*You will need to re-align your knives if you need to shim your outfeed table.* See setting jointer knives here: www.garagewoodworks.com/video.php?video=10
Have to say brother, I watched your video, went in the garage, built the jig, and set up my jointer. Wow!! It worked perfect. The jointer's never worked so good. Thank You
Well, after 4 hours on a Sunday morning I'm pleased to say my jointer infeed/ outfeed tables are perfectly parallel. This method is far superior to the previously applied straight edge and feeler gauge technique. It's faster, easier to get an accurate reading, and less fiddly! I used 1/2/3 machine blocks to support a Veritas Aluminum ( 50" or there abouts ) straight edge with an dial indicator attached. Thanks for the ideas!
I just received a new Jet 8" HH jointer. I liked your idea but was somewhat skeptical. So I built one similar to yours. I used 3/4" plywood (8 plies) for the beam having the plywood plies aligned up/down, thinking this would make a reasonably solid beam. It takes quite a lot of end weight to support that long reach. I could not get the same readings twice for any particular spot (of the 4) and of the readings that I got .085 was the greatest. I suspect the weight was *bending* the table slightly as it was moved further / closer to the cutter head position and/or to the front/back of the table. I went to the straight edge method and discovered that the tables were pretty close to bang-on. To test my table *bending* theory, I put the beam/dial indicator near the end of a table and then leaned on the end of the table a bit. Wow, the dial indicator jumped a good bit. Methinks I'll stick with the straight edge method -- but I liked your creativity.
I know this was 5 years ago - but I found it very fascinating and useful! When talking about three points make up a plane - would you think that 3 feet on your stand would be a better "complement" to your methods of measurement? (of course that is to accommodate any irregularities of flatness in the infeed table - and if you have that, well, no adjustment in the world would fix it (shy of first flattening the infeed table!!)
Like this! I have made your jointer jigs. I also did buy a dial indicator when on sale at Grizzly. Planning on using my jointer and surface planer soon. As I did with the jig I'll be checking this video. Oh yeah I like that you didn't just say "Co-planer," and go on. LOL! Thanks for posting your solution.
I last checked the plane of my outfeed when I installed an indexing pin for the cutter head a few years ago. The beds were spot on which is kind of amazing because of how old it is. I really like this idea, much easier than feeler gauges. Thanks for idea Brian!
This is tomorrow's project. I've been having all sorts of problems with my jointer, and have been unable to diagnose it. This might be just what the doctor ordered. Thanks for posting this.
I followed your instructions and built an alignment tool. It helped me figure out where my low spot was and adjust things MUCH faster than my previous "tinker and test" method. But I found a new problem: you can have both tables be coplanar, and both be slanted downhill to the left. 😀 Now I need to figure out how to deal with that problem. 😂
Awesome information and jig, I definitely need to make this to check my jointer. What a fantastic way to check and adjust the jointer your teaching is perfect thank you for the information.
Great video and practical application of geometry. I see you've commented numerous times that a straight edge w/ feeler gauge is less accurate and why would you bother with it, etc. Because there has been so much interest in that topic (and a ton of folks doing it), might be instructive for your followers to post a follow-on video where you demonstrate with a straight edge what kind of accuracy it comes up with, as compared to the 3-points-in-space technique (I'm trying to come up with a cool name... the Triple Lindy... the Three Hour Saver...). Believe folks would learn a lot and some might enjoy that "ding" in their head when the a-ha moment hits. Anyway great video, many thanks.
I think I would trust a machined straight edge rule before wood, just looked like the board moved as you were ripping, great vid and I'm not being critical, I'm about to bring a delta 6" back to life, watched several vids and learned something from all, thanks
Great idea! I would offer one thing to consider. The underlying assumption of using the long arm with the dial indicator is that the infield table is absolutely flat. If there is any bow or deviation in the infield table being used to support the beam (and I’m talking thousandths of an inch) then that will magnify the movement of the dial indicator at the far end. That would throw off your readings. You say that you don’t have a straight edge; you may want to invest in one and verify that your infield table is indeed machined flat. There are some good ones out there that aren’t that expensive. Thanks! Hope this helps!
Any bow in the infeed would be indicated by a up and down dial indicator reading (non-linear) as you traverse the table. Using a straight edge and feeler guages to verify this method would be similar to using a tape measure to verify the accuracy of a digital caliper. You only need to confirm flat once - which can be done with this method. Periodically checking for parallel should be done with regular maintenance - a quick and painless process using this method.
Make a shorter setup and check the table against itself as you move across it. Or temporarily move the dial closer to the stand on the same rig if you can attach it half way.
Could you use 3 feet and 1 rare earth magnet on your extended arm base plate? Thanks for taking the time to post. Planning on watching some of your other videos After the jointer is done.
OK I have a Grizzly G0453ZW with Parallelogram Beds. Meaning it is easier to align because of eccentric bushings rather than ways. All that said my in to out feed tables were not parallel pretty much like Garage works was. I had not seen this video yet and did have a dial indicator for checking parallel to the cutter head. I did use the straight edge method and used the dial indicator mounted on the fence moving the outside of the out feed table up until the the straight edge was pretty flat across both tables. Then I had to readjust the out feed to the height of the cutter head as that changed a lot, Now all boards are square and the glue face is very flat on my boards. I like what he did and will ck it now that I know how.
Another question - and I see your jig would be VERY helpful in this measurement as well - a measurement at different depths of cut... We ASSUME the infeed table moves exactly in a way to keep the infeed in that same co-planer manner as the first measurement... but as a machinist, I realize repeatability and consistency is key. Thoughts?
Keep in mind that the two tables are only coplanar when the depth of cut is zero. All other depths of cut other than zero are no longer coplanar - they are maintained parallel. It was an assumption that I made as well. I never explored changing the depth of cut and it’s impact on maintaining parallel.
finally some science to adjust a tool. i cant stand people and their " straight edges " nice job. straight edge will get you close but im not looking for close im looking for perfect. thanks
But don’t you ideally need to have the measuring device you made at the very back of the infeed table and the tip of the dial indicator at the very edge on the mark you made on the outfeed table? To get the full sweep of the plane?
i missed the reason for the 4 small legs glued to the wooden block. wouldn't the flat block slide on the infeed table just as well.? i like your idea and a nice explanation too, gonna try this very soon thanks.
Nice jig, I'll have to get a dial indicator. It will come in handy for a bunch of stuff, as you say. What model jointer is that? I have a model 54 and it looks very similar but I have a handwheel where you seem to have a more of a knob.
Great idea and video. I am close to completing a complete rebuild of a Rockwell/Delta longbed 8 inch jointer. I have swapped out cutter head with a Byrd Shelix head and I am now beginning to get things aligned. I am assuming that the outfeed table sits at the same height as the highest cutter on the Byrd head, is this correct? Is the process first to set the infee/outfeed tables to be co-planer, then align cutter head to this? Thanks in advance
First get the outfeed/infeed parallel with the long axis of the cutterhead. Then confirm that the infeed/outfeed tables are parallel to each other. Set the outfeed table to be flush with the cutterhead cutters at top-dead-center. Coplanar with regard to jointer tables is a misnomer. A jointer with coplanar tables will not function as a jointer - think parallel.
6:30 were you able to figure out why the indicator moved 0.003" within the last inch? Also, don't you need to first make sure the in-feed table is parallel to the cutter head? Watching a Grizzly factory setup video their instruction is to shim the cutter head parallel to the in-feed table then adjust outfeed to in-feed table. Your indicator/math method has to be much more accurate any straight edge feeler gauge method.
Are you saying that the far end of that long lever arm remains at the same height when perched on those wooden feet only 3 inches apart? That seems to introduce quite a bit of error. What am I missing?
I ran out to Harbor Freight and bought a dial indicator (what), came home and built the jig (what), 15 dollars later (what) realized I don't have a jointer.
Great video. I just bought a dial indicator to align my jointer knives dead on. Now I'll build your jig to check the tables. But here's my question. Now that both tables are aligned, do you also leave the in feed table alone? If so, what is the recommended depth of cut?
If you need to shim your jointer, only shim the outfeed table. After shimming the outfeed table you don't want to adjust it anymore. Only make adjustments to the infeed table.
I understand that. What I'm wondering is can the in feed table go out of plane by adjusting the depth of cut? If so I wold think that it would be wise to get the depth of cut you want and make sure the two tables are still totally parallel. Therefore I would want to leave the in feed side alone as well and what is the ideal depth of cut, 1/16th?
+sandmandave2008 The infeed table shouldn't go out when adjusting the depth of cut. I don't know if there is an ideal depth of cut. I increase my depth when boards are really out of flat and decrease when they're not. If it does go out of plane when adjusting then I'd do what you suggested by setting it at a non aggressive depth. A 1/16" should be good.
@@sandmandave2008 If your infeed table goes out of plane as you change cut height, you have a problem you cannot fix with adjustments. It is a flaw in the engineering of the machine. Should not be a problem if your system uses ways. I had a small, cheap jointer whose infeed pivoted on four parallel swing arms as you changed cut height. One or more pivot points was machined "off" so the arms were not really parallel. I set it to be on plane with my outfeed at 1/32" cut. If you moved it up or down it went off plane.
Not sure if a straight edge is needed as primary tool If one uses a dial gauge even without the jig you built. Theory: If the tables are flat, then can’t one use a dial indicator to match two corner measurements of the infeed table (at the corners closest to the blade) with the two closest corners of the outfeed table? If these four points are adjusted to be the same, shouldn’t the endpoints of each table have the same dial gauge reading -+ .002” if each table is flat with little runout relative to the 4 points of measure of the two feed tables identified above? I tested this out last night on a jointer given to me (I pretty much took it apart) and checked with a straight edge and the results were consistent with my theory. Or maybe I got lucky?
Brian, is this harder to do with a parallelogram jointer? Now we have 4 areas which can be adjusted rather just two areas (shimming on each side of the dovetail way). Also, I have a Grizzly 858 parallelogram jointer and have trouble keeping the tables adjusted. Have you ever had this problem or know what I could do fix it or at least figure out why it is moving? Thanks.
Way easier adjusting parallelogram jointers. I have a hammer a3-31, and I’d much rather turn a few nuts that mess with shims. As far as keeping adjustment- I prefer not to mess with the jointer depth much, if at all. Keep it shallow and multiple passes. Moving things around always has the potential for shifting something.
It seems like this will indeed make the parallel, but not necessarily coplanar. Imagine that both planes are tilted at and extreme 4 degrees but perfectly parallel with each other. Both of the tests you performed would show 0, right? But they would be nowhere near coplanar. \ and \ are parallel but not coplanar.
The only time the tables of a jointer are coplanar (in the same plane) is when the cutter depth of the infeed table is set to zero. If your infeed and outfeed tables are parallel with each other, and the infeed table is set to a greater than zero cutting depth, then they WILL be coplanar at a cutting depth of zero. If both tables are 4 degrees tilted but are parallel you will still have a perfectly functional jointer (as long as the tables were tilted about the axis of the cutterhead) that will also have coplanar tables at a cutting depth of zero; the only difference will be that the tables will be not parallel to the floor the jointer is resting on and will be tilted by 4 degrees. I think it's possible that part of your confusion is coming from the term "coplanar". Coplanar only means that two planes would occupy the same plane in space. Parallel jointer tables can cut wood whereas coplanar jointer tables will not. Please let me know if this is still not clear.
Agree.... I need to ponder more and perhaps have more coffee. :) It isn't setting well with me. :) It seems like the goal is to have them coplanar while flush with the cutters (0 cutting depth).
Agree. All that is being aligned here are the ends of the tables. You did a great job and it is a novel idea for solving a vexing problem, and I agree that three points of reference make parallel surfaces, but that is by measuring from one stationary point. Your jig is moving as you measure. Also, that .003 difference early in the video should be made zero because that affects every measurement thereafter. I tried different methods to align my jointer tables also, but the best method seems to be a straight edge. You don't need to spend $100 to buy a straight edge. I use an extruded aluminum (window) mullion from Lowe's +-.0005 accuracy. If you could back up your method with a straight edge measurement after you were done, I would be impressed and concede that your method works. Dude! Take a breath before you pass out. lol
That's a slick trick there buddy! But my question is this. How do you have a granite surface plate (a precise tool that costs $100s) but you dont have a precise straight edge ($25 on Amazon)
@@GarageWoodworks I'm not saying I'd use the straight edge, but I would definitely own one. They really come in handy for other purposes. Ad $45 for a vood surface plate is SUPER cheap, where did you get it?
What makes you think I don’t own one? I own a long straight edge but I’d never use it for alignment. It’s not accurate enough and it’s a much slower process. See Woodcraft or Amazon for the plate.
THANK YOU, THAT'S THE BEST DAMNED EXPLAINATION I'VE SEEN ON THIS SITE. IT GOT ME THINKING AND I'M GONNA BUILD ONE USING RARE EARTH MAGNETS OR TWO DIAL INDICATOR BASES ON A BASE MADE OF SQUARE EXTRUDED ALUMINUM TUBING WITH AN ADJUSTABLE ARM SLIDING IN THE MAGNETIC BASE. SLIDING WILL ALLOW USEAGE ON DIFFERENT LENGTH JOINTERS AND BE ABLE TO USE ON THE KNIVES AS WELL. THANKS AGAIN, I'M HEADING FOR THE BRIDGEPORT.
It is amazing all the things we assume and should never have... I am guilty as charged! The factory knows how to build them not necessarily dial them in.
This trick would only works if the infeed and out feed tables are flat and free of any twists. Otherwise it wouldn't work. Unfortunately the fastest way to check for flatness or twist is still with a straight edge
No. You are incorrect. This method would still detect non-flat tables as the indicator needle would rise then fall for non-flat. This method can also detect a twist: a twist could be confirmed by following the method in my video and use two paths down the length of the table - one away from the fence and one near the fence; both paths would not have the same readings on the dial indicator if the table is twisted. The straight edge method would also have to be done twice to detect twist. The ONLY way my method does not work is if both the infeed and outfeed tables have identical (and symetrical) twists/deformations which would be so statistically improbable that it could be stated as impossible.
I don't know about this. There is room for significant error, including flex over the length of the arm and compression of the wood feet and base. It might be useful to double check this method with a straight edge or, better yet, two 12" drafting triangles met over the cutterhead. I hope it's confirmed.
What error? There is no flex. If there was flex I’d see it in the needle as noise. This method is repeatable. Double check with a straight edge? This method is accurate to the +|- 0.001”. That’s like confirming a caliper measurement with a tape measure.
Very clever - and apparently the technique works! Thanks (p.s. none of my business but you might consider some cardio - you seemed badly out of breath and you're younger than me by a fair bit!)
The term you are looking for is coplainer. Technically parallelism is only 2d. While in geometric dimensioning and toleranceing practice coplainer is not used to define two planes being, well coplainer, in math that is the term you are looking for
+attainableapex Incorreect. The tables are ONLY coplanar when they are in the same plane. Because a jointer does not function when the tables are in the same plane AND because the alignment occurs when out of the same plane, it is more correct to say "parallel". Think of bicycle tires when riding straight; the tires in this case are coplanar. Jointer tables, when cutting, are always non-coplanar; they are however parallel.
Parallelism is not limited to 2D in mathematics. Here's a 3-minute refresher on parallel objects (plane and line, two planes, two lines). Here we're concerned with two parallel planes, which when perfectly aligned end-to-end (zero cutter height) they become coplanar and thus useless as a jointer. www.brightstorm.com/math/geometry/geometry-building-blocks/parallel-planes-and-lines/
*You will need to re-align your knives if you need to shim your outfeed table.* See setting jointer knives here: www.garagewoodworks.com/video.php?video=10
Have to say brother, I watched your video, went in the garage, built the jig, and set up my jointer. Wow!! It worked perfect. The jointer's never worked so good. Thank You
Great video. This will make plane alignment precision and yet easy to do! Thank you.
Thanks for the great shortcut! One suggestion, use 3 pads on the end opposite the indicator instead of the 4. Not necessary to level then
What he said.👍
Nice short video. Pure business, no small talk that is waste of time.
Struggling with my new China aluminum deck jointer. Your great idea will help. Thank You.
I like your method of checking the planer In feed to out feed setting. This is better than the straight edge method.
Well, after 4 hours on a Sunday morning I'm pleased to say my jointer infeed/ outfeed tables are perfectly parallel. This method is far superior to the previously applied straight edge and feeler gauge technique. It's faster, easier to get an accurate reading, and less fiddly! I used 1/2/3 machine blocks to support a Veritas Aluminum ( 50" or there abouts ) straight edge with an dial indicator attached. Thanks for the ideas!
I just received a new Jet 8" HH jointer. I liked your idea but was somewhat skeptical. So I built one similar to yours. I used 3/4" plywood (8 plies) for the beam having the plywood plies aligned up/down, thinking this would make a reasonably solid beam. It takes quite a lot of end weight to support that long reach.
I could not get the same readings twice for any particular spot (of the 4) and of the readings that I got .085 was the greatest. I suspect the weight was *bending* the table slightly as it was moved further / closer to the cutter head position and/or to the front/back of the table. I went to the straight edge method and discovered that the tables were pretty close to bang-on.
To test my table *bending* theory, I put the beam/dial indicator near the end of a table and then leaned on the end of the table a bit. Wow, the dial indicator jumped a good bit. Methinks I'll stick with the straight edge method -- but I liked your creativity.
I know this was 5 years ago - but I found it very fascinating and useful! When talking about three points make up a plane - would you think that 3 feet on your stand would be a better "complement" to your methods of measurement? (of course that is to accommodate any irregularities of flatness in the infeed table - and if you have that, well, no adjustment in the world would fix it (shy of first flattening the infeed table!!)
Like this! I have made your jointer jigs. I also did buy a dial indicator when on sale at Grizzly. Planning on using my jointer and surface planer soon. As I did with the jig I'll be checking this video. Oh yeah I like that you didn't just say "Co-planer," and go on. LOL! Thanks for posting your solution.
And he never said coplanar either!
I last checked the plane of my outfeed when I installed an indexing pin for the cutter head a few years ago. The beds were spot on which is kind of amazing because of how old it is. I really like this idea, much easier than feeler gauges. Thanks for idea Brian!
This is tomorrow's project. I've been having all sorts of problems with my jointer, and have been unable to diagnose it. This might be just what the doctor ordered. Thanks for posting this.
+ponkkaa No sweat. Please let me know how you make out.
I followed your instructions and built an alignment tool. It helped me figure out where my low spot was and adjust things MUCH faster than my previous "tinker and test" method. But I found a new problem: you can have both tables be coplanar, and both be slanted downhill to the left. 😀
Now I need to figure out how to deal with that problem. 😂
Zero a digital angle finder on the cutter-head and check that on the tables in the same orientation, adjust to zero :)
Actually it dosn't matter, they can be slanted left or right as long as they are slanted the same.
Doing a jointer Restoration on a very old jointer, I'm definitely going to use this idea. Thx!
Awesome! I hope this helps.
thank you so much, very useful...very easy...loved the geometry refresh!
Fantastic solution and tip. Thanks! (No, not rushed. Just great!)
Great idea. I just went out to the shop and did this. I was only about 4 thou off. I'm happy with that. Thanks for your instructions.
Nice!
Awesome information and jig, I definitely need to make this to check my jointer. What a fantastic way to check and adjust the jointer your teaching is perfect thank you for the information.
This is great! Thanks for the idea.
Too many planes and not enough hot stewardesses :D
That's really a neat way to check that, a great trick to keep in mind - thanks!
Ha! I couldn't agree more! :) Thanks John
Great video and practical application of geometry. I see you've commented numerous times that a straight edge w/ feeler gauge is less accurate and why would you bother with it, etc. Because there has been so much interest in that topic (and a ton of folks doing it), might be instructive for your followers to post a follow-on video where you demonstrate with a straight edge what kind of accuracy it comes up with, as compared to the 3-points-in-space technique (I'm trying to come up with a cool name... the Triple Lindy... the Three Hour Saver...). Believe folks would learn a lot and some might enjoy that "ding" in their head when the a-ha moment hits. Anyway great video, many thanks.
Great explanation of the process and the reason why it works.
THAT INFORMATION IS GOLD.
Wow thank you very much I’ve been looking for a straight edge I can’t afford good job
I think I would trust a machined straight edge rule before wood, just looked like the board moved as you were ripping, great vid and I'm not being critical, I'm about to bring a delta 6" back to life, watched several vids and learned something from all, thanks
Think about it logically though. All you need to be correct is point A (the base) and point B (the indicator). The bar in between can be any shape.
Those yellow push pads are the bomb.
Good information and a great poster on the wall
Great idea! I would offer one thing to consider. The underlying assumption of using the long arm with the dial indicator is that the infield table is absolutely flat. If there is any bow or deviation in the infield table being used to support the beam (and I’m talking thousandths of an inch) then that will magnify the movement of the dial indicator at the far end. That would throw off your readings. You say that you don’t have a straight edge; you may want to invest in one and verify that your infield table is indeed machined flat. There are some good ones out there that aren’t that expensive. Thanks! Hope this helps!
Any bow in the infeed would be indicated by a up and down dial indicator reading (non-linear) as you traverse the table. Using a straight edge and feeler guages to verify this method would be similar to using a tape measure to verify the accuracy of a digital caliper. You only need to confirm flat once - which can be done with this method. Periodically checking for parallel should be done with regular maintenance - a quick and painless process using this method.
Make a shorter setup and check the table against itself as you move across it. Or temporarily move the dial closer to the stand on the same rig if you can attach it half way.
Greatly appreciate your guidance on this. I have a jointer that needs this in a bad way... or it's hitting the skids!
Great idea. I never wanted to spend the money on a precision straight end. Thanks.
Thanks for taking the time.
I like your idea very much. I'm going to use that idea in my planer out feed.
Could you use 3 feet and 1 rare earth magnet on your extended arm base plate? Thanks for taking the time to post. Planning on watching some of your other videos After the jointer is done.
You could try. I’m not sure that it would support the weight.
GREAT VIDEO! BEAUTIFUL SOLUTION and i love your poster big bang theory! 😆
another reason to drink beer. I can tell my wife i need the cans for shims on my jointer!!
Simple way of checking. i like it!!
Great point! :)
Great way to check I will have to try it thanks.
OK I have a Grizzly G0453ZW with Parallelogram Beds. Meaning it is easier to align because of eccentric bushings rather than ways. All that said my in to out feed tables were not parallel pretty much like Garage works was. I had not seen this video yet and did have a dial indicator for checking parallel to the cutter head. I did use the straight edge method and used the dial indicator mounted on the fence moving the outside of the out feed table up until the the straight edge was pretty flat across both tables. Then I had to readjust the out feed to the height of the cutter head as that changed a lot, Now all boards are square and the glue face is very flat on my boards. I like what he did and will ck it now that I know how.
Nicely done and well explained. Thank you!
Another question - and I see your jig would be VERY helpful in this measurement as well - a measurement at different depths of cut... We ASSUME the infeed table moves exactly in a way to keep the infeed in that same co-planer manner as the first measurement... but as a machinist, I realize repeatability and consistency is key. Thoughts?
Keep in mind that the two tables are only coplanar when the depth of cut is zero. All other depths of cut other than zero are no longer coplanar - they are maintained parallel.
It was an assumption that I made as well. I never explored changing the depth of cut and it’s impact on maintaining parallel.
did you make a before and after cut, would be interesting to see if it made a difference
Great video. Thank you for the effort
finally some science to adjust a tool. i cant stand people and their " straight edges " nice job. straight edge will get you close but im not looking for close im looking for perfect.
thanks
But don’t you ideally need to have the measuring device you made at the very back of the infeed table and the tip of the dial indicator at the very edge on the mark you made on the outfeed table? To get the full sweep of the plane?
i missed the reason for the 4 small legs glued to the wooden block. wouldn't the flat block slide on the infeed table just as well.? i like your idea and a nice explanation too, gonna try this very soon thanks.
Much easier to flatten and guarantee flatness for 4 small legs. Significantly less surface area.
thankyou
Thanks, worked great!
Nice jig, I'll have to get a dial indicator. It will come in handy for a bunch of stuff, as you say. What model jointer is that? I have a model 54 and it looks very similar but I have a handwheel where you seem to have a more of a knob.
Great idea and video. I am close to completing a complete rebuild of a Rockwell/Delta longbed 8 inch jointer. I have swapped out cutter head with a Byrd Shelix head and I am now beginning to get things aligned. I am assuming that the outfeed table sits at the same height as the highest cutter on the Byrd head, is this correct? Is the process first to set the infee/outfeed tables to be co-planer, then align cutter head to this?
Thanks in advance
First get the outfeed/infeed parallel with the long axis of the cutterhead. Then confirm that the infeed/outfeed tables are parallel to each other. Set the outfeed table to be flush with the cutterhead cutters at top-dead-center. Coplanar with regard to jointer tables is a misnomer. A jointer with coplanar tables will not function as a jointer - think parallel.
Excellent method for check the accuracy! I'm going to apply this to a jointer I recently acquired. Thanks!
Good and useful video!
Thank you
Good advice.
6:30 were you able to figure out why the indicator moved 0.003" within the last inch? Also, don't you need to first make sure the in-feed table is parallel to the cutter head? Watching a Grizzly factory setup video their instruction is to shim the cutter head parallel to the in-feed table then adjust outfeed to in-feed table. Your indicator/math method has to be much more accurate any straight edge feeler gauge method.
It resulted from the act of pushing the jig. You want to take your start and stop readings at rest.
Are you saying that the far end of that long lever arm remains at the same height when perched on those wooden feet only 3 inches apart? That seems to introduce quite a bit of error. What am I missing?
The method described is very robust and very repeatable. I don’t understand the source of error that you are attempting to describe. Try it.
Great method to get it pretty close, but there’s still some variants you would need to calculate for...
Pretty close? Ok.
I ran out to Harbor Freight and bought a dial indicator (what), came home and built the jig (what), 15 dollars later (what) realized I don't have a jointer.
Great! You can still use the DI. I think I've demonstrated close to a dozen alignment uses for a DI on my channel so far :)
Great video. I just bought a dial indicator to align my jointer knives dead on. Now I'll build your jig to check the tables. But here's my question. Now that both tables are aligned, do you also leave the in feed table alone? If so, what is the recommended depth of cut?
If you need to shim your jointer, only shim the outfeed table. After shimming the outfeed table you don't want to adjust it anymore. Only make adjustments to the infeed table.
I understand that. What I'm wondering is can the in feed table go out of plane by adjusting the depth of cut? If so I wold think that it would be wise to get the depth of cut you want and make sure the two tables are still totally parallel. Therefore I would want to leave the in feed side alone as well and what is the ideal depth of cut, 1/16th?
+sandmandave2008 The infeed table shouldn't go out when adjusting the depth of cut. I don't know if there is an ideal depth of cut. I increase my depth when boards are really out of flat and decrease when they're not. If it does go out of plane when adjusting then I'd do what you suggested by setting it at a non aggressive depth. A 1/16" should be good.
@@sandmandave2008 If your infeed table goes out of plane as you change cut height, you have a problem you cannot fix with adjustments. It is a flaw in the engineering of the machine. Should not be a problem if your system uses ways. I had a small, cheap jointer whose infeed pivoted on four parallel swing arms as you changed cut height. One or more pivot points was machined "off" so the arms were not really parallel. I set it to be on plane with my outfeed at 1/32" cut. If you moved it up or down it went off plane.
this is probably not necessary, but what about using only 3 pieces as the feet for your block that holds your indicator?
sub earned
I don’t see any problem with that. Would eliminate the need to flush four feet.
@@GarageWoodworks Just used this method to setup the new Grizzly Jointer Planer Combo I got last month....thanks for sharing
COOL !!!
Thank you very much. You are so intelligent and saved my life.
Not sure if a straight edge is needed as primary tool If one uses a dial gauge even without the jig you built.
Theory:
If the tables are flat, then can’t one use a dial indicator to match two corner measurements of the infeed table (at the corners closest to the blade) with the two closest corners of the outfeed table?
If these four points are adjusted to be the same, shouldn’t the endpoints of each table have the same dial gauge reading -+ .002” if each table is flat with little runout relative to the 4 points of measure of the two feed tables identified above?
I tested this out last night on a jointer given to me (I pretty much took it apart) and checked with a straight edge and the results were consistent with my theory. Or maybe I got lucky?
Brian, is this harder to do with a parallelogram jointer? Now we have 4 areas which can be adjusted rather just two areas (shimming on each side of the dovetail way). Also, I have a Grizzly 858 parallelogram jointer and have trouble keeping the tables adjusted. Have you ever had this problem or know what I could do fix it or at least figure out why it is moving? Thanks.
Way easier adjusting parallelogram jointers. I have a hammer a3-31, and I’d much rather turn a few nuts that mess with shims. As far as keeping adjustment- I prefer not to mess with the jointer depth much, if at all. Keep it shallow and multiple passes. Moving things around always has the potential for shifting something.
It seems like this will indeed make the parallel, but not necessarily coplanar. Imagine that both planes are tilted at and extreme 4 degrees but perfectly parallel with each other. Both of the tests you performed would show 0, right? But they would be nowhere near coplanar. \ and \ are parallel but not coplanar.
The only time the tables of a jointer are coplanar (in the same plane) is when the cutter depth of the infeed table is set to zero. If your infeed and outfeed tables are parallel with each other, and the infeed table is set to a greater than zero cutting depth, then they WILL be coplanar at a cutting depth of zero. If both tables are 4 degrees tilted but are parallel you will still have a perfectly functional jointer (as long as the tables were tilted about the axis of the cutterhead) that will also have coplanar tables at a cutting depth of zero; the only difference will be that the tables will be not parallel to the floor the jointer is resting on and will be tilted by 4 degrees.
I think it's possible that part of your confusion is coming from the term "coplanar". Coplanar only means that two planes would occupy the same plane in space. Parallel jointer tables can cut wood whereas coplanar jointer tables will not. Please let me know if this is still not clear.
Agree.... I need to ponder more and perhaps have more coffee. :) It isn't setting well with me. :) It seems like the goal is to have them coplanar while flush with the cutters (0 cutting depth).
Again, if the tables are parallel with each other they will by default be coplanar at a cutting depth of zero; it's unavoidable.
Agree. All that is being aligned here are the ends of the tables. You did a great job and it is a novel idea for solving a vexing problem, and I agree that three points of reference make parallel surfaces, but that is by measuring from one stationary point. Your jig is moving as you measure. Also, that .003 difference early in the video should be made zero because that affects every measurement thereafter. I tried different methods to align my jointer tables also, but the best method seems to be a straight edge. You don't need to spend $100 to buy a straight edge. I use an extruded aluminum (window) mullion from Lowe's +-.0005 accuracy. If you could back up your method with a straight edge measurement after you were done, I would be impressed and concede that your method works. Dude! Take a breath before you pass out. lol
Robyn Secor How would I know if a mullion is within that kind of tolerance if I were to go to Lowe’s and buy one?
That was simplest explanation I've seen for checking a jointer.
Thank you.
That's a slick trick there buddy! But my question is this. How do you have a granite surface plate (a precise tool that costs $100s) but you dont have a precise straight edge ($25 on Amazon)
$100’s? Try $45. Why would I need to use a straight edge for this? This is a much better method.
@@GarageWoodworks I'm not saying I'd use the straight edge, but I would definitely own one. They really come in handy for other purposes. Ad $45 for a vood surface plate is SUPER cheap, where did you get it?
What makes you think I don’t own one? I own a long straight edge but I’d never use it for alignment. It’s not accurate enough and it’s a much slower process. See Woodcraft or Amazon for the plate.
@@GarageWoodworks the first of the video you said you did not have a precise straight edge...
Key word is “precise”. They need to be long enough to extend over a good portion of the in feed and out feed tables. And be precise.
Nice!
WOW. Thanks!!!!
THANK YOU, THAT'S THE BEST DAMNED EXPLAINATION I'VE SEEN ON THIS SITE. IT GOT ME THINKING AND I'M GONNA BUILD ONE USING RARE EARTH MAGNETS OR TWO DIAL INDICATOR BASES ON A BASE MADE OF SQUARE EXTRUDED ALUMINUM TUBING WITH AN ADJUSTABLE ARM SLIDING IN THE MAGNETIC BASE. SLIDING WILL ALLOW USEAGE ON DIFFERENT LENGTH JOINTERS AND BE ABLE TO USE ON THE KNIVES AS WELL. THANKS AGAIN, I'M HEADING FOR THE BRIDGEPORT.
It is amazing all the things we assume and should never have... I am guilty as charged! The factory knows how to build them not necessarily dial them in.
Yeah. It's possible that my jointer was more closely aligned when I bought it, but over time it has sagged; I'll never know :)
Sorry sir , I'm question with you this Japanese product..??
This trick would only works if the infeed and out feed tables are flat and free of any twists. Otherwise it wouldn't work. Unfortunately the fastest way to check for flatness or twist is still with a straight edge
No. You are incorrect. This method would still detect non-flat tables as the indicator needle would rise then fall for non-flat. This method can also detect a twist: a twist could be confirmed by following the method in my video and use two paths down the length of the table - one away from the fence and one near the fence; both paths would not have the same readings on the dial indicator if the table is twisted. The straight edge method would also have to be done twice to detect twist.
The ONLY way my method does not work is if both the infeed and outfeed tables have identical (and symetrical) twists/deformations which would be so statistically improbable that it could be stated as impossible.
Sorry... who says the infeed table isn’t rising as you slide the the base.
And the rest of the story might include adjusting the height of the outfeed table to match the top of the jointer knives...
+Wave Trader Actually no. Once the shims are in you don't want to touch the outfeed adjuster again. I realigned the knives.
The only real thing stopping me from doing this right now is me imagining how out of parallel my jointer actually IS. :O
+Randy Allaway Chances are that if your jointer is performing ok, then it won't be that far off. Be brave :)
Funny, I actually took the knives out to sharpen them the other day, so I guess I might as well! Oh, and thanks for the video, Brian!
I don't know about this. There is room for significant error, including flex over the length of the arm and compression of the wood feet and base. It might be useful to double check this method with a straight edge or, better yet, two 12" drafting triangles met over the cutterhead. I hope it's confirmed.
What error? There is no flex. If there was flex I’d see it in the needle as noise. This method is repeatable. Double check with a straight edge? This method is accurate to the +|- 0.001”. That’s like confirming a caliper measurement with a tape measure.
@@GarageWoodworks Have you ever checked it with a straight edge or drafting triangles?
FAW3 It’s not rational to check an alignment performed with a high degree of accuracy with a less accurate method.
Did you go on a run before recording this? You sound like you are out of breath all the time :O
Thanks for the tip though, going to try it right now!
+Sigurd van de Wiel I squeezed this video in while filming a different project. I was running around.
Very clever, thanks a lot for sharing! :-)
Very clever - and apparently the technique works! Thanks (p.s. none of my business but you might consider some cardio - you seemed badly out of breath and you're younger than me by a fair bit!)
The term you are looking for is coplainer. Technically parallelism is only 2d. While in geometric dimensioning and toleranceing practice coplainer is not used to define two planes being, well coplainer, in math that is the term you are looking for
+attainableapex Incorreect. The tables are ONLY coplanar when they are in the same plane. Because a jointer does not function when the tables are in the same plane AND because the alignment occurs when out of the same plane, it is more correct to say "parallel". Think of bicycle tires when riding straight; the tires in this case are coplanar. Jointer tables, when cutting, are always non-coplanar; they are however parallel.
Parallelism is not limited to 2D in mathematics. Here's a 3-minute refresher on parallel objects (plane and line, two planes, two lines). Here we're concerned with two parallel planes, which when perfectly aligned end-to-end (zero cutter height) they become coplanar and thus useless as a jointer. www.brightstorm.com/math/geometry/geometry-building-blocks/parallel-planes-and-lines/
Carpenters think they ar micro mechanics. Use a long plane and don´t talk so much that´s my advice.