Fixing the Engine of a 102-Year-Old Classic Boat!
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- Опубліковано 26 сер 2024
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This winter, I worked to repair the air start manifold on my 1939 Gardner 6L3 Marine Diesel Engine. Over the course of my summer cruise, I experienced repeated failures of several of the gaskets on the air start system, as well as repeated seizing up of the intake valves due to scratched valves that lead to the leaking of exhaust gases, causing the valves to seize up. I was able to pull the valves and clean them, as well as replace gaskets with oiled cardboard, but both solutions kept failing. In this video, I go over how I was able to finally fix the problems properly by replacing the gaskets with proper gasket material, and then lapping the valves into their valve seats.
Steps for the start sequence:
1. Turn on gauges and voltage regulator
2. Turn on diesel fuel cutoff to the engine
3. Set the governor switch
4. Set the throttle to a start idle
5. Set the transmission to neutral
6. Turn on the shaft oilers, check the drip rate
7. Turn on the air system (large valve at the air battery tank)
8. Decompress each of the six cylinders
9. Line up the engine flywheel to top dead center on one of the aft 3 cylinders (called "barring" the engine, indicated by tick marks on the flywheel)
10. Compress the aft three "start" cylinders
11. Open the air start manifold valve, which pressurizes the air start system
12. Open the engine start valve lever, which allows air to pass into the start manifold and aft three cylinders to build momentum in the flywheel
13. Compress each of the forward three cylinders (in sequence with the rotation of the flywheel)
14. Shut off air manifold valve
15. Turn on engine alarms (low oil pressure)
16. Open the air start manifold pressure release valve
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Hi, England calling. I've been working on Gardners for over 30yrs (4L2, 4LW, 2LW and 6LXB). Something you may not be aware of is these engines run a very low Combustion Temperature under real operating conditions. A suggestion would be to use a antiseize compound on the Air starter valves and I would heavily reccommend annually chechecking the Exhaust Ports for build up of what is basically a coke build up. They will run forever but they do get choked up.
All my engines we have run with a Slick 50 additive, it help a lot
Beautiful Boat
Very best Peter
Hi Peter,
It's wonderful to hear from someone who has such experience on Gardners--they are hard to come by and this is the first engine I've really ever owned...it's been a fun learning experience. What oil do you typically recommend for this engine? The prior owners switched to Delo SAE 15W-40 so I've been continuing with that. I will add a Slick 50 additive for my next oil change this Spring.
I have a couple of Gardner questions, would you be willing to connect if I reach out? Thanks for leaving your comment!
Hi Peter, l would look at electric starters, if possible, Carl ex Gardner fitter.
@@MV_Argonaut is there.
an email address I can make contact ?
BR Peter
I drove an ERF truck in the 80’s had the 8 pot Gardner 240 hp,two pots were outside the cab in the weather it was that long.Drove a lot of 6 pot Gardeners too.There are still loads of 2pot Gardeners powering narrow boats on the English canal’s definitely the best sounding boat engine.
I am in Tasmania(Australia), there are still three Gardner equipped wooden cray fishing boats down here but only one is still used commercially. I am a refrigeration mechanic but often got collared to repair lines and anything mechanical on the boat at the same time. Love the Gardners, One family still has their families original wooden gardner equipped cray boat and an array of spares in storage but it's only kept for recreational use, they are well off enough to afford the slippage and maintenance needed to keep a wooden boat floating. Most Gardeners down here were converted to Electric start in the 1990's. Love your work.
Incredibly efficient way of turning fuel oil into noise. These mid 20th century Diesel engines are examples of very well designed and built machinery that, with careful maintenance, will run forever.
And... they were engineered and built by people who didn't have computers. Just imagination and a slide rule...F##king Amazing....
@@tomcampbell6363slide rules are computers!
@@tomcampbell6363it is amazing, the thought that went into these.
Detroits convert fuel into noise not Gardener engines
Old boats, old diesels, young guys keeping the craft alive.
Subscribed
Thank you, Robert! Appreciate that!!
I’m a 19 year Journeyman Diesel Mechanic.
Nice work keeping her running. I haven’t worked on Gardner diesels but I’ll say this.
If you keep having trouble with those valves then take them to an automotive machine shop. They can touch up those valve faces in a valve grinder. The valve seats are small so they may have trouble there. But if the steel face is cleaned up then it’ll lap in much better. Similar to the main valve.
Also, something you probably want to stock in you boat is a few different thicknesses and types of gasket paper. Available at most auto parts stores.
Hi Jeremy, thanks for reaching out! This is all great advice, and is exactly what I did. They have been working great since.
@@MV_Argonaut I saw your channel from a quiet famous wooden sailing vessel’s channel. So far I like your content as well.
I live in the south sound on Anderson Island. If you’re ever in Oro Bay please reach out.
@@MV_Argonaut It may be that you address this later in the vid (I didn't wait to the end because I'd forget to post!) but to clear up a common misconception: when lapping, it is the HARDER metal which get's the lion's share of any resulting abrasion (and hence, change of surface geometry). This is because because the lapping compound tends to embed in, and thus remain stationary relative to, the softer metal of the pair.
When I resort to valve lapping compound in an internal combustion engine to improve the valve seat geometry, I turn (on a precision lathe) a soft steel collar to a close fit on a valve stem with a correctly angled chamfer, and charge that chamfer with lapping compound, because otherwise the cutting action is very slow indeed, and tends to happen more on the valve than the seat.
You might want get a bronze wire brush since steel wire wheels will likely leave scratches in softer metals.
Thanks, and you are right. I ended up picking some up to clean the insides of the valves. Appreciate the tip, this has been a lot of fun learning.
@@MV_ArgonautAlso put your drill in the vice and use velcro or twine to lock the trigger on and you will have two free hands to hold whatever you are brushing. Works great!
I said it before, I've had many gardners in various boats , they were, (are ) the greatest marine motor ever made , such a shame they are no longer made, cheers from Tasmania
I once repaired an inboard boat engine but couldn't get hold of the original cylinder top gasket.
An old mechanic gave me a sheet of gasket material for steam equipment/engines and it worked like a charm as a cylinder top gasket. -Try this gasket material for your compressed air system as it can cope with both high temps and pressures.
Agreed - cardboard is a temporary fix in an emergency situation but there is no substitute for genuine gasket material.
Theres industrial plant gasket suppliers they supply sheets of materials .. same goes for pipeline suppliers..
Copper gaskets are just sheet copper of the right thickness but that has been anealed usually.
One of the most incredible diesel engines ever produced in the UK! Never worked on a marine version, but many truck and bus engines when I was a heavy vehicle mechanic. SO reliable!
Thanks, Peter! Yes it’s been fun to learn about it!
@@MV_Argonaut From the days when Britain was really GREAT Britain! I started my apprenticeship (it was 5 years then) in 1969! I was fresh out of school at 15yo! 😊
When you dropped the sump the con rods etc had a thin film on them, not like the mess in todays engines
@@johnrose7491 Aye, tough as old boots and so reliable. I loved starting them (in trucks) on a cold Highland morning, no throttle, just straight into tickover. I watched the perfect smoke rings head skywards with wonderment and delight! If it was seriously cold, a rag wrapped around a welding rod, soaked in a little methylated spirits, lit and held at the intake manifold, not too close! A bit of warm air was usually enough to get them going. When Scania-Vabis and Volvo started to come into the UK, the comfort, quiet cabs and powerful engines the old boys just got parked up or turned into recovery trucks. Great memories! Thanks for that! 😊
Gardner music. No finer sound anywhere in the 4 stroke diesel world. Simply the best. Lovely.
Thank you, I agree!
Love seeing old bits of kit being kept alive and running instead of being discarded for a cheap nasty replacement!. Good on you!. Nuff said. 🙂
Thanks!
I served my time on them. Best engine ever made.
I enjoy watching Joe McCool's channel about these engines. A real expert.
I'm sure he would give you good advice and possibly supply the correct parts.
Thanks! I’m going to check that out, I appreciate it
Beautiful boat ya have. Looking at that rust on the air tank and at 220psi I would look at that very carefully. Wouldn't want that to come apart as I would become a bomb. Good luck.
Hi, thank you! Yes I’m a bit concerned about the air tank not knowing what I don’t know, and it’s in a very difficult location to service. Do you know how I might go about inspecting it / anyone that you may know of in the Pacific Northwest?
@MV_Argonaut OH boy, im on the east coast and don't know how or who. If that was mine I would replace it if you have any concerns. Tanks aren't that expensive. Maybe $200. Good luck.
Yeah i think you should definitely get that tested or replaced. I believe hydro tests are one way of checking the integrity, where the tank is filled with up 98% with water which is non compressible rather than air, then a small amount of air can rapidly bring the tank to and past the operating pressure to a safety margin. If the tank does fail then you get a water leak and not a massive metal grenade if it was all air. Corrosion should be inspected for internally etc.
Or you could move to an electric starter system for safety and convenience. Awesome boat either way 👌
@@MV_Argonaut Look for a 'pressure vessel inspection' link on google.. These people check things like large boilers and other vessels. You want someone to check if that is just surface rust or something worse. If it is OK, you would ned to strip it and repaint it. If there are any steam-driven boats nearby, they would have regular pressure vessel inspections, I would imagine.
When lapping in valves manually, it’s best to hold the valve seat stationery in a vice and to spin the valve clockwise and clockwise using the screwdriver as you would a fire stick - so lightly gripped between the palms of both hands. When you think that you are done, use Prussian Blue, applied evenly and thinly around the valve face and pressed it into the matched seat to check the consistency of the face contact the two parts make. You may need to repeat the process to get perfectly mating surfaces.
Hi Michael, I appreciate this tip, I haven’t heard of Prussian Blue but the concept makes good sense. I will certainly use a vice next time. The valves all appear to be forming a nice seal at the moment
Came for the interesting video about an awesome boat, stayed for the incredibly soothing voice of Nick. Am I the only one that could listen to him talk about boat maintenance all day?
lol thanks for the support. Gotta get you aboard for a guest appearance!
Hi,I am a retired marine engineer and I have worked on Gardner diesel engines including complete strip down and rebuild.To me they represent longevity and reliability of service,but
I have never come across an air start type,live and learn.
Thank you for a very informative and interesting article.Cheers,Roly🇬🇧.
Hi Roly! Thank you for reaching out, I appreciate your comment. I hope to put up lots more content about the engine and the boat itself. Subscribe to the channel, I hope to create some more videos in the coming weeks! Thank you!
That idle hunt noise is so familiar from my childhood and the leyland double decker buses we had here.....
What a fabulously elegant, classic engine!
Subbing from the UK. Beautiful boat, or should I say, yacht. It was the brief video of the boat itself that caught my attention, then the engine and your practical maintenance. More of the boat's history and what it does nowadays, would be appreciated. As another commenter said, first impression is that this 'is going to be an interesting channel'. Thanks.
Thanks John, I appreciate that! I have lots of ideas for history, there is so much of it. More to come!
Fantastic video, thanks for bringing us along. One quick suggestion... when the music comes on during the video, it comes on very loud. Then at around 7:20 or so, the narration volume is very low. A quick "volume normalization" pass during editing will make jump scares and hard to hear sections of your videos a thing of the past.
What a lovely boat. I'm insanely jealous. Thumbs and subs.
Haha ahh I am sorry for the jump scare. Still trying to learn how to make edits, and I’ll learn the volume normalization feature for next video. It’s kind of you to share that feedback.
Should be annealing those copper gaskets prior to reusing them.
Gardner engines are the best England has ever produced. A lot of manufacturers use gaskets to compensate for minor defects. Gardiner does not use a lot of gaskets as the machining is impeccable. Please get that air receiver for the compressed air professionally inspected as it looks a bit "iffy" it looks worse than the other one I saw this afternoon. PLEASE.
Hi Stephen - yes, I am very concerned about the tank and have been calling around dozens of places that work with pressure vessels but won’t come to the boat. Unfortunately replacing it is going to be a massive project given its location between my fuel tanks, expansion tank, and tucked behind my fuel, cooling, and heating systems. It’s high on my list, I just don’t have the means to do so at the moment.
Incredible - I love the simplicity of an old diesel.
Nick, Just discovered the channel! Absolutely love the content. I would recommend more of a InTooDeep style to build your followers, just walk around and film everything! I see this channel blowing up with constant content!
Thank you for the feedback, I appreciate that!
Nice work! Engines will run for as long as someone is willing to care for them.
I hope so!
Best engines in the world 😁😁🤘🤘
One of mate there a couple of gooduns
in my youth I was with my grandpa (born 1912) when he serviced large single bore semi diesels - hot bulb - and other diesels started with an air tank. This was in the 70s when the old school fishing fleet mostly destined for de-comissioning. Its a joy to see vintage Gardner's at work but more so that people like @MV_argonaut preserving these vintage engines
Thank you! It’s fun to see it still running so well.
Hey buddy - great video!
I can’t wait to see more of your boat and more of it’s power plant!!
Thanks! More to come!
Parts stores can order reinforced metal backed gasket making paper
Great work. Working on a veteran railroad, much is familiar. Keep on the good work!
Loved it it’s an art to starting these engines,glad I saw it,some these will last for ever?well I think so,I have worked on Gardner generators,hand crank,decompression chambers,they chugged all day.
This man Nick , is quite resourceful!!! I like how he is so familiar with this engine... The soot build-up on the starter compression access poppet valves is caused by the leakage of the combustion gas blowing by the valve seats & faces... The use of the assembly lube on the valve guides is a good idea... Maybe a skilled machinist could help to fit those valve faces &seats a little better... Maybe some high-temp gasket material, could seal those start valve perch's a little better to the head... Keep her sailing Nick!!!
That start at 1:46 made me smile. Thanks for that!
85 years ago, this is how engines were built based on experience from decades earlier. Fascinating. ❤❤❤
You may want to try VW bug exhaust gaskets for the heat riser pipe. They might be the same size.
Thanks for the tip! I actually was able to have some soft metal gaskets made by a local gasket making company (Gardico), and they have been working well!
Mia yelled “woah” when the engine fired!
haha I love that! Gotta get her out here next!
Gardner Diesel Engines 👍
Originally manufactured in Manchester UK.
Several independent guys work on Gardners
I know there is a Gardner Agent in Canterbury, Kent, Uk
Iv worked on Gardner Engines though in no Gardner Engineer,
Incredibly Engineered Engine Go Forever.
The ones iv worked on the Engineering was incredible hardly any gaskets mainly O Rings.
Good luck 🍀I’m sure it will go on & on 🍀
What a sweet sound!
Hi, yes happy to help. 15/40 is a good all round oil. Many Gardner specialist reccomment a 30weight oil, but these days I feel a 15/40 is a good way forward. If I can help ask away..
br Peter
Love your video! So cool to see your boat and engine!!! Awesome work, and thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
You should make sum copper,brass gaskets out of shim thickness sheet,no leaks then
Yes, that was my original plan! But I consulted a local gasket making company who services all the commercial boats here in Seattle (Gardico) and this is what they recommended. They have been working great so far!
I worked for many years on air start boats (DMQ 8 Enterprise engines) and I'd like to recommend that you actually do that valve job again and take the valves to a machine shop and have them, either cut correctly or have new ones made and I couldn't tell from the vid, but are the seats bronze or brass? Have them cut correctly. Maybe one of the you tube machine shop channels will help you out there. When I worked for one of those companies, there was a port engineer who had a small plack on his desk that said, "Why is there never time to do the job right the first time but always time to do it over again. It's nice old boat and I'm sure that engine room keeps you busy and I'm sure it's not cheap to keep it running, but there are certain jobs that are worth doing as well as you can. Just my two cents.
Hi @musoangelo - that is good advice and I take it to heart, especially when working on a critical part/fix. I did take the valves to a machinist up in Port Townsend, who helped me out with this project and services all the old wooden boats that come through the yard. I had particular trouble with the start valve (the one with the spring and the sheath), and he gave me a lot of advice on this repair. It's always a learning effort, and I am trying my best to do right for the boat with what I can afford. I look forward to showing some of the other, much bigger projects that I've been doing these past few years.
@@MV_Argonaut I wish you the best of luck. The air start system you have is different that what I was working with. Those old Enterprise engines were direct reversing and were used in Miki class tugs and WW2 era YTB navy tugs. There is nothing faster in shifting and watching all that mass stop and reverse direction in a second or so was amazing. There was one day when I was working when one of those air start valve hung open and the engine firing was directed into the air start line and with the oil in those lines, well it blew three air tank valves apart. I'm talking about good sized valves with 6 1/2" bolts holding the valve bonnets on. One of the valve discs was shot across the engine room and damaged a railing by the aft generator and it didn't loose 6" of altitude on the way across.
If I understand what I'm looking at, your air start system just turns the engine over with all the compression releases open and then on the 3 cylinders that are not being given air, you close the compression releases on them, and as they fire, you shut off the air to the final three cyl and you have a gearbox to switch between fwd and astern.
I'm glad there are people like you keeping these old vessels running. Good luck.
Yes, the valves' mating surfaces looked rather poor. Most automotive valve grinders should be able to resurface them. Failing that, mounting the valve in a lathe and attaching a small Dremel or grinder to the carriage might also do the trick.
If there are any trade schools near PT, the machine shops will often take in unusual jobs to train the students, and they might not charge anything.
Thanks! I'm getting more and more interested in old engines (this is the first diesel engine I've owned). You are correct on the air start, I only need it for about ~15 seconds to put momentum into the flywheel enough to compress the forward three cylinders. Once those are running, the air shuts off and valves (hopefully) stay shut as the motor runs independent of the air system. I have the original Gardner manual, and it actually has instructions to shut down one of the cylinders by cutting off the fuel, which you can do individually with each injector, and then utilize that cylinder to backfill air back into the system up to 265 psi which is wild. At some point in its history, there is an auxiliary compressor installed with a belt to the engine that constantly pushes air back into the system until it blows a pressure relief valve, which I set to 230 psi. I have a redundant compressor attached to my gen set in case I run out of air while attempting to start the engine.
@@MV_Argonaut There were a lot of very interesting axillaries on old boats. The Miki class tugs, which were built in ww2 were wooden hull, which absorbed a lot of vibration and I was told that at least some of them had shaft generators, so when you went to sea, you could secure the diesel generator and they were very quiet. Of course, those boats that did ship assist were a bit loose and they would run the fire pump for some hours in the days before, so the wood would swell and they'd be tighter, but I'm told that the foscle was rather wet.
On the Gardner engines, one of my capt friends was good friends with the actor Sterling Hayden back in the day and Sterling owned a canal barge in France that was fitted with a Gardner and Harold spoke highly of it. The barge is now named La Vie en Rose and is a small hotel barge. Not sure if it still has the Gardner in it, but it was a cool story.
On the cylinder that you shut off the fuel to, to use as an air compressor, and then pumps up the air flasks, I'm wondering if there is some kind of unloader that should stop pumping before opening the relief valves on the air tanks. That doesn't sound quite right, but I'm not there and I don't know. Be careful, 265 p.s.i. is a lot of pressure and could do damage if it's not going where it was designed to go. Have fun, be safe.
The slot head om the valve is a great help in laping.
I assume you were "barring" over the engine to get it to the correct rotational position to use the air starter. If so, it would be a good idea to mention that in your otherwise excellant narration. Nice video. I learned something new and even though I will never put that information to good use, it was nice seeing you do it. Great to see old technology preserved. Thanks.
That is correct, thanks! I owe a video to the whole engine, it is a really cool piece of vintage machinery
Nick,
So glad to be following you.
Awesome old boat you have.
Thank you.
I can only thank Leo aboard Tally Ho for this!
Fascinating video!
Thanks!
replace filters on your air tank// so you have clean air at all times . no water //drain off water from tank every day .
Thank you! I just ordered a replacement filter. One thing I am concerned about / don’t know how concerned to be is what the condition of the air tank is. Not too much water coming out of the tank, but lots comes out of the filter (downstream of the compressors) and the start valve as well.
Can you access a drain valve on the bottom of the tank?
Drain all the water from there first.
If you then unscrew that valve maybe you can insert a fibre optic inspection camera lens in and examine the depth of the rust at the bottom of the tank???
You can insert a modern air/water separator into the line after the tank to take out the water....
which is caused when the heated compressed air which is saturated with water vapour when in the tank
expands when going down the lines from the tank...
loses heat from this expansion..
cools and the water vapour condenses out inside those pipes.......
@@MV_Argonaut
The Gardner engine, one of the best diesels ever build, loved by the haulage bosses, for the reliability, fuel economy, and longevity , disliked by the drivers for the plodding, noisy and slow performance 180 hp, compared to the same horse powered Cummins engines that reved higher so went quicker. Then along came the Volvo, Scania, and the European marques...the Gardner first, then the Cummins in the U.K. were consigned to the history books. The Gardners simple basic design, over engineered, beautifully made and assembled ,whether in lorries, boats, or static machines and a thousand other applications will no doubt be with us forever, well, untill the fuel supply runs out I guess...
It will never run out of fuels.
These low compression slow revving old diesels will run on what Rudolf Diesel designed them to run on anywhere in the world...
the home grown oils from plants...soy bean oil, peanut oil, olive oil, coconut oil, palm tree oil, etc....
The only reason diesel engines now run on distillate diesel was that the oil companies were trying to find some way to use up the waste from catalytic cracking of oil to produce useful gasoline/petrol...
that waste (diesel) just so happened to fuel the diesel engine very well...
so the oil companies sold it as a cheap powerful fuel.....
Hello there Nick, Greetings from Christchurch, New Zealand .... I just Love the Sound of those Older GARDINER Engines..... Has to be the 'Best of British' Engines Ever built .... They very seldom will breakdown, Very Heavy and Super Solidly built. Best to You and Yours .... I have been following Leo from the day that he actually bought Tally Ho .... :-) :-) :-) Now added You to the Mix too .... :-) :-) :-) Cheers .... Keep well and Stay Safe....
Thanks and welcome aboard!!
Old sea charts can be used as gasket. Just a tip😊
Hah! Good to know!
The really old charts are fibre reinforced...
like the old wall maps at school in the 1960's....
@@MV_Argonaut
Subbed, looks like this is going to be an interesting channel. Thanks for sharing!
Welcome aboard!
Had an old trawler running a 5L3 with 12 volt electric start .
With the decompression levers open it was extremely easy to start even with flat batteries.
Knowing Gardiners are modular it might be worth looking for the pieces to convert over.
That sounds so much like mine did but without the odd five cylinder cadence.
Others have mentioned your air tank is suspect due to rust. 200psi is a lot of force over the entire area of a tank .
You do not want that failing when you are in the engine room it would be messy and probably fatal.
I would have it Hydro tested and repainted before using it further.
6L3 ...
Bore and stroke 5½ “ x 7¾” or 139.7mm x 196.85mm
1,105 ci 18.103litres.
Rated for 114 hp @ 900rpm continues heavy duty. Good for over 25,000hours between rebuilds.
Hi Martin - the air tank is something that does concern me, and has been on my mind since purchasing the boat. Do you know anyone in the PNW / Seattle area that may be able to help me perform a professional inspection? Unfortunately the tank is located in an awfully difficult area to service, which is another concern. I hope to make this a priority this year. Thank you for your comment!
@@MV_Argonaut
I would love to help
My home in NZ is to far away
You could try asking at local dive stores to see were they hydro test air bottles.
Wonderful engines. I crossed the Pacific on a Whitbread era maxi (Round the world race) yacht which had a Gardner 6LXB - awesome engine (as used, I believe, on the original red double decker London bus fleet), which among other things (I was told) could run upside down at a pinch. And like all diesels of that era, could run under water. When the oil was changed it was always still transparent, and gold in colour.
And ..... it was electric rather than air start, but they had rigged it for hand starting in case of electrical outages!
They brought down one of the cranks from the coffee-grinder primary winch drives, and after dismantling a few panels in the galley, four big guys from the race crew could kneel down there and get her spinning with all cylinders decompressed.
Then someone would flip off the decompressor for one cylinder and they'd keep grinding like heck until that cylinder warmed a bit, same again with second cylinder, and by the time three cylinders were running they could ease off and it would pick up.
It swung a Max-prop (feathering 3 blader), 1m in diameter.
Dude. I am enamored by this video!!!! Well done, and beautiful boat!
Haha thanks, Hudson. I look forward to checking out some of your own content!
Try using felpro gasket maker sheets. It's a roll of paper gasket. Holds up well in automotive applications
Thanks!
Awesome old engine!
It sure is!
Please get that air tank inspected if it is original as you could be sitting working and sleeping next to a ticking time bomb
Hi Robert, yes, I am very worried about the tank. Do you know anyone in the Seattle/PNW that is familiar, or where I would go to have the tank professionally inspected? This has been on my mind since purchasing the boat.
Fire King does hydrostatic testing for fire extinguishers…might be a lead, but they’re typically lower pressure….unless they also test like FM200 systems.
What’s the system max pressure? Might be just as cheap to get a new 200 or 250 PSI working pressure air tank.
@@MV_Argonaut fire king looks like the only people I can find in the Seattle area that does pressure testing however if you can get the old tank out I’d say it would be best to swap it out entirely an old propane tank that people use for their homes is a good choice for a replacement and or you could see about getting a newly made pressure vessel I believe they sell new for a few hundred to a few thousands of dollars depending on size and thickness of material but I’d hate to see an air tank light off and hurt someone
Use the wire woven Klinger graphite gasket material. lubricate the spindles with nickel never seize and buy some pin punches instead of butchering a screw driver that has the potential to cause more damage. PS, make sure the faces of the flanges are flat.
Thank you, that is good advice!
@@MV_Argonaut The gasket material you used looks suitable, look at the temperature the valves reach when the engine is running and get a lubricant that can operate at that temperature, the engine assembly lube is not really suitable and could cause the valves to stick, the boat looks fantastic, and the Gardner is a work of art.
Ok thanks for the advice on the engine lube. The valves don't see a surface temperature more than about 130 to 140 degrees (the whole engine is warm to the touch, even after a full day running). I don't think heat is too much of a concern but I assume the valve itself is experiencing a much higher temperature than what I can measure externally. You aren't the only person to comment about the engine lube choice, I appreciate all of your input and advice.
@@MV_Argonaut A lot of lubricate eventually dries out the parts seize, what are the clearances on the spindle to the bore of the valve.
I remember my father rebuilding engines back in the day, he would clean most of the carbon from the pistons, valves etc, but would leave the edges of the carbon alone as that is where the seal is formed
That air tank scares me , very cool rig
Yes...scares me too. I am trying to find a professional who can help me inspect it (let me know if you know any in the Seattle area!)
@@MV_Argonaut Much less scary than you think - There should be a data plate which gives the normal working pressure and the test pressure. It is tested with water - you fill it completely and use a hand pump or even a pressure washer pump to pump to the test pressure - the secret is that though it is a high pressure water is not compressible so no energy can be stored - i.e. the tank can burst but once a few milli-liters of water escape the pressure is back to normal and it is not dangerous.
Check out both Keith Rucker and Project Brupeg - both have done this.
You can also get a snake cam which attaches to a mobile phone and inspect the interior - it fails if there are any deep pits, paint strip the outside and same rules, repaint with a good oil based primer and paint.
If it is just you the above may be all you need - if you take paying passengers you need it done and certified by a professional - Find a local Scuba centre, they'll point you to a test facility - (dive tanks operate at upto 4,500 psi (300bar) and are tested hydraulically at 5 year intervals and an annual visual.)
Your real danger point is at the bottom of the tank - you need to drain/blow off moisture but you use the stored pressure to start - modern shop compressors have an electric valve to do this every 10 minutes of run time, but the older ones you just open the valve at the end of the day and let it bleed down.
My shop compressor is from the 70's and has a tank built of 1/2" (13mm) plate, modern ones are a fraction of that and has 2 oval ports to allow regular inspections - may be 50 years old but the inside is perfect.
Another tip is use a sheet of glass as a 'surface plate' - you can clean a sheet of sandpaper and contact adhesive it to a glass sheet - this will allow you lap flat mating surfaces properly flat - figure of 8 motion and keep rotating the workpiece a little every few turns.
Copper gaskets can be softened (annealed) by heating till they almost glow and then quenching immediately in water or white vinegar (Vinegar cleans better)
I was running a start diesel and one of the air start valves hung up open
The exhaust gasses backed up into the air start manifold and the pipe glowed bright red !
Oh man, what kind of engine? That sounds terrifying. Nothing gets too hot on this one - the cylinder heads are warm to the touch after running alll day, about 140 F
Cooper Bessemer air start manifold system .
The head was fine but the leaking air start valve let the high pressure high temperature gasses out into the air start piping .
It got so hot it glowed
The valve needed to be grinder and then lapped in to get a good seal .
Interesting, sounds like a similar issue. I had one valve leak at the gasket, which produced a lot of smoke/exhaust but nothing too concerning. This engine turns slow and doesn't heat up too much. You can touch each cylinder head with your bare hands after running it for an entire day.
Noah had a Gardener, diesel. They were (until the greenie brigade) the finest diesels ever made. Rolls-Royce are as good but a lot more expensive. Gardener realised that with cheap imports and the high cost of 'greenyfying' their engines, they were going to struggle. They closed, a very sad day for a superb company who put quality first at a competitive price. It's the story of all good British engineering. RIP.
I know it - but there's still a great culture around these engines and rebuilding and keeping them going is very much alive!
Nice job of valve lapping !
Thank you! Cheers!
you need a small lathe from Harbor Freight //and use bench roll sand paper as its turning on the lathe //and use copper sheet 35,000 thick //make your Gaskets //keep the lathe with 12 inch swing on board and 1018 steel rods to make parts as needed you need a set of mic 1 ich to 3 inch I like Brown & shape MICS , i AM A HYDRAULIC ENGINEER 25 YEARS , have a nice day
I would be interested in knowing how you keep the hull fasteners from rotting out, or even the timbers. My guess is that someone has completely taken this boat apart in the past and put new lumber in. The fishing boats i see in our local marina built of wood, all have a few rusting fasteners with rust streaks running down them.
Hi Mike,
While I have not done a proper inspection of the hull fasteners, but as far as I know everything below the water line is generally original wood. I did perform a massive planking job this spring, putting in 37 planks on the starboard side, with about 20 frames as well. What is below the bilge waterline was all in incredible condition - mostly due to the oil that historically was changed and dumped into the bilge to help preserve the wood. I do not think anything has been replaced since the 1939 install of this engine.
Why don’t you contact Cometic (my first choice) or Fel-Pro and see if the can make you some new gaskets. Cometic makes excellent metal gaskets and in fact they may actually have something that is very close to your gasket.
I worked with Gardico in Ballard, Seattle who made some metal gaskets for me. They have been working great so far!
Ran these in our buses in the UK solid motor
I will make this comment for what it is worth, in regard to the copper-asbestos gaskets you are replacing. Your statement was that you had replacements made from "......soft, squishy metal....". Soft, squishy "metal"??? I'm going to suggest that the gasket is actually made from a graphite-based material. Google "graphite gaskets", and any number of sites will pop up, providing good background on "graphite gaskets". The "squishyness" of the material in this case would be a result of how graphite gasket materials are made.
Great engine, great video!!
Hi, thank you! The material is a gasket material that I picked up from a company that specializes only in making gaskets for primarily commercial vessels here in Ballard. I reached out again to try to answer to what the actual material was called, but it may have been a graphite gasket. I appreciate your comment, and will try and follow up once I learn more. They have been working great so far!
My father had one of those engines in a 60ft Scottish trawler that we brought from Southern Ireland. As a child it used to scare the hell out of me. Sad to say that only her ribs can be seen on a spring ebb on the sands of Skegness, North Norfolk England.
The Argonaut has sone pretty lines on her ✌️🇬🇧
Edit; say hi to Leo and Tally Ho for me 👍
Hi Mark, thanks! that sounds like a wonderful boat, but sorry to hear that it has sunk.
If you can find a turbo oil return gasket it would work perfectly
Hello Argonaut, I have a video of the same engine from a boat being dismantled about a year ago. I think they took care in removing the engine and setting it aside. It was in dolphin boat yard Falmouth uk and might still be there. The video is called life of a wooden boat part 2.
Thanks! I will look that up.
Is this engine a two stroke diesel? Very interesting! Thanks
It's a 4 stroke diesel.....google is your friend.
Also search in YT for Gardner diesel engines and be prepared to go down a rabbit hole of interest...
The Gardner 6L3 is a four stroke engine
More videos please
I’m working on them! New to video editing so it’s taking me a while. What else would you like to see? Lots of history of the boat, boat projects, and this summer I’ll be going north towards Alaska
@@MV_Argonaut would love to see a video on the boat overall and then maybe some on specific parts of the boat. Oh and your adventures are a must to see but letting us know more about the boat would build viewer investment.
Thanks! I am working on it, and still trying to learn how to edit videos so that they are pleasing. They take a lot of time! I'm prioritizing fixing some systems right now before my trip, and then plan to post as much content as I can this summer. I so appreciate your support, this first real video has been incredible to see how much interest is out there!
Is there facility, for electric starter motors ? Carl ex Gardner fitter. Just saw the last clip, does not have a starter ring on the flywheel.
No starter ring, so long as I can keep the air start system running my preference is to keep it the way it is. It’s working great since the fix!
If the valves continue to blow the gasket, you could probably get a piece of sandpaper, and lay it on a good flat surface and carefully resurface the face of the valve body.
Yes, thanks for that tip. Others have mentioned the same. So far, it seems to be working just fine! Thank you!
Why not use fully annealed copper for the gaskets? It should conform nicely and never leak.
I have not heard of annealing until some people left comments, and looks like that would have also been a great solution. I had some metal gaskets built by Gardico in Ballard, Seattle, and they have held up great since. Thanks for the suggestion, and something to know in the future :)
Nice video! Just a suggestion, since you seem to be a newer content creator. Be careful about the volume transitions between things like your narration and the music. When the music started, it nearly blew my headphones off. (Not really, but you get the idea.) Looking forward to seeing more from you!
Hi, thank you that is a kind suggestion and I definitely realized that/you are not the first person to provide that feedback. I'm still learning how to edit, and am going to try to be more thorough on normalizing the volume before exporting next time. I so appreciate you sharing the feedback and thank you so much!
You were dockside in a shipyard I was working at in Seattle a couple years back. Beautiful boat
Yes! Currently moored at Stimson. Come say hello next time you see her!
From nz we had an old trawler built in 1925 had an old 5lw Gardner motor you could start it on 1 cylinder then introduce the others 1 at a time love the old engines like what you have.
That’s really awesome.
How could you not show us the results of lapping the ?valves
Haha ahh I got that question from a friend. They stopped leaking! It’s a hard thing to show but I can post a follow up. Thanks for the feedback!
See Jims Automotive Machine shop YT channel...
and watch them use Prussian blue smeared on both surfaces of valve and seat...
where the valve seats there is no Prussian Blue left
as the two metals rub it off if the seal is good....
Ok thank you, this is all great advice, I appreciate your input and the recommendation.
That is so cool
good stuff
Thank you! Hoping to have much more coming!
Where in the heck do you get parts !!!
Trips to Uk barns ???
The good thing about old stuff is you can fix or make most of it from scratch
I haven't had much of a need to look for parts for this engine, but there are surprisingly quite a few Gardners still around here on the coast of British Columbia, although I have not seen any of the 6L3s like this one. I have been lucky to run into several Gardner owners who have shared their support which has been very helpful.
Trade school machine shops will often make strange parts for strange engines, often for free.
All that work why didn’t you face off the gasket seating faces?
Great stuff. If you can't get an old boat fixed in Ballard or P.T it's not getting fixed. Also what type of oil goes in the drippers? just 10-30 or something ?
Are you talking about the oilers that drip onto the shaft? To be honest, I have a giant oil tank full of who knows what (pretty sure it’s new oil, but just a mix of whatever previous owners were using). I go through maybe a quart of oil per 15 (?) hours underway.
May i ask why you're not using gasket paper/material?
Hi - for most of my time cruising up north last summer, I did not have access to acquire any gasket material, but ended up finding someone who shared a sheet with me. I waited until I returned to Seattle to get some metal gaskets professionally made with the hope it will last much longer.
1. Have new valves fabricated when the old ones are out!
2. Pat yourself on the back for being a titan of a boat owner!
3. Enjoy!
Would you say that old diesel is reliable? Beautiful machine, beautiful boat! 🙂
84 years and still going!
@@MV_Argonaut May it run for 84 more years 🙂
good video, thanks
Thanks! Looking forward to trying some more
Do you have indicator air cocks you can open when you bar the engine over to check for water in cylinders prior to starting ?
Do you do compression tests and firing pressure tests ?
When you lap steel and bronze, the steel will be cut because the compound embeds into the bronze and cuts the steel. This is why lapping tools are made of soft material.
Hi Thomas, thank you for sharing, that makes sense and is good to know. I was worried about taking too much material off of the bronze, but the valves seem to be holding up just fine now. Appreciate your help!
Worked with a Gentleman that worked for AMINCO building dead weight gauges tor the Bureau of Standards in Rockville MD enlightened me. @@MV_Argonaut
COOL !!!!~~~~~~~~~
Thanks!
England Calling, do you have a shopping list of what you need, so far I've located a Cylinderhead and exhaust / inlet gaskets (handy to have), do you have an email address I can use. ??
Br Peter
If you want to ke gaskets get some fel pro gasket paper. They wont blow out anymore.
Hey my name is on that engine!
Might some kind of soft metal work. Copper or brass maybe?
Yes! I should have shown more in the video, but I had some soft metal gaskets made and they’ve been working great.
Have you thought about having some better valves machined out for you and keeping them as spares? Jim in Chile
For now, the valves are holding up pretty well, and plenty of material to continue lapping them down if need be
You might want to check that air tank. Looks a bit knarley. They can rust out from the inside and explode.
Hi Eric - thanks. It’s the biggest fear I have aboard and have been trying to get someone to inspect it. I’d like to replace it altogether, just difficult to access and a project I can’t take on right now but it’s high on the list - maybe this winter.
@@MV_Argonaut love your boat! The Gardner is such a beautiful piece of engineering!
Why not use proper gasket paper?
Hi Bob, I did not have any during most of the cruise, so cardboard is what I had on hand. I did find someone who I explained my problem to who loaned me some gasket paper at the end of the trip, and when I got back I sought out the metal gaskets as a better solution. They seem to be working great now.
Try copper gaskets.