1000V insulation tester (Ganz XS)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 4 січ 2024
- Exploring what's inside a high voltage insulation tester type XS made by Ganz probably between 1978 and 1981 (The potentiometer is from 1978, the baterries from 1981, but they might not be the first batteries in it). It uses 100V, 250V, 500V or 1000V to measure the insulation resistance in two MΩ ranges and 1.5V to measure in the kΩ range. All the transistors in it seem to be Germanium. It runs on 7 D cells.
Please support this channel on Patreon:
/ diodegonewild
My online calculator:
ohmslaw.eu
Instagram:
/ savage_danyk - Наука та технологія
![Customer States & Mechanical Fails [Part 39]](/img/n.gif)
The meter was indeed very sensitive and that's why it was held with such tiny wires in a near-frictionless position in the magnetic field; it merely had to twist the tiny wire to move. This was a fragile device where even minor drops might break it. Looking at the case damage, it's no wonder that the meter is broken. Too bad.
Yes, this is a taut-band movement. Very sensitive, frictionless, but very fragile.
No problems repairing it with 0.02mm steel wire if you have enough patience. In this case it's just a throwaway though.
On the Battery, "Gyártva 1981 5. hét" means "Produced: 1981 5th week" and "Ára 6,3Ft" means "Price 6.3 Hungarian Forint". Nowadays, that equals to roughly 0.02EUR.
Thanks for the insights into the workings of this old machine. Happy new year!
Back in the day forint was worth so much more I think.
Is that's a rechargeable battery?
Some additional translation/explanation:
- Perion (or Perion Akku) was the Hungarian communist monopoly for producing batteries (both car batteries and carbon-zinc)
- "Világítási telep" means Lighting battery (this R20/D cell size was most often used for torch lights)
- According to online calculators, 6.3 Ft was equivalent on purchasing parity with about 0.75 EUR today - but it is very difficult to compare the purchasing power of a communist currency with a western one.
I'm sure we've just witnessed those batteries leaving their compartment for the first time since Ganz installed them in the factory.
I came to make this exact comment but then I saw yours haha! Great details, good explanation. Nice.
Szép estét!:)
In the US, that type of meter mechanism was called “Taut-band suspension.” It was thought to eliminate the problems introduced by the friction introduced by jeweled bearings in high sensitivity meter movements. It largely did, but introduced its own set of problems, principally the fragile nature of the band. - which you have an example of in your device. That one looks like it “took one for the team,” so it’s no surprise that the meter is destroyed. The device on the bottom of the magnet, retained by a screw is a magnetic shunt, used to adjust the strength of the magnet.
indeed, Simpson and Triplett love taut-band movemens very much
100% correct. They were indeed very sensitive and suffered no hysteresis, but were too fragile in many cases.
The good old PERION batteries from Hungary. Bring back my childhood from the '90s.
Ára 6,30 Ft means it's price (6 forint 30 fillér - fillér was the change to Forint - 100f = 1Ft. Ft is the same as HUF)
Gyártva = Manufactured: 1981. 5th week
As I'm Hungarian I can help you.
"Világítási telep": battery for torch (as in the 1980s there were only incandescent lamps in use, they were almost the biggest among the common battery power consumers)
"Ára 6.30Ft +": Price is HUF 6,30. (In 1981 a ball of ice cream was HUF 1, a single tram ticket was also HUF 1, and a single bus ticket was HUF 1,50. So this battery was kinda expensive.)
"Gyártva 1981. 5. hét": manufactured in 1981, calendar week 5.
Now I'm continue watching your video. 🙂
Thanks ;). The set of 7 batteries then would cost 44 tram rides. Bloody expensive!
I wouldn't say it was a boring episode, it was cool to see how this thing (used to) work. Maybe you could design a microcontroller and op-amp based digital replacement meter movement
Those batteries are definitely not Alkaline. It's interesting to see the Warsaw Pact-era products where the prices were printed onto the labels and were the same everywhere you could find them, when you could find them ;).
Yes, they are simple carbon-zync batteries manufactured by Perion (the former Hungarian battery company).
Old zinc-carbon batteries didn't leak as often because the case was made from zinc amalgam. After the use of mercury was banned in batteries thay were made from pure zinc which is less resistant to corrosion. It is also thinner than old cases for cheaper production.
The earlier insulation testers made by Megger in England, used similar meters, with no return spring. In these needle could rest in any position when not in use. The later testers had a meter which included a return hair-spring.
Not too long ago I found a new-in-box Ganz 300Amp clamp meter which even had the test paper with it signed by the engineer.. 1981. :)
Hungarian Megger! The dry cells are probably as dry as they can, they won't get any drier let alone leak.
Pity to see the device's poor state; it's discombobulated beyond recombobulation. I really like the PCBs in it.
Even if you couldn't restore it, at least you tried to bring it up and showed how it works. For Science!
Nice neper level indicators. Interesting soldering gun mod too :).
I have a 50µA meter, nothing more sensitive here. There may be some kicking around on auction sites though, and I think galvanometers are even more sensitive.
The batteries still show 1.4V, but supply no more than about 0.3mA. The copper bar thread in these soldering guns tends to wear out over time, because bare copper loops don't last long, they have to be changed frequently. So I solder terminal blocks to them by heating them using a spot welder.
Old batteries didn't leak as often because the case was made from zinc amalgam. After the use of mercury was banned in batteries thay were made from pure zinc which is less resistant to corrosion. It is also thinner than old cases for cheaper production.
As allways very good. And I must say that you are very correct because you said: I am not complaining because it was donated. Lot are not like this, they want all new...
Thanks.
A certain 8 bit computer fan springs to mind there, I stopped following him when he started complaining about the free stuff he was given.
Bloody interesting one man. Far out that was a sensitive meter. I thought 50uA was low but 10!! Damn.
Considering that I have purchased Varta 4R25 batteries that were in date but had completely corroded out internally, for 40 year old zinc carbon cells to be intact is amazing.
Hi thanks for the video Diode!
Happy New Year to you too. We learned a lot.
Thanks for your support ;)
Markings on the battery:
Manufactured: 1981. 5. week
perion világítási telep is maybe some sort of brand name but I'm not sure about that (világítási telep means lighting pland if directly translated)
ára 6,30Ft is the price
Great episode, circuit analysis and troubleshooting. I have a couple 10uA meters, though much smaller. Sensitivity supports why they are noticeably heavy. Did the batteries have any activity left? Have seen a few uV or mV in similar oldies. For a diehard DIY long video project find a10uA meter, remount in a new case! Happy New Year.
Nothing boring about the video! I would however be very grateful if you tried to fix that insanely sensitive analog meter, that in itself would warrant a video in my humble view. Thanks for all you hard work and sharing it on UA-cam.
Happy New Year to you as well! Impressed by how sensitive that old meter must have been. Looks like it could fail just by looking at it funny.
It was dropped. Probably quite an impact, given how the plastic box is broken. The meter had no bearings, the moving part was hanging on just the string. Of course it broke...
Happy New Year ! and thank you and your cat for all the great ideas, inspiration and passion put in your videos 😊 to many more !
Nice reverse-engineering of the device!
Now, you could substitute the hyper-sensitive and broken meter with a high impedance buffer with a cmos opamp and drive a heavier meter or a digital display.
Exactly my thought. A literal single chip solution.
I think he found the schematic.
Those meters are crazy sensitive. The DP-5A and DP-5B soviet dosimeter devices contain such sensitive meters. Repairing them is a nightmare without the right tools. The band used in such meters are made from special alloys. Cross section of these wires are rectangular or "8" shaped to provide better, more uniform counterforce over movement angle. Soldering them is also problematic, since they need a low melting point solder. Usually old factories used cadmium based solder, so be careful...
Thanks DGW, and happy new year for you and your cat 😚☺🍺
Ďakujem za toto video, a vôbec nebolo nudné ako si na konci povedal 😀, kľudne môžu byť aj dlhšie takéto videá, kde sa človek aj niečo naučí. Je to pekný kúsok meracej techniky, len škoda, že je tak poškodený, najmä škoda toho meracieho systému, 5 alebo 10uA citlivosť na plnú výchylku to sa len tak nevidí. Bol by to pekný kúsok do zbierky keby nebol taký rozbitý, ale čo sa dá robiť, ako si na konci povedal, taký je proste život a nemôžeme mať všetko také ako by sme chceli.
Happy New year!
@12:09 - It's funny to hear the volume of your voice get lower because the piece is so delicate.
It was long, but not unnecessarily so and it definitely wasn't boring
I found it interesting. Thank you
As a 14 year old kid that has not been ruined by skibidi toilet and all the brainrot out there i can definetly say most of my electronics knowlage is from 3 years of this channel.
Do you have Discord?
@@matejgamingandotherstuff6484 yes?
@@cuf_ what's your username on Discord?
@@matejgamingandotherstuff6484 "cuf_"
Having had 9 years of college and 3 engineering degrees, channels like this are far more educational than college.
Nice video! But for the tube algorythm to kick in you got to have every video sanctioned by your cat!
Good to see another Hungarian instrument😊
Nice video thanks
Amazing stuff man. The self oscillating circuit there looks like a Royer oscillator. Never seen one with pnp transistors though. Someone wanted to do something in the other way around. I just can't believe this thing still runs.
In the Germanium era, most transistors were PNP. Germanium transistors in NPN version were quite unusual. That's also why devices from this era have a common positive.
@@DiodeGoneWild thank you!
Can we fix it? No but we'll learn a lot along the way. Thanks for a great video - it;s good not to have a Hollywood ending sometimes!
I believe in safety testing devices it is obligatory to have movement of the mete to indicate safe insulation.
Still an interesting meter. I was just about to ask, where is your cat, and there she was. Very cool, non-leaking Hungarian made batteries. Better quality then the Duraleaks we get today which are leaking very quickly and destroying equipment.
Mam taki sam multimetr. Mówię o tym z żółtej gumie. Niezniszczalna bestia. Mam go już kilka lat i jest całkiem niezły w porównaniu z nowymi. 😊
It's amazing how quickly people give up when they see a broken dial indicator. Even when repairing an iPhone or a spaceship, you need to keep in mind the following: somebody, somewhere, once assembled it with bare hands. Atkelar have decent video (612 tube tester) where he tacles this problem head on.
Another hungarian stuff, yeah! Maybe a bit less sophisticated, than the EMG signal generator :D
Battery says: világítási telep = battery for lighting. Second typical flashlights of those days used this cells. The most typical was the ones with the flat 4,5V cells, that totally disappeared nowadays. Ára 6,30 Ft+ = Price is 6.30 hungarian Forint. Prices in socialist Hungary were determined by the government (I think, this was also the case in Czechoslovakia), so the factory felt comfortable to print it on directly. Soviet stuff sometimes has the prices even in the plastic mold. I do not know, what is the + for, after the 6,30. Gyártva 1981.5.hét means it was produced on the 5th week of 1981.
If I remember correctly, in the 1980s the exchange rate of the forint against Kčs was about + - 30 halers per one forint. So the price after conversion comes out to around 2 Kčs. And here in the Czechoslovak Republic there was one large zinc-carbon monocell from the domestic production of Bateria Slaný 2.50 Kčs.
4.5 V batteries and krypton bulbs were demanded by my son's teacher just two years ago. I haven't used those since my childhood.
I have to wonder if the batteries are dead? Strange how Duracell manage to leak before the retail package is opened yet those ancient batteries have not. Batteries used to have warranties back when they did not leak, now that they leak, the companies just deleted the warranty.
The batteries are all 1.4V, but virtually no current (can only supply 0.1 to 0.6mA)
Fascinating tester. Shame the meter was destroyed. Would be great if you could adapt a less sensitive meter somehow. Happy New Year!
Those old cells are likely carbon-zinc, they don't leak so much. Alkaline leak copiously regardless of brand.
that's a nice project for new 3d printed case, since the meter is still ok
I thought the same. 3dprintergonewild channel when?
1:01 If you get a shock, you jump off and it turns off 🤣🤣🤣
I thought there was a hairspring visible somewhere, but you never kept the picture stable long enough for me to see clearly. But if it's only 5 uA full deflection perhaps you are right that it only needs a very weak restoring force such as one might get fronm twisting a wire.
It is interresting that they (I assume it was made in east europe) used German made Roderstein film caps (the big green ones) and also the germanium transistors seems made bei Siemens, Valvo or Telefunken, according to their type names in the schematic. Or Tungsram (or whoever made the transistors) used the same names at this time as in West Germany, I am not sure.
The beautiful technologic knowledge, the delicate devices this country could produce, pretty much all industry have been destroyed after the system switch.
Tell me another soviet block country that lost almost all it production capibalities on this scale and had impressive product and invention 8ne the recent centuries....!
Hungary wasn't in the ussr, just in the communist block. But anyway, most of the Europe has lost its ability to produce their electronivcs in the 1990s, starting to import everything from China. It made everything cheaper, but this massive reliance on such country is a bit unsettling.
It's fascinating to see how things used to be done in the old days, without some of the modern refinements we take for granted nowadays!
This sort of instrument probably would have been used more often in the field, in environments such as building sites and ships in dock, than in a laboratory; and yet they still had to use a super-sensitive (and fragile!) torsion-balance meter movement in it. Maybe the correct torsion wire was quite readily available in those days, so the meter could be repaired when it broke.
I suppose with a high voltage being available, they _could_ just about have got away with using a triode or pentode valve to amplify the current, and so used a less-sensitive "conventional" meter with hairsprings; but then that would have created a whole new set of problems of its own, because the meter would be out of proper calibration until the cathode was fully up to temperature, and it also would eat batteries even more quickly. And the glass tube is still fragile.
Yes, today with all the microcontrollers and Si transistors, engineers can be quite lazy when designing things. Back then it required more ingenuity. A very sensitive meter was still a more viable solution, as a tube would drift a lot over time. Single point callibration before every measurement would't still be enough, there's no guarantee of linearity.
That tester looks like it lived a very short life. Lost in time, like tears in the rain.
Yes, given it still has 1981 batteries in it, it was probably dropped almost new and then just stored in a broken condition for decades...
@@DiodeGoneWild it looks that way. Made it an interesting time capsule to explore though.
Ha, ha. You like Bladerunner, me too.
@@peckhamian the first Blade Runner movie is a banger. It blows my mind that we're 5 years past when that movie was set in. We're living in the future now! We were so optimistic in the past. Where's my Pris and flying car?
Thanks
Thank you for your support ;)
Super !
That's niiiiiIIIIIIIICE!
You could make a simple transconductance amplifier with an op amp. Then feed the amplified signal into some sort of uC with 7 segment display
The instrument has tortion springs. Should be easy to fix. If the remaining spring is too short you can use old hair spring wire from a watch.
I might try, but it's going to change the sensitivity anyway, and it will be quite a microsurgery...
Old batteries didn't leak as often because the case was made from zinc amalgam. After the use of mercury was banned in batteries thay were made from pure zinc which is less resistant to corrosion. It is also thinner than old cases for cheaper production.
Nice
the fine string is actually pure platinum!
Really? I'd think it's a very thin steel.
it is! i had one broken last week with full scale deflection 12.5 micro Amps. it is also made of pure platinum, any other metal cannot maintain strength and elasticity being of this tiny mass @@DiodeGoneWild
"Poor, hole-less, screw" LOL!! Good one!
I hear "homeless screw"
Can you show us how to make a simple insulation tester?
Hi Danyk. How emiters of power transistors T5 and T6 are connected to the circuit? There is only one wire connected to the middle tap B that goes to 10.5 Volt in the battery. And Happy New Year to you and your family.
Well, you're right. I didn't even notice. There's definitely a mistake in the schematic. The connection from the T5+T6 emitters to the the battery + (or maybe to the kiloohm/megaohm switch) is missing.
@@DiodeGoneWild Thank you for the reply.
Used commonly in electrical installations.
Happy new year too, sadly you cannot fix the meter 😢 still 👍👍👍
Maybe you could try making a small high-precision op-amp based amplifier and put in a big meter with a custom scale. Plus maybe 3D print a new case or mold it from some resin?
Perhalps a simple digital meter would be a quick solution because of avoiding a custom scale. Maybe running the amplified signal into a tiny controller if the scale is not linear.
@@tvelektron A digital meter doesn't look very good in such an old device. And it's possieble he'd have to make a small amplifier anyway. 10uA is quite low.
Bottom right of the meter there's three symbols, one looks like a V with 2.5 written above it - is that a measure of the full-scale deflection?
Восстанови подвес рамки, это достаточно просто сделать, нужны лишь прямые руки)
May found a 30uA meter (1.5/50K) and take pic / scale / (mirror) / transfer the background
pcb with strain reliefs for the wires !!
You can try put much lower resistances for R22, R23 and then use not so sensitive meter (from those you have)
It won't work. The current depends mostly on the resistance of the thing it's measuring. In the high Megaohm range (II.), reducing or deleting R22 and R23 would have no effect.
3:04 oh thank God he's not a leftie
Miss kitty looks like shes got glasses on.. just noticed that..
10:57 If the string is already broken, then you can take it apart and find out what is wrong. Why not repairable? Replacing the string should be an easy affair. It would also be very interesting to find out how this works - it looks like a solid meter so well worth giving it a shot. Even if you could find a meter of similar quality of construction, it would cost way too much.
Replace all capacitors by new ones, you do not have any Idea about the state of 40 year old components that could very well be defective, even if measuring quite normal. Under operation they could fail quite dramatical and you would never find that fault...
For the old batteries: not Duracell (but I dont like them too...), Varta is the biggest Shxt. Even 3 years before (!) expiration Date they are leaking. Warranty --> No! Explication: not possible! They are absolut shxt!
Duracell
Can you like, slow down a lil ? Had to play this vid @ 0.75 speed !
When the video gets boring you need to put more pictures of your cat there
Absolutely! Louis Rossmann got millions of subscribers not for his brain but his cats!
Duracell will not leak in 40...
...hours! 😂😂
Long, complicated, a bit confusing maybe but boring Never !!....cheers May your salt flow freely.
Hey @DiodeGoneWild
I wanted to know the best topology for smps for 12v 10 amp applications
It would be great if you could share your mail id for communication.
Thank you
I wish I had one of these!
especially for making my own capacitors
Sad that you couldnt fix it