Welcome to Win-Win! If you enjoyed this conversation, do subscribe! All my guests are geniuses. Also please leave a witty comment below so the great algorithm god blesses this video, thank you 😉
@Liv… Hey lefty, cry harder about your supporters getting their own medicine. Hope you go and support that Home Depot cashier that got fired… but you won’t. Once a comrade goes down, you make them fend for themselves. Coward.
Not sure how YT took me from exercise and physiology in menopause to this, but I loved listening to you while I made my comfort food during a cold rainy day.❤
That was a great conversation! Definitely subbing to David Shapiro. He reminds me a lot of Peter Attia in how well he articulates his thoughts and arrives at very realistic conclusions rather than fighting unrealistic perfection all the time. It's a very human way of looking at the world.
2 of my fav channels having a crossover episode (I’m counting all 731 of Shapiro’s different channels as 1 for the purposes of this comment lmao)?! Hell yea 🔥🍿
I never comment, but what you are doing is incredibly important. Don't worry so much about reach and views (easier said) but aim to really impact those watching already. Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come. Keep it coming. You should be proud.
Extremists can find each other very easily because they are extreme. It is the nuanced people who need to take more time if they want to be in a group or community that is harmonious
Agreed on the multiple forms of abandonment giving rise to nihilism. Kudos to David for being a vanguard against it. I have a love/hate relationship with the cycle of generations (Saeculum) making Millenials the hero generation, but I must agree with David that it's abundantly clear that we're it. Would love to see a part 2 between you two in the future!
Aligning humanity, banishing Moloch is surprisingly simple if you accept the solution. We must all agree on the shared goal of meeting EVERYONE'S fundamental emotional and physical needs unconditionally. Refusal if this goal is idiological and due to lack of understanding of human nature and the definition of fundamental human needs. (That which lacking will lead to pathologies)
Meeting everyone's emotional needs could be a serious challenge, if not downright impossible, but we could do MUCH better. Meeting everyone's physical needs is possible this very moment, but not under capitalism, which drives to remove most people's physical needs and concentrate them in the hands of the few. The solution isn't socialism, as that's not really even a different system. However, a RESOURCE BASED ECONOMY combined with the ethics that you mentioned would be worth a try
I went to meet Jacque Fresco. He was a huge inspiration to me. All I do is manifest what he and Peter Joseph inspired in me. I believe the effective way to bring about a transition to a world in which we all strive to meet everyone's fundamental emotional and physical needs voluntarily in a decentralized way is by raising awareness about this proper definition of fundamental human needs: that which lacking causes pathologies. While working in raising awareness about this we can also foster altruism with altruistic networks that enable P2P mutual aid. All it takes is getting 100 people to join one (I'd recommend one but then my message will be considered spam and removed). We are kickstarting altruistic networks all over the world. It works and is the progress towards an RBE
@@andrasbiro3007 the current economy has little to do with allocating resources effectively. It's a system driven by profit, and real thing it allocated, capital. It requires growth and debt to even function. A resource based economy isn't driven by any of these psychotic statistics. It's based on what is ACTUALLY NEEDED and where, rather than what is profitable. It doesn't thrive off of scarcity, but instead tries to make sure there is abundance of the thing human beings need to live well. It would also get away from the driving consumerism and needless consumption this economy requires
Love this channel and love you both but I gotta say, for my money, Moloch is not losing. Sadly. Very few people can see what you (we) see. And maybe I'm wrong, but THE EVENT appears to me to be imminent and unavoidable. All we can do now is pray, prepare and hope that THE EVENT is not too disastrous. Good luck everyone!
A fascinating conversation Liv. David's ideas are very interesting, it seems that under the different narratives he explores, he has a very deep optimism about humanity. I feel though that many of his ideas assume that humans have a common set of values, as if all humans are somehow in their quest for the same holy grail, but are interrupted and struggling through different paths and obstacles. I'm afraid that the world is so fragmented because people's (and the powers that be) holy grails are different, they have different goals and different values, therefore the solution to the state of the world right now might be more complicated than David suggests, if it even exist at all. Thanks for a very thought-provoking conversation.
Communication is the precursor for co-ordination and is the source of all of evolution. The Moloch problem is essentially a co-ordination problem. But it can't be solved until we develop a new form of communication.
This will be on my birthday! I should probably listen after the doddering fools debate to keep from being too nihilistic & full of despair (will probably just watch in context of the rfk response stream otherwise ... Idiocracy was on!y funny because it wasn't real). Anyway looking forward to, and the timing re other debate on this date is perfect!
This was a great discussion, thank you! I like that David mentioned Yuval Noah Hariri's Homo Deus. Ultimately, we as a society will need to realize that we define our meaning for our lives. Though I'm skeptical, when listening to both Liv and David over the last couple of months, some of the points that each have made, are win-winning me over
Delicious!! Love it. Very wholesome and fortifying. Thank you both for your great work! :) Def inspired, interested to participate and see how things pan out.
Regarding David's idea of just getting the well-formulated idea across to enough people will save the day. When I was a kid I used to think that one day the good people of the world would reach a critical mass and we would take over in a bloodless and welcomed revolution and all our values would change for the better over night. I've since come to the conclusion that 1. this assumes that we as a species move inexorably towards this more utopian perspective and 2. that this exact same process was followed by the bad faith actors of humanity and that they achieved critical mass centuries ago.
An archetype could relate/ represent Win - Win is Athena Pallas, the strategic wisdom that helps the hero to find the way or ways to the journey. The Greeks viewed her as a fighter equal to Ares (roman Mars, war and aggression). Ask Athena to fight Moloch!! keep in mind the heroic life is the conscious evolution, to consciously evolve means you are a Hero. much appreciation!
Recognizing narrative structure and our ability to construct new narratives is essentially the heart of post modernism. This doesn't solve our issues. What we need is the correct new narratives that can get us out of this insane system. Jonathan Rowson refers to this as Meta modernism. Still listening, but just wanted to point out that this alone isn't enough, as all the post modernists discovered decades ago
This is fantastic. I have been in an existential rut and these frames are very refreshing. I am excited to dig deeper into some of the ideas posed in this conversation.
Wonderful interview. Very happy you both spoke with each other. Finding a way to influence perspectives and shift the narrative could be really fun. Infinite games can also be collaborative (/non-win-lose). What would any examples be? Excited to get more traction in our efforts to shift the self-limiting narratives of the last 4k years. What are the next steps? What's missing from our toolbox? (Genuinely curious of collective insights)
First, thank you for the awesome conversation. Two of my favorite TY creators talking about my favorite subjects. This vid was too short. I could have listened for hours.❤ Second, as Neil Degrass Tyson pointed out if Thanos can kill off half the beings in the universe, why can't he just double the size of the universe? Instead of committing mass murder? Also, there are effectively infinite planets in the universe, and because there are so many planets, the idea of being able to fill them all up is ridiculous. Snap your fingers and make them all habitable. Not to mention, if you have the technology for interstellar travel, you can build habitable environments in space and never fill up the universe before it dies. The people made that decaying skull into a habitat. It is literally impossible to overpopulate the universe. Thanos' narrative was blinding him to the absolute truth about the amount of space in the universe. And seriously rabbits, dude, rabbits. You can't stop beings from multiplying. It's what we do. You could even argue that it's why we exist. Sorry for the rant, but that plot device always irritated me. 😅
Pretty hard to change the narratives though. They have a kind of viral quality in terms of their success that is hard to predict from the outset, and is likely to be heavily skewed towards various memetic tribes rather than a broader swath of the population. Schmachtenberger is a good example of finding the pocket among some group of people, but I'm not sure how transformative a perspective that complex is. I have no idea how to live in accordance with his perspective, and I can't imagine how society would function meaningfully in his paradigm
I'm also not certain about the convergence idea there. People have been talking about solutions forever and trying to converge on whatever it is that is the end point of all of this thinking, but ultimately it seems as though we're just in a landscape of tradeoffs and differences of opinion that cannot be resolved, and unless we create a technology like money which is a narrative as well as a fairly universal coordination mechanism, then we won't actually meaningfully shift things. Like, I'm jazzed about these ideas and this loose network online, but I know very few people who share a similar disposition and values stack. I can't coordinate with other people around these ideas because they sound like esoteric nonsense to them. At least with money it is obvious what to do with it to everyone even if there's entire intellectual disciplines built around how to relate to it more effectively. I'd like to be more optimistic about what I hear with all these conversations, but I often feel that at the end of the day I'm just a consumer of a genre of idealistic content rather than a person meaningfully engaged in a shift towards a better world. The cash value in my actual life is years of heavy depression and a further disconnect from people because I find it harder to relate to people when no one cares about the same things as I do. And of course it is my fault that this is my relationship to this stuff because I should just try harder or some bullshit like that.
a shorter definition of nihilism is the conjecture that there is no meaning *of* existence. you can also claim that there's no meaning *in* existence, but that's less plausible than existence as the sole singular reality having a meaning. that just doesn't seem to make sense, unlike meaning in life. nihilism in academic philosophy is often used to just negate the existence of some existent. someone can conjecture that stance-independent facts about what's delicious exist. a gustatory nihilist would say "no".
Printing press to Nietzsche straight line is an interesting observation. Not sure if he’s borrowing this from somebody, but it’s apt. In the same breath he mentions replacing that erstwhile religious cosmic relationship with something else. Why the need to replace it though?
I really struggle with your comment that tech people suffer for having to witness homelessness and drug abuse on their way to work. I live in san francisco and am in tech, and I think it's incredibly important for poeple to see what unintended consequences of elitism are. It was scientists who spent careers creating drugs to 'help cancer patients treat pain' that created the opioid crisis. These people should be reminded every day of their own potential to cause great harm in the culture. I don't know if they make the connection to themselves, but the connection exists none the less.
38:20 people "abusing" this system to do nothing are victims of some kind of emotional abandonment. Healthy people dont choose to not do anything all day.
42:35 - so, in a round about way, what you’re saying is: “games, unlimited games… …but no more games” 🙂 Yeah, when I was learning about gamification/motivational reasoning “serious games” was a big thing - choice architecture and systems thinking can lead to more intentional behaviour, more aligned with personal (or societal) values.
Abstraction is the way to distill complexity into simplicity. What is the abstract narrative to take humanity forwards respecting our evolutionary biology and diversity ?
I agree with a lot of the explanations of what the problem is, but doubling down on more self definitely is counterproductive to any kind of tribe life I'm just more of the problems that we already have.
"Your video making ideas are great, and the content you upload to your channel is great. I really enjoy watching your videos and appreciate your efforts. Thank you for sharing such great content!" When will you upload new videos?
Moloch is entropy. The entropy of an isolated system always increases. To escape Moloch (for now) we need to escape the zero-sum game of the isolated system comprised of the Earth/Sun energy system. This is why Elon's SpaceX mission supersedes everything.
are you sure this solve the problem or it is just an escape and derogation of an actual evolution taking place on Earth? to my view humanity cannot learn how to stop zero sum games just by going to Mars at this point, it will be an involution of human, as David Shapiro would say it would be one more "abandonment actually adding to Nihilism".
nihilism wrt meaning is an extremely plausible conjecture. we can't even agree what "meaning" is, or whether it is in fact a singular existent in life or whether there's just no fact of the matter about such questions, as different people just use words differently without fixed definitions. to guess that there is no meaning of existence seems quite plausible. if one thinks that there is a meaning of existence, feel free to explain what it is and how you access that knowledge. otherwise, it's just more plausible that it's a nonsense concept made up to cope with the unknown.
Don't dismiss what they knew back then when it was only alchemy. I think it had a lot to do with essences of elements and such. Not just failing at trying to turn lead into gold.
Moloch, that she keeps going on about, is a bit of a one-dimensional way to describe the human condition. But I still think everyone should at least listen to her once. I did. She's right. As much as I think that the world would be a better place with more women in power, I feel that we suffer a lot more from FOMO than men. I need my stuff / money / respect / admiration/ beauty even if, when lots of people have the same ambition, it certainly destroys all of us. And when that happens, it is not my problem, but everybody's problem, not my responsibility to prevent it.
Can cosmic abandonment be replaced by the superpower of coordinating to narrative? Also, I see moloch as in another way by not playing the social status game as a form of self abandonment, it appears in some nihilist meme are spreading the Gen-z's.
When they talk about "changing narratives", they're talking about the fact that you need to be intentionally brainwashed by preconceived stories which serve stability.
As the parent of 4 GenZ and the grandparent of two GenAlpha, I thank you Millenials, but as Doc said to Marty, "It's not you! It's your kids!" Please keep them from being over consumptive Moloch-driven Yuppies, keep the music and hippie vibe.
I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE these pods, however, I will offer that the purple horn chairs kindof make ya'll resonate like demons, to me. Probably not the effect desired.
Why would we want to try to replace religion? Oh yes, it’s difficult. As GK Chesterton once quipped, Christianity hasn’t been tried and found wanting. It’s been tried and found difficult
zombie concepts and magic uncritically mentioned in this episode: -limbic/reptilian system (myth, neuroscientists debunked this decades ago; limbic system is only meaningful in an anatomical sense, not a functional one as in the triune brain theory). -egregore (doesn't exist), -faith (perhaps do less faith, more critical thinking instead of surface-engagement with lofty concepts, like the meaning crisis via just saying stuff and gesturing at ideas).
I have to disagree, nihilism can be a great tool for defeating depression, low self esteem and acceptance. I think there is a lot of misunderstanding how to use nihilism. When you understand there is no meaning to your mental suffering, that is liberating!
@@LivBoeree Thanos was a single purpose entity; moloch is a phenomenon that continues and entrains all other phenomena into the maelstrom. Inevitability is one aspect of moloch, but there's anothere important thing, that it persists and entrains all into it.
I should have written, "the concept of moloch is a phenomenon..." because without that it suggests I think moloch exists and is real and dooms us all, which I don't, mostly. It's an attractor.
@@DaveShap Given your terms, I agree. I think of Moloch as a process or egregore that drives everyone to a worst-case outcome regardless of their better intentions. I don't see Thanos as that, but I can see Thanos as a part of the process.
"Hi! Liv. Fabulous podcast. 👏😊✌️🤟🖖😜👍 One thing. A documentary by 'Michael Moore,' comes to the forefront of my mind. May I? Suggest. That one. Review & watch. 'Mr. Moore's.' #movie titled #Capitolism It's very interesting & disturbing. 'Moore,' changed his thinking & discovered many key points 👉 of #truth 'Mainly we're all doomed without humane #Capitolist. There wouldn't be any funding or the positives in our worlds that we have today.' 😎🤘👍🌟 'Preservation Earth.' Your guest & you should also read 'The Hero with a 1000 Faces.' Another #JosephCampbell book. I'm really pleased with your creative, successful #podcast channel. Congrats! Good show!";) 😊
The universe and each human being that exists have no transcendental meaning and their existence does not point to any specific objective. One would assume that this would lead to a radically nihilistic stance, but that is not the case. Every apparent nihilist has his own desires and objectives. A radical nihilist does not exist. The very fact of proclaiming that condition contradicts the condition itself. The answer lies in human nature and what are the factors that result in human motivation. :)
It’s impossible to solve nihilism/despair without accepting that Christ is the saviour and at the centre of the grand narrative of existence. Everything else is insufficient for a reason and was always destined to be. ✝️👑
That's not true, even just by simple observation. There are plenty of happy people who don't believe such delusions. Yes, religion is a delusion. You aren't living in reality. That's fine, if that's what you want. But believing in a fantasy isn't really a great solution for depression
@@MattAngiono Happiness isn’t an indicator of a successful mode of living. The players talked about in Game A that are ruining everything for every are SUPER happy, but their actions and outlook are detrimental to humanity. Also, do you believe something came from nothing and order came from chaos? Yet my belief in an intelligent designer is delusional? 🤔 How is believing that nothing matters because apparently we are all just carbon based organisms with no free will that are just here by sheer coincidence therefore we have no inherent value in an unfeeling universe HELP people? 🤨
@@AyoOdimayo first, your claim was that someone can't escape nihilism or depression without Christ, which is why I pointed towards happy people who don't believe in such things. I didn't say happiness is the only measure of a life well lived. Happiness is just one feeling, but generally speaking, someone who feels happiness at least somewhat regularly isn't depressed or nihilistic. There are other important things about life beyond being happy. Feeling fulfilled or even content is a better way to look for a well lived life. Everything is relative in the end, so being happy is just part of it. Meaning comes from a lot of places, but mostly that's subjective. Human beings, as malleable as we are, craft our own meaning. Having kids and raising them is enough meaning for most people. For others, it's making something, anything, that benefits people. Maybe art, maybe technology, maybe a house, maybe a home cooked dinner. I don't personally believe in anything with certainty. Not a god, not a big bang, not a boogie man, or a tooth fairy or a man in red to being me stuff for being a good boy. I don't believe in the impossibility of things either. But I am willing to "believe" in the likelihood of things. The likelihood that there's a man-like being who created this universe "intelligently" seems absurd to me. Just as much as everything coming from nothing. Those are both absurd ideas that don't hold enough evidence to make me think otherwise. And there's A LOT of evidence on the big bang side... But I don't find it as a viable description as a "beginning" of the universe. I do think something similar is likely, but not that it was a literal switch from nothing to everything. I don't believe that there was ever a beginning. And therefor, there can't be a creator. Also, if there was a creator, you have to ask, who created the creator? Who's the god of God? "It's turtles all the way down"
@@MattAngiono “Everything is relative in the end” Once again this moral relativism you cling to is a nihilist position. If someone asked you in a public forum whether you believed the Zodiac Killer or BTK certainly did bad things, you wouldn’t say “I don’t know it’s all relative in the end.” So again, how does one lift themselves out a depressed/nihilistic state with the erroneous belief that “everything is relative” and mutable? We can “craft our own meaning” sure but on a long enough time frame it will inevitably lead to its logical conclusion - despair. Having kids and raising them can bring meaning but, by your logic, most likely subjecting them to the potential of a painful and unpleasant existence would actually be doing them net harm, so what reason would an atheist have to have them? Art, technology and dinner cannot supplant objective meaning. We will all find this out when everyone has to be on UBI and has all the “free time” they’ve wanted. There’s no “maybe” about it. You say you “don’t believe anything with certainty”, yet if someone did heinous acts to someone you loved and you were the only witness, would you be certain that they did an objectively bad thing and thus report them to the authorities? Or would you sit there and ponder over whether it was objectively bad or merely an action that took place that was an inconvenience to your loved ones? God is not “man-like” in any way, he doesn’t resemble or can be compared to anything in Creation. The only option you have to believe in the coincidental creatio ex materia narrative. God is uncreated. There is no question of “Who created God?” when we’re dealing with an uncreated being. If anyone just sat down for an hour on UA-cam and purposely looked for all of the evidence for Jesus on all of the channels that they suppress, it would take much less time for them to see that he is without doubt the truth of all things. He who will not return to the truth must follow error to its end. ✝️👑
It's not De-pathologize, it's re-pathologize, and meaning is derived from Initiative without incentive, OOPs forgot it's Youboob, BTW in that chair Liv you should be hosting bad shlock-horror binge from the 70's in some sort of Lingerie., OOPs again "UA-cam"...
There will never be a "post"nihilism. Once people emerge from the ignorance of telling themselves that God is dead and realize the nature of Source, they will attempt to slay Such in like a Return of the Jedi Abraham Abimelech moment. It's as dumb of a coinage as "post"modern or "post"renaissance although I sort of get what he's sayin'.
Welcome to Win-Win! If you enjoyed this conversation, do subscribe! All my guests are geniuses. Also please leave a witty comment below so the great algorithm god blesses this video, thank you 😉
You might have called it Non Zero Sum 🤪
War is man's attempt to pull hell up through the ground and get a good look at it.
@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb yes I wanna get Nate on here soon
@Liv… Hey lefty, cry harder about your supporters getting their own medicine. Hope you go and support that Home Depot cashier that got fired… but you won’t. Once a comrade goes down, you make them fend for themselves. Coward.
“Wahhh, right wingers are getting people fired, waaahh”
Cry harder.
Hey algorithm, this video is good. Trust me, I know these things.
I only came here cause she is crying on twitter. She is a whiny liberal loser.
Idn't dat cute.....
*BUT IT'S WROOOOONG!!!*
Not sure how YT took me from exercise and physiology in menopause to this, but I loved listening to you while I made my comfort food during a cold rainy day.❤
That was a great conversation! Definitely subbing to David Shapiro. He reminds me a lot of Peter Attia in how well he articulates his thoughts and arrives at very realistic conclusions rather than fighting unrealistic perfection all the time. It's a very human way of looking at the world.
2 of my fav channels having a crossover episode (I’m counting all 731 of Shapiro’s different channels as 1 for the purposes of this comment lmao)?! Hell yea 🔥🍿
Moloch is one of the systemic externalities of the present economic system.
finally! The neurospicy techologist philosopher gets to talk on Win-Win! :P
great talk!
Thanks, glad you liked it!
I never comment, but what you are doing is incredibly important. Don't worry so much about reach and views (easier said) but aim to really impact those watching already. Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come. Keep it coming. You should be proud.
Thank you ❤️
Extremists can find each other very easily because they are extreme. It is the nuanced people who need to take more time if they want to be in a group or community that is harmonious
Agreed on the multiple forms of abandonment giving rise to nihilism. Kudos to David for being a vanguard against it. I have a love/hate relationship with the cycle of generations (Saeculum) making Millenials the hero generation, but I must agree with David that it's abundantly clear that we're it. Would love to see a part 2 between you two in the future!
Aligning humanity, banishing Moloch is surprisingly simple if you accept the solution.
We must all agree on the shared goal of meeting EVERYONE'S fundamental emotional and physical needs unconditionally.
Refusal if this goal is idiological and due to lack of understanding of human nature and the definition of fundamental human needs. (That which lacking will lead to pathologies)
Meeting everyone's emotional needs could be a serious challenge, if not downright impossible, but we could do MUCH better.
Meeting everyone's physical needs is possible this very moment, but not under capitalism, which drives to remove most people's physical needs and concentrate them in the hands of the few.
The solution isn't socialism, as that's not really even a different system.
However, a RESOURCE BASED ECONOMY combined with the ethics that you mentioned would be worth a try
I went to meet Jacque Fresco. He was a huge inspiration to me. All I do is manifest what he and Peter Joseph inspired in me. I believe the effective way to bring about a transition to a world in which we all strive to meet everyone's fundamental emotional and physical needs voluntarily in a decentralized way is by raising awareness about this proper definition of fundamental human needs: that which lacking causes pathologies.
While working in raising awareness about this we can also foster altruism with altruistic networks that enable P2P mutual aid. All it takes is getting 100 people to join one (I'd recommend one but then my message will be considered spam and removed). We are kickstarting altruistic networks all over the world. It works and is the progress towards an RBE
Thank you! This is the way!
@@MattAngiono
What is "resource based economy" ?
How is it different from the current economy, which is all about allocating resources?
@@andrasbiro3007 the current economy has little to do with allocating resources effectively.
It's a system driven by profit, and real thing it allocated, capital.
It requires growth and debt to even function.
A resource based economy isn't driven by any of these psychotic statistics.
It's based on what is ACTUALLY NEEDED and where, rather than what is profitable.
It doesn't thrive off of scarcity, but instead tries to make sure there is abundance of the thing human beings need to live well.
It would also get away from the driving consumerism and needless consumption this economy requires
Love this channel and love you both but I gotta say, for my money, Moloch is not losing. Sadly. Very few people can see what you (we) see. And maybe I'm wrong, but THE EVENT appears to me to be imminent and unavoidable. All we can do now is pray, prepare and hope that THE EVENT is not too disastrous. Good luck everyone!
I love seeing the two of you in conversation. Appreciate you both so much. 🙌🏼
A fascinating conversation Liv.
David's ideas are very interesting, it seems that under the different narratives he explores, he has a very deep optimism about humanity.
I feel though that many of his ideas assume that humans have a common set of values, as if all humans are somehow in their quest for the same holy grail, but are interrupted and struggling through different paths and obstacles. I'm afraid that the world is so fragmented because people's (and the powers that be) holy grails are different, they have different goals and different values, therefore the solution to the state of the world right now might be more complicated than David suggests, if it even exist at all. Thanks for a very thought-provoking conversation.
Loved the conversation around humans and status motivation. Fascinating to think about my decisions under that pretense.
Looking forward to this.
Communication is the precursor for co-ordination and is the source of all of evolution.
The Moloch problem is essentially a co-ordination problem.
But it can't be solved until we develop a new form of communication.
Thank you for having David on! Such a great talk:)
So excited!
This will be on my birthday! I should probably listen after the doddering fools debate to keep from being too nihilistic & full of despair (will probably just watch in context of the rfk response stream otherwise ... Idiocracy was on!y funny because it wasn't real).
Anyway looking forward to, and the timing re other debate on this date is perfect!
happy birthday Jason!
This was a great discussion, thank you! I like that David mentioned Yuval Noah Hariri's Homo Deus. Ultimately, we as a society will need to realize that we define our meaning for our lives. Though I'm skeptical, when listening to both Liv and David over the last couple of months, some of the points that each have made, are win-winning me over
Delicious!! Love it. Very wholesome and fortifying. Thank you both for your great work! :) Def inspired, interested to participate and see how things pan out.
super excited
Regarding David's idea of just getting the well-formulated idea across to enough people will save the day. When I was a kid I used to think that one day the good people of the world would reach a critical mass and we would take over in a bloodless and welcomed revolution and all our values would change for the better over night. I've since come to the conclusion that 1. this assumes that we as a species move inexorably towards this more utopian perspective and 2. that this exact same process was followed by the bad faith actors of humanity and that they achieved critical mass centuries ago.
Great conversation.
Not sure I feel any better about the future, but I appreciate David's optimism.
Dave and Liv together! This is a great cross-over episode for me.
So glad you two found each other. Long time coming. Love you both.
You do a great job Liv...keep up the good work!
Excited for another episode 💯
An archetype could relate/ represent Win - Win is Athena Pallas, the strategic wisdom that helps the hero to find the way or ways to the journey. The Greeks viewed her as a fighter equal to Ares (roman Mars, war and aggression). Ask Athena to fight Moloch!! keep in mind the heroic life is the conscious evolution, to consciously evolve means you are a Hero. much appreciation!
The saying “we see the world not as it is but as we are” kept coming to mind. I’m a fan of David’s videos but there’s often this caveat
The goddess of everything else
SOOO GOOOOOOD OMAY GADDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Recognizing narrative structure and our ability to construct new narratives is essentially the heart of post modernism.
This doesn't solve our issues.
What we need is the correct new narratives that can get us out of this insane system.
Jonathan Rowson refers to this as Meta modernism.
Still listening, but just wanted to point out that this alone isn't enough, as all the post modernists discovered decades ago
I'm a nihilist. It's fine. I much prefer it to when I was a Christian.
David is great👍
This is fantastic. I have been in an existential rut and these frames are very refreshing. I am excited to dig deeper into some of the ideas posed in this conversation.
Liv, that 80s anime music you are using rocks hard.
You are my favorite algorithm.❤
Wonderful interview. Very happy you both spoke with each other.
Finding a way to influence perspectives and shift the narrative could be really fun. Infinite games can also be collaborative (/non-win-lose). What would any examples be?
Excited to get more traction in our efforts to shift the self-limiting narratives of the last 4k years. What are the next steps? What's missing from our toolbox? (Genuinely curious of collective insights)
First, thank you for the awesome conversation. Two of my favorite TY creators talking about my favorite subjects. This vid was too short. I could have listened for hours.❤
Second, as Neil Degrass Tyson pointed out if Thanos can kill off half the beings in the universe, why can't he just double the size of the universe? Instead of committing mass murder?
Also, there are effectively infinite planets in the universe, and because there are so many planets, the idea of being able to fill them all up is ridiculous. Snap your fingers and make them all habitable. Not to mention, if you have the technology for interstellar travel, you can build habitable environments in space and never fill up the universe before it dies. The people made that decaying skull into a habitat.
It is literally impossible to overpopulate the universe.
Thanos' narrative was blinding him to the absolute truth about the amount of space in the universe. And seriously rabbits, dude, rabbits. You can't stop beings from multiplying. It's what we do. You could even argue that it's why we exist. Sorry for the rant, but that plot device always irritated me. 😅
haha yup there were so many basic flaws in that plotline! A good story needs a realistic supervillian
I feel like my brain has been waiting to hear some of the ideas you two exchanged in this one. Thanks Liv, thanks David.
Excellente découverte MERCI ! Je passe le mot!
Pretty hard to change the narratives though. They have a kind of viral quality in terms of their success that is hard to predict from the outset, and is likely to be heavily skewed towards various memetic tribes rather than a broader swath of the population. Schmachtenberger is a good example of finding the pocket among some group of people, but I'm not sure how transformative a perspective that complex is. I have no idea how to live in accordance with his perspective, and I can't imagine how society would function meaningfully in his paradigm
I'm also not certain about the convergence idea there. People have been talking about solutions forever and trying to converge on whatever it is that is the end point of all of this thinking, but ultimately it seems as though we're just in a landscape of tradeoffs and differences of opinion that cannot be resolved, and unless we create a technology like money which is a narrative as well as a fairly universal coordination mechanism, then we won't actually meaningfully shift things.
Like, I'm jazzed about these ideas and this loose network online, but I know very few people who share a similar disposition and values stack. I can't coordinate with other people around these ideas because they sound like esoteric nonsense to them. At least with money it is obvious what to do with it to everyone even if there's entire intellectual disciplines built around how to relate to it more effectively.
I'd like to be more optimistic about what I hear with all these conversations, but I often feel that at the end of the day I'm just a consumer of a genre of idealistic content rather than a person meaningfully engaged in a shift towards a better world. The cash value in my actual life is years of heavy depression and a further disconnect from people because I find it harder to relate to people when no one cares about the same things as I do. And of course it is my fault that this is my relationship to this stuff because I should just try harder or some bullshit like that.
Perfect.
Already subscribe to you both so this was an absolute joy to watch
Starting right off at the beginning, the two of them don't agree on what the symbolism of Moloch is supposed to represent.
a shorter definition of nihilism is the conjecture that there is no meaning *of* existence.
you can also claim that there's no meaning *in* existence, but that's less plausible than existence as the sole singular reality having a meaning. that just doesn't seem to make sense, unlike meaning in life.
nihilism in academic philosophy is often used to just negate the existence of some existent. someone can conjecture that stance-independent facts about what's delicious exist. a gustatory nihilist would say "no".
Printing press to Nietzsche straight line is an interesting observation. Not sure if he’s borrowing this from somebody, but it’s apt. In the same breath he mentions replacing that erstwhile religious cosmic relationship with something else. Why the need to replace it though?
I really struggle with your comment that tech people suffer for having to witness homelessness and drug abuse on their way to work. I live in san francisco and am in tech, and I think it's incredibly important for poeple to see what unintended consequences of elitism are. It was scientists who spent careers creating drugs to 'help cancer patients treat pain' that created the opioid crisis. These people should be reminded every day of their own potential to cause great harm in the culture. I don't know if they make the connection to themselves, but the connection exists none the less.
I agree so hard!
38:20 people "abusing" this system to do nothing are victims of some kind of emotional abandonment.
Healthy people dont choose to not do anything all day.
I would like to give Alex Jones an "honorable mention" for bringing the Molloch meme into the public consciousness.
42:35 - so, in a round about way, what you’re saying is: “games, unlimited games… …but no more games” 🙂
Yeah, when I was learning about gamification/motivational reasoning “serious games” was a big thing - choice architecture and systems thinking can lead to more intentional behaviour, more aligned with personal (or societal) values.
Cancer is a property of multicellular systems. The applicability of the metaphor here to the internet is questionable at best.
doesn't the internet only exist as a coalition of many many computers? each one a cell, perhaps? :P
Abstraction is the way to distill complexity into simplicity. What is the abstract narrative to take humanity forwards respecting our evolutionary biology and diversity ?
BTW, perhaps Socrates would enjoy this episode 😉
I agree with a lot of the explanations of what the problem is, but doubling down on more self definitely is counterproductive to any kind of tribe life I'm just more of the problems that we already have.
It's 'Self' in Jungian sense. Not in the egotistical sense.
Hi David! All together now! 🙂
(me at the gym) "Hey, we're a family!"
LMFAO WHAT??? 😭😭
"Your video making ideas are great, and the content you upload to your channel is great. I really enjoy watching your videos and appreciate your efforts. Thank you for sharing such great content!" When will you upload new videos?
Brilliant stuff.
Moloch is entropy. The entropy of an isolated system always increases. To escape Moloch (for now) we need to escape the zero-sum game of the isolated system comprised of the Earth/Sun energy system. This is why Elon's SpaceX mission supersedes everything.
are you sure this solve the problem or it is just an escape and derogation of an actual evolution taking place on Earth? to my view humanity cannot learn how to stop zero sum games just by going to Mars at this point, it will be an involution of human, as David Shapiro would say it would be one more "abandonment actually adding to Nihilism".
nihilism wrt meaning is an extremely plausible conjecture. we can't even agree what "meaning" is, or whether it is in fact a singular existent in life or whether there's just no fact of the matter about such questions, as different people just use words differently without fixed definitions.
to guess that there is no meaning of existence seems quite plausible. if one thinks that there is a meaning of existence, feel free to explain what it is and how you access that knowledge. otherwise, it's just more plausible that it's a nonsense concept made up to cope with the unknown.
Don't dismiss what they knew back then when it was only alchemy. I think it had a lot to do with essences of elements and such. Not just failing at trying to turn lead into gold.
Moloch, that she keeps going on about, is a bit of a one-dimensional way to describe the human condition. But I still think everyone should at least listen to her once. I did. She's right. As much as I think that the world would be a better place with more women in power, I feel that we suffer a lot more from FOMO than men. I need my stuff / money / respect / admiration/ beauty even if, when lots of people have the same ambition, it certainly destroys all of us. And when that happens, it is not my problem, but everybody's problem, not my responsibility to prevent it.
Hmmm… Shapiro’s argument regarding depathologizing pathologies seems incredibly specious and dangerous.
He was like: "And by the way sexuality, shouldn't be brushed under the rug"
She: "OK, let's change the subject"
So good
We need this positivity to spread it's wing.
So what am I welcoming back.?
Can cosmic abandonment be replaced by the superpower of coordinating to narrative? Also, I see moloch as in another way by not playing the social status game as a form of self abandonment, it appears in some nihilist meme are spreading the Gen-z's.
31:43 this is me within gen Z, thanks David:,)
Insightful stuff
When they talk about "changing narratives", they're talking about the fact that you need to be intentionally brainwashed by preconceived stories which serve stability.
Imagine AI evolves and develops into a human like trait ….. that power will steer humanity into a hellish reality of biblical proportions.
Bump for the algorithm
Practically politics shouldn't be forcing people to connect with nature and humbug. The government shouldn't be an emotional policeman.
Thanos makes more sense if you think about the time stone really means halving the population of past present and future populations at all time
Enjoyed this. But towards the end I was surprised to realize he’s pretty woke. I wonder if he’s evolved since this was released?
As the parent of 4 GenZ and the grandparent of two GenAlpha, I thank you Millenials, but as Doc said to Marty, "It's not you! It's your kids!" Please keep them from being over consumptive Moloch-driven Yuppies, keep the music and hippie vibe.
I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE these pods, however, I will offer that the purple horn chairs kindof make ya'll resonate like demons, to me. Probably not the effect desired.
We need a new mythology, but it'll be turmoil for a while in between.
Why would we want to try to replace religion? Oh yes, it’s difficult. As GK Chesterton once quipped, Christianity hasn’t been tried and found wanting. It’s been tried and found difficult
zombie concepts and magic uncritically mentioned in this episode:
-limbic/reptilian system
(myth, neuroscientists debunked this decades ago; limbic system is only meaningful in an anatomical sense, not a functional one as in the triune brain theory).
-egregore
(doesn't exist),
-faith
(perhaps do less faith, more critical thinking instead of surface-engagement with lofty concepts, like the meaning crisis via just saying stuff and gesturing at ideas).
Please do an episode with Audrey Tang🙏
yes Audrey would be a dream guest
''Nihilism has become all too popular''. Dying of cringe reading and listening to this
I have to disagree, nihilism can be a great tool for defeating depression, low self esteem and acceptance. I think there is a lot of misunderstanding how to use nihilism. When you understand there is no meaning to your mental suffering, that is liberating!
Nothing means anything and we’re all gonna die ❤
Cool, I do believe I facilitated this podcast. You're welcome everyone.
If so, Must appreciated 🫱🏼🫲🏾
Thanks. 😊
Anyone who uses spoon theory is just waiting for the wolves.
Thanos is so not Moloch.
go on...?
@@LivBoeree Thanos was a single purpose entity; moloch is a phenomenon that continues and entrains all other phenomena into the maelstrom. Inevitability is one aspect of moloch, but there's anothere important thing, that it persists and entrains all into it.
I should have written, "the concept of moloch is a phenomenon..." because without that it suggests I think moloch exists and is real and dooms us all, which I don't, mostly. It's an attractor.
Thanos was fundamentally driven by competition, and his view was to solve competition with violence. That's an expression of Moloch.
@@DaveShap Given your terms, I agree. I think of Moloch as a process or egregore that drives everyone to a worst-case outcome regardless of their better intentions. I don't see Thanos as that, but I can see Thanos as a part of the process.
The audio is out of sync for me
Alchemy didn’t give rise to modern science. Albertus Magnus and William of Occam et al were not alchemists
Based
"Hi! Liv. Fabulous podcast. 👏😊✌️🤟🖖😜👍 One thing. A documentary by 'Michael Moore,' comes to the forefront of my mind. May I? Suggest. That one. Review & watch. 'Mr. Moore's.' #movie titled #Capitolism It's very interesting & disturbing. 'Moore,' changed his thinking & discovered many key points 👉 of #truth 'Mainly we're all doomed without humane #Capitolist. There wouldn't be any funding or the positives in our worlds that we have today.' 😎🤘👍🌟 'Preservation Earth.' Your guest & you should also read 'The Hero with a 1000 Faces.' Another #JosephCampbell book. I'm really pleased with your creative, successful #podcast channel. Congrats! Good show!";) 😊
Will you please interview Elon?
The universe and each human being that exists have no transcendental meaning and their existence does not point to any specific objective.
One would assume that this would lead to a radically nihilistic stance, but that is not the case.
Every apparent nihilist has his own desires and objectives.
A radical nihilist does not exist. The very fact of proclaiming that condition contradicts the condition itself.
The answer lies in human nature and what are the factors that result in human motivation. :)
It’s impossible to solve nihilism/despair without accepting that Christ is the saviour and at the centre of the grand narrative of existence.
Everything else is insufficient for a reason and was always destined to be.
✝️👑
That's not true, even just by simple observation.
There are plenty of happy people who don't believe such delusions.
Yes, religion is a delusion.
You aren't living in reality.
That's fine, if that's what you want.
But believing in a fantasy isn't really a great solution for depression
@@MattAngiono religion is a major cause of mental illness.
@@MattAngiono Happiness isn’t an indicator of a successful mode of living.
The players talked about in Game A that are ruining everything for every are SUPER happy, but their actions and outlook are detrimental to humanity.
Also, do you believe something came from nothing and order came from chaos? Yet my belief in an intelligent designer is delusional? 🤔
How is believing that nothing matters because apparently we are all just carbon based organisms with no free will that are just here by sheer coincidence therefore we have no inherent value in an unfeeling universe HELP people? 🤨
@@AyoOdimayo first, your claim was that someone can't escape nihilism or depression without Christ, which is why I pointed towards happy people who don't believe in such things.
I didn't say happiness is the only measure of a life well lived.
Happiness is just one feeling, but generally speaking, someone who feels happiness at least somewhat regularly isn't depressed or nihilistic.
There are other important things about life beyond being happy.
Feeling fulfilled or even content is a better way to look for a well lived life.
Everything is relative in the end, so being happy is just part of it.
Meaning comes from a lot of places, but mostly that's subjective.
Human beings, as malleable as we are, craft our own meaning.
Having kids and raising them is enough meaning for most people.
For others, it's making something, anything, that benefits people.
Maybe art, maybe technology, maybe a house, maybe a home cooked dinner.
I don't personally believe in anything with certainty.
Not a god, not a big bang, not a boogie man, or a tooth fairy or a man in red to being me stuff for being a good boy.
I don't believe in the impossibility of things either.
But I am willing to "believe" in the likelihood of things.
The likelihood that there's a man-like being who created this universe "intelligently" seems absurd to me.
Just as much as everything coming from nothing.
Those are both absurd ideas that don't hold enough evidence to make me think otherwise.
And there's A LOT of evidence on the big bang side...
But I don't find it as a viable description as a "beginning" of the universe.
I do think something similar is likely, but not that it was a literal switch from nothing to everything.
I don't believe that there was ever a beginning.
And therefor, there can't be a creator.
Also, if there was a creator, you have to ask, who created the creator?
Who's the god of God?
"It's turtles all the way down"
@@MattAngiono
“Everything is relative in the end”
Once again this moral relativism you cling to is a nihilist position.
If someone asked you in a public forum whether you believed the Zodiac Killer or BTK certainly did bad things, you wouldn’t say “I don’t know it’s all relative in the end.”
So again, how does one lift themselves out a depressed/nihilistic state with the erroneous belief that “everything is relative” and mutable?
We can “craft our own meaning” sure but on a long enough time frame it will inevitably lead to its logical conclusion - despair.
Having kids and raising them can bring meaning but, by your logic, most likely subjecting them to the potential of a painful and unpleasant existence would actually be doing them net harm, so what reason would an atheist have to have them?
Art, technology and dinner cannot supplant objective meaning. We will all find this out when everyone has to be on UBI and has all the “free time” they’ve wanted. There’s no “maybe” about it.
You say you “don’t believe anything with certainty”, yet if someone did heinous acts to someone you loved and you were the only witness, would you be certain that they did an objectively bad thing and thus report them to the authorities?
Or would you sit there and ponder over whether it was objectively bad or merely an action that took place that was an inconvenience to your loved ones?
God is not “man-like” in any way, he doesn’t resemble or can be compared to anything in Creation.
The only option you have to believe in the coincidental creatio ex materia narrative.
God is uncreated. There is no question of “Who created God?” when we’re dealing with an uncreated being.
If anyone just sat down for an hour on UA-cam and purposely looked for all of the evidence for Jesus on all of the channels that they suppress, it would take much less time for them to see that he is without doubt the truth of all things.
He who will not return to the truth must follow error to its end.
✝️👑
It's not De-pathologize, it's re-pathologize, and meaning is derived from Initiative without incentive, OOPs forgot it's Youboob, BTW in that chair Liv you should be hosting bad shlock-horror binge from the 70's in some sort of Lingerie., OOPs again "UA-cam"...
Ben Shapiro next
There will never be a "post"nihilism. Once people emerge from the ignorance of telling themselves that God is dead and realize the nature of Source, they will attempt to slay Such in like a Return of the Jedi Abraham Abimelech moment. It's as dumb of a coinage as "post"modern or "post"renaissance although I sort of get what he's sayin'.