Release LESS music. Make it MORE memorable (ft.
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- Опубліковано 4 гру 2023
- Streaming platforms don't value your work, so don't work on their schedule.
I chatted with acclaimed artist Tony Anderson (@TonyAndersonMusic ) about the state of streaming, and what artists should focus their attention on in today's noisy world.
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I think the most telling concept in this video is the thought that so many people gave up releasing music after 2 years, because they "didn't make it". If you aren't driven to keep making music, painting, drawing, singing - or whatever your art is - regardless of success levels, then perhaps it's just not for you? No shade if that's the case. Personally I made music for about 10 years without it going out anywhere apart from amongst close friends and family because the internet wasn't a thing yet. Today at least I can share some of it online and it's amazing that a few hundred subscribers now seem to enjoy and donate for the opportunity to listen. If that's your mindset too then today is a great day.
Absolutely. That’s a great outlook.
Beautiful, and exactly my perspective.
Yep if you really enjoy it you'd be doing it anyway regardless of success, or if you're just writing songs for your dog lol. I definitely got caught up in trying to release something which in itself is mental energy which can be directed into the creating. Even thinking "I am an artist, musician xyz..." Is unnecessary bandwidth, end of the day they are just descriptions and labels.
@@daynemin "Dance like nobody is watching." 👍
The main learning I have finally, finally gained in my life: The fun of making is the most important part. I always had such an admiration for the old masters of any craft who say they are a “student of the world” even after doing amazing things, but it took me so long to connect that you have to make the learning fun for your brain to keep your heart aloof. And it takes time and listening.
Use a healthy rhythm of mentally active and mentally calm, and if you don’t have that, then go for that first. Not the views, the results, etc. Get to a place where the learning can be fun, and let yourself learn.
Then, the outside noise gets quiet.
“Our job is to create the music so that people have a companion in the midst of their pain.” Love that.
Thank you so much. This was a wonderful conversation! I'm 58, and I've had a long but mostly unprofitable musical career but I'm the kind of person that reinvents themselves periodically so I'm often starting again. My latest passion is revisiting my love of synthesizers from the late 1970s, combining it with my mathematics degree and making mathematical music that's also listenable. Perhaps nobody will like it. I don't care. I will probably like it a lot.
Look at the work of Robert edward Grant a polymath who attributes music and mathematics to the pyramids fascinating work he has done .
@@Wolfbabypuppylove Thank you, I will go and look into that!
We live in a world where everything is quantified. Art cant be quantified.
This is one of those videos, to which I will come back to over and over again to rewatch. This is a message every artist out there should hear. Thank you both so much for this video!
I’ve had three of the least productive years of music making. The entire time has just been me constantly failing. But much like you said, maybe this has been the most productive thing. To not release much and face failure to find substance. I worry about the stats from time to time having deleted all my social media. But I think that really removes the ego aspect and just focuses on quality too.
Thanks for the words and we Love you homie ❤️
Thanks for the kind words! It’s an exercise in patience and longevity for sure. Best wishes!
Definitely release your work when it's nurtured and ready, not because you feel the pressure to release. If your musical ideas need to be in an album, release an album. Don't feel the pressure to release singles and EPs (although that's what we do mostly out of practical reasons these days). We're a lot more chilled about creative droughts and slow development of ideas. If your fans are true fans, they'll wait.
This is a breath of fresh air. The amount of obnoxiousness that exists on the internet (not just in music) because we all “have to put out more content more frequently” is exhausting. Anytime I’ve chased that illusive dragon (which admittedly I’ve done), I’ve been left feeling cheated and kinda dirty at the end. I’m much more happy and proud of the works I poured my everything into even if it didn’t hit big numbers. As Tony said, I’m an artist and of course I want people to enjoy my work. So I’m choosing to bet on the long game with quality even if it goes against the “experts”.
Great to hear some intelligent and creative guys speak beyond the hype and focus on "Making it." Thank you!!
This is so good. I've been on this music production journey for almost 8 years now (I'm 29) and I have not released a single song. I'm first of all thankful and happy that I found this lifelong hobby, I've always had a job which lets me spend some money on it (good pc, speakers and all that) and last but not least, I'm mastering my craft. When (if) I start releasing songs, I will be fkn happy about it and I will not give numbers any thoughts (I hope). I think it's all about building worth in you in whatever you do. That worth that you've built up during the years, will hopefully show in your craft.
thank you. As someone that has made music for 30 plus years, I hate the current system and I have been in the same way of thinking for sometime, I just thought I was wrong and that there was no escaping the algorithm.
I agree with the sentiment, for me I can't do my best work unless I know it's going to be released. If I'm not going to release it, I just stop at 80% finished and the music gets lost in the 'Work In Progress' folder never to be finished. I don't feel any pressure to release, and I'm not pushing to any external cadence, but releasing a piece of music lets me finally move on to something new.
We need to stay focused on our art, not our platform, DAW, hair do, clicks, hits, likes, thumbs, whatever. Frank Zappa, one of the least mainstream of composers, said that he made music that he wanted to hear. If other people wanted to hear it, all well and good. And he had quite a career, and still has a following, may he rest.
I've been playing, writing, and recording myself for almost 15 years and I finally found my voice. It really can take a while, but the journey produces some incredible things.
This is a great message and reality check to artists in 2024. Put the noise-cancelling headphones on your brain and get to work.
Having just come off a month of getting sick two separate times and each time needing a week to recover, combined with being a stay-at-home Dad with sick kids, then you're wife gets sick...yeah, this was just what I needed to hear. The algo race isn't a reasonable one to live by if you're an artist. I'll be uploading to socials once a month now. That way I don't have to feel guilty for being human.
Mr. Anderson is certainly on the right track. 1) I remember his music and 2) I keep coming back to it. The guy is phenomenal.
Love this, great interview. Tony is a great human, and you are too! It's a super tough time to be an artist, whether you are established or not. So hopefully this video packed full of insight gets seen far and wide to help as many musicians as possible.
Thanks man!
What a beautiful and necessary reflection. It is surprising how against the grain this advice feels at the moment, on the internet, when the substance of it does not seem very different from the advice a new artist would receive 200 years ago.
I think it’s really valuable that two professional musicians remind us that yes, even in the age of new devices and new platforms, it is still the old things that matter: the introspection, the quality over quantity, and the timeless aspects of our creations.
Thank you for taking this on. It's a huge subject and just as I see the two of you as very different people, I see these questions being subtly different for every artist.
Hip hop is fifty, House is Forty years old. The vast majority of people producing music in electronic media are working in a genre derived in some way from one or other of these historical art forms and possibly from both. The huge industry that is contemporary music sees these artists as quantifyable and processable and if you want to monetize music you write so you don't have to do a job you hate in order to pay the bills.
Mozart was a liveried servant for most of his life. He rarely got to write what was in his heart and when he did it was not understood. Had he not died when he did he would have bankrupted himself. He was resentful that what he considered his great work was not appreciated. Here was a famously gift musician, trained for stardom from a very early age, it's an all too familiar pattern.
I fervently believe that artists are not the best judges of our work and we should not be offended when what we think of as our best work is overlooked and we should feel pleasantly surprised when our audience responds to things we feel are trivial or even unfinished.
The comment about being unable to function as artists if we live in fear is contradicted, for example, by the poetry, painting and music created in the face of extermination inside the Nazi concentration camps. Fear of failure is very real fear and it is paralysing.
As artists we must make. If we don't make we are wanabee artists.
If we make only what other people want us to make because we think it's what sells, we are not artists.
If we make only what the designer of our DAW or our Sampler expected us to want to make, we are not artists.
I was really inspired by a biographical documentary about the visual artist Keith Haring whose incentive or compulsion to make was really extreme. He had a very personal and identifyable style and he put his work out there as if it were graffiti in public places, free for people and his persistence bore fruit when people recognised it and loved it and went looking for it.
Will they want your work? Will they come back again and again? These are not reasons to make your work. The minute you allow the audience to decide how your art should be you are no longer an artist, you're a shop keeper.
Spotify just laid off 1500 people - sounds like a solid business model.
Tony is a very Wise person... I can't even explain how important his message is... Now, when the world needs us, artists the most... We are lost in the race for absolute nonsense like "trends" or "hype". Instead of speaking about something important and beautiful. You know, I will spread this message. Already sent some quotes from this video to my friends. THIS should be known, and understood by every artist I know.
Thank you for such a treasure of YT video. And HUGE thanks to Tony for coming. Added to "favorites" playlist 👍
This is so good. Thanks both. I really appreciate the 9/11 example. Despite being confident my songwriting is clever, non-cliched and timely, I can’t get anyone to listen as I have no audience. Yet, I do have inner conviction, and a sense that this is what I’m supposed to do. It’s just not mirrored.
I've seen Andrew Masters' video with Tony Anderson, he's like the coolest composer in the world. Love to hear from him!
Key moment at 16:37...damn!... Aim for artistic timelessness.
Aaaah Nice to have Tony on this channel
He’s the man
I don’t really care if anyone likes my music or not. I just make music. That will never stop.
Really great, insightful stuff from both of you. Totally agree - it's so tempting to get drawn in by the numbers as initially they're seen as the thing that validates what you're looking for - people hearing your work and, as Tony says, connecting with it. But it is so easy for those numbers to become the focus of the work, rather than the byproduct of it, and at that point you've lost the point of it all. And if you can pay the bills on the back of the art you create then amazing - you should be applauded. You're living the dream. If you can't, then keep going if the creation of that art is serving you and your needs. But also have another job!!
Ive been realising more and more that the beauty of classical music is that it is aiming to capture the generalised structure of music as an abstract entity itself as well as simultaneously express human emotion and spirit.
More the deepest Art comes in creating a multi leveled, emotionally real but relatable invention, that isn't contrived and only rule based, but isn't hopelessly boring and generic either because it is just your inner confusion or presumptions
I also wanted to add: if you follow this quality / letting things take time method (which you should), you also need to accept the fact that what YOU think might be your best song ever might not resonate with people very much at all, whereas a song you might not expect to do well may end up really helping your career. That happened to me, and it was very hard to reconcile. But at the end of the day, if you understand this and make sure that even if you have your own favourites, you are truly proud of every piece of music you put out, then you realize it doesn't really matter which ones do well and which ones don't. Taste is so subjective, and as long as you genuinely like what you put out, eventually others will too.
Absolutely. Great point.
In my experience, my opinion on my own work has changed over time as well - sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse. But I know that all of it was exactly what I wanted to make at the time.
I would love to see the world return to quality over quantity 🥰 I think creators of all mediums could benefit from this advice in the long term
Wow what an amazing video... we gotta stop playing the "content/algoryhm game" and perfect our craft. Its the only way to impact people and have a good career.
Love it. Tony spewing out the inspiration in his speech as well as his music. Thanks to you both for this conversation 🤍
Thank you Tony , Thank you Jameson. Its difficult to find the right balance these days. Qty over Quality and the oposite.
Thank you both very much for your sincerity, great content. ✌🏼
Man, did I need to hear this. As someone who’s getting ready to put some new music into the world, this 1000% the perspective to take. Thank you, gentlemen.
As a hobby, I've been making(attempting) techno for the last few years.
I've been trying to do so every day, learning, practicing, and following courses, and I even joined an online academy to improve my work.
I want my tracks to be as good as they can be, clear in execution, mixing, and mastering, but most of all, to tell the story I want to tell.
It is my techno, the techno I make for myself. It is the kind of techno that I'd love to hear when I attend a festival. Or when dancing at a club or home with my eyes closed.
My goal, however, is much smaller. I don't care if nobody listens to it; I don't need to sign a label, and if I never earn a dime with it, I'd be totally cool with that.
And if one day, some person at a club -because some obscure DJ played it-, or even just at home, hears my track, and it touches them on an emotional or spiritual level, that is good enough for me.
Thank you for this video :)
Great video. Create create create
This isn't exactly parallel but I work for a public school teachers union; there is a shortage of teachers and the call always is "we just need more teachers faster...so let's just get some people and do some kind of quick training with them and drop them in a classroom!" Yes, that gets a warm body in front of students but says little about the capabilities or preparation of that person. The retention rate for these teachers is quite low; they burn out because they don't have the undergirding and training to teach. Things take time to do well; you don't want a dentist who 'did some online training and watched a lot of UA-cam'. You get to the place you need to be by actually doing the thing over time.
That was 22:58 of the most profound music discussion made this year - full of wisdom. Thank you, JNJ, (and TAM), for your creativity, your talent, your deep thoughts, and most importantly, for your empowering creations to emotionally move me as I reflect on my personal experiences of life. You perhaps did not realize this when you were writing...your music touches my very soul. You are one of my favorite artists.
This is such a brilliant conversation!
That was brilliant! Thank you so much for sharing this conversation, guys!! One of your best and most informative videos for sure.
This is one of my favourite UA-cam videos ever. Thank you!
Def needed to hear this. By the way, deadmau5 said recently that one of his regrets are signing to a label. He wants to re-do some of his popular tracks (faxing berlin) but he is not allowed to.
That's why I subscribed to this channel. You make me listen to the right voices in my head.
Great video, I'm just trying to figure out music, but I've been a 2d artist most of my life. I've always kept art as a hobby because I knew that, for me, if it ever became a job, it would be a source of stress rather than a source of relaxation/happiness.
That's what I believe. 100%. Thanks for sharing your points of view. I'm feeling less alone now.
Excellent video Nathan (and Tony)!
Love this conversation. I feel that it applies to so many artistic forms, to an extent.
Yes. I think this is wonderful in showing that music making is an inner process.
I also see people dependent on ticket sales, streaming numbers, etc.
In the production of their songs something gets lost and I (imagine/can) hear the fear of not being validated by others. Predictable song structures, tming correction, Melodyne and commiting to sounds the potential listener can hear on a mobile phone makes it gravitate to mediocrity.
They hustle 3 to 6 months to get a live gig on a local club. So most of the "artist energy" goes into promotion.
I listen to a band from Denmark called Silo. They made a lasting impression 20 years ago and it is quality output. Modern, progressive and timeless at the same time. They obviously don´t care about numbers and promotion. But their A L B U M S are like journeys to the point where you can hear your soul wanting to breathe more.
I am huge fan of Telefon Tel Aviv. I always watch 1 or 2 times a month what Joshua Eustis is doing. He and his musical partner Charlie Cooper saved my life, gave me hope in the darkest times of my life. The reinterpretation of Digital Bath from the Deftones is so deep and it wasn´t even on the compilation of the White pony remix album. Imho this is such a dvine piece of audio and wasn´t even considered to be on the album or it did take such a long time, that the album release was "too soon" to finish the reinterpretation. Give it a try and then you´ll hear what Tony and JNJ have meant in their youtube essay.
Big, big thank you, JNJ, for opening up and for trying to explain the process of finding the inner artist in ourselves.
As a music fan I´d like to hear more music that I feel connected with and over the last 10 years it is more time consuming to find those new gems that touch my soul. But they are there and worth to be found.
What a nice notion as an artist just to think that you can have a positive impact on how a day starts for a listener or that you might help someone getting through rough times.
One of the best messages in recent times. This needs to be told over and over again. Huge thank you to the both of you. Thanks for adding some sanity to this crazy circus called "music business".
right. I stoped feeling pressure for putting out
Such a good conversation. It is perfect for someone who is starting this journey. Even very early on I had to be intentional in recognizing that the only way I would ever be satisfied in making music is to make music regardless of algorithms and view counts. I may never form a career, but I will have something far more valuable: art I can love myself. And if someday people enjoy my music enough to pay me for it, then all the better - I will have more time abd space to make more music I love.
Wow! Needed to hear that. Thanks.
What a delight this was to watch and listen! Tony is one of my favorite musicians - hands down and it was really nice to hear his perspective. Thank you!!
So good. Thanks guys.
Great words ! Couldn’t agree enough! Thank you!
Welcome to the machine…don’t be a slave to the algorithm, the disinfo, the profiteers…
I know that I’m going to see this video many times in the future to recap some aspects. This is a gift you gave to us, thank you guys 🤍
PS: great to see Tony again, you both are an inspiration to us and I really want to hear a track from you together one day !!!
Excellent. Thank you 🙏🏻
I really appreciate your channel and how much thought goes into this.
Increasingly though I recognize a fundamental difference between what I do and what this channel is about. I am an amateur musician. I have no realistic aspiration to ever make one dollar from the music I make. I put my music on Spotify so myself and a few friends can easily hear it. I wonder how many people out there are aspiring to be professional musicians and how many are doing it only for the love of doing it. The same way that someone might take painting classes after work or care passionately for a garden. It seems to me that the revolution in music technology is primarily a huge change for the amateur. Someone with a job and family can now record music with tools once only available to a professional. To me, what’s missing online is much content targeting these people. It seems like there is a ton of content for people who want to 1) be professional musicians or 2) play stairway to heaven in their basement. I don’t want to do either.
I’m not criticizing you for being a professional musician or saying you should change what this channel is about.
I do think that I don’t envy you. I have enough stress in life. Music is beautiful to me partly because it isn’t the source of any stress. I don’t care about investing or owning or building or income. It’s just just a creative act.
I understand what you're saying. I do think this particular video is primarily for artists who would like to be heard, but at the same time I think a lot of the concepts are universal for all creatives.
I always try to focus this channel on things that are timeless rather than trendy - whether it's a musical concept or a broader creative concept. It was very nice to hear that Tony's perspective is similar.
❤
Spotify has to be more transparent with their artistes in terms of how they are paying with a monthly breakdown of how much and why
That would be nice, but without legitimate alternative platforms, they don’t have to do anything.
Great discussion and insights! 🙏
These are great and important thoughts. Thank you both
This is so awesome. Say "thank you" to Tony. He is absolutely right. I publish my music on SoundCloud. And I don't give much energy if there is a big audience or not. If I did it the other way, I maybe would have quit publishing music. During the last 2 years since I've started with SoundCloud, I had a bit more than 5000 plays in total. And the "most successful" track hast a bit more than 400 plays.
But hey, these are only numbers. I am totally fine with every song published there. Maybe the market is not existent for this. I don't care.
My two cents... While I agree we should all do our best to release quality music, I think being too strict with quality control can be detrimental to the growth as an artist. Here's why... Many aspects of the quality of music are subjective. Some of my songs that I thought were my least favorite in terms of quality end up being my listeners' favorite. If quality control keeps you from releasing music period, then you have less chances of reaching people and growing an audience. You could waste years waiting to create "quality" while at the same time you could have been releasing and building. Keep quality in mind but don't let it paralyze you. Only you will know when you've hit that threshold of "this is good enough to put out there." The algorithms will sort your best work to the top anyway. Many popular artists release songs they aren't perfectly happy with, but that never stops them from being successful.
So many good points in this video... Thank you!
oh Vienna
Man this couldn't have come at a better time as I'm planning my first release .. makes the last few years of hard work & dedication to finding my voice worth it.
amazing take, thnk you very much!
Great interview!!
I think there's a happy medium. Being productive is really good not because you get to practice more, and you also don't get the luxury to hold on too much on a single song as perfectionism can be crippling. On the other hand yeah, there's too much rushed crud on the artistic landscape these days. Having standards is more important than playing games with streaming.
When stream earnings are so low, I don't think it's just the platforms who undervalue music. It's the listeners themselves. Not judging anyone but people are just not willing to spend money to listen to music. I have a feeling us musicians are doing something wrong by relying on the streaming mechanisms, I'm just not sure of the solution. I know I'm going to try out different things going forward.
People forgot what the real journey is about. This was a great video Jameson, thank you!
Thank you for watching!
I've been releasing my stuff to SoundCloud, essentially for free since I started. I don't expect to make a dime from it but seeing people come back to the same song 8-10 times is pretty gratifying.
As far as output, I really prize finishing and releasing feels like the last part of finishing. It becomes art once it interacts with an audience for me.
That said, I appreciate the advice. I was spinning myself out because I wasn't being productive enough, and I need to excise that word from my thinking about this.
Well done, and well stated. Both of you. Thanks for this one, man.
👏👏👏
100%
Hamster chillout! 😜
Lofi Hamster
Just a note, at the beginning of the video you show one guy Tony(without introduction, and then you say…this is Daniel Ech? But it’s very confusing bc it looks like the same guy kind of.
good work, sir
Thank you!
This is right on. Way too much bad to mediocre, boring music coming out. The rise of the “Producer” has replaced the artist. AI is just going add to the sea of mass produced crap
"play the long game" absolutely but you still need marketing though. Doesn't matter how good your music is if nobody knows it exists.
I agree, but the foundation (the music) is the most important thing.
There’s too much focus on marketing today as a shortcut when the best results come from focusing on the foundation first.
Interesting
Pest control for hotels is an unpleasant experience
I imagine that is quite true sir
What is this gorgeous sound bed around 3:30 onward
jamesonnathanjones.bandcamp.com/track/one
:)
If you want to sell your music, then first you need to make music that you, yourself, would actually pay for. Luckily, you can differentiate between "would I pay $10 for a copy on bandcamp" vs "would I not pay that, but I might listen if it was part of a streaming service". If the latter is the goal, then the goalposts have been moved to an easily attainable place. The former level has a much higher bar for entry.
If you're not selling your music (freely accessible, not copyrighted or CC-BY), then publish whatever you want, and people can take it or leave it.
There's also club music, commissioned and library synch music, and so on. In that case, you would use your client's taste, rather than yours, as the metric. "If I were in their shoes, would I want to pay for this music?"
It only took me thirty seconds to hit Like on this video.
I love how he apologizes for calling us zoomers as if that’s an insult or something lol. Nah man it’s fine, that’s what we are. We’re zoomers and we’ll have to explain to our kids someday that no, we didn’t get our name because of that NASCAR thing.
yes I remember Eck's 'make more' speech. I know for myself I give myself a week to create something tangible that makes musical sense to me. Sometimes its way shorter and other times a bit longer. I do not like generalizations, and I know some of the specifics in regard to how other song writers and composers create. There is lots of written history and lots of interviews across generations.
I know I am a better cook than a musician, so with three or four ingredients and a few spices, I can create all manner of ethnic dishes. The best dishes are created quickly and served. I am not sure music is much different
It's definitely possible to "overcook" musically - as I think Tony referenced. But the ability to make something of high quality quickly usually comes after a lot of time working on the craft. As you mentioned with your cooking, you're highly skilled at that and have already built that muscle, so too much overthinking can sometimes dilute what you've created.
@@JamesonNathanJones I take Tony's points. You don't release every project you create to streaming services
I am in my mid 60s and
I am not sure what high quality even means anymore. Is that musicianship, shredding? , is it thoughtful progressions and arrangements, Is it the mix?
For myself its probably focused intent
I am curious on what the right balance is between cranking out music quickly and pouring my soul into a song and perfecting it as a beginner.
Obviously I could learn a lot more by writing a lot of music and it doesn’t make sense to spend a month on a song if my fundamentals aren’t even that good, but it also feels bad to not have anything I’m really proud of yet. It feels like I can’t talk about it because I don’t have much fully completed to show for it.
I think early on it's great to just write as much as you can. The repetitions are really helpful. For me, certain tracks I would make in those early years would sort of "step forward" as having more potential and I would spend more time polishing those into my first releases.
100s of 1000s a day!?!?!?!?!
Virtually noone is making money at streaming so fuck it, make good music that you enjoy making and aim for a niche fan base and placements.
Wait are you guys saying not to build your house upon the sand?? Hmmmm
One of the fundamentals I base my basis upon.
If you come up with a way to put this video into an IV drip let me know.
This is catnip for me. Daniel Ek has many terrible things to say and has done so much damage to musicians. No hamster wheels. Making lots of music in private and then unleashing it on the world is the way. We need people like you fighting for real Art in a world of Content.
This is why i dont have spotify 😂
My brother in christ play live and connect with actual humans
I've been performing live consistently for 26 years. It's possible to connect with humans through writing and recording music as well - that's how I met Tony.
Turn down the noise.