FULL ENGLAND DEPTH CHART! Spoiler…It’s shallower than you may think...
Вставка
- Опубліковано 28 бер 2024
- Post 6 Nations 2024 FULL ENGLAND DEPTH CHART! Spoiler…It’s shallower than you may think...
-----------------------
Rugby artwork in background courtesy of Blair Skivington www.etsy.com/uk/shop/BlrArtGB - Спорт
V harsh on Steward. Five months ago he was ‘Level 1’ in global terms rather than simply England.
I love Theo Dan, but if he's level 1, then so are:
Mitchell
Martin
Smith
Lawrence
Martin tier 1 (partly for his performance v SA in the World Cup semi final). Bone-crunching tackler.
Radwan and Cokanasiga are only “potential” for now. They really haven’t proven anything at international level.
Your too harsh on Cowan-Dickie. Never let England down. You should include category missing out cos gone abroad. Not enough depth to ignore these players.
Think the main takeaway is that Eddie Jones was just not good enough at properly trialing new blood which leaves at lot of question marks over depth making borthwick gamble
Loosehead VRRuskin is at least a 3- been injured but great around the pitch- turnovers, carries, scrum and maul great. Shame about tighthead (Synk is off to France)but 3 more years to get one or 2 up to high level. No scrum no win (ask Wales), summer will be fun.
Not sure how on earth Radwan and Cokanasiga are above Daly or even Malins... Daly might not have the top-end pace of what we're looking for in a winger but he's been a Lion and been selected by both EJ and Borthwick... something both Radwan and big Joe have failed to do (aside from the odd flash of brilliance against a tier 2 nation.) Agreed that there are no clear, consistent wingers for England at the moment because we're sorting of changing generations at this point... but Daly at least should be in section 2 with Freeman and Feyi-Waboso... below with the most potential for me would be Murley, Roebuck and... obviously... Arundell.
I’m so sure England are going to be barnstorming in a year or two and, as a Welsh fan, that’s terrifying. The prem is fantastic to watch at the moment and another year or so to bring some more young players some experience and they will be unbelievable as a team in my opinion
I hope you are right. I'm always hopeful
We’re still a team in transition. The important thing for fans is we’ve seen lots of glimmers of hope. Some of these level 2 and level 3 guys could be elite by the World Cup. I’m personally optimistic about our future since the Six Nations.
Good concept. I think harsh on Roots who won MOTM on international debut, for me that's "Top level indications"
I really hope the likes of Barberry, Mercer and Cokonasinga get a chance in the Summer internationals.
Let's hope that when Tim from Eggchasers goes to SA he finds some props with English grannies.
You need to look at Gloucester young guns, Seb Blake at hooker, Arthur Clarke at lock, Jack Clement back row, Caolan Englefield scrum half and Josh Hathaway on the wing, all level 4, also Afolabi Fasogban a 19yo prop.
Obviously you could put one or two of these players up or down a level - but broadly I ageee we need to see more stepping up. The tests we have scheduled are against the best teams and that’s exciting as England want to go forward and beat the best not just play teams below for no leaning. I just hope we also are prepared to rotate squad enough to learn about the future.
For the summer tour of NZ I’d like to see:
Baxter, George, Painter,
Itoje, Martin,
T Hill, Barbeary, Earl
Mitchell, F Smith,
Hartley, Freeman,
Roebuck, Hodge, Feyi-Waboso
Bench: Rapava-Ruskin, Dan, Davison, Chessum, Pearson, Quirke, M Smith, Steward
Further pecking options per position:
1. Genge/Marler/Rodd/Obano/Brantington/Elrington/West/Haffer/Theobold-Thomas/Woolmore
2. Langdon/Cowan-Dickie/Blamire/Frost/ McGuigan/Vanes/Dunn/Wright/Walker/ Singleton/Thacker/Riley/Capon/Blake/Oghre/Isaacs
3. Cole/Heyes/Stuart/Opoku-Fordjour/Harper/Haliwell/Schonert/ Balmain/Brooke/Sinkler/Collier/Iosefa-Scott/ Sela
4/5. Coles/Ribbans/Launchbury/L Chessum/ Bamber/Tizard/ Tuima/J Hill/Ewels/Kpoku/A Clarke/Moon/Groves/Caulified/Robinson/Iseikwe/Green/Rogerson/Sodeke/Bailey
6. Roots/Cunningham-South/B.Curry/Ludlum/Carnduff/Kenningham/Ludlow/Ackerman/Richards/Donnell/Jeffries
7. T Curry/Underhill/JWillis/Evans/Pepper/Pollock/Dugdale/Hinckley/Capstick
8.T Willis/ Mercer/ Dombrandt/Clement/Harding/ Bradbury/Chick/ Simmonds/Fisalau/Michelow
9. Randall/ Spencer/Van Portvelit/Warr/ McParland/Bracken/ Englefield
10. Farrell/ Ford /Atkinson/Bailey/ Barton/J Grayson/Simmonds/Skinner/Shillcock/Makepeace-Cubit
12. S Atkinson/Lichfield/Dingwall/Kelly/S Bedlow/ Devoto /J Bedlow/Anyanwu/Ojomah/Woodward/ Kerr
13. Lawrence/Slade/Marchant/Beard/Joseph/ Northmore/Porter/Spink/Lozowski/S James/ Doherty/Bates/Seabrook/O’Conor/Wimbush/ Maasi-White/ Waghorn
11/14. Arundel/Murley/Hassel-Collins/Muir/Sleightholme/Daly/Watson/ Hathaway/Thorley/Radwan/Ramm/Ibitoye/Cousins/Redshaw/Wills
15. Furbank/Hendy/Malins/De Glanville/Carpenter/Loader/Harris/Jones
Would love to see this video for the other nations! E.g., Scotland probaby has some very good backrow depth but at TH...not so much
I would love to see you do one of these for Wales. With the caps v playing abroad possibly a quiz show style "look what you could have had" including those not seen as eligible due to the caps rule.
Val Rapava-Ruskin?
Freddie Steward is a level higher than Furbank. If you were playing the All Blacks on a filthy night in Dunedin you'd want Freddie at the back.
There's not much depth at level 1 and 2 cos England have been holding on to players like Youngs, Cole, Marler, Daly and Care for too long. Personally, I wouldn't mind if Borthwick did a Gatland this past Six Nations by being really transparent and blooding new players. I don't mind England taking a hit now if it means we get the likes of Opoku-Fourdjour and Tuima in.
Agree with the levels, maybe not all of the choices.
Good video, would be great to do this every year to see how Borthwick is progressing things in this department 👍🏼
Can you do a Scotland one too as it would be interesting to see how we're looking in terms of depth 😛😀?
Harsh on Steward. Definitely need new props Could have a category with those who are playing abroad
Would be interesting to have a depth chart of players playing abroad 👍🏻
Rich, good assessment more or less agree with you.But who is coaching, training and bringing or pushing the cat 4 players.Seems to be up to themselves to have the fire in the belly to be the best in their position. Surely they need elite training schools throughout the year !
The easiest way to decide who is at level 1 is to choose a Lions squad and who would get in. The answer is
Earl
Martin
Mitchel
Smith
Lawrence
Feyi
Unfair on Marler and Domdranbt to high.
9 in lvl 1 and was it 13 in lvl 2? That's enough of a solid base to compete and as you say hopefully a few lvl 4s cone through.
I'd have a fit Cowan-Dickie at level 1.
Not a bad a assessment of the current state of things. I guess what you have to bare in mind is the place that the team is in. New world cup cicle, somewhat in transition, a fair few guys are retiring or moving overseas so will open up space for some of thse potentials to come through. i dont see it as a problem that the depth isnt quite there at the moment, when you take all that into consideration.
Do we know what Tyrone Greens international future looks like? We look better with a full back who joins the line. And I think Green has been a better finisher than Furbank for a few years. Furbank can cover 10, but Green for me could be our starting 15 as he’s strong under high ball and dangerous in attack. Could easily also play 14 with his pace. Better than Lynagh, who I would have liked capped. If the Boks don’t want him, I think we need to snap him up asap as someone who covers all the back three.
Great vid! As a Sale fan, I agree with putting Ben Curry at level 3 although I do believe he is good enough to get to the level of his brother.
Also, I would’ve stuck Joe Carpenter at Level 4 for the FB section as he seems to have the high ball ability of Steward and the speed and guile of Furbank. His biggest weakness at the minute is his decision making. He’s gotten caught a few times trying to counter attack when he should’ve been kicking instead.
Yea I nearly put Carpenter on the list, but as you say his performances ATM don't quite put him in the 'picture'
Could you please do more depth chart videos on other countries, eg SA. Very interesting video to watch
Setting aside the level three picks, many of whom I would dispute as they are actually starters, I feel like the conclusion here is actually that there is lots of depth but not a lot of proven quality in the England set up at the moment. And only a couple of positions where the depth is potentially lacking. Is that fair?
Yes that is a good summary of my point
I think Ben Spencer and Freddie Steward have been hard done by here
Radwan at level 2 is a big call.
Yep, not many class starters; and the situation will stay the same until ‘Borethwick’ gives some of the potential a chance. The first two games of the 6 nations were perfect opportunities, but he opted for respectability - in fear of more bad press. Why, oh why, did we persist with Daly throughout the tournament? Was he ever going to be a revalation and show something he hasn’t in the last 3 years? Again, another wasted opportunity; there are more examples. I would put money on him taking Cole, Marler and Stuart to NZ this summer - respectability is his goal, not development.
Gatland’s hand was forced this year, but I would argue that Wales are now in a stronger position than England because they, at least, know who will/won’t make the grade.
I think you are right to be strict with your grades. There is no point being too optimistic. You have to be realistic. It's always been a physical game, but it's getting even more physical, especially with the supersizing that is happening..... I'm talking about you France. We still have those problem areas, tight head and center. Other areas that are a little thin. How is Cassius Cleaves doing? He looked promising a while ago.
Thanks for doing this analysis. I thought you would just select the 1,2, & 3 for each position but I really like the approach you have taken...I generally agree with you assignments...as always we can quibble on some....but I think the main message is that SB has a lot of work to build a really robust squad with proven quality and competition for every position a la Ireland, France, SA, NZ...thanks again
No mention of Dan Kelly at Centre? He's been talked up for ages but keeps getting injured
Yea he could get back in the picture.
Mostly agree, but I’m 80% sure that a lot of these younger players freeman etc are going to be world class in 2 years time and we will have a world beating 15 and a strong bench. However, props still looks like a big issue and borthwick needs to make finding and training replacements a big priority
Genge level 1 and Marler level 3 !
Not many who saw the world cup semi final would agree with this.
An interesting and informative way to analyse the top level players who have been involved in England teams and squads. Kyle Sinckler probably shouldn't feature because, like Manu Tuilagi, he will be playing in France next season and ineligible for the England international team. I think you were harsh on Steward (who was probably category 1 earlier this season) and Martin, who has impressed me as much as Itoje recently. In terms of the backs, I don't think there's enough to classify Cokanasiga and Radwan as more than 'potential' because they haven't played enough minutes of international rugby to say whether they are proven or not. Also, if Tommy Freeman can feature in more than one category, I would put Elliot Daly in category 3 fullback as well as wing because of how he played last weekend for Saracens.
What's happened to lock Hugh Tizard?! Looked like a world beater @Quins but seems to have regressed since moving to Sarries which is clearly the opposite of what was expected!
Watched him in the sarries v quins game and he is a solid lump but I think lacking top end athletic ability
Very interesting. The immediate thought is how England's depth chart compares with the rest of the top nations: South Africa, Ireland, New Zealand, France and Scotland. I have no idea really, although purely on observation only Scotland would appear to have a shallower pool.
Lost me at Theo Dan being a 1.
Compared to the South Africans and the French, we do lack depth, I agree. Tighthead and inside centre are the thinnest areas. Nevertheless I think England are in a better place now than a few years ago, and I hope they continue their attacking style, though maybe best to resort to WC tactics against SA!
Definitely should have a look at Thacker at Hooker. He’s looked world class at Orem level but never tested, which is a shame. BEN Curry is a bit of a shame really, hasn’t been given the training/experience at the top level. Genetically identical to another top level player so why not put him through the same development programme? It’s mad to me that people expect him to perform the same as Tom, to presume that would discredit any development gained from training camps, test matches, world cups etc! Loved this video mate, thanks!
Your reasoning behind putting Slade at number 1 isn't consistent with putting Daly at level 3, Daly HAS done it for England many times, mainly during Jones' era, at world class level. Don't feel like you can put Slade as 1 and not Daly as they're probably similar in terms of ability now
Luv ya work mate! Maybe, putting ages in brackets ,would help? Would love to see you pick an under 25’s team! Looking pretty bloody good , I reckon, in comparison to years gone bye.
The depth could be enhanced with a proper A team competition. The Portugal game was a bit of a non event given the quality of opposition. Exposure to international competition is the only way to find out who has it and who doesnt. Also some players need to be given more time for those that improve more slowly. Not an easy task improving the top player pool.
Tottally Agree 👍🏽 🌹 RFU is a Disgrace !!! We had more depth 30 Years Ago !! SHAMEFUL when compared with other Sporting Unions 😢 - CYCLING/BOXING/FOOTBALL !!!
You can have great Proven players./ talent, what worries me if they get a chance. There’s a ton of players who have Deserved a squad call up but never /rarely do.
I feel it’s a bit too harsh on the whole and also a little inconsistent. For example Dan being level 1 but Chesum & Martin level 2. Think the likes of Steward, Smith, Mitchell, Lawrence and Dickie, could all be higher. But of course just my opinion. To be honest I think it would have been better to grade it as:
Level 1 - top class starters
Level 2 - good/very good squad players
Level 3 - future potential
Level 4 - time to move on
But as always thanks for the time & effort you put in to make a thought provoking video
Good going
thanks❗️
👊🔥
🪖
Very harsh on Randall,don't get me wrong not sure he's big enough for international rugby,but when he's played he's played a million times better the JVP, either both are level 2 or level 3,again with Mitchell,think Raffi quirke is the one if stays injury free.
Sleightholme on the wing. Cat 4
I'm starting to think that way actually especially after this weekend
Numbers do mean depth, but not numbers alone. You still have to develop the tallent. Ireland has less depth but better development. New Zealand also lacks depth but has excellent tallent development
Caden Murley, level 3
I have never been impressed by Slade at test level. I honestly can't remember him ever standing out against the best teams.
Points on tighthead well made, but calling Dombrant a level 2 player is completely wrong. He’s proven to be the Hick of No. 8 options in England.
Isn't Opoku-Fojour a loosehead? Always see him in your tighthead list
He plays both and we need tightheads
Props are definitely a problem for England, maybe not as bad as Wales' problem in those position but not far away from the same depth of problem. Any reason why VRRuskin not included?
Second row is promising, there are a few good young players coming through. I suspect Ewels tine has come and gone. Tizard is another very good option with potential.
Back row, I think putting Dombrandt in level 2 is unduly generous. He has had plenty of chances at international level without ever putting in a performance that demand the jersey. At best he is level 3. However, there are plenty of exciting players to bring through in the back row
In the backs I am not too worried about scrum half, likewise at fly half although I would like to see Charlie Atkinson kick on over the next 6-12 months. As for centres there is plenty of talent, the issue is whether there are the right combinations available.
As for the wings it is time to drop big Joe from the list. He has had enough chances at international level and like Dombrandt has not taken them. He is an improved player even compared to last year but he is far to slow on the turn and as a consequence a defensive liability at international level. However, there is plenty of talent at wing so not a problem even if Watson does not come back from injury.
Bit harsh at full back on Steward. There are definitely aspects of his game he needs to improve, I am sure he knows what he needs to do. Level 2 at worst for me
Lawrence Chessum are cat 1
Zac winbrush is one to watch.
Before the six nations Ware was on a par with any on the list, still the best box kicker in the Gallagher and you lose nothing in and around the pitch - proper terrier like performances, Bedlow as a centre excellent in the tackle and good passer of the ball and an excluded Carpenter, cannot see any argument for that. Val R.R and McGuigan in the front row - again not sure why they would not feature in the discussion.
Fair pick but we need to use a few young players yes we may lose but learn from the mistakes
Excellent analysis
Lost another 2 players to France , kyle sinkler and Lewis ludlum,
When the hell will England start allowing overseas based players ...
no mention of jack willis again?! he's world class!!
He's not eligible
England A -
1. VPR
2. Seb Blake (his stats are nuts)
3. Heyes
4. Tuima
5. Coles
6. Ted Hill
7. Pearson
8. Mercer
9. Randall
10. Charlie Atkinson
11. Radwan
12. Seb Atkinson
13. Ojomoh
14. Murley
15. Hodge
All the doom and gloom, but the team I've just named is a strong England A.
Zack Wimbush may be another potential option for 12 in the future. 6ft 5 with pace, Cheifs fans seem to rate him.
Good info
On the whole good picks but it probably just shows favouritism to put Blamire, Cokanasiga & Radwan at 2 (barely any caps and certainly nothing standout) but then Marler, Steward and Daly at 3. Age maybe??
They clearly bring major experience, have the brains and their own skills that coaches know how to utilise.
I feel like you are sort of trying to combine potential, currently talent, personal preference AND depth all into one scoring system. And it's just a mess. For example, how are Steward, Cole, Marler & Daly all as worthy as Walker and LESS worthy than Blamire or Cokanasiga, in terms of current talent or potential??
Vv harsh on Steward. He has proven he is world class and probably the worlds best under the high ball.
Ollie sleighthome missing?
I think I mentioned him, but did I forget to put him on the list...my bad
Usually love your videos, but thin this one missed the mark. Not sure the categories criteria you choose worked for what you were trying to do and your ranking consistency across the positions was terrible.
I am pretty disappointed by a lot of this, not because I can in anyway disagree but looking objectively didn’t realise until you compartmentalise positions and players quite how severe this situation was, I do remain optimistic that there are strong players coming through U20s 6 nations best outcome we have seen for a while, whilst most wouldn’t make the step up winning it would indicate the chances of finding a few are greater. Could you do the same exercise for the top 5 or 6 teams so we can really see how we stack up when compared to other nations I think that will give some kind of bench mark, currently whilst this is very interesting and useful it only paints half the picture. Great job btw Rich I really like the formula you have created and think it’s very logical.
Thanks, yes I fall into the trap too of mistaking potential for depth, this video was more to graphically illustrate it for me
How can Blamire be level 2?
Yea, on reflection he's probably level 4 still
Cracking analysis - but Slade is never cat 1 - he’s never made an International break as far as i can recall Would love to see freeman in centre and Radwan and EFW or Muir outside.
I've said this for years every young english player is going to be world class according to the pundits and armchair fans, if you believe what the english media comes out with.ask yourselves how many english players would get into the bokke, blacks, Irish teams.
Totally agree it will be fantastic to see Marchant back. He goes straight in at 13 for me with Lawrence at 12. Slade may have done good things but I think his charging out of defence conceded tries in all 5 games, new system or not.
Daly deserves level 2 lol
Zach Mercer is already Level 1. You don’t win player of the year in France if you are not top class. This was a disappointingly shallow article.
I think reika maasi-white should’ve made this list, I’m just always thinking about the potential centre partnership of him and Hartley in the future could be our long term solution, bit like mennoncello and brex just big physicality
He's got it physically but makes a few too many mistakes ATM
I’ve never commented before but I have to say there is little logic behind this categorising of players. Sorry but much of it makes no sense. For example. As S Africa prove over and over again, props are there to principally scrummage, that’s their main job. Dan Cole and Joe Marler have proven over and over again they can scrummage against the best plus they can tackle and are key to maul and line out.
How can you say Tommy Freeman is probably a 13 when he’s hardly played there. And he had a great season on the wing. I could go on as there is contradiction after contradiction.
M smith, F smith, Ford is to slow, M smith , lions call up maybe F smith as well,, but not ford,, Farrell plays a fast attacking game,
No depth! Yet names about a million players,you only need,15 plus subs,hom may do Ireland and Scotland have in the wings,just look at Wales this six nations,you don't know who's good enough untill they play,that's the problem I still see with bothwick, can't see him play any other wingers, apart from Daly, freeman(who's a better centre then winger) and wadoso.
I really think that Dombrandt just needs to be written off. Absolute waste of time & space in my mind, just never performs. And looking at the players available, why do we need him. To be honest, Marcus Smith on 31 caps still isn’t not a great player internationally. I’d back Fin Smith as the 10 going forward
You need to get your head read if you think Dan cole was never top level
JVK is better than Alex everyday of the
week,
Steward has never put in a 1st class performance , even when he has been man of the match and picked in most lions teams last year.
Oh I just got it they are all tigers .
Slade is to slow & can't tackle, harsh but true, Daly's the same, much like steward & Furbank,,
Hi Rich,
So many points to argue differently, but it seems that - in stark contrast to your earlier years - you see no value in responding to either positive or alternative viewpoints- so there seems frankly little point in contributing.
Sad, but I guess these days you’re a busy fella.
Hello, I read every comment and respond to some depending on time. Nothing changed.
Ford's goal-kicking knocks him down to Level 2 imo!
Man seeing the Steward slander this whole 6 Nations is rough. All you ever hear is he's too slow, and I think he's probably been pigeon-holed as symbolic of that unattractive, box kicking, low risk style of rugby everyone hates, much like Ben Youngs caught the flak in his later years.
Steward was England Men's player of the year what, twice in a row? He was top try scorer for one of those years, has been damn near undroppable the entire time, and yet still someone will just point out he doesn't have wheels.
And all it will take is for Furbank, who I think's brilliant as well, to have a tough day at the office under the highball, and all you'll see is 'Get Steward back in' from the media & these types of videos.
Steward is the worlds best under the highball, can sniff his way to a line close range, has a good long range boot, and is good through contact, and has good soft hands. If we surround him with actual pace on his wings, like Murley or Feyi-Waboso, the balance is much better for a back 3, and it matters less about the fact that he isn't gonna win the sacred 100m sprint.
Love the channel. I love your opinion, but I'm sorry to say I don't really agree with 50 % of it.
No problem, that's 50% of the fun
Ellis Genge level 1??? Jeez he is not even in the top 10 loosehead props in the world. Not close to world class. If you can't scrum you arw not a level 1 prop sorry
Dombrant will never be a top level player he has a great rugby Brain and runs great lines But lacks AGGRESSION and PHYSICALITY rarely breaking tackles and poor carrying kick offs back from the 22 . His poor attempt at tackling van de Merwe, when he scored that wonder try, was just low level tackling skill just holding arms out at chest height .