KOTD - Head I.C.E. vs Cortez (Title Match) |

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  • Опубліковано 8 лют 2025
  • KOTD Rap Battle #WorldDom7 - Head I.C.E. vs Cortez (Title Match)
    Hosted by: Organik, Gully TK & Bishop Brigante
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  • Розваги

КОМЕНТАРІ • 2,9 тис.

  • @KingOfTheDot
    @KingOfTheDot  7 років тому +40

    THE CHAIN IS ON THE LINE!
    Check out our new #WDVII merchandise at KOTDSTORE.COM

    • @swaggzilla_3530
      @swaggzilla_3530 7 років тому +14

      King Of The Dot Entertainment robbery!

    • @jamestown910
      @jamestown910 7 років тому +16

      It was never on the line

    • @BlueEffigy
      @BlueEffigy 7 років тому +2

      ROBBERY, That chain can stay on the line, dope ppv thou, fuck the crowd

    • @thewintersoldier383
      @thewintersoldier383 7 років тому +10

      Y’all know that chain wasn’t on the line going no where!!!! Stop it

    • @generalspizzy4679
      @generalspizzy4679 7 років тому +5

      Seems like a winner was already decided before battled started. I'm sure a few people had a feeling the outcome would be something like this. I'm not surprised. Salute

  • @Welyn
    @Welyn 7 років тому +36

    wow crowd was asleep for this one

    • @Vegeta68041
      @Vegeta68041 6 років тому +1

      Yeah and off topic but why Quest mccody always look like someone pissed in his cereal that morning?

    • @dannyknighten2843
      @dannyknighten2843 4 роки тому

      Sad af smh

    • @gabrielmccrea7030
      @gabrielmccrea7030 3 роки тому

      Wow had no idea welyn was a battle fan.

    • @domainmusicandgaming
      @domainmusicandgaming 3 роки тому +1

      Yeah
      They were tired. Like 5 hours waiting for this

  • @Dirandownthestreet
    @Dirandownthestreet 7 років тому +31

    Yo. On some real shit, I'm not like a huge Cortez fan, but this man always getting some minimal ass reactions and respect and it's some bullshit honestly. Dudes confidence and delivery is always through the roof even with all the haters and it's some real commendable shit. His material is always solid, good, or great, but never bad. GIVE THIS MAN HIS RESPECT!

    • @Dirandownthestreet
      @Dirandownthestreet 7 років тому

      Frosty I think mostly because people were happy he finally got a shot with Summer Madness, and the “surprise battle” factor falls into that too.

    • @Dirandownthestreet
      @Dirandownthestreet 7 років тому

      Yaniel Montenegro yeah yo Craig’s bar immediately popped up in my head at that moment. And he was gassed but I just meant in general with all his battles not just these recent ones. I only saw Tez’s first round when I wrote the comment up hahahh.

    • @vzarector87
      @vzarector87 7 років тому

      +Dirandownthestreet
      his bars were medicore this battle, nothing that special stop gassin him. Then watch one of his old grindtime battles when he was a thousand times better, its like night and day.

    • @Dirandownthestreet
      @Dirandownthestreet 7 років тому

      Arson Nick nahhhh chill I ain’t gassing shit Lol my I think he was fire against hitman, Charron and conceited though.

    • @vzarector87
      @vzarector87 7 років тому

      +Dirandownthestreet
      true. honestly i think they gave him respect just by giving him a title shot over other people. i mean he did lose to arsonal just last year

  • @infohnie
    @infohnie 7 років тому +22

    My precious time got 3-0’d.

  • @elijahspeller6796
    @elijahspeller6796 7 років тому +27

    I honestly feel like judges vote for Ice so they don't get beat up 😂😂😂

    • @ReginaldForman
      @ReginaldForman 7 років тому +1

      Elijah Speller shit i would too hahah

    • @keithbrown6010
      @keithbrown6010 7 років тому +1

      Elijah Speller right that’s what I’m saying how is he the champ

  • @TWIZZTHEWHIZKID
    @TWIZZTHEWHIZKID 7 років тому +18

    Cortez should be wearing that chain.

    • @xStrypes
      @xStrypes 7 років тому +2

      Twizz The Whiz Kid Facts smh KOTD fucked up wit this one and they paying for it now

    • @PNGFLO
      @PNGFLO 4 роки тому +1

      Ya for real I watched this battle so many times no where close

  • @jonhardin.
    @jonhardin. 7 років тому +11

    KOTD fans don't fuck with bars like this. Somebody need to crack a gay joke and the place gone go nuts! 😂😂😂 Facts.

  • @LukeNitestalker
    @LukeNitestalker 7 років тому +15

    Cortez lost a round for showing up in that jacket.

  • @BogusBozo
    @BogusBozo 7 років тому +27

    Who else is bored?

  • @pinklightfever
    @pinklightfever 6 років тому +15

    this crowd was the worst kotd crowd of all time. facts.

  • @MrDashdillinger
    @MrDashdillinger 7 років тому +10

    Ice did his ass dirty

  • @Ghost-Of-Euchronia
    @Ghost-Of-Euchronia 7 років тому +11

    1:45 Battle Intro
    4:20 ---- Cortez RD1 ----
    8:17 ---- I.C.E. RD1 ----
    13:11 ---- Cortez RD2 ----
    16:05 "Naaaaaasty"
    18:21 ---- I.C.E. RD2 ----
    23:45 ---- Cortez RD3 ----
    28:45 ---- I.C.E. RD3 ----
    I'ma keep it 100% with yall... How is this even a title battle?? They could of honestly vaulted this shyt, strait facts. Anyway, RD1 on both sides was boring, literally almost fell asleep. RD2 Cortez came out a little stronger and tried to wake the crowd up, the prop was hilarious, all in all good job but still below his better work. I.C.E. RD2 was to me an L off the rip because he didnt even attempt to address Cortez's personals. The rest of his RD2 was like his first boring and dry... I literally found myself thinking "WTF is he even talkin about..."
    In RD 3 Cortez talkin about the future was alright, again still bellow his better work. I spent all of I.C.E.'s RD3 wanting the battle to end, not even kidding.
    So who won? Honestly RD1 sucked on both sides so who cares... RD2 I gave Cortez, the personals were hilarious and didn't get rebutted, easy rd to take for Cortez. RD3 I gave to Cortez as well, I.C.E.'s RD3 was terrible.
    Cortez 2-0 The first round doesnt event count it sucked on both sides.
    Honestly, save yourself some time and only watch Cortez's 2ND & 3RD and skip the rest of the battle.

  • @alexochoa5990
    @alexochoa5990 6 років тому +11

    I am a Cortez fan.. but ICE ALL 3 ROUNDS went personal ... only if u are good can understand what ice was spitting. Fuck the chain ice talked to him. Real shit. Real life shit. Ice 3 - 0

  • @webbwilliams9330
    @webbwilliams9330 7 років тому +5

    That was the first quiet room battle that had a thousand people in the room.

  • @arturoluna3773
    @arturoluna3773 7 років тому +6

    Thanks KOTD for all the battles, but done with you guys.

  • @2facemontana114
    @2facemontana114 7 років тому +3

    This battle was a damn convo

  • @stillsleeep
    @stillsleeep 7 років тому +16

    Damn when did they bring quiet room battles back

  • @all4one151
    @all4one151 7 років тому +10

    kotd voted for ice because of the shit Cortez was saying about battlerap and he painted them in a bad light. Cortez clearly won the first 2

  • @TheKyleAye
    @TheKyleAye 7 років тому +5

    You all keep saying 'crowd needs to wake up'. Crowd was plenty awake and the battle was boring.

  • @montaukett82
    @montaukett82 7 років тому +4

    I thought I told you that we won’t stop, I thought I told you that we won’t stop 👉🏽ahe 👉🏽ahe..😂😂

  • @gaugeengeron834
    @gaugeengeron834 7 років тому +5

    Battle should have been in New York the crowd would have been wild.

  • @coachdee5162
    @coachdee5162 7 років тому +6

    im no tez fan but he won this battle ez . fixed match kotd feels ice is there best option for leading man . rone beat i.c.e to
    biggk vs iron winner vs ICE nobody else is close .

  • @HollyG95
    @HollyG95 7 років тому +11

    Cortez 2-1. First 2 crowd was sleep

  • @odbwukillabee3957
    @odbwukillabee3957 6 років тому +13

    I.C.E be hurting feelings, he's beyong battle rappin he's talking to these dudes man to man. Real talk made Cortez look small...Wolf 2-1

    • @bobmarley42ification
      @bobmarley42ification 5 років тому +1

      you see cortez face in the first when ice rappin.... he looks like a sad puppy that knows he did something wrong. Ice wasnt just spitting bars he was talking to that mans soul

  • @bo2051
    @bo2051 7 років тому +15

    Cortez won

  • @anthonymoody5602
    @anthonymoody5602 6 років тому +6

    I hate when the crowd whack...this battle is actually nice

  • @dukeblue1227403
    @dukeblue1227403 7 років тому +10

    MY GOD.. CORTEZ GOT ROBBED AGAIN!! NO FUCKIN WAY HE LOST THAT BATTLE!!!

  • @pjcuspard9554
    @pjcuspard9554 7 років тому +8

    they might as well have done this in the quiet room

  • @vonbaker5804
    @vonbaker5804 6 років тому +9

    Ice is a monster he speaks another lingo

    • @viitheforeigner
      @viitheforeigner 5 років тому

      True Beloved no he don’t he just a different type of trash

  • @10Trillion707
    @10Trillion707 6 років тому +6

    If you don’t understand ice then say that...but if you think he is wac you clearly aren’t getting what he said. It truly is only built for ...Neva Mnd!

    • @robertbarboza4706
      @robertbarboza4706 6 років тому

      This Nigha Definitely Lost Bruhh Cortez Got Robbed Without A Gun

  • @kerryknight1903
    @kerryknight1903 7 років тому +4

    I watch this to go to sleep now, it's so peaceful and quiet, puts me right to sleep. The deadness of the audience rings out like the sound of crickets or wind. I think I heard a guys cell go off in his pocket in the very back of the building.

  • @ogvdy3428
    @ogvdy3428 7 років тому +9

    CORTEZ 2-1 Damn another robbery. The crowd was dead Toronto gotta do better.

  • @CUTWEST707
    @CUTWEST707 7 років тому +10

    That crowd was COMPLETELY DEAD!!!!!

    • @Sgafify
      @Sgafify 3 роки тому

      That "wear wolf" line was crazy and no one said a thing.

  • @TWIZZTHEWHIZKID
    @TWIZZTHEWHIZKID 7 років тому +5

    10:35 Head I.C.E. literally says, "coming for this chain & got robbed for one".
    Yep, & that's exactly what happened... highway robbery, Cortez clearly took this battle.

  • @powderedwaterpudding
    @powderedwaterpudding 7 років тому +7

    This battle won't do appropriate numbers because everyone heard about how garbage the crowd was and a lot of people aren't excited to see that. Toronto is hurting this brand at exactly the wrong time.

  • @levisnclarks380
    @levisnclarks380 6 років тому +7

    Cortez was more Lyrical This was a bag for Tez. Depends on your style.

  • @outsider2490
    @outsider2490 7 років тому +6

    This was a ROBBERY. Cortez mopped the floor with him, and Ice's 3rd was literally 9 minutes

  • @mvp1116
    @mvp1116 7 років тому +10

    FAST FORWARD TO 47:07 !!!
    BEST PART OF THE BATTLE!!!!

  • @cornellchristian4436
    @cornellchristian4436 7 років тому +7

    THIS WAS DEAD EVEN BUT A TERRIBLE MATCH.....HOW IN THE HELL IS HEAD ICE KOTD CHAMP AND CORTEZ THE TOP CONTENDER??

  • @GigsNotPigs
    @GigsNotPigs 7 років тому +2

    32:17 Cort knows he lost

  • @blckberjackson5265
    @blckberjackson5265 7 років тому +5

    Cortez is his own #1 fan! 😂 my nigga pauses to admire his own line. All love over here!

  • @egone61
    @egone61 7 років тому +13

    I've had nothing but respect for KOTD for years now....but this is some bullshit. I don't even like Cortez but the only debatable round was the 3rd. Cortez took the first 2 EASY. KOTD lost some credibility on this one

  • @CezaMVO
    @CezaMVO 7 років тому +8

    I can't judge this battle fairly because Cortez is the closest thing to a Mexican battle rapper. So I have to give it him.

    • @generalspizzy4679
      @generalspizzy4679 7 років тому +1

      +Guilito Torres I agree. I judge off talent and what u bring that battle.

    • @CezaMVO
      @CezaMVO 7 років тому +2

      All you guys bitching about my comment are stupid. My comment is this thing called a joke. Jesus learn how to take a joke. I know he's not Mexican. God dam it would be amazing if people didn't take every youtube comment so serious.

  • @kastie
    @kastie 7 років тому +5

    Cortez dropped 2 fire battles these days. Nu Jerzy Twork and Head ICE. This dude is working hard.

    • @solin21210
      @solin21210 7 років тому

      Alejandro Goikoetxea No, he's trash

  • @OfficialAmputatedStumps
    @OfficialAmputatedStumps 7 років тому +4

    yo cortez has been gettin better and better. head ice always been one of my faves, but this fuckin crowd omg. even organik had to tell the crowd to wake up

  • @Harley-Sutton
    @Harley-Sutton 4 роки тому +7

    ICE 2-1 Round 2 & 3

  • @famphouse
    @famphouse 7 років тому +4

    This was a SMACK Battle. They couldn't relate..

  • @Augastine1
    @Augastine1 7 років тому +11

    That ain’t no chain .. that’s a necklace

  • @NappyVereen
    @NappyVereen 7 років тому +5

    Head ICE clearly took round 1 Cortez round 2 and I loved Cortez's message the 3rd round hopefully each league takes advice to that and can definitely grow battle rap in general, but Cortez should have grew his league like that instead of giving the idea to other leagues that are already light years ahead of his and I would have to say 2-1 either way even though Cortez's third wasn't directed towards Head Ice but it went harder than ICE's 3rd lots of bars were slept on in this battle and it's frazy looking back at the battle you can see that Organik has a lot of respect for Head ICE but this battle was more competitive than their first battle against each other when Cortez clearly took that 1 rounder

  • @richardpryor6833
    @richardpryor6833 7 років тому +1

    This just set back battle rap 15 years

  • @misaelortiz9627
    @misaelortiz9627 7 років тому +7

    Cortez handled Ice 3-0 but kotd needs a black champ to get more black talent on their cards. Ice is nice but he lost this one.

  • @GigsNotPigs
    @GigsNotPigs 7 років тому +6

    When Cortez says "wait till that third rd, we got sum shit to talk about" - that basically means skip Rds 1&2 cause 3 is gonna be my best.

  • @HaiMyNameIsPhillip
    @HaiMyNameIsPhillip 7 років тому +5

    Man. KoTD title matches been really lackluster lately

  • @RealTalk_Chris
    @RealTalk_Chris 7 років тому +5

    '' It's like global warming because you will never rise to C-Level'' 🔥🔥🔥🔥Cortez

  • @ronaldr8236
    @ronaldr8236 7 років тому +2

    Damn the KOTD crowd slept to the whole battle!! usually they are live but now you can hear a pin drop. Great battle tho!

  • @MrJohnturnerjr
    @MrJohnturnerjr 7 років тому +3

    when keeping it quiet, goes wrong...featuring everyone in that damn place

  • @ATTRAYU
    @ATTRAYU 7 років тому +5

    cortez the first latino member of the heart foundation with dat jacket

  • @nextangel
    @nextangel 7 років тому +16

    Wow I never thought I'd see another Canadian Screw job. First WWF did it to Bret Hart now KOTD did it to Tez. 2-1 Tez all day..

  • @ms.ninetailzjada2389
    @ms.ninetailzjada2389 7 років тому +6

    I call shenanigans who gives a title shot to cortez

  • @YaBoyTheFee
    @YaBoyTheFee 7 років тому +7

    wack ass title match... Bigg K shoulda been champ

  • @esmeraldast.charles1440
    @esmeraldast.charles1440 7 років тому +7

    Tez won, listen to the crowd

  • @cowboysfan2662
    @cowboysfan2662 7 років тому +8

    I don't know what was worst...the crowd or the judges.

    • @generalspizzy4679
      @generalspizzy4679 7 років тому

      They both stated their opinions. Crowd didn't feel to much. Judges had their notes lol. They were taking notes and couldn't react.

  • @jayrwill4213
    @jayrwill4213 6 років тому +6

    Head Ice is nice. Cortez won 2nd & 3rd round..1st round yall choose but Cortez won period.

    • @mainygnac
      @mainygnac 6 років тому +1

      JayR Will bruh...look at Cortez face during the 3rd round, that shit was honestly sad what ICE did to’em

    • @kl2469
      @kl2469 6 років тому

      Lens fucked him up as well

  • @MrAllTheWay89
    @MrAllTheWay89 4 роки тому +5

    I don’t think they was sleep 😴 it was just I don’t think the crowd really understood the content. They are in Canada 🇨🇦 and it’s a lot different from New York

    • @Felix-M.
      @Felix-M. 3 роки тому +1

      Exactly what I thought ....
      I was saying while they were rhyming
      " They don't understand "
      Thats conformation that they didn't understand 😆

  • @PistolDeck
    @PistolDeck 7 років тому +3

    They're not going to make you champion of their battle league if you tell them you're starting your own battle league.

  • @Omar-Mukhtar82
    @Omar-Mukhtar82 7 років тому +2

    Cortez over here looking like Run DMC’s guest appearance in the road warrior.

  • @bloodzupkrabzdown
    @bloodzupkrabzdown 7 років тому +7

    "When I spot you I just bark on you like when Surf around"
    I can just imagine Tsu in jail right now saying I hate Cortez with each push up he does.. #FreeSurf

    • @lennyclifford1175
      @lennyclifford1175 7 років тому

      bloodzupkrabzdown 😂😂😂😂😂😂

    • @TWIZZTHEWHIZKID
      @TWIZZTHEWHIZKID 7 років тому

      bloodzupkrabzdown Surf don't want no smoke with Cortez.

  • @rayleota6005
    @rayleota6005 5 років тому +6

    Cortez bars are all over the place. No substance

  • @henohopar7
    @henohopar7 7 років тому +5

    The Canadian illuminati got to the crowd. Shit was nutty.

  • @sugarconecandy
    @sugarconecandy 6 років тому +8

    Cor is whack!

  • @AntsRants77
    @AntsRants77 Рік тому +5

    They both got 30'd by the crowd

  • @YoungMadness100
    @YoungMadness100 7 років тому +13

    Yo wtf ice be talking about

  • @Pudgetube
    @Pudgetube 3 роки тому +4

    5:20 - you tell somebody SMD and they walk you down while you're rapping...you lose that round.

  • @faseblanco4857
    @faseblanco4857 7 років тому +5

    To be completely honest, those judges looked like they were forced to do something they didnt want to do. You can see it in their face. KOTD how about you let the fans decide who wins instead of paying these judges to pick who yall want to win. KOTD is getting wack as fuck. Cortez won this shit, Organik knows it, Gully knows it, Bishop knows it. No wonder Pat Stay didnt want that fake ass chain anymore. Give it to somebody that can actually win.... No respect for KOTD anymore. I thought the chain was a good idea, but not if you guys pick and choose who holds it. SUPER CORNYYY....

    • @jamiekelly552
      @jamiekelly552 7 років тому +1

      I feel you.. a title is sapossed to be earned not given.. kotd was the shit now diz telling it how it is.. and other rappers slowly saying about crooked judges.. big k and others.. I think they really need to rethink their prioritys before they loose there fan base.. and worse... the rappers that make kotd what it is.... because let's face it.. without the rappers drawing interest and generating profits what's the name kotd really gonna mean.. nothing.. make it real.. fuck the bullshit and be loyal to who makes you doh... judge the battles correct.. no bias bullshit.. nuthing should be given.. should be earned.. but hey ain't most of the world corrupt and bias... sad but that's society

    • @xStrypes
      @xStrypes 7 років тому

      They views dying already. Ice is light

  • @otisperry4382
    @otisperry4382 7 років тому +3

    When Ice losing, he gets emotional and starts saying "yeah, yeah, you'll catch it later". Nigga no we won't.

    • @e248w
      @e248w 7 років тому

      Nigga did you get it? Lol.

  • @innersanctum8481
    @innersanctum8481 6 років тому +4

    ice is HORRIBLE don't care what anyone says even the crowd didn't care for his shit how did he win??!?!?!

  • @deamondavis1952
    @deamondavis1952 7 років тому +6

    Cortez got Rob cor 2-1

  • @puff5476
    @puff5476 7 років тому +8

    Definitely worst title match KOTD ever put on.

  • @blackandproud83
    @blackandproud83 7 років тому +7

    Crowd had me thinking this battle was on U Dubb

    • @generalspizzy4679
      @generalspizzy4679 7 років тому

      lol U Dubb be hard to impress. Crowd was showing that wolf love. Crowd was on they gangsta wolf mode.

  • @jermiahking2107
    @jermiahking2107 7 років тому +2

    surf told X factor... I give em 9 like a fiend coming short, Cortez just told Ice give em 9 like when fiends come short

  • @LSHTV
    @LSHTV 7 років тому +3

    If there was a doubt the first time these 2 battled. Then Head I.C.E made it absolutely clear this time by killing Cortez

  • @crookeddreams1007
    @crookeddreams1007 6 років тому +8

    cortez is horrible

  • @xxrigo22xx
    @xxrigo22xx 4 роки тому +6

    Battle is great, this crowd sucks.. i guess if it isn't cliche joke shit they don't react. Jeez, I hate that I was like that.

  • @jamieboy8599
    @jamieboy8599 7 років тому +5

    KOTD dropped the ball by giving ICE the chain... Bigg K or Dizaster should have the chain..

  • @iMasterMyBlade
    @iMasterMyBlade Місяць тому

    12:17 was soooo unexpected, the awkward silence and some bottle falling down noise background lmao 🤣

  • @NorEEzta
    @NorEEzta 3 роки тому +3

    Part of what makes these battles good is the crowd reaction.

  • @OutDoorsWithBama
    @OutDoorsWithBama 7 років тому +5

    Is the statue of limitations up on this? I can’t be a witness to a robbery again!!

  • @forrealforreal8723
    @forrealforreal8723 7 років тому +5

    Cortez won but kotd knows that he would either turn down the chain or he doesn't appeal to the kotd crowd that's why they gave it to ice.

  • @Mockturtlesoup1
    @Mockturtlesoup1 7 років тому +4

    man, they weren't kidding about the crowd for this event being dead. throws off the whole fuckin battle.

    • @turrelldagod6996
      @turrelldagod6996 7 років тому

      Mockturtlesoup1 what's up with the crowd Bru lol there no love in the building for them

  • @user-wy3kt1ye1p
    @user-wy3kt1ye1p 7 років тому +3

    I don't know what in the hell these judges are smoking........ SMDH Cortez clearly clearly won this battle

  • @joshjackson1144
    @joshjackson1144 7 років тому +3

    Peep the body language at 5:20 ... Tez was talking tough and as soon as ice turned and faced him he went to backing up

  • @trencehumphries645
    @trencehumphries645 7 років тому +7

    Poor Organik and the mcs. Trying their best to hype up this zombie ass crowd

  • @TheOfficialPuShMusic
    @TheOfficialPuShMusic 7 років тому +4

    2 Matches in a row Ice lost, but yet still won? Cortez didn't even get at Ice the last round and had it clearly in my opinion.

  • @DJPhree330
    @DJPhree330 7 років тому +4

    Ganik: let's get this shit poppiiiiin!
    Crowd: no.

  • @NueNues
    @NueNues 6 років тому +4

    This crowd was flat out DEAD...Deadman's walking...I loved Cortez's first battle against ICE though...There was something missing in Cortez's performance. I thought he needed to bring more than spitting the obvious about Head Ice being old...Ice can spit, and it's not about bars, but when he spits, he commands the room......I thought Ice just enough to win this battle...I expected more from Cortez especially when he got robbed in that first battle with Ice...He spit a lot of personal shyt though that went over people's heads....

  • @Pudgetube
    @Pudgetube 3 роки тому +2

    16:43 Qwest Mccody studying that pic. Look like he got the magnifying glass out and then he looked at the jumbo screen for confirmation. Lol

  • @cuseorange15
    @cuseorange15 7 років тому +6

    I don't blame the crowd for being terrible. This was a terrible battle. I bet they regret rigging the last match against Rone.

  • @PNGFLO
    @PNGFLO 4 роки тому +5

    Ice 🧊 he too nice" if you try to decept a con im a let the auto bop you"

  • @cevenqurkle821
    @cevenqurkle821 7 років тому +6

    I tried but the crowd 3 0'd them both...

  • @homerguy4444
    @homerguy4444 7 років тому +6

    I think kotd is scared of ice. They should have a fan online vote maybe. Ive seen too many of these chain battles go the wrong way, disaster vs pat, pat vs charron, etc.