The main reason I use Pathbuilder is specifically because it was originally a mobile application. I can plan my characters literally anywhere I can use my phone. Personally I use pen and paper when playing or GMing, but it's because I've printed off a character sheet exported from Pathbuilder. Same for Foundry since Pathbuilder also exports VTT. As far as players wanting to use a virtual character sheet while playing, I will almost always recommend Wanderer's Guide.
@@Nonat1s And thank you for introducing me to Wanderer's Guide lol. Can't believe a free application that's so intuitive and aesthetic flew mostly under the radar until your spotlight.
I can second this. I introduce players to PF2 through Pathbuilder, but since I am pretty proficient with it, I can help a player produce a new character in minutes. What I like about it over Wanderer’s Guide is the ability to print the character sheet. Like you, I discourage players from using electronics at the table; I saw an over-reliance on HeroLab in PF1. I’d love to hear your opinions about the spell card decks and item decks. As both a player AND a GM, I find both of these extremely helpful at the tabletop.
I may say that mobile is a dozen times better, so i think that looking on the computer version was a mistake, as it's not really the thing every body hiped.
@@michaelvonhasseln8932 As a GM I love the condition card deck. Items and Spells I leave up to the players on how they want to keep track of their own. I know prefer Pen and paper at the table, even when plotting or creating content for my world I find it a lot easier with a physical book as I tend to be able to focus better then with a PDF. The Digital books are great when trying to quick search/reference something.
The strongest asset is its error-checking. Don’t have enough Training in Athletics for that Skill you want? Don’t worry, it’s already been filtered out. Want to only see Ancestry feats that you meet the prerequisites for? No worries, that’s already done by default. Pathbuilder prevents errors/mistakes, and that’s the thing I’ll always appreciate most.
THIS. As a GM to players new to the system it probably saved me hours in going over their character sheets and correcting errors they easily would have missed while simultaneously explaining the WHY of it all to them as they quickly discovered through experimenting themselves. That said this did create an initial gap in their knowledge of the creation system, but having characters built PROPERLY under their belts meant we could quickly cover anything that they didn't understand intuitively from using the app without having to rebuild their PC from the ground up.
I didn't discover Pathbuilder until I was trying to navigate how to upgrade my level 1 character to level two. I found Pathbuilder then and it showed me that in my initial character creation, I'd missed two skill increases and an ability boost! I had to inform my GM that I had to correct that error. The error checking alone I agree is worth using.
when people hype pathbuilder they hype the mobile version not the browser one. And the fact that it's so freaking easy to make custom gear in pathbuilder + not having to wait 5 seconds after you click any button makes it the best pathfinder 2e character builder out there
@@forger03 But it's a fair review. Most of what he said is also the same in the app. Pathbuilder is great but it's a tool for experienced players to keep track with characters all over.
I've no clue of how many hours I've spend on Pathbuilder planning characters I'll probably never play 😂 I bet there's A LOT of people just like that here haha
It's also not fair to compare the browser version of something built to be in the browser first and a mobile adapted to the browser. While ignoring the mobile version.
I mean Wander's Guide is only in Beta too, so it seems pretty fair to me. That said all my players and I use either VTT tools to keep track of actual play, or pen and paper. So Wander's Guide doesn't really help me out.
Wanderer's Guide also isn't complete so 🤷♂️. And it also wouldn't be 'fair' to compare a browser tool to an app, since the format is fundamentally different
Pathbuilder helped me and my players to get into pathfinder 2e. I started my first game as a GM 6 months after the launch of the game and pathbuilder was the only free option I found to help create a character. All my players were new to pathfinder 2e and most were new to ttrpg in general. They all made their first character easily and loved the app instantly. As I GM, I loved the ease of sharing their character sheet with me within the app and as a user of Foundry Tabletop for our online game, I like the fact that I can easily import a character from pathbuilder into my game with no effort at all.
indeed, Nonat1 makes it seem like you have to follow a pre-made order. That's not the case, he would have realized it if he spent 5 minutes more trying out pathbuilder before deciding it was bad.
@@lorenzovaletti4951 Where did he say it's bad? He was pretty explicit about saying that it's good for what it wants to do, but what it wants to do isn't what he wants from it.
You're complaining about the scrolling on the "character sheet", but that's not a character sheet or meant to be used while playing. You make a character and export as a PDF to print and play with. Pathbuilder was hyped because for years it has been the only pathfinder character builder completely free and complete in app form.
The web version's UI being cumbersome is partly because of it being new. That said, you have to scroll a lot less when you leave tabs minimized when not using them. Admittedly it isn't meant to be used as a character sheet, which is where the great exporting to other formats comes into play (The web PDF export seems brokenish now, but it'll be fixed). The monster form stat block is surprisingly useful. Also, please try out Foundry. I'd love to see you cover it.
The monster stat block export is actually ingenious. As a GM whose started to prefer the simplicity of stat blocks over character sheets, I find the ability to export characters to the simple format super useful. I actually kinda want to export my players' character in the same way to give them an easier-to-digest format for their characters stats and combat actions.
@@kevinbarnard355 I run a game in person with friends, but also play in another group of friends on Roll20. The in-person game is the one where I think the players would greatly benefit from having statblocks. They're new-ish to the system and haven't quite learned the extents of what they can do in combat. That's where I think the statblocks would help them because they are a great breakdown of actions.
@@RancidPandemic I love the NPC/monster sheet option in Roll20. I'm not sure how feasible something like Pathbuilder is as an in-game aide for action breakdown, but I imagine it's doable.
Same for me, I had a very hard time understanding the d20 system, even months ago when I tried to create a character in DnD Beyond I had no clue of what I was doing. Skills, general feats, skill feats, spells.. it was a mess, and that's DnD!! It was Pathbuilder that made the whole thing crystal clear for me. After a few min using it I understood how to create a character, how to level it up, etc. I tried Wanderers Guide a few times and I honestly don't really get what's happening there haha. I find Pathbuilder super simple and easy to understand tho so I just love it. Thank you Pathbuilder's creators if you're reading it 💚
I know this has been said so many times already probably, but the scrolling aspect isn’t a problem on a tablet. It functions so much better. And he even said that everyone was saying to do the mobile version and then chooses to do the pc version. I get he doesn’t usually use mobile tablets but that’s what we hype it up for, not the PC version.
I like that you said it was good for what it is, just that it isn't made for you. Rather than just calling it bad and moving on. An easy fix for the scrolling is to just minimize the tabs you aren't currently using. They're pretty easy to navigate, aside from Perception being on the Offense tab, always throws me off. Personally it's not about planning 1-20 before session 1, but wanderer's guide felt like it was babying me. It's not bad really, I just prefer the "here's everything, pick your stuff" Rather than "Okay first things first we have to pick this. Then we do this. Then..." Plus the loading time between the Wanderer's Guide pages really just feels like forever, since I'm accustomed to swiping through the app where everything is already loaded. Honestly if they did a mobile app and it could all be pre-loaded and generally faster, I might use that over Pathbuilder. And the phone version is miles better, the way it looks and it's ease of use is great. There are totally things it could benefit from, such as being able to customize weapons (Like you showed when you had the Iron Fist Feat and couldn't change the weapon) Overall loved your video, great job yet again!
Pathbuilder almost singlehandedly taught me the basics of the game. It having links to the PRD, having restrictions and walking you through every option slowly was MONUMENTAL in driving me down the rabbithole of the rulebook hahaha. As a sidenote, we dont pre-plan in our game (GM is giving us free archetype feats that are tailored to how we develop in the story) and pathbuilder still works great in that kind of character build. All in all, the video is great feedback for the developer if anything else, but definitively a little harsh hahaha, it definitively deserves the hype it gets.
Pathbuilder mobile is my ace because it works just fine offline, i am still eagerly waiting for the web version to get to the same completeness but i love it anyway
For me, I'm a die hard Hero Lab user, but I recognize that it's not a cheap option by a long shot. I've never really thought about it from the perspective of a new user, but I do credit with making me proficient a LOT faster, both with PF1 and PF2, because it won't let you mess up, and has everything at your fingertips.
There's actually another really useful feature the app has, which is the ability to export not as a character sheet, but as a STATBLOCK. I've found that pathbuilder 2e is actually an incredibly efficient way to build NPCs and custom humanoid enemies for encounters for this reason. Aside from that, the organization in the app in general is 10x that of the web app. I actually like to use it as a player oftentimes just for the quick access to the PRD pages or descriptions of skill actions. Not to mention how much easier it is to track spell slots from different sources ( innate/dedication/class ) which is handled automatically.
Hey Nonat. Appreciate the informative videos. A quick note; Penultimate means second to last in a series of things. Assuming one saves the best for last, then penultimate would be second best. I used to make the same mistake which is why I’m dropping you a line. Keep up the great work! I’m digging the channel.
Thank you for this Nonat... going to yoink this app as I have a definite use for it. Like you I wouldn't use something like this for my characters, but being able to throw together a level 7 custom cleric for an NPC is very handy.
I love ya NoNat, but you know you can minimize the tabs so you don't have to scroll as much right? You expanded everything and then complained that everything was expanded....
The trouble is its pretty clear he went in with a bias and viewed everything about the App (the beta web version at that) through that lens from the start. He made no attempts at even considering there could be simple fixes to his gripes. He complains about the order they present character building options when you can just skip an item and come back to it. A lot of complaints about things that aren't actually an issue or could have been done a different way.
The appeal of Pathbuilder is the app, which is way farther ahead with programming and therefore a lot better than the online desktop version. As a GM I use it to always have the builds of my players with me to read up on rules during leisure time or while waiting for the tram or stuff like that and I can keep them updated very easily.
That comes from two things : the effect of surprise for seeing the first time and the overall feeling about the software. You can try to be as objective as you possible, there always a comparison element that's gonna impact your reaction and if the overall feeling is " underwhelmed " even the good things are gonna be less exciting. Especially since those videos are made from fresh reaction ( as opposed to a review where you go through both software, then write and record the video ).
One major difference between the two programs that I think you missed is that wanderers guide is hard to use if the character you are making is not starting at level 1. It presents you with all of your feats and then all of your skill increases and then hides the starting skills on the last page instead of going through everything level by level.
This is about the review I would expect for the desktop version, which is much worse than the mobile version IMO. One thing I like about pathbuilder is that the level ups are VERY clear. I know what I need to do for that level. Wanderer's Guide (while nice) is early in development but the flashy presentation for me gets in the way of actually building the character I want. Having to scroll through ALL the flavor text really annoyed me when I already know all the things for the character options, as I obsessively read every book as it comes out. That's not necessarily a problem, but I'm a forever GM more or less, and I often use character builds to figure out what an important NPCs sheet might look like. I sometimes lay in bed and stat out 4 or 5 characters to build out ideas for people the players can run into. One other thing to note is that most of my players use pathbuilder strictly for the level ups, because we play in fantasy grounds, which has a notoriously terrible level up experience. The automation is great, but the annoyance of getting leveled up makes pathbuilder a great companion to it. I also know some people that use pathbuilder for PFS because pen and paper sheets aren't amazing at giving you the exact text as to how X spell works and piddling around in your book (or on AoN) while at a table with strangers can be a pain. Overall I think it does come down to what you use it for. There's probably something to be said for using wanderer's guide in lieu of roll 20's terrible character sheet/rolling capabilities as well. Ultimately, I think there is a lot of space for PF2 digital assistance. The game is complex and playing/running it can be made a lot easier through the use of digital tools. I think if I ever run IRL again I might actually use Fantasy Grounds on a laptop to keep track of combat stuff. Automatic condition calculations are just SO nice and allow me to focus on more important things while running. Anyway, sorry for the novel response. Good video and all that.
My players love this app and for the longest time I didn't really care to use it, but then I discovered that instead of sending me pdfs of their character sheets you can just send a link and that will load up their character sheet. It's pretty nifty.
My players really appreciate the Pathbuilder phone app because it allows them to quickly compare leveling options. My main complaint is that Pathbuilder unintentionally hides Archetype options. The way it functions makes it difficult to compare Archetype options like you would other options.
Nonat, I love your videos, and your takes on things. I appreciate you going out of your way to explain how you normally play and how a mobile version isn't attractive to you. Despite all that, when you're evaluating a product version other than the one that has all the hype, just because it has the same name, you are kind of missing the point. I think you should take another look at the mobile app and see if that is more user-friendly for you. Also there are a lot of parts of Pathbuilder that you didn't even get into on this. Some of my favorite functionality involves being able to tap a skill and see you're available actions for that skill, or adding conditions to modify all of the relevant stats of your character. Those are super helpful to be able to use real time as you are playing.
@@philllllllll Yes it really is the best character builder for 2e, at least the mobile version is. And considering it is free to use 90% of its features (putting animal companions and custom items behind a modest 2.99 paywall) I'd say well worth it.
@@mattyb9991 I agree. I showed it to my players and they ALL bought the full version without me prompting and they all use it instead of a paper sheet at the table whenever we play. It is beyond ridiculously helpful. You can even adjust HP and conditions!
@@philllllllll I have the exact same story, as I'm beginning to suspect many of us do. It was essential in giving me the confidence to even try and GM, and doubly so for my (new to TTRPG) friends in getting over over the initial bump-in-the-road character creation presents and helped indirectly lead to what is now a weekly game and avid hobby of ours!
I know nonat is a big fan of mobile. Just thought to add that i've giving my players who never played pathfinder, and they quickly understood how to navigate everything.
I definitely agree on the scrolling problem for the web app. It's a lot more intuitive as a mobile app and feels extremely fluid to use there. The web app was kind of like a direct port over trying to make it "feel" as close to the mobile version as possible which doesn't really translate well on a web app. Given time though I do hope the web app is going to get some major improvements. One of the things that keeps me coming back to Pathbuilder is that Redrazors, the dev who made it is extremely communicative on the PF2e Reddit and does a great job about addressing bugs and other things whenever they're found. Content is also added within days of a new book dropping too which is really nice.
The "block of text" criticism is also my opinion for the descriptions in the video games Pathfinder Kingmaker and Wrath of the Righteous (beta). My "user friendly'" mentality (I was a webmaster) wants short, separated and bold or colorized effects or keywords. That said, for this online tool, maybe they plan to do that later, as it is a huge job just inserting the core original text and functions.
i (and many others in our server) use pathbuilder for a few reasons 1. we don't use it as a character sheet, strickly a character builder, so most of the compaints don't apply to our use (gear and navigating to different values) 2. ease of exporting, be it manual (we used to go to other tabs for weapon, armor, and saving throws proficiencies but not since they added classes to foundry's PF2e which automates them) or automatic (6 digit/letter code to use in foundry, though if you didn't buy the premium you can share the character and have someone else export it) 3. ease of use, make the character in a single list and choices can be changed easily if desired, you also don't need to go through a few pages to create a character. if i can't export it (web version for example) i would just look at the level plan list and skills tab
I personally think the browser builder is better suited for those gms that want to track everyones character for honesty sake. Your biggest complaint was all the scrolling you were doing, which can be bothersome, you can also click the window for weapons or spells again to close the menu and minimize scrolling. But as you said it is a character planner and that is its strongest asset
I also prefer wayfinder over pathbuilder. I don't like using phones at the table. But my biggest gripe about pathbuilder is that they don't have the rights to use any of Paizo's Golarion specific terms for many of the feats and spells in the system. Like the Pathfinder Agent Archetype is called 'Guildmember' in Pathbuilder. My players LOOOOOOVE Pathbuilder, but they are always getting bad information from the program. It's gotten to where I have to constantly ask them to look on Nethys for a feat's real name so I know what they are talking about. Also there's a few feats that have Golarion specific ethnicity requirements....Pathbuilder doesn't mention that. One of my players was devastated she couldn't take like three different feats because she wanted to be Varisian, but the feat requirements stated you had to be Nidalese or Ekutani - and they knew I wasn't waiving those requirements. But Pathbuilder's lack of that kind of information meant she was planning ahead incorrectly.
Thankfully, looking on Nethys for that feat's real name and specific terminology is just one click of a button away! Which, if you're planning your character ahead of time (which this is obviously built for), you would easily have the time for. There is little-to-no 'bad information' in Pathbuilder - you just need to look a little deeper with things that are obviously generic-sounding requirements.
I didn't noticed for 1st few months, but in pathbulder, can use free archetype, duel class, incremental ability score increase, no lvl mod options. As well as custom additional feats & ability to include house rules. (Mostly)
I still believe Pathbuilder is the best. You really should try the mobile version, it's much more organized than the browser version. I tried Wanderers Guide and I honestly found it pretty confusing haha
Which is weird that, with all that extra space, it's somehow more cluttered. If they had just done the tabs system in the browser version, I think it would've been better.
@@Nonat1s the browser version is literally brand new as of like 2 months ago? The mobile app has been in development since the launch of Pathfinder 2e and he has worked over the last few months in converting the code to something else so that it could run on browsers as well. Just finished doing that very recently and obviously hasn't optimized it for browsers yet. That said, the mobile app is amazing.
@@Nonat1s It's still is beta and being based on the mobile app, it'll likely see better formatting over time. Plus, I personally enjoy planning out PCs, with room for edits later. It feels like Wanderer's not good for back and forth editing. But, I'm just happy that we have both options.
Pathbuilder makes making a character sooooooo easy for beginners. Pathfinder 2e is a pretty complex game, but this program especially the mobile version makes it so easy to get started.
Press Menue, then let you export your build as an PDF. Done, You have a normal charactersheet. In the mobile, you can do anything to your pet or familiar, you can do everything with spells.... on a tablet, i can use everything, save it up and done, i dont need anything more. And you can always go to PRD
I like Pathbuilder to just whip up a new level 1 character. I don't know what all the backgrounds give me or what all the feats do. Now I just click on them and I can see what they do. It also allows me to easily set up my stats, which by hand is just a nightmare, IMHO. After that, I just copy it onto a (digital) character sheet and never use it again. As you said, Wanderer's Guide is great for an actual character sheet, but I just want a quick character creation tool, and Pathbuilder is perfect for that.
I like this and Wanderer's Guide for different things. Pathbuilder for creating characters and leveling up, Wanderer's Guide for having all the info on one page. Though I think Pathbuilder is easier for customizing, which is necessary for some Pathfinder Society options.
I use a paper character sheet at the game table, but the mobile app is an excellent tool for playing with character concepts and seeing how choices affect the build at different levels. Great for exploring ideas before commiting to them at game time.
Tbh, I really don't think you gave Pathbuilder a fair chance at all. When doing Wanderer's you went in all excited and had googly eyes the entire time. Everything excited you. When EVERYONE mentioned Pathbuilder, you went in with an EXTREMELY hesitant/dismissive attitude, used an Alpha/Beta Build browser instead of checking the intended and native App, and everything that was "good" about wanderer, you kinda dismissed about Pathbuilder. The biggest thing was the "scrolling" issue. You were REALLY hung on that, but on the app, everything has its own tab. Need saves? Defense tab. Familiar? Pet tab. The other was the levelling. You like to build your level as you go. You know how much that slows down a table of 5 new players who have to do that? In Pathbuilder, "You gained a level. Click click, done. Let's Play." The browser will eventually get there. Just my opinion. You're entitled to your opinion. It just seems you went into it knowing you were not going to like it.
The mobile version starts you on the beginning window and shows you just the panel on the left to start so its not as overwhelming. When I first played we had one book but we all had our phones with us.
Mostly what I like about it is how it tells me what I get at each level, to make sure I don't forget 'oh I get an ancestry feat at this level' etc. I don't use path builder for the actual character sheet itself, but more to help me pick options as I level up to make sure I don't miss something
I've been using both since the first video you did on wanderers guide. I do have the full paid version of both. (meaning the mobile version of pathbuilder on my tablet) I find builder more customizable so far and it wins with the export function hands down. My players can export character sheets, and I can export things as stat blocks. And I found that infinitely useful.
How. Dare. You!!?! Nah, your criticisms are valid. Good points on all of them. I still prefer Pathbuilder over Wanderer's Guide for a multitude of reasons. But I am the type of person who likes to have at least a loose plan for a character so that I can fit in everything I want to do. For that reason, along with a host of others, Pathbuilder wins hands down for me.
Hero Labs Online is hands down the best character builder for Pathfinder 2e. The only issue is that it is expensive (especially if you are on your own or a new player). Now, if the new player has a DM that invested in HLO, they pay $1.25 per month and can even have that subscription gifted to them. I'm the perma GM for my group. They were all brand new to PF2e and PF/ DND in general. I had some of them test HLO vs PB2e vs WG and each of them picked HLO as their preferred tool. Bonus: The Gm can throw all the character on the "Stage" and have access to all of their sheets, updated in real time, for the game.
The mobile version is much better. I recommend just installing Bluestacks (the android emulator) and using the mobile version of Pathbuilder right on your computer. Also I'm fairly certain that when you have something like a natural attack or improved fist attack, there are unique versions of those in the weapons list.
Both builders are very good, but I like Pathbuilder more just because it's easy to test out character builds in my free time without having to boot up my computer
Pathbuilder has two great features that makes it fantastic: 1. is designed for mobile users, who can plan characters on the fly everywhere using the full extend of the ruleset (so you know instantly if you qualify for certain feats without check everything everytime), 2. you can search for stuff you probably even don't know exists at first but can be very cool for the character you are planning/playing (tho 1e search was much better). You said Pathbuilder is intended to player who build characters 1-20 for min-max, but - at least in my experience - you can plan stuff you like and change it later in the campaign according to experience or flavour. Last thing you are right: Pathbuilder is not a good character sheet, but i think paper or other custom solution are much better than everything on the internet.
I have dozens of characters created in Pathbuilder and have to say that it is so easy and quick. Of course I use the mobile version which is much more streamlined. The biggest thing about it in my opinion is how it checks your character and shows you if you made a mistake and even better, makes it harder to make one. I've had multiple cases of GMing and helping players plan their characters only to find that they took a feet they didn't qualify for on paper because they forgot that XYZ needed expert proficiency in skill ABC. It also really helped my new player understand character creation by breaking down each secions on their ability score choices and feat selection. Another great feature is being able to share characters with anybody else and have it load in Pathbuilder. My whole group uses the app and then we just send the character to the GM via Pathbuilder which helps with things like secret rolls and building unique scenarios around character backgrounds. Finally, I sometimes find it fun to make characters even if I may never play them. I've made Darth Vader, Dumbledore, Frodo, Captain Picard, and others through Pathbuilder just to see what they would look like in PF2e and this app is fantastic for that.
Pathbuilder 2e's mobile app is definitely a lot more intuitive just by virtue of being further along in development, and the layout was pretty clearly designed for mobile devices. What's great about it is how it clearly shows you what you qualify for, organizes available options by level and item level, links to the PRD page for each option for ease of access, and allows you to limit sourcebooks and availability for specific campaigns. So for instance, if you're running through Age of Ashes and your party just started Book 2, you can enable only Book 1 of the AP since you shouldn't have access to anything else at that time and could get spoiled otherwise. Niche details, I know, but I really appreciate having an app to design characters and stuff while I'm away from my computer.
Honestly I think the browser version is pretty bad atm. Hoping it’ll get better, and I am glad it exists, to help my players. Personally I will always prefer hero lab, but that price is wayyyy too high. So for the time being I’ll stick to manually making the foundry sheets.
As a GM I use the paid version of Pathbuilder on my phone with the books to help my players create and level up their characters. I then convert to PDF and print. If the player wants to use their tablet I recommend them putting their sheet into Wanderer's Guide. Some people like the pen and paper and some prefer digital. Both are great and I use them both (but I also use Astral for the digital maps and World Anvil for the story so I like diversifying...)
If you use the phone app, you can export a pdf which you can print out, and it gives you a filled out character sheet *edit* Didnt finish video when posting comment wasn't able to finish but still stands the printable pdf is awesome and also is amazing when it comes to spells
Sorry for how long this comment is lol.. At the 8 minute mark, just wanted to answer some points that have come up. I personally adore pathbuilder, but on mobile. The web browser just released, and for now is kind of just a conversion. I agree with it being far less pleasing to the eye. The drop downs are all separate pages on mobile. The pet/familiar page is a paid page, as are some of the variant rule options. I have the paid version, which I believe was about 5 bucks. I'm hoping the web browser version improves a lot, because its only available on Android for mobile. Also, for the fist, you can actually choose from a list of unique unarmed attacks, but im not sure if that's on the web version yet or not. You can also create custom weapons. There are some things that are clunky with pathbuilder, but its overall design is great, the creator is very active in the reddit community, and he updates incredibly fast. Had the last ancestry guide updated into it within maybe 2 days? All in all, I love this app, but I definitely agree that the web browser version is pretty lack luster for now. I'm hoping that improves. Weather you make a video or not, I do suggest checking out the app, just so you can see what pathbuilder really is lol
Another reason me, and the rest of our party, have the paid version, is that you can build with dual class and free archetype, and thats what our party is lol. Having this available is great, since character sheets don't really have a good way to include those options
I love pathbuilder 2e. When I DMed Pathfinder 2e for the first time to my D&D 5e players they were amazed with the app. So cool to see what you gained in every level and easy to use.
@@Nonat1s The desktop version just got into beta like last month. The mobile version has been out for much longer and is way more developed at the moment
@@Nonat1s It simply misses additionial functions like free archetype and familiar/animal companion support etc. because....... well it is atm in the early access beta and is freshly released. In any other way it is almost completely like the mobile version. So i don't where @Will Swanson is coming from
@@Nonat1s Substantially worse, but only because it IS just a beta, it will improve with time. For now, the mobile version is far better optimised and stands in a league of it's own as far as being free, accessible, and intuitive to use.
My Background: I use Herolab Online to keep the "official" versions of all my players' characters. They mostly use Pathbuilder to maintain their characters and send me the updates. I've also used Pathbuilder. I'd never heard of Wanderer's Guide until this video. My group uses Pathbuilder because it works very well, can be used for free, and doesn't require any linking to any of their accounts. My Experience: I went to use Wanderer's Guide, and unlike Pathbuilder, it wanted me to log in with Reddit or Google. No other options. I can't just use it without registering or register with an email address. *shrug* Obviously, Wanderer's Guide not designed for me or my group.
@@Nonat1s seriously, every single one of my players stopped using paper sheets altogether. The mobile app for Pathbuilder let's you adjust your HP, add or remove conditions, buffs and debuffs which affect your stats in real time. It's super easy to navigate and it's so good that ALL of my players (six of them) voluntarily paid for the app to unlock full features and just have their phone flat on the table and use that instead of a paper sheet. I sound like a fanboy but that's because I am. The pathbuilder app is fucking incredible.
yes the phone up is better than web browser... Pathbuilder is a good tool for DM since you can Export the npc as a stat block so is easier to manage than a full character sheet and that is something to take in considerations. Nice Video... on the App you got to pay 5 dolars (all that) to access to the free arquetipe and the pets-tabs... and there is no "playtest" content avaible on the app so that are points for wanderer guide (u$s 5 is no much unless you are in a 3rd world country like me and is really hard to pay dolars to buy anything)
Also Wanderer Guide is more like D&Dbeyond but free, you can pay for extra character slots (you dont need that on Pathbuilder) and you have access to Hombrew made by other Wanderer guide users...
TL;DR Both programs are good at what they are intended to do thus both programs ARE good!!! Some will like it some will NOT, there's NOTHING wrong with either or anyone who uses either program. Wanderer's Guide is a GREAT character creator/sheet, which is it's purpose! Pathbuilder, as people have said, is a CHARACTER BUILDER, something that not everyone is going to want to do because they don't plan their characters. As someone who used to look at prestige classes to see what I can work INTO, I DO like having something that will store a PLAN so I have a guide to use for what I MIGHT want to take later, I will try to NEVER have things so it is set in stone because you never know what is goin to happen during a game that might change how you are playing, and thus how you are making, your character!
Hero Lab is great if you’re a permanent DM. There’s a super cheap subscription option for players that let’s you share content with them and house all of your information under the same campaign.
Appreciate you reviewing the browser version and explaining why you chose to review that version. Android version may be so much better but personally I dont like to use my phone during game so this is the version I would need to like.
Then give it a bit of time to further develop and come back to it later before writing it off. Its a brand new beta that doesn't even have all of the app features yet and wasn't planned to be made in the first place because the creator was more comfortable with Android programming. Also, you can use an android emulator like Bluestacks in order to run the full-feature mobile app on a computer.
@@KingJulius4 :) and I haven't written it off. Many great comments in this thread that help add to an understanding of strengths, weaknesses. And potentials of the different programs! Doesn't change my appreciation for Nonat showing the current state of this choice and fostering this discussion.
Uh, you might want to try this again but with Pathbuilder 2e current version. It's ten times faster than Wanderer's Guide (no loading swirly, ever), ten times more compact, and has ten times the no-login-required. Actually, infinitely more "no login required". I tried building a sheet in Wanderer's, and I had to bounce all over the place just to make a level 5 character (having to go back to redo stats because I messed up on stats and didn't qualify for Champion Dedication was incredibly cancerous). Plenty of crap was non-intuitive, and there's junk like skill assurance having to be typed in and not showing you current skill levels when being offered an upgrade and deity's favored weapon being an effing useless text field. How the heck do I add weapon training? Since it's not doing it automatically for the favored weapon, I have to put in a custom one..where? PB2e might not be perfect, but it's better almost _universally_ than Wanderer's Guide. Almost everything bad in PB2e is in Wanderer's Guide, but ten times worse. Oh, and press 'restore' to put your armor back on.
You can use an Android Emulator like Nox to use Pathbuilder mobile app on your PC. It works great and is much better than the browser version (and the mobile version less frustrating for new players because of the better, less intimidating layout). The browser version is very very beta and underwhelming imo. The problem I have with Wanderer's Guide is its very long loading times. Also, to be fair Wanderer's Guide has long chunks of text as well. Nonetheless, thanks so much for covering these fantastic tools! Of course, everyone has their favorite way of creating characters :)
I have never heard of this one, or Wanderers Guide before your videos. Wanderers Guide crashed so often whenever I used it on 3 different browsers. Are we ever going to get a review of Hero Lab Online for Pathfinder 2E?
@@Nonat1s Yeah, the main reason I haven't tried Wanderer's Guide is it loads forever on either Firefox or Chrome for me. That is, sometimes it will take literal minutes to load a screen; sometimes it'll just never load at all.
I don't see how you can complain about scrolling (which can be minimized by collapsing tabs, as others have noted) when Wanderer's Guide forces you to scroll past the entire multi-paragraph description - that can't be collapsed - of the ancestry or class you want just to get to your next choice. Not to mention that it's multiple webpages that need clicking through. Pathbuilder ain't perfect, but it definitely doesn't require more scrolling than Wanderer's Guide, and it's all on a single page.
Some things that would definitely help from a UI perspective in the online version: Tabs rather than expandable sections for offense/defense and the like. And brief descriptions of the runes would be nice... Like, show the portion of the description that fits in the window. Maybe it doesn't work perfectly, but it'd at least give you some idea on what feats/items did.
I really liked using Pathbuilder for a bit, but when I had to make a character (and also a character sheet) by hand for a different system, I felt a way deeper connection with my character because I was crafting every single detail of the character as opposed to just clicking some buttons and pretty much having it made for me.
I seriously connect to this comment. Even now, I still do most of my character building manually. It just feels like a more satisfying result when you read the book, studied your options, and flipped through the pages yourself to decide who you wanted this character to be. (At least to me)
Honestly for me, pathbuilder is a great tool for those "No computers at the table" style games. I know a lot of folks run with games, but a large (and seemingly growing) amount of tables want to run without computers as barriers between the players, and to help people stay focused on the game. Pathbuilder on your mobile device is a great way to find a compromise, because it provides all the information and tools you should need right there on your screen, without the large monitors in the way and without as much risk of getting lost in the infinite tab creation.
I think you hit the nail on the head with the function of both programs. Pathbuilder is the best to plan out your character while Wanderer's Guide is probably better to use in play. Pathbuilder2E has added a lot of in-play functions compared to Pathbuilder1E, but it's still not ideal. I agree with the aesthetic not being the best. I'd much rather have something that looks as slick as the FoundryVTT character sheet, but when I asked the dev, he said he intentionally kept it as minimalist as possible since it's designed for phones and adding more graphical stuff would make it not function as well as it does. I really think if you were not reviewing the Android version, you may have well not done a review at all though. The main thing you disliked about this one (the scrolling) is not a thing in the mobile version and may not be a thing on the finished product. You also hit the nail in the head about your expectations going in. I think your review of both products would have been entirely different had you checked Pathbuilder before WG. The things you got excited about while reviewing WG were extremely basic. In any case, WG still seems like a great product, and I would probably use it over PB if I were playing in person with a laptop instead of a tablet and I didn't already have my sheet on FoundryVTT. Thanks for the video :)
Pathbuilder is amazing! I have used the android version for years for PF1e and now PF2e. I think the issue is that NoNat didn’t spend enough time orienting himself to it before complaining about features that are there as other commenters noted. I do appreciate the review though.
I think the critique is fair. I would point out that you can still build a character level by level during the course of a campaign. You don't have to pre-build all of the levels.
The mobile version is far superior but in the end I always print the pdfs so that I get the original sheet and dont have to use their UI during the game, not really a problem.
Fair judgement of the BETA version (and you mentioned it few times, hats up to you). To be honest I didn't even know what Browser version exist, I use App and I like it. "there may be other, better, but this is mine" :)
Well the majority of us recognise that Pathbuilder 2 (mobile version) is the best electronic character sheet available. It's even better than the paper character sheet from the Corebook. Easy to locate what you need by swiping screens.
84 seconds in, so I have yet to see the full video. BlueStacks is something that allows you to run Android applications on your desktop computer. Considering that the Pathbuilder 2E application is over a year old, while the web version of Pathbuilder is less than 3 months old, it'll be interesting to see what the differences are. (Purchased the Pathbuilder 2E version on Android, myself.)
10 minutes in. NoNat, you expanded every subsection. If you had them all collapsed, you could've easily found Defense, then opened it to see your saving throws. Just an FYI.
14 minutes in. So, I have a level 8 Monk in Pathbuilder 2E that just hit level 9. So, I add another level, then select the level 9 feats. With Pathbuilder 2E already purchased, I can export a Foundry VTT code to import that directly into Foundry. Or, generate a PDF. Or a Statblock. So, yes, you can level-by-level select as the character advances...
Pathbuilder 2E actually exports a six-digit JSON code. Which, with the proper module active in Foundry, you directly import. (I have done this for several months at this point, and my Pathbuilder 2E User ID code has remained constant during that time, regardless of the character I am exporting. So, there's some internet going on there...)
To be honest about your overall review: 1) I think that, should you have reviewed Pathbuilder 2E before Wanderer's Guide, you may not have been as harsh on Pathbuilder 2E as you have been,. 2) If you used BlueStacks (or Nox? Another commenter said something about that), you would've had the side-by-side swipe. 3) I think that, as all 20 levels are showing, you believe this strictly to be a "Make it and then run with the script" as opposed to the level by level guide it could be (something you knocked). 4) Honestly, with as many people who have fallen in love with Pathbuilder 2E (myself included), I feel the overall review was a little bit of a bash on a tool that hundreds of people use, simply because as you were going through you didn't see the possibilities that Pathbuilder 2E brings to the table.
I do want to note that, while the digital character sheet seems pretty cumbersome, the printed sheet is pretty much a normal 2e Character sheet. It does have the ability to print the notes on pretty much everything, which can create a small book, but that does allow new players to know exactly what their abilities do. That being said, I'm not sure this would be as useful as onboard character creators in Virtual tabletops. Live games are great, but online ones probably would find this app less useful.
One thing I kind of hold against Wanderer's huide over Pathbuilder is the need for an account. Maybe after the beta it'll be necessary for Pathbuilder too (i mean for the paid version it'll obviously be) but I don't like having to use a separate account for every little thing. Though I must that it does look good.
Wanderer's is fine for beginners, but if you RP a lot of Pathfinder I think Pathbuilder is better in the long run. If you decide to pay for either of these products, Pathbuilder gives you more for the money since it is a one time payment versus Wanderer's subscription based model. I can see how Wanderer guiding a new player through creation is enticing, but I got sick of clicking back and forth through multiple pages to create and tweak my character as I explored various options when I first tried it. Especially since at that time, it only provides the basic info you need for the page you are on so you couldn't see the wider effects any changes you made had. Pathbuilder presents it all on one page which to me seems the better choice for players who have done character generation before and may not need the handholding that Wanderer's provides while still presenting the details needed to make the proper choices. Wanderer's is great for the new or very casual RPer who will only have up to 6 characters in play, or being designed, at a time. If you find yourself more involved with RP than that, you likely would do better with a different choice. For those who want assistance in character creation and prefer to get the most value for the cost, I think Pathbuilder is a great option.
I think it’s strength is the clarity it gives on Leveling up. In wanderer’s guide leveling up can feel a bit confusing. I can sometimes skip a step because I missed a tab. So it’s very clear here what you get during your level up. However i spend ten times more time playing the character so having a better interactive character sheet is more important to me. So I have to give Wanderer’s guide the win. I’m eager to see new programs come out or updates that make the best of both.
I just used Wanderer's Guide, and yes, Pathbuilder is by far the best. I found it really hard to create a character, it loaded a lot (I don't know why but I had to refresh the page twice to make it work). By the end, you end up with a nice character sheet, but I use Pathbuilder to BUILD my character... after that, I export it to Foundry or print the pdf. Nonat's points are also valid, and I hope they improve the system in the next version. Btw, the mobile version is the best.
I'll say what I said in the last video: Pathbuilder is the superior phone app, Wanderers is the better desktop. Pathbuilders functionality is perfect for the phone, and ATM the desktop version is a desktop version of the app not so much a standalone, which mean functions that work great on the phone might not be ideal for desktop. Wanders by comparison has a super sexy desktop layout. If Quzzar and Redrazor would team up (and honestly Paizo should contract them and give them access to licensed assets) they could make the perfect cross-platform character builder for 2E. I hope you give Pathbuilder a second shot when it goes to alpha too
My one problem with Pathbuilder is, as a newbie, it doesn't tell me how many spells I know in my spellbook. It get really hard on later levels to know this kind of information
Some of my favorite features of the mobile version is being able to import directly into foundry and being able to send/receive other pathbuilder builds directly to my phone. Helps when my players need me to look over stuff. But yeah, comparing pathbuilder web without all of the features will put a big dent on opinion.
I'd use Bluestacks with the mobile version if I really wanted to use PC over mobile device. Web version has been out for such a short period of time, it's honestly not what people were talking about in the Wayfinder comments. I've used a Wayfinder few times since it came out and the layout is simply not as good for building a character out. As an example, while you didn't like taking your Ancestry feat after your Class feat, you don't have to. You can skip over it, go to the next, and complete them in any order you like. It will remain red and show you what needs to be completed. Compared to Wayfinder where it's all on different pages and much more fiddly if you want to build in a different order than how they want you to. Also, export to a character sheet if you want a character sheet. I disliked everytime you referred to the builder like it was a character sheet.
As a brand new player I liked pathbuilder bc I could read everything all in one place rather than the tons of books pathfinder has. I feel like I'm missing out if I can't see all my options or something that would fit better.
Just started mucking about with the web version recently, and it looks like there have been some advancements since this video, I love the mobile version so I can noodle around without scratching out or erasing stuff.
I don't think you realize how big of a deal it is to not use the app. The browser is very very new. The experience using the app and the browser are worlds apart. I recommend a second review of the actual app as that is what people would swear by.
The contrast between this "impressions" and the wandered guide are stark. The first minutes of OMG it has ____! Are all things Pathbuilder has and did long ago. It feels like either this was an obligated response after a sponsored video, or Nonat is way too affected by exposure novelty.
Nonat, you would have a vastly different experience if you used the Mobile version. I've used it since release, and didn't even know about/pay attention to a browser version. I totally understand that as a streamer it's hard to use/review a mobile platform app. However, you can use an emulator like Bluestacks to run the app and can see the difference. Congratulations though. I believe this is your most heavily commented video.
The main reason I use Pathbuilder is specifically because it was originally a mobile application. I can plan my characters literally anywhere I can use my phone. Personally I use pen and paper when playing or GMing, but it's because I've printed off a character sheet exported from Pathbuilder. Same for Foundry since Pathbuilder also exports VTT. As far as players wanting to use a virtual character sheet while playing, I will almost always recommend Wanderer's Guide.
I'm pinning this comment because it PERFECTLY nails the different use for each program.Thank you for doing my work for me. ♥
@@Nonat1s And thank you for introducing me to Wanderer's Guide lol. Can't believe a free application that's so intuitive and aesthetic flew mostly under the radar until your spotlight.
I can second this. I introduce players to PF2 through Pathbuilder, but since I am pretty proficient with it, I can help a player produce a new character in minutes. What I like about it over Wanderer’s Guide is the ability to print the character sheet. Like you, I discourage players from using electronics at the table; I saw an over-reliance on HeroLab in PF1.
I’d love to hear your opinions about the spell card decks and item decks. As both a player AND a GM, I find both of these extremely helpful at the tabletop.
I may say that mobile is a dozen times better, so i think that looking on the computer version was a mistake, as it's not really the thing every body hiped.
@@michaelvonhasseln8932 As a GM I love the condition card deck. Items and Spells I leave up to the players on how they want to keep track of their own. I know prefer Pen and paper at the table, even when plotting or creating content for my world I find it a lot easier with a physical book as I tend to be able to focus better then with a PDF. The Digital books are great when trying to quick search/reference something.
The strongest asset is its error-checking. Don’t have enough Training in Athletics for that Skill you want? Don’t worry, it’s already been filtered out. Want to only see Ancestry feats that you meet the prerequisites for? No worries, that’s already done by default.
Pathbuilder prevents errors/mistakes, and that’s the thing I’ll always appreciate most.
This dude gets it.
THIS. As a GM to players new to the system it probably saved me hours in going over their character sheets and correcting errors they easily would have missed while simultaneously explaining the WHY of it all to them as they quickly discovered through experimenting themselves. That said this did create an initial gap in their knowledge of the creation system, but having characters built PROPERLY under their belts meant we could quickly cover anything that they didn't understand intuitively from using the app without having to rebuild their PC from the ground up.
I didn't discover Pathbuilder until I was trying to navigate how to upgrade my level 1 character to level two. I found Pathbuilder then and it showed me that in my initial character creation, I'd missed two skill increases and an ability boost! I had to inform my GM that I had to correct that error. The error checking alone I agree is worth using.
when people hype pathbuilder they hype the mobile version not the browser one. And the fact that it's so freaking easy to make custom gear in pathbuilder + not having to wait 5 seconds after you click any button makes it the best pathfinder 2e character builder out there
Yup that's basically it. Simple and straightforward but kind of ugly xD
Yeah, this makes my point too.
He was recommended the mobile app and not the browser, but he reviewed the browser.
@@forger03 But it's a fair review. Most of what he said is also the same in the app. Pathbuilder is great but it's a tool for experienced players to keep track with characters all over.
That and you don't have to pay for any homebrew stuff - I'm looking at you Wanderer's Guide
Pathbuilder app is hands down the single best tool I have ever used for any RPG I have ever played, ever.
I've no clue of how many hours I've spend on Pathbuilder planning characters I'll probably never play 😂
I bet there's A LOT of people just like that here haha
I feel called out by this comment
I created over a hundred different characters on it.
I dont have 60+ "backup" characters and NPCs saved in my phone... Shut up. Stop looking at me. Leave me alone!
@@RancidPandemic That's ma boi!
@@philllllllll So proud of you m8
I don't think it's fair to compare a version that isn't complete, but that's me. My favorite part of pathbuilder is the automatic character sheet.
It's also not fair to compare the browser version of something built to be in the browser first and a mobile adapted to the browser. While ignoring the mobile version.
100% agree, its unfortunate and totally unfair. I like both for different reasons.
I mean Wander's Guide is only in Beta too, so it seems pretty fair to me. That said all my players and I use either VTT tools to keep track of actual play, or pen and paper. So Wander's Guide doesn't really help me out.
Wanderer's Guide also isn't complete so 🤷♂️. And it also wouldn't be 'fair' to compare a browser tool to an app, since the format is fundamentally different
Pathbuilder helped me and my players to get into pathfinder 2e. I started my first game as a GM 6 months after the launch of the game and pathbuilder was the only free option I found to help create a character. All my players were new to pathfinder 2e and most were new to ttrpg in general.
They all made their first character easily and loved the app instantly. As I GM, I loved the ease of sharing their character sheet with me within the app and as a user of Foundry Tabletop for our online game, I like the fact that I can easily import a character from pathbuilder into my game with no effort at all.
You're perfectly free to pick things "out of order" in Pathbuilder.
indeed, Nonat1 makes it seem like you have to follow a pre-made order. That's not the case, he would have realized it if he spent 5 minutes more trying out pathbuilder before deciding it was bad.
@@lorenzovaletti4951 Where did he say it's bad? He was pretty explicit about saying that it's good for what it wants to do, but what it wants to do isn't what he wants from it.
You're complaining about the scrolling on the "character sheet", but that's not a character sheet or meant to be used while playing. You make a character and export as a PDF to print and play with.
Pathbuilder was hyped because for years it has been the only pathfinder character builder completely free and complete in app form.
The web version's UI being cumbersome is partly because of it being new. That said, you have to scroll a lot less when you leave tabs minimized when not using them.
Admittedly it isn't meant to be used as a character sheet, which is where the great exporting to other formats comes into play (The web PDF export seems brokenish now, but it'll be fixed). The monster form stat block is surprisingly useful.
Also, please try out Foundry. I'd love to see you cover it.
I'll be trying to look into Foundry at some point! Not sure when, but someday!
The monster stat block export is actually ingenious. As a GM whose started to prefer the simplicity of stat blocks over character sheets, I find the ability to export characters to the simple format super useful.
I actually kinda want to export my players' character in the same way to give them an easier-to-digest format for their characters stats and combat actions.
@@RancidPandemic Are you using a VTT or Pencil and Paper?
@@kevinbarnard355 I run a game in person with friends, but also play in another group of friends on Roll20. The in-person game is the one where I think the players would greatly benefit from having statblocks. They're new-ish to the system and haven't quite learned the extents of what they can do in combat. That's where I think the statblocks would help them because they are a great breakdown of actions.
@@RancidPandemic I love the NPC/monster sheet option in Roll20. I'm not sure how feasible something like Pathbuilder is as an in-game aide for action breakdown, but I imagine it's doable.
It may not be the best, but it is the thing that made me enter this wonderful world head on.
Besides you, of course
Oh you stop it ♥
Same for me, I had a very hard time understanding the d20 system, even months ago when I tried to create a character in DnD Beyond I had no clue of what I was doing. Skills, general feats, skill feats, spells.. it was a mess, and that's DnD!!
It was Pathbuilder that made the whole thing crystal clear for me. After a few min using it I understood how to create a character, how to level it up, etc.
I tried Wanderers Guide a few times and I honestly don't really get what's happening there haha. I find Pathbuilder super simple and easy to understand tho so I just love it. Thank you Pathbuilder's creators if you're reading it 💚
I know this has been said so many times already probably, but the scrolling aspect isn’t a problem on a tablet. It functions so much better. And he even said that everyone was saying to do the mobile version and then chooses to do the pc version. I get he doesn’t usually use mobile tablets but that’s what we hype it up for, not the PC version.
I like that you said it was good for what it is, just that it isn't made for you. Rather than just calling it bad and moving on.
An easy fix for the scrolling is to just minimize the tabs you aren't currently using. They're pretty easy to navigate, aside from Perception being on the Offense tab, always throws me off.
Personally it's not about planning 1-20 before session 1, but wanderer's guide felt like it was babying me. It's not bad really, I just prefer the "here's everything, pick your stuff" Rather than "Okay first things first we have to pick this. Then we do this. Then..." Plus the loading time between the Wanderer's Guide pages really just feels like forever, since I'm accustomed to swiping through the app where everything is already loaded. Honestly if they did a mobile app and it could all be pre-loaded and generally faster, I might use that over Pathbuilder.
And the phone version is miles better, the way it looks and it's ease of use is great. There are totally things it could benefit from, such as being able to customize weapons (Like you showed when you had the Iron Fist Feat and couldn't change the weapon)
Overall loved your video, great job yet again!
Pathbuilder almost singlehandedly taught me the basics of the game. It having links to the PRD, having restrictions and walking you through every option slowly was MONUMENTAL in driving me down the rabbithole of the rulebook hahaha.
As a sidenote, we dont pre-plan in our game (GM is giving us free archetype feats that are tailored to how we develop in the story) and pathbuilder still works great in that kind of character build.
All in all, the video is great feedback for the developer if anything else, but definitively a little harsh hahaha, it definitively deserves the hype it gets.
wanderer's guide has gold tracking: nonat "OH MY GOD!!!"
pathbuilder has gold tracking: nonat "eh.. it works.."
jk love your vids
haha, that is pure unfiltered human nature. The first time of anything is INCREDIBLE. After that, I've seen it before. 😂
Pathbuilder mobile is my ace because it works just fine offline, i am still eagerly waiting for the web version to get to the same completeness but i love it anyway
For me, I'm a die hard Hero Lab user, but I recognize that it's not a cheap option by a long shot. I've never really thought about it from the perspective of a new user, but I do credit with making me proficient a LOT faster, both with PF1 and PF2, because it won't let you mess up, and has everything at your fingertips.
There's actually another really useful feature the app has, which is the ability to export not as a character sheet, but as a STATBLOCK. I've found that pathbuilder 2e is actually an incredibly efficient way to build NPCs and custom humanoid enemies for encounters for this reason. Aside from that, the organization in the app in general is 10x that of the web app. I actually like to use it as a player oftentimes just for the quick access to the PRD pages or descriptions of skill actions. Not to mention how much easier it is to track spell slots from different sources ( innate/dedication/class ) which is handled automatically.
Hey Nonat. Appreciate the informative videos. A quick note; Penultimate means second to last in a series of things. Assuming one saves the best for last, then penultimate would be second best. I used to make the same mistake which is why I’m dropping you a line. Keep up the great work! I’m digging the channel.
Thank you for this Nonat... going to yoink this app as I have a definite use for it. Like you I wouldn't use something like this for my characters, but being able to throw together a level 7 custom cleric for an NPC is very handy.
I love ya NoNat, but you know you can minimize the tabs so you don't have to scroll as much right? You expanded everything and then complained that everything was expanded....
The trouble is its pretty clear he went in with a bias and viewed everything about the App (the beta web version at that) through that lens from the start. He made no attempts at even considering there could be simple fixes to his gripes. He complains about the order they present character building options when you can just skip an item and come back to it. A lot of complaints about things that aren't actually an issue or could have been done a different way.
The appeal of Pathbuilder is the app, which is way farther ahead with programming and therefore a lot better than the online desktop version. As a GM I use it to always have the builds of my players with me to read up on rules during leisure time or while waiting for the tram or stuff like that and I can keep them updated very easily.
Watching nonat practically jump and cheer "ahhhh its so good!" for the program checking if you have duplicates in ability boosts vs "hm, nice" in this
That comes from two things : the effect of surprise for seeing the first time and the overall feeling about the software. You can try to be as objective as you possible, there always a comparison element that's gonna impact your reaction and if the overall feeling is " underwhelmed " even the good things are gonna be less exciting. Especially since those videos are made from fresh reaction ( as opposed to a review where you go through both software, then write and record the video ).
One major difference between the two programs that I think you missed is that wanderers guide is hard to use if the character you are making is not starting at level 1. It presents you with all of your feats and then all of your skill increases and then hides the starting skills on the last page instead of going through everything level by level.
This is about the review I would expect for the desktop version, which is much worse than the mobile version IMO.
One thing I like about pathbuilder is that the level ups are VERY clear. I know what I need to do for that level. Wanderer's Guide (while nice) is early in development but the flashy presentation for me gets in the way of actually building the character I want. Having to scroll through ALL the flavor text really annoyed me when I already know all the things for the character options, as I obsessively read every book as it comes out.
That's not necessarily a problem, but I'm a forever GM more or less, and I often use character builds to figure out what an important NPCs sheet might look like. I sometimes lay in bed and stat out 4 or 5 characters to build out ideas for people the players can run into.
One other thing to note is that most of my players use pathbuilder strictly for the level ups, because we play in fantasy grounds, which has a notoriously terrible level up experience. The automation is great, but the annoyance of getting leveled up makes pathbuilder a great companion to it.
I also know some people that use pathbuilder for PFS because pen and paper sheets aren't amazing at giving you the exact text as to how X spell works and piddling around in your book (or on AoN) while at a table with strangers can be a pain.
Overall I think it does come down to what you use it for. There's probably something to be said for using wanderer's guide in lieu of roll 20's terrible character sheet/rolling capabilities as well.
Ultimately, I think there is a lot of space for PF2 digital assistance. The game is complex and playing/running it can be made a lot easier through the use of digital tools. I think if I ever run IRL again I might actually use Fantasy Grounds on a laptop to keep track of combat stuff. Automatic condition calculations are just SO nice and allow me to focus on more important things while running.
Anyway, sorry for the novel response. Good video and all that.
My players love this app and for the longest time I didn't really care to use it, but then I discovered that instead of sending me pdfs of their character sheets you can just send a link and that will load up their character sheet. It's pretty nifty.
My players really appreciate the Pathbuilder phone app because it allows them to quickly compare leveling options.
My main complaint is that Pathbuilder unintentionally hides Archetype options. The way it functions makes it difficult to compare Archetype options like you would other options.
Nonat, I love your videos, and your takes on things. I appreciate you going out of your way to explain how you normally play and how a mobile version isn't attractive to you. Despite all that, when you're evaluating a product version other than the one that has all the hype, just because it has the same name, you are kind of missing the point. I think you should take another look at the mobile app and see if that is more user-friendly for you. Also there are a lot of parts of Pathbuilder that you didn't even get into on this. Some of my favorite functionality involves being able to tap a skill and see you're available actions for that skill, or adding conditions to modify all of the relevant stats of your character. Those are super helpful to be able to use real time as you are playing.
I'll save you all twenty minutes. Yes.
Came to say same
Yes it's worth it or yes it's overhyped?
@@philllllllll Yes it really is the best character builder for 2e, at least the mobile version is. And considering it is free to use 90% of its features (putting animal companions and custom items behind a modest 2.99 paywall) I'd say well worth it.
@@mattyb9991 I agree. I showed it to my players and they ALL bought the full version without me prompting and they all use it instead of a paper sheet at the table whenever we play. It is beyond ridiculously helpful. You can even adjust HP and conditions!
@@philllllllll I have the exact same story, as I'm beginning to suspect many of us do. It was essential in giving me the confidence to even try and GM, and doubly so for my (new to TTRPG) friends in getting over over the initial bump-in-the-road character creation presents and helped indirectly lead to what is now a weekly game and avid hobby of ours!
I know nonat is a big fan of mobile. Just thought to add that i've giving my players who never played pathfinder, and they quickly understood how to navigate everything.
I definitely agree on the scrolling problem for the web app. It's a lot more intuitive as a mobile app and feels extremely fluid to use there. The web app was kind of like a direct port over trying to make it "feel" as close to the mobile version as possible which doesn't really translate well on a web app. Given time though I do hope the web app is going to get some major improvements. One of the things that keeps me coming back to Pathbuilder is that Redrazors, the dev who made it is extremely communicative on the PF2e Reddit and does a great job about addressing bugs and other things whenever they're found. Content is also added within days of a new book dropping too which is really nice.
The "block of text" criticism is also my opinion for the descriptions in the video games Pathfinder Kingmaker and Wrath of the Righteous (beta). My "user friendly'" mentality (I was a webmaster) wants short, separated and bold or colorized effects or keywords. That said, for this online tool, maybe they plan to do that later, as it is a huge job just inserting the core original text and functions.
i (and many others in our server) use pathbuilder for a few reasons
1. we don't use it as a character sheet, strickly a character builder, so most of the compaints don't apply to our use (gear and navigating to different values)
2. ease of exporting, be it manual (we used to go to other tabs for weapon, armor, and saving throws proficiencies but not since they added classes to foundry's PF2e which automates them) or automatic (6 digit/letter code to use in foundry, though if you didn't buy the premium you can share the character and have someone else export it)
3. ease of use, make the character in a single list and choices can be changed easily if desired, you also don't need to go through a few pages to create a character. if i can't export it (web version for example) i would just look at the level plan list and skills tab
I just use my FoundryVTT character sheet now xD
Pathbuilder has a Foundry import function. :D
@@TheMalignantMind oh trust me. I know.
I personally think the browser builder is better suited for those gms that want to track everyones character for honesty sake. Your biggest complaint was all the scrolling you were doing, which can be bothersome, you can also click the window for weapons or spells again to close the menu and minimize scrolling. But as you said it is a character planner and that is its strongest asset
I also prefer wayfinder over pathbuilder. I don't like using phones at the table. But my biggest gripe about pathbuilder is that they don't have the rights to use any of Paizo's Golarion specific terms for many of the feats and spells in the system. Like the Pathfinder Agent Archetype is called 'Guildmember' in Pathbuilder. My players LOOOOOOVE Pathbuilder, but they are always getting bad information from the program. It's gotten to where I have to constantly ask them to look on Nethys for a feat's real name so I know what they are talking about. Also there's a few feats that have Golarion specific ethnicity requirements....Pathbuilder doesn't mention that. One of my players was devastated she couldn't take like three different feats because she wanted to be Varisian, but the feat requirements stated you had to be Nidalese or Ekutani - and they knew I wasn't waiving those requirements. But Pathbuilder's lack of that kind of information meant she was planning ahead incorrectly.
Thankfully, looking on Nethys for that feat's real name and specific terminology is just one click of a button away! Which, if you're planning your character ahead of time (which this is obviously built for), you would easily have the time for. There is little-to-no 'bad information' in Pathbuilder - you just need to look a little deeper with things that are obviously generic-sounding requirements.
I didn't noticed for 1st few months, but in pathbulder, can use free archetype, duel class, incremental ability score increase, no lvl mod options. As well as custom additional feats & ability to include house rules. (Mostly)
I still believe Pathbuilder is the best. You really should try the mobile version, it's much more organized than the browser version.
I tried Wanderers Guide and I honestly found it pretty confusing haha
Agreed, Pathbuilder on mobile has the "planner" section as it's own tab, so it's a lot cleaner. They just have a lot more space on a computer screen
Which is weird that, with all that extra space, it's somehow more cluttered. If they had just done the tabs system in the browser version, I think it would've been better.
@@Nonat1s Yeah probably but I think they'll change that, specially after this video haha
@@Nonat1s the browser version is literally brand new as of like 2 months ago? The mobile app has been in development since the launch of Pathfinder 2e and he has worked over the last few months in converting the code to something else so that it could run on browsers as well.
Just finished doing that very recently and obviously hasn't optimized it for browsers yet.
That said, the mobile app is amazing.
@@Nonat1s It's still is beta and being based on the mobile app, it'll likely see better formatting over time. Plus, I personally enjoy planning out PCs, with room for edits later. It feels like Wanderer's not good for back and forth editing. But, I'm just happy that we have both options.
Pathbuilder makes making a character sooooooo easy for beginners. Pathfinder 2e is a pretty complex game, but this program especially the mobile version makes it so easy to get started.
Press Menue, then let you export your build as an PDF. Done, You have a normal charactersheet.
In the mobile, you can do anything to your pet or familiar, you can do everything with spells.... on a tablet, i can use everything, save it up and done, i dont need anything more. And you can always go to PRD
I like Pathbuilder to just whip up a new level 1 character. I don't know what all the backgrounds give me or what all the feats do. Now I just click on them and I can see what they do. It also allows me to easily set up my stats, which by hand is just a nightmare, IMHO. After that, I just copy it onto a (digital) character sheet and never use it again.
As you said, Wanderer's Guide is great for an actual character sheet, but I just want a quick character creation tool, and Pathbuilder is perfect for that.
I like this and Wanderer's Guide for different things. Pathbuilder for creating characters and leveling up, Wanderer's Guide for having all the info on one page. Though I think Pathbuilder is easier for customizing, which is necessary for some Pathfinder Society options.
I use a paper character sheet at the game table, but the mobile app is an excellent tool for playing with character concepts and seeing how choices affect the build at different levels. Great for exploring ideas before commiting to them at game time.
Tbh, I really don't think you gave Pathbuilder a fair chance at all. When doing Wanderer's you went in all excited and had googly eyes the entire time. Everything excited you. When EVERYONE mentioned Pathbuilder, you went in with an EXTREMELY hesitant/dismissive attitude, used an Alpha/Beta Build browser instead of checking the intended and native App, and everything that was "good" about wanderer, you kinda dismissed about Pathbuilder. The biggest thing was the "scrolling" issue. You were REALLY hung on that, but on the app, everything has its own tab. Need saves? Defense tab. Familiar? Pet tab. The other was the levelling. You like to build your level as you go. You know how much that slows down a table of 5 new players who have to do that? In Pathbuilder, "You gained a level. Click click, done. Let's Play." The browser will eventually get there. Just my opinion. You're entitled to your opinion. It just seems you went into it knowing you were not going to like it.
The mobile version starts you on the beginning window and shows you just the panel on the left to start so its not as overwhelming. When I first played we had one book but we all had our phones with us.
Mostly what I like about it is how it tells me what I get at each level, to make sure I don't forget 'oh I get an ancestry feat at this level' etc. I don't use path builder for the actual character sheet itself, but more to help me pick options as I level up to make sure I don't miss something
I've been using both since the first video you did on wanderers guide. I do have the full paid version of both. (meaning the mobile version of pathbuilder on my tablet)
I find builder more customizable so far and it wins with the export function hands down. My players can export character sheets, and I can export things as stat blocks. And I found that infinitely useful.
How.
Dare.
You!!?!
Nah, your criticisms are valid. Good points on all of them.
I still prefer Pathbuilder over Wanderer's Guide for a multitude of reasons. But I am the type of person who likes to have at least a loose plan for a character so that I can fit in everything I want to do.
For that reason, along with a host of others, Pathbuilder wins hands down for me.
Hero Labs Online is hands down the best character builder for Pathfinder 2e. The only issue is that it is expensive (especially if you are on your own or a new player). Now, if the new player has a DM that invested in HLO, they pay $1.25 per month and can even have that subscription gifted to them. I'm the perma GM for my group. They were all brand new to PF2e and PF/ DND in general. I had some of them test HLO vs PB2e vs WG and each of them picked HLO as their preferred tool. Bonus: The Gm can throw all the character on the "Stage" and have access to all of their sheets, updated in real time, for the game.
The mobile version is much better. I recommend just installing Bluestacks (the android emulator) and using the mobile version of Pathbuilder right on your computer. Also I'm fairly certain that when you have something like a natural attack or improved fist attack, there are unique versions of those in the weapons list.
Both builders are very good, but I like Pathbuilder more just because it's easy to test out character builds in my free time without having to boot up my computer
Pathbuilder has two great features that makes it fantastic: 1. is designed for mobile users, who can plan characters on the fly everywhere using the full extend of the ruleset (so you know instantly if you qualify for certain feats without check everything everytime), 2. you can search for stuff you probably even don't know exists at first but can be very cool for the character you are planning/playing (tho 1e search was much better).
You said Pathbuilder is intended to player who build characters 1-20 for min-max, but - at least in my experience - you can plan stuff you like and change it later in the campaign according to experience or flavour.
Last thing you are right: Pathbuilder is not a good character sheet, but i think paper or other custom solution are much better than everything on the internet.
I have dozens of characters created in Pathbuilder and have to say that it is so easy and quick. Of course I use the mobile version which is much more streamlined. The biggest thing about it in my opinion is how it checks your character and shows you if you made a mistake and even better, makes it harder to make one. I've had multiple cases of GMing and helping players plan their characters only to find that they took a feet they didn't qualify for on paper because they forgot that XYZ needed expert proficiency in skill ABC. It also really helped my new player understand character creation by breaking down each secions on their ability score choices and feat selection.
Another great feature is being able to share characters with anybody else and have it load in Pathbuilder. My whole group uses the app and then we just send the character to the GM via Pathbuilder which helps with things like secret rolls and building unique scenarios around character backgrounds.
Finally, I sometimes find it fun to make characters even if I may never play them. I've made Darth Vader, Dumbledore, Frodo, Captain Picard, and others through Pathbuilder just to see what they would look like in PF2e and this app is fantastic for that.
Pathbuilder 2e's mobile app is definitely a lot more intuitive just by virtue of being further along in development, and the layout was pretty clearly designed for mobile devices. What's great about it is how it clearly shows you what you qualify for, organizes available options by level and item level, links to the PRD page for each option for ease of access, and allows you to limit sourcebooks and availability for specific campaigns. So for instance, if you're running through Age of Ashes and your party just started Book 2, you can enable only Book 1 of the AP since you shouldn't have access to anything else at that time and could get spoiled otherwise. Niche details, I know, but I really appreciate having an app to design characters and stuff while I'm away from my computer.
Honestly I think the browser version is pretty bad atm. Hoping it’ll get better, and I am glad it exists, to help my players. Personally I will always prefer hero lab, but that price is wayyyy too high. So for the time being I’ll stick to manually making the foundry sheets.
You should check it out again sometime. It's improved a lot since this video and I greatly prefer the format to Wanderer's Guide
As a GM I use the paid version of Pathbuilder on my phone with the books to help my players create and level up their characters. I then convert to PDF and print. If the player wants to use their tablet I recommend them putting their sheet into Wanderer's Guide. Some people like the pen and paper and some prefer digital. Both are great and I use them both (but I also use Astral for the digital maps and World Anvil for the story so I like diversifying...)
If you use the phone app, you can export a pdf which you can print out, and it gives you a filled out character sheet *edit*
Didnt finish video when posting comment wasn't able to finish but still stands the printable pdf is awesome and also is amazing when it comes to spells
I would love to see you review the character tool in pf2.tools
Oh boy... that'd be a good video.
My group uses it in conjunction with Fantasy Grounds and it serves its purpose in keeping the players on track in the VTT.
Sorry for how long this comment is lol.. At the 8 minute mark, just wanted to answer some points that have come up. I personally adore pathbuilder, but on mobile. The web browser just released, and for now is kind of just a conversion. I agree with it being far less pleasing to the eye. The drop downs are all separate pages on mobile. The pet/familiar page is a paid page, as are some of the variant rule options. I have the paid version, which I believe was about 5 bucks. I'm hoping the web browser version improves a lot, because its only available on Android for mobile. Also, for the fist, you can actually choose from a list of unique unarmed attacks, but im not sure if that's on the web version yet or not. You can also create custom weapons. There are some things that are clunky with pathbuilder, but its overall design is great, the creator is very active in the reddit community, and he updates incredibly fast. Had the last ancestry guide updated into it within maybe 2 days? All in all, I love this app, but I definitely agree that the web browser version is pretty lack luster for now. I'm hoping that improves. Weather you make a video or not, I do suggest checking out the app, just so you can see what pathbuilder really is lol
Another reason me, and the rest of our party, have the paid version, is that you can build with dual class and free archetype, and thats what our party is lol. Having this available is great, since character sheets don't really have a good way to include those options
I love pathbuilder 2e. When I DMed Pathfinder 2e for the first time to my D&D 5e players they were amazed with the app. So cool to see what you gained in every level and easy to use.
Pathbuilder mobile > Wanderer's Guide >> Pathbuilder desktop imo
Is the desktop version that much worse than the mobile version right now?
@@Nonat1s The desktop version just got into beta like last month. The mobile version has been out for much longer and is way more developed at the moment
@@Nonat1s It simply misses additionial functions like free archetype and familiar/animal companion support etc. because....... well it is atm in the early access beta and is freshly released. In any other way it is almost completely like the mobile version. So i don't where @Will Swanson is coming from
@@Nonat1s Yep
@@Nonat1s Substantially worse, but only because it IS just a beta, it will improve with time. For now, the mobile version is far better optimised and stands in a league of it's own as far as being free, accessible, and intuitive to use.
My Background:
I use Herolab Online to keep the "official" versions of all my players' characters. They mostly use Pathbuilder to maintain their characters and send me the updates. I've also used Pathbuilder. I'd never heard of Wanderer's Guide until this video.
My group uses Pathbuilder because it works very well, can be used for free, and doesn't require any linking to any of their accounts.
My Experience:
I went to use Wanderer's Guide, and unlike Pathbuilder, it wanted me to log in with Reddit or Google. No other options. I can't just use it without registering or register with an email address.
*shrug*
Obviously, Wanderer's Guide not designed for me or my group.
I came here prepared to be mad. However, I use the mobile app and it's been 110% amazing for me.
I might check out the mobile app someday, but I just don't lke using my phone during the game.
@@Nonat1s Legit, I export to PDF and print my sheet off.
@@Nonat1s seriously, every single one of my players stopped using paper sheets altogether. The mobile app for Pathbuilder let's you adjust your HP, add or remove conditions, buffs and debuffs which affect your stats in real time. It's super easy to navigate and it's so good that ALL of my players (six of them) voluntarily paid for the app to unlock full features and just have their phone flat on the table and use that instead of a paper sheet.
I sound like a fanboy but that's because I am. The pathbuilder app is fucking incredible.
@@Nonat1s You really should, just to check it out, then uninstall it after giving it a look
yes the phone up is better than web browser... Pathbuilder is a good tool for DM since you can Export the npc as a stat block so is easier to manage than a full character sheet and that is something to take in considerations.
Nice Video...
on the App you got to pay 5 dolars (all that) to access to the free arquetipe and the pets-tabs... and there is no "playtest" content avaible on the app so that are points for wanderer guide (u$s 5 is no much unless you are in a 3rd world country like me and is really hard to pay dolars to buy anything)
Also Wanderer Guide is more like D&Dbeyond but free, you can pay for extra character slots (you dont need that on Pathbuilder) and you have access to Hombrew made by other Wanderer guide users...
TL;DR Both programs are good at what they are intended to do thus both programs ARE good!!! Some will like it some will NOT, there's NOTHING wrong with either or anyone who uses either program.
Wanderer's Guide is a GREAT character creator/sheet, which is it's purpose! Pathbuilder, as people have said, is a CHARACTER BUILDER, something that not everyone is going to want to do because they don't plan their characters. As someone who used to look at prestige classes to see what I can work INTO, I DO like having something that will store a PLAN so I have a guide to use for what I MIGHT want to take later, I will try to NEVER have things so it is set in stone because you never know what is goin to happen during a game that might change how you are playing, and thus how you are making, your character!
Pathbuilder is great, Hero Lab is way too expensive.
Hero Lab is great if you’re a permanent DM. There’s a super cheap subscription option for players that let’s you share content with them and house all of your information under the same campaign.
Appreciate you reviewing the browser version and explaining why you chose to review that version. Android version may be so much better but personally I dont like to use my phone during game so this is the version I would need to like.
Then give it a bit of time to further develop and come back to it later before writing it off. Its a brand new beta that doesn't even have all of the app features yet and wasn't planned to be made in the first place because the creator was more comfortable with Android programming.
Also, you can use an android emulator like Bluestacks in order to run the full-feature mobile app on a computer.
@@KingJulius4 :) and I haven't written it off. Many great comments in this thread that help add to an understanding of strengths, weaknesses. And potentials of the different programs! Doesn't change my appreciation for Nonat showing the current state of this choice and fostering this discussion.
Uh, you might want to try this again but with Pathbuilder 2e current version. It's ten times faster than Wanderer's Guide (no loading swirly, ever), ten times more compact, and has ten times the no-login-required. Actually, infinitely more "no login required".
I tried building a sheet in Wanderer's, and I had to bounce all over the place just to make a level 5 character (having to go back to redo stats because I messed up on stats and didn't qualify for Champion Dedication was incredibly cancerous). Plenty of crap was non-intuitive, and there's junk like skill assurance having to be typed in and not showing you current skill levels when being offered an upgrade and deity's favored weapon being an effing useless text field. How the heck do I add weapon training? Since it's not doing it automatically for the favored weapon, I have to put in a custom one..where?
PB2e might not be perfect, but it's better almost _universally_ than Wanderer's Guide. Almost everything bad in PB2e is in Wanderer's Guide, but ten times worse. Oh, and press 'restore' to put your armor back on.
You can use an Android Emulator like Nox to use Pathbuilder mobile app on your PC. It works great and is much better than the browser version (and the mobile version less frustrating for new players because of the better, less intimidating layout). The browser version is very very beta and underwhelming imo.
The problem I have with Wanderer's Guide is its very long loading times. Also, to be fair Wanderer's Guide has long chunks of text as well.
Nonetheless, thanks so much for covering these fantastic tools! Of course, everyone has their favorite way of creating characters :)
I have never heard of this one, or Wanderers Guide before your videos. Wanderers Guide crashed so often whenever I used it on 3 different browsers. Are we ever going to get a review of Hero Lab Online for Pathfinder 2E?
You had Wanderer's Guide crash? In what way? Like it took down your whole browser or something?
@@Nonat1s The website kept freezing and crashing during character creation, and then it lost whatever I was building.
@@Nonat1s Yeah, the main reason I haven't tried Wanderer's Guide is it loads forever on either Firefox or Chrome for me. That is, sometimes it will take literal minutes to load a screen; sometimes it'll just never load at all.
@@stephhanley3167 try Pathbuilder2 app for mobile. It's flawless.
@@philllllllll And it’s only available on Android.
I don't see how you can complain about scrolling (which can be minimized by collapsing tabs, as others have noted) when Wanderer's Guide forces you to scroll past the entire multi-paragraph description - that can't be collapsed - of the ancestry or class you want just to get to your next choice. Not to mention that it's multiple webpages that need clicking through.
Pathbuilder ain't perfect, but it definitely doesn't require more scrolling than Wanderer's Guide, and it's all on a single page.
Some things that would definitely help from a UI perspective in the online version: Tabs rather than expandable sections for offense/defense and the like. And brief descriptions of the runes would be nice... Like, show the portion of the description that fits in the window. Maybe it doesn't work perfectly, but it'd at least give you some idea on what feats/items did.
I really liked using Pathbuilder for a bit, but when I had to make a character (and also a character sheet) by hand for a different system, I felt a way deeper connection with my character because I was crafting every single detail of the character as opposed to just clicking some buttons and pretty much having it made for me.
I seriously connect to this comment. Even now, I still do most of my character building manually. It just feels like a more satisfying result when you read the book, studied your options, and flipped through the pages yourself to decide who you wanted this character to be. (At least to me)
Because on the mobile it's tabs (swipe left and right to move to a new page with that info )
Honestly for me, pathbuilder is a great tool for those "No computers at the table" style games. I know a lot of folks run with games, but a large (and seemingly growing) amount of tables want to run without computers as barriers between the players, and to help people stay focused on the game. Pathbuilder on your mobile device is a great way to find a compromise, because it provides all the information and tools you should need right there on your screen, without the large monitors in the way and without as much risk of getting lost in the infinite tab creation.
The iron fist I do know is glitched on the web. It works on the app. Just to point that out
I think you hit the nail on the head with the function of both programs.
Pathbuilder is the best to plan out your character while Wanderer's Guide is probably better to use in play.
Pathbuilder2E has added a lot of in-play functions compared to Pathbuilder1E, but it's still not ideal.
I agree with the aesthetic not being the best. I'd much rather have something that looks as slick as the FoundryVTT character sheet, but when I asked the dev, he said he intentionally kept it as minimalist as possible since it's designed for phones and adding more graphical stuff would make it not function as well as it does.
I really think if you were not reviewing the Android version, you may have well not done a review at all though. The main thing you disliked about this one (the scrolling) is not a thing in the mobile version and may not be a thing on the finished product.
You also hit the nail in the head about your expectations going in. I think your review of both products would have been entirely different had you checked Pathbuilder before WG. The things you got excited about while reviewing WG were extremely basic.
In any case, WG still seems like a great product, and I would probably use it over PB if I were playing in person with a laptop instead of a tablet and I didn't already have my sheet on FoundryVTT.
Thanks for the video :)
Pathbuilder is amazing! I have used the android version for years for PF1e and now PF2e. I think the issue is that NoNat didn’t spend enough time orienting himself to it before complaining about features that are there as other commenters noted. I do appreciate the review though.
I think the critique is fair. I would point out that you can still build a character level by level during the course of a campaign. You don't have to pre-build all of the levels.
The mobile version is far superior but in the end I always print the pdfs so that I get the original sheet and dont have to use their UI during the game, not really a problem.
Fair judgement of the BETA version (and you mentioned it few times, hats up to you).
To be honest I didn't even know what Browser version exist, I use App and I like it.
"there may be other, better, but this is mine" :)
Well the majority of us recognise that Pathbuilder 2 (mobile version) is the best electronic character sheet available. It's even better than the paper character sheet from the Corebook. Easy to locate what you need by swiping screens.
84 seconds in, so I have yet to see the full video.
BlueStacks is something that allows you to run Android applications on your desktop computer. Considering that the Pathbuilder 2E application is over a year old, while the web version of Pathbuilder is less than 3 months old, it'll be interesting to see what the differences are. (Purchased the Pathbuilder 2E version on Android, myself.)
10 minutes in. NoNat, you expanded every subsection. If you had them all collapsed, you could've easily found Defense, then opened it to see your saving throws. Just an FYI.
14 minutes in. So, I have a level 8 Monk in Pathbuilder 2E that just hit level 9. So, I add another level, then select the level 9 feats. With Pathbuilder 2E already purchased, I can export a Foundry VTT code to import that directly into Foundry. Or, generate a PDF. Or a Statblock. So, yes, you can level-by-level select as the character advances...
Pathbuilder 2E actually exports a six-digit JSON code. Which, with the proper module active in Foundry, you directly import. (I have done this for several months at this point, and my Pathbuilder 2E User ID code has remained constant during that time, regardless of the character I am exporting. So, there's some internet going on there...)
To be honest about your overall review:
1) I think that, should you have reviewed Pathbuilder 2E before Wanderer's Guide, you may not have been as harsh on Pathbuilder 2E as you have been,.
2) If you used BlueStacks (or Nox? Another commenter said something about that), you would've had the side-by-side swipe.
3) I think that, as all 20 levels are showing, you believe this strictly to be a "Make it and then run with the script" as opposed to the level by level guide it could be (something you knocked).
4) Honestly, with as many people who have fallen in love with Pathbuilder 2E (myself included), I feel the overall review was a little bit of a bash on a tool that hundreds of people use, simply because as you were going through you didn't see the possibilities that Pathbuilder 2E brings to the table.
12:10 Dude, you litearlly read "restore" 5s earlier. What do you think that could mean ?
I do want to note that, while the digital character sheet seems pretty cumbersome, the printed sheet is pretty much a normal 2e Character sheet. It does have the ability to print the notes on pretty much everything, which can create a small book, but that does allow new players to know exactly what their abilities do.
That being said, I'm not sure this would be as useful as onboard character creators in Virtual tabletops. Live games are great, but online ones probably would find this app less useful.
One thing I kind of hold against Wanderer's huide over Pathbuilder is the need for an account. Maybe after the beta it'll be necessary for Pathbuilder too (i mean for the paid version it'll obviously be) but I don't like having to use a separate account for every little thing.
Though I must that it does look good.
Wanderer's is fine for beginners, but if you RP a lot of Pathfinder I think Pathbuilder is better in the long run. If you decide to pay for either of these products, Pathbuilder gives you more for the money since it is a one time payment versus Wanderer's subscription based model.
I can see how Wanderer guiding a new player through creation is enticing, but I got sick of clicking back and forth through multiple pages to create and tweak my character as I explored various options when I first tried it. Especially since at that time, it only provides the basic info you need for the page you are on so you couldn't see the wider effects any changes you made had. Pathbuilder presents it all on one page which to me seems the better choice for players who have done character generation before and may not need the handholding that Wanderer's provides while still presenting the details needed to make the proper choices.
Wanderer's is great for the new or very casual RPer who will only have up to 6 characters in play, or being designed, at a time. If you find yourself more involved with RP than that, you likely would do better with a different choice. For those who want assistance in character creation and prefer to get the most value for the cost, I think Pathbuilder is a great option.
I think it’s strength is the clarity it gives on Leveling up. In wanderer’s guide leveling up can feel a bit confusing. I can sometimes skip a step because I missed a tab. So it’s very clear here what you get during your level up. However i spend ten times more time playing the character so having a better interactive character sheet is more important to me. So I have to give Wanderer’s guide the win. I’m eager to see new programs come out or updates that make the best of both.
I just used Wanderer's Guide, and yes, Pathbuilder is by far the best.
I found it really hard to create a character, it loaded a lot (I don't know why but I had to refresh the page twice to make it work). By the end, you end up with a nice character sheet, but I use Pathbuilder to BUILD my character... after that, I export it to Foundry or print the pdf.
Nonat's points are also valid, and I hope they improve the system in the next version. Btw, the mobile version is the best.
I'll say what I said in the last video: Pathbuilder is the superior phone app, Wanderers is the better desktop. Pathbuilders functionality is perfect for the phone, and ATM the desktop version is a desktop version of the app not so much a standalone, which mean functions that work great on the phone might not be ideal for desktop. Wanders by comparison has a super sexy desktop layout. If Quzzar and Redrazor would team up (and honestly Paizo should contract them and give them access to licensed assets) they could make the perfect cross-platform character builder for 2E.
I hope you give Pathbuilder a second shot when it goes to alpha too
My one problem with Pathbuilder is, as a newbie, it doesn't tell me how many spells I know in my spellbook. It get really hard on later levels to know this kind of information
Some of my favorite features of the mobile version is being able to import directly into foundry and being able to send/receive other pathbuilder builds directly to my phone. Helps when my players need me to look over stuff.
But yeah, comparing pathbuilder web without all of the features will put a big dent on opinion.
I'd use Bluestacks with the mobile version if I really wanted to use PC over mobile device. Web version has been out for such a short period of time, it's honestly not what people were talking about in the Wayfinder comments.
I've used a Wayfinder few times since it came out and the layout is simply not as good for building a character out. As an example, while you didn't like taking your Ancestry feat after your Class feat, you don't have to. You can skip over it, go to the next, and complete them in any order you like. It will remain red and show you what needs to be completed. Compared to Wayfinder where it's all on different pages and much more fiddly if you want to build in a different order than how they want you to.
Also, export to a character sheet if you want a character sheet. I disliked everytime you referred to the builder like it was a character sheet.
As a brand new player I liked pathbuilder bc I could read everything all in one place rather than the tons of books pathfinder has. I feel like I'm missing out if I can't see all my options or something that would fit better.
Just started mucking about with the web version recently, and it looks like there have been some advancements since this video, I love the mobile version so I can noodle around without scratching out or erasing stuff.
I don't think you realize how big of a deal it is to not use the app. The browser is very very new. The experience using the app and the browser are worlds apart. I recommend a second review of the actual app as that is what people would swear by.
The contrast between this "impressions" and the wandered guide are stark. The first minutes of OMG it has ____! Are all things Pathbuilder has and did long ago.
It feels like either this was an obligated response after a sponsored video, or Nonat is way too affected by exposure novelty.
I'm leaning towards the former.
Nonat, you would have a vastly different experience if you used the Mobile version. I've used it since release, and didn't even know about/pay attention to a browser version. I totally understand that as a streamer it's hard to use/review a mobile platform app. However, you can use an emulator like Bluestacks to run the app and can see the difference.
Congratulations though. I believe this is your most heavily commented video.