As an owner of the original hardware that I've played for years on a regular TV I was REALLY disappointed with the lag of shooters (R-Type and Lords of Thunder) when I got my Mini a couple days ago. They were indeed unplayable. My heart sank. Then I crossed my fingers and hoped it was extra lag because of using default HDTV settings instead of a Game Mode, since it probably doesn't put out the auto low latency request like the newer systems do. Also turned off my AV sync compensation - WAY better! Lag practically eliminated! I highly suspect those having the issue were getting over 100ms latency like I did by not using game mode. For me, it was my first experience with retro gaming on an HDTV, so I didn't know any better. Thought I'd share it.
Studio Nu Thanks for sharing that and you’re absolutely right. Game mode is essential so the TV doesn’t add its own few frames of lag on top of an emulator like a mini already adding a few. Sure it’s still not like playing on real hardware or a higher end emulator, but like you said it still feels good and is a lot of fun. I felt the same way.
Even with game mode turned on you are still getting at least 4+ frames of lag. The best TVs out there can hit about 11ms of latency and PC Monitors around 9ms, but you still can't fix those 4 frames over original hardware.
I had the same experience but I had already watched the video prior to purchasing the mini. It was actually worse than I thought it would be in normal mode but after switching to game mode it worked just fine!
@@ShmupJunkie Do you know where I could look for a TV with a good game mode? I'm not exactly sure what to look for and don't want to spend money on something that might not perform well.
You are on top of your shit and I love it. Example at the 3 minute mark when you displayed the tv settings. You made sure to put "Game Mode On" because you already know if you didn't put that people would have been asking 🙌. You're a natural.
Oh I still got plenty of trolls unhappy with my results and I took them on as they came 🤣. I’m normally not this sour in any videos but all the input lag mini BS was on my nerves and it had to be done. Game mode is a big one. It’s obvious if you are in the know but I can’t tell you how many comments and people I’ve come across that complain about it but didn’t know. Then they turn it on and suddenly all is well. I did a good HDMI lag video not long after that was well received. That’s another one of those I can’t believe I need to make a video about this kind of things 🤣. But it was fun.
I was playing lords of Thunder on the mini and I have to agree, it felt similar to the other games and was an enjoyable experience. Glad I finally picked one up!
That's awesome then I am glad you did too. I originally made these series of turbo mini reviews to help show people what they are missing by listening to a lot of the negativity that was out there at the time. And I think it influenced a lot of them to give it a shot. Not one has ever come back and complained it wasn't worth it, but too many to count have come back saying how great the games were and thankful they got one. It's how I started my channel and am glad I did.
wish i had seen this video when you released it. im ordering tg16 mini right now. talk about late to the party but better late than never. love your channel bro!
Was a much smaller channel back then so it was hard to get noticed, but this vid definitely made it's rounds and ruffled some feathers. 😅 I'm glad you're finally getting one and my PCE vids were a part of it. There are some killer shooters on that system it's totally worth it, let alone the other games too.
@@ShmupJunkie yeah i grew up with turbo duo. i was the one kid that had one in my area. your story of the cybercore competition is epic man. you earned your tgcd.
Ha, I wasn't sure if people were still finding this old video and test. It was early days and I was playing a salty bastard, but it was fun making that. I definitely had some laughs coming up with it and left that on my white board for a while.
You know what else makes the game laggy? Your tv/display! When I initially hooked up my CoreGrafx mini and played Salamander and Ninja Garden, I immediately noticed a fair to moderate amount of input lag. Turns out I had to adjust my LCD TV settings to Game mode and that made all the difference. The games became playable again! You did an awesome job on this video! Cheers my friend!
retroyanx Yeah dude Game Mode is a requirement on any lcd to be able to play. Otherwise it’s adding all kinds of processing designed for tv and film sources. Also I’ve never heard of this Ninja Garden but it sounds amazing 😂 I’d play that.
Okay, I got my SNES classic and the Sega Genesis mini on my TV that have game mode. I have to turned on so I can have a good experience with no input lag, correct.
Lol yeah this video was a product of it’s time. I wonder how relevant it still is anymore or if I even keep it up, but at the time it caused quite a stir and some heated comments. It served its purpose though and I had fun with that formula after lol
@Shmup Junkie - I recently purchased a PC Engine mini running on a CRT monitor using the $15 HDMI to VGA converter suggested by @The Electric Underground in one of his vids. I found it plays really well input wise- been grinding on Lords of Thunder and thought it was worth mentioning.
I'll bet it does, the benefit of no added delay from a monitor is nice. I've never tried that adapter but I know the video and one Mark reviewed. Glad you're enjoying Lords it's a killer game. You'll clear it soon enough if you stay on it. I pretty much use the Earth armor exclusively it's by far the most powerful once over a certain power level. Probably the easiest to clear the game with.
The equation was funny as hell. I was inundated with comments about the lag from "qualified" people, when I first posted a video about the TG16 Mini. I am not susceptible to lag anyway, so I joked about it on stream. This little console is great. It has now become one of my favorites.
I hear ya and not surprised at all. That was my beef, the flooding of trolls with useless perspectives based on little but hearsay. Even though this video showed exactly how much lag the mini has, pretty much the same as any other mini, I wanted to show the facts but also expose the silliness of all the reactions. And the South Park formula seemed the best way to do it. 😂
Great video! Only down side was the system is hard enough to find with everyone ragging on it over the supposed lag. Now that the truth is getting out there, it's gonna be even harder to find.
spriles the US launch was definitely a botch job. I was pretty bummed about it. Now it’s finally out there and I hope they can produce enough. These minis shouldn’t be overpriced collectors items they’re meant for more people to be able to try the games. So I’m hoping more do get made.
Absolutely. They’ve come a long way from the cheap entry level sets they were originally known for. The only knock against my model is that low latency input won’t do 4K it’s 1080p only. But for my retro purposes it’s perfect.
Very late - but after watching these above and beyond vidz - i'm gonna go ahead and pick up one of these Minis - exciting coz a lot/most of these games will be new to me. ✌
You’re in luck as I’ve been seeing them back in stock just recently on Play Asia and some other spots. So you should be able to grab one without over paying. And I have no doubt you’ll enjoy some of the great games on there. These mini videos were how I started my channel over a year ago!
Awesome video. I want to buy one but I’m not certain as to whether or not the lag (as minuscule as it may be) would bother me or not. Also what game was that song at the end of the video from?
I wouldn't say the lag is miniscule... it's pretty moderate and in line with other mini consoles. Like you said, it's a matter if you can adjust to it or not like many do. I made this one a long time ago but if I remember right, the song was from Air Zonk.
I bought the Core Grafx Mini in the prime day sale. Got to say I absolutely love it. Initially I was put off by the negative reviews, I'm glad I bought it and tried it out for myself.
The effort put in this video shows the passion you have for the pc engine. I had a feeling the input lag wasn’t as bad as people were saying. Your right once someone with a lot of followers makes a bold statement like that it spreads around like a rumour. Great video and thanks for clearing up the mini’s name. Can’t wait to get mine.
The Nerd Nest TV Thanks again I do appreciate the great feedback. And based on my numbers the lag is surely there. Dealing with 7-8 total frames is nothing to scoff at. And that’s with a fast display like mine. But so are the other minis so this one is no outlier. The big thing was that all the games test so close to each other, that calling out any one as far worse is odd. With all the time you’ve spent now playing lords will be curious to hear your thoughts when you do finally get the mini to try it on.
Shmup Junkie In my opinion when it comes to emulation on a mini you have to expect a tiny bit of input lag. It won’t be exactly how it is on a CrT on Original Hardware, however it’s still very much playable. Heck I beat Skyblzer on SNES a while ago on a Retron 5 and it had a tiny bit and it was a action platformer. Bottom line is we can all adapt.
Loved the headbanging and the formula. I didn’t get the mini as i have an actual pce to a crt tv (with ssd3 which i saw attached to your super gfx in another video) and i think mister plays some great pce too. But very cool to hear a different opinion on this matter. With actual proof. I did get few mini’s (pre mister...and well as ninty kid i wanted them for collector purposes as well :) )but def did feel lag using wireless pad. But good old bluetooth ;) buying 2.4ghz only now, but will always prefer wired for my twitch gaming needs! Looking forward to more vids sir!
Thanks. Yeah one of these days I need to bring the head banging back for a cameo in the newer videos when it's the right time. Without a doubt the way you're playing is ideal, I have a similar setup. But it sure isn't cheap or easy to do. I have been playing with the Mister lately as well and it works great for PCE so far. The mini was like an inexpensive way for many people to discover the games that don't have the means to play them another way, aside from emulated on a computer with something like Retroarch. And it actually brought a lot of new people into the PCE world. I had tons of friends who loved it, emulated or not. So I was a bit tired of it getting crapped on and wanted to do this. This is probably the saltiest I've ever gotten in any of my videos. 😅
Thank you for doing this!!! I have heard about the lag in Lords of Thunder ever since the mini system was released and heard multiple you tubers (many of whom I like) blast that game in particular as unplayable while some of them blasted the whole console. I think Turbo16 Mini is EXCELLENT! I never even heard of the console as a kid and I think the Turbo Mini is an outstanding way for someone like me to get a chance to experience how awesome this console and games were. So for me with no prior experience playing Lords, I thought the game played very well and couldn't understand what could be different in the original version using original hardware and I thank you for confirming that this console has no more lag than any of the others.
You’re welcome and I’m glad you found this old video and enjoyed it. These original mini videos were the reason I started my channel in the first place. To not believe the bad press and give the games a shot and enjoy them. All mini consoles have a good bit of lag compared to original hardware but these games are all still fun and casually playable. Time has proven me right as this mini is now long sold out and will only get even more expensive. I’m glad you grabbed one before it was too late!
I don't know I'm not trying to pick a fight but I am considerably better on authentic original hardware then I am through emulation on the mini. Should also be noted that original hardware is played on a CRT not HDMI
No you’re totally correct. Original hardware is clearly more responsive and the crt adds no input delay unlike an hdmi display. I can absolutely feel the difference too and prefer playing that way too. This testing was more about showing the delay on this mini was pretty much identical to all other minis and that all the games were nearly identical in their response. And yes it’s very possible to adjust to it and still enjoy the games and play them well. So it was more about debunking a lot of the nonsense info going around back when I made the video. But I wouldn’t begrudge you or anyone for preferring to play on a crt with original hardware. Heck I certainly do too. I just try to see the $99 minis for what they are and not have unrealistic expectations. A lot of fun can be had on them but they’re certainly no replacement for real hardware or something like a MiSTer. I’m with you there.
I just picked up a PC Engine mini. I also have the Neo Geo X. Both r giving me lag. I have no game mode on my Mitaubishi HD TV. Any advice of settings I should be looking for to minimize the lag?
By nature, the mini consoles all have more lag than original hardware. The minis are all in the 5-7 frame range depending on the games, so you can't change that part. But the TV itself adds the rest. Some TVs have more than others. Each one is different but it sounds like you have game mode covered. The older flat screens especially had quite a bit versus many newer models, adding 2-3 frames of their own. But the only settings you can change is on the TV itself, the mini is fixed. Wish I could help more but I'd need to know the exact TV as they are all different.
I think you're onto something with the suckitude coefficient. There might also be an an extra factor with older gamers who can't come to terms with their memories of how good thy believe they were in the 80s and 90s when they had 12 year old reflexes and no pesky job sucking up their time compared to the reality of how far their skills have eroded due to slowing reflexes and the man keeping them down at their daily 9 to 5.
I’m one of those older gamers I wish my reflexes are what they used to be. I could just pick up any new shmup and blow through it in a weekend. It just takes more time and practice now like an older bball player that has to adjust their game when they can’t dunk from the free throw line anymore 😅. But we certainly don’t blame the game for not being as good. That always trips me out. I honestly had way too much fun making that skit. I was watching that episode of South Park and had a Eureka moment 😆
Still, if the original input lag of the game is more than doubled (and it is), this is not a small matter. Quake 3(etc.) players consider framerate less than 120 to be unsuitable for competitive gaming.
Hello Shmup Junkie. Greetings and felicitations from the explosive woods of Austria. It would be great, if you made those tests with the Turbo Tap connected to see if that added additional lag. And if the 8Bitdo wireless ones added to the lag or helped with it. TNX for at least considering.
Hey! Cool to know I have some good people watching from Austria and Germany. I was born in Moscow so I have European roots as well. I did recently get a turbo tap and do have the wireless 8bit do controllers to test. I don't think the wireless will be faster because it's not a direct connection to the mini, it connects to a USB adapter plugged into the same control port. So it would either be almost identical, or a little slower. But I would find out when I test it. I don't have an 8bitdo modified yet to test it. I would be surprised if the turbotap added delay, as it's just a usb hub which normally do not add enough to notice, but it is possible if it's a poor design. When I do get a chance to test those things, I will definitely post about it.
Thank you for this video. I was on the fence. With a little bit of save state practice over the last 2 days, I just 1LC'd Blazing Lazers. I'm not a shooter god either(save state practice is awesome, you get to learn the stages fully powered up to learn for the main run). I am VERY lag sensitive. I have a 65" Samsung q80t, and if there was bad lag, there would be no WAY for me to do that lol. Thanks!
You’re welcome. And it’s not like mini consoles don’t have lag. Many consider 6+ frames a lot in total. I just personally had no issue with it they all felt very playable to me. But more importantly Lords of Thunder wasn’t any different than all the other games I tested. So people that were complaining that one game had worse lag than the others were full of it. It’s just likely the physics of that game that made it feel more noticeable to them, but the actual delay was the same. I’m really glad you’re enjoying these great games on it and didn’t let the fake news ruin that experience for you.
@@ShmupJunkie honestly, it's likely worse for those that have a ton of PC Engine experience. I don't have any of these games committed to muscle memory yet.
I've hooked my PCE mini and my Hyperspin emulation PC to my TV and compared lag on both. I noticed the lag on Lords of Thunder was considerably worse on the PCE mini. I don't have the fancy frame counting devices but the difference is real. Same TV in game mode, both PCE mini and PC going through HDMI, definitely more lag on LOT on PCE mini.
RyuHayabusa06 without a doubt you’re right a dedicated pc will run games with less delay. Not sure which pc you are using but you’re talking about an intel Core processor and a few hundred bucks or more vs an inexpensive $99 all in one unit, so it should definitely not run more than a couple frames delay vs the 3-5 you’ll get from the cheaper mini. That makes total sense. I’m actually not sure what processor the mini runs but I’m sure it’s nowhere near what you have in the PC running hyperspin.
@@ShmupJunkie Why would that make a difference? I've been using emulation PCs for maybe 12-13 years of differing processing power though HDMI and never experienced the kind of lag I'm seeing on Lords on the PCE mini. The lag shouldn't have anything to do with CPU power. I'm not experiencing that problem on any games on the SNES or Genesis minis.
@@RyuHayabusa06 A shot in the dark but set the dedicated pc to run at the same resolution the pc engine runs at. Some tvs add lag if running at 720p or less.
I think the real problem with these “show and tell” reviewers is that that have no concept of what it was like growing up with this console in the first place. Anyone can pick up a turbo mini and do a review, but when you actually bought Lords of thunder back in the day, when you used your hard earned money to buy this game, you better believe you sat down and you put hours into it. You are doing a great job on the show preaching the truth, and sometimes the truth hurts. So stop being babies and put some time into the machine before you do your reviews.
Brian Thomas Barnhart Some of the reviews I’ve seen are by folks who seem to know and played the games too at a younger age. Which perplexes me cause I had no issue playing Lords specifically. But hey to each their own. I respect if someone has trouble with a game and can’t seem to play it with some extra lag for whatever reason. But when they single a certain game out as worse than others all the minions come out to spread the word like gospel. And it’s spreading an opinion at best and misinformation at worst. I actually had a good bit more content and stuff tested but had to edit for brevity. I may throw things in here and there from it in future stuff. I think I got my point across 😂
I bought a Turbo Duo and Lords of Thunder new from TZD back in the 90s. I've played on original hardware. I have an emulation PC running Hyperspin as well as the PCE mini. Both hooked up through HDMI to the same TV in game mode, the lag is far worse on the PCE mini on Lords. It's not a conspiracy.
RyuHayabusa06 I don’t think anyone said it’s a conspiracy. The PCE mini adds 3-5 frames of lag while your other PC and anything more powerful likely half of that or less. Original hardware even less of course. However I can tell you that I measured my Genesis mini objectively with the same tests and it’s delay is nearly the same to this mini. Maybe you don’t notice it with the types of games but it’s there. Never tested the snes mini yet. Note also in my video that I tested lots of games and they pretty much all had near the same delay as each other. There is nothing unique about LoT vs the others and it’s delay isn’t noticeably worse than Bonk or Soldier Blade. In fact you saw in my video that Blade had the worst measurements of all yet it still seems to play fine. If it “feels” different that comes down to how the game plays. And likely the extra lag contributes to that. I can “feel” the difference too vs playing on my original hardware. So you’re not hallucinating there is a difference vs a faster emulator. I can still play it just fine after a few minutes of adjusting to it.
@@RyuHayabusa06I'm kind of having the same experience. I am considerably better on original equipment and original hardware on a CRT than I am through the mini on HDMI
LOL I love the formula... I think the answer is that people forgot or been out of practice... when I had my PC-Engine GT I also owned a copy of Gunhed which I think is called Blazing Lasers in Turbografx side... (by the way the game has nothing to do with the Gunhed movie which was sort of low budget awesome) I finished the entire game when I was a teen... I had my GT upgraded last year new caps and newer higher definition screen and well I suck at Gunhed. Maybe made it to level 3... but it's been more than 20 years since I played it hard core... i assume it's will be the same for Lord of Thunder and other schmups
I always have a harder time playing shmups on the portable too, in general I can only do so well. But you're right on, people are out of practice with old games they used to play. I can't just pick up many old shooters I used to finish and instantly smoke them. Without a doubt there's extra delay on the mini, but it's not so bad you can't even enjoy the game unless you're trying to play on some super hard mode. It normally just has an acclimation period and you get used to how it responds. Lords isn't a particularly hard game in general once you figure it out, I would say finishing Gunhed toward the end can be more challenging and less forgiving.
Love the approach you took to this. You'd think the bigger channels with hundreds of thousands of subscribers would take the time to test things this thoroughly, but I'm glad you did! Subbed ☺
JohnnyGrafx Thanks! And glad you found my channel as I didn’t know yours. Just subbed back and will check out some vids. Cybercore was the game that won me a turbo cd back in the day so lots of nostalgia value there. Glad you liked the vid I put a good bit of time into it. Look forward to checking out some of yours.
This was fantastic to watch, brother! Way to stick it to them. ✊🏽😤 It's sure to ruffle some feathers but the truth needs to be out there and you did it with humor, style and with fairness, too. Once again, we really appreciate the love and effort you're pouring into these videos!
EZ Peezy Thank you man I appreciate the support and that you’re enjoying these. I hope if anyone guilty of some of the things I mentioned ever does see this that they can self reflect and do better instead of just being upset at getting called out on something.
it depend of your lcd too. some lcd have more input lag than other. if you have the habits to use the original console with crt tv you feel the input lag more. 4-5frame of lag in a shmup it's a lot
sdekaar you’re right 100% agree on the tv. Some people that complain have a tv adding lots of extra display lag. I did not expect to be able to score so well on soldier blade on the mini with 7-8 frames but it honestly was good to play. So I was wrong. I thought I would suck in the 2 min but I didn’t 😆
I've just moved from an LCD that was adding around 4 frames of lag on game mode to an OLED that has 6ms at 4k 120hz, I've suddenly "got good" I guess some people are more susceptible to lag than others, it didnt help that I split my gaming between a CRT and a modern display, I don't think the mini pc engine is terrible but it's not up to M2s usual high standards when you also take into consideration the audio delay and the lack of interpolation,.. Also just 1 point on your methodology, your lag test was at 1080p and the mini console outputs 720p, my tests show different results at different resolutions on most tvs,
Pezz 82 All very fair points that I wouldn’t argue. Adding another few frames of display lag on top of the few frames of the mini is a bit excessive. Just as many already feel that those extra 3-5 frames the mini is adding is excessive. Using a decent TV makes a huge difference. And as you noted it suddenly became much more playable. To note on my tester, I did test my particular TV at 720P as well and in this case it’s identical. If it wasn’t the lag numbers would have looked even greater. It was a bit beyond the video scope to mention it but you are correct. Some displays could add additional delay at 720p.
Amazing yet again. Looking forward to dumping more time on the mini. Unfortunately I have not given it the love it deserves and only been giving my NES and THPS2 some love 😅🤦🏻♂️ LoT next though thanks to you and Nerds Nest 😍
Bruno L I don’t blame you for all the nes love it was my first too and I still play them a lot when I can. You’ll hit the mini when the time is right. LoT will be waiting to kick your ass lag and all 😆. Honestly it’s not that bad you’ll be getting to the final level in no time.
I have tried some shooters since I watched your video uploaded before this one and I found that I like Dead Moon quite a bit. But I suck and I need to practice much more.
Clearly the South Park was strong in this one. I think this is the saltiest video I ever made 🤣. Did bring out the trolls though and made the video blow up so I can thank them too.
I’d like to see that too but given how no other mini has had more runs it’s not too likely. When it came out I created this channel and made these early videos to try and spread the word as much as possible. To at least show as many as possible what it has to offer. My channel was small and reach was limited but I did manage to reach so many. But at $200 you can have an analogue duo once it releases (if you can snag one very quickly as they sell out in minutes), so yeah not for 300 plus. That’ll practically get you a mister at that price.
This was absolutely BRILLIANT! I love when people show actual data and numbers. I also think with the Time Sleuth becoming widely available now, others will be able to easily duplicate these lag test and these things "should" clear up. However this is the internet we are talking about...
Vanessaira Thanks I appreciate it and am glad you enjoyed it. I think the hardest part with these test is being able to properly wire these controllers with an led. Eyeballing it just doesn’t cut it so you need that visual indicator. And not many will be able to solder the board to do it. This little video on my tiny channel has certainly gotten some traction (and likely ruffled a few feathers lol).
Great data and methodology - always appreciate when someone breaks out the leo bodnar. It is worth mentioning the elephant in the room....that Lords of Thunder‘s gameplay is obviously fast and frantic. That whole 3-4 frames of additional lag + any added LCD Tv lag is definitely going to be felt in that type of game, similarly to how it would be felt in sonic or mario when attempting to run fast and jump at the very edge of a platform, or in the infamous battle toads hover jet bike level when dodging the walls....but you know this lol. Subscribed.
Jason Steighner Really glad you enjoyed it and thanks for the positive feedback. No doubt the lag can be felt myself included. A decent tv is important. There is a point where it becomes too much and that’s a matter of skill and opinion I’m sure. I and many others I know have no real trouble playing it so I did have to wonder why some other folks singled it out. To that point, Soldier Blade caravan and many of the shooters on this mini are quite a bit faster playing than Lords. Approx. same lag just the ship moves faster. Nobody seems to take issue with them. So I almost wonder if the slower speed of your character in Lords vs something like Blade is a factor in how people may perceive it. You have to be deliberate in Lords and think a step ahead when playing.
Shmup Junkie Interesting. I actually haven‘t played lords of thunder but am really curious now - not willing to shell out for the TG mini after amassing enough minis though lol. My most recent endeavors have been Darius and Thunderforce 3 on the genesis mini. Thunderforce actually gives you the option to adjust your ship‘s speed - I find the fastest option to be the most uncontrollable on a laggy TV. You‘re absolutely right about the TV. I have been cursing my LG 47LK520 which has 3-4 frames of lag compared to my TN panel laptop even in gaming mode. But, once I plugged the genesis mini into an office grade 60 hz TN monitor (slightly lower lag than my tn laptop) it was a great improvement in responsiveness for both of those SHMUPs. Sonic 2 on the genesis mini is still sadly worse than any other options I have tried, including even retroarch on the ps classic and just recently tested on Mister (amazingly low lag just by feel).
I'm curious - did you try connecting the light to the dpad? in some of games they have an "always on" rapid fire timer that will run regardless of input, and then upon firing you'll catch the next timer loop. that would explain much of the variance, and movement would have less room for that. other games will alsi bake in some attack delay but not as much movement delay (looking at you, bonk) - just some additional perspective that might help narrow things down! personally the combined lag is too much for me (and when it comes to emulation I've been spoiled by runahead) but it's still a lovely product! just wish they'd get better scaling options.
For this early video I only had it on the fire button at the time. But at least all of the games were pretty consistent, Lords was about the same delay as all the others. In general even on original hardware, Lords runs about a frame slower than basic hucard games and some other CD games, and it was the same on the mini emulating it. I always respect anyone who prefers to not play on an inexpensive emulator like a mini because they want better performance, or a Pi or whatever. I can feel the extra delay too playing on any of them, and given the option use some other method. Even Bonk doesn't have as much delay as people like to say, as testing it on original hardware his attacks and jumps come out just as fast as other games. It's the wind up (he pulls his head back first) before the attack that makes it feel like it takes a bit longer, but the animation starts in 2 frames or less on the real system. The mini is for casual play, just to enjoy the games again or experience them for the first time, and if people really like them and want to get serious, there's a million better ways, like emulation with run ahead that you mentioned. No serious player or scorer is going to use a mini console for anything but some fun. But that's what it's meant for and it's very nice like you mentioned for that purpose. It's all the silly folks trying to judge a hyundai like a ferrari, expecting too much out of a processor that likely cost less than $30. And like my video showed, the delay is there, several frames isn't trivial, but consistent across all the games. I wonder if proper integer scaling was just too much overhead considering the delay it already had without it. I'm actually more curious why the audio delay has to be there, as that seems more emulation driven than system performance, but we never got an answer on it from any of the mini console devs.
@@ShmupJunkie for sure, agreed across the board for the most part - i will say i'm glad the Pi emulation scene is slowly being shifted over to something like the FPGA-based MiSTer which is just so much better. excited for the day when features like runahead end up in every emulator and dedicated emulation boxes - more casual players will finally stop saying old games feel "sticky" because of compounded input issues. regarding audio emulation, it's likely a case of buffering. you need to buffer audio a bit otherwise it can stutter, crackle, and pop, you can't do audio "in real time" per se like you would on a dedicated sound chip that just pukes out waveforms (and even then, "real time" is a misnomer, though it may as well be to us). slower processors need a larger buffer. emulating audio is actually *really* intense, especially doing it even remotely accurately - sometimes more intense than everything else combined, especially if you emulate the audio amp! - so giving it a big buffer since it is, to our eyes/ears, lower priority, makes sense. it's just one of the concessions that has to be made, unfortunately. while it might initially make sense to emulate everything at once, it has to be remembered that the chips in these minis can only process serially, so it can't do one thing and then the other at the same time, or even get fast enough to approximate it. instead, you kind of jump back and forth between processes one at a time, imagine it like jumping between a bunch of assembly lines where one gets most of your attention and constantly has packages being sent out, while another one gets larger packages less frequently and later than the rest. i hope that analogy makes sense! this is why FPGAs are so exciting for retro games, since you can do parallel processing and split up the chip to do many things at the same time - input, display, audio, etc. and they're only getting cheaper! here's hoping we see them implemented in the next round of minis, if that ever happens. and re: scaling - they're already doing nearest neighbor to the current display size, and integer is just a form of nearest neighbor that happens to land on, well, an integer. doesn't cost any more or less, it just seems like a poor oversight. the real solution is to integer scale to either one below or one above the full resolution, then bilinear (or better) to the 4:3 size. interestingly, project lunar gives us these options, so clearly the processor is capable! it just kinda feels like m2 was under serious crunch being a small company and being given so many "quick, these are trending, we need more!" products to get to market. they deserve so much better.
That's a great question with a very good answer. I did a whole comparison video on it right here! Lords is special to me so it was the very first comparison I ever did. ua-cam.com/video/aPPw7yahlbY/v-deo.html
Interesting video - though I think the main reasons why the MD and PCE minis were criticised were that they clearly exhibit more input lag than the SNES Classic AND that M2's reputation was pretty much unsullied prior to these recent low-end emu-boxes. It was probably wildly unrealistic to expect better accuracy from devices that have the processing power of a Raspberry Pi 2 but they are what they are.
-SG6000- You’re right on about unrealistic expectations. There are things I’d have liked to see such as proper interpolation and faster response, but I’m not the programmer to know if that was M2’s deficiency or the hardware. But I’m very interested to test the snes classic against the MD and this one to see what I get for results. I’ve been thinking about doing just that.
@@ShmupJunkie I understand that when the MD Mini's kernal was disassembled it was discovered that the CPU had been significantly underclocked - likely to mitigate any potential heating issues due to some motherboards using lower quality components than others (explaining why not all MD Mini consoles can be 'overclocked' safely). I don't own one to be able to verify this but it does suggest that the product was compromised on a basic level for simple economic reasons. Having said that though, these products aren't really aimed at real hardware enthusiasts, people who own OSSCs and lag testing equipment etc.
-SG6000- that’s good info I hadn’t read into forums enough on the Sega mini so hadn’t heard of that. Not surprising of course. I do use my OSSC a lot with real hardware and it’s gorgeous, but sometimes the convenience of these minis are nice. Maybe I’m just not as picky as many since the games are my priority and I seem to enjoy them fine on the mini too. And I have realistic expectations like you said. I can tell the difference, and I don’t expect $200 performance out of a budget product, but they’re still fun given you have a decent display that’s not piling on even more delay. So I’m happy to champion these as it’s been a great way for new folks to get their feet wet with the library. I know quite a few that are now looking into the hardware after really liking the games on the mini... which they’d never played until this point.
Retro Tuna Yes good point. Lots of people don’t realize all games have certain frames of lag built into them even if their display is a crt. The emulator adds more lag which some people don’t like and I respect their opinion. But if they can’t even manage to play a game it says more about their inability to adjust than the game itself. Just saw your channel and subbed. 👍🏻 Will check out that PCE stream later on my long drive 😊
Retro Tuna I think that was my bud Retroheed he’s a great dude. He ran them for final soldier and super. I took over for soldier blade after. Yeah super fun. FYI retroheed is doing a really fun little contest right now for omega blast on the mega drive. Free rom and it’s really fun. He is keeping track of the scores for the week.
Nothing against the mini, but I prefer original hardware. Playing a game as fast and chaotic as Lords of Thunder on a machine created in the late 80's is mesmerizing o.O (The PC Engine is an ANIMAL) This video must have taken an insane amount of work, super appreciate it!
I think anyone normally would if it weren’t so expensive especially with the Duo and CD games. I use flash carts a ton too. The best thing to happen recently was the awesome Mister core so I can use a CRT and get flawless performance. It’s just not nearly plug and play. To me the mini is like an entry point or gateway for new people to try out the games and want to see more. I know quite a few that finally played games on it and enjoyed so many they got into more through other means. So it’s really good for that. I’m glad you enjoyed the vid it was one of my earliest ones. Compared to the super involved ones I make now for histories etc it seems quaint and didn’t take nearly as long at the time. But it’s still an old favorite I had fun with that stupid formula lol
@@ShmupJunkie Yes, i totally agree on the emulation vs OG hardware. I actually got into the PC Engine because i was watching a classics video and noticed how vibrantly the colors popped(I think the game was Fantasy Star Soldier). Tried it out on an emulator and just like you said with the others, took the dive into real hardware from there. The prices *are* super high for a PCE+CD, but with a little repair wizardry(replacing caps or the notorious yellowed gear), can be had for a reasonable number.
Beat this game last week. It's kind of nuts how much better the water armor is than the other three. edit - also lol at the suck coefficient part. its true. I got so frustrated when first getting into shmups but you have to stick with them. I think people lack attention span now.
Believe it or not the earth armor is the most overpowered and the one I prefer. It’s not very good if you are powered down so it’s more of an advanced armor, but at a decent power level it melts most everything very quickly. I actually have a harder time playing with anything else at this point haha
@@ShmupJunkie Im definitely gonna keep playing it, trying the harder difficulties. I'll check it out. I found the water armors ability to take out ships coming in behind you as so useful.
Emmett Turner You’re absolutely correct and I saw your comment on the FB group. I answered it much more completely there, but the short answer is I verified that my specific display has no additional delay at 720p. You make a great point and one we should be asking of other numbers we see.
I have the Pc Engine Mini and I am happy with it. In regards of lag, I played for the example the Mega Drive Mini and thought that everything was okay, but after purchasing the Analogue Mega SG, I was directly better in frame sensitive games like Thunderforce 4 and Contra. In comparision I am very skilled for NES titles and had no issue with the Famicom Mini. I Think in regards of Emulation, you can still play these Minis and have fun with it, but these lag discussion is very based on feelings from different players during gameplay. I had also a raspberry pi 3 and sucked at games there I usually master. So, as far as these Minis are better than a raspy, it is good enough.
Freddy R you are completely correct. Extra lag makes it harder to adjust to a game. So if you are very good at some you will adjust better than others. You take responsibility for that adjustment and don’t blame the game for it. It’s an inexpensive emulator under $100 that performs better than a pi and is convenient. Correct sir
This is awesome! I've heard so much shit talked about the PCEM yet playing the games I can't notice any lag worthy of worrying about at all. Is there any chance of you doing one of these for the Megadrive Mini 2 pls? Specifically on Robo Aleste as you have Lords of Thunder here? I've read a lot of complaints about that being "unplayable" and I think it plays fine, and they are just shit players.
I was going to lag test the new mini if I got a chance yeah, but I wasn't planning on doing a full video for it. My schedule is too backed up and by the time I got to it, nobody will watch it'll be old news. But I'm curious myself and would like to see how it runs. As I actually heard it uses a faster processor than the previous so it may perform even better. I do know RetroRGB did some in depth lag testing on it and their stuff is legit and accurate. You don't have to agree with their opinion as they are sticklers and find anything above a very minimal amount unacceptable. But that's just interpretation. Their actual numbers and test methods are reliable. Anything at 6-7 frames or less on a $99 mini is what I normally see.
@@ShmupJunkie Nice. Yeah, a quick 5-10 min vid would be fine anyway, just be interesting to get your findings on it seeing as you test these things thoroughly. This vid gave me a good laugh to with the awesome piss-taking via formulas, so part of me wants to see something similar to that again lol.
LoT is hard as balls, but I do blame my complete suck-ness for that ... and nothing else. I can even get further on PULSTAR than I can on LoT, and that ain't no pushover.
Damn really? Pulstar is a beast of a game, I think LoT is a weakling by comparison. But it's different playstyle for everyone I guess. I think I only finished Pulstar one time legit. You die late in that game it's all over.
@@ShmupJunkie Well when I say I get further, it's not that far, not finished it, so well done you. I think it's the controls, I just got the coregrafx mini (UK) recently, not used to the controller yet. I play pulstar emulated on a joy-pad, which is a bit easier to get used to initially.
Lol right on man. Way to call out all the suckitud and parroting going on from reviewers. That air zonk start screen behind you is awesome. Nice job using tools to verify.
Shmup Junkie Yeah I completely agree. Can’t just take somebody’s word for it because they assume that person is credible enough to present facts and not anecdotal evidence.
I have been playing TG16 since it came out and I just picked up the mini and with out a doubt there is lag in the mini. I struggle playing blazing lasers in the mini but breeze through it on my real Duo. I am guessing there is a good 1/2 sec lag between controller actions and screen movement. Sorry but the unit needs to fix this.
David Decker Have you checked your TV to make sure your Game mode is turned ON? The mini does add some lag but a half second is way too much. It sounds like something is wrong.
@@ShmupJunkie By game mode do you mean 120hz or sports mode? No I keep my TV at 60hz for movies. I will give that a try though. FYI I don't have any modern gaming systems. The most current system I have in the house is a Wii that my wife bought. All my systems are PS1, Saturn, Genesis, Sega CD, Turbo Duo and so on.
David Decker no it’s a different setting. The refresh rate is for sports mode like you said so you don’t get that ugly soap opera effect. I keep it off too. Game mode (or whatever your tv manufacturer likes to call it) turns off all the extra video processing to enhance the image. It usually adds its own 2-3 frames of delay vs having it off. Every brand calls it something else. If you reply with the make and model of your TV I can likely tell you where in the menu it is or what they call it. Maybe you already have it enabled but it’s worth checking as you want it in that mode for all gaming retro or modern.
@@ShmupJunkie I will take a look and let you now how it goes. I also heard the unit has already been hacked so people can add additional ROMs to it. Personally not having the legendary Axes, Keith Courage, Devils Crush, Dungeon Explorer 2, Cosmic Fantasy 2 on there was a big drop.
I’m pretty disappointed by this video. I’ve become a big fan of the channel and have gradually watched many of the older videos. Here, I’m genuinely a bit baffled. 3.5-4 frames of lag isn’t great for an emulator. It’s not abhorrent, but it’s not good either, right? It seems extremely fair to say the emulation’s results are pretty lacking (setting aside the not-great pixel scaling). I bought the TurboGrafx-16 Mini myself, and am all for the mini consoles and accessibility. I wouldn’t blame M2 either. The real problem is these Allwinner SoCs and such are super super cheap, and thus perform like one would expect. M2 can’t work miracles. Additionally, I have little doubt Sega and Konami imposed constraints on M2 that they had no control over. There’s pretty much no chance Sega and Konami really sweated the technical details and gave M2 the time and resources to truly achieve the best possible results. Is 3.5-4 frames of input lag normal enough for emulators? Sure. Is it up to M2’s standards? Can’t exactly say it is, right? I wouldn’t dunk on MLiG and Coury for those comments, imho. To expect them to be hardcore shmup players and already familiar with these games in-depth (as opposed to literally thousands of other games) is I think pretty unrealistic. He gave subjective impressions of how he felt playing Lords of Thunder, which are not invalid. He relied on the input lag tested that they showed from the professional gamer. And by and large what they said is accurate: the input lag (and audio lag and scaling issues) is similar to the Genesis/Mega Drive Mini. I genuinely don’t get why you’re trashing them based on penis size (really?) in some skit just to dunk on the fact they didn’t realize all the games have similar emulation lag. It’s not like they trashed the product anyway. You can tell they were very polite about their criticisms because they have extreme adoration for M2’s technical work. Anyhow, as someone similarly obsessed with technical details, seems fairly objective to highlight the natural input lag that results with emulation on such cheap chipsets. But totally understand your love for the PC Engine and these games. For sure you brought a lot of value in these videos highlighting the platform and games themselves :)
First off, thank you for the genuine and thoughtful comment. I have no issue at all with some negative feedback when it's earnest like yours. I have to be honest, this video is now easily taken out of context as it was a product of it's time and I've considered making it private, and have only left it up because I felt the info and results were important to showcase. As not a single other video has done it to this day. It was the third video I ever I made I believe, back when I just started my channel for fun and to do some PCE Mini reviews with no expectations. So I was just having dumb fun with it all and spreading my passion for it, throwing anything at the wall and seeing what sticks. I actually love MLiG and those guys, having watched them mostly for their tech content for many years. And we are both subscribed to each others channels, with them watching some of mine as well. For some context, this video was actually aimed at several channels and not intended to single them out at all, as they were just one of many guilty of singling out Lords as a problem game on the console. I actually WISH these mini consoles could get 3.5-4 frames of delay as that would be amazing, but they are 6-7 AT BEST on a very good day. All of them. I've yet to test one that isn't. Like you said, their processor is cheap. And I loved what M2 did with it despite the limitations. These are inexpensive $99 entry level toys meant to enjoy the games on a surface level, possibly relive old memories for those who don't have other ways to do so, and potentially be a gateway to exploring more of the library. Definitely not for serious scoring. But just good enough to still play the games effectively and enjoy them. Completely casual. So when I made these videos, it was to the backdrop of a large uproar on the Internet of how the PCE Mini had terrible lag issues and wasn't worth picking up. Which after playing mine for as week, I quickly realized was complete nonsense. I wasn't on youtube yet, but knew A LOT of folks in the community and my DMs were absolutely flooded with messages. All asking me if the negative info out there was true as they were really looking forward to the release and disappointed by what they were seeing. When I finally got my hands on mine and spent a week playing it, I realized what was out there was inaccurate and mostly bandwagon trolling that's so common. And it was pretty upsetting as I felt this mini was a phenomenal way to expose new players to this obscure library of games. And no matter how much I looked, I could barely find the rare video focusing on what I thought were the best aspects of the console. Instead they mostly parroted the same info they heard elsewhere without actual tests. So I set out to make these videos and give my take on the Mini, and try to offset the flood of negative content out there. MLiG was actually quite gracious aside from their LoT comment and I fault them for nothing aside from being overly critical of a $99 cheap piece of hardware. Unfortunately most took these handful of large youtube videos to heart and created an atmosphere of negativity around the console. I made it my goal to offset it somehow and the rest is history I suppose. As the videos somehow did really well despite me being brand new and had a positive effect which was obvious by the comments. And it was that positive flood of comments and response that actually forced my hand to keep making videos. I was able to convince a large following to disregard the negativity around it and give the mini a shot, which they did. What followed was an even larger flood of DMs and comments thanking me up and down for changing their mind about the PCE Mini, as they absolutely loved it after getting it from watching my video reviews. It was a big part of what kept me going and helped me decide to expand my content. So this video was purposefully salty and I absolutely see how today it comes across that way. It was meant to elicit a response and counteract the mountain of negative content at the time with actual tests and numbers. And all it showed was that this mini performed the same as every one that came before... and that all the games performed near equally across the board including LoT. At a lag level that while not great, didn't make any of the games impossible to play. I realize now some of the jokes come across as a bit crass and low brow, but that was all part of the learning process for me. I doubt I would make a video like this now and that's all part of the learning and growing process doing youtube. But looking back at the comments, it not only brought the trolls to the yard where I could shut them down, but also changed a lot of people's minds on giving the mini a chance. I've always been a proponent on not blaming lack of skill or practice on input delay and still hold to that line of thinking, somewhat of a counterpoint to my good friend Mark at the Electric Underground. I just go about it a bit more eloquently now instead of homaging South Park lol. But I've left this up for it's nostalgic/historic value to a lot of my original subs. It's a big part of what got my channel going back then, warts and all and blew up for what was literally my third ever video. And it was all done with tongue firmly in cheek. So I hope you don't take it too much to heart. I honestly thought the riff on the South Park formula was pretty funny, if not overly silly and dumb.
@@ShmupJunkie Firstly, thanks in turn for the thoughtful comments. Sorry if I caused any stress at all; I almost deleted my comment right after submitting it. I can tell you’re a good guy and genuine person, so no sweat there. Also I had no idea about the South Park skit, so that’s definitely mitigating :) And I also understand a little about content creation, having done it briefly on a different platform. Everyone expects perfection and will gripe about even the smallest perceived nit. It’s super stressful of course. I still have content up that has minor errors for example that I really wish I could fix, but for dumb reasons I’m not able to correct or take them down. And in my case my first piece of content did huge numbers, but I hated it because I got a bunch of stuff wrong and did several follow-up pieces to correct for those mistakes. We’re all guilty of nit picking or getting aggravated about inaccuracies both ways regardless. We’re all human. Plus the internet is the worst place for nuance and multifaceted discussions, nonetheless UA-cam. I’m probably very quick to defend Coury particularly because I know he takes criticism super hard. Agree he was a little careless with the LoT comment, but he does a ton of great work in general which is super hard to come by on these topics. Plus MLiG is always quick to stress that “you should play the way _you_ want to play,” and that emulation is a wonderful solution as a whole. I do very much appreciate the input lag numbers you and The Electric Underground put out. It’s tough to find any technical data anywhere among the sea of garbage on the internet, and even small amounts of data can really help consumers. (Please do keep covering ports of non-shmup games like arcade collections as well!) I’m still watching your other videos for the record, and these TG16 videos have inspired me to actually play my TurboGrafx Mini more. You definitely are the best shmup channel, and I’ve learned a lot from your videos. I know John Linneman is a big fan of yours as well, which is how I found this channel. Keep doing what you do 👊
Heh funny and informative video :) I did a 1-Life replay of Soldier Blade on Hard difficulty on my channel and didn’t notice the variable input delay, weird. Numbers don’t lie I guess :) Subbed.
I’m sure it’s because you know the game so well. I don’t notice it either. That’s why I was surprised by what I got and had to retest multiple times. But once I got it on both original hardware and the mini I knew it had to be legit. I didn’t know you posted a playthrough I’m going to check it out later! I haven’t beaten SB on a single life yet there’s a couple spots that get me. Always fun to see how someone else does it.
Shmup Junkie heh yeah I like my PCE shooters :) I agree with your video that most people say the lag on Lords of Thunder is bad because they’re not thinking what they’re doing half the time and just want instant results. As you know shooters are pretty punishing and unless you actually put your mind to it and get creative and think what you’re doing you’re gonna die a lot. You put in it a funnier way obviously :)
I appreciate your comments on people's ability to spread misinformation via social media and youtube channels, and I especially appreciate your refreshingly considerate and thorough lag tests! That said, there's no way you could possibly defend a total input lag of 7-9 frames in a shoot'em up, and I think your tests only confirm the criticism that's already out there. If the console adds up to 4 frames on top of an already inherently laggy setup (and this is considering your TV which is in the absolute low end of lag on popular HDMI monitors), that's enough to spiral the game way into the red zone, where it's absolutely guaranteed to impact your gameplay negatively. It might still be juuuust low enough that most people won't immediately *notice* it, but there's no way it won't affect how they play, which puts the console solidly in the area of online disputes where one camp will complain about the lag, while the other camp claims they don't see the lag.
Morten Riis Svendsen I wouldn’t disagree with you at all here. I’m the first to admit having played these games since I was young that I can feel the lag using an emulator. And I can see why some would just complain and not want to play that way. While others like myself will just enjoy it for what it is and be able to adjust and still play the game effectively. You have other reviews claiming some games play just fine while others do not (LoT) when the numbers don’t bear out that result. It says more about their gameplay than the game itself. But you are correct 7-9 total frames is a lot anywhere. And the other mini consoles are not significantly any different (I actually tested my Genesis mini and was going to post that but for brevity edited it out) and it’s in the same 7-8 ballpark. But once other reviews start singling out this mini or certain games as unplayable while others are fine , blaming that on extra lag... I wanted to show that the numbers proved otherwise. Once you call something unplayable vs other games that’s an assertion that should be verified. I honestly expected it to have worse numbers based on all the claims so I was surprised to find otherwise. Again I very much appreciate your thoughtful comment and actually agree that several frames of total lag can effect the experience for some. And it should always be noted which I clearly do. But in the context of mini consoles any I’ve played and tested seem to perform about the same. To single out any one or particular games comes across as sour grapes. And like you rightfully said those sour grapes can spread like wildfire online. Hey did you hear they said game x was unplayable the lag must be terrible. I think I’ll pass. Can’t say how many times I’ve seen that comment directed at this mini. 😢
4 frames lag is a LOT, especially on games that were not using a frame buffer and drawing sprites line by line on a CRT. Then add your 14ms (in fact more since your LCD draws pictures one frame at a time), display lag and you are toast. If you can't figure out that much, I can't help you.
Mathieu Hervais If by a lot you mean the same as all other mini emulators then you’re correct. But I’m not sure what you mean by “you’re toast”? The lag certainly wasn’t enough to keep me from both beating and enjoying those same games that I did on original hardware. Nor enough to keep me from scoring top tier when playing the SB 2min mode, something most can’t even do on a CRT. So I certainly don’t need any help ; ) But it does sound like people calling a game unplayable and blaming it on those few frames of lag could certainly use some.
@@ShmupJunkie by "you are toast" that means you are more likely to get shot and this will deter from the original experience. 4 frames of lag is 60ms, in a shooter that's a lot. There are other solutions than using minis or software based emulation, such as real hardware or FPGA based solutions, which add no lag whatsoever (than whatever the original developers intended), which helps mitigating the existing input lag from your display or your usb controllers (not as fast as the original serial ones). These games were not designed with input lags from software emulators, usb overhead or LCD monitors in mind.
Mathieu Hervais All very fair points and ones I would make myself. I don’t think anyone would argue that an FPGA solution isn’t superior. I own every analogue console and love them to death. Not just for the great performance like you mention but the options you have to tweak your experience. But they are also twice the cost or more. To me the mini is a great plug and play budget system for people who have never tried the games before and want to experience them. I know too many myself that are loving it. So the point isn’t that the mini is as good or superior to anything else. Only that it’s a cool piece for a low price that’s still as well done as I can imagine given the price point. And you can absolutely still have a blast with one as I did. That’s coming from someone who owns and has beaten just about every one of the games on there on the original hardware. It’s not perfect. Not even as good as a better emulator or fpga. But it’s still fun and playable. And I think that’s been the gist of all my videos and reviews so far.
Mathieu Hervais btw just curious I got a huge spike in the video views this hour all of a sudden. Did this get posted somewhere on a site where you saw it? Or did you just come across it in search?
@@ShmupJunkie I just posted it my twitter and the classic gaming discord. Other than that, it's been suggested by UA-cam itself, which is how I came across your video.
At least I can now confirm that I S.U.C at schmups 😂. I just fish NEC hadn't totally botched the European release as I would've adored this console as a kid. I had my master system until the mid 90s. Love the channel, re-watching the older stuff now.
Let me know how you enjoy it. It’s got so many great shmups on there if you like the genre, it’s hard to go wrong. Long as it’s on a decent tv in game mode I’ve loved it.
@@brainbeatuk all mini consoles only output 720p they don’t give you options to change resolution. It does have 4x3 mode it will just put bars or background on the rest of the image. It’s still outputting 720p but the game will be in a 4x3 box. I’d be careful with hdmi to vga adapters a lot of them can add lots of extra delay unless it’s a high end one. You’ll have to experiment. But the output will always be 720p.
@@ShmupJunkie ah ill just put on projector then, them little adapters are pretty much just passthrough devices one I got anyway no audio option ones are OK I think
djf7 Thanks man! It is a lot of work I won’t lie. But it’s been great seeing so many people enjoy the vids. Lemme show ya somethin! 😂 man I loved that show
I caved and bought the PC-Engine Mini. Lords of Thunder plays exactly like it did the last time I played it: like doing a three point turn with a tugboat. When I read/watched reviews and they were talking about it in particular, I was like, “yo, they’re describing Lords of Thunder...period.” And sure enough... Maybe we should make them play with the DuoR/X controller and really give them something to complain about? 😂. My only complaint is the omission of Download, Sylphia and fifty million or so Naxat titles.
Tough but so cool it's easy to replay and try to do better. Some stages are really hard to start on others are easier. I always recommend start on Desert or Water stages they are easier to get through without power ups, which you can buy after you finish a stage with more money.
Great video dude, totally had me in stitches in places. Love the Trump troll! Great testing to prove the point. I desperately want the mini but need to save my pennies, plus I'm having trouble in Europe finding Splatterhouse USA so I'm going Everdrive for now until the right Splatterhouse deal comes my way. It will be mine one day, oh yes... I personally never get the lag arguement because there is always some level of lag, TV, console, game etc. As a gamer you just adapt and overcome, that's part of getting good, is learning the game. I've never once blamed a game for my inability to complete it, I've just accepted some are tougher that others. Really excellent video mate. Keep the good stuff coming. Road to 1k views and totally deserved!
King Lizzard's Game Lounge Road to 1K I like the sound of that haha. Thx man glad you enjoyed it. Some people just want to nitpick things to death instead of tempering their criticism with a realistic perspective. I’m just getting going on some fun ideas for the next vid and it may include popping a few more pimples while I’m at it 😆. You’ll get your Splatterhouse dude only a matter of time. I’m looking forward to you getting the Everdrive so you can properly fire it up.
I sometimes find myself not playing as well when I’m so engrossed in the music I lose focus 😅. Playing it without the sound cranked just isn’t right though.
Oh man an oldie but a goodie. This vid brought out the trolls and it was worth it. I try to make my new vids less salty now but I admit I had fun with this 😅.
Glen Galloway I like it for convenience or to bring over to another home for fun vs dragging any og console around. It’s been useful for that... well not this year 😐
Really Spriggan? So bizarre. I didn't think to test it but I played all the way through it without really noticing anything unusual. Just for the heck of it, next time I'm on the mini I can use my modded controller and see how it is compared to the others. Really cool game too I like Spriggan quite a bit.
4:20 shows that it all adds up. 7 - 8 frames lag on an emulator displaying on a modern tv... How much lag is there on original hardware displaying on a crt screen? Probably only 2-3 frames from the game itsself. Theres around a 5 frame difference between the 2 set ups.. a tenth of a second or so. Dont think thats too much of a deal breaker, but i know i would much rather be playing on what we had back in the day
Without a doubt, few things besides an FPGA like a MiSTer compare to the real thing. I can absolutely feel the difference when playing on my CRT as well. I was mostly pointing out that the lag on Lords was near identical to all the other games on the mini, so it being picked on didn't make sense. They all ran about the same. It's a good entry point for new players and still possible to play and enjoy, see if the games are something they'd like to explore further, but yeah no mini console will compare to the real deal. At least not yet. The real deal breaker is a slow display, as with the 5 or so frames the mini is adding, if you also have a display adding it's own 2-3+ that's going to kill it. It's almost a given these days with the inexpensive emulators that you better have a decent monitor with a frame or less of delay. Otherwise that 6-7 frames becomes 9-10 and at some point it's just too much. I hear you on that.
Sorry, I do my testing with an actual modified controller and an LED, so I can measure the exact input delay versus going by what it "feels" like. There is no problem with my TV and I play my mini consoles just fine. This mini is no different than all the others and I enjoy it quite a bit.
T.M.I. heh heh...That was a funny ass episode of South Park.😂 Thanks for putting in the tedious work of putting those lag disparities to bed! I'll be getting mine soon, so it's cool to know. 👊
DAMAGE INC. oh man I still watch scenes from it now and again it’s classic 😂. I had the idea and just had to run with it. Yeah now it’s finally on US Amazon even more folks will be looking to reviews. Most wont likely find mine but it’s slowly getting out there.
You did your part of putting out the word on the awesomeness of the Turbo mini! The views will come over time & more people will discover what they've been missing... 😮 I'm stoked to get mine in a couple weeks now!
MOXIE channel I agree it’s a banger of a console. And it’s very hard to own and buy games for it. Why I am such a big fan of this mini. Good way for lots of people to try games that are hard to get otherwise.
Very much so. Playing any games especially the older ones with the extra delay from an hdtv usually ruins it. Too bad some TVs don't have very good game modes but most have really improved these last years. I actually talk about it a good bit in my other HDMI input lag video I did.
As much as i want it, im gonna wait till it get's a price drop, i did wit with all my other mini's and bought a refurbished nes and snes instead of a brand new one full price. as for playing turbo games i'll stick to the wii virtual console till the price drop
QuetzalToonart005 The Wii VC games were some really good ports. Soldier Blade plays great on it. If you have one with the wires GameCube ports even better. I’m a fan of the VC games there were some great ports
@@ShmupJunkie Because of the Wii VC and that there was a Bravoman animated short series that came out a few years ago it drove me into buying a trubografx of my own with a pc engine card reader to play games on both systems. sadly i have to deal with using an rf adaptor to play the games its still fun
Tobin Silverweed It’s perfectly fine to suck at a game. I suck at Bomberman and Tetris. But you’re not going out and blaming the lag (I hope 😆). You only get Suckitude points for blaming the game and crying about it online 😁
@@ShmupJunkie yeah I get your point and you're right. After 20 or so times of getting steamrolled on LOT, I'm happy to say that I'm starting to kick all kinds of ass. Just gotta turn up that soundtrack and have fun 🤘🔥
What if the game in itself has always had some lag. If that were the case the added lag would make it more noticable than the others. Lag isn't always an excuse. I'm great at Combat Cars for Genesis, but only on CRT. On the flatscreen I can't beat the 2nd level. I tried a hundred times because I hate the sound CRTs make and rather use a flatscreen. Yet on the CRT I get to level 8+ I try switching back to LCD with no luck. Also there are comments on that game, ppl saying they don't know how they were able to beat the game when they were younger but suck at it now. Well this could explain that since no one has CRT anymore. I rarely use CRT but it helps with certain games. Use it for Halo and youl have a slight advantage over the other players hehe
LightBlue2222 you’re correct in that every game has its own built in lag also. Some more than others it’s normal. Later in my video I measured that lag on original hardware and on a crt. So any emulator is adding its delay on top of the original game. Have you ever checked your lcd tv settings to make sure it’s in Game mode? That also helps a lot so your tv isn’t adding more delay than necessary. It’s not always called game mode every tv is different but there is a setting that can usually enable it.
@@ShmupJunkie Nice. I didn't know about game mode. Mine doesn't have it but I just read up that turning off unnecessary settings helps in the same way. So I'll have to give it a try with dynamic contrast n' such turned off. I didn't realize that could make a difference. Thanks
LightBlue2222 yeah. It’s very rare a tv doesn’t have a game mode of some kind. It’s not always called “game mode” but if it’s a major brand , you should be able to google how to get it going. It adds 3-4 frames of its own easily without the processing disabled for games. I hope you can find it on yours.
Please do a video about input lag on the Switch and it's shmup library, would be fantastic to know how much this is exaggerated because there is a lot of negative talk.
Jan-Niklas Hoffmann That’s a really good idea actually. I’m sure it has to vary game by game since it also depends on that but it would be interesting to compare some. Are there specific games you’ve seen most complaints on? I must have been out of the loop on it as I haven’t run into the videos complaining about it.
@@ShmupJunkie -some of the games that got loads of complaints are the Psikyo collection games (digital/physical collections and individual releases), the Hamster Neo Geo and arcade ports, Rival Megagun and Sisters Royal. ESP.Ra.de, Darius Collection, Thunderforce ports and Danmaku 3 are supposed to be relatively snappy. Some people also say the Switch has a high input lag itself, reacting more laggy when docked. Don't really know what to believe and it bothers me and makes me sad because I have loads of shmups on the Switch...I was playing Dragon Blaze and it didn't feel unplayable at all, but then again I don't really have anything to compare it to. (Haven't played the arcade version).
@@ShmupJunkie here is an example of what I mean...check out the Switch reviews of a) Gunbird b)Psikyo shooting stars Alpha/Bravo, both on 'Nintendolife'. The first review Gunbird doesn't even mention lag and the game gets a solid 8/10. Same site reviews the collections and they score 5/10 because of lag and barebones port. What to believe? Then the Darius Collection gets praised for having 4 frames of lag, but the Hamster ports are trashed for having 5. Seems crazy... As if I could tell 1 frame of lag difference lol my brain has too much input lag already to even process that :-p
Jan-Niklas Hoffmann those are a good place to start thanks 🙏. I’d need to modify a switch controller before I could do it. And you need to measure the original game on its hardware too. Each game has its own delay. So if you really want to know how much just the switch is adding there are multiple factors to test and subtract. Just like in this video I had to test games on original hardware too for comparison. It’s definitely worth doing since it seems to be a big deal. I would just have to start with a collection or something where the original games had a good port elsewhere. Some of the psikyo games seems a good place to start.
Jan-Niklas Hoffmann I don’t expect much out of these big reviews sites honestly. At least for consistency. But I’ll definitely check them out when I’m doing a specific game to see if the claim jives with the results.
haha, well that part doesn't matter. You aren't going online telling everyone the game is unplayable because you can't complete it, so your factor is always Zero. That formula only applies to people having a good or not so good reason to blame the game for their own lack of skill.
I'm just going to say one last thing. I've been thinking about it recently. You clearly understand the concept of lag enough to where you invested in the Leo Bodnar lag tester. Riddle me this, would you personally buy a TV if you knew it had 4 frames of built in latency? Let's say the world was perfect and none of the sources added extra lag outside the internal game lag, would you still buy a TV with 4 frames of lag? Something tells me you wouldn't, so then why do you dismiss 4 frames of latency within the source itself?
charvelgtrs If the TV allowed me to play a set of games I couldn’t otherwise afford to play any other way, absolutely I would. I think the misunderstanding is that I’m dismissing my lag results. I never dismissed the lag I measured saying it was insignificant. I presented it straight up. Never said it was equivalent to a more expensive emulator or other hardware. A few frames is simply what I expect from a budget emulation box. Just like I wouldn’t expect a budget TV to perform like an expensive one, nor would I lambast it for not doing so. Because not everyone can afford a higher end TV. I’d show the numbers straight up and say hey, you can still play games on this TV and if anyone is telling you otherwise, it’s because they’re just not very good at the game. It’s totally playable. Sure this cheaper TV has 2 more frames of delay than the pricier one, but it’s what I’d expect at the price and I can still enjoy games on it. If you’ve seen any of my other vids on this mini that’s pretty much what I say. So to answer your question, yes if that tv was unique somehow and fit something I could use in one of my rooms, I’d buy it. Would I be replacing my OLED with one? No. But I’d gladly recommend it to anyone that’s on a budget and tell them it’s a nice set that I also tried and can enjoy playing on. And if someone crapped all over it saying how games on it are unplayable, I would tell them to stop blaming the tv for sucking at the game. Pretty much what I did here. Sorry for the longish reply but I hope that shows my perspective on this. Your question was sincere and respectful so it deserved a proper answer.
-=tAz=- lords is a bit unique for pc engine shooters your character actually moves a bit slower than normal compared to faster paced games like soldier blade and Gradius.
Finally ! I was surprised by the the complaints, i played all these games hundreds of times the last 30 years and found the mini to have the most accurate emulator for the pce
sam Lepirate I agree the lag is there like other mini units, but the emulation is accurate and plays like the originals. It’s not for everyone but people complaining about certain games says more about them than the mini or emulation quality.
vanguardcat I’m so glad you reposted I felt so bad! The original poster you commented on deleted their comment so yours and my replies were erased. I had my reply all written out and then it wouldn’t let me post because it was gone 🤦♂️. Luckily I made a copy of it on my phone 😁. So here was my reply to your very thoughtful comments by the way 👍🏻 “Not at all I appreciate the thoughtful comment and discussion. I wasn’t expecting to post a lag test video without the methodology being questioned. Most comments will be misinformed to the point where I can’t take the time to educate or correct every one of them so I don’t. But when someone is knowledgeable and has a valid point I can only welcome it. Anything less makes one a hypocrite. Next time I do a lag comparison I may very well note your point and make sure I credit you for it! While subtracting that half frame may not effect any notable results I’m all for furthering important discussions. And I’ll bet if I did there would be plenty of people in the opposite camp to call me out on not using the center method as it’s the “standard” common practice. 🤷♂️😆 And it’s the main reason I do as well. But you point out very well the common misconception between actual display lag and the time to draw the frame on screen”
@@ShmupJunkie Ah thank you! nevermind, knowing the original poster a bit I'm not surprised he did that lol. Anyway your method is by default better than all the approximations around since you care to compare against the original hardware(s). The little problem we were discussing although minor (well, not so minor in cases as I explained before JJ erased my post, you know, thresholds blah blah) can only be 'fixed' through communication if people start to take note of it here and there, so the knowledge spreads and hopefully some day wins againsts the widespread misconception-confusion. Of course I'll be happy if you mention that in your videos or elsewhere in the future, no need to credit me I'm just a passerby, only the facts and accuracy matter for the sake of the general (and sorry I know this is Google/YT which is a lot about popularity, but everywhere things are technical, popular so easily becomes the enemy of correct). That said thanks again for the useful video. Man I wish my Mini would arrive already *sigh*.
vanguardcat I’m new here so not too familiar with JJ, but his original comment made little sense and I called them out on it. So they chose to delete it 🤷♂️. I realize my review comes across a bit harsh I swear I’m not so bad in real life lol, but I felt the need as I thought the several places I saw claiming these things were doing the mini an injustice. As opposed to the horrendous crt filter which I myself ripped into in my original vid that most outlets just gave a pass. 🤷♂️ But regardless I’m glad to meet good folks on here willing to have a proper discussion and that can teach me some things as well. I may get a bit “salty” in the vids for fun and views but I’ll never shut down a legit convo in the comments.
Superdimensional I’ve seen a good several folks parroting the same info so I wasn’t going to single anyone out. I just wanted to set the record straight and provide some good data. And of course have some fun with it 😅. But in regards to Chris his measurements were fine and pretty much in line with mine. So I’ve got no bones with him he actually went and measured something instead of just saying this feels good, this feels bad. It’s the people that are misinterpreting his data that’s the big issue. Them assuming lords is numerically worse because it “feels” worse and they can’t play it is the problem. Now you’re blaming your lack of skill on the hardware and complaining about it online when the numbers don’t bear out that assumption.
Shmup Junkie yep exactly and when in other videos they say the all too common “I didn’t have this console back in the day” well then how are you an eye ball expert?
This Kind of reminded me of the PS1 classic and Tekken 3, everybody complained about it. They basically tore the thing apart because of Tekken 3 not running at 60fps, Yet I beat Tekken 3 over 3 times on the PS Classic in a single day without feeling like it was slowed down or unplayable. The PS Classic mini was a good console, It just wasn't what everybody expected. But we learned quickly that was because there were remastered versions of the Activision titles released on PS4 in the months/years following. So ideally the purpose of it was to release games that otherwise will absolutely never get re-released, like Destruction Derby and Jumping Flash, and the PS1 version of Rainbow Six.
That's a great analogy! Tekken 3 and Tag are a couple of my favorite fighting games and I own them, so I never even tried it on the classic. I still have the rhythm for it even if I don't play it as often. I would be curious to try it. Bad controllers give me more fits in a fighting game than lag or fps. Like a move I can pull off almost every time, but with a different Dpad, it just doesn't freakin work half the time. And I start thinking I've totally lost it. But then I go back to an original PS controller vs a knock off and it starts working almost every time. I'm glad I did grab a ps1 classic when I did given how nice of an emulation platform it has become too for the other games.
The 50 hz PAL versions of many of the games, $100 price tag, bland interface, & relatively weak game list were the PS mini's biggest offenses. Upgrading the system with AutoBleem, USB memory stick, OTG adaper, 8BitDo dongle, & any bluetooth controller make it my favorite mini console. I still want the TG-16 & CoreGrafx minis, though.
The audio lag bothers me way more than the input lag. I consider it largely unforgivable they major companies with these supposedly talented people at ME can't synchronize the audio and video, yet people working on retroarch (for free) can.
The audio lag is nearly unnoticeable, at least to me, when playing shooters with everything going on. But you're right it's noticeable much more in platformers and other games like platformers where you can more clearly see sounds happen after actions. I'm not sure where the challenge comes in, but I doubt it's a matter of being lazy. Retroarch and PC emulators have the benefit of powerful processing on modern computers, while these mini systems have to be produced cheap on a budget, with a processor that likely costs less than $35. I remember it's an issue that the genesis mini had too. If I was interviewing them, that would definitely be a question I asked, as you know members of the team have an answer, but the question was never directly asked.
@@ShmupJunkie I have extensive experience modding the Genesis Mini and S/NES Classics and installing retroarch on them in place of the stock emulator slightly improves input lag and dramatically improves sound lag (to a point of being negligible). But I wholeheartedly agree with you that if you're good enough at these games, you can generally overcome input lag. Unless we're taking about something like Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! or other twitch-speed games.
... there IS awful input lag though. Christ smh, hell I play on a Raspberry pi and its nowhere near as bad as the mini. And it's also obviously emulation. The input lag isnt the only problem, the audio lag and horrible video shimmer is MUCH worse. The input lag IS most definitely there. But I wouldn't say its unbearable... however they shouldn't be getting a pass with this release,
Lovelorn88 Nick I would never argue there isn’t lag... my own measurements of 7-8.5 frames of which 3.5-5 come from the mini show it for all to see. The real question is... is it worse than the other mini consoles? I tested my Genesis mini to compare and got similar numbers. Just was beyond the scope of this video to post. I haven’t tested every mini but I wouldn’t be surprised to see little variance between them. Mini consoles aren’t for everyone. But if someone is going to complain that a game is unplayable compared to others I’ll want to see some tests to back it up. Otherwise it’s sour grapes
@@ShmupJunkie hmm. I might be taking your video abit to personal then. I posted on a few FB groups that I was very disappointed with the Turbografx mini and how it has not so good emulation. And they people on fb have been replaying with a link to your video say that I probably just suck at the game LOL. I dont talk much about the other minis because I wasnt nearly as hyped as I was for the Turbo mini 'turbografx was my first introduction to gaming' So far I've had 3 people link your video to me and say *the emulation is fine you just suck* lol some even called me a boomer 🤣😂🤣 when my main gripe is the God awful audio lag and screen shimmer. Mostly apparent with R-Type with the screen shimmer But yeah. Unfortunately none of the minis have great emulation,
Lovelorn88 Nick 🤣 this little video is getting around. I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t glad that it may be helping just a tiny bit to balance some of the negativity out there on this mini. It was part of the reason I set out to make these reviews. As I think there is a difference between being critical and overly harsh. It is a $99 mini box after all. And I think the overall experience of it is wonderful despite the typical flaws you get with a mini. I’m not alone in that assertion as even the reviews that unfairly label LoT as unplayable had an overall quite positive impression of this mini as a whole. That being said it’s still important to be critical of things that could have been done better, like the shimmer on some games you mentioned. In my first part 1 vid I ripped into the terrible crt filter which I personally find more disappointing than some audio delay which I rarely notice especially on a shooter. If we don’t critique we don’t get better product in the future. Your points on the shimmer are valid as it’s something that could have been done better and I fully planned to mention it when I get to those parts of my reviews on it. In fact upcoming hacks may prove it can be fixed. I more take issue with anyone throwing the baby out with the bath water. For me those things don’t ruin the experience nor does the typical mini lag make anything unplayable. Thus my video taking some folks to task about calling it that as it says more about them than the console. But simply pointing out issues is part of the critique and your points are valid. I think for most, including myself, they are minor in the grand scheme of an overall great package. So in my earlier vids I point out that despite the minor flaws, imo of course, this mini is a can’t miss for me. And I spend more time focusing on my favorite games and aspects themselves vs harping on the issues... but they should still be mentioned and put into perspective. No doubt.
@@ShmupJunkie yeah, for me the audio lag was a big one. I noticed it especially with Bonk Revenge. When playing on the Mini then going to the Raspberry pi it made the mini feel like emulation and the Pi feel like hardware LOL. I feel pointing out these issues are really needed! But unfortunately when I do this I get told I suck and linked to your video LMFAO. buuuuut that's the nature of things, I dont believe your video was meant to be used as such Also Lords Of thunder is just as playable as it is on the pi lol. 'I dont own a Turbografx CD' but I will say the audio lag or delay was annoying. Input lag is ever so noticeable much more then it was for me on the pi. But definitely NOT unplayable
Lovelorn88 Nick I’m only in one Turbo fb group I know of so I’m not in the loop on some of the others. Definitely wasn’t my intention that anyone who has a valid issue with the mini that they suck lol. In fact not being good at the game doesn’t make you suck either that would be a crappy thing to say. My suck was reserved for people not being able to play and then complaining about it online or in videos. I’ve got my gripes too I just like it for what it is. You’ve given me something I’d like to test though. I’d like to see if I can run a test on how many ms of audio delay exists between the action and sound. And if that delay also exists on real hardware and if so how much. I have a suspicion but the numbers will tell the story. It could be that it’s in fact far worse. I’m just not willing to make that claim by ear and want to see what I get.
This is a compound problem. First, you yourself say you add 3-4 frames of lag to the game, PLUS, you are using HDMI (that's at least another frame added) AND the lag that most TVs have, it gives a total of at least 5-6 frames of lag minimum, and with bad TVs, even more. My 47 inch TV adds like 100 ms of lag even in game mode by HDMI, most of it goes away with an HDMI to VGA adapter. So, there you go, you have games that are very sensitive to lag (unlike most modern games), with lag from the emulation, the crappy emulation that adds to the emulation on pc, plus the HDMI lag, plus the tv lag. And this is someone that was raised playing the Nemesis/Gradius on the MSX. I can play them on bluemsx on my pc, the emulation is good and the monitor has very little lag.
You probably noticed in my video that I provided the complete numbers as well including every component in the chain. Including my display.Without a doubt using a poor display with poor scaling would make it even worse. And you're correct that using a good PC for emulation is very different as it has a lot better performance so it would have less lag as well. 100ms of lag for a TV is massive I would imagine any game would be hard to play on that. If your lag goes away when using a VGA adapter into your display (that's pretty rare for a TV to still have vga), then it's the HDMI input board and processing that is creating all that lag, not the HDMI cable itself. That is the one item you are mistaken. A standard HDMI cable, or any cable in itself, provides no delay as it travels, for all intents and purposes, at the speed of an electrical charge. HDMI cables that have additional scaling/processing built in, like those cheap gaming cables are another story. But just a run of the mill cable adds nothing and I've yet to see a single technical article that shows otherwise. This is coming from someone that does Pro AV for a living. The HDMI transport at the source and TV, and the processing is a different story. But a regular cable itself has no lag. If your TV plays better over VGA, it's your VGA input that has faster/better processing than it's HDMI input so you are seeing much better performance. Which makes sense. But it's not the actual cable unless the cable is faulty. That's not including that your HDMI to VGA converter/scaler is also adding delay, but likely less than the poor HDMI processing on the TV. So you are seeing an improvement.
Thanks for the answer. HDMI DOES provide with input lag vs a CRT, precisely ONE frame of input lag, that is the nature of HDMI, you have to send the whole image at once. That's the minimum I can get my MiSTer FPGA running in my gaming monitor. That lag (tiny, but it still exists) is gone while playing on CRT. Same with USB, it also adds some lag, best case scenario, with 1000 hz polling and no lag controller, it's 1ms, usually 3-10 ms. The thing is, if you add up everything, you get lag, and that sometimes is enough to not avoid the bullet that was going for you. Of course, you have to play a lot the games in order to get good, but one thing doesn't cancel the other.
@@ShmupJunkie See, that's what I mean about people trusting myths collected on the internet rather than pure science, out of who knows where ppl just state popular generalties like 'HDMI has 1 frame of lag', 'most TVs lag anyway', 'flat panels frame drawing time is lag crts don't have', 'upscaling, or low specs, or my gamepad's religion, the ambient temperature, whatever...adds lag' etc, while even test reviews show them that's definitely wrong or far from being always true and there's science to demonstrate, with proper testing devices and software just in front of their eyes telling them each case individually. It's the problem with the internet; people produce pharaonic amounts of sensational BS which is so easy for them to repeat, but extremely tedious for anyone to refute to prove it's indeed BS, that's called the bullshit asymmetry principle or 'Brandolini's Law, and usually makes the poor individual who tries hard to defend the truth extremely unpopular. :D
vanguardcat I had to look up Brandolini thanks for that bit of humor. This whole thing reminds me of the old myth busters show. They seemed to do alright 😎. Now you’ve got me thinking about doing a myth busting episode on all these things haha. I only fear for the time expenditure in the comments section afterward. And it’s not like a lot of these things haven’t been addressed and tested before just maybe not in a video format. But I’ve got a ton hardware to do it being in AV, so maybe it’s something that would be fun to attempt as a series of episodes each focusing on a topic. And I could certainly have some fun with it. But ultimately I’d want to do it right with proper research so maybe it could prove useful over time. When it comes up in arguments online one could just link to a video 🤷♂️.
vanguardcat as an aside I’ve been following the RetroRGB channel for years now. I appreciate a lot of his technical stuff. I’m not always on board with some of the elitism I see coming out of that community, as was obvious by the snobbery you see in many lag discussions and the discounting of solutions that don’t live up to their most stringent of standards. But I appreciate a lot of the detail that comes out of it, even if I don’t always agree with the interpretation of the data afterward.
Yeah i just got mine recently and big time lag, on all the games i hope there can be an update to fix this. Meantime I'm gonna just use my duo rx. The original is better anyway
I would be willing to bet your display is adding a lot of that lag you are feeling on the mini which has been really common. I've had many others come to me later and say they tried it on a better performing TV and it made a big difference. I've had no problems playing through most of the games on the mini, but my display adds less than a frame in my setup. Of course nothing compares to the original I still love playing on my Duo as well. But the mini is nice for people who can't afford the real deal and don't want to mess with emulating on their computer. Don't expect a fix at any point, it's a limitation of the cheaper hardware. The Genesis mini is the same way. The mini consoles always add a few frames of delay it's just how they are.
@@ShmupJunkie yeah maybe I'll try my other TV to see if there is a difference. I Also have an 8 series samsung so I'll try it out after the Clippers game and after I watch my bengals play! Lol
@@ShmupJunkie also bonks revenge is bad i can't even jump on the spring flower! Unless i got the turbo switches up its so bad. The bonus stages are impossible
JAKESTEED I used to watch the Bengals when Palmer was at QB I followed him from when he left SC as I’m from CA. Just make sure the Game Mode on the TV is on and the auto motion plus is turned off. Those cause the most delay for games. It definitely helps if you didn’t do that already anyway.
As an owner of the original hardware that I've played for years on a regular TV I was REALLY disappointed with the lag of shooters (R-Type and Lords of Thunder) when I got my Mini a couple days ago. They were indeed unplayable. My heart sank. Then I crossed my fingers and hoped it was extra lag because of using default HDTV settings instead of a Game Mode, since it probably doesn't put out the auto low latency request like the newer systems do. Also turned off my AV sync compensation - WAY better! Lag practically eliminated! I highly suspect those having the issue were getting over 100ms latency like I did by not using game mode. For me, it was my first experience with retro gaming on an HDTV, so I didn't know any better. Thought I'd share it.
Studio Nu Thanks for sharing that and you’re absolutely right. Game mode is essential so the TV doesn’t add its own few frames of lag on top of an emulator like a mini already adding a few. Sure it’s still not like playing on real hardware or a higher end emulator, but like you said it still feels good and is a lot of fun. I felt the same way.
Even with game mode turned on you are still getting at least 4+ frames of lag. The best TVs out there can hit about 11ms of latency and PC Monitors around 9ms, but you still can't fix those 4 frames over original hardware.
@@charvelgtrs which seems not so bad if you don't own a crt and /or original hardware
I had the same experience but I had already watched the video prior to purchasing the mini.
It was actually worse than I thought it would be in normal mode but after switching to game mode it worked just fine!
@@ShmupJunkie Do you know where I could look for a TV with a good game mode? I'm not exactly sure what to look for and don't want to spend money on something that might not perform well.
You are on top of your shit and I love it. Example at the 3 minute mark when you displayed the tv settings. You made sure to put "Game Mode On" because you already know if you didn't put that people would have been asking 🙌. You're a natural.
Oh I still got plenty of trolls unhappy with my results and I took them on as they came 🤣. I’m normally not this sour in any videos but all the input lag mini BS was on my nerves and it had to be done. Game mode is a big one. It’s obvious if you are in the know but I can’t tell you how many comments and people I’ve come across that complain about it but didn’t know. Then they turn it on and suddenly all is well. I did a good HDMI lag video not long after that was well received. That’s another one of those I can’t believe I need to make a video about this kind of things 🤣. But it was fun.
I was playing lords of Thunder on the mini and I have to agree, it felt similar to the other games and was an enjoyable experience. Glad I finally picked one up!
That's awesome then I am glad you did too. I originally made these series of turbo mini reviews to help show people what they are missing by listening to a lot of the negativity that was out there at the time. And I think it influenced a lot of them to give it a shot. Not one has ever come back and complained it wasn't worth it, but too many to count have come back saying how great the games were and thankful they got one. It's how I started my channel and am glad I did.
LORDS is kicking my ass on the MINI, I dont remember it being that hard 25 years ago. Either its LAG or memory lapse
wish i had seen this video when you released it. im ordering tg16 mini right now. talk about late to the party but better late than never. love your channel bro!
Was a much smaller channel back then so it was hard to get noticed, but this vid definitely made it's rounds and ruffled some feathers. 😅 I'm glad you're finally getting one and my PCE vids were a part of it. There are some killer shooters on that system it's totally worth it, let alone the other games too.
@@ShmupJunkie yeah i grew up with turbo duo. i was the one kid that had one in my area. your story of the cybercore competition is epic man. you earned your tgcd.
That suc equation is pure sarcastic genius! Great video and well needed.
Ha, I wasn't sure if people were still finding this old video and test. It was early days and I was playing a salty bastard, but it was fun making that. I definitely had some laughs coming up with it and left that on my white board for a while.
Yet another excellent video. Thanks for the time and effort you are putting nto these 👍
RetroHeed Thanks 😊 bud. Lots of time and effort but it seems to be jazzing up the community so it’s been very worth it.
You know what else makes the game laggy? Your tv/display! When I initially hooked up my CoreGrafx mini and played Salamander and Ninja Garden, I immediately noticed a fair to moderate amount of input lag. Turns out I had to adjust my LCD TV settings to Game mode and that made all the difference. The games became playable again! You did an awesome job on this video! Cheers my friend!
retroyanx Yeah dude Game Mode is a requirement on any lcd to be able to play. Otherwise it’s adding all kinds of processing designed for tv and film sources. Also I’ve never heard of this Ninja Garden but it sounds amazing 😂 I’d play that.
@@ShmupJunkie its an obscure port , only available in Malaysia ... friggin autocorrect
Okay, I got my SNES classic and the Sega Genesis mini on my TV that have game mode. I have to turned on so I can have a good experience with no input lag, correct.
Man, you got me into this game and I love it. Interesting video.
Lol yeah this video was a product of it’s time. I wonder how relevant it still is anymore or if I even keep it up, but at the time it caused quite a stir and some heated comments. It served its purpose though and I had fun with that formula after lol
@Shmup Junkie - I recently purchased a PC Engine mini running on a CRT monitor using the $15 HDMI to VGA converter suggested by @The Electric Underground in one of his vids. I found it plays really well input wise- been grinding on Lords of Thunder and thought it was worth mentioning.
I'll bet it does, the benefit of no added delay from a monitor is nice. I've never tried that adapter but I know the video and one Mark reviewed. Glad you're enjoying Lords it's a killer game. You'll clear it soon enough if you stay on it. I pretty much use the Earth armor exclusively it's by far the most powerful once over a certain power level. Probably the easiest to clear the game with.
Great content. Keep it up bud!
The equation was funny as hell. I was inundated with comments about the lag from "qualified" people, when I first posted a video about the TG16 Mini. I am not susceptible to lag anyway, so I joked about it on stream. This little console is great. It has now become one of my favorites.
I hear ya and not surprised at all. That was my beef, the flooding of trolls with useless perspectives based on little but hearsay. Even though this video showed exactly how much lag the mini has, pretty much the same as any other mini, I wanted to show the facts but also expose the silliness of all the reactions. And the South Park formula seemed the best way to do it. 😂
Great video! Only down side was the system is hard enough to find with everyone ragging on it over the supposed lag. Now that the truth is getting out there, it's gonna be even harder to find.
spriles the US launch was definitely a botch job. I was pretty bummed about it. Now it’s finally out there and I hope they can produce enough. These minis shouldn’t be overpriced collectors items they’re meant for more people to be able to try the games. So I’m hoping more do get made.
Glad to see someone else who appreciates how killer Vizio is at getting low display lag out of their TVs and monitors!
Absolutely. They’ve come a long way from the cheap entry level sets they were originally known for. The only knock against my model is that low latency input won’t do 4K it’s 1080p only. But for my retro purposes it’s perfect.
Very late - but after watching these above and beyond vidz - i'm gonna go ahead and pick up one of these Minis - exciting coz a lot/most of these games will be new to me.
✌
You’re in luck as I’ve been seeing them back in stock just recently on Play Asia and some other spots. So you should be able to grab one without over paying. And I have no doubt you’ll enjoy some of the great games on there. These mini videos were how I started my channel over a year ago!
Awesome video. I want to buy one but I’m not certain as to whether or not the lag (as minuscule as it may be) would bother me or not. Also what game was that song at the end of the video from?
I wouldn't say the lag is miniscule... it's pretty moderate and in line with other mini consoles. Like you said, it's a matter if you can adjust to it or not like many do. I made this one a long time ago but if I remember right, the song was from Air Zonk.
I bought the Core Grafx Mini in the prime day sale. Got to say I absolutely love it. Initially I was put off by the negative reviews, I'm glad I bought it and tried it out for myself.
That's great to hear. And honestly what I get mostly. People glad they got it and love it. Big part of why I made my set of mini reviews.
The effort put in this video shows the passion you have for the pc engine. I had a feeling the input lag wasn’t as bad as people were saying. Your right once someone with a lot of followers makes a bold statement like that it spreads around like a rumour. Great video and thanks for clearing up the mini’s name. Can’t wait to get mine.
The Nerd Nest TV Thanks again I do appreciate the great feedback. And based on my numbers the lag is surely there. Dealing with 7-8 total frames is nothing to scoff at. And that’s with a fast display like mine. But so are the other minis so this one is no outlier. The big thing was that all the games test so close to each other, that calling out any one as far worse is odd. With all the time you’ve spent now playing lords will be curious to hear your thoughts when you do finally get the mini to try it on.
Shmup Junkie In my opinion when it comes to emulation on a mini you have to expect a tiny bit of input lag. It won’t be exactly how it is on a CrT on Original Hardware, however it’s still very much playable. Heck I beat Skyblzer on SNES a while ago on a Retron 5 and it had a tiny bit and it was a action platformer. Bottom line is we can all adapt.
The Nerd Nest TV well most of us can adapt. The rest call it unplayable 😆
Loved the headbanging and the formula. I didn’t get the mini as i have an actual pce to a crt tv (with ssd3 which i saw attached to your super gfx in another video) and i think mister plays some great pce too. But very cool to hear a different opinion on this matter. With actual proof. I did get few mini’s (pre mister...and well as ninty kid i wanted them for collector purposes as well :) )but def did feel lag using wireless pad. But good old bluetooth ;) buying 2.4ghz only now, but will always prefer wired for my twitch gaming needs! Looking forward to more vids sir!
Thanks. Yeah one of these days I need to bring the head banging back for a cameo in the newer videos when it's the right time. Without a doubt the way you're playing is ideal, I have a similar setup. But it sure isn't cheap or easy to do. I have been playing with the Mister lately as well and it works great for PCE so far. The mini was like an inexpensive way for many people to discover the games that don't have the means to play them another way, aside from emulated on a computer with something like Retroarch. And it actually brought a lot of new people into the PCE world. I had tons of friends who loved it, emulated or not. So I was a bit tired of it getting crapped on and wanted to do this. This is probably the saltiest I've ever gotten in any of my videos. 😅
Thank you for doing this!!! I have heard about the lag in Lords of Thunder ever since the mini system was released and heard multiple you tubers (many of whom I like) blast that game in particular as unplayable while some of them blasted the whole console. I think Turbo16 Mini is EXCELLENT! I never even heard of the console as a kid and I think the Turbo Mini is an outstanding way for someone like me to get a chance to experience how awesome this console and games were.
So for me with no prior experience playing Lords, I thought the game played very well and couldn't understand what could be different in the original version using original hardware and I thank you for confirming that this console has no more lag than any of the others.
You’re welcome and I’m glad you found this old video and enjoyed it. These original mini videos were the reason I started my channel in the first place. To not believe the bad press and give the games a shot and enjoy them. All mini consoles have a good bit of lag compared to original hardware but these games are all still fun and casually playable. Time has proven me right as this mini is now long sold out and will only get even more expensive. I’m glad you grabbed one before it was too late!
I don't know I'm not trying to pick a fight but I am considerably better on authentic original hardware then I am through emulation on the mini. Should also be noted that original hardware is played on a CRT not HDMI
No you’re totally correct. Original hardware is clearly more responsive and the crt adds no input delay unlike an hdmi display. I can absolutely feel the difference too and prefer playing that way too. This testing was more about showing the delay on this mini was pretty much identical to all other minis and that all the games were nearly identical in their response. And yes it’s very possible to adjust to it and still enjoy the games and play them well. So it was more about debunking a lot of the nonsense info going around back when I made the video. But I wouldn’t begrudge you or anyone for preferring to play on a crt with original hardware. Heck I certainly do too. I just try to see the $99 minis for what they are and not have unrealistic expectations. A lot of fun can be had on them but they’re certainly no replacement for real hardware or something like a MiSTer. I’m with you there.
I just picked up a PC Engine mini. I also have the Neo Geo X. Both r giving me lag. I have no game mode on my Mitaubishi HD TV. Any advice of settings I should be looking for to minimize the lag?
By nature, the mini consoles all have more lag than original hardware. The minis are all in the 5-7 frame range depending on the games, so you can't change that part. But the TV itself adds the rest. Some TVs have more than others. Each one is different but it sounds like you have game mode covered. The older flat screens especially had quite a bit versus many newer models, adding 2-3 frames of their own. But the only settings you can change is on the TV itself, the mini is fixed. Wish I could help more but I'd need to know the exact TV as they are all different.
Great vid, can't wait to get my Core mini should be with me 27th😀
jamiewalton666 soooon 😁 you can finally blame dying in LoT on the lag too 😆 jk. I’m excited for you to get yours.
@@ShmupJunkie 😀😀😀
I think you're onto something with the suckitude coefficient. There might also be an an extra factor with older gamers who can't come to terms with their memories of how good thy believe they were in the 80s and 90s when they had 12 year old reflexes and no pesky job sucking up their time compared to the reality of how far their skills have eroded due to slowing reflexes and the man keeping them down at their daily 9 to 5.
I’m one of those older gamers I wish my reflexes are what they used to be. I could just pick up any new shmup and blow through it in a weekend. It just takes more time and practice now like an older bball player that has to adjust their game when they can’t dunk from the free throw line anymore 😅. But we certainly don’t blame the game for not being as good. That always trips me out. I honestly had way too much fun making that skit. I was watching that episode of South Park and had a Eureka moment 😆
Still, if the original input lag of the game is more than doubled (and it is), this is not a small matter.
Quake 3(etc.) players consider framerate less than 120 to be unsuitable for competitive gaming.
thumb up just for the dance :)
Hello Shmup Junkie. Greetings and felicitations from the explosive woods of Austria. It would be great, if you made those tests with the Turbo Tap connected to see if that added additional lag. And if the 8Bitdo wireless ones added to the lag or helped with it. TNX for at least considering.
Hey! Cool to know I have some good people watching from Austria and Germany. I was born in Moscow so I have European roots as well. I did recently get a turbo tap and do have the wireless 8bit do controllers to test. I don't think the wireless will be faster because it's not a direct connection to the mini, it connects to a USB adapter plugged into the same control port. So it would either be almost identical, or a little slower. But I would find out when I test it. I don't have an 8bitdo modified yet to test it. I would be surprised if the turbotap added delay, as it's just a usb hub which normally do not add enough to notice, but it is possible if it's a poor design. When I do get a chance to test those things, I will definitely post about it.
Thank you for this video. I was on the fence. With a little bit of save state practice over the last 2 days, I just 1LC'd Blazing Lazers. I'm not a shooter god either(save state practice is awesome, you get to learn the stages fully powered up to learn for the main run). I am VERY lag sensitive. I have a 65" Samsung q80t, and if there was bad lag, there would be no WAY for me to do that lol. Thanks!
You’re welcome. And it’s not like mini consoles don’t have lag. Many consider 6+ frames a lot in total. I just personally had no issue with it they all felt very playable to me. But more importantly Lords of Thunder wasn’t any different than all the other games I tested. So people that were complaining that one game had worse lag than the others were full of it. It’s just likely the physics of that game that made it feel more noticeable to them, but the actual delay was the same. I’m really glad you’re enjoying these great games on it and didn’t let the fake news ruin that experience for you.
@@ShmupJunkie honestly, it's likely worse for those that have a ton of PC Engine experience. I don't have any of these games committed to muscle memory yet.
I've hooked my PCE mini and my Hyperspin emulation PC to my TV and compared lag on both. I noticed the lag on Lords of Thunder was considerably worse on the PCE mini. I don't have the fancy frame counting devices but the difference is real. Same TV in game mode, both PCE mini and PC going through HDMI, definitely more lag on LOT on PCE mini.
RyuHayabusa06 without a doubt you’re right a dedicated pc will run games with less delay. Not sure which pc you are using but you’re talking about an intel Core processor and a few hundred bucks or more vs an inexpensive $99 all in one unit, so it should definitely not run more than a couple frames delay vs the 3-5 you’ll get from the cheaper mini. That makes total sense. I’m actually not sure what processor the mini runs but I’m sure it’s nowhere near what you have in the PC running hyperspin.
@@ShmupJunkie Why would that make a difference? I've been using emulation PCs for maybe 12-13 years of differing processing power though HDMI and never experienced the kind of lag I'm seeing on Lords on the PCE mini. The lag shouldn't have anything to do with CPU power. I'm not experiencing that problem on any games on the SNES or Genesis minis.
@@RyuHayabusa06 over 3 frames of lag is no small matter, but this is not the worst you can get from those emulator boxes. Far from the worst, I think.
@@RyuHayabusa06 A shot in the dark but set the dedicated pc to run at the same resolution the pc engine runs at. Some tvs add lag if running at 720p or less.
Hahahaha I love the slowdown in the intro already 😂😂😂🤘🙌
Mark M 😂 oh just wait til I get to my South Park rip haha. Once I got the idea I couldn’t help myself as I love that episode.
@@ShmupJunkie 😂😂
I think the real problem with these “show and tell” reviewers is that that have no concept of what it was like growing up with this console in the first place. Anyone can pick up a turbo mini and do a review, but when you actually bought Lords of thunder back in the day, when you used your hard earned money to buy this game, you better believe you sat down and you put hours into it. You are doing a great job on the show preaching the truth, and sometimes the truth hurts. So stop being babies and put some time into the machine before you do your reviews.
Brian Thomas Barnhart Some of the reviews I’ve seen are by folks who seem to know and played the games too at a younger age. Which perplexes me cause I had no issue playing Lords specifically. But hey to each their own. I respect if someone has trouble with a game and can’t seem to play it with some extra lag for whatever reason. But when they single a certain game out as worse than others all the minions come out to spread the word like gospel. And it’s spreading an opinion at best and misinformation at worst. I actually had a good bit more content and stuff tested but had to edit for brevity. I may throw things in here and there from it in future stuff. I think I got my point across 😂
I bought a Turbo Duo and Lords of Thunder new from TZD back in the 90s. I've played on original hardware. I have an emulation PC running Hyperspin as well as the PCE mini. Both hooked up through HDMI to the same TV in game mode, the lag is far worse on the PCE mini on Lords. It's not a conspiracy.
RyuHayabusa06 I don’t think anyone said it’s a conspiracy. The PCE mini adds 3-5 frames of lag while your other PC and anything more powerful likely half of that or less. Original hardware even less of course. However I can tell you that I measured my Genesis mini objectively with the same tests and it’s delay is nearly the same to this mini. Maybe you don’t notice it with the types of games but it’s there. Never tested the snes mini yet. Note also in my video that I tested lots of games and they pretty much all had near the same delay as each other. There is nothing unique about LoT vs the others and it’s delay isn’t noticeably worse than Bonk or Soldier Blade. In fact you saw in my video that Blade had the worst measurements of all yet it still seems to play fine. If it “feels” different that comes down to how the game plays. And likely the extra lag contributes to that. I can “feel” the difference too vs playing on my original hardware. So you’re not hallucinating there is a difference vs a faster emulator. I can still play it just fine after a few minutes of adjusting to it.
@@RyuHayabusa06I'm kind of having the same experience. I am considerably better on original equipment and original hardware on a CRT than I am through the mini on HDMI
LOL I love the formula... I think the answer is that people forgot or been out of practice... when I had my PC-Engine GT I also owned a copy of Gunhed which I think is called Blazing Lasers in Turbografx side... (by the way the game has nothing to do with the Gunhed movie which was sort of low budget awesome) I finished the entire game when I was a teen... I had my GT upgraded last year new caps and newer higher definition screen and well I suck at Gunhed. Maybe made it to level 3... but it's been more than 20 years since I played it hard core... i assume it's will be the same for Lord of Thunder and other schmups
I always have a harder time playing shmups on the portable too, in general I can only do so well. But you're right on, people are out of practice with old games they used to play. I can't just pick up many old shooters I used to finish and instantly smoke them. Without a doubt there's extra delay on the mini, but it's not so bad you can't even enjoy the game unless you're trying to play on some super hard mode. It normally just has an acclimation period and you get used to how it responds. Lords isn't a particularly hard game in general once you figure it out, I would say finishing Gunhed toward the end can be more challenging and less forgiving.
Love the approach you took to this. You'd think the bigger channels with hundreds of thousands of subscribers would take the time to test things this thoroughly, but I'm glad you did! Subbed ☺
JohnnyGrafx Thanks! And glad you found my channel as I didn’t know yours. Just subbed back and will check out some vids. Cybercore was the game that won me a turbo cd back in the day so lots of nostalgia value there. Glad you liked the vid I put a good bit of time into it. Look forward to checking out some of yours.
This was fantastic to watch, brother! Way to stick it to them. ✊🏽😤 It's sure to ruffle some feathers but the truth needs to be out there and you did it with humor, style and with fairness, too. Once again, we really appreciate the love and effort you're pouring into these videos!
EZ Peezy Thank you man I appreciate the support and that you’re enjoying these. I hope if anyone guilty of some of the things I mentioned ever does see this that they can self reflect and do better instead of just being upset at getting called out on something.
it depend of your lcd too. some lcd have more input lag than other. if you have the habits to use the original console with crt tv you feel the input lag more. 4-5frame of lag in a shmup it's a lot
sdekaar you’re right 100% agree on the tv. Some people that complain have a tv adding lots of extra display lag. I did not expect to be able to score so well on soldier blade on the mini with 7-8 frames but it honestly was good to play. So I was wrong. I thought I would suck in the 2 min but I didn’t 😆
I've just moved from an LCD that was adding around 4 frames of lag on game mode to an OLED that has 6ms at 4k 120hz, I've suddenly "got good" I guess some people are more susceptible to lag than others, it didnt help that I split my gaming between a CRT and a modern display, I don't think the mini pc engine is terrible but it's not up to M2s usual high standards when you also take into consideration the audio delay and the lack of interpolation,.. Also just 1 point on your methodology, your lag test was at 1080p and the mini console outputs 720p, my tests show different results at different resolutions on most tvs,
Pezz 82 All very fair points that I wouldn’t argue. Adding another few frames of display lag on top of the few frames of the mini is a bit excessive. Just as many already feel that those extra 3-5 frames the mini is adding is excessive. Using a decent TV makes a huge difference. And as you noted it suddenly became much more playable. To note on my tester, I did test my particular TV at 720P as well and in this case it’s identical. If it wasn’t the lag numbers would have looked even greater. It was a bit beyond the video scope to mention it but you are correct. Some displays could add additional delay at 720p.
Amazing yet again. Looking forward to dumping more time on the mini. Unfortunately I have not given it the love it deserves and only been giving my NES and THPS2 some love 😅🤦🏻♂️ LoT next though thanks to you and Nerds Nest 😍
Bruno L I don’t blame you for all the nes love it was my first too and I still play them a lot when I can. You’ll hit the mini when the time is right. LoT will be waiting to kick your ass lag and all 😆. Honestly it’s not that bad you’ll be getting to the final level in no time.
@@ShmupJunkie highly doubt it 😆 plus I heard LoT is unplayable so I'm just not gonna play it 😆😆 dude MORE VIDEOS!
I have tried some shooters since I watched your video uploaded before this one and I found that I like Dead Moon quite a bit. But I suck and I need to practice much more.
Dead Moon is quite cool I know a few that really dig it. Just enjoy it and don’t worry about the rest. The only way to truly suck is blaming the game.
I was told there would be no math! I am so using this formula!
Clearly the South Park was strong in this one. I think this is the saltiest video I ever made 🤣. Did bring out the trolls though and made the video blow up so I can thank them too.
I hope they start producing them again, right now they're sitting at a ridiculous 350 CAD on amazon, which i just can't justify.
I’d like to see that too but given how no other mini has had more runs it’s not too likely. When it came out I created this channel and made these early videos to try and spread the word as much as possible. To at least show as many as possible what it has to offer. My channel was small and reach was limited but I did manage to reach so many. But at $200 you can have an analogue duo once it releases (if you can snag one very quickly as they sell out in minutes), so yeah not for 300 plus. That’ll practically get you a mister at that price.
This was absolutely BRILLIANT! I love when people show actual data and numbers. I also think with the Time Sleuth becoming widely available now, others will be able to easily duplicate these lag test and these things "should" clear up. However this is the internet we are talking about...
Vanessaira Thanks I appreciate it and am glad you enjoyed it. I think the hardest part with these test is being able to properly wire these controllers with an led. Eyeballing it just doesn’t cut it so you need that visual indicator. And not many will be able to solder the board to do it. This little video on my tiny channel has certainly gotten some traction (and likely ruffled a few feathers lol).
Yes Lag on your musical playback device doesnt matter but when its a videogame that shit needs to be tight
Great data and methodology - always appreciate when someone breaks out the leo bodnar. It is worth mentioning the elephant in the room....that Lords of Thunder‘s gameplay is obviously fast and frantic. That whole 3-4 frames of additional lag + any added LCD Tv lag is definitely going to be felt in that type of game, similarly to how it would be felt in sonic or mario when attempting to run fast and jump at the very edge of a platform, or in the infamous battle toads hover jet bike level when dodging the walls....but you know this lol. Subscribed.
Jason Steighner Really glad you enjoyed it and thanks for the positive feedback. No doubt the lag can be felt myself included. A decent tv is important. There is a point where it becomes too much and that’s a matter of skill and opinion I’m sure. I and many others I know have no real trouble playing it so I did have to wonder why some other folks singled it out. To that point, Soldier Blade caravan and many of the shooters on this mini are quite a bit faster playing than Lords. Approx. same lag just the ship moves faster. Nobody seems to take issue with them. So I almost wonder if the slower speed of your character in Lords vs something like Blade is a factor in how people may perceive it. You have to be deliberate in Lords and think a step ahead when playing.
Jason Steighner Also you just became my 200th Subscriber! 😃 🎉 lol
Shmup Junkie Interesting. I actually haven‘t played lords of thunder but am really curious now - not willing to shell out for the TG mini after amassing enough minis though lol. My most recent endeavors have been Darius and Thunderforce 3 on the genesis mini. Thunderforce actually gives you the option to adjust your ship‘s speed - I find the fastest option to be the most uncontrollable on a laggy TV. You‘re absolutely right about the TV. I have been cursing my LG 47LK520 which has 3-4 frames of lag compared to my TN panel laptop even in gaming mode. But, once I plugged the genesis mini into an office grade 60 hz TN monitor (slightly lower lag than my tn laptop) it was a great improvement in responsiveness for both of those SHMUPs. Sonic 2 on the genesis mini is still sadly worse than any other options I have tried, including even retroarch on the ps classic and just recently tested on Mister (amazingly low lag just by feel).
Shmup Junkie Awesome.Keep it up!
I'm curious - did you try connecting the light to the dpad? in some of games they have an "always on" rapid fire timer that will run regardless of input, and then upon firing you'll catch the next timer loop. that would explain much of the variance, and movement would have less room for that. other games will alsi bake in some attack delay but not as much movement delay (looking at you, bonk) - just some additional perspective that might help narrow things down! personally the combined lag is too much for me (and when it comes to emulation I've been spoiled by runahead) but it's still a lovely product! just wish they'd get better scaling options.
For this early video I only had it on the fire button at the time. But at least all of the games were pretty consistent, Lords was about the same delay as all the others. In general even on original hardware, Lords runs about a frame slower than basic hucard games and some other CD games, and it was the same on the mini emulating it. I always respect anyone who prefers to not play on an inexpensive emulator like a mini because they want better performance, or a Pi or whatever. I can feel the extra delay too playing on any of them, and given the option use some other method. Even Bonk doesn't have as much delay as people like to say, as testing it on original hardware his attacks and jumps come out just as fast as other games. It's the wind up (he pulls his head back first) before the attack that makes it feel like it takes a bit longer, but the animation starts in 2 frames or less on the real system. The mini is for casual play, just to enjoy the games again or experience them for the first time, and if people really like them and want to get serious, there's a million better ways, like emulation with run ahead that you mentioned. No serious player or scorer is going to use a mini console for anything but some fun. But that's what it's meant for and it's very nice like you mentioned for that purpose. It's all the silly folks trying to judge a hyundai like a ferrari, expecting too much out of a processor that likely cost less than $30. And like my video showed, the delay is there, several frames isn't trivial, but consistent across all the games. I wonder if proper integer scaling was just too much overhead considering the delay it already had without it. I'm actually more curious why the audio delay has to be there, as that seems more emulation driven than system performance, but we never got an answer on it from any of the mini console devs.
@@ShmupJunkie for sure, agreed across the board for the most part - i will say i'm glad the Pi emulation scene is slowly being shifted over to something like the FPGA-based MiSTer which is just so much better. excited for the day when features like runahead end up in every emulator and dedicated emulation boxes - more casual players will finally stop saying old games feel "sticky" because of compounded input issues.
regarding audio emulation, it's likely a case of buffering. you need to buffer audio a bit otherwise it can stutter, crackle, and pop, you can't do audio "in real time" per se like you would on a dedicated sound chip that just pukes out waveforms (and even then, "real time" is a misnomer, though it may as well be to us). slower processors need a larger buffer. emulating audio is actually *really* intense, especially doing it even remotely accurately - sometimes more intense than everything else combined, especially if you emulate the audio amp! - so giving it a big buffer since it is, to our eyes/ears, lower priority, makes sense. it's just one of the concessions that has to be made, unfortunately.
while it might initially make sense to emulate everything at once, it has to be remembered that the chips in these minis can only process serially, so it can't do one thing and then the other at the same time, or even get fast enough to approximate it. instead, you kind of jump back and forth between processes one at a time, imagine it like jumping between a bunch of assembly lines where one gets most of your attention and constantly has packages being sent out, while another one gets larger packages less frequently and later than the rest. i hope that analogy makes sense! this is why FPGAs are so exciting for retro games, since you can do parallel processing and split up the chip to do many things at the same time - input, display, audio, etc. and they're only getting cheaper! here's hoping we see them implemented in the next round of minis, if that ever happens.
and re: scaling - they're already doing nearest neighbor to the current display size, and integer is just a form of nearest neighbor that happens to land on, well, an integer. doesn't cost any more or less, it just seems like a poor oversight. the real solution is to integer scale to either one below or one above the full resolution, then bilinear (or better) to the 4:3 size. interestingly, project lunar gives us these options, so clearly the processor is capable! it just kinda feels like m2 was under serious crunch being a small company and being given so many "quick, these are trending, we need more!" products to get to market. they deserve so much better.
I know I suck at these games I'd rather just suck at them in their original state
1-2 frames of lag is god tier! That's the best you can ever hope for from any emulation.
Oh yeah, only a PCB or rare early gen games were that low in total. Not something you see at all anymore.
Which is better in your opinion: the Mega CD or PC Engine version of Lords of Thunder? Objectively speaking, without the nostalgia?
That's a great question with a very good answer. I did a whole comparison video on it right here! Lords is special to me so it was the very first comparison I ever did. ua-cam.com/video/aPPw7yahlbY/v-deo.html
@@ShmupJunkie ok, i missed that one!!!
Interesting video - though I think the main reasons why the MD and PCE minis were criticised were that they clearly exhibit more input lag than the SNES Classic AND that M2's reputation was pretty much unsullied prior to these recent low-end emu-boxes. It was probably wildly unrealistic to expect better accuracy from devices that have the processing power of a Raspberry Pi 2 but they are what they are.
-SG6000- You’re right on about unrealistic expectations. There are things I’d have liked to see such as proper interpolation and faster response, but I’m not the programmer to know if that was M2’s deficiency or the hardware. But I’m very interested to test the snes classic against the MD and this one to see what I get for results. I’ve been thinking about doing just that.
@@ShmupJunkie I understand that when the MD Mini's kernal was disassembled it was discovered that the CPU had been significantly underclocked - likely to mitigate any potential heating issues due to some motherboards using lower quality components than others (explaining why not all MD Mini consoles can be 'overclocked' safely). I don't own one to be able to verify this but it does suggest that the product was compromised on a basic level for simple economic reasons. Having said that though, these products aren't really aimed at real hardware enthusiasts, people who own OSSCs and lag testing equipment etc.
-SG6000- that’s good info I hadn’t read into forums enough on the Sega mini so hadn’t heard of that. Not surprising of course. I do use my OSSC a lot with real hardware and it’s gorgeous, but sometimes the convenience of these minis are nice. Maybe I’m just not as picky as many since the games are my priority and I seem to enjoy them fine on the mini too. And I have realistic expectations like you said. I can tell the difference, and I don’t expect $200 performance out of a budget product, but they’re still fun given you have a decent display that’s not piling on even more delay. So I’m happy to champion these as it’s been a great way for new folks to get their feet wet with the library. I know quite a few that are now looking into the hardware after really liking the games on the mini... which they’d never played until this point.
great video people think old hardware and games didn't have any lag there is plenty of shmups out there with a few frames of lag and other games.
Retro Tuna Yes good point. Lots of people don’t realize all games have certain frames of lag built into them even if their display is a crt. The emulator adds more lag which some people don’t like and I respect their opinion. But if they can’t even manage to play a game it says more about their inability to adjust than the game itself. Just saw your channel and subbed. 👍🏻 Will check out that PCE stream later on my long drive 😊
@@ShmupJunkie thanks mate for the sub i subscribed to yours, love the pc engine done loads of vids on it,
@@ShmupJunkie were you the guy running the caravan compo's a few months ago on Instagram if so they were fun think i came 5th on one of them.
Retro Tuna I figured by your avatar you were a fan 😆
Retro Tuna I think that was my bud Retroheed he’s a great dude. He ran them for final soldier and super. I took over for soldier blade after. Yeah super fun. FYI retroheed is doing a really fun little contest right now for omega blast on the mega drive. Free rom and it’s really fun. He is keeping track of the scores for the week.
Nothing against the mini, but I prefer original hardware. Playing a game as fast and chaotic as Lords of Thunder on a machine created in the late 80's is mesmerizing o.O (The PC Engine is an ANIMAL)
This video must have taken an insane amount of work, super appreciate it!
I think anyone normally would if it weren’t so expensive especially with the Duo and CD games. I use flash carts a ton too. The best thing to happen recently was the awesome Mister core so I can use a CRT and get flawless performance. It’s just not nearly plug and play. To me the mini is like an entry point or gateway for new people to try out the games and want to see more. I know quite a few that finally played games on it and enjoyed so many they got into more through other means. So it’s really good for that.
I’m glad you enjoyed the vid it was one of my earliest ones. Compared to the super involved ones I make now for histories etc it seems quaint and didn’t take nearly as long at the time. But it’s still an old favorite I had fun with that stupid formula lol
@@ShmupJunkie Yes, i totally agree on the emulation vs OG hardware. I actually got into the PC Engine because i was watching a classics video and noticed how vibrantly the colors popped(I think the game was Fantasy Star Soldier). Tried it out on an emulator and just like you said with the others, took the dive into real hardware from there.
The prices *are* super high for a PCE+CD, but with a little repair wizardry(replacing caps or the notorious yellowed gear), can be had for a reasonable number.
They should show this video in schools to all of our nation’s poor illiterate children
So they too can learn the value of the 'yaw' to supplement any fake equation haha. You can tell I made this after watching that episode of south park.
I love your channel. Your analysis is on point!
Dan Kiley Thanks! This video got a few unhappy trolls commenting which I expected, but the overall response was so positive I was pretty blown away.
Beat this game last week. It's kind of nuts how much better the water armor is than the other three.
edit - also lol at the suck coefficient part. its true. I got so frustrated when first getting into shmups but you have to stick with them. I think people lack attention span now.
Believe it or not the earth armor is the most overpowered and the one I prefer. It’s not very good if you are powered down so it’s more of an advanced armor, but at a decent power level it melts most everything very quickly. I actually have a harder time playing with anything else at this point haha
@@ShmupJunkie Im definitely gonna keep playing it, trying the harder difficulties. I'll check it out. I found the water armors ability to take out ships coming in behind you as so useful.
Your lag tester was set to 1080p output. The Mini consoles output 720p. 720p can require more scaling than a native 1080p signal on a 1080p display.
Emmett Turner You’re absolutely correct and I saw your comment on the FB group. I answered it much more completely there, but the short answer is I verified that my specific display has no additional delay at 720p. You make a great point and one we should be asking of other numbers we see.
I have the Pc Engine Mini and I am happy with it. In regards of lag, I played for the example the Mega Drive Mini and thought that everything was okay, but after purchasing the Analogue Mega SG, I was directly better in frame sensitive games like Thunderforce 4 and Contra. In comparision I am very skilled for NES titles and had no issue with the Famicom Mini. I Think in regards of Emulation, you can still play these Minis and have fun with it, but these lag discussion is very based on feelings from different players during gameplay. I had also a raspberry pi 3 and sucked at games there I usually master. So, as far as these Minis are better than a raspy, it is good enough.
Freddy R you are completely correct. Extra lag makes it harder to adjust to a game. So if you are very good at some you will adjust better than others. You take responsibility for that adjustment and don’t blame the game for it. It’s an inexpensive emulator under $100 that performs better than a pi and is convenient. Correct sir
You should get a MiSTer - that gives you that Mega SG feeling for much more systems, including PCE (CD). Mini systems suck.
This is awesome! I've heard so much shit talked about the PCEM yet playing the games I can't notice any lag worthy of worrying about at all. Is there any chance of you doing one of these for the Megadrive Mini 2 pls? Specifically on Robo Aleste as you have Lords of Thunder here? I've read a lot of complaints about that being "unplayable" and I think it plays fine, and they are just shit players.
I was going to lag test the new mini if I got a chance yeah, but I wasn't planning on doing a full video for it. My schedule is too backed up and by the time I got to it, nobody will watch it'll be old news. But I'm curious myself and would like to see how it runs. As I actually heard it uses a faster processor than the previous so it may perform even better. I do know RetroRGB did some in depth lag testing on it and their stuff is legit and accurate. You don't have to agree with their opinion as they are sticklers and find anything above a very minimal amount unacceptable. But that's just interpretation. Their actual numbers and test methods are reliable. Anything at 6-7 frames or less on a $99 mini is what I normally see.
@@ShmupJunkie Nice. Yeah, a quick 5-10 min vid would be fine anyway, just be interesting to get your findings on it seeing as you test these things thoroughly. This vid gave me a good laugh to with the awesome piss-taking via formulas, so part of me wants to see something similar to that again lol.
LoT is hard as balls, but I do blame my complete suck-ness for that ... and nothing else. I can even get further on PULSTAR than I can on LoT, and that ain't no pushover.
Damn really? Pulstar is a beast of a game, I think LoT is a weakling by comparison. But it's different playstyle for everyone I guess. I think I only finished Pulstar one time legit. You die late in that game it's all over.
@@ShmupJunkie Well when I say I get further, it's not that far, not finished it, so well done you. I think it's the controls, I just got the coregrafx mini (UK) recently, not used to the controller yet. I play pulstar emulated on a joy-pad, which is a bit easier to get used to initially.
Lol right on man. Way to call out all the suckitud and parroting going on from reviewers. That air zonk start screen behind you is awesome. Nice job using tools to verify.
Supa Nintendope Thanks. Yeah not a fan of the “I didn’t test it myself but this guy said” type of stuff.
Shmup Junkie Yeah I completely agree. Can’t just take somebody’s word for it because they assume that person is credible enough to present facts and not anecdotal evidence.
I have been playing TG16 since it came out and I just picked up the mini and with out a doubt there is lag in the mini. I struggle playing blazing lasers in the mini but breeze through it on my real Duo. I am guessing there is a good 1/2 sec lag between controller actions and screen movement. Sorry but the unit needs to fix this.
David Decker Have you checked your TV to make sure your Game mode is turned ON? The mini does add some lag but a half second is way too much. It sounds like something is wrong.
@@ShmupJunkie By game mode do you mean 120hz or sports mode? No I keep my TV at 60hz for movies. I will give that a try though. FYI I don't have any modern gaming systems. The most current system I have in the house is a Wii that my wife bought. All my systems are PS1, Saturn, Genesis, Sega CD, Turbo Duo and so on.
David Decker no it’s a different setting. The refresh rate is for sports mode like you said so you don’t get that ugly soap opera effect. I keep it off too. Game mode (or whatever your tv manufacturer likes to call it) turns off all the extra video processing to enhance the image. It usually adds its own 2-3 frames of delay vs having it off. Every brand calls it something else. If you reply with the make and model of your TV I can likely tell you where in the menu it is or what they call it. Maybe you already have it enabled but it’s worth checking as you want it in that mode for all gaming retro or modern.
@@ShmupJunkie I will take a look and let you now how it goes. I also heard the unit has already been hacked so people can add additional ROMs to it. Personally not having the legendary Axes, Keith Courage, Devils Crush, Dungeon Explorer 2, Cosmic Fantasy 2 on there was a big drop.
I’m pretty disappointed by this video. I’ve become a big fan of the channel and have gradually watched many of the older videos. Here, I’m genuinely a bit baffled. 3.5-4 frames of lag isn’t great for an emulator. It’s not abhorrent, but it’s not good either, right? It seems extremely fair to say the emulation’s results are pretty lacking (setting aside the not-great pixel scaling).
I bought the TurboGrafx-16 Mini myself, and am all for the mini consoles and accessibility. I wouldn’t blame M2 either. The real problem is these Allwinner SoCs and such are super super cheap, and thus perform like one would expect. M2 can’t work miracles. Additionally, I have little doubt Sega and Konami imposed constraints on M2 that they had no control over. There’s pretty much no chance Sega and Konami really sweated the technical details and gave M2 the time and resources to truly achieve the best possible results.
Is 3.5-4 frames of input lag normal enough for emulators? Sure. Is it up to M2’s standards? Can’t exactly say it is, right?
I wouldn’t dunk on MLiG and Coury for those comments, imho. To expect them to be hardcore shmup players and already familiar with these games in-depth (as opposed to literally thousands of other games) is I think pretty unrealistic. He gave subjective impressions of how he felt playing Lords of Thunder, which are not invalid. He relied on the input lag tested that they showed from the professional gamer. And by and large what they said is accurate: the input lag (and audio lag and scaling issues) is similar to the Genesis/Mega Drive Mini. I genuinely don’t get why you’re trashing them based on penis size (really?) in some skit just to dunk on the fact they didn’t realize all the games have similar emulation lag. It’s not like they trashed the product anyway. You can tell they were very polite about their criticisms because they have extreme adoration for M2’s technical work.
Anyhow, as someone similarly obsessed with technical details, seems fairly objective to highlight the natural input lag that results with emulation on such cheap chipsets. But totally understand your love for the PC Engine and these games. For sure you brought a lot of value in these videos highlighting the platform and games themselves :)
First off, thank you for the genuine and thoughtful comment. I have no issue at all with some negative feedback when it's earnest like yours. I have to be honest, this video is now easily taken out of context as it was a product of it's time and I've considered making it private, and have only left it up because I felt the info and results were important to showcase. As not a single other video has done it to this day. It was the third video I ever I made I believe, back when I just started my channel for fun and to do some PCE Mini reviews with no expectations. So I was just having dumb fun with it all and spreading my passion for it, throwing anything at the wall and seeing what sticks. I actually love MLiG and those guys, having watched them mostly for their tech content for many years. And we are both subscribed to each others channels, with them watching some of mine as well. For some context, this video was actually aimed at several channels and not intended to single them out at all, as they were just one of many guilty of singling out Lords as a problem game on the console. I actually WISH these mini consoles could get 3.5-4 frames of delay as that would be amazing, but they are 6-7 AT BEST on a very good day. All of them. I've yet to test one that isn't. Like you said, their processor is cheap. And I loved what M2 did with it despite the limitations. These are inexpensive $99 entry level toys meant to enjoy the games on a surface level, possibly relive old memories for those who don't have other ways to do so, and potentially be a gateway to exploring more of the library. Definitely not for serious scoring. But just good enough to still play the games effectively and enjoy them. Completely casual.
So when I made these videos, it was to the backdrop of a large uproar on the Internet of how the PCE Mini had terrible lag issues and wasn't worth picking up. Which after playing mine for as week, I quickly realized was complete nonsense. I wasn't on youtube yet, but knew A LOT of folks in the community and my DMs were absolutely flooded with messages. All asking me if the negative info out there was true as they were really looking forward to the release and disappointed by what they were seeing. When I finally got my hands on mine and spent a week playing it, I realized what was out there was inaccurate and mostly bandwagon trolling that's so common. And it was pretty upsetting as I felt this mini was a phenomenal way to expose new players to this obscure library of games. And no matter how much I looked, I could barely find the rare video focusing on what I thought were the best aspects of the console. Instead they mostly parroted the same info they heard elsewhere without actual tests. So I set out to make these videos and give my take on the Mini, and try to offset the flood of negative content out there. MLiG was actually quite gracious aside from their LoT comment and I fault them for nothing aside from being overly critical of a $99 cheap piece of hardware. Unfortunately most took these handful of large youtube videos to heart and created an atmosphere of negativity around the console. I made it my goal to offset it somehow and the rest is history I suppose. As the videos somehow did really well despite me being brand new and had a positive effect which was obvious by the comments. And it was that positive flood of comments and response that actually forced my hand to keep making videos. I was able to convince a large following to disregard the negativity around it and give the mini a shot, which they did. What followed was an even larger flood of DMs and comments thanking me up and down for changing their mind about the PCE Mini, as they absolutely loved it after getting it from watching my video reviews. It was a big part of what kept me going and helped me decide to expand my content. So this video was purposefully salty and I absolutely see how today it comes across that way. It was meant to elicit a response and counteract the mountain of negative content at the time with actual tests and numbers. And all it showed was that this mini performed the same as every one that came before... and that all the games performed near equally across the board including LoT. At a lag level that while not great, didn't make any of the games impossible to play. I realize now some of the jokes come across as a bit crass and low brow, but that was all part of the learning process for me. I doubt I would make a video like this now and that's all part of the learning and growing process doing youtube. But looking back at the comments, it not only brought the trolls to the yard where I could shut them down, but also changed a lot of people's minds on giving the mini a chance. I've always been a proponent on not blaming lack of skill or practice on input delay and still hold to that line of thinking, somewhat of a counterpoint to my good friend Mark at the Electric Underground. I just go about it a bit more eloquently now instead of homaging South Park lol. But I've left this up for it's nostalgic/historic value to a lot of my original subs. It's a big part of what got my channel going back then, warts and all and blew up for what was literally my third ever video. And it was all done with tongue firmly in cheek. So I hope you don't take it too much to heart. I honestly thought the riff on the South Park formula was pretty funny, if not overly silly and dumb.
@@ShmupJunkie Firstly, thanks in turn for the thoughtful comments. Sorry if I caused any stress at all; I almost deleted my comment right after submitting it. I can tell you’re a good guy and genuine person, so no sweat there.
Also I had no idea about the South Park skit, so that’s definitely mitigating :)
And I also understand a little about content creation, having done it briefly on a different platform. Everyone expects perfection and will gripe about even the smallest perceived nit. It’s super stressful of course. I still have content up that has minor errors for example that I really wish I could fix, but for dumb reasons I’m not able to correct or take them down. And in my case my first piece of content did huge numbers, but I hated it because I got a bunch of stuff wrong and did several follow-up pieces to correct for those mistakes.
We’re all guilty of nit picking or getting aggravated about inaccuracies both ways regardless. We’re all human. Plus the internet is the worst place for nuance and multifaceted discussions, nonetheless UA-cam.
I’m probably very quick to defend Coury particularly because I know he takes criticism super hard. Agree he was a little careless with the LoT comment, but he does a ton of great work in general which is super hard to come by on these topics.
Plus MLiG is always quick to stress that “you should play the way _you_ want to play,” and that emulation is a wonderful solution as a whole.
I do very much appreciate the input lag numbers you and The Electric Underground put out. It’s tough to find any technical data anywhere among the sea of garbage on the internet, and even small amounts of data can really help consumers. (Please do keep covering ports of non-shmup games like arcade collections as well!)
I’m still watching your other videos for the record, and these TG16 videos have inspired me to actually play my TurboGrafx Mini more.
You definitely are the best shmup channel, and I’ve learned a lot from your videos. I know John Linneman is a big fan of yours as well, which is how I found this channel. Keep doing what you do 👊
Heh funny and informative video :) I did a 1-Life replay of Soldier Blade on Hard difficulty on my channel and didn’t notice the variable input delay, weird. Numbers don’t lie I guess :) Subbed.
I’m sure it’s because you know the game so well. I don’t notice it either. That’s why I was surprised by what I got and had to retest multiple times. But once I got it on both original hardware and the mini I knew it had to be legit. I didn’t know you posted a playthrough I’m going to check it out later! I haven’t beaten SB on a single life yet there’s a couple spots that get me. Always fun to see how someone else does it.
exmosquito also totally didn’t know about your channel. Lots of great shooter plays I’m subbed!
Shmup Junkie heh yeah I like my PCE shooters :) I agree with your video that most people say the lag on Lords of Thunder is bad because they’re not thinking what they’re doing half the time and just want instant results. As you know shooters are pretty punishing and unless you actually put your mind to it and get creative and think what you’re doing you’re gonna die a lot. You put in it a funnier way obviously :)
I appreciate your comments on people's ability to spread misinformation via social media and youtube channels, and I especially appreciate your refreshingly considerate and thorough lag tests!
That said, there's no way you could possibly defend a total input lag of 7-9 frames in a shoot'em up, and I think your tests only confirm the criticism that's already out there. If the console adds up to 4 frames on top of an already inherently laggy setup (and this is considering your TV which is in the absolute low end of lag on popular HDMI monitors), that's enough to spiral the game way into the red zone, where it's absolutely guaranteed to impact your gameplay negatively.
It might still be juuuust low enough that most people won't immediately *notice* it, but there's no way it won't affect how they play, which puts the console solidly in the area of online disputes where one camp will complain about the lag, while the other camp claims they don't see the lag.
Morten Riis Svendsen I wouldn’t disagree with you at all here. I’m the first to admit having played these games since I was young that I can feel the lag using an emulator. And I can see why some would just complain and not want to play that way. While others like myself will just enjoy it for what it is and be able to adjust and still play the game effectively. You have other reviews claiming some games play just fine while others do not (LoT) when the numbers don’t bear out that result. It says more about their gameplay than the game itself. But you are correct 7-9 total frames is a lot anywhere. And the other mini consoles are not significantly any different (I actually tested my Genesis mini and was going to post that but for brevity edited it out) and it’s in the same 7-8 ballpark. But once other reviews start singling out this mini or certain games as unplayable while others are fine , blaming that on extra lag... I wanted to show that the numbers proved otherwise. Once you call something unplayable vs other games that’s an assertion that should be verified. I honestly expected it to have worse numbers based on all the claims so I was surprised to find otherwise. Again I very much appreciate your thoughtful comment and actually agree that several frames of total lag can effect the experience for some. And it should always be noted which I clearly do. But in the context of mini consoles any I’ve played and tested seem to perform about the same. To single out any one or particular games comes across as sour grapes. And like you rightfully said those sour grapes can spread like wildfire online. Hey did you hear they said game x was unplayable the lag must be terrible. I think I’ll pass. Can’t say how many times I’ve seen that comment directed at this mini. 😢
4 frames lag is a LOT, especially on games that were not using a frame buffer and drawing sprites line by line on a CRT. Then add your 14ms (in fact more since your LCD draws pictures one frame at a time), display lag and you are toast. If you can't figure out that much, I can't help you.
Mathieu Hervais If by a lot you mean the same as all other mini emulators then you’re correct. But I’m not sure what you mean by “you’re toast”? The lag certainly wasn’t enough to keep me from both beating and enjoying those same games that I did on original hardware. Nor enough to keep me from scoring top tier when playing the SB 2min mode, something most can’t even do on a CRT. So I certainly don’t need any help ; ) But it does sound like people calling a game unplayable and blaming it on those few frames of lag could certainly use some.
@@ShmupJunkie by "you are toast" that means you are more likely to get shot and this will deter from the original experience. 4 frames of lag is 60ms, in a shooter that's a lot. There are other solutions than using minis or software based emulation, such as real hardware or FPGA based solutions, which add no lag whatsoever (than whatever the original developers intended), which helps mitigating the existing input lag from your display or your usb controllers (not as fast as the original serial ones). These games were not designed with input lags from software emulators, usb overhead or LCD monitors in mind.
Mathieu Hervais All very fair points and ones I would make myself. I don’t think anyone would argue that an FPGA solution isn’t superior. I own every analogue console and love them to death. Not just for the great performance like you mention but the options you have to tweak your experience. But they are also twice the cost or more. To me the mini is a great plug and play budget system for people who have never tried the games before and want to experience them. I know too many myself that are loving it. So the point isn’t that the mini is as good or superior to anything else. Only that it’s a cool piece for a low price that’s still as well done as I can imagine given the price point. And you can absolutely still have a blast with one as I did. That’s coming from someone who owns and has beaten just about every one of the games on there on the original hardware. It’s not perfect. Not even as good as a better emulator or fpga. But it’s still fun and playable. And I think that’s been the gist of all my videos and reviews so far.
Mathieu Hervais btw just curious I got a huge spike in the video views this hour all of a sudden. Did this get posted somewhere on a site where you saw it? Or did you just come across it in search?
@@ShmupJunkie I just posted it my twitter and the classic gaming discord. Other than that, it's been suggested by UA-cam itself, which is how I came across your video.
At least I can now confirm that I S.U.C at schmups 😂. I just fish NEC hadn't totally botched the European release as I would've adored this console as a kid. I had my master system until the mid 90s. Love the channel, re-watching the older stuff now.
Yes. People forget that original hardware can have slowdown or erratic framerates and they blame it on emulation.
16x9 you troll great vid just ordered this
Let me know how you enjoy it. It’s got so many great shmups on there if you like the genre, it’s hard to go wrong. Long as it’s on a decent tv in game mode I’ve loved it.
@@ShmupJunkie does it do 480p 4x3 output i got a hdmi to vga adapter so gonna try on a sgi vga crt monitor if not projector it
@@brainbeatuk all mini consoles only output 720p they don’t give you options to change resolution. It does have 4x3 mode it will just put bars or background on the rest of the image. It’s still outputting 720p but the game will be in a 4x3 box. I’d be careful with hdmi to vga adapters a lot of them can add lots of extra delay unless it’s a high end one. You’ll have to experiment. But the output will always be 720p.
@@ShmupJunkie ah ill just put on projector then, them little adapters are pretty much just passthrough devices one I got anyway no audio option ones are OK I think
Good stuff man! Really amazed at how much effort you put into all the lag testing and quality of the videos! I was CTFU at Fire Marshall Bill!
djf7 Thanks man! It is a lot of work I won’t lie. But it’s been great seeing so many people enjoy the vids. Lemme show ya somethin! 😂 man I loved that show
Shmup Junkie lol yeah dude...every Sunday night at 9pm on fox 5 New York where I’m from!
I caved and bought the PC-Engine Mini. Lords of Thunder plays exactly like it did the last time I played it: like doing a three point turn with a tugboat. When I read/watched reviews and they were talking about it in particular, I was like, “yo, they’re describing Lords of Thunder...period.” And sure enough... Maybe we should make them play with the DuoR/X controller and really give them something to complain about? 😂. My only complaint is the omission of Download, Sylphia and fifty million or so Naxat titles.
I really love mine. Lords is a really tough game. Eventually I’ll do it
Tough but so cool it's easy to replay and try to do better. Some stages are really hard to start on others are easier. I always recommend start on Desert or Water stages they are easier to get through without power ups, which you can buy after you finish a stage with more money.
Great video dude, totally had me in stitches in places. Love the Trump troll! Great testing to prove the point. I desperately want the mini but need to save my pennies, plus I'm having trouble in Europe finding Splatterhouse USA so I'm going Everdrive for now until the right Splatterhouse deal comes my way. It will be mine one day, oh yes...
I personally never get the lag arguement because there is always some level of lag, TV, console, game etc. As a gamer you just adapt and overcome, that's part of getting good, is learning the game. I've never once blamed a game for my inability to complete it, I've just accepted some are tougher that others.
Really excellent video mate. Keep the good stuff coming. Road to 1k views and totally deserved!
King Lizzard's Game Lounge Road to 1K I like the sound of that haha. Thx man glad you enjoyed it. Some people just want to nitpick things to death instead of tempering their criticism with a realistic perspective. I’m just getting going on some fun ideas for the next vid and it may include popping a few more pimples while I’m at it 😆.
You’ll get your Splatterhouse dude only a matter of time. I’m looking forward to you getting the Everdrive so you can properly fire it up.
@@ShmupJunkie Awesome. looking forward to it mate!
i blame that i suck at lords of thunder. i'm pretty impatient with shooters. But the music is far from sucking tough, the soundtrack is insane.
I sometimes find myself not playing as well when I’m so engrossed in the music I lose focus 😅. Playing it without the sound cranked just isn’t right though.
I love you for this .
Oh man an oldie but a goodie. This vid brought out the trolls and it was worth it. I try to make my new vids less salty now but I admit I had fun with this 😅.
The suckitude quoeficient... brilliant !!
Miguel Rafael Once I had the idea to do a spoof of the South Park formula I knew I had to do it 😂
Great stuff dude i have an original pc engine so never really bothered with the mini👍
Glen Galloway I like it for convenience or to bring over to another home for fun vs dragging any og console around. It’s been useful for that... well not this year 😐
Yeah you can work in a shop with 1000s of customers but you cant take a pc engine to a friends. absolute baloney
Yea indeed, it’s mind over matter, considering there is 1000ms in a second and get people online saying they notice 30ms of lag blows my mind
Another amazing vídeo, congratulations Turbo!
Jogos de Navinha Thank you friend. Appreciate the support big time! I’m glad you are enjoying them!
Personally, the input lag was most noticeable when playing Spriggan for me compared to on original hardware. Still a great mini though.
Really Spriggan? So bizarre. I didn't think to test it but I played all the way through it without really noticing anything unusual. Just for the heck of it, next time I'm on the mini I can use my modded controller and see how it is compared to the others. Really cool game too I like Spriggan quite a bit.
Maybe those reviewers perception of input lag is being influenced by the audio lag? Has anyone measured the audio lag?
4:20 shows that it all adds up. 7 - 8 frames lag on an emulator displaying on a modern tv... How much lag is there on original hardware displaying on a crt screen? Probably only 2-3 frames from the game itsself. Theres around a 5 frame difference between the 2 set ups.. a tenth of a second or so. Dont think thats too much of a deal breaker, but i know i would much rather be playing on what we had back in the day
Without a doubt, few things besides an FPGA like a MiSTer compare to the real thing. I can absolutely feel the difference when playing on my CRT as well. I was mostly pointing out that the lag on Lords was near identical to all the other games on the mini, so it being picked on didn't make sense. They all ran about the same. It's a good entry point for new players and still possible to play and enjoy, see if the games are something they'd like to explore further, but yeah no mini console will compare to the real deal. At least not yet. The real deal breaker is a slow display, as with the 5 or so frames the mini is adding, if you also have a display adding it's own 2-3+ that's going to kill it. It's almost a given these days with the inexpensive emulators that you better have a decent monitor with a frame or less of delay. Otherwise that 6-7 frames becomes 9-10 and at some point it's just too much. I hear you on that.
None of these mini consoles have proven to have latency problems on my set up. Please sort ur tv out it usually is the cause of lag
Sorry, I do my testing with an actual modified controller and an LED, so I can measure the exact input delay versus going by what it "feels" like. There is no problem with my TV and I play my mini consoles just fine. This mini is no different than all the others and I enjoy it quite a bit.
The Metal Slug Anthology allegedly had lag problems, but it seems fine to me.
T.M.I. heh heh...That was a funny ass episode of South Park.😂 Thanks for putting in the tedious work of putting those lag disparities to bed! I'll be getting mine soon, so it's cool to know. 👊
DAMAGE INC. oh man I still watch scenes from it now and again it’s classic 😂. I had the idea and just had to run with it. Yeah now it’s finally on US Amazon even more folks will be looking to reviews. Most wont likely find mine but it’s slowly getting out there.
You did your part of putting out the word on the awesomeness of the Turbo mini! The views will come over time & more people will discover what they've been missing... 😮 I'm stoked to get mine in a couple weeks now!
Pc Engine is so cool. I wish I had one. Good job anyway!
MOXIE channel I agree it’s a banger of a console. And it’s very hard to own and buy games for it. Why I am such a big fan of this mini. Good way for lots of people to try games that are hard to get otherwise.
How many in original hardware?
It’s been a long time since I measured it, but I recall it was around 2-3 frames for lords of thunder. 1-2 frames for most other games.
Switching to Game mode helps alot
Very much so. Playing any games especially the older ones with the extra delay from an hdtv usually ruins it. Too bad some TVs don't have very good game modes but most have really improved these last years. I actually talk about it a good bit in my other HDMI input lag video I did.
As much as i want it, im gonna wait till it get's a price drop, i did wit with all my other mini's and bought a refurbished nes and snes instead of a brand new one full price. as for playing turbo games i'll stick to the wii virtual console till the price drop
QuetzalToonart005 The Wii VC games were some really good ports. Soldier Blade plays great on it. If you have one with the wires GameCube ports even better. I’m a fan of the VC games there were some great ports
@@ShmupJunkie Because of the Wii VC and that there was a Bravoman animated short series that came out a few years ago it drove me into buying a trubografx of my own with a pc engine card reader to play games on both systems. sadly i have to deal with using an rf adaptor to play the games its still fun
Haha awesome. This confirms that I suck at Lords of Thunder. Fun game though!
Tobin Silverweed It’s perfectly fine to suck at a game. I suck at Bomberman and Tetris. But you’re not going out and blaming the lag (I hope 😆). You only get Suckitude points for blaming the game and crying about it online 😁
@@ShmupJunkie yeah I get your point and you're right. After 20 or so times of getting steamrolled on LOT, I'm happy to say that I'm starting to kick all kinds of ass. Just gotta turn up that soundtrack and have fun 🤘🔥
What if the game in itself has always had some lag. If that were the case the added lag would make it more noticable than the others.
Lag isn't always an excuse. I'm great at Combat Cars for Genesis, but only on CRT.
On the flatscreen I can't beat the 2nd level. I tried a hundred times because I hate the sound CRTs make and rather use a flatscreen. Yet on the CRT I get to level 8+
I try switching back to LCD with no luck.
Also there are comments on that game, ppl saying they don't know how they were able to beat the game when they were younger but suck at it now. Well this could explain that since no one has CRT anymore.
I rarely use CRT but it helps with certain games. Use it for Halo and youl have a slight advantage over the other players hehe
LightBlue2222 you’re correct in that every game has its own built in lag also. Some more than others it’s normal. Later in my video I measured that lag on original hardware and on a crt. So any emulator is adding its delay on top of the original game.
Have you ever checked your lcd tv settings to make sure it’s in Game mode? That also helps a lot so your tv isn’t adding more delay than necessary. It’s not always called game mode every tv is different but there is a setting that can usually enable it.
@@ShmupJunkie Nice. I didn't know about game mode. Mine doesn't have it but I just read up that turning off unnecessary settings helps in the same way. So I'll have to give it a try with dynamic contrast n' such turned off. I didn't realize that could make a difference. Thanks
LightBlue2222 yeah. It’s very rare a tv doesn’t have a game mode of some kind. It’s not always called “game mode” but if it’s a major brand , you should be able to google how to get it going. It adds 3-4 frames of its own easily without the processing disabled for games. I hope you can find it on yours.
Please do a video about input lag on the Switch and it's shmup library, would be fantastic to know how much this is exaggerated because there is a lot of negative talk.
Jan-Niklas Hoffmann That’s a really good idea actually. I’m sure it has to vary game by game since it also depends on that but it would be interesting to compare some. Are there specific games you’ve seen most complaints on? I must have been out of the loop on it as I haven’t run into the videos complaining about it.
@@ShmupJunkie -some of the games that got loads of complaints are the Psikyo collection games (digital/physical collections and individual releases), the Hamster Neo Geo and arcade ports, Rival Megagun and Sisters Royal. ESP.Ra.de, Darius Collection, Thunderforce ports and Danmaku 3 are supposed to be relatively snappy. Some people also say the Switch has a high input lag itself, reacting more laggy when docked. Don't really know what to believe and it bothers me and makes me sad because I have loads of shmups on the Switch...I was playing Dragon Blaze and it didn't feel unplayable at all, but then again I don't really have anything to compare it to. (Haven't played the arcade version).
@@ShmupJunkie here is an example of what I mean...check out the Switch reviews of a) Gunbird b)Psikyo shooting stars Alpha/Bravo, both on 'Nintendolife'. The first review Gunbird doesn't even mention lag and the game gets a solid 8/10. Same site reviews the collections and they score 5/10 because of lag and barebones port. What to believe?
Then the Darius Collection gets praised for having 4 frames of lag, but the Hamster ports are trashed for having 5. Seems crazy...
As if I could tell 1 frame of lag difference lol my brain has too much input lag already to even process that :-p
Jan-Niklas Hoffmann those are a good place to start thanks 🙏. I’d need to modify a switch controller before I could do it. And you need to measure the original game on its hardware too. Each game has its own delay. So if you really want to know how much just the switch is adding there are multiple factors to test and subtract. Just like in this video I had to test games on original hardware too for comparison. It’s definitely worth doing since it seems to be a big deal. I would just have to start with a collection or something where the original games had a good port elsewhere. Some of the psikyo games seems a good place to start.
Jan-Niklas Hoffmann I don’t expect much out of these big reviews sites honestly. At least for consistency. But I’ll definitely check them out when I’m doing a specific game to see if the claim jives with the results.
It has been confirmed after several months of denial that he DID in fact use MY wig for his raging metal intro. 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
Patti Boo 🤷♂️ 😂 I guess I owe you another wig. I really thought it was my screech wig.
admittedly, my second factor (games/completed) in that equation is infinitesimally small :(
haha, well that part doesn't matter. You aren't going online telling everyone the game is unplayable because you can't complete it, so your factor is always Zero. That formula only applies to people having a good or not so good reason to blame the game for their own lack of skill.
I'm just going to say one last thing. I've been thinking about it recently. You clearly understand the concept of lag enough to where you invested in the Leo Bodnar lag tester. Riddle me this, would you personally buy a TV if you knew it had 4 frames of built in latency? Let's say the world was perfect and none of the sources added extra lag outside the internal game lag, would you still buy a TV with 4 frames of lag? Something tells me you wouldn't, so then why do you dismiss 4 frames of latency within the source itself?
charvelgtrs If the TV allowed me to play a set of games I couldn’t otherwise afford to play any other way, absolutely I would. I think the misunderstanding is that I’m dismissing my lag results. I never dismissed the lag I measured saying it was insignificant. I presented it straight up. Never said it was equivalent to a more expensive emulator or other hardware. A few frames is simply what I expect from a budget emulation box. Just like I wouldn’t expect a budget TV to perform like an expensive one, nor would I lambast it for not doing so. Because not everyone can afford a higher end TV. I’d show the numbers straight up and say hey, you can still play games on this TV and if anyone is telling you otherwise, it’s because they’re just not very good at the game. It’s totally playable. Sure this cheaper TV has 2 more frames of delay than the pricier one, but it’s what I’d expect at the price and I can still enjoy games on it. If you’ve seen any of my other vids on this mini that’s pretty much what I say. So to answer your question, yes if that tv was unique somehow and fit something I could use in one of my rooms, I’d buy it. Would I be replacing my OLED with one? No. But I’d gladly recommend it to anyone that’s on a budget and tell them it’s a nice set that I also tried and can enjoy playing on. And if someone crapped all over it saying how games on it are unplayable, I would tell them to stop blaming the tv for sucking at the game. Pretty much what I did here. Sorry for the longish reply but I hope that shows my perspective on this. Your question was sincere and respectful so it deserved a proper answer.
The games where the player can cover more distance in a shorter time, and especially without inertia, are the ones that will be most noticeably laggy.
-=tAz=- lords is a bit unique for pc engine shooters your character actually moves a bit slower than normal compared to faster paced games like soldier blade and Gradius.
Genius!!
Nightrider 9000 😁👊 Thx man appreciate the props and glad you enjoyed it.
Finally ! I was surprised by the the complaints, i played all these games hundreds of times the last 30 years and found the mini to have the most accurate emulator for the pce
sam Lepirate I agree the lag is there like other mini units, but the emulation is accurate and plays like the originals. It’s not for everyone but people complaining about certain games says more about them than the mini or emulation quality.
Think before sucking!🤣🤣 Words anyone and everyone should live by!
0:15
godtier
playback speed 0.25x 😎
I'm just getting slower in my old age haha
Can't believe my comments were removed, what a farce. [fixed]
vanguardcat I’m so glad you reposted I felt so bad! The original poster you commented on deleted their comment so yours and my replies were erased. I had my reply all written out and then it wouldn’t let me post because it was gone 🤦♂️. Luckily I made a copy of it on my phone 😁. So here was my reply to your very thoughtful comments by the way 👍🏻
“Not at all I appreciate the thoughtful comment and discussion. I wasn’t expecting to post a lag test video without the methodology being questioned. Most comments will be misinformed to the point where I can’t take the time to educate or correct every one of them so I don’t. But when someone is knowledgeable and has a valid point I can only welcome it. Anything less makes one a hypocrite. Next time I do a lag comparison I may very well note your point and make sure I credit you for it! While subtracting that half frame may not effect any notable results I’m all for furthering important discussions. And I’ll bet if I did there would be plenty of people in the opposite camp to call me out on not using the center method as it’s the “standard” common practice. 🤷♂️😆 And it’s the main reason I do as well. But you point out very well the common misconception between actual display lag and the time to draw the frame on screen”
@@ShmupJunkie Ah thank you! nevermind, knowing the original poster a bit I'm not surprised he did that lol. Anyway your method is by default better than all the approximations around since you care to compare against the original hardware(s). The little problem we were discussing although minor (well, not so minor in cases as I explained before JJ erased my post, you know, thresholds blah blah) can only be 'fixed' through communication if people start to take note of it here and there, so the knowledge spreads and hopefully some day wins againsts the widespread misconception-confusion. Of course I'll be happy if you mention that in your videos or elsewhere in the future, no need to credit me I'm just a passerby, only the facts and accuracy matter for the sake of the general (and sorry I know this is Google/YT which is a lot about popularity, but everywhere things are technical, popular so easily becomes the enemy of correct).
That said thanks again for the useful video. Man I wish my Mini would arrive already *sigh*.
vanguardcat I’m new here so not too familiar with JJ, but his original comment made little sense and I called them out on it. So they chose to delete it 🤷♂️. I realize my review comes across a bit harsh I swear I’m not so bad in real life lol, but I felt the need as I thought the several places I saw claiming these things were doing the mini an injustice. As opposed to the horrendous crt filter which I myself ripped into in my original vid that most outlets just gave a pass. 🤷♂️ But regardless I’m glad to meet good folks on here willing to have a proper discussion and that can teach me some things as well. I may get a bit “salty” in the vids for fun and views but I’ll never shut down a legit convo in the comments.
So glad you did this.... but unfortunately the MLiG crew (Coury) and Chris Tang will never own up to it. Yep, I can call them out!
Superdimensional I’ve seen a good several folks parroting the same info so I wasn’t going to single anyone out. I just wanted to set the record straight and provide some good data. And of course have some fun with it 😅. But in regards to Chris his measurements were fine and pretty much in line with mine. So I’ve got no bones with him he actually went and measured something instead of just saying this feels good, this feels bad. It’s the people that are misinterpreting his data that’s the big issue. Them assuming lords is numerically worse because it “feels” worse and they can’t play it is the problem. Now you’re blaming your lack of skill on the hardware and complaining about it online when the numbers don’t bear out that assumption.
Shmup Junkie yep exactly and when in other videos they say the all too common “I didn’t have this console back in the day” well then how are you an eye ball expert?
This Kind of reminded me of the PS1 classic and Tekken 3, everybody complained about it. They basically tore the thing apart because of Tekken 3 not running at 60fps, Yet I beat Tekken 3 over 3 times on the PS Classic in a single day without feeling like it was slowed down or unplayable. The PS Classic mini was a good console, It just wasn't what everybody expected. But we learned quickly that was because there were remastered versions of the Activision titles released on PS4 in the months/years following. So ideally the purpose of it was to release games that otherwise will absolutely never get re-released, like Destruction Derby and Jumping Flash, and the PS1 version of Rainbow Six.
That's a great analogy! Tekken 3 and Tag are a couple of my favorite fighting games and I own them, so I never even tried it on the classic. I still have the rhythm for it even if I don't play it as often. I would be curious to try it. Bad controllers give me more fits in a fighting game than lag or fps. Like a move I can pull off almost every time, but with a different Dpad, it just doesn't freakin work half the time. And I start thinking I've totally lost it. But then I go back to an original PS controller vs a knock off and it starts working almost every time. I'm glad I did grab a ps1 classic when I did given how nice of an emulation platform it has become too for the other games.
The 50 hz PAL versions of many of the games, $100 price tag, bland interface, & relatively weak game list were the PS mini's biggest offenses. Upgrading the system with AutoBleem, USB memory stick, OTG adaper, 8BitDo dongle, & any bluetooth controller make it my favorite mini console. I still want the TG-16 & CoreGrafx minis, though.
The audio lag bothers me way more than the input lag. I consider it largely unforgivable they major companies with these supposedly talented people at ME can't synchronize the audio and video, yet people working on retroarch (for free) can.
The audio lag is nearly unnoticeable, at least to me, when playing shooters with everything going on. But you're right it's noticeable much more in platformers and other games like platformers where you can more clearly see sounds happen after actions. I'm not sure where the challenge comes in, but I doubt it's a matter of being lazy. Retroarch and PC emulators have the benefit of powerful processing on modern computers, while these mini systems have to be produced cheap on a budget, with a processor that likely costs less than $35. I remember it's an issue that the genesis mini had too. If I was interviewing them, that would definitely be a question I asked, as you know members of the team have an answer, but the question was never directly asked.
@@ShmupJunkie I have extensive experience modding the Genesis Mini and S/NES Classics and installing retroarch on them in place of the stock emulator slightly improves input lag and dramatically improves sound lag (to a point of being negligible). But I wholeheartedly agree with you that if you're good enough at these games, you can generally overcome input lag. Unless we're taking about something like Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! or other twitch-speed games.
... there IS awful input lag though. Christ smh, hell I play on a Raspberry pi and its nowhere near as bad as the mini. And it's also obviously emulation. The input lag isnt the only problem, the audio lag and horrible video shimmer is MUCH worse. The input lag IS most definitely there. But I wouldn't say its unbearable... however they shouldn't be getting a pass with this release,
Lovelorn88 Nick I would never argue there isn’t lag... my own measurements of 7-8.5 frames of which 3.5-5 come from the mini show it for all to see. The real question is... is it worse than the other mini consoles? I tested my Genesis mini to compare and got similar numbers. Just was beyond the scope of this video to post. I haven’t tested every mini but I wouldn’t be surprised to see little variance between them. Mini consoles aren’t for everyone. But if someone is going to complain that a game is unplayable compared to others I’ll want to see some tests to back it up. Otherwise it’s sour grapes
@@ShmupJunkie hmm. I might be taking your video abit to personal then. I posted on a few FB groups that I was very disappointed with the Turbografx mini and how it has not so good emulation. And they people on fb have been replaying with a link to your video say that I probably just suck at the game LOL. I dont talk much about the other minis because I wasnt nearly as hyped as I was for the Turbo mini 'turbografx was my first introduction to gaming'
So far I've had 3 people link your video to me and say *the emulation is fine you just suck* lol some even called me a boomer 🤣😂🤣 when my main gripe is the God awful audio lag and screen shimmer. Mostly apparent with R-Type with the screen shimmer
But yeah. Unfortunately none of the minis have great emulation,
Lovelorn88 Nick 🤣 this little video is getting around. I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t glad that it may be helping just a tiny bit to balance some of the negativity out there on this mini. It was part of the reason I set out to make these reviews. As I think there is a difference between being critical and overly harsh. It is a $99 mini box after all. And I think the overall experience of it is wonderful despite the typical flaws you get with a mini. I’m not alone in that assertion as even the reviews that unfairly label LoT as unplayable had an overall quite positive impression of this mini as a whole. That being said it’s still important to be critical of things that could have been done better, like the shimmer on some games you mentioned. In my first part 1 vid I ripped into the terrible crt filter which I personally find more disappointing than some audio delay which I rarely notice especially on a shooter. If we don’t critique we don’t get better product in the future. Your points on the shimmer are valid as it’s something that could have been done better and I fully planned to mention it when I get to those parts of my reviews on it. In fact upcoming hacks may prove it can be fixed. I more take issue with anyone throwing the baby out with the bath water. For me those things don’t ruin the experience nor does the typical mini lag make anything unplayable. Thus my video taking some folks to task about calling it that as it says more about them than the console. But simply pointing out issues is part of the critique and your points are valid. I think for most, including myself, they are minor in the grand scheme of an overall great package. So in my earlier vids I point out that despite the minor flaws, imo of course, this mini is a can’t miss for me. And I spend more time focusing on my favorite games and aspects themselves vs harping on the issues... but they should still be mentioned and put into perspective. No doubt.
@@ShmupJunkie yeah, for me the audio lag was a big one. I noticed it especially with Bonk Revenge. When playing on the Mini then going to the Raspberry pi it made the mini feel like emulation and the Pi feel like hardware LOL. I feel pointing out these issues are really needed! But unfortunately when I do this I get told I suck and linked to your video LMFAO. buuuuut that's the nature of things, I dont believe your video was meant to be used as such
Also Lords Of thunder is just as playable as it is on the pi lol. 'I dont own a Turbografx CD' but I will say the audio lag or delay was annoying. Input lag is ever so noticeable much more then it was for me on the pi. But definitely NOT unplayable
Lovelorn88 Nick I’m only in one Turbo fb group I know of so I’m not in the loop on some of the others. Definitely wasn’t my intention that anyone who has a valid issue with the mini that they suck lol. In fact not being good at the game doesn’t make you suck either that would be a crappy thing to say. My suck was reserved for people not being able to play and then complaining about it online or in videos. I’ve got my gripes too I just like it for what it is. You’ve given me something I’d like to test though. I’d like to see if I can run a test on how many ms of audio delay exists between the action and sound. And if that delay also exists on real hardware and if so how much. I have a suspicion but the numbers will tell the story. It could be that it’s in fact far worse. I’m just not willing to make that claim by ear and want to see what I get.
This is a compound problem. First, you yourself say you add 3-4 frames of lag to the game, PLUS, you are using HDMI (that's at least another frame added) AND the lag that most TVs have, it gives a total of at least 5-6 frames of lag minimum, and with bad TVs, even more. My 47 inch TV adds like 100 ms of lag even in game mode by HDMI, most of it goes away with an HDMI to VGA adapter.
So, there you go, you have games that are very sensitive to lag (unlike most modern games), with lag from the emulation, the crappy emulation that adds to the emulation on pc, plus the HDMI lag, plus the tv lag.
And this is someone that was raised playing the Nemesis/Gradius on the MSX. I can play them on bluemsx on my pc, the emulation is good and the monitor has very little lag.
You probably noticed in my video that I provided the complete numbers as well including every component in the chain. Including my display.Without a doubt using a poor display with poor scaling would make it even worse. And you're correct that using a good PC for emulation is very different as it has a lot better performance so it would have less lag as well. 100ms of lag for a TV is massive I would imagine any game would be hard to play on that. If your lag goes away when using a VGA adapter into your display (that's pretty rare for a TV to still have vga), then it's the HDMI input board and processing that is creating all that lag, not the HDMI cable itself. That is the one item you are mistaken. A standard HDMI cable, or any cable in itself, provides no delay as it travels, for all intents and purposes, at the speed of an electrical charge. HDMI cables that have additional scaling/processing built in, like those cheap gaming cables are another story. But just a run of the mill cable adds nothing and I've yet to see a single technical article that shows otherwise. This is coming from someone that does Pro AV for a living. The HDMI transport at the source and TV, and the processing is a different story. But a regular cable itself has no lag. If your TV plays better over VGA, it's your VGA input that has faster/better processing than it's HDMI input so you are seeing much better performance. Which makes sense. But it's not the actual cable unless the cable is faulty. That's not including that your HDMI to VGA converter/scaler is also adding delay, but likely less than the poor HDMI processing on the TV. So you are seeing an improvement.
Thanks for the answer. HDMI DOES provide with input lag vs a CRT, precisely ONE frame of input lag, that is the nature of HDMI, you have to send the whole image at once. That's the minimum I can get my MiSTer FPGA running in my gaming monitor. That lag (tiny, but it still exists) is gone while playing on CRT.
Same with USB, it also adds some lag, best case scenario, with 1000 hz polling and no lag controller, it's 1ms, usually 3-10 ms.
The thing is, if you add up everything, you get lag, and that sometimes is enough to not avoid the bullet that was going for you.
Of course, you have to play a lot the games in order to get good, but one thing doesn't cancel the other.
@@ShmupJunkie See, that's what I mean about people trusting myths collected on the internet rather than pure science, out of who knows where ppl just state popular generalties like 'HDMI has 1 frame of lag', 'most TVs lag anyway', 'flat panels frame drawing time is lag crts don't have', 'upscaling, or low specs, or my gamepad's religion, the ambient temperature, whatever...adds lag' etc, while even test reviews show them that's definitely wrong or far from being always true and there's science to demonstrate, with proper testing devices and software just in front of their eyes telling them each case individually.
It's the problem with the internet; people produce pharaonic amounts of sensational BS which is so easy for them to repeat, but extremely tedious for anyone to refute to prove it's indeed BS, that's called the bullshit asymmetry principle or 'Brandolini's Law, and usually makes the poor individual who tries hard to defend the truth extremely unpopular. :D
vanguardcat I had to look up Brandolini thanks for that bit of humor. This whole thing reminds me of the old myth busters show. They seemed to do alright 😎. Now you’ve got me thinking about doing a myth busting episode on all these things haha. I only fear for the time expenditure in the comments section afterward. And it’s not like a lot of these things haven’t been addressed and tested before just maybe not in a video format. But I’ve got a ton hardware to do it being in AV, so maybe it’s something that would be fun to attempt as a series of episodes each focusing on a topic. And I could certainly have some fun with it. But ultimately I’d want to do it right with proper research so maybe it could prove useful over time. When it comes up in arguments online one could just link to a video 🤷♂️.
vanguardcat as an aside I’ve been following the RetroRGB channel for years now. I appreciate a lot of his technical stuff. I’m not always on board with some of the elitism I see coming out of that community, as was obvious by the snobbery you see in many lag discussions and the discounting of solutions that don’t live up to their most stringent of standards. But I appreciate a lot of the detail that comes out of it, even if I don’t always agree with the interpretation of the data afterward.
Yeah i just got mine recently and big time lag, on all the games i hope there can be an update to fix this. Meantime I'm gonna just use my duo rx. The original is better anyway
I would be willing to bet your display is adding a lot of that lag you are feeling on the mini which has been really common. I've had many others come to me later and say they tried it on a better performing TV and it made a big difference. I've had no problems playing through most of the games on the mini, but my display adds less than a frame in my setup. Of course nothing compares to the original I still love playing on my Duo as well. But the mini is nice for people who can't afford the real deal and don't want to mess with emulating on their computer. Don't expect a fix at any point, it's a limitation of the cheaper hardware. The Genesis mini is the same way. The mini consoles always add a few frames of delay it's just how they are.
@@ShmupJunkie yeah maybe I'll try my other TV to see if there is a difference. I Also have an 8 series samsung so I'll try it out after the Clippers game and after I watch my bengals play! Lol
@@ShmupJunkie also bonks revenge is bad i can't even jump on the spring flower! Unless i got the turbo switches up its so bad. The bonus stages are impossible
JAKESTEED I used to watch the Bengals when Palmer was at QB I followed him from when he left SC as I’m from CA. Just make sure the Game Mode on the TV is on and the auto motion plus is turned off. Those cause the most delay for games. It definitely helps if you didn’t do that already anyway.