I really appreciate, you being you, and the food for thought. I am amongst a small of elder learners that learn online in different places and spaces, and a part of what I understand is the ʻlost generationʻ who is coming home to the olelo and restoring the broken line of native speakers, the first in my ohana to return to the olelo. In this, my perspective is, 3.5 years into the journey with teachers online, grammar books, video resources, looking at older texts, listening to the recordings, journaling, writing, studying mele forms, studying oli, that it seems most helpful to encourage every language learner to use whatever works for them, as an individual. For those of us, whom our ancestors planted us on the mainland (with more kanaka maoli living on the mainland than at "home") we do not have the luxury of being around families that come from an unbroken line of mana leo in the pae aina. How many are there? Maybe 500 or so from Niihau, other islands? I do not know. and Niihau is just ONE expression, when, the language varied from place to place, and also, amongst the social strata. We just do not have that luxury us kupuna who are planted in other lands, no access. We may find ourselves talking mostly to ourselves or speaking to people who are haole like ourselves just to get words out of our mouths. I personally have benefited GREATLY from the use of the kāhako and the ʻokina because it takes time and tremendous effort with an older brain to get to a place where one can understand context, and how context, well how the language flows in mele, in oli, in mana leo, in the written form, it is different. Even in the written form, how language is for the moʻolelo, how it is for telling about day to day things, the form seems different, how it is in newspapers, and with the newspapers having the religious propoganda with intentions to erase the Hawaiians. I totally get that there are nuances, and one must go to the voices of the land to catch that, but I am tremendously grateful for these modern markers. With that said, I love how much quicker it is to write without the ʻokina and the kahakō, and it is pretty cool to finally be arriving to a place where I can read outloud the texts without the modern markers. What I love about the essence of your work perhaps is this awareness that there exists the language in the walls of academia and schools, but then the language exists in families, in small communities. I hear stories of those who are mana leo speakers complaining about those who learn in schools not talking right, but where are these mano leo speakers to help those of us with NO OTHER option than to learn from grammar books and teachers who have been trained by colleges and other ways. Where are they stepping up to help us? If you arenʻt going to do anything to support, and only bad talk, I do not understand. it ignores kuleana, it ignores kapu aloha, it ignores many Hawaiian values. Keep up the great work! waiwai loa kau hana no hoi e!
I think, my heart wants to see Hawaiians united rather than divided. My cousin told me, that when she talked to my grandfather about the old days, that the overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom broke his heart, and it also pitted Hawaiians against each other. This is actually a texture of colonialism and erasure of the culture hand in hand with the non-native controlling belief systems that tied into deception and land thievery. One cousin always encourages me to ask myself, what type of Hawaiian do you want to be? So, whether you teach or use the kahakō or not, whether you learn with the kahakō or not, I say thank you, because of your effort, my ancestors are no longer being erased. I think actually the observations of Nany Vearyʻs grandmother were correct, the Hawaiian language as it was, has died, things changed so much with the coming of Western ways. My notion is, it inside of us, for those with ancestry, and we can ask directly our ancestors for support and insight in learning, and to have clarity and intentions that align with what is good for the lāhui and for the world.
That last point about it being faster to write and text, I totally feel that lmao. I kaʻu kakau ana, aohe kahako a okina, no ka mea, loihi ke kakau lima. Moloa au. Aka, ina e ao aku, loaa ke kahako me okina. The only times where apostrophe are absolutely necessary are with the possessive 'my' and 'I/me' words. Otherwise, no need. Mahalo nui loa iaoe nau hana maikai!
Aia keia ia oe. Ke au ao aku i kekahi haumana, puana au i kela me keia hua olelo. Pela oia e maopopo ai ia ia ka puana ana. Pela no hoi au i ao ai. Hoolohe aku la i ka poe na lakou ka olelo ma o ka lola (recording). Clinton Kanahele Collection, Ka Leo Hawaii, me ka Oral History Collection. The original orthography made use of the apostrophe (') and a dash (-) for different reasons but not consistently. Often times that ka'u/kau (mine) wasn't distinguished. pretty interesting to read those newspaper. mahalo nui ia oe no keia hui walaau ana o kaua🤙
Another great video! Really appreciated the part about other sounds such as “ma leila/lila” and the reduction of the ‘a’ in Waimea. I’ve been trying to get accustomed to these types of pronunciations through listening to resources like the Clinton Kanahele tapes. I also noticed others like maika’i often becoming ‘meike’i’ and wau almost becoming 'wou.' I’d love a video going deeper into some of these patterns and where/when they commonly occur.
Mahalo! Well I give you props for putting in the time to listen to that collection. Only 20 recording, but packed full of knowledge. Keep doing that! You are 100% right with "meikei" and "wou." I mentioned this in another comment, but what you're experiencing with the spoken word allows you to hear my take on okina and kahako. You've heard the spoken word, and the written word doesn't accurately represent it. That's okay, but it's invaluable to know that distinction. Really appreciate you sharing🤙
Mahalo for this! I think you could make an argument for using diacritics on street signs and maps too. Would help folks with pronunciation when they aren't familiar with a place, and help preserve the integrity of our inoa aina. They could also be used stylistically in things like poetry to emphasize certain aspects of pronunciation. One small thing, the ipa was designed to describe all the sounds in all the world's languages, not just english!
I know. I was just only comparing it to English because most students of the language come from English. Like I said with Waimea, there are no symbols that exist to help with its pronunciation. Even in a common word like “kakou,” speaker of the language fail to pronounce the ‘u’ or the ‘ou’ sound comes out as ‘ow’ sound as in “cow.” Those are just 2 common ones that I hear mispronounced, not only by beginners, but speakers of Hawaiian as well.
Omitting those 2 letters is no big deal for manaleo, when the rest catch up they can do the same. Going further the use of the English alphabet standardizing the Polynesian languages is a kerfuffle with wh = f/ nga = g/ w = ua. Uahine, Wahine, Vahine. Spell it according to how you speak it. If I want to say Ka Uai/Ka Wai over Ka Vai then spell it accordingly for the benefit of the reader, I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill
😆mole hill. Hawaiians wanted a written form of the language. Consequently, we have one of, if not the largest depositories of written material in Polynesian. So that's a success in and of itself. I just think, we should keep that original orthography. If a better one is proposed in the future we can have that conversation.
I think for native speakers or 2nd language speakers that have been around native speakers, they feel out of place because their olelo can seem to others as grammatically incorrect when thats how they heard and say it. So your manao is pono, new speakers need to speak and not be shame to olelo, because olelo is making a comeback and i appreciate kakou a pau even malihini taking time to learn and apply it to their ola. I was in the store the other day and this kepani wahine olelo mai, "E kala mai" and i had to do a double take 👀👀 had to make sure the olelo was coming from her 😂😂😂😂 but I mahalo her for speaking my olelo Kupuna. so e na kanaka me na poe olelo hawaii, E olelo MAU! MAU ana kakou 🤙🏽🤙🏽
I think we get side tracked with the over emphasis on written language. I don't know about other Hawaiians, I started learning because I wanted to SPEAK my kupuna's language. Writing was secondary in my mind. I'm glad you said that part about encouraging people to speak. I want our people to learn and speak. Mahlihini can too and those who have know their place but I am completely supportive. Intentions are important though. Some people use olelo as a party trick yeah. I don't support that.
Top-notch production! I engage with mostly mainland ukulele people who say "you-ka-lay-lee" so I try to use the okina when possible to remind them that I intend the Hawaiian pronunciation. Otherwise, even at my low level olelo I tend to omit, if only to annoy the institution people! 🙂 FWIW, I get smashed sports announcer vibes from your vocal processing. Maybe less compressor/limiter next time? 🤙
You may be annoying people if you omit it, but I don't mind 😆. For the compressor/limiter, what part of the vid are you thinking of or is it the whole video?
Aloha Kumu. What about the word lanai? It can be a porch and it can be the island. With the kahako and okina, it's the ISLAND. Without the kahako and the okina it's a PORCH. Please help. Mahalo.
Aloha kaua. Sure thing! Here's an example to think about. This year I had a 3rd year college student come to me for tutoring. The student has only learned with okina and kahako. As we are reading we come across the words lōʻihi, ʻia, and heiau, and kūʻauhau. Even with the okina and kahako present, the student fails to pronounce these words correctly several times. Students must listen to native speakers if they are going to actually pronounce words correctly. No amount of reading will help you develop good pronunciation and speech. You have to listen to hundreds of hours of native speakers to accomplish that.
How will people learn from books when the last native Hawaiian speaker will have died? Of course best will be to learn from audio or video to train your ear, but what about people who learn by reading? I think youʻre very wrong about stripping the diacritics. Youʻre not helping people who want to learn how to pronounce Hawaiian words properly without the help of someone who would pronounce them. First off, itʻs not Waimea but "Vaimea". About Laila/Lila, same can be transposed in English, weʻll never have a teacher teach that itʻs Vetchtable and not Ve-ge-table. The Phonetics writing system does it. You can use phonetics to write Laila spoken as Lila. Take a 95-year-old Hawaiian speaker (if they still exist), and give him a sentence from one of those old newspapers without the context and heʻll be lost. Put the diacritics on and we get more meaning and more accurate pronunciation out of it. The ʻokina and kahakō is indeed an incomplete system to represent the oral language ; Yet it is far more precise than to not use them. Also, itʻs not because diacritics do not render the full picture of the Hawaiian oral language that we should stop using them. Donʻt think people will get closer to a "true" Hawaiian oral language by learning from the old newspapers just because they donʻt carry diacritics, or that the old people who donʻt use diacritics in the written language but still speak it as their first language should be an example for non-native speakers to learn the language better without diacritics. The good thing about these old newspapers is that they were written by fluent speakers, therefore carrying richness in terms, idioms, play on words, sayings, etc., but crucially fail to disambiguate words when taken out of context. Students will learn more vocabulary and more idioms for sure, but will lag in pronouncing terms properly. That is why UH embarked on the difficult task of placing diacritics on many of those old newspapers as sometimes "bare" words remain open to interpretation and may have received a diacritical mark or may have not. As to how Hawaiian words are pronounced, an accent evolves with time. The Hawaiian accent born from the Marquesas migrations was transformed over the centuries as people mixed. So, when youʻre telling people this is how a Hawaiian word should be pronounced, youʻre actually saying "this is how most people used to pronounce it before the language lost its steam". I think youʻre confusing your students by saying that learning without diacritics by going into the old papers will have them learn more about the language when in fact, itʻs the fluency and richness of the language that will make them learn more. And yes, they will learn even more if these old newspapers have been enhanced by the diacritics. Finally, diacritics make it easier for speakers of another "Polynesian" language to learn Hawaiian because they can trace it back to cognates that they know of, like ʻua/kua ; hōu/foʻou ; maikaʻi/maitaki etc). Just like tone markers in the Tongan language make it easier for people to learn the language, as opposed to not using them. Man, I like your videos very much, Iʻve seen many of them, you do a great job every time, but on this topic I think youʻre on the wrong path, e hoa. Me ke aloha pono iā ʻoe.
I'm trying to learn my ancestral language that survives only through writing. Unfortunately, it had undergone a similar fate to that which you mentioned. Due to inconsistent orthography, the true phonetics of the dialect continuum are forever lost, forcing its returning speakers to piece together a modern variety that abandons some of the original propriety thereof. That is a fate I do not wish on my Hawaiian brothers and sisters, God forbid.
What language is that? Fortunately, we still have native speakers around of all ages. We also have hundreds if not thousands of hours of video and audio of native speakers. So although the orthography, old and new doesn’t represent the spoke. language, we have more than enough resources to learn and perpetuate the authentic Hawaiian voice.
I really appreciate, you being you, and the food for thought. I am amongst a small of elder learners that learn online in different places and spaces, and a part of what I understand is the ʻlost generationʻ who is coming home to the olelo and restoring the broken line of native speakers, the first in my ohana to return to the olelo. In this, my perspective is, 3.5 years into the journey with teachers online, grammar books, video resources, looking at older texts, listening to the recordings, journaling, writing, studying mele forms, studying oli, that it seems most helpful to encourage every language learner to use whatever works for them, as an individual. For those of us, whom our ancestors planted us on the mainland (with more kanaka maoli living on the mainland than at "home") we do not have the luxury of being around families that come from an unbroken line of mana leo in the pae aina. How many are there? Maybe 500 or so from Niihau, other islands? I do not know. and Niihau is just ONE expression, when, the language varied from place to place, and also, amongst the social strata. We just do not have that luxury us kupuna who are planted in other lands, no access. We may find ourselves talking mostly to ourselves or speaking to people who are haole like ourselves just to get words out of our mouths. I personally have benefited GREATLY from the use of the kāhako and the ʻokina because it takes time and tremendous effort with an older brain to get to a place where one can understand context, and how context, well how the language flows in mele, in oli, in mana leo, in the written form, it is different. Even in the written form, how language is for the moʻolelo, how it is for telling about day to day things, the form seems different, how it is in newspapers, and with the newspapers having the religious propoganda with intentions to erase the Hawaiians. I totally get that there are nuances, and one must go to the voices of the land to catch that, but I am tremendously grateful for these modern markers. With that said, I love how much quicker it is to write without the ʻokina and the kahakō, and it is pretty cool to finally be arriving to a place where I can read outloud the texts without the modern markers. What I love about the essence of your work perhaps is this awareness that there exists the language in the walls of academia and schools, but then the language exists in families, in small communities. I hear stories of those who are mana leo speakers complaining about those who learn in schools not talking right, but where are these mano leo speakers to help those of us with NO OTHER option than to learn from grammar books and teachers who have been trained by colleges and other ways. Where are they stepping up to help us? If you arenʻt going to do anything to support, and only bad talk, I do not understand. it ignores kuleana, it ignores kapu aloha, it ignores many Hawaiian values. Keep up the great work! waiwai loa kau hana no hoi e!
I think, my heart wants to see Hawaiians united rather than divided. My cousin told me, that when she talked to my grandfather about the old days, that the overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom broke his heart, and it also pitted Hawaiians against each other. This is actually a texture of colonialism and erasure of the culture hand in hand with the non-native controlling belief systems that tied into deception and land thievery. One cousin always encourages me to ask myself, what type of Hawaiian do you want to be? So, whether you teach or use the kahakō or not, whether you learn with the kahakō or not, I say thank you, because of your effort, my ancestors are no longer being erased. I think actually the observations of Nany Vearyʻs grandmother were correct, the Hawaiian language as it was, has died, things changed so much with the coming of Western ways. My notion is, it inside of us, for those with ancestry, and we can ask directly our ancestors for support and insight in learning, and to have clarity and intentions that align with what is good for the lāhui and for the world.
That last point about it being faster to write and text, I totally feel that lmao. I kaʻu kakau ana, aohe kahako a okina, no ka mea, loihi ke kakau lima. Moloa au. Aka, ina e ao aku, loaa ke kahako me okina.
The only times where apostrophe are absolutely necessary are with the possessive 'my' and 'I/me' words. Otherwise, no need.
Mahalo nui loa iaoe nau hana maikai!
Aia keia ia oe. Ke au ao aku i kekahi haumana, puana au i kela me keia hua olelo. Pela oia e maopopo ai ia ia ka puana ana. Pela no hoi au i ao ai. Hoolohe aku la i ka poe na lakou ka olelo ma o ka lola (recording). Clinton Kanahele Collection, Ka Leo Hawaii, me ka Oral History Collection.
The original orthography made use of the apostrophe (') and a dash (-) for different reasons but not consistently. Often times that ka'u/kau (mine) wasn't distinguished. pretty interesting to read those newspaper.
mahalo nui ia oe no keia hui walaau ana o kaua🤙
Another great video! Really appreciated the part about other sounds such as “ma leila/lila” and the reduction of the ‘a’ in Waimea. I’ve been trying to get accustomed to these types of pronunciations through listening to resources like the Clinton Kanahele tapes. I also noticed others like maika’i often becoming ‘meike’i’ and wau almost becoming 'wou.' I’d love a video going deeper into some of these patterns and where/when they commonly occur.
Mahalo! Well I give you props for putting in the time to listen to that collection. Only 20 recording, but packed full of knowledge. Keep doing that!
You are 100% right with "meikei" and "wou." I mentioned this in another comment, but what you're experiencing with the spoken word allows you to hear my take on okina and kahako. You've heard the spoken word, and the written word doesn't accurately represent it. That's okay, but it's invaluable to know that distinction.
Really appreciate you sharing🤙
Mahalo for this! I think you could make an argument for using diacritics on street signs and maps too. Would help folks with pronunciation when they aren't familiar with a place, and help preserve the integrity of our inoa aina. They could also be used stylistically in things like poetry to emphasize certain aspects of pronunciation.
One small thing, the ipa was designed to describe all the sounds in all the world's languages, not just english!
I know. I was just only comparing it to English because most students of the language come from English.
Like I said with Waimea, there are no symbols that exist to help with its pronunciation. Even in a common word like “kakou,” speaker of the language fail to pronounce the ‘u’ or the ‘ou’ sound comes out as ‘ow’ sound as in “cow.”
Those are just 2 common ones that I hear mispronounced, not only by beginners, but speakers of Hawaiian as well.
Omitting those 2 letters is no big deal for manaleo, when the rest catch up they can do the same. Going further the use of the English alphabet standardizing the Polynesian languages is a kerfuffle with wh = f/ nga = g/ w = ua. Uahine, Wahine, Vahine. Spell it according to how you speak it. If I want to say Ka Uai/Ka Wai over Ka Vai then spell it accordingly for the benefit of the reader, I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill
😆mole hill. Hawaiians wanted a written form of the language. Consequently, we have one of, if not the largest depositories of written material in Polynesian. So that's a success in and of itself. I just think, we should keep that original orthography. If a better one is proposed in the future we can have that conversation.
Manaleo is not a correct term for a native speaker it should be poʻe kuakahi
@@pirateofthepacific9687 you'll have to take that up with Larry & Pila
I think for native speakers or 2nd language speakers that have been around native speakers, they feel out of place because their olelo can seem to others as grammatically incorrect when thats how they heard and say it. So your manao is pono, new speakers need to speak and not be shame to olelo, because olelo is making a comeback and i appreciate kakou a pau even malihini taking time to learn and apply it to their ola. I was in the store the other day and this kepani wahine olelo mai, "E kala mai" and i had to do a double take 👀👀 had to make sure the olelo was coming from her 😂😂😂😂 but I mahalo her for speaking my olelo Kupuna. so e na kanaka me na poe olelo hawaii, E olelo MAU! MAU ana kakou 🤙🏽🤙🏽
I think we get side tracked with the over emphasis on written language. I don't know about other Hawaiians, I started learning because I wanted to SPEAK my kupuna's language. Writing was secondary in my mind.
I'm glad you said that part about encouraging people to speak. I want our people to learn and speak. Mahlihini can too and those who have know their place but I am completely supportive. Intentions are important though. Some people use olelo as a party trick yeah. I don't support that.
Kakoo! moloa wau e kakau ia mau mea😂
😆He kumu no kela e kakau ole ai
Mahalo no kou manao Palala.
Mahalo no hoi ia oe
Ola mau ka olelo Kupuna ✊❤️
Top-notch production! I engage with mostly mainland ukulele people who say "you-ka-lay-lee" so I try to use the okina when possible to remind them that I intend the Hawaiian pronunciation. Otherwise, even at my low level olelo I tend to omit, if only to annoy the institution people! 🙂 FWIW, I get smashed sports announcer vibes from your vocal processing. Maybe less compressor/limiter next time? 🤙
You may be annoying people if you omit it, but I don't mind 😆. For the compressor/limiter, what part of the vid are you thinking of or is it the whole video?
@@kaalala The whole thing sounds pretty slammed to my ears. I always struggle with lavs, but happy to kokua if I can. Feel free to reach out.
@@kaalala Low priority. No one else probably notices, but something to maybe revisit if you're using a preset. I'm an anal sound type, kala mai
Do you teach online olelo classes?
Yes. Check out the link in the description. I do online tutorials too for people who prefer to meet and work one on one.
Aloha Kumu. What about the word lanai? It can be a porch and it can be the island. With the kahako and okina, it's the ISLAND. Without the kahako and the okina it's a PORCH. Please help. Mahalo.
Aloha kaua. Sure thing! Here's an example to think about.
This year I had a 3rd year college student come to me for tutoring. The student has only learned with okina and kahako. As we are reading we come across the words lōʻihi, ʻia, and heiau, and kūʻauhau.
Even with the okina and kahako present, the student fails to pronounce these words correctly several times.
Students must listen to native speakers if they are going to actually pronounce words correctly. No amount of reading will help you develop good pronunciation and speech. You have to listen to hundreds of hours of native speakers to accomplish that.
Meikai. sometimes writers gotta misspell words if they wanna have it read right.
How will people learn from books when the last native Hawaiian speaker will have died? Of course best will be to learn from audio or video to train your ear, but what about people who learn by reading? I think youʻre very wrong about stripping the diacritics. Youʻre not helping people who want to learn how to pronounce Hawaiian words properly without the help of someone who would pronounce them. First off, itʻs not Waimea but "Vaimea". About Laila/Lila, same can be transposed in English, weʻll never have a teacher teach that itʻs Vetchtable and not Ve-ge-table. The Phonetics writing system does it. You can use phonetics to write Laila spoken as Lila. Take a 95-year-old Hawaiian speaker (if they still exist), and give him a sentence from one of those old newspapers without the context and heʻll be lost. Put the diacritics on and we get more meaning and more accurate pronunciation out of it. The ʻokina and kahakō is indeed an incomplete system to represent the oral language ; Yet it is far more precise than to not use them. Also, itʻs not because diacritics do not render the full picture of the Hawaiian oral language that we should stop using them. Donʻt think people will get closer to a "true" Hawaiian oral language by learning from the old newspapers just because they donʻt carry diacritics, or that the old people who donʻt use diacritics in the written language but still speak it as their first language should be an example for non-native speakers to learn the language better without diacritics. The good thing about these old newspapers is that they were written by fluent speakers, therefore carrying richness in terms, idioms, play on words, sayings, etc., but crucially fail to disambiguate words when taken out of context. Students will learn more vocabulary and more idioms for sure, but will lag in pronouncing terms properly. That is why UH embarked on the difficult task of placing diacritics on many of those old newspapers as sometimes "bare" words remain open to interpretation and may have received a diacritical mark or may have not. As to how Hawaiian words are pronounced, an accent evolves with time. The Hawaiian accent born from the Marquesas migrations was transformed over the centuries as people mixed. So, when youʻre telling people this is how a Hawaiian word should be pronounced, youʻre actually saying "this is how most people used to pronounce it before the language lost its steam". I think youʻre confusing your students by saying that learning without diacritics by going into the old papers will have them learn more about the language when in fact, itʻs the fluency and richness of the language that will make them learn more. And yes, they will learn even more if these old newspapers have been enhanced by the diacritics. Finally, diacritics make it easier for speakers of another "Polynesian" language to learn Hawaiian because they can trace it back to cognates that they know of, like ʻua/kua ; hōu/foʻou ; maikaʻi/maitaki etc). Just like tone markers in the Tongan language make it easier for people to learn the language, as opposed to not using them. Man, I like your videos very much, Iʻve seen many of them, you do a great job every time, but on this topic I think youʻre on the wrong path, e hoa. Me ke aloha pono iā ʻoe.
I'm trying to learn my ancestral language that survives only through writing. Unfortunately, it had undergone a similar fate to that which you mentioned. Due to inconsistent orthography, the true phonetics of the dialect continuum are forever lost, forcing its returning speakers to piece together a modern variety that abandons some of the original propriety thereof. That is a fate I do not wish on my Hawaiian brothers and sisters, God forbid.
What language is that?
Fortunately, we still have native speakers around of all ages. We also have hundreds if not thousands of hours of video and audio of native speakers. So although the orthography, old and new doesn’t represent the spoke. language, we have more than enough resources to learn and perpetuate the authentic Hawaiian voice.
Youʻre pronouncing ʻīʻa when it is iʻa.