fighting on four fronts
Hunt them out of Russia,
Out of Soviet land
Reinforce the front line
Force the axis to retreat
Send in all the reserves
Securing their defeat
Soldiers Soviet Union, broke the Citadel!
Ruins all the armies, Axis rest in Hell!!
@@elkingoh4543 ...The end of the Third Reich grows near,
Its time, has come to an end!
The end of an era is here,
It's time; to attack!!!
@@rbgerald2469 😂😂😂😂🤣
I haven't 'sat on the edge of my seat' ever in my life. We all know how this offensive ends, but just seeing how close the German were to achieving strategic victories during the offensive has really captivated the audience.
Of course the amazing writing and the passionate performance by Indy coupled with the delicately crafted maps , animations and cut outs seals this as one of the best and most documentaries on this battle that i have ever seen.
This is better than all tv style documentaries out there.
Thanks so much @John Mayfield
Indeed -- though the Soviets had prepared this to such a point that nothing the Wehrmacht could do would have been able to achieve more than a tactical victory. But yes, amid all the work at hand, here the selection of quotes (from both sides) and their narration makes for a truly amaaazing moment, documentary and memory. ty Markus, ty Indy.
I wouldn't really say they were close to a strategic victory at all. It was almost an operational victory, but even if they achieved an encirclement of that force south of Prokhorovka, it's unlikely they could have actually cleared that pocket with the extreme pressure on their flanks. With Model's withdrawal in the north of the Kursk salient, Manstein's southern force was pissing into the wind.
With all that considered, even if the Germans had cleared the pocket, nothing would have changed at a strategic level. Model would still be in retreat. Manstein's forces would be bogged down clearing the pocket while the Soviets would be filling the gap with the reserves they still possessed. Manstein's remaining forces were exhausted, disorganized, depleted, and what little strategic surprise they had was gone.
The farther into Russia the Germans got the worse their logistics situation became. The bigger the battles the more they fell behind in terms of attrition. Paying too high a price for victories left them vulnerable to counter attack. German military accomplishments were pretty impressive if you look at them individually, but with the complete lack of a global strategy none of this was ever going to work. Russia is so immense that they have always been able to count on their number one ally to join the battle before being totally over run, namely winter.
Prokhorovka was basically “the operation was a success but the patient died” from the German perspective lol. The three Germanic SS divisions were kicking ass during this battle.
The surprise B episodes will always be my favourites!
He told there would be two parts😂
@@marcustulliuscicero.5856 goldfish memory brings a lot of nice surprises 😁
@@CatNostril 😂
1945 last april week might even have episodes c and d
Thank you Cat! Stay tuned for more action every single week
My great grandfather was in this battle as a Stuka pilot, he always told my grandmother. “They where always ready, they slaughtered our comrades on the ground.” This hits different 😬😔
Thank you for sharing about your great grandfather. May he rest in peace
When an unstoppable force meets an immovable object… I was thinking about this battle starting the other day and all I could picture apart from the tanks was the constant stream of casualties into the medical stations on both side, the worst kind of wounds, gunshots, blown limbs, shrapnel wounds, burns…
Seing the pictures of Russian tankers on the Ukranian war of today really shows how tanks can become a steel caldrons
It is a moving metal box full of ammo basically.
@@georgecristiancripcia4819 Everyone talks about the immense manpower of the Soviet Army. But what boggles my mind is how they got the guns and ammunition for so many soldiers so quickly after such huge losses of material in 1941. The lend lease acts must have been larger than some claim
@@paulonelson8368 Even during the (Ongoing) Syrian civil war, tanks without infantry support are just steel coffins
@@canadious6933 Remember: Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics. And the fact is that in 1941, what they didn't lose was the ability to produce more materiel or draft more troops. Also, they're fighting on their own territory, which gives them an advantage in moving stuff to where it's needed.
These last two episodes detailing the Battle of Kursk has been riveting and enthralling... thanks so much for putting in so much work! Its great!
Glad that you have enjoyed them @Steve Rennie, thanks for watching with us!
@@WorldWarTwo your Battle of Kursk has many details. really cool. thank you.
Indy's narration is simply astonishing. Yet, we will never be able to grasp the sheer scale and horror of this battle. It must have been a spectacle and hell that no one could ever describe. Most likely (and hopefully) the biggest and most ferocious battle in human history.
There are some really good first hand account books from the battle out there. The artilery in particular was absolutely devastating
Luis Thank you for watching
This is truly one of your best episodes ever. Incredibly well done Indy. Incredibly well done. Kudo's to the entire Time Ghost Team.
Thank you Token Civilian. The TimeGhost Army makes it all possible
When I joined in on this series, Greece was still resisting the Italian invasion and Germany was only plotting its plans in the USSR. Chamberlain had just passed.
I can hardly believe that now it's Italy that's being invaded, and Germany's Barbarossa plans feel like distant dreams. It's been such a pleasure to follow the war with you guys, it helped to feed an interest in history that I never knew I had. Thank you for your continued work. I hope I can join the Timeghost army before 1945. If the war lasts that long anyway ;) I guess we'll have to see.
Thank you for your support watching. Join the TimeGhost Army whenever you're able, and til then tell your friends! www.patreon.com/join/timeghosthistory
This is possibly the most dramatic episode so far, love it. Also, Indy's narration is impeccable, as always.
Thank you GS Zarco! We appreciate it
On July 12 1943 at 8 a.m., the GC3 "Normandie" fighter group, made up of French airmen fighting alongside the Soviets, was engaged in the Operation Kutuzov, on the Orel salient. Fourteen pilots redeploy to the Khatenki airfield (55 km southwest of Kaluga). Their mission is to escort Pe-2 bombers for an attack on the German lines.
What is this GC3 "Normandie"? I know about the 1st Normandy Fighter Aviation Regiment
@@user-ol2dv2ou4b The Groupe de Chasse n°3 or GC3 (Figther Group number 3) Normandie, founded on 1 September 1942 in Lebanon, was a Free French fighter group that fought on the eastern front within the 303rd Air Division of the Soviet 1st Air Army.
At first it was only made of 14 pilots, 39 mechanics and 6 liaison officers, all volunteers. Later by the end of winter 1943, it will be reorganised into a regiment and, until June 1944,will increase in strenght and size up to 4 squadrons of 58 pilots flying on Yak9 and later Yak3 fighters.
The regiment was awarded by decision of Marshal Stalin, in his September 1944 order of the day (which only reaches them on 28 November), the right to bear the name of Niemen for its participation in the battles of the Niemen River during the East Prussia campaign. Thus was born the Normandie-Niemen fighter regiment.
@@oOkenzoOo Why Fighter Group No. 3? If this is the Normandy fighter squadron as part of the 18th Guards Fighter Regiment? On July 5, 1943, the squadron was transformed into the 1st separate Fighter Aviation Regiment "Normandy". On November 28, 1944, the regiment was awarded the honorary name "Neman". The regiment's date of birth is July 5, 1943, not November 28, 1944. Order on conferring the honorary title of November 28, 1944 No. 0384. In September, they did not assign the name "Nemansky"
@@user-ol2dv2ou4b A "Groupe de Chasse" (abbreviated as GC) is the French language term for "fighter group" or "fighter wing". More literal translations include "pursuit group" (the US term for fighter groups prior to 1942) and "hunting group" (similar to the German language Jagdgruppe or JG). It may include one to four squadrons, each of which comprises 10-12 aircrafts. Normandie was GC3 because it was the 3rd Free French GC formed at that time, GC1 was Alsace (created in september 1941 in Lebanon) and GC2 was Île-de-France (created in october 1941 in Great Britain). GC3 Normandie was formed on 1 September 1942 in Lebanon by order of General de Gaulle to fight in Russia.
Indeed, Normandie was first assigned to the 18th Guards Fighter Regiment of the 303rd Air Division of the Soviet 1st Air Army. On 5 July 1943, Normandie received 12 new Yak9 fighters which allowed the creation of a 2nd squadron. Normandie became then a separate force in the 303rd Air Division, outside of the 18th Guards Fighter Regiment. However it was only in 29 December 1943 that Normandie gained the official status of Fighter Regiment R (R for Russian) with 4 squadrons.
The name "Niemen" as i said, was awarded by Stalin to the Normandie regiment first in his order of the day in september 1944.... however it was only until 28 November 1944 that the news reached the Normandie regiment itself and it was then they started to use the famous Normandie-Niemen name.
At least that's what the sources i have at hand say.
@@oOkenzoOo Thanks for the explanation. I did not know the history of the Normandy-Neman regiment before the USSR, although I conducted an inspection of it. On July 5, 1943, by order of the General Staff of the USSR Air Force,
the Normandy group became "The first separate fighter aviation
regiment of "Fighting France"". The commander of the Normandy regiment was
Major Pierre Pouillade. The senior commander of the squadron "Rouen" became
Lieutenant Gerald Leon and squadron "Le Havre" Captain Didier Begi. Maybe for France and on December 29, 1943, it became a regiment, but in the USSR - on July 5, 1943. I have already written that on November 28, 1944, by order of the Supreme Command No. 0384, the Normandy regiment was awarded the honorary name "Nemansky". If you have other information, please provide links. I was looking at an electronic document.
This is undoubtedly THE BEST episode in this series so far. So great to see Indy and team out performing themselves every time. The sheer depth of this battle couldn't have been put into words any better. Take a bow everyone🙏
5 months later this is still one of absolute favorite episodes. Kursk kind of gets overshadowed in the story of the Eastern Front compared to the harrowing stories of Stalingrad or Leningrad.
All of this hellish fighting and truly unimaginable horror in what seems to be a pretty normal village in Russia. Imagine living in that little town and watching the crux of mass armored warfare crash on the place you have called home.
Dear algorithm, please choose this video every time somebody search for "Kursk battle" or something like that, a human watched it, and it is damn good.
Yours truly
4:16 - minor note on uniform detail - Rotmistrov is wearing a sort of transitional garment common in the Red Army in 1943. An M1935 tunic (turndown collar) updated in line with the new uniform regulations introduced at the start of the year by having the Tsarist-style shoulder boards attached.
Thanks Steve, great background info.
AMAZING episode. This was, dare I say it, the best so far. It is yet another legendary clash between industrial powers like those we saw in WW1. I hate to say this, but I'm a sucker for this. I know about the loss of life, but I cannot deny that it is a spectacle.
@Mídia Insana It is certainly gripping in both the awe it inspires and its awfulness. We are lucky to have the luxury of viewing it from so far away!
I've heard that Kursk was the biggest tank battle, I just didn't know it was this insane. Armies just losing everything they've been taught and flat out blast eachother, point blank, completely effecting the vision and sound of the area at a very high level. Words can't describe it
I'm almost 40 and have consumed a lot of documentary material around WW1 and 2. How Europe still exists is a minor miracle, to be honest. Almost the entire first half of the 20th Century was like the Gates of Hell itself opening.
I have been to the german tank museum in Munster yesterday, and was completely overwhelmed seeing the tanks there. These machines are truly massive and intimidating. I can't imagine what such a mass of them must've been like.
Today´s script transmited a lot of emotion, really liked it.
Thank you for watching, guillermo. Stay tuned for more every week
Truly gripping storytelling, good sir. Bravo! You stripped away all the BS of authors like Franz Kurowski and replaced them with the sheer horror of war where steel and fire turn metal and meat into so much red mist and charred remains.
Thanks @Zali! This war is brutal and terrifying and that is how we are going to tell it
I don't know about you guys, but this episode has been the most intense one so far. Indy's way of narrating the battle(s) is simply capturing. I've even had goosebumps all the way through.
This episode is one to remember. Thank you.
Thanks for your kind words and for watching with us @Qu Bird
Man, no one can beat Indy’s narration of the ferocity of battle, I stayed on the edge of my seat the whole time!
Been waiting for this extra B episode for a while, a welcome surprise. Prokhorovka reminds me of the many matches I had when playing in the map of the same name in World of Tanks...
It’s one of my favorite maps, but I never seem to win in German tanks for some reason.
so good they made a special version with more tanks and explosions and planes flying around
17:27 за родину = "za rodinu" = "for the motherland"
A brilliant presentation! Many thanks!
Thank you Schroedinger's Dog!
It honestly never ceases to amaze me how often cities that were pivotal battlefields in WW1 are mentioned time and again in ww2. Perhaps because I listen to the Great War and between 2 wars and ww2 week by week episodes from start to finish and after a month of music start again it piques my interest how I can here something about a city where 50,000 were killed in ww1 and then here about that same city in ww2 having another intense battle. It really show cases how rough it was in some places of the world for well over 50 years.
And now in 2022, the same cities of Belgorod and Kharkiv appear in war again, albeit at a much smaller scale. But still, for history buffs watching documentaries like this and also following current news, it's unsettling for the same places to come up again in conflict.
Part B? Oh you sure know how to spoil us Indy.
Did not expect a part B, awesome
Thank you for watching as always Doctor Jones
The fact that both these nations have this much equipment after years of fighting each other is scary and awe inspiring
@Supergforce777 Very good point!
Indy & co. did a special on the war economies of the belligerents in WWII (and WWI before that). The numbers are jaw-dropping. As an example, in 1941 the U.S. spent 1.4 percent of GDP on defence. In 1942, that figure jumped to 45 percent. Not 4.5 percent, *45* percent. I don’t even want to think how much war materiel the States could produce today with that kind of spending-or how thoroughly it would wreck the rest of the economy.
Honestly, if you look at the relative casualty numbers, the Germans did astoundingly well at Kursk. Their losses in tanks and heavy guns were something like a quarter of that of the Soviets, but by this point in the war, that is still a winning ratio for the Red Army, especially with the looming threat of the new Italian and potential Western Front opening up.
Yep
The Germans did very poorly at Kursk. They achieved almost none of their objectives and failed to achieve the decisive breakthrough, the entire point of the campaign. Moreover the impact of the defeat, along with the invasion of Sicily by the Western Allies, was that the strategic initiative was ceded permanently to the Allied powers. It all but assured that Germany's defeat in the war would be total.
Germany did have some tactical successes, but strategically Kursk was a dismal failure from start to finish and the Germans were at no point close to victory.
@@lycaonpictus9662 And their losses at Kursk prevented the Germans from being able to effectively respond to ANY of the long planned series of Soviet summer offensives.
It is likely that for example the Russians lost more troops in the 1812 campaign than the Grande Armee, not counting civilian losses which were also extensive. But at the end of the day the Grande Armee was virtually destroyed and Napoleon was on borrowed time. Napoleon's reluctant allies, the Prussians and Austrians, went over to the Russian side.
*this is not true, since the Wehrmacht and the Red Army adopted different methods for calculating losses in personnel and equipment; I will give an example if the tank of the German tank battalion was seriously damaged and is under long-term repairs in the repair units, then it is not considered as lost in the Red Army with the same option, the tank will be considered lost because of this, in many historical Western publications, the losses of the Red Army are not correctly considered and this has often been speculated on lately! This is where the fantastic number of Red Army tanks lost as a result of the Great Patriotic War comes from. Western analysts voice the number of damaged tanks that were repaired and were recorded as lost in tank units, but do not voice the number returned to service after repair!*
This episode is simply a masterpiece. I cannot express the gratitude I have in the work you guys have done. Growing up, we were never taught in school this much detail about WW2, the battles, the strategies, the people outside of the national leaders/generals than what you guys have put together.
Jay thank you for your support. Stay tuned for even more coverage
Thank you, Marcus-This was fantastic work!
And, as always, Indy, thank you for all the work you do👍
An excellent presentation! Thanks!
Thanks for watching with us @MJ S !
Great stuff as always Indy. Thank you!
Thank you my Viking friend!
Thanks Time Ghost Army for Sharing These wonderful Videos
Been waiting and hyping up this episode in my head ever since this series began. All that expectation and you guys still managed to deliver. Thank you so much!
Piarpeggio We know you've been looking forward to it! Thank you for joining us & please stay tuned
This is an amazing description of the battle. So intense.
Thanks for watching, Mark
Amazing episode! Thank you, Indy! Great story telling.
Thank you Leo! Stay tuned for more every week
Great episode
This must be the pinnacle of the show and your narration Indy, absolutely enthralling!
Thank you Ben!
Thanks for the episode.
As always, it was too short but thats somethink i have been complaining since 1914 :D
But you guys are stil the best World Wars chanel ever. Thank you and Carry on.
Thanks so much @Vojtěch Slezák! We will carry on until the very last bullet is fired, and probably even beyond that
@@WorldWarTwo when the last bullet is spent we will fix bajonets and charge to glory.
Bravo very well put together!
Thank you chris!
Another great job as always Indy!! 👍👍
Wow! Terrific job, Marcus! At the risk of appearing obsequious, the narration of this episode was awesome.
What a joy it is for me to watch these videos. They bring alive events 80 years in the past. Remarkable.
War is not a video game, where you respawn when killed. Death is permanent. Injuries last a lifetime.
Hell on Earth near Prokhorovka. Kudos to all on this one. Thanks so much.
Perihelion Thank you for your always kind words of support. See you next time my friend
This week in July 1943, there are not one, but five video games (Call of Duty: United Offensive, Call of Duty 2: Big Red One, Medal of Honor: Breakthrough, Medal of Honor: Airborne and even Mafia II) that have missions starting this week in either Sicily or near Kursk. This post will focus on the levels *Ponyri* and *Kursk* , as well as *Sicily 1 & 2* from the 2004 video game *Call of Duty: United Offensive* that takes place on July 11 1943 and July 12 1943 respectively in Kursk and Sicily.
As *Private Yuri Petrenko* in the *Ponyri level* , you will first capture a German held train station as well as the rest of the town. Afterwards, you will assault a tank depot and clear it of German resistance.
Next in the *Kursk* level, you will use your T-34 tank as part of a tank group to destroy several PAK anti-tank guns that are on the route, as well as clear buildings of anti-tank infantry. Soon enemy Panzer IVs and Tiger tanks will appear, which will need to be eliminated as well. This level is somewhat similar to the tank levels in Call of Duty 1.
At the same time as *Sergeant James Doyle* in the *Sicily 1 & 2 levels* , you will first destroy a lighthouse with explosive charges and get into the base unnoticed through a hole in the wall. You will next destroy the Comms Station to prevent German reinforcements and set charges on enemy guns. Once back on the surface, you will get in a Kubelwagen and make your escape to a Kriegsmarine patrol boat before the explosives on the guns explode.
That bike chase with Doyle was awesome
You're doing God's work man!
@@elbeto191291 Thanks man, there will be more posts on the regular episode this Saturday as the rest of the posts are on Sicily itself.
The tank battle featured in this episode, at the bridge of the River Psel, is also the tank battle level in Call of Duty: United Offensive.
Those Kursk levels in United Offensive were intense
Your work is pure gold.
Thank you Markus, thank you Indy. Thank you Timeghost in general, too.
Thank you for watching, L C. We couldn't do it with you amazing folks in the TimeGhost Army. Thanks for being the best audience out there
Prokofiev's "Battle on the Ice" would fit very well with intense footage from this battle.
How the hell do you create an episode like that? Beautifully written and told by Indy as though he were reciting a play. How do you do that? Amazing map work Sietse and Daniel, take the rest of the year off! Well done and thank you!
@Jonathan McAlroy Thank you so much for your kind words! It takes a lot of work from a lot of experienced and talented people to put these together, and there is no way we'd be able to do this (I mean at all, never mind extra episodes like this!) without the support of the TimeGhost Army, so thanks to all of you out there too!
Haha Thanks! :)
strapping gasoline barrels to the side of one's tank actually isn't much of a risk, at least according to trusted tanker Chieftain. Maybe you could consult him and clarify in a "chair of infinite wisdom" episode :D
@@captainhurricane5705 Molotovs are made with a fuel + thickener that allows it to stick to what you throw it at, versus plain fuel which runs off like water and goes out fairly quickly. Not as effective as they're typically shown in Hollywood movies but they do work if you hit the vehicle in the right spot.
Absolutely amazing research and coverage over these events. Thanks for creating such incredible content!
You're very welcome @Sebastian Rosas, and thanks for watching with us!
Amazing work as always. Brilliant stuff. Thanks you guys 💯💛💛👍
Thanks for watching with us @Jonathan Bartrop
Hello Indy and Crew. First of all I love your Show and am thrilled everytime you release a new Video. Only this specific Video left me with a few Questionmarks floating around.
I spent some time learning about Prokhorovka (purely out of curiosity) in the past and had up to this day, a in some ways different Picture of this Battle, shortly summarized by the following statements:
1. Only the Action on July 12th is considered to be this "Battle of Prokhorovka" not the Combat of the following Days (Though i would like to state that i am by no means unhappy that you covered this as well)
2. The Battle on July 12th was not a battle of encounter (?) (The German Term would be: Begegnungsschlacht) but the Soviet Forces attaced a somewhat surprised German Force who had intendet to enter combat much later in the day and therefore weren't prepared for a fight. They managed to beat back the soviets anyways due to bad preperation on the side of the soviets.
3. During this Combat on July 12th the German SS-Units had only minor casualtys in stark Contrast to the soviets who had a verry high deathtoll that day.
I'd love to hear your Opinion (or of course the Opinion of the Comment Section) on this matter.
Keep up the geat Work and Greetings from Bavaria Kronos
Ps. Most of what i have learned about Prokhorovka so far is based on the Work of Dr. Roman Töppel. A german Historien who spent a lot of his time reaserching the Battle of Kursk and who has devoted a lot of time and effort into dissolving the "Myth" of Prokhorovka as he calls it. Just in Case someone is wondering.
Yeah it is disappointing, that this channel also fell in the myth-trap.
This was disappointing. :/
I thought I was the only one who was very confused here. Glad some others commented with concerns.
Awesome content! Keep up the good work.
Thank you rum runner. Keep the rum coming.
Excellent stuff bro
Thank you Clarence
Great job Indy and crew! I love these weekly specials. A lot to cover.
Jeroen Thank you! We couldn't do it without your support
A case can be made that this was the most pivotable battle of the entire war. There could easilly be one or two more episodes devoted entirely to this battle.
Nah, it would have made no difference. After Stalingrad at the latest, Germany had lost the war. I would argue that they lost with the Stop order during Fall Gelb.
@@PalleRasmussen I wrote a very similar comment on a past video lol. There is only one truth after all.
Not gonna lie, I am a bit disapointed they didn't do like Pearl Harbour and have a special in colaboration with World of Tanks.
That case can't be made. Kursk wasn't pivotal. It was massive, it was apocalyptic, but it wasn't pivotal. The sheer concentration of Soviet forces was such that even if Germany had somehow won the battle they would've paid too high a price for the victory and the subsequent advance wouldn't be sufficient to deal any kind of a real blow to Russia, then the Russians would spend the winter replenishing their forces for the next campaigning season while Germany simply couldn't do that anymore and now they're facing a second (Italy) AND a third (France) front opening up the following year.
Much is made of the battle of Kursk but ultimately the fact is that it just wasn't all that important, except that it probably shortened the war a little because Germany squandered their last truly significant concentration of armour and air power attacking an extremely fortified enemy that outnumbered them in everything AND knew exactly when and where they were going to come.
@@Aethelhald After Stalingrad German military victory was no longer possible but Soviet victory was not assured. There could have been a long draw on the battlefield (as there basically was between Stalingrad and Kursk) leading to a negotiated cessation of hostilities on the Soviet front. After the Soviet victory at Kursk, German defeat was assured and a negotiated peace became out of the question.
I love every pic I see of Vatutin lmao. Just a jolly general.
One of the most thrilling episodes from start to finish, great coverage, footage and descriptions as always. Thanks for the amazing episode!
Thank you!
What a tremendous episode. You guys never fail to disappoint. Keep them coming!!
@Capt1nB1oW We sure will, right up until the last bullet is fired in this war, and probably after that too
For the whole show a good episode. But one important part of the battle was not told. Rotmistrov´s Tanks oversaw a big own buildt trench tank an lost hundreds of tanks running into this trench. They were an easy target for german tankers and antitank weapons.
Thank you for your great work with this series! This episode was intense.
Also greetings from Finland. At this time of the war, I guess our soldiers were mainly still manning the trenches along our border with soviets, waiting to see which side would prevail.
Vanukass Thank you for watching 🇫🇮
Great episode i already know alot about Prokhorovka but Indy and team still managed to bring suspense into the episode
Thank you Maarten, glad you enjoyed it
Of all the history channels on all of the UA-cams the Time Ghost history channels are by far the best.
Kim Thank you for watching. We also have the best audience
Its an incredible testament to the power of the German Panzer divisions that they usually end up fighting multiple divisions, entire corps or even armies and still somehow push through before ultimately being overwhelmed and forced back. That is absolute insanity to me and is so impressive when you think about how outnumbered they are and yet they still manage to make progress time and time again, even more impressive when you take into account that lots of their tanks are outdated and they're attacking strong defensive positions.
Finally Panzerkampf
The end of the third Reich draws near
Its time has come to an end
The end of an era is here
Its time to attack
Thank you for watchingm Reddy
Love the extra episodes! All of the crews hard work is so appreciated
Especially the tank crews
Thank you SockGiant! The outpouring of support from you in our audience is truly staggering. We appreciate you.
Thanks, Markus!
At Stalingrad the Russians broke the German's greatest army. At Kursk they broke their ability to make major offensives. The initiative has been passed. The Russians have turned the tide.
The Germans broke them selves into the Soviet wall. At the start of Barbarosa the Axis could launch a continent wide attack, after it could only attack on one third towards Stalingrad, after that it could only mount a provincial assault at Kursk and after this they were done for good, unable to do much more than throw their forces in hopeless delaying counterattacks around individual cities.
Couldn't be done without the American help in the Operation Torch, and the British and Free French in North Africa.
@@serdradion4010 Its funny whenever Soviets manage to do something there's always someone to bring up Lend-Lease but no one mentions that D-Day/Falaise/Ardennes went better for the western allies since the Soviets had bled the Wehrmacht dry. When faced with hardcore Eastern front units as in Caen/Market Garden even western allies had to pay a heavy price in blood.
@@neuromancer886
Lend-lease is minor contribution.
Main one is that American landing in Op.Torche overturned the French to the Allied side, creating Free French, concentrating the half a million force in the North Africa, joint with the British.
They redirected reserve hardened Axis troops from the Eastern Front to the North Africa.
Finally, there was captured around 250.000 hardened Axis troops, with the around 250 tanks, 200 planes destroyed,
much fuel, ammo and Italian ships.
If all that went to the East, it would not be that easy for the Soviets.
Again, history repeated at the D-day, when tank divisions went to the France instead to the East.
War was decided by Allied heavy bombers, unstoppable bunch.
So, just Allied side was more numerous than the Axis one.
@@serdradion4010 There was absolutely nothing minor about lend-lease. By war's end 2/3 of all the vehicles doing the logistical heavy lifting for the Red Army were supplied via lend-lease. The massive Soviet offensives that destroyed the German army simply would not have been possible without them. That the Soviet Union was getting most of the vehicles it needed through lend-lease also meant that more of it's factories could be churning out things like tanks or airplanes instead of needing to be retooled to produce trucks. In short, it also meant thousands more Soviet tanks and aircraft.
That's just one area where lend-lease was absolutely vital, but it often gets overlooked because amateur military buffs are often bored by logistics (even though it's more often than not the single most important factor that determines the outcome of campaigns or wars) and because we've had more than half a century of the Soviet/Russian state pushing forth a national myth that the Soviet Union could have won the war without the Western Allies.
Here is what Zhukov, someone who presumably knew a thing or two about what contributed to Soviet successes, had to say about lend-lease: "Now they say that the allies never helped us, but it can't be denied that the Americans gave us so many goods without which we wouldn't have been able to form our reserves and continue the war...We didn’t have explosives, gunpowder. We didn’t have anything to charge our rifle cartridges with. The Americans really saved us with their gunpowder and explosives. And how much sheet steel they gave us! How could we have produced our tanks without American steel? But now they make it seem as if we had an abundance of all that. Without American trucks we wouldn’t have had anything to pull our artillery with."
The tank battle between the railway line and the River Psel was recreated in Call of Duty: United Offensive.
I absolutely love Indy's passion in his voice. It is so riveting and enticing that I cannot look away. Although i already know the outcome, i am very much glued to my screen.
Thank you Indy & team for making a spectacular episode as always.
I love those episodes where you guys describe the battles, now the war will get more interesting as the Axis become more and more desperate.
Can you guys talk a bit about the tank production of Germany? Why didn't they have more tanks?
There are great videos about that already.
Just a search on the economics and production of tanks should get you to the right one! :)
A lot more has to do with how much industrial effort the Germans put into tank production compared to the Soviets. While it’s true that German designs were more expensive to produce, they never put even 5% of their industrial effort into tanks before 1943, and never more than 7.8% in the war as a whole. Meanwhile, the Soviets, with a much smaller GDP, put a fairly constant 30-40% into tank production.
To contrast, the Germans never put LESS than 50% of their total munitions effort into the air war, counting flak. (Certainly never less after ‘43 inclusive - before then the kriegsmarine consumed a significant proportion.)
This - “the Soviets had a much bigger potential output..” simply isn’t true. Their economy never recovered to 1941 levels.
Manstein: "I want to draw out the soviet armor!"
Narrator: "And he got his wish."
When I saw that part by Rudolph Von Ribbentrop, I had to do a quick search and found out that, yes he was Joachim's son and also that man had an interesting military career. Thanks Time Ghost for making me search for more information than I really needed! :D
Thank you for taking a keen interest in history, korbell. Never forget
Loved it. Great job. Well Done
Thank you Paul
Phenomenal video probably my favorite yet on the war itself. Keep up the great work guys.
Thanks @Bcvetkov 853!
80 years later and turrets of Soviet built tanks are still blasting off meters into the air.
And Nazis are still being evicted from Ukraine
I've been waiting for this episode since the start of the series - well done!
Although I think it deserved a coverage on par with Pearl Harbor - considering it's orders of magnitude larger in scale in both man and machines.
Umm… I don’t think you have a good handle on land vs sea war materiel costs. The Bismarck cost about the same as 800 Tiger tanks, or about 2,000 MkIV’s. Or about half the total German AFV force at Kursk. One ship.
The US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor in 1941 represented a capital investment many times more than the total forces on both sides at Kursk, at first glance. Edit: well, more anyway.
I suspect that pearl harbor is better understood. Naval warfare is easier to organize and track. Pearl harbor has a much better defined scope of operations than Kursk. Its easier to count the losses of machines than men, planes than tanks, and ships than planes. The language resources help from an English standpoint, giving english speakers more accessibility to pearl harbor.
I do hope for a round up on the losses of citidel, because I felt like this episode was just about a very chaotic tank battle.
@@randallturner9094 Well, I wasn't exactly talking material cost here - I was talking sheer scope of operations. Over a million men mobilized and thousands of tanks, artillery and airplanes.
It dwarfs Pearl Harbor in that aspect. Not to mention months in preparation.
@@krejslayer it (Kursk) was certainly more complex. I have a bit of a chip about land warfare comparisons to other media. They always overestimate everything about land battles but headcount. You’re still kinda doing it - it’s not just cost, it’s combat power. there may only be a handful of BB’s but their firepower dwarfs those “thousands of artillery and tanks”. Each ship is a huge collection of sub units. Even Fletcher class DD’s have a arty battalion’s throw-weight.
Quite a large air contingent at Kursk, though.
My point is this. An industrial nation like Germany or the Soviet Union can make good its losses at Kursk in a few weeks, a month at most. It takes them a decade to build a fleet like that at Pearl Harbor. (USA, less time for both of course.)
AnonymusKeglus Thanks for watching. Every episode is a great investment of research, time, and money. We do our best to cover the action of this war every single week and to bring you special episodes regularly, but we can't do it without your support! Join the TimeGhost Army today and help us make more of those specials! www.patreon.com/join/timeghosthistory
What an incredible episode!
Thank you Cloak and Dagger! Our channel depends on the support of our audience, so please consider joining the TimeGhost Army today and help us make more of those specials! www.patreon.com/join/timeghosthistory
What a masterpiece. You kept me under pressure until the end. This was one amazing episode. Keep up the amazing work.
Стоян Атанасов Thank you for the very kind words. Our whole crew works hard to bring you these episodes, and comments like yours are wonderful to see. Stay tuned, my friend
Remember to like
This comment is racist towards amnesiacs
Done
Thanks you guys! It all helps with the youtube voodoo
INTO THE MOTHERLAND THE GERMAN ARMY MARCH!
In the Soviet Union, summer 1943
Tanks lined up in thousands, as far as the eye can see
Ready for the onslaught
Ready for the fight
Waiting for the Axis
to march into the trap
Mines are placed in darkness
in the cover of the night
Waiting to be triggered
When the time is right
Imminent invasion, imminent attack
Once the battle started
There’s no turning back
Felicitări pentru documentar excelent !
Bravo, amazing coverage of that fatal battle. Thank you, so much. It was intense, with support of appropriate documentary, and maps helps to visualize that battle. Job well done. Waiting for aftermath debrief this Saturday. Thanks again!
RussianThunderrr Thank you for your very kind words. The maps team & everyone else has been working hard and looking forward to this episode, we appreciate your support. Stay tuned
The Germans called the battle of Prokhorovka “die blutmühle von Belgorod”. This loosely translates as “The Belgorod Bloodgrinder”. Note how Indy describes the German first day of what was supposed to be an attack entirely in defensive terms. The SS and 5th Guards Tank just smashing face first into each other…
I got money on Germany winning 5-4 in overtime
It's a messy debate as to who won Prokhorovka. You might not see any money for the next thousand years.
😬
Fantastic narration!
Thank you Okiedog!
Love the bonus episode. Great content as always!
Thank you Blue Steel!
If you read the 2017 book from Dr. Roman Töppel, "Kursk" , or watch his lecture about this battle in den german tank museum in Munster (can be found on youtube), he gives a complete different view about this battle. The SS Panzerkorps lost a total of 5 tanks on this day. There were a lot of tanks destroyed , but Indy was clever enough not to tell how many where lost by whom. A lot of soviet books written by generals form this battle claimed that the german panzerkorps had lost hundreds of tanks, but the documents in the archives tell a different story.
@Joachim Batke I'll paste an answer given by Indy to a similar comment here and also point out that the latest popular (published) analyses do not necessarily overturn all of the historiography that has gone before. Indy - "I get ya. But it’s true- it is not possible to know how many tanks each side lost. There are too many wildly differing primary sources. The newest claims are that the SS Panzers lost just five- but that’s destroyed- they absolutely had many dozens disabled, out of action, or out of gas. And Of course the Soviets lost way more as they always do. I tend to usually agree with David Glantz on numbers, who’s good at downplaying hype, so check out his Battle of Kursk for details that seem to me to be likely closest."
@@WorldWarTwo well, even Glantz, whose writing generally favors the Soviet version, credits the Germans with a 9:1 advantage at Prokhorovka.
I found this episode most interesting, and disappointing. There are two versions of Kursk and the battles in the south. The first is based on the history and reports as provided by 5th Guards commander (Rotmistrov). The second is based on reviews of the German records and Soviet documents that were available (for a while) after the Soviet Union opened up.
The first is basically the video I just saw where German tanks from the SS Corps and Soviet 5th Guards Tank Army fought over a valley where hundreds of tanks clashed, the Soviets bravely closing in on the German armor where their guns could finally kill all of the Tigers or at least hurt them.
The second is a bit different. First, only 1SS was involved with 2nd SS supporting on 12 July. 3rd SS was delayed fighting on the left flank after taking a river crossing while 2nd SS was waiting for an infantry division to relieve it where 2nd SS had been guarding the right flank of the corps' advance. The Soviets had problems assembling 5th Guards Tank Army as the Germans occupied some their assembly areas. This resulted in an attack that was piecemeal. 1st SS was caught completely by surprise but 1SS wasn't advancing, it had halted while 3rd SS moved up and 2nd SS was relieved. The Soviet attacks were largely stopped by anti-tank guns, both towed and SP, by a Soviet anti-tank ditch the Soviet tankers weren't informed about, by the 1st SS Panzer Regiment's tanks who although overrun weren't fired on the the Soviet tanks and who joined the Soviet attack while shooting the T34/76 from behind, and the only contact with Tigers being four from 13th company 1st SS which shot up about a third of a Soviet brigade (170th & 181st together around 1 brigade in strength) advancing as described in the video. 2nd SS' units to the north were also involved in defending against the main 5th Tank Army attack.
The follow on attack in the video was by 5th Guards Army's tanks, around 200 of them.
The Soviet attacks did break through the German lines with the last of the attackers destroyed in front of the German artillery positions. Around half of the attacking force was lost.
The second version is based on the current writings of the Kursk 'museum' as well as several other authors. The top two books describe Rotmistrov's description of the battle. The next two do not. The last two discuss the deliberate errors in Rotmistrov's description.
Rotmistrov lost approximately half of the armor in his army in his attack. He stated those losses were due to his tanks having to charge across open ground into over a 100 Tiger tanks plus (1200 Soviet vs. 700 German per Rotmistrov). He actually ended up attacking a just over 1:1 odds. The Corps in the Army couldn't form up where ordered, there were Germans there, so they went in piecemeal. The video of Soviet T34 charging forward with guns blazing means nothing - the commander was the gunner, the tank had no stabilization, the tank was likely firing HE because most of a T34 basic load was HE not armor piercing, and the drivers had trouble seeing as well. One tank in 10 had a radio.
SS tank strength, July 12,1943
At Start Pz III Pz IV Pz VI T34 Cmd
1st SS 5 47 4 0 7 63 total
2nd SS 34 18 1 8 7 68 total
3rd SS 54 30 10 0 7 101 total
approximately 30 Tigers started the battle with around 10 per division.
does not include StuG III/G nor Panzerjager
Losses 1st SS Lost 16 Pz IV, 1 Tiger
2nd SS gained 8 Pz III, gained 1 Tiger, lost 1 Command tank
3rd SS Lost 22 Pz III, 13 Pz IV, and 10 Tiger.
These are destroyed and damaged. Damaged ones could be repaired (Note 2nd SS has more tanks after the battle repaired from previous losses).
SOVIET TANKS committed
T34/76 640 (half would be about 320 T34)
T70 & others (half would be about 320 T70)
SP Guns 30
Soviet losses: These were irrecoverable losses and do not include armor damaged but recovered.
T34 143
T70 56
Churchill 12
SU-122 8
SU-76 3
211 tanks 11 SP guns
The numbers differ among the sources (Sokolov, Zamulin, Nipe) but the Soviets lost about 220 AFV completely destroyed and the Germans as few as 4. For example, the 10 Tiger I lost by 3rd SS were all recovered and repaired.
On the other hand the counter-attack on 12 July 43 did CHANGE THE COURSE OF THE BATTLE. Not through German losses but through the loss of German initiative. For the remaining short time of the battle the Soviets held the initiative and were chosing where and when to attack. The Germans were defending.
SOURCES:
Carell, Paul SCORCHED EARTH, 1963
translated from the Greek, KURSK 1943. 'Great Battles of the World WW2', Squadron Signal, 2009
Glantz, David M., THE BATTLE OF KURSK. University Press 1999
Zamulin, Valeriy THE BATTLE OF KURSK 1943 'view through the cameral lens', Helion Company 2014
Sokolov, Boris, MYTHS AND LEGENDS OF THE EASTERN FRONT, Pen & Sword Military, 2019
Zamulin, Valeriy, DEMOLISHING THE MYTH 'The Tank Battle at Prokhorovka, Kursk, July 1943', Helion & Company Ltd, 2011
Nipe, George M., BLOOD, STEEL, AND MYTH 'The II. SS-Panzer-Korps and the road to Prochorowka July 1943', 2011
Its also worth mentioning that Rotmistrov have been almost court-martialed because of the heavy losses during that battle, and only intervention of Vasilevsky (or Khruschev according to other sources) prevented him from being sacked. Some historians are guessing that Rotmistrov just tried to save his position by making up higher German losses during that battle. So, yeah, Rotmistrov's claims are questionable to say the least.
I think it's also worth reading Ben Wheatley's article "Citadel, Prokhorovka and Kharkov: The armoured losses of the II SS Panzer Korps Sonderverbände during the battle of Kursk, July-August 1943", he's made some interesting research about the losses of German Tank Divisions during Battle of Prokhorovka. Although there's not much difference in numbers it seems, and he tried to count mostly irrecoverable losses rather than destroyed + repairable ones among AFVs, there's a bit of a difference here and there.
Mike, I don’t see Lawrence in your bibliography. I was going to ask what you thought about his The Battle of Prokhorovka. He’s got another about the air war part of Kursk, Aces of Kursk iirc. Just the best researcher out there right now.
Anton, the problem with Soviet sources is endemic. It neither starts nor ends with Kursk. All official Soviet histories have fabricated loss statistics, starting with their General Staff reports.
I've also read that german casualty estimates are misguiding, as they reported what forces they had at the end of the day, and thus reinforcements diluted or even compensated casualties. That seems to be why there are units with barely any loses or even growing in numbers as the battle progresses).
I've also read that the soviet counterattacks effectively "destroyed" the german armor, as to speak, they overrun the german repair stations and damaged tanks were effectively lost
@@CochoSGO Can you give me the sources of that info please? It's not like I'm claiming that you are wrong, I've just heard about it as well and wanted to find more about those claims, but alas has not been able to find the sources of it.
@@randallturner9094 Well, not really. Claims made by Soviet generals during the war is one thing. Official public Soviet claims - is another. Sometimes the former have been censored, distorted and transformed into a latter. Claiming that "All" Soviet statistics are false is an overstretch, although it wasn't uncommon during the Stalin's rule.
That was just fantastic. Very entertaining and informative . I was gripped from start to finish, well done Indy and all the production team
Thank you Aegon. You honor us. Valar morghulis.
@@WorldWarTwo valar dohaeris
The surprise extra episodes are truly an exceptionally gratifying treat! Thank you so much for them!
Stephen We truly could not do it without your support and the rest of the TimeGhost Army who supports us in every way. Thank you & stay tuned, my friend
Thank you Stephen! We know the TimeGhost Army appreciates them
Stall in Grad.
Stall = "Slow down"
In = "in"
Grad in English = "City"
Should have seen that comming. Literally says your gona "stall in this city".
It seems to me that even if the Germans would have been able to push on beyond Prochorovka the offensive would have failed anyway. It's just a matter of when and where the offensive would have stalled.
Absolutely stunning episode genuine suspense and drama👍👍 just love this channel
Thank you Kevin. We love you too
That was awsome! Can’t wait for Eastory’s video on the battle of kursk. Love his maps
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