If I'm honest, modes held me back
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- Опубліковано 29 тра 2024
- Inspired by a recent post of Guthrie Trapp's. I haven't ever heard anyone mention modes since moving to Nashville, either. Here's why I think focusing on them held me back from where I personally wanted to go and what I think about instead.
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0:00 Welcome! Modes held me back.
1:00 Disclaimer :)
2:09 Here’s a working definition for “mode”
3:37 How modes held me back…
5:28 Where I actually wanted to go…
7:34 This video is for you if…
8:12 EX 1 a chord progression in the key of G
12:44 THE ENTIRE POINT OF THIS VIDEO
13:30 EX 2 a chord progression that doesn’t fit neatly into one key
15:39 Everything is chords.
17:50 Closing thoughts. Please SUBSCRIBE
Thanks for hanging out!
Let me address two things: 1) I don’t think I’ve ever had a natural musical ability. It comes down to one thing only: hours. Not just any hours. FOCUSED hours of practice. Sweat. Frustration. Almost walking away a thousand times but not actually doing so. Tiny, incremental breakthroughs that add up over the years. No one’s fingers go to the right notes automatically. All I’m saying in this video is that focusing on chord tones instead of thinking what scale or mode I’m in got me where I wanted to go. And where I wanted to go, as I said in the video, is playing melodies. Saying something with my playing that is compelling to others in the same way that I find my favorite players compelling. More on this to come…
2) I’m not saying that I don’t use ANY framework at all. I’m just saying that when I think of scales or modes, that tends to be what comes out. When I think of chord tones, something more melodic comes out. At this point, I’m really not trying to think of anything…just listening and trying to get out on the guitar the melodies I hear in my head. Pat Metheny has said that he thinks in triads and uses arpeggios to get around the fretboard. I think this is a lot closer to what I’m doing. More on this to come as well…
I think they call that sub conscious competence. Do all the theory study to a level your not thinking of it when playing.
I'm not there yet
Ok, the song is a country song with 3 chords C, F, G. What do you play on the solo and explain how that isn't math or a mode? Major scale = Ionian Mode = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 , 6, 7. Looks like math and modes to me?
What is the Nashville Numbering system? Math? That progression is a I IV V. Based on what?
I = C = 1,3,5
IV = F = 1,3,5
V = G = 1,3,5
C major Pentatonic = 1, 2, ,3 ,5, 6
1,3,5 of what? Chord tones of what? Degrees of what? I, IV, V of what? Wouldn't that be of a scale which is also a mode?
My point being music is based on math and modes whether you are thinking about or not. ;-)
@@DavidHenderson01All I’m saying is, I’m focusing more on the chord tones you listed out and not so much on the scale formulas, etc. You might think that way, and that’s fine. But I find that I play more compelling, melodic stuff when I *don’t* think that way.
@@JustinOstrander What I am saying is the triads you are focusing on are based on modes/scales you are not focused on. And that all that harmony that you are not focused on is based on math. But it is all still there whether you happen to think about it or not. Like nouns, verbs, adjectives, etc... when we speak.
BTW, I am able to think about it in way more than one way which I am sure you are too. It all works! That's the beauty of music....thanks!!
I understand both points being made but it is a big stretch to say you don’t want to hear math in music when modern country music is so full of cliche based entirely on the number of any given chord. Of course everybody wants to free their mind and play from the heart but you guys are under pressure, banging out songs on the clock and employ a number system and the common phrases/cliche’s/devices associated with it to get the job done.
I think the best soloing advice I got from a UA-cam teacher was : forget modes and learn phrases that are inspired from the music your trying to solo to. He was a old jazz guitarist and said he listen’s to music and finds a song within a song that inspires him. I do that and really does help.
I’m so glad that you said this! I think Lenny Kravitz once said: I’d rather hear someone play one A note over and over again with passion than to hear someone play scales all over the place. That really resonated with me as a guitar player growing up.
Joe Strummer said something to the effect that he would rather listen to a novice struggle to play at the edge of their ability, and pull it off, then listen to a virtuoso.
I wonder if Mr Kravitz would listen to someone play modes with passion. That person would be Carlos Santana, who regularly used modal ideas in his playing. I could keep going with a list hundreds of names long but Santana is KNOWN for his passion. The point is you can know your instrument AND play with passion since those things don’t cancel each other out.
My guitar teacher showed me the mixolydian and dorian modes and studying and listening to how those modes sound like has really opened up my harmonic palette when I improvise. I think modes can be a great teaching vehicle if you don't look at them too mechanically.
Yes there awesome.i just look at them as extensions of the major scale.always look at everything from the major scale.makes it much easier for me.its all about the chord progression.once I figured out if you start with a d chord,it doesn’t mean it’s in the key of d always.big lightbulb moment
Jake at Signals Music Studio is a very technical thinker (and a great teacher!) but explained modes as feelings rather than specific entities. This really helped me understand how to use 7th chords, substitute chords, borrowed chords, etc. There isn't a specific formula for anything, the notes should advance the feeling. It's great to hear @justinostrander bring a similar conclusion from a very different journey. And the hat tip to Jimmy Page's emoting rather than shredding is huge.
Modes are going for parallel and relative thinking. I bet you think completely differently about your approach to every song you play.
Modes are a system of organization.
Modes simply allow you to experiment with major scale, mangle it, and "name" it.
All the little licks he played sure sounded like some kind of mode to me. You can either reinvent the wheel or skip the line and learn modes.
I am so thankful that you are on YT. Things are happening here that are unlike other channels. The best thing you can share with us is YOU. We are getting priceless info from your life experiences, and they are a wellspring. THANK YOU.
It’s all about the chords…
This is the approach I want to take - Thanks for this 👍
The title of this video should be “if I’m honest, modes helped me”. Here’s the plot hole: knowing what triads and chord tones are is VERY difficult without knowing a diatonic scale (AKA a mode). Learning any amount of music theory is going to be near impossible without knowing a diatonic scale (AKA a mode). Even the Nashville Number System is fully based on knowing a diatonic scale (AKA a mode) and Guthrie and Justin use that every single day to make a living. I have been playing professionally for 40 years (US Army Band & USMC Band) and count Grammy winners as my former students and I can promise you without reservation that learning the modes on your guitar will help you. It will help your technique and train your ear. I can also tell you learning modes is one step of the process and that you do get past it to the next thing…unless of course you let someone on the internet convince you it isn’t worth it…in that case you will always be on the other side of that obstacle while the rest of us move on.
This video can be distilled down to: chords, not scales.
“But chords come from scales; they’re the same thing!”
If that helps you, fine. For me, it’s so much more about harmony. I’m far from the first to think this. Pat Metheny is a great example.
I must be missing something….
I play all the same styles of music as Justin and use modes constantly. And think of it as such.
- dropping a mixolydian lick in when a b7 chord comes is 🤌🏻
- Playing minor over major to get that blues growl at the peak of a solo is 🤌🏻
- swapping between Lydian and mixolydian in a ‘fire on the mountain’ 4-5 chord progression is 🤌🏻
- dropping that natural 6 of a Dorian scale when doing a bluesy solo 🤌🏻
I see how it doesn’t work for all, but it works for me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I think it’s more than what you teach Justin, and that of course is inspiring itself. It’s your delivery. Your presentation-demeanor and attitude is so peaceful and calming. People need that. Thx
Looking forward to and patiently awaiting your guitar courses! Great video! Happy Thanksgiving!
Everything Justin mentioned about shapes and modes rings true for me. We can lean them but if we don't know how to put them together it is useless.
I'd love to learn more!
Justin, this was the most insightful and helpful advice I have ever received. Thank so much you for taking the time to share your perspective. This is really going to help my playing and make me a better guitar player. Cheers from Sydney Australia.
Tell a story beyond the technical facility $$$$$ 🥰🥰
Modes are not just patterns. They are tonalities. Each mode has a different flavor. Focusing on the sound is more important than the pattern.
Breath of fresh air - enlightening and inspiring.
Creativity doesn't come from technical prowess. It comes from feeling and inspiration and being a conduit for the music. Those who don't possess it, dissect it!
There was an ad that played during this video where the guy said just learn this one (scale) pattern and play anything! lol
Myself and a buddy were taking a look at Carol Kaye talking about her earlier career. She said back in the day, they weren't thinking of scales and basing everything off of them. They were thinking of chord tones. I thought that was well and good for a pop musician but then we heard her playing with Joe Pass and well, never mind. She obviously knows what she's talking about. Wow!
Yeah, great point. Pat Metheny is a big chord tone stickler as well.
Have you ever seen Carol Kaye play guitar? She's a great bebop soloist. Also saw her and Joe Pass, she asked Joe to play bass and she played his ES-175.
Nailed it Justin. It was Derek Trucks who really opened my ears to what honest playing sounds like, and it sounds nothing like straight up scales and modes. Targeting chord tones and knowing the song inside and out is what’s important to finding your voice.
How do you know what a chord tone is? Why learn that but not modes?
@@edbernardmusic3599 As Justin said, it depends on what you’re trying to accomplish with the instrument. If you’re wanting to be more expressive and melodic, knowing how to target chord tones is essential. If you’re motivated by technical skill and fast playing, then sure, learning all the modes in all positions will help you to achieve that. You choose where to focus your time to get the results you’re after.
Modes aren't positions, they're notes. You use them all the time in slow playing and melodies.@@japanjay
Arpeggios are all chord tones. You're not required to play them fast.@@japanjay
@@edbernardmusic3599 Yep, there aren’t any rules on how you should approach making music, it’s all just notes in the end. How technical you want to get is up to the individual. The point was it’s sometimes better to lead with the heart instead of the head.
Compelling and illuminating. As DC Berman put it, "All my favorite singers couldn't sing." So true.
Go K State, too. 😊
I jumped on this when I saw the title because I was really interested to hear your take on it Justin. When I started playing lead guitar I went to a teacher who immediately got me into scales and modes. I found though, when I started playing in original bands, playing vocal/lyric based music I couldn't really apply it. It was almost like I had to unlearn what I'd learned...or that way of thinking.
These days I just generally try to create a part in my head paying a lot of attention to respect the vocal melody because, as I said I'm playing vocally driven music. I guess most of us are really!
I'm not a huge fan of sales and modes. My first instructor worded it in a way that sat with me. If you can hear it in your head, you can play it with your hands. That seems to be the way to go for me, I have a decent ear, so it works rather well.
Only if you have a certain amount of technique and knowledge.@@donbishop6994
If I'm being honest -- I had to cleanse my palate of this subject.
I went back in time, January 27 2023 to the JO video "How to play 'Til You Can't' and jammed with the track. Just about 1,000 subscribers back then.
Then I went to the video on October 25, 2023 where you played parts to "Right Time" and played along with that. Freaking awesome song and band. Loved playing with the track. Someone noted 37,000 subscribers then.
Quite a year for the JO channel. 😎🎸
Scales and modes are like roadmaps, they only take you where someone has already been
That comment ALMOST got it right. They ARE like roadmaps…they tell you where you CAN go but not where you HAVE to go. BTW literally every guitarist (and other musicians) including JO are playing modes whether they think that way or not. Playing a major sound and flatting the seventh IS mixolydian. A minor sound with the major sixth IS Dorian. Thinking modally is one way to arrive at that sound but there are others.
Obviously only speaking for myself, but an understanding of modes helps me navigate other people's compositions when thrown in to a situation. The chords of the song create the mood/vibe and an understanding of modes, not just as a scale but as an emphasis or perspective from one of the 7 chords of a given major scale, helps me know where I am and what chords are immediately available to me in a given moment/position.
I am still responding to the melodic lines my brain is creating on the spot and doing my best to materialize them immediately. I'm not playing patterns, modal understanding allows me to find those notes in my head on the fretboard on the spot/in the moment. Modes are seen as fragments, but they are of course are all just the one scale they're based in. CAGED and modes are the same information, the same 7 intervals. We all connect with concepts in our own way. Again, the chords tell us the modality, it's like a compass or a "You are here" spot on a map in a place you've never been before.
You are a great speaker/communicator. Not as easy as it looks. Not to mention an inspiring player. Love the video. Happy holidays!
Thanks a ton!
Fantastic video. Really glad I was introduced to your channel yesterday. Music and language are similar. We learn language at a young age by hearing it and repeating what we have heard. We don't think through grammar rules as a five year old or as a 55 year old to verbally express ourselves.
My guitar teachers would write out the modes and hand them to me but never would explain how to actually make music with them. Great video I agree completely.
In the late seventies I somehow convinced a young Mark O'Connor into giving me guitar lessons. He was 16 and already had several albums under his belt. Man was that humbling lol. He had taken lessons when he was younger from my previous guitar teacher Al Turray, a jazz guy. Anyway at the end of the first lesson I asked him if there were any scales I should be practicing. Mark said and I quote "scales are for beginners, practice playing music".
Probably my best lesson from him involved the rhythm part for sweet Georgia brown. Mark grabbed my right hand when I was struggling to play it and said I can see you're trying to count it. You'll never get it that way, just listen to me play it again and feel it. So I did and damned if I didn't start just grooving and playing the hell outta it. Just had to stop thinking.
I’m the same way, Justin - I want to feel like I’m hearing a human voice coming through the instrument: phrases, pushes and pulls against the chords, and those big, obvious turns between chords that aren’t root notes, and little inflections. Seeing you here sure reminds me of our old jams in my parent’s basement! One of my favorite memories from the 90’s. I can still hear that little blues riff pattern you used to start us off with 1-8-b7-5. Sure a fun way to cut your teeth with friends. So fun to see where you’ve gone!
Those were good times and very formative for me!
First off, this is a great video. Great playing, great human advice. Every time I’ve tried to go beyond the major scale it doesn’t feel or sound right. The guy who showed me music theory (before internet) quickly showed me the major scale, then the 1,3,5, to make the triads and said, “that’s all you really need to know”
I’ve watched it seems a million mode videos but never grasped the concept until your simple explanation. Now that I know what they are, I can continue to ignore them. Thanks, J!!
Modes are flavors! Io = vanilla, Myxo = jazzy, Dori = bluesy, Aol = bluesy-jazzy, Phryg = spanish.... on and on..... circle of 4ths and beyond. I appreciate your take on it all!
This is so invaluable. Thank you, Justin. So very appreciated.
Thank you Justin. I agree 100% and wish I would’ve had a teacher like you when I was younger. I wasted a lot of time.
You make me feel better about making music. I've only been playing the guitar for three years and I found the scales uninspiring and hard to stick with because it didn't feel expressive or musical but still require a load of mental energy. And along the lines of what you were saying I had a vocal teacher talking about how to arrange a song to show off ones voice. I just want to make music that expresses emotions, feeling, love... that's how I want my validation. I identify with Harlan Howard- "Three chords and the truth." Which is good cause I don't know many more chords than that. lol :oD
It never ceases to fascinate me how we (the guitar nerd universe inhabitants) on the one hand idolize players like Page, Knopfler, Gilmore, Hendrix, etc whose philosophy and approach aligns with yours, yet on the other hand are seduced by the allure of pure (non-musical) technical proficiency. Your course will stand out in a very positive way. Looking forward.
Thank you for this, Justin. I’ve been playing for a long time and only recently began focusing on playing the changes, knitting together rhythm and lead parts. Because I tend to overthink things, I also went down the rabbit hole of scales, keys, modes etc, and was frustrated to find that I always seemed to sound uninspired and frankly, unmusical. Focusing on chord tones while soloing has started a whole new journey, but here’s the thing - even the simplest of targeted, intentional notes played with feeling sounds better than the prior box I was in. The examples you played, Justin, solidified it for me. I could hear every chord change in your lead lines, which drew me in to a musical story. Thanks for this - a real gift.
My high school son is getting good and eyeballing school jazz band for next year. I was trying to share THIS EXACT IDEA with him, but I couldn’t articulate it this well. Your “chords through the solo” section is EVERYTHING! It mirrors the best advice on musicianship I ever received. I just sent him this video. I’m going to make him watch it. Twice. 🤘🏽💪👍
Thanks a ton!
for years I tried to get better at my guitar playing...didn't seem like I was progressing. I attended a Martin Taylor guitar retreat. focus was on melody....so, now my practice revolves around trying to picture melodic lines that I think in my head and having my fingers play what I am thinking. a great practice was doing what some jazz singers/guitarists would do was sing out the same notes they would play....I remember George Benson doing that..at first I thought it wasn't something I liked to hear BUT is is amazing practice to connect what is going on in your head to what your fingers are playing...so now most of my practice is based on slowing down and programing my fingers to play what I am actively thinking. knowing where that tone I hear is on the fretboard....
Justin, Much thanks to you for covering all the things that are dear to me RE: Guitar. Could you cover triads and triad pairs on a video in the future. I've hit a plateau in my playing and its put the brakes on my practice and overall enthusiasm for playing. My UA-cam video production is at an all time low. I want to confidently provide great video's but I think I need to get past this glitch in my progress as a player. Honestly I think i'm an OK player but I need to get past this.
Haha! You were really not selling that modes thing! The way you explained it is exactly how I understood and was taught modes. It was not useful. All my solos sounded like an exercise.
I have to say that I love your channel, and your insights. In my post under I describe how I got to understand the concept after working my head through it.
I play by ear myself, and most of the time I the timeI try to outline the chords when improvising.
I remember when first time I sort of ‘got it’. I was practicing a song in Aminor, but my guitar teacher had given me charts of how to play a c major scale… it took a few days, but when I saw that the same notes could give different feelings, it helped.
A mixolydian feeling, or a dorian is different than a aolian or major /ionian feel.
In the guitar video modes no more mystery Frank gambale showed that feeling by playing and repeating the two major triads that were separated by a whole tone in each mode. Then improvising over the top.
Since the two major triads only appear once in each mode seperated by a whole tone only, it helps the brain to get the ‘feeling’ of each mode.
Anyways this is just a few things that came into my mind after watching your video. I absolutely love the videos coming from the Nashville guys these days! Keep them coming!
From the west coast of Norway, Rolf Martin Haldorsen
I learned the biggest portion of my playing from being in cover bands.... Copying other guitar players ....Tones, techniques , fx usage, etc.....The interesting thing I found is that I would copy them note for note and some where along the way, I had interjected my own subtle thing to it. "Stealing" from other players is a great way to develop your own style.
The light has come on for me, and I won't stop looking for more colors of that light. :)
Wow, I feel seen and wish I saw this 30 years ago... (I also have two math degrees!) The way I describe it: both an aviation engineer and an eagle understand the principles of flight, but in different ways. To me, Jimmy Page, EVH, The Beatles, and other greats are eagles when it comes to theory: they know it on an abstract, intuitive level. They couldn't explain sh!t at a whiteboard, but they sure can execute.
Always felt that, creativity not maths. Like working in a DAW, you come up with a creative idea, then spend ages, messing with levels and plugins, hey the idea is gone.
Those are probably the worst examples of musicians who can’t explain music theory ❤
they definitely knew theory. I dont think hes saying you shouldnt learn theory. I think hes just saying you dont need it to write parts. Its great for explaining parts though.@@bedroomexplorations6800
@@bedroomexplorations6800Wes
@@bedroomexplorations6800 Petrucci, Vai, Satriani 🙂
Finally, an explanation of Modes that doesn't cause my brain to spin out, and not only that I can immediately see how I can use it in my improvisations. This along with mixing minor and major scales is enough to jam to my heart's content. Modulations though are still a mystery
Modes are sounds: you need to play C Major, C Dorian, C Phrygian, C Lydian etc. to really hear the sound of them properly and treat them as their own keys with their own harmony to really get the sound in your ears. Most of them are not used for pop / rock / blues etc. because they are simply inappropriate sounds to use in those styles. Learning the sound of intervals against a root note is way more valuable than just learning a bunch of visual patterns and running them up and down. Chord tones are essential and tie into this whole sound/listening idea (crazy I know).
Wow I sure said the word sound a lot there didn't I?
Excellent!!! Your manner of explaining the concepts you are discussing are great! Your approach is so incredibly accurate to real life and what I refer to as “real guitar” playing. I don’t mean to dismiss those that know the scales, the modes, and have spent years on technique. There is certainly something to be said for that and I certainly admire those such as Steve Via (who is a personal hero)and Tim Henson, their technique and proficiency across the fretboard is absolutely incredible. But being able to improvise and weave a melody or a lead in and around the chords of the song are in my opinion an entirely different animal and you have done an excellent job of explaining that and how that works
i've waited 20 years to hear this, Modes spoiled it for me 20 something years ago... thanks for uploading this Justin... I'm really happy the algorithm let me to your channel. Now, you're going to come up with a course?
Straight up sound counsel, wish I saw this vid 30 years ago.
When I started lessons 30 years ago after a while my teacher started to learn me the modes. He mapped them out on several sheets of paper with all the boxes and such. It was natural to him because he was a schooled teacher and a session guitar player here in holland. I started to learn all the shapes but I couldn't find a musical context for it. It began to frustrate me more and more that I didn't get it. I quit lessons and foundanother teacher and he learned me to improvise using the notes in the chord structures and appergios. That opened up a whole new way of playing to me. Immediately my playing became more melodic in a way that I could express my emotions more naturally. Modes are fine but for me it didn't work.
Really enjoying the channel! I would be interested in more content like this if you are willing. Basically, how you would learn guitar now if you had to start over in order to optimize your time. Lessons related to this would be very cool!
That's so true! Some of my favorite players aren't technical at all, in a way!!! They play beautiful melodic melodies! Mike Campbell, Keith Richards, David Gilmour, Eric Clapton, and so many more. It comes from your heart and soul. When I'm playing live or in the studio, I try to just get out of the way and let the magic happen. That works the best for me. Thank you so much for everything you do on your channel. I really love it here!!!
Absolutely golden advice. I've been playing for decades, stuck in patterns. I am just NOW getting the flick on chord tones. Damn!
Very good! Chord tones are where it's at. Modal playing has its place, but getting hung up on any one thing holds people back.
Outstanding. Been soo flailing around with modes/scales; then when I say f it, find something cool. THANK YOU!!
Triads and Triad pairs have been helpful to me so far. Although It's been frustrating too. Great content Justin.
Great video! I've heard jazz players talk about this topic, but its nice to see it applied in such a clear way. Definitely worth a subscribe!
Let me start by saying that your approach to soloing is my approach to soloing. I taught myself intervals, not scales for the same mathematical and feel reasons you have. Where I wish I had a better grasp of modes is for pulling out surf twang. I was in the middle of a worship song one day at church, and I could feel it coming. I took a 4 bar break in the middle of the song, and I was touching on Dick Dale - and it totally worked. I don’t know which mode it was, but it was something like a klezmer mode. I have a thing for klezmer, especially pre-war, and I’m not even a fan of clarinets generally. I like flamenco for the same reason. The region north of Africa was a melting pot of cultures and the music reflects it. I find modes, including surf twang, clear my very western pallet and intuitions a bit, but I’m not fluent in them. Guess I just admitted to being a musical gringo. I’m surprised to hear modes coming out of top 40 radio more and more. Every once in a while one will catch my ear at work.
Great insights here. Most of my students struggle with conceptualizing what modes are and how to use them- especially guitar players who are seeking to expand out of a blues-oriented playing tradition. This is not surprising since modes are a diatonic concept and blues is not. The place I've landed with teaching, and with harmonic concepts in general, is that chords, scales, and chord progressions are reducible to a distinct tonality. So, if you're playing over a G chord, you have a range of tonal choices to draw from including major (Ionian), Lydian, Mixolydian, major blues, major pentatonic, Ionian #5, and more. You can extend this tonality concept to chord progressions where things get a little trickier since you can encounter progressions that support one scale tonality or multiple. As for the idea that 'it's all chords,' I agree in the sense that chords are the easiest way for the listener to hear distinct tonality represented by the triad. However, scales also have a distinct tonality that can be perceived clearly as long as the tonal center of the scale is made clear by either the accompaniment or the choice of phrasing by the soloist.
You wonderfully put into words my whole philosophy. Thanks!
This channel is rad. So glad I found it.
This video was heaven-sent for me. I've been guilty of just memorizing patterns and such, and I've had no idea how to break out of it all. Will definitely keep an eye open for your courses.
Justin, that's a great idea for a mini class. I internalized modes many years ago, and they still serve a purpose. However, I would have been much better off learning early on to play around chord tones. I'm a naturally melodic player by nature, but I tend to stick to key centers rather than really hearing individual chords go by and playing accordingly. I'm experienced enough that my ears take me to good choices note-wise anyway, but I'd unlock another level of creativity and possibilities if I really learned to internalize chord tones rather than scale tones (even though they're really the same thing, just a different way of hearing things and that makes a big difference). The muscle memory thing is real, and it's hard to break out of established patterns once you've put in thousands of hours doing things a particular way.
This video has helped me immensely. I stopped trying to think about which mode to play and instead just focused on using my ear. You said the G, Bb, Eb chord progression doesn't fit neatly into a key, but fits into the Bb key so you can play Bb major all over it and just target the "modes" when the chords change, which I think is the point of modes and even what you're doing in this video. So even if you don't think about modes, you're still using them. I don't know, I think there's value in knowing the theory behind the modes but then just playing where your ear takes you, which will still be modes.
When you say "fits into the Bb key", how do you define "fits" . . . because the diatonic chord would be G minor rather than the G major that JO played. As you said, we are better off using our ears to navigate the solo over whatever chord progression is thrown at us.
I agree with the context of the explanation. If you set aside technique and think about what makes the "dorian" sound. The b7 and b3. Now you have a label for the sound. That is the value of the modes . A label for a sound. Learning to recognize the sound of modes is the money. Modes don't belong in the technique column. Audiation and communcation.
I totally relate. I spent years in college learning theory, scales and modes - which were necessary in the jazz program at North Texas University. But I literally feel that it took me years to kind of “forget” it. I feel that that knowledge is necessary as it subliminally provides context within a chord sequence. But as I grew older - to me, it’s all about the song. When playing a solo I try to imagine performing a sax solo. Something memorable. Something that “sings”. Neal Schon of Journey is a brilliant mix of melody and shred. Serve the song first. Engage the listener - then if there is room, show some flash. I dunno. I DO know I loved this video and all your content. Cheers and thanks! 🙏
I also went to North Texas and even though my whole day was consumed with music, modes were about as useful as a slide ruler. Lou Marini once told me the secret to great and endless solos were in modes. They obviously served him well.
@@ViaMichaelRocksDoes anyone else cringe at the idea of endless solos? 😂
"It's a great way to do math while playing..." LOVE IT! That's how I felt. I really wanted to nerd out on Joe Pass but, alas, I could not. :) (And I was good at college math.)
I stumbled upon what you're saying when I figured out Don Felder's lead in "Take it Easy." It's all in the chords.
This video is really helpful. Thanks!
Brilliant! Love this, rather hear someone play from the heart emotively than shred modes and scales!
Yet they're still using modes and scales.
Not necessarily. If you view music through that lens, then sure, you’re always going to come up with a framework to describe it. But for me, that does not help me to play things that I find melodically interesting. Chord tones > scales for me. You may say, “but those are ultimately the same thing!” Sure, but where your perspective lies will shape how you play. I am just simply more creative the less I put everything into a scale/mode framework. Your mileage may vary.
I agree. I hesitated making my comments here because it's so nuanced.My worst playing occurs when I'm trying to theorize my way through music. Other times I have a great time combining minor blues, mixolydian and altered scale because I've muscled it in so much it's part of my shake bag. Every time I demonstrate that combination to students I always say "Well, that example sucked because i'm thinking about it too much"@@JustinOstrander
100% agree! What a great way to practice and find the notes that connect the most with your own ears on a particular chord. Thanks!
I never thought of modes as a pattern. To me it’s just a tool that helps me understand what my ear is hearing when the tonal center shifts or is set to another scale degree other than the root of the key. If I’m playing the notes in Cmajor scale against a chord progression centered around an Eminor with the bass note being E, my ear is hearing intervals from E not C so the c scale now takes on a different sound or works in another mode. This would be Phrygian. It’s just a way of organizing sounds and being able to communicate to another musician what that is. But yes it’s not required to make good music. Most good musicians end up playing many things that they have no idea how to effectively communicate to someone else how to do. As far as the pattern thing I always thought it was just a useful way to show someone a possible mode pattern due to the first note becoming 1 or root note. Many ways to get the results. I have noticed many students struggle with these concepts as well. Great video!😊
Thank you so much for this. I have been thinking about this for years and could never get my mind around it. The way you described modes and chord tones broke open that wall.
Beautiful shared! Love it, thank you!
So great you are doing instruction. You have very quickly become my favorite guitar player since you launched your channel and I have always wondered- how on earth do you come up with those note choices and have such unreal timing to be so musical. All I can say is THANK YOU!
I don’t wanna do or hear Math when I play or listen to music either. I’ve been studying jazz lately with a phenomenal teacher, who specializes in the Barry Harris pedagogy for lack of a better word: Chris Parks-of “the things I learned from Barry Harris” channel .
it’s amazing-it’s really cool. but the one thing I struggle with is contrary motion or “counterpoint.”a) it’s really hard but B) because I feel like I’m having to do math even though that’s really not what it is but it feels like that to me so I need to get over that because it is a beautiful sound. but I agree with you about the modes. I know them inside and out but I never think about them anymore- especially now that I’m working on this stuff. Chris jokes that Barry never said the word “mode” in 30 years of studying with him. of course, Barry never thought about chord, tones, or wrong notes, or any of those kind of stuff. He has his totally different set of rules, which actually makes things much more free than all the diatomic rules that I had learned for the past 30 years. 😫😊
love yr channel brother!
PS totally agree with you about Jimmy page. I think his live playing was so sloppy because he was basically drunk. I think if he had been sober, maybe it would’ve been less fun to play those shows I don’t know I’m not Jimmy page. but the studio stuff is amazing because he had time to craft the stuff and play the parts with more care &precision. I’ve learned a bunch of zeppelin note for note-made multitrack recordings of them and I was blown away by how many parts are actually on a lot of the Led Zeppelin tunes things you don’t even hear, but when you dig up like actual charts of the tunes and you look and you see what’s really there and then you listen again you can hear it and it’s like oh my God. Yeah page is amazing.
Like so many people that I have seen, I was looking for the magic pill that would make me play fluidly and creatively . I taught myself modes and some theory and I still was lost. Previously I learned songs that I liked but found that I could play it but that was all I could play, I did not understand what was going on behind the licks. Then I found Guthrie and began to learn about outlining chords, triads, and arpeggios. I still think diatonic theory is invaluable to understand the most musical opportunities available as a player but when the rubber meets the road the other things will move you along to get you where you want to go. Learning the modes was helpful on the understanding level but did nothing on the playing and improvising.
Always enjoy your point of view, playing and tips. The diplomacy you use is also masterful. Well done!
Peripheral…I see what you did there 🤣🎯
Ready for the courses!
Please continue with this in a series of videos. Well done.
I was taught by NY jazz guys and trying to learn the application of modes set me back for years. I could even spell out all the notes in the modes but using them in a solo was something I couldn’t do. The part that they didn’t tell me was that if you know your major scale shapes all over the neck, then you also know all of the shapes for your modes. You can pull chords from any key, without any rules - you don’t have to play the 1 chord.
Get Lucky is a great example, Bm, D, F#m, E. A lot of ppl would start by playing a Bm scale, but it’s actually in A major, it’s a 2 4 6 5. You don’t need to know my B Dorian all over the neck, just your A major
Good point. Yeah, I would chart that out as a 2- 4 6- 5 in A. And when coming up with a melody, I’d be thinking chord tones and seeing chord shapes on the neck, not just blowing the A major scale (or any of its modes).
Once again bowled over. Plain speaking with a clear message, backed up with great examples. Looking forward to the guitar courses.
Good advice. Love your melodies.
Great lesson and amazing guitar playing!
I think its more helpful to think of modes as maps. Lets say every key is a country, and every diatonic chord in that country is a city, and every tone is a street.
If we were to visit the 1 chord city, and we had chord tones as a guide, we would visit the 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th street. All fine places, everyone loves them, theyre safe and popular. But then we visit the 4 chord city, and we again get 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th street. If we didnt know any better, 1st city and 4th city were pretty samey.
But then we discover the modes map, and on it we see the 9th, 11th, and 13th streets (or 2nd 4th 6th) and we now see a #11th street on the 4 chord city which is not like any other 11th street in any chord city... in fact its the unique feature of that city! If we stuck with our chord tone guide, we wouldve missed out!
Tons more to discover with the modes maps, but in general we love 1st 3rd 5th and 7th streets for a reason, theyre the popular go to places. But if we are feeling adventurous, modes show us other places to explore :)
When I started playing bass I was going to show the bass world that I had arrived. I started to learn the more aggressive styles of bass, slap, tap and all that crap. One day I was listening to the bass hero de jour and realized that I didnt like that type of music in the least. I put on some Motown and joined an R&B band and never looked back.
Great video and great advice! And cool tele!
Again a fantastic episode - the way and attidtude you play is exactly my understanding of a nice guitar part. you always find melodies and "micro-hooks" - the listener can feel the passion and feeling you add onto a piece of music
Well said. I can't wait to learn more. Please keep me videos about this topic coming. And Happy Thanksgiving!
A useful way to think about modes is in terms of types of chord progressions (songs, and parts of songs)…
Ex if a song is in C and then the next chord is Bb, well, that’s probably C mixolydian, which means the chords are built from the parent scale of F major.
Modes are most usefully used to understand how music SOUNDS.
Dorian has a sound, mixolydian has a sound, etc
The example given in the video
(g, am, c, d) are all in the same parent scale (G major). They are all the same 7 notes
If however, the chords were Gm, C, Bb, C… then they all come from F major. So it’s G Dorian.
I don’t think of it as “scale patterns” …it’s more of what is the sound, what is the parent scale
What would you say is the parent scale to the 2nd chord progression? (G Bb Ebmaj7)
@@JustinOstrander
Well, there isn’t one for that one, it’s not diatonic. Modes are diatonic.
I wasn’t intending to be contrary
I really appreciate your reply, and love your channel. I was commenting bc understanding modes that way (and not as running patterns on the fretboard) was very useful to me in understanding how music “works”., particularly in the case of many common chord progressions. I don’t think anyone “needs” to know it, but it can demystify some elemental aspects.
Btw: I immediately made a loop of the G Bb Ebmaj7 after watching, and was enjoying playing over it (although without your excellent taste and touch)
Looking forward to a course!
This was great advice and rad playing. Thanks Justin!
I get what you’re saying and many agree. Try this, bpm 95. Play low E on the down beat( stay diatonic G major key) and play some G double stop eighth note country Lines for 2 measures, E note again, C double stops 2 more measures. Then play an open E minor chord. You just played G Ionian and C Lydian fingerings over E Aeolian. It didn’t have those modal sounds because the bass notes were missing but you were able to play some different things over E minor. You can swap any of the 7 modes as you get comfortable. I don’t use modes with their own bass notes. But melodic playing is definitely more fluid. Check it out. Enjoy your channel!
Another outstanding video. You are an amazing guitar player.
Such great information...
You're right, too ..
Happy Thanksgiving 🦃
I've surrounded myself with such great, talented players who make fretboard navigation look like breathing air, that I have often gotten hung up on the 'natural talent' arc.
I started when I was 18 and these guys started when they were single digits. Then they remind me that in 5 short years I went from cowboy chords to playing out live and recording in a legit, mid-level studio. This is probably more applicable to the follow up vid to this about natural ability vs practice but I am too lazy to cut and paste it.
Thanks for this. I ve been in a deep dive with the Greek word scales for a while now. This was a great reset of perspective and reminder on the priority of chord tones in what we all play.
Cheers!
Best and most practically helpful explanation on this topic I have seen to date
Creativity not math. Always felt that. Like my transition to DAW’s many years ago. You get a creative idea, boot up the DAW, 30 mins later you’re still playing with levels and plugins. Idea gone.
Hell yeah...that's what I'm talking about!...Love that freestyle
Great Playing as usual and I think you've made some excellent points! I know that this 'chord approach" for solos makes my students break out of their ruts and play more melodically and musically. Love this!
People think of modes all wrong. Someone once said to me Music doesnt describe theory, theory describes music. Perfect in modes discussion. I can create a melody with a tone center of G (key of G), but the melody has notes that arent in the Gmaj scale. and thats where modes come in. If my melody has the notes G - A - B - C - D - E - F, I would use G Mixolydian . Melody determines lead lines if youre playing melodically