Nico's Photography Podcast - Kodak Alaris for Sale
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- Опубліковано 29 кві 2023
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In this podcast we talk about Kodak Alaris being for sale, what it could mean for color film photography and what we think made it happen.
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This explains many price increases and production cuts - to make things look better on the company for a sale... Your theory makes sense and it'd be nice for us to see Kodak getting the sales back. I believe prices will go back to reality for it seems they've been inflated by Alaris to prepare for the sale and, also, these rises have put many hypers and newcomers away for film photography. So, the only way to bring them back would be by making analog photography more viable again. From film to developing to having their 5x7 prints from the 1 hour shop - the whole process
It's important that everyone has a chance to buy film, so respect to yourselves for limiting 10 colour rolls per customer - to stop other retailers/eBayers flipping them for 3x the price!!
Thanks! Its a problem sadly and we try to have people have a chance to buy and enjoy film.
Couldn’t agree more with this reply!!! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Predatory resellers have helped wreck the film camera market, too.
Resellers can buy films to provide films to their countries. One customer buying films abroad could not stand the shipping cost of small film amount, they rather buy films to reseller with lower overall cost than buying abroad. Ang having multiple sources of films provides labs to continue processing films.
Mark Kleinman, City Editor at Sky News broke the story.
Kodak did have a factory in the UK and they only closed it in 2016.
Thanks for the info on the source. Will be sure to include it on the news this week.
Ok, I think this makes some sense. I have actually ordered some Kodak E100D, and I know that they literally do not care who they sell it to. I am clearly not making a movie with 1 400 ft roll of E100D at a residential address in Colorado. They were happy to sell it to me, and the person on the phone even said something to the effect of “You guys have probably been waiting a while for this stuff in bulk, hope you enjoy it!”. They clearly don’t care that they are undercutting Alaris, and I think if Kodak buys them out, we might be able to get so much cool stuff.
By the way, have you guys thought about buying Aerocolor 125 in size’s other than 120? They offer 5 inch and 8.5 inch rolls that could make super cheap sheet film, and also 61.5mm film that could be used to bulk roll 120/220/620.
I’ve been rolling my own 220 with Aviphot, and I would love to buy some 61.5mm film, but the MOQ is just too high for a single person like me who makes rolls in their spare time.
Same
An interesting set of circumstances, where co-owners of a film camera company speak on the industry itself.
Its our daily conversation as we are heavily invested in film continuing to exist. But we are talking from a more relaxed non official way.
Amazing! Thanks Nico for supporting the industry more and getting more info to everyone who loves this world. You could quit the news and just morph these into it. Altho the wearing the suit, desk, and news like graphics are pretty epic.
I have been shooting film since I received my first camera when I was 14 years old, in 1967. Going on my 69th year of my life I have various cameras, with different formats and I am a member of PHSNE (Photographic Historical Society of New England) which is a passionate group of film shooters. I have seen the best of the film market and the worst of the market, and currently this is the worst. I hope that Alaris gets out of this marketing business and lets Kodak handle the sales so the market will be viable again.
Film is more important than ever. With the advent of AI the provenance of an image is going to be crucial, being able to show the original image as a negative or transparency to confirm the truth of the picture is more relevant now than ever.
Very good analysis Nico. Making perfect sense. I worked in the camera store world in the 1990s, and can recall the days when our shelves had every single stock from Agfa, Kodak, Fuji and Ilford. Prices ranged from $2.49/roll for Agfa APX 100 to $12.99 for Kodak 400 Pro slide film (that's about $25 now, adjusted for inflation). Not much has changed in the distribution unfortunately and therein lies the problem. Fingers crossed Kodak acquires Alaris!
Hold on a dang second. TUCSON analog workshop?? Where are you located? We might be neighbors!
@@taylornoel Central Tucson friend
@@TucsonAnalogWorkshop I'm downtown! I've been thinking about trying to organize a photo walk down here with Lee at Monument Camera- any interest?
@@taylornoel Yes! let's do it. I am a 'regular' at Monument myself!
Watched the whole thing. Really great podcast, hope you guys keep it up, and that there’s enough interesting news to sustain it!
What almost never gets talked about in relation to film is darkroom printing. After digitising emulsions for a while I realised that I was missing out on 50% of the film process. Then I started printing and realised that it’s an art of its own. Few real artist left unfortunately, it’s just us amateurs.
Lots of real fine art photographers are left. New photographers would rather make the same mistakes all over again, as opposed to reading their books or attending their workshops. Or, they turn to Facebook experts who, with rare exception, are only expert in getting it all wrong.
@@davidkachel Photographers yes, but darkroom printers? Few famous photographers printed themselves. They relied on printers.
@@szabodaniel9447 Your statement is (can be) 100% wrong, depending on which "famous photographers" to whom you refer. If you mean fashion, product, reportage, portrait photographers, then yes, most of them used professional printers. If you are referring to fine art photographers, uh-uh. Though a handful no doubt did use outside printers, the vast majority of fine art photographers would never consider letting someone else print their work. In my entire career, far longer than I care to recall, I have never met one fine art photographer who didn't print his own work, never! If you understand what a "fine art photographer" is, you would understand that we all have to do our own printing, not only for financial reasons, but far more importantly, for aesthetic. Someone else simply can't do it, no matter how skilled he/she might be.
As for "missing out on 50% of the process", no, again. Printing is printing. It is an iterative, creative process. The only differences are that one is done sitting, while the other must be done standing, and with digital, there are more options for tools to accomplish exactly the same things, though sometimes on a grander scale.
@@davidkachelI agree, my statement wasn’t accurate (though I am not sure about drawing the line between Adams for example and Salgado). What I meant is that few professionals shoot film and print now-days. Ilford complained that while film sales are up, paper and chemistry sales are flat. People prefer to make digital images of photographic emulsions and toggle the contrast bar on a backlit computer screen instead of messing with paper and chemicals. It makes sense since screens is the default medium for visual art today, at least for the masses. How is darkroom printing going to survive if the younger generations are shunning prints?
@@szabodaniel9447 I don't distinguish between Salgado and any other fine art photographer, though obviously, his work is quite different from Adams'. Though few documentary photographers also qualify as fine art photographers, they are not exactly rare, either.
I take it from your response that when you say "professionals", you mean commercial photographers. Fine art photographers always have and continue to make their own prints. The reason for the demise of a lot of darkroom printing materials is that the amateur photographer no longer uses them, with very rare exception. The next biggest users after that were the portrait photographers, who, what few still exist, all print digitally these days. What is happening in photography today is very much the same thing that happened to painting in the 19th Century. Photography did not result in the end of painting, as many thought, but in the end of commercial painting, portraiture, in particular.
The advent of digital photography wiped out the family and vacation picture market and eradicated most of the commercial photographers. But artists were "freed up" to pursue less mundane work. (And some would say, to starve, but then, fine art photographers were accustomed to starving, so most never noticed the difference.)
10% of the "art" is in capturing the image, 99% in making the print (I lied about the 10%). Most people think that making a print is just a matter of making a reversal of the negative, on paper, and they think it takes a few seconds, or at most minutes. Most fine art photographers work on a single image for days. Some for weeks. It is a construction process. But, hardly anyone knows or understands that. Ansel Adams, according to one of his assistants, never made a single "straight print", that he saw, or knew about.
But it is extremely difficult to make what is commonly referred to as a "fine print" and these days, young photographers have no interest in working that hard. As soon as I tell someone it takes a good ten years or longer to learn how to print, their interest comes to an end. What they all want is what they see in the movies: jump around the studio for a few minutes with flashes popping and the camera whirring, and they're done.
There is also the fact that fine art photographers still make prints, they just don't make a lot of traditional silver-gelatin darkroom prints. That is because the inkjet printer can make excellent enlarged negatives, which have in turn, revived virtually all of the 19th Century printing methods, every one of which is far more beautiful than a common darkroom silver print. I don't make them anymore because everything I do/can make is far better. I do still make silver prints, but the ones that were being made before George Eastman ever had a glint in his eye about making and selling cameras and film.
Decades ago I hired a young wannabe fine art photographer in Peru, as an assistant. After one day of actual assistant work, he lost all interest in photography. Quite possibly, his interest waned because I had no half-naked young women dancing around in front of the camera.
Just one last thing. You said, "few real artists left unfortunately". That is also 100% wrong. The artists are still there. You just aren't looking for them in the right places. But if you want to learn from the masters, you had better hurry. Most are in their 60's to 80's, or worse and don't have a lot of patience with kids who want to do it the easy way.
keep this going
Thank you! We will keep going for sure.
This is really good, and I like the new format.
My town recently lost its only camera store. While talking with the owners and the sales staff during the going out of business sale they said that there was no money in selling cameras anymore. They said that they never made that much off the camera bodies but their share of the sale of lenses, flashes, filters and such was much higher than the camera bodies. So they made their money from that but about 15 yrs ago Canon, Nikon, Pentax and Minolta all changed that to where they got the same percentage as the camera bodies. They saw their margin really decrease and in the end they had to sell more bags, photo finishing, books and magazines to make ends meet.
Years ago I worked for a film processor in Seattle that was slowly getting into making the print cutters, film cutters and print bagging machines. They couldn't make the actual film and paper developers because Kodak had that so tied up in copyrights that it was impossible to do. The company finally went into a deal with a German company to build and sell their developing machines. When that happened all of a sudden they started having problems getting the chemicals and maintenance to keep our Kodak machines running.
Yo! Arild! :D This is awesome guys!
Great work guys, heaps of insight and nice looking setup. Looking forward to more NNP 😂
When bricks of 35mm Bold are available, I’m here for it 😂
I want the mold version
Kodak Sold
If "Rochester" doesn't buy Alaris, you can be sure the Chinese will.
Thats my main worry, not sure how bad it would be.
...and that would be bad.
I'm dubious about a Chinese rush for ownership: they owned Kodak's photography chemical business and went bankrupt. I think they would think twice about jumping back into that pool.
I grew up not far from Rochester in Kodak's golden years. For quite a long time those folks have made nothing but bad decisions.
hope not, would hate to have to give up film
Nothing would suprise me at this point if it does come to pass that Eastman Kodak buys back Alaris off the Pension Fund Administration. I do hope a theoretical reunited Kodak, updates their distribution channel for the 21st century, running with regional wholesalers who have their hand out for a mark up is so 20th century.
Love this format, hope you continue with the NPP
Thanks for your thougts! I shoot film since 1972. Of course I own a digi cam too. But I own still 3 film cams.
we need more of this
Just noticed the Mic installed on an tripod head 👍
Got to use what you got. Probably took us 2 hours to find all the cables, mics, tripods, etc…
Hahaha that mic stand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Love it
Sometimes you gotta go to your roots! It was chopped from some timber in my old job.
@@NicosPhotographyShow #amazing
Love the podcast! Are there any plans to make it available on a podcast service?
Thanks, I'm looking forward to the next one.
Cool chat, really interesting. Thanks for sharing!
I do have a comment regarding the 'cost of film VS digital' thing where I feel that the comparison always assumes digital shooters are buying the latest and most expensive camera gear whenever it comes out. I use a d610 that is over ten years old and the images it produces are not only amazing in quality for personal use but it is absolutely capable of professional work for weddings to portraits or landscape shooting. I spent the equivalent of 300 usd on this body and I've taken thousands of great photos with it and will never upgrade unless I want something different but not because of a quality issue. 24mpx is sufficient for amazing images if you have half a clue about creating an image. Heck, six mpx is enough but my 22 year old fuji s2 is having some power issues hence the d610. I started with film and I believe it is superior to digital in every way BUT to argue digital is as expensive as film is ludicrous IMHO. #filmsazombie
Good podcast!
Please do make this a thing! Much enjoyed. But then please also output an audio only rss feed. Would love to listen in my podcast app, rather then on UA-cam
Film and development is getting so expensive that the younger crowd is being priced out. Negative vibe isn't helping film stay around.
I'd follow your podcast for sure
Sounds like this could be a really good or potentially bad thing, guess we will have to wait and see. But for the most part I think things are looking good for Kodak if Eastman buys back the brand.
This was great - definitely keep this going, but also, why *not* invite other UA-camrs to talk with? Whether it's Jason from grainydays, David Hancock, or whoever, it'll just make it more interesting IMO.
Thanks! Living in Finland time zones makes it really hard to join USA guests, as I try to balance with family and work. But never say never.
@@NicosPhotographyShow you should invite me to the show, i shoot film once or twice a year. i work at the burger king drive thru. let me know.
@@bakeee You better be shooting the drive through, there’s a photo project there for sure.
I hope you will decide to post these podcasts on other platforms as well. I'd love to add you to my list, but listen to podcast almost exclusively while driving.
This was great really enjoyed the chat. Would love to hear your guesses as to what if anything happens with Kodak chemicals.
It is possible that Fujifilm is making their own emulsion and shipping the ripened gelatin noodles to Eastman Kodak for coating and confectioning. C200 is absolutely Gold 200, but I haven’t checked out the “new” 400 film
I would love to shoot mold 200
So THAT'S why they were rapidly raising prices, to increase their future financial projections to increase the company sale price.
Dont trust as a reliable source of anything. 😜
Also, an afterthought: let's not forget there are people behind every single company that want to make money. I don't believe there is someone who is like "oh no, we must save film and make sure everyone gets their tri-x" .. it's more like "how can we make the most money in this situation?"
Hopefully Kodak continue to produce film. Without Kodak, color film photography will be virtually dead. I have now switched to digital full frame for “35mm” type photography. I now only shoot 120 and 4x5 color film. Most of my work is now being shot on black and white.
The funny scenario would be to see Eastman Kodak getting Fuji film business 😆
I do buy a lot of MP film. And at least in the past few months, supply for this also was pretty short. This could obviously be due to another reason, and since its only appeared in the last months it probably has.
One of the reasons Kodak film has gotten more expensive is Alaris's hand in the cash drawer. When you add another middleman, they want to be paid. If Kodak drops Alaris and resumes marketing their own film themselves, maybe the price will moderate.
But I wouldn't hold my breath.
Starts at 6:23
By the way, does anybody have any information about the situation of Tetenal? It has been making much of the Kodak chemistry for the European market. There were rumors of the company having big trouble this spring. Most of the chemistry is unavailable with European dealers at the moment, but Tetenal own webshop seems to be working. Any up to date information appreciated.
Well, you can shoot b&w with some color film... or just print it on B&W paper :)
Fotocasion no consigue casi nada! Puede que tengas toda la razón, Nico.
No wonder processing C-41 in my country is so cheap, USD 1.73 per roll, the chemistry business is here😂 Even ECN-2 processing is fair, at USD 3.77 per roll. But ECN-2 takes 7 days instead of 2. So now I just buy expired consumer film on second-hand stuff trading app at USD 4.34 per roll and shoot them 4 stops over the box speed. Works out well.
As far as china is concerned i belive they already produce the cartridges fir Kodaks Super8 product line.
nico is right ... they can't make steady supply of gold/color plus, but they can make fuji 200 ... that's fishy
Don's Used Photo Equipment youtube has been talking about some of these things in the US since 2019. We had the Ilford rep talk at the store and he went over the whole film story. It was 2011 that the return of film started. Kodak destroyed most of their machines that confection the film. That is the bottle neck.
In all seriousness there’s no good reason for Eastman Kodak to acquire Alaris as this is not their core business anymore and Eastman management is accountable towards its shareholders. One possibility could be that Eastman would not mind seeing Eastman folding and then having no more restrictions to sell to consumers.
You can be a "supporter" of all the price increase you want, just don't cry when much sooner than later, you hear that Kodak went bankrupt. People all around me are selling off their gear and buy digital Fuji's...
Nico, No New Videos???
You're forgetting that Kodak Alaris makes lots of stuff outside film. Alaris loss and the decision from the PPF to sell it is not only decided by film sells. Also I don't think the deal with Eastman forbid them from selling still photographic film to other company as we have seen from cinestill and lomography but obviously this deal is obscure and I haven't seen official report about it so maybe you're right with the time limit. Anyway I don't really believe in the conspiracy story.
(maybe the deal with cinestill, lomography and Fuji is with Alaris and not Eastman; don't know how that work)
Cinestill is Vision3, so it's not still photographic film. No idea where Lomography get their film, tbh.
@@albertodattilo7614 Lomography get their color film from Inoviscoat and Kodak (directly from Eastman I guess but I'm not sure). That why I said that Eastman probably can sell their film (still or not) to different customers, be it fuji or kodak alaris.
You mean Alaris sells a lot of stuff outside of film. It's mainly a marketing company producing no physical product themselves.
@Phillip Banes Kodak alaris makes lot of stuff outside film. There's the Alaris scanner buisness, kodak moment does some print stuff etc... Of course only Eastman Kodak "makes" film
I guess Alaris owns just the branding, and Kodak maintained the rights to the material, with only an exclusivity agreement to prevent them from doing something else with it. I imagine Kodak can't sell Kodak/Kodak Professional branded products, but if Fuji wants to make a few pennies and keep their name in film, I say bring on Fuji Pro 400 P and 160 P. ha ha.
This is a good question. I don' t believe that Alaris acquired all the 4100 patents owned by Eastman. Of course, internet is full of "specialists" knowing for sure, that color film production will end now. As they have known for more than 20 years now...
This is what I don't understand. Back when there was no digital cameras and the entire world was shooting film consumer and profesional, How did Kodak keep up with out a problem? Now that less than 5% of the world uses film they can barely keep up. You would think there would be an abundance of film and prices would be much less.
Too many of the factories have been scrapped, so, there is that. Illford/Harman is still doing so well because they didn't scale down, they just have 25 times the market share they did when they where a tiny British manufacturer.
Eastman Kodak once had several coating lines in multiple buildings, now there is only one. Each product must wait in line to be coated now
Kodak has proven itself, over the last 20 years, to be the biggest screwups and the shortest on insight, since some nitwit at Apple said, "Hey, fellas, why don't we fire Steve Jobs?"!!! Someone with foresight needs to get hold of Kodak's machinery and products, before Kodak commits their final and fatal, screwup!!! (Don't think so? Allow me to remind you that Kodak owned the entire digital photography world, lock, stock and barrel, but decided to do nothing with it, because they were absolutely certain that digital wasn't going anywhere!)
hearing so many "declaring bankruptcy" brings me inmidiatly to Micheal Scott declaring bankruptcy in the middle of the office outloud, ahahahahahah
If someone is going to buy Kodak they will want to turn it into a money making machine. This wont end well.
1:01:00 they are also this stupid people saying 120mm 😭
You really need to get to the subject matter earlier in the video
We really would like to, but this is long form and we enjoy taking our time.