The problem with your giraffe method is that giraffes are not all the same height, making it difficult to accurately estimate the 20m drafting distance
I think a lot of unfair penalties will be handed out. There has to be a little more give in the rules. I've seen it so many times on hilly courses where the rider in front hits the hill and sits up, the rider behind automatically rolls closer at the start of that hill, then the rider in front stands up and puts on the power. The rider behind went into the zone but due to the rider in front can't complete the pass - penalty. Completely unintentional drafting, was not done to gain anything and in most cases did not gain anything. Drafting penalties should be given for blatant and consistent drafting for gain and not for not making a pass once because of how the rider in front behaves.
Cheers! A few points here; - Firstly, it is still the referee's discretion 100% who gets a penalty. - There will be 'non-police' zones of the course, pre-defined where a rational referee would not normally give a penalty for drafting in that area, such as the situations you describe. The system will not report to the referees from these areas so they won't be drawn to inadvertent drafting going on there. - The referees will not just have the perspective of what their eyes can see. They will have visibility of many more athletes around them, and then the worst handful of in the moment drafting going on around them. So if you are doing the odd piece of unintentional drafting here and there, you shouldn't show up on their 'take a closer look' list. - Lastly, those situations where you enter the zone, readjust then drop back out again, that 'illegal time' will be reported, in the same way it will be reported once you go over the allowed 25 seconds pass time. If that causes you to show up on their tablet, it's then up to the referees to decide a) yes there is intentional drafting going on, b) it's severe enough to give a penalty or not. Hope that helps! ;) Cheers! James From RaceRanger www.RaceRanger.com
What a topic which some people hold a passionate views. I have done races with 3500 people on a 40km course with single lane road. How can you not draft or should I accept the pace of the one in front of me. Most of the responsibility needs to be shouldered by the race organisers. To provide a course and limited numbers so that it is possible to comply with the drafting rules and allowing the athlete be able to race to their best. This will not work as they will not make enough money to cover the costs. So with all the BS about drafting , why not make it legal. It is only possible to maintain contact with the group if you are of a similar capability, As I have experience on my weekend rides with other groups. We draft in the swim ,we draft in the run. In the 30 years I have done triathlons and listening to all of the complaining about drafting and seeing those who a re most vocal opponents , willingly partaking of the draft when they can get away with it. It can never be stopped and fairly policed, so Just make it legal and stop crying
Totally agree. Ive done a bunch of events where there's so many people that, from a logistical point of, it becomes almost impossible to avoid the draft zone
I agree however they would make enough money, just not the sickening amount Ironman would currently make. I'm sure Active would still kick us all in the nuts either way
Like other comments, I’d be interested to see how the umpires interpret the information when cornering or going uphill; basically wherever a concertina effect is apparent. Do they overlay the course profile? During my last 70.3, I was overtaking people for most of the bike leg and to avoid any accusations of drafting I basically rode down the middle of the road. Not ideal but seemed to be the easiest option.
My biggest problem is that they expect an overtake in 20s. My rough maths says you need to do 42kmh to overtake a 40kmh bike in 20s from 12m back. This is around 30watts for me. Too many quick overtakes can be costly for me.
This is awesome. However, when I have attended as an expectator I have noticed the following: - Some folks are just blatantly cheating by TTing the whole bike segment with the last guy on the train always looking checking for refs on motor bike. These folks should be penalized. -Some other folks,mostly middle of the pack riders, are not deliberately cheating but going by the book, should get a drafting penalty as they might stay in the draft zone for too long with people ahead not dropping back when passed, some idiots riding next to each other chatting and covering half the road making it dangerous to pass, etc. For the second group, and considering 3,000 x 12 m is about 36 km of road segment. It would be required to do a single athlete TT start on the water to make it reasonable. This will also reduce drafting effect in the water but also make it easier for weaker swimmers as there is less washing machine panic. In my view, all great ideas as it will reduce the amount of ilegal riding..but now we have logistic issues, it could make for a longer day for volunteers and road permits or maybe not. It might also bunch up in the swim regardless and will have the same issues anyways. Also corners: you have 30 M or back OP age groupers coming into a corner, there would be some serious waiting times accounting for some riders just not having the skills to do a proper turn. Ok enough rambling.
What this means is that costs will go up for tri because organizers now have to put hase another piece of equipment. Let's not forget the added watts that are needed to overcome this new equipment.
The watts are equal for everyone. And the cost won’t be much pr event if this is expected to last for years. Especially for Ironman that can send this around
Best way to stop illegal drafting is to make drafting legal. All this nonsense started because it was thought to be unsafe to draft while using aerobars. And sure there's a hightenend risk when doing so but this is a competitive sport and risk is part and parcel of any competition.
This seems a good option, I thought the answer was going to be a simple light system attached to the back of a saddle which could shine a line on the floor behind to advise where the next bike should be
You've stated drafting distance is measured from "leading edge of front wheel, to leading edge of front wheel". The sensor mounted on seat post effectively shortens the distance measured by over one meter. Also, I agree w most comments addressing the impossibility of avoiding draft readings in large groups and on narrow course segments.
The distance measured is the same, still 12 meters for example. The starting point of the measurement however is 1 meter behind where it should be. So in the end the distance you are at is actually 13 meters. To correct this they could just adjust the distance measured to 11 meters. I actually don't believe the rule is leading edge of front wheel to leading edge of front wheel. This makes no sense because thats not where drafting effect starts. Normally it is rear wheel to leading edge front wheel.
A lot of "theory", but in practice, at 10m with any crosswind, it's almost impossible to find your optimal draft position. Also, the real reason why triathletes are not allowed to draft is because they are terrible bike handlers... not because it's unfair. So, maybe we could use this toy with the pro and anyone that plan to podium or qualify for something... but it's irrelevant is the average AG is following at 5 or 10m. That been said, big packs are really dangerous and organiseur should really make an effort to break them
At Ironman UK last year (2021) with a 3 loop course, long sections were literally impossible to not be in a draft zone of someone, and quite possibly someone on a different lap. Once you hit the steep hills, the drafting issue kind of goes out the window, because at such low speeds, the draft benefit is effectively 0. I did Ironman Nice this year and the first 10 miles or so were also impossible to not draft. You're leaving T1 with athletes at pretty similar levels of fitness, and the road is thin, straight and flat. There are definitely drafting gains, but too many riders to be able to avoid them. I think this is an elegant solution for pros or championship races, but probably only adds cost for the typical age grouper.
I swim horrible and bike ok. Normally overtaking around 300-400 people in an ironman. Will be very nervous how this system will judge me after all a day with different long and short overtake situations.
@@pamet1043 Dont agree. As sone as this is approved and mass produced I dont see any reason why we wont see this in ironman for age group. Dont think anyone would invent in this just for a pro sale.
Ya I think it'll be seen as an easy way to enforce the rules: it may even be more unfair since there won't be as many umpires available on the course to review the false flags given by the electronic system for the age groupers as there are for the pros!
Drafting is a huge problem on triathlons, had a few drafters behind me in 2019 and I pointed to the ref and they just passed by. It’s pretty dangerous if the one in the front has to brake hard
I think this is great and it should start with pro and AG WC competitors. If you want a slot/trophy, you must use this. Helps to educate athletes on gaps and also for marshals to accurately assign penalties. What's not to like for long distance triathlon? Only question I had was where a faster biker is continually passing others, their system would show lots of drafting but all different competitors so within 30sec passing rule etc. I presume system shows each device individually for such a situation. It's a green light for me. Would be happy to pay a minor rental fee for fairer racing at the top end. Although IM make enough dosh already as we all know...
The point of drafting in tri is reducing work on the bike to have plenty of gas in the tank for the run. In this way it diminishes the chances of strong cyclists (you guessed right, I’m a much better cyclist than runner 😂) So much drafting has been going on for years. I’ve seen numerous team members drafting over the years. It advantages strong runner/ weaker cyclist and especially on middle and long distance. I’ve sat and watched Kona slots handed out to people I witnessed working with team mates the day before. Team mates picked up penalties on purpose. Last weeks 70.3 in Les Sables d’olonne was a shambles in the pro race, obviously riding in pelotons. Either make it draft legal or referee it properly. Either way works for me but the current situation needs sorting out
I don’t get it and it seems silly to ban drafting. You can draft in the other 2 legs swimming and running so why is biking any different. I don’t see that drafting on the bike is a bike issue
@@moytheboy22 but actually draft-legal bike means that swimmers have to be good enough to make it to the lead bike pack. So it gives a lot more emphasis to swimming. Because whoever doesn't make it to the pack, will have their podium chances greatly reduced. Just look at this article from TrainingPeaks on Draft-Legal racing: "Faster Swimming There’s no doubt that you can make it as a top-level long course athlete while being an average swimmer. This is simply because the swim takes up roughly 10% of the race and making it into the lead group is less important. If you can’t swim in ITU racing, you can’t race. Does anyone remember Cam Wurf’s ITU debut? Racing draft-legal forces you to put a real emphasis on swim training. There is no other option other than to make the pack."
I recently did the Blenheim tri and with multiple laps and multiple waves joining the circuit and 100s of competitors of so many levels. The bike course was really congested, there is one hill section and it was almost a continuous line of bikes all less than 10m apart. Not sure how you could avoid entering the draft zone. Even over taking the “slow lane” you were usually in the draft zone of someone else overtaking in front of you. I’m not even that quick, so I’m sure that for the really fast riders I was part of the same problem I have just described! In this case either the organisers need to limit the number of participants in a wave, or just decide that everyone has a similar advantage and forget about it. That said I didn’t see anyone getting handed out any penalties even though the rules were 10m draft zone? I remember at signup having to specify my estimated completion time, but on the day I seemed to be in a wave with a completely random set. Maybe grouping similar athletes (as in elite, fast, medium, slow, first timers) could have limited the issue? 🤷🏻♂️
Grouping athletes would and is very difficult, because you either have to group them by their completion time or by their anticipated swim time. But for unbalanced amateurs (being sometimes very good in one or two disciplines and poor somewhere else) it destroys your good intention when organizing groups. I am, myself, a good example of the problem. If you ask me my expected completion time, I would have to answer something like "top 10%" of participants in most AG races. But if you ask me my expected swim time, I would have to answer something like "around 75%" of all participants. With cases like me, their is no chances for organizers to create an equal level group on the bike.
@@Kalenjinstf point well made. From my own perspective as a relative amateur, I still really enjoyed the Blenheim triathlon despite the congestion. If however we’d all had to carry this device and ended up with penalties, that would have put a real dampener on the event. As you note I don’t see how the organisers could have done anything different to avoid it, save have less people take part - which doesn’t feel like an option either.
Where I live there is a big triathlon each year on a Formula One racing course. That means a 4k loop. Even if it takes 3 days to cover all the distances offered, you can't avoid having races with around 1000 peoples at the same time on the cycling/race car loop. It creates big packs. You can call it pelotons. Last year, I was stuck in a bunch of around 100 riders all in the wheel of one another. Impossible not to draft, being drafted, exit the draft zone, or quit the peloton. Even the motorbike with officials was unable to make himself a way outside of the bikes pack. I know, it is ridiculous. You can see, there, 100 pounds girls pushing 100 watts riding along at 40 k/h + with big 200 lbs guys doing 300 watts. That is as much a pleasure as a frustrating race to be in. I don't see how any device could do something for such a race... but to kill the event for being obviously too far away from the official triathlon rules about drafting. That said, beside this kind of races where congestion is for drafting rules a mirror of how vain and hypocrite are those rules, I wonder how much would cost the device if all participants have to use one. Right now, I don't see it being as cheap as a timing chip. I think it would be more like an expensive radar device. I can't figure out how small to medium size events would be able to buy hundreds or thousands of 200$+ of gadgets (IM or big Challenge Family races could afford a 6 numbers bill for such a thing, but no "local" sprint or triathlon events") Why didn't GTN asked about the expected cost to implement the device ?
Still can't see how this would work with looped course and thousands of athletes, by the time the pros get to second lap they will never be out of someones draft zone who is probably a lap behind Didn't they also do some math on triathlon mockery for something like Barcelona where there is literally not enough room for all the athletes to be the required distance apart 🤔
But legally do they break the rules? As long as they continue forward motion and complete every pass within the allowed time, they are within the rules.
@@jameselvery4833 I'm just thinking with congestion it might not be possible to overtake in time, looking at Roth the other week on the 2nd loop big climb no one was the distance and I know at the lower speed there isn't really an aero advantage but if all the referees get is Athlete A spent XX time drafting then there will be a lot of people waiting in a penalty tent
@@triBenjamin @Benjamin yes its a fair concern, and something we've had in mind from early on. Busy races will still be busy. With the way the refs are only shown the worst offenders, if you are actively trying to avoid drafting, you shouldn't show up on that list. And even if you do, it's still the referees call as to who they give a penalty to. Regarding the busy areas, there will be pre-mapped areas of the course that are designated non-police zones, where drafting data isn't sent to the referee app. Hope that helps 😉
#CoachesCorner As I only started last year I always got caught out on the bike as im not great on climbs. I always seem to overtake others on the downhills and maintain the gap on the flat, but they overtaken me on the hills. Worried I will be done for drafting. What should I do. Keep going flat out when I can and never mind been overtaken again on the hills and swapping positions with the same 2r3 other racers?
Think why not allow smaller gaps like 5m - yes you could draft but also far enough away at that distance that aero bars and TT bikes are safe enough . 12m is a practical impossibility for larger events
I had an Olympic tri this morning with a 3-bike-length draft zone. I'm one of those people that'll take full advantage of whatever is allowed. The rider I followed got (rightly) annoyed by me hovering behind, since 3 lengths is within earshot; I definitely got closer than 3 lengths whenever they laid off the power, but I would slow down and drop back out of the zone. It's one of those deals where I know it's unsportsmanlike but it's also legal (and I'm not gonna give up a legal advantage in a race). I/they would probably be better off with a 20m or 30m draft zone.
Here are the numbers: 0.244/207 riding solo; nd/151 at 0 meters; nd/160 at 5 meters; 0.221/177 at 10 meters; 0.227/180 at 12 meters; 0.235/192 at 15 meters; 0.240/202 at 20 meters (nd = no data)
Race organisers should have a set number of officials for X number of athletes and X number of distance of road. For Eg 1 official for every 3km of road or 100 athletes. Right now it seems one race will have more than a dozen officials out there while another will have close to none. Officials also need to actually do more than a drive by as well.
But the device does not know whether you are in the line of the preceding bike or not. Only a GPS positioning of all athletes with real time calculations can tell you if someone is getting advantage.
In the recent sub 7 attempt video, my impression is that it was only accomplished because of drafting. So, was it really a record-breaking attempt since it was more or less cheating (as far as iron distance tris at least)?
The whole point was to see how fast one person can complete an Ironman regardless of the additional aids etc. The same idea applies to Kipchoge when he went under 2 hours in the marathon attempt: it doesn’t count as an official record but it helps scientists and physiologists improve human performance. However, humans have a limit and I think we have reached it for endurance events, but technology advances which can allow athletes to get faster (athletes aren’t physically getting faster, just the technology is 😃)
The Sub 7/ Sub 8 attempt did away with a lot of rules which usually apply in Triathlon. It was more of a human speed limit test over an Iron distance triathlon than it was a world record attempt
@@jimjamthebananaman1 running drafting has way less effect than drafting in cycling ... let's get real here. you aren't gonna run 5mins faster drafting behind group in a marathon. You can certainly bike 30mins faster riding behind a pack of cyclist over 180km
#askgtn how often do you wash your cycling gloves, helmet and other odd accessories. Honestly I just don't know where to put this question lol, but I thought next to the giraffes was the right place .
This is a tool, that the organizers can impose. I don't know the prize per unit, but I doubt it is something they will give to every participant in a mass participation event. Perhaps there would be a market for bike computers with built in laser range finders. Now the idea is out there.
Was thinking the same thing about only a handful of participants getting one. Give it to the pros for sure and then somebody smarter than me can figure out who from the age-groupers gets one.
"Open category" is the obvious answer. Sailing and many shooting sports are already open (a women won the "King of 2 Miles shooting competition this year). Men's, women's, age groups... should we also have a division for people under 5'6"? I just want to know how I stack up against the field, but maybe I see it different because I have zero chance of winning in any of the current categories. 🙃
Hi There! James from RaceRanger here We had to avoid the Green + Red combination, as colour blind athletes can't tell the difference between the 2 colours. Cheers!
Your vid is obviously about race (dis)advantages, tho i wanna point out how bad the mojo is of many road racers. Whenever i see a road racer i'll give my all to try to catch them on my mountainbike. And when i do the majority of them cant stand that i will start drafting behind them. Im on a mountainbike folks, why not just acknowledge the effort ive put in to catch you and be a bit more supportive instead of being "grumpy old farts" 🙈😅
If you ask if they mind if you draft, they might be more accepting... I often have a strong urge to clear my nose when I get an uninvited drafter behind me on a training ride.
@@amaclach You sir are the definition of a road racer with bad mojo. Why on earth would you clear your nose if someone drafts behind you on a trainingride? Are you getting slower from a drafter, nope. So why make such a derogatory gesture 🤔
The problem with your giraffe method is that giraffes are not all the same height, making it difficult to accurately estimate the 20m drafting distance
I know! I mean, everybody knows zebras are better! Amateurs!
yes, but if you get too close then you will be girafting!
4 giraffes - bloody imperial system! 😜
People would rather make zoological over generalisations before embracing the metric system
I think a lot of unfair penalties will be handed out. There has to be a little more give in the rules. I've seen it so many times on hilly courses where the rider in front hits the hill and sits up, the rider behind automatically rolls closer at the start of that hill, then the rider in front stands up and puts on the power. The rider behind went into the zone but due to the rider in front can't complete the pass - penalty. Completely unintentional drafting, was not done to gain anything and in most cases did not gain anything. Drafting penalties should be given for blatant and consistent drafting for gain and not for not making a pass once because of how the rider in front behaves.
Cheers!
A few points here;
- Firstly, it is still the referee's discretion 100% who gets a penalty.
- There will be 'non-police' zones of the course, pre-defined where a rational referee would not normally give a penalty for drafting in that area, such as the situations you describe. The system will not report to the referees from these areas so they won't be drawn to inadvertent drafting going on there.
- The referees will not just have the perspective of what their eyes can see. They will have visibility of many more athletes around them, and then the worst handful of in the moment drafting going on around them. So if you are doing the odd piece of unintentional drafting here and there, you shouldn't show up on their 'take a closer look' list.
- Lastly, those situations where you enter the zone, readjust then drop back out again, that 'illegal time' will be reported, in the same way it will be reported once you go over the allowed 25 seconds pass time. If that causes you to show up on their tablet, it's then up to the referees to decide a) yes there is intentional drafting going on, b) it's severe enough to give a penalty or not.
Hope that helps! ;)
Cheers!
James From RaceRanger
www.RaceRanger.com
What a topic which some people hold a passionate views. I have done races with 3500 people on a 40km course with single lane road. How can you not draft or should I accept the pace of the one in front of me. Most of the responsibility needs to be shouldered by the race organisers. To provide a course and limited numbers so that it is possible to comply with the drafting rules and allowing the athlete be able to race to their best. This will not work as they will not make enough money to cover the costs.
So with all the BS about drafting , why not make it legal. It is only possible to maintain contact with the group if you are of a similar capability, As I have experience on my weekend rides with other groups.
We draft in the swim ,we draft in the run.
In the 30 years I have done triathlons and listening to all of the complaining about drafting and seeing those who a re most vocal opponents , willingly partaking of the draft when they can get away with it.
It can never be stopped and fairly policed,
so
Just make it legal and stop crying
Totally agree. Ive done a bunch of events where there's so many people that, from a logistical point of, it becomes almost impossible to avoid the draft zone
With 3500 at 12m gaps you’d need 42km anyway! Ha
I agree however they would make enough money, just not the sickening amount Ironman would currently make. I'm sure Active would still kick us all in the nuts either way
I'm personally fine with draft legal racing, but not if people are on tt/TRI bikes
@@livinginsyn4814 That's what I also wanted to say. It might be too dangerous.
Like other comments, I’d be interested to see how the umpires interpret the information when cornering or going uphill; basically wherever a concertina effect is apparent. Do they overlay the course profile?
During my last 70.3, I was overtaking people for most of the bike leg and to avoid any accusations of drafting I basically rode down the middle of the road. Not ideal but seemed to be the easiest option.
This is great - it's frustrating having someone drafting, but for the pros, the motorbike effect for the front group is probably worth fixing first.
Right?
It's on the roadmap ;)
My biggest problem is that they expect an overtake in 20s. My rough maths says you need to do 42kmh to overtake a 40kmh bike in 20s from 12m back. This is around 30watts for me. Too many quick overtakes can be costly for me.
If you are in their draft though you can keep doing your same power and use their draft to catch and overtake
This is awesome. However, when I have attended as an expectator I have noticed the following:
- Some folks are just blatantly cheating by TTing the whole bike segment with the last guy on the train always looking checking for refs on motor bike. These folks should be penalized.
-Some other folks,mostly middle of the pack riders, are not deliberately cheating but going by the book, should get a drafting penalty as they might stay in the draft zone for too long with people ahead not dropping back when passed, some idiots riding next to each other chatting and covering half the road making it dangerous to pass, etc.
For the second group, and considering 3,000 x 12 m is about 36 km of road segment. It would be required to do a single athlete TT start on the water to make it reasonable. This will also reduce drafting effect in the water but also make it easier for weaker swimmers as there is less washing machine panic. In my view, all great ideas as it will reduce the amount of ilegal riding..but now we have logistic issues, it could make for a longer day for volunteers and road permits or maybe not. It might also bunch up in the swim regardless and will have the same issues anyways.
Also corners: you have 30 M or back OP age groupers coming into a corner, there would be some serious waiting times accounting for some riders just not having the skills to do a proper turn.
Ok enough rambling.
What this means is that costs will go up for tri because organizers now have to put hase another piece of equipment. Let's not forget the added watts that are needed to overcome this new equipment.
The watts are equal for everyone. And the cost won’t be much pr event if this is expected to last for years. Especially for Ironman that can send this around
Even the community events could rent the system for a race: I doubt the cost will increase significantly (above the already ridiculous costs).
Best way to stop illegal drafting is to make drafting legal. All this nonsense started because it was thought to be unsafe to draft while using aerobars. And sure there's a hightenend risk when doing so but this is a competitive sport and risk is part and parcel of any competition.
This seems a good option, I thought the answer was going to be a simple light system attached to the back of a saddle which could shine a line on the floor behind to advise where the next bike should be
You've stated drafting distance is measured from "leading edge of front wheel, to leading edge of front wheel". The sensor mounted on seat post effectively shortens the distance measured by over one meter.
Also, I agree w most comments addressing the impossibility of avoiding draft readings in large groups and on narrow course segments.
The distance measured is the same, still 12 meters for example. The starting point of the measurement however is 1 meter behind where it should be. So in the end the distance you are at is actually 13 meters. To correct this they could just adjust the distance measured to 11 meters.
I actually don't believe the rule is leading edge of front wheel to leading edge of front wheel. This makes no sense because thats not where drafting effect starts. Normally it is rear wheel to leading edge front wheel.
Now add ANT+ protocol plus widgets for bike computers. That would be great!
A lot of "theory", but in practice, at 10m with any crosswind, it's almost impossible to find your optimal draft position. Also, the real reason why triathletes are not allowed to draft is because they are terrible bike handlers... not because it's unfair. So, maybe we could use this toy with the pro and anyone that plan to podium or qualify for something... but it's irrelevant is the average AG is following at 5 or 10m. That been said, big packs are really dangerous and organiseur should really make an effort to break them
Would red be “naughty” vice blue? I think a simple green for good, blinking red for warming, solid red for naughty would be easier 🤷♂️
Hi There!
We had to avoid the combination of green + red, as colour blind athletes cant see the difference between the two colours,
Cheers!
@@jameselvery4833 fair point. I was thinking of traffic light
At Ironman UK last year (2021) with a 3 loop course, long sections were literally impossible to not be in a draft zone of someone, and quite possibly someone on a different lap. Once you hit the steep hills, the drafting issue kind of goes out the window, because at such low speeds, the draft benefit is effectively 0.
I did Ironman Nice this year and the first 10 miles or so were also impossible to not draft. You're leaving T1 with athletes at pretty similar levels of fitness, and the road is thin, straight and flat. There are definitely drafting gains, but too many riders to be able to avoid them.
I think this is an elegant solution for pros or championship races, but probably only adds cost for the typical age grouper.
Avoiding the draft zone can be difficult when the course is congested
1000 age group athletes, each riding >20m apart, that would require >20km of road. It doesn’t work, has never worked and never will!
I swim horrible and bike ok. Normally overtaking around 300-400 people in an ironman. Will be very nervous how this system will judge me after all a day with different long and short overtake situations.
Dont think it will get a lot of use in amateur racing. But for pros this might be quite useful
@@pamet1043 Dont agree. As sone as this is approved and mass produced I dont see any reason why we wont see this in ironman for age group. Dont think anyone would invent in this just for a pro sale.
Ya I think it'll be seen as an easy way to enforce the rules: it may even be more unfair since there won't be as many umpires available on the course to review the false flags given by the electronic system for the age groupers as there are for the pros!
So long as each time you make a pass you complete it within the allowed 25 secs, you aren't technically breaking the rules.
@@jameselvery4833 yes but the picture isn’t always that clear back in the field. People all over the place at times
Thanks for the good video. But I got annoyed from the background music (too loud).
Drafting is a huge problem on triathlons, had a few drafters behind me in 2019 and I pointed to the ref and they just passed by. It’s pretty dangerous if the one in the front has to brake hard
I think this is great and it should start with pro and AG WC competitors. If you want a slot/trophy, you must use this.
Helps to educate athletes on gaps and also for marshals to accurately assign penalties.
What's not to like for long distance triathlon?
Only question I had was where a faster biker is continually passing others, their system would show lots of drafting but all different competitors so within 30sec passing rule etc.
I presume system shows each device individually for such a situation.
It's a green light for me. Would be happy to pay a minor rental fee for fairer racing at the top end.
Although IM make enough dosh already as we all know...
The point of drafting in tri is reducing work on the bike to have plenty of gas in the tank for the run. In this way it diminishes the chances of strong cyclists (you guessed right, I’m a much better cyclist than runner 😂) So much drafting has been going on for years. I’ve seen numerous team members drafting over the years. It advantages strong runner/ weaker cyclist and especially on middle and long distance. I’ve sat and watched Kona slots handed out to people I witnessed working with team mates the day before. Team mates picked up penalties on purpose. Last weeks 70.3 in Les Sables d’olonne was a shambles in the pro race, obviously riding in pelotons. Either make it draft legal or referee it properly. Either way works for me but the current situation needs sorting out
Just got to sort media bike and leed bike from being to close as it is often first out of the water gets an easy ride behind motorbike
We'll address that and live tracking next ;)
- James from RaceRanger
Implement it. It could also be part of broadcast data
I don’t get it and it seems silly to ban drafting. You can draft in the other 2 legs swimming and running so why is biking any different. I don’t see that drafting on the bike is a bike issue
because its so much more effective. you aren't gaining 30% savings drafting on a run
Triathlon needs to normalize draft legal races.
Then it’s almost reduced to swim run
Yeah specially for age groupers the team work makes a lot of difference
@@tengamangapiu lots of fun pulling the runners for 180 km so they can bury you
@@tengamangapiu it’s just part of the sport. The whole “tribike” and “no drafting” culture it’s a setback to the sport IMO.
@@moytheboy22 but actually draft-legal bike means that swimmers have to be good enough to make it to the lead bike pack. So it gives a lot more emphasis to swimming. Because whoever doesn't make it to the pack, will have their podium chances greatly reduced.
Just look at this article from TrainingPeaks on Draft-Legal racing:
"Faster Swimming
There’s no doubt that you can make it as a top-level long course athlete while being an average swimmer. This is simply because the swim takes up roughly 10% of the race and making it into the lead group is less important. If you can’t swim in ITU racing, you can’t race. Does anyone remember Cam Wurf’s ITU debut? Racing draft-legal forces you to put a real emphasis on swim training. There is no other option other than to make the pack."
I recently did the Blenheim tri and with multiple laps and multiple waves joining the circuit and 100s of competitors of so many levels. The bike course was really congested, there is one hill section and it was almost a continuous line of bikes all less than 10m apart. Not sure how you could avoid entering the draft zone. Even over taking the “slow lane” you were usually in the draft zone of someone else overtaking in front of you. I’m not even that quick, so I’m sure that for the really fast riders I was part of the same problem I have just described! In this case either the organisers need to limit the number of participants in a wave, or just decide that everyone has a similar advantage and forget about it. That said I didn’t see anyone getting handed out any penalties even though the rules were 10m draft zone? I remember at signup having to specify my estimated completion time, but on the day I seemed to be in a wave with a completely random set. Maybe grouping similar athletes (as in elite, fast, medium, slow, first timers) could have limited the issue? 🤷🏻♂️
Grouping athletes would and is very difficult, because you either have to group them by their completion time or by their anticipated swim time. But for unbalanced amateurs (being sometimes very good in one or two disciplines and poor somewhere else) it destroys your good intention when organizing groups. I am, myself, a good example of the problem. If you ask me my expected completion time, I would have to answer something like "top 10%" of participants in most AG races. But if you ask me my expected swim time, I would have to answer something like "around 75%" of all participants. With cases like me, their is no chances for organizers to create an equal level group on the bike.
@@Kalenjinstf point well made. From my own perspective as a relative amateur, I still really enjoyed the Blenheim triathlon despite the congestion. If however we’d all had to carry this device and ended up with penalties, that would have put a real dampener on the event. As you note I don’t see how the organisers could have done anything different to avoid it, save have less people take part - which doesn’t feel like an option either.
Where I live there is a big triathlon each year on a Formula One racing course. That means a 4k loop. Even if it takes 3 days to cover all the distances offered, you can't avoid having races with around 1000 peoples at the same time on the cycling/race car loop. It creates big packs. You can call it pelotons. Last year, I was stuck in a bunch of around 100 riders all in the wheel of one another. Impossible not to draft, being drafted, exit the draft zone, or quit the peloton. Even the motorbike with officials was unable to make himself a way outside of the bikes pack. I know, it is ridiculous. You can see, there, 100 pounds girls pushing 100 watts riding along at 40 k/h + with big 200 lbs guys doing 300 watts. That is as much a pleasure as a frustrating race to be in. I don't see how any device could do something for such a race... but to kill the event for being obviously too far away from the official triathlon rules about drafting. That said, beside this kind of races where congestion is for drafting rules a mirror of how vain and hypocrite are those rules, I wonder how much would cost the device if all participants have to use one. Right now, I don't see it being as cheap as a timing chip. I think it would be more like an expensive radar device. I can't figure out how small to medium size events would be able to buy hundreds or thousands of 200$+ of gadgets (IM or big Challenge Family races could afford a 6 numbers bill for such a thing, but no "local" sprint or triathlon events") Why didn't GTN asked about the expected cost to implement the device ?
Still can't see how this would work with looped course and thousands of athletes, by the time the pros get to second lap they will never be out of someones draft zone who is probably a lap behind
Didn't they also do some math on triathlon mockery for something like Barcelona where there is literally not enough room for all the athletes to be the required distance apart 🤔
But legally do they break the rules? As long as they continue forward motion and complete every pass within the allowed time, they are within the rules.
@@jameselvery4833 I'm just thinking with congestion it might not be possible to overtake in time, looking at Roth the other week on the 2nd loop big climb no one was the distance and I know at the lower speed there isn't really an aero advantage but if all the referees get is Athlete A spent XX time drafting then there will be a lot of people waiting in a penalty tent
@@triBenjamin @Benjamin yes its a fair concern, and something we've had in mind from early on.
Busy races will still be busy. With the way the refs are only shown the worst offenders, if you are actively trying to avoid drafting, you shouldn't show up on that list. And even if you do, it's still the referees call as to who they give a penalty to.
Regarding the busy areas, there will be pre-mapped areas of the course that are designated non-police zones, where drafting data isn't sent to the referee app.
Hope that helps 😉
#CoachesCorner
As I only started last year I always got caught out on the bike as im not great on climbs. I always seem to overtake others on the downhills and maintain the gap on the flat, but they overtaken me on the hills.
Worried I will be done for drafting. What should I do. Keep going flat out when I can and never mind been overtaken again on the hills and swapping positions with the same 2r3 other racers?
I'm descent on the downhills too! 🤣😂🤣😂
Where can I buy that bike wall mount?
AliExpress
Think why not allow smaller gaps like 5m - yes you could draft but also far enough away at that distance that aero bars and TT bikes are safe enough . 12m is a practical impossibility for larger events
I had an Olympic tri this morning with a 3-bike-length draft zone. I'm one of those people that'll take full advantage of whatever is allowed. The rider I followed got (rightly) annoyed by me hovering behind, since 3 lengths is within earshot; I definitely got closer than 3 lengths whenever they laid off the power, but I would slow down and drop back out of the zone. It's one of those deals where I know it's unsportsmanlike but it's also legal (and I'm not gonna give up a legal advantage in a race). I/they would probably be better off with a 20m or 30m draft zone.
That’s four standard giraffes? 🤘🙄🤷♂️🧐🤔
Yes, four average giraffes. Some giraffes may be shorter or taller
Anything to reduce drafting is good, it's becoming a big problem, with some pre planned drafting going on in longer some races.
When you rattled off all those stats, why wouldn't you also print that on the screen to read?
Here are the numbers: 0.244/207 riding solo; nd/151 at 0 meters; nd/160 at 5 meters; 0.221/177 at 10 meters; 0.227/180 at 12 meters; 0.235/192 at 15 meters; 0.240/202 at 20 meters (nd = no data)
Challenge Salou wins my vote for worst drafting. The officials were actually accompanying the peleton! Spanish, of course
How would it work if the rider behind was colour blind or just couldn’t see the different colours in front on the device 🤷🏻♂️
Race organisers should have a set number of officials for X number of athletes and X number of distance of road. For Eg 1 official for every 3km of road or 100 athletes. Right now it seems one race will have more than a dozen officials out there while another will have close to none. Officials also need to actually do more than a drive by as well.
I predict total chaos when you use this system in a competition with a few thousand participants. It becomes a graveyard.
10 metres = 1 second at 36kph - could be easier to judge on the course than giraffes and bike-lengths
But the device does not know whether you are in the line of the preceding bike or not. Only a GPS positioning of all athletes with real time calculations can tell you if someone is getting advantage.
In the recent sub 7 attempt video, my impression is that it was only accomplished because of drafting. So, was it really a record-breaking attempt since it was more or less cheating (as far as iron distance tris at least)?
The whole point was to see how fast one person can complete an Ironman regardless of the additional aids etc. The same idea applies to Kipchoge when he went under 2 hours in the marathon attempt: it doesn’t count as an official record but it helps scientists and physiologists improve human performance. However, humans have a limit and I think we have reached it for endurance events, but technology advances which can allow athletes to get faster (athletes aren’t physically getting faster, just the technology is 😃)
The Sub 7/ Sub 8 attempt did away with a lot of rules which usually apply in Triathlon. It was more of a human speed limit test over an Iron distance triathlon than it was a world record attempt
@@jimjamthebananaman1 running drafting has way less effect than drafting in cycling ... let's get real here.
you aren't gonna run 5mins faster drafting behind group in a marathon.
You can certainly bike 30mins faster riding behind a pack of cyclist over 180km
#askgtn how often do you wash your cycling gloves, helmet and other odd accessories. Honestly I just don't know where to put this question lol, but I thought next to the giraffes was the right place .
This is a tool, that the organizers can impose. I don't know the prize per unit, but I doubt it is something they will give to every participant in a mass participation event.
Perhaps there would be a market for bike computers with built in laser range finders.
Now the idea is out there.
Was thinking the same thing about only a handful of participants getting one. Give it to the pros for sure and then somebody smarter than me can figure out who from the age-groupers gets one.
Sad day.
Just fart when they’re constantly drafting you. JK
Snot rockets are good too.
Lower that hub volume. Just kidding 😍
He's threatening to make it even louder next time
GTN aren't you going to cover the BIG news from British Triathlon re trans athletes? I think it's great news.
"Open category" is the obvious answer. Sailing and many shooting sports are already open (a women won the "King of 2 Miles shooting competition this year). Men's, women's, age groups... should we also have a division for people under 5'6"? I just want to know how I stack up against the field, but maybe I see it different because I have zero chance of winning in any of the current categories. 🙃
Why not green is good red is bad? Everyone who’s entered a triathlon knows that scheme.
Hi There!
James from RaceRanger here
We had to avoid the Green + Red combination, as colour blind athletes can't tell the difference between the 2 colours.
Cheers!
@@jameselvery4833 ahh that makes sense. Good thinking.
Your vid is obviously about race (dis)advantages, tho i wanna point out how bad the mojo is of many road racers. Whenever i see a road racer i'll give my all to try to catch them on my mountainbike. And when i do the majority of them cant stand that i will start drafting behind them. Im on a mountainbike folks, why not just acknowledge the effort ive put in to catch you and be a bit more supportive instead of being "grumpy old farts" 🙈😅
If you ask if they mind if you draft, they might be more accepting... I often have a strong urge to clear my nose when I get an uninvited drafter behind me on a training ride.
@@amaclach You sir are the definition of a road racer with bad mojo. Why on earth would you clear your nose if someone drafts behind you on a trainingride? Are you getting slower from a drafter, nope. So why make such a derogatory gesture 🤔
@@amaclach I’ve done that too.
And keep wondering why people dislike road racers 😅