Why I didn't choose the Tepeo ZEB over a Heat Pump
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- Опубліковано 4 лип 2024
- The Tepeo ZEB may be a good solution for some niche use cases.
They are not ready for the mainstream.
Compared to an air source heat pump, they are expensive to install and expensive to run.
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My system :
Vaillant Arotherm Plus 7kW
200L UniStor Cylinder
45L Buffer tank
140sqM Detached 1997 built house
10mm copper microbore pipework downstairs
Installed by British Gas in November 2023
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I’m in the middle of a diy heat-pump install. Yesterday I did my first big test, heating up a 600l buffer tank of water from 12C to 45C which requires 19.5kWh of heat. The heat pump, which I bought for £1200 off eBay, only used 7kWh of electricity. So on my very first test I got 280% efficiency.
Heat pumps are absolutely amazing.
That is awesome! What make and model of heat pump are you using?
@@UpsideDownFork it’s a Folansi FW-04 15kW unit. Just one note to anybody who uses a basic machine like this: The plate says it draws 3kW of electricity, but it actually spikes at 6.5kW as the compressor starts up, and runs at about 3.5kW, so I needed to put it on a 32A circuit even to test it.
Another thing I highly recommend to anyone trying to optimise their electricity usage is to use an Energia power monitor. It sits in my Consumer Unit with a CT clamp on each wiring circuit and lets me monitor the power used by each one second by second through an app on the phone. I can download a csv file with all the data for all the circuits and the total, even for our house which has a 3phase supply. It’s absolutely invaluable.
That sounds like a great diy project. Will be interested to see how it works out. Have you got a strategy to prevent legionella in such a big storage tank? EBay is a great resource for kit. I have just installed a Growatt battery system to my solar that I got on eBay for better than £2000 below online prices and it was only 18 months old. So far working a treat for the last week and I have only purchased 30p of electricity from the grid. 👍
@@tonyfrewin4822 I have 3 tanks in series, and the last one will be regularly heated with an immersion heater to over 60C to kill legionella, along with a flow/return pump to keep the pipework clear of legionella too.
The next steps are to integrate the big buffer of heat into the ch system, and then of course, to get the solar installed. I’m not sure whether to go with growatt or something else. So many choices to make!
@@dominicgoodwin1147 good luck with your project. Sounds like a great idea. The solar battery that I got was just a lucky search on eBay at the right time. Always a gamble but all works well so it payed off for me.
Full disclosure: I too have a ZEB. We use a myenergy Eddi (so off peak or solar) for the hot water tank.
Zeb installation was a lot less hassle than ashp. No new radiators. Same NEST controls. Systems down for one day.
Servicing is £10pm, so minimal in the big scheme of things.
No moving parts, no big metal box in the garden.
And for our five bedroom house the running costs are simar to gas (hard to say with accuracy as we've spent a lot on insulation since we disconnected gas).
Ashp woukd for sure cost less to run especially in deep winter, but for us ease of instal and that it "works like a gas boiler" as far as heating the house via hot radiators was key for us.
Ooooo, I really hoped we'd find someone with a ZEB!
Thanks for commenting.
Can I start with a couple of questions?
1. How big is your home?
2. Have you conducted a heat loss assessment?
3. Does the 40kWh see you through the coldest winter days without a peak time recharge?
4. Did you consider that a heat pump installed on your existing radiators and pipework would still achieve efficiency of 200-300%?
I'm sure i'll have plenty more questions!
@@UpsideDownFork Just accept that the heat pump is NOT the only option, and COP is not the sole consideration in choosing a heat system - the world will become a calmer place :) You don't need to justify to anyone but yourself
@@UpsideDownFork of course. 5 BR townhouse with loads of glass on the ground floor. (looks wonderful but not the best thermally obviously). Heat loss: yes. 40kwh. Not even close. BUT intelligent octopus and two EVs mean we get loads of "extra hours" at off peak rates. And yes we considered ASHP but we'd have had to change loads of internal stuff which was too much hassle. The cost of redecorating for example was significant. ZEB may not be cheapest to run, but that wasn't our objective. A simple plug and play to get off gas was. Missing accomplished (and the gas standing charge saved too).
@@dl393thanks for sharing 👍
This is great info for anyone considering following in your foot steps.
@@richardkeith2778the original video doesn't set out to say it's the only option. I accept there are niche use cases for it and reasons why people may prefer it.
Other technologies such as IR or A2A are also viable if they are well considered for their use cases.
The biggest concern facing heat pumps is that they are expensive to run. I hear that all the time. This video sets out to show that a heat pump is the cheapest way of heating a home using renewable energy.
For most people the running cost is a real concern.
For some people it won't be, that's fine.
I'm not anti ZEB, I'm anti gas boiler 😉
Great info on several subjects.
We fortunate enough to be in a (small) 4 bed detached house. Still on a gas combi, but with our mixer shower, and bath + central heating, we only spent £700 kast year including SC.
Ive done a lot of work with additional loft insulation, and it made a noticeable difference to comfort and bills.
Love the vids, but still not ready to consider a HP.
Also, the side of the house nearest the current boiler wouldn't have sufficient clearance, and im not having one bolted on to the back of our conservatory!
£700 is impressive. Good on you for taking positive steps forward insulating.
@@UpsideDownFork We do wash and shower I promise.
I also do allow heating;)
Very clear using your own figures. I looked into a SunAmp and the Fischer equivalent recently. Over £8K and that was just for the hot water! As you say great innovations but our existing housing stock needs more flexibility built in
The ASHP we have works very well and was cheaper to run than our previous LPG tank, where we cut back on heating, but now we heat the home all the time to arounf 19 degrees C, with a drop overnight of just 3 degrees C. I do think we must remember not everyone has room for one, but the DHW cylinder is something else to consider but I have seen HEat Geek have now worked out one that fits in a cupboard under under a counter. Other technologies may work better for other people, so I do think that more options of renewable and energy efficient heating systems that do not require burning anything!
The fact they cost more than a heat pump to install after grant, for what is effectively a resistive heater and a pile of bricks with a water pump a bit pricey and a max 100 percent efficiency kinda says it all.
Now if the were a couple of grand then maybe worth it
Could not have said it better.
This would be ideal for me but I am not going to pay 2-3 times the cost of an oil or gas boiler.
Rather telling that other than fully charged who presumably got given one there are barely any videos on UA-cam for them
You can just buy some really cheap 1500W electric heaters and only heat the room you are using at the moment instead.
Make sure the home is well insulated for the money you are saving and use the natural gas boiler for a low base temperature that prevents condensation.
The heat pump is an infinitely better idea if you are home a lot and if all of the rooms are used. this Remote Emission Boiler is just a stupid idea for any home.
Spoiler alert before the video was even released! 😂
Heat pumps are not a universal panacea. If there is significant re-plumbing of radiators in a beatifully decorated house, the fact that a ZEB plugs straight in may be a blessing. If you have a gas combi, the water tank costs will be the same regardless of which technology you use.
I also think heat pumps are damn ugly, and the optimal position for us would stick a carbuncle in our view of the garden, and for the matter of that, running costs are not the only motive - I spend more on my garden per year than I do on heating costs.
If you can get sufficient surplus PV, tarrifs are no longer an issue - if you can surplus 3mwh at 15p, and buy back your heating on tracker rates at 20p, your heating is only costing you 5ppkhw, which puts a ZEB on parity with gas, more or less ( Assuming 80% efficient combi) I believe ZEBs also work with PV to optimise charging.
Your comparison is a bit glib, and blinkered by your confirmation bias as you are pleased with your purchase, but yours is not the only solution !
You can also run a heat pump at a high temperature and achieve COPs of 2-3 instead of changing rads to achieve 4-5.
Whichever way you slice it, running costs of a heat pump will always be cheaper than the ZEB.
I get your point about garden positioning and admit that for most homes it is far from ideal, but in my own case I'd rather sacrifice that outdoor space than sacrifice indoor space for the ZEB.
Thanks for the comment.
IIRC Robert has a massive solar array (maybe 2 now, roof and ground mount) so I expect he is offsetting ZEB running costs with exporting the summer and the array covers some of his heating in shoulder seasons and winter?
I fully agree that anyone that could get an ASHP should over a ZEB. I didn't realise these were so expensive. You were also very kind to show their running costs on GO rates, that's not apples to apple but ASHP of course still won. My ASHP (soon to be installed) will be running on IOG and will wipe the floor with the direct electric heating it's replacing!
Let us know Tepeo's reaction 😂
Having a big solar array will not facilitate this kind of heating.
I have about 6.7 kWp of solar and a small (hybrid) heat pump, but even running at it's modest 1800W peak load to generate at most 6000W of heat in winter is simply not possible with this solar array on the days that it really needs to.
Now imagine the solar array you would need to consistantly supply 6000W in winter?
Robert is just too set on making everything electric that he is blinded by the problems this will cause if done incorrectly. COP1 heating should be limited to kitchen appliances.
I'd have to go back and find the video when Robert installed 3 phase and the second ground mount array but I think his solar system is up to 25ish kwp?
Full disclosure - I have a ZEB installed, and would be happy to answer any questions on its usage.
In terms of a direct comparison - I agree a heat pump would be the preferred technology - but for me, it wasn't viable with outside space, and availability (2 years ago).
On the plus side, the ZEB is a direct replacement for a Gas boiler, so the install was just over a day of work, and nothing needed to be changed to my existing system.
In terms of cost, I'm using less energy (gas vs Electricity), but of course much more than a Heat Pump. The cost difference gets offset though with the time of use tariff - I'm on Intelligent Octopus, so my cheap rate (7.5p) is less than a third of the standard rate (27p). So using off peak with the ZEB means it costs about a 1/3 of the standard price, vs a heat pump which will use about 1/3 - 1/4 of the energy (and therefore the cost). Totally agree that it would be better to use less energy, but on a cost basis, it's comparable.
Finally, I think this discussion would be different if both the ZEB and Heat Pumps (and other 'green' technologies) all benefited from grants.
Ooooo, I really hoped we'd find someone with a ZEB!
Thanks for commenting.
Can I start with a couple of questions?
1. How big is your home?
2. Have you conducted a heat loss assessment?
3. Does the 40kWh see you through the coldest winter days without a peak time recharge?
I'm sure i'll have plenty more questions!
@@UpsideDownFork No Problem!
1. 3 Bed Detached house - so probably about the right size for a ZEB
2. No - didn't get that far, and went with the approach if it being a straight swap for my old gas boiler.
3. Quick answer is No, but I only needed to charge the ZEB during the day on a handful of the coldest days last winter, and it is possible to time the boosts so that I can use my battery storage and any solar.
One point to make here is that these discussions are around the cost of running the ZEB. In itself, the ZEB is perfectly able to heat the house.
@@timmeadows6579 thanks for the reply.
Nothing can replace real world experience 👍
Could you share your calculation steps?
I would like to know how to backwards calculate what my ASHP running costs would be vs. My ZEB.
Does an ASHP do hot water and central heating?
Yes, it does hot water and central heating.
I presume you want to calculate these figures coming from a gas boiler?
Find your annual gas usage.
Multiply by 0.8 to account for inefficiencies.
This is how much heat has actually been delivered into the house, either for hot water or heating.
This is the amount of kWh a ZEB will need.
Multiply by the unit rate than you can get, i.e. x 0.09 and this will be your annual cost on a ZEB.
For a heat pump, go back a step and take the total annual kWh and divide that by 4 to guess at how many kWh a heat pump would need in a similar scenario.
Times that by the unit rate to calculate the running cost.
Hope that makes sense!
@@UpsideDownFork Thanks.
I did mean the direct comparison
ZEB v. ASHP
I can help as I'm not sure of the ASHP pricing but can share the ZEB running cost.
ZEB - 7,000kWh for 1 year.
£10/month - 10 year warranty + care
Gas (before ZEB) average: 6,500kWh
How much does the ASHP tend to use off-peak tariff?
Peak: 30p
Off-Peak: 7p
Could you run the ASHP during the off-peak period to the same effect?
@@JHBEM It's easy to load shift the hot water production to off peak, but space heating can only be load shifted to a certain degree, dependant on each home and it's insulation levels.
For the sake of simplicity you can make some assumptions.
Swap the tariff to something like Octopus tracker that gives a flat rate throughout the whole day. Average rate for last winter works out at 18p.
Let's assume a reasonably efficient heat pump installation, running at a COP of 4.
7000/4 = 1750kWh of electricity needed by the heat pump to produce the same heat output as the ZEB.
1750 x 0.18 = £315.
I don't know what tariff you're on to get the 7p off peak rate. That's better than Octopus Intelligent Go for example.
But assuming you got all 7000kWh off peak then it's 7000 x 0.07 = £490.
So in this scenario, the heat pump would save £175 per year in running costs. Half of that will probably be wiped out in the higher servicing costs for ASHP.
Other considerations, if you have enough home storage battery to only run from cheaper rate then the ASHP could cost as little as £122.5 for the year.
If you don't have home battery storage then by moving onto a tariff like Octopus Tracker, you will benefit from a much cheaper rate for all of your household consumption, not just heating. 30p vs 18p will make a good difference.
Then there's the variable of an EV. If you don't do that many miles then it's probably not worth optimising your home tariff to support cheap car charging, but if you do lots of miles then all of this discussion is probably a secondary consideration.
Good comparison, I think the only time this might make sense is if you already have a boiler and hot water tank and boiler and can’t install a heat pump. In the end it’s just a storage heater. Good point about district heating, for some reason the uk doesn’t seem to concise it at all.
At 40kwh storage it’s also not wildly cheaper then a 40kwh battery, which might be able to supply an instant hot water heater?
Great point that I didn't really touch on but you certainly could get 40kWh of battery installed for £8k if you happen to be a diligent deal hunter!
@@UpsideDownFork I think the ZEB has a 40 year life, a battery system is 10 - 12.
@@richardkeith2778 possibly.
The ZEB has a 10 year warranty.
Warranty period and actual useful lifespan are of course different on most products these days.
Most things we buy have a 1-3 year manufacturer warranty but we end up using most of those same things for 10-15 years.
I suspect home storage batteries will go for 30+ years no problem with very little degradation from the little data available for real world use over the long term.
But most home batteries can only out 3 or 5kw. That's not gonna heat much....
@@dl393 3 of those for £7.5k and you're already up to 46.5kWh.
They can also earn you a decent return throughout the non heating season via forced export.
www.fogstar.co.uk/products/fogstar-energy-15-5kwh-48v-battery?variant=41607893909563
Biggest nervousness I have around the heat pump is what are the subsidise likely to be to replace in 20 years time?
A hell of a lot can change in 20 years!
Nobody can predict the future or knows what the future holds.
Analysis paralysis is very mentally draining and counter productive.
I've missed out on many things in my life due to consternation and procrastination.
Live for today and do what pleases you NOW instead of continually analysing "what iffs".
In 20 years, and probably well before that, the price of heat pumps will be set by the open market rather than a market skewed by government carrots and sticks. Once the world's largest and most competitive gas boiler manufacturing industry fully commits to making heat pumps for the typical UK wet central heating systems prices will plummet.
Heat pump parts will cost less as production increases.
Much of the cost is also making the home ready for a heat pump with improved insulation, DHW storage, pipe work, power lines, bigger radiators and removing the gas boiler. None of this will be in the quote in 20 years, so you are just left with the cost of replacing a monoblock heat pump with all of the other stuff sorted already.
So getting a heat pump now is a good idea because of the subsidies. I wonder if a buying a gas boiler will be like wanting a coal burner for your home in 20 years time.
Several good points made in the comments here!
@@UpsideDownForkWorst case for replacement is that you end up with an 'okay' heat pump for not much money. Octopus, for one is a company producing heat pumps for not that much.
As a previous poster said, much of your investment is in design, better radiators and pipework, which shouldn't degrade too much over time.
To be eligible for agile tariff, you need to have solar PV export, I don't think you can get on that tariff only if you have a heat pump.
So to run your economics, you should compare a fix rate of 28p for the heat pump with a cheap night tarif of 7p for the zeb
That's not correct.
Anyone with a smart meter can have either agile or tracker tariffs.
But to get the off peak import rate lower than 9p you do need special equipment such as givenergy battery or zappi car charger for example.
I was being more than fair in the unit rate comparison.
I could easily show from my own data that the ZEB would need recharging at peak times throughout most of the winter for my own home. That would drag the average unit rate right up!
I'm on agile and don't have solar or battery, it's a better tariff than cosy in my opinion
Didn't know anything about the ZEB and it seems I don't need to. 😂
Did you think about replacement costs for your heat pump when it fails? I know we are all hoping for 15 years with no issues. But what if it dies just outside its warranty in 5 or 7 years or however long the warranty is? What's the replacement costs. Nobody seems to be making videos about it and it's a worry, for me at least.
We currently use 4274kWh of Gas for heating and hot water and 1288kWh of electric for a 2.5 bed town house (modern terraced house).
At the moment a large portion of the bill is standing charge so I think I could reduce this by getting rid of gas but I'm not sure a heat pump will save money. We currently both work 4 long shifts a week, so we don't have the heating on in the day (hour in the morning) and it turns on an hour (usually 7:15pm) for when we arrive home 8:15-8:30pm. Then we eat, watch some TV, shower and the heating goes off at 10:30pm. We are out much of the weekend so only one day a week is what most would call typical use. So why worry is having to run the heat pump for many hours to get some warmth into the house for when we get home. We are also on Agile so I would probably have to leave that if the heat pump is running at peak time.
So I'm thinking when the time comes I maybe better to just get a couple of A2A units and an immersion water tank and just heat it up when Agile is cheap either overnight or after lunch whichever is cheapest.
Does this seem like a sensible plan?
But if you are looking for video ideas a cost of replacement heat pump video would be appreciated. It might not be a positive one I guess and I don't want to be negative but it must be a worry for others, or maybe most haven't thought that far ahead.
For your home and your lifestyle it sounds like you are on the right track by considering A2A instead of A2W.
I've looked into replacement costs and at the moment they do appear to be almost double of an equivalent boiler.
I am hoping that tumbles with production scaling up.
Having chatted with a few engineers that have been fitting AC or A2A units for 20 or so years, they all seem to assure me that the big brands are easy to get replacement parts for and easy to work on if needed.
One engineer made the bold claim that these residential heat pumps will probably mostly be going on the original components in 20+ years.
Time will tell.
Oh my goodness, I hope the threatening letters were not from an infrared company. If it was i think we should know who because I dont want to use a company like that.
I think Robert Llewellyn had the Tepeo fitted as an experiment and you have to remember that he also has every other sustainable system installed from other generous companies. So his bills probably are not that bad, with loads of solar, battery storage, water storage system etc. I think he's probably ok plus his house is insulated to a great degree, i believe, so his losses will probably be minimal.
I do a agree though that a review of his systems would be great... not a promotion Robert, but a genuine review of which is effective and which is perhaps less so. What is the consumption of each of them for those of us with less or no solar?
Although the FCS and EES are built on advertising first and foremost now, I do think that Robert has done and is doing so much to effect change that if he needs advertising to pay for that, well fair enough. However I agree that transparency and follow up is lacking, which is a shame because I enjoy follow up programmes.
As for your heat pump journey I'm pleased that its working for you but I wish you could appreciate how difficult it is to contemplate for some people with the additional expensive and disruptive household changes required whilst living with chronic health problems. I cant be the only one with that scenario.
I also wish the government wasnt equally convinced that heat pumps are the be all and end all and would remove VAT from other sustainable methods of hot water and home heating. Maybe if we get more Greens in parliament we can effect more change more quickly.
Thanks for the comparison, I hope Tepeo exercise their right to reply politely and effectively and that you will publish their response accordingly.
Oh and a bog standard four bed detached house is an unattainable dream for many of us and so not bog standard at all! 😅👍
There has been several requests to know more about the threat from a certain IR company. Maybe i'll consider sharing something further about this.
@@UpsideDownFork I hope so because although I know we agreed to differ on certain things I don't want to give my custom to a company that issues threats.
I think you may have to explain to us exactly what has happened. 👍
Beautifully put, Jude !! I'm not keen on the hectoring tone used in the video - I know click bait is a thing, but all you need to say is that in your (upside downfork) circumstances the ZEB was not a contender, and these are the reasons why. There is absolutely no justification for implying the ZEB is not fit for purpose, it's just not fit for a young family in a modern 4 bed house, and your conclusions are just not relevant to so many of us.!
@@richardkeith2778 the title is "why I didn't chose the ZEB over a heat pump".
Apologies if my commentary became too general. I based it off my real world numbers for the exact reason you're talking about. I was trying to show why it wouldn't work for me. I guess I failed on this one if that's what you got from the video 🤔
@@UpsideDownForkI have to agree with @richardkeith2778 on that one. I realise now it is not your intention but by not considering other circumstances in your commentary, or rather by not repeatedly stating that only in your particular case does this product not work it does give the impression you are saying the product is a con... You may even have said that in the IR video, I can't remember now, nonetheless if the implication is there even if it's just in your tone of voice the makers of these products are going to get cross with you.
As we have said I do think you should try and consider those less fortunate than yourself whose circumstances are quite different from your own because regardless of the fact that you are recording your own experience it boils down to the fact that you are reviewing a product. Those of us watching a single video do not know your personal situation but if the first thing we see or hear is a harsh statement downplaying the efficacy of a product we may switch off. Moreover we may go away and repeat those claims thereby doing a disservice to the company. This is why they remonstrated with you but that is where they should have left it: threats are unacceptable, veiled or otherwise.
(I'm ex-sales, can you tell?! 😅)
If everyone had a ZEB or an EV to charge on the cheap rate it would be under serious pressure.
Eventually that may become an issue but not for a long time yet.
The grid at its peak for runs at about 90%, with most of it below 50% or even 20%. The actual total capacity of the grid is underutilized on an tremendous scale outside of peak. Your scenario that you paint is as useful as saying….if all natural gas ran out we would be cold.
The biggest problem with the Tepeo Zeb is the fact that it can only be installed by Tepeo's own team - I've been waiting 3 years for them to be able to do one in the North East of England!
That's probably a blessing in disguise.
@@UpsideDownFork Still not sure as it would be a simple and direct replacement for the gas boiler in our 3 year old new build. No need for any pipework, radiator or tank changes and I can charge it up for nothing from the solar. Like I said prob would have got one now...
@@edwardpickering9006 Have you had a survey conducted for a heat pump? Many new builds require little if any to work. Even if you don't want to make any changes to your existing system, a heat pump will still operate at twice the efficiency of a ZEB in the very worst case.
@UpsideDownFork Yes, Octopus want to rip out my perfectly good /new hot water tank and replace it a very similar one, then a load of extra D2 pipework despite the fact I've already got that and put a header in my loft... My point is that the Zeb would literally be a straight swap for my gas boiler and nothing else, if we run it mostly off the solar and off peak will be cheap, but totally get the efficiency point.
@@edwardpickering9006 Ouch, seems like Octopus may be a little OCD in your particular case. Maybe worth trying a local heatgeek?
I don't suppose you'd be willing to share the threatening email? I'm sure your viewers would be interested, I know I am!
I'll consider posting something more specific about the threat as it seems to be a popular request in the comments.
@@UpsideDownFork Please do share more info. I've promoted FIR panels on my channel a few times and concluded they are great as supplemental heaters but I wouldn't (and didn't) choose them for whole home heating. However I have noticed some border-line dubious marketing practises and misleading statements from a particular company over the last year. I would avoid promoting any company that utilities mis-information like that, but especially want to avoid any company making threats. If you do share the full details then great, but if you plan to keep certain details anonymous then it would be great if you could contact me privately please so as I can make sure I'm not seen to be endorsing companies undertaking such behaviour. Thanks! :)
@@SpeakToTheGeekTech It was Herschel. I'm not sure I want to share any more specifics. I just don't want the potential future hassle.
@@UpsideDownFork Thanks for confirming that
Zero emission boiler? What a scam. Remote emission boiler is a better description. A gas power plant runs about 60% efficient and even the best coal power plant struggles to reach 40% at optimal load, and that is before transmission losses. Even Nuclear is about 35% efficient at full load, so that is basically just 65% of direct global warming.
So if the only choice is between keeping your old gas boiler, which can get to about 80% and switching to a COP 1 heater like this ZEB, just put that money into insulation instead.
The grid is cleaning up at an impressive rate but you still make some good points, even if the grid mix number change from month to month.
Money spent on insulation is never money wasted.
I watched a video the other day with a heat pump being changed from oil and the comments was this is going to save the household a lot of money , I then had someone contact me saying he had oil in his house and changed to a heat pump and commented it’s the worse decision he had made because the heat pump is costing him much more money than the oil , my comment back to him was the information on the video I’ve just watched must be a lie then, I had a push back from the person who made the video saying it was probably due to lack of training within the industry so that person’s installation was probably not installed correctly but the industry is getting better, my reply was ok but the gentleman had his system changed and was living now with regret so how does a household know if they’re going to get a good or bad system = if we see 17 circulating pumps coming out of the installers van along with 8 vessel then we know we’re in trouble , so it’s a minefield then, I did ask why has nobody come up with a computer program be it for the industry or the householder where you input the house details room size etc as you do to calculate heat loss or sizes of radiators needed but would also tell you what size KW that’s needed along with other details such as vessel size circulation pump etc even a picture taken of the area where the hot water tank space that’s available and it would generate the ideal installation format, at least then in would take the guess work out for the installer and the industry, there’s plenty of programs to make it efficient when installed with adjustments one can make on the different displays for different temperatures etc yet all one would need with the same efficiency put into the actual installation. Yes I know many glasses of whiskey to get through this book.
That was hard to read, could I recommend a full stop or two
I think that Heat Geek have some software along these lines.
@@sygad1 Hard to read without whiskey?. Never been good knowing when and where comers or full stop fit , with a whiskey at hand doesn’t really matter. Apart from me missing far too many English lessons did you understand what I was clumsily trying to say ?.
@@user-ci4fy2um1q I don’t think he does , I do rate heat geek and the urban plumber but I have discussed these issues before, there seems to be a mindset that more training is needed with in the industry, as said if there was a fundamental one program that all installers could use it would take the guess work out of the installation, they have assorted displays on the finished installation in regards to getting the correct temperature and efficiency of the flow rate etc but nothing about the efficiency of the actual installation.
A good starting point is how much energy you currently use for heating and hot water - for example my house uses 7000 kWh of gas per year - on average.
@UpsideDownFork yes, just managed to spot your bias😅
Thanks for the info on high temp heat pumps, I believe that makes them more expensive to run but realise it's still a lot cheaper than the other methods. At risk of repeating myself, please excuse my ME/CFS afflicted brain if we've had this conversation already...
I am looking into the Aria hp because of their promise to look after it and you for the lifetime of the product with an extendable service warranty. I'm thinking if they are genuinely concerned with the happiness of their customers then my worries about not understanding the complexities of how to run it efficiently could be subdued.
It won't be long now before I can embark on my own household renewables journey and despite our differences I have genuinely found your videos and our subsequent discussions helpful and thought provoking.
I'm thinking then that perhaps it is the salesman in you that is the problem with your delivery. It's natural to you to promote the product which you prefer, you just need to pretend all the goods in the shop are for sale and to remember that by promoting one over the other you may be harming the sales of those with which you compare. As you say if they are that confident in their product threats should not be needed. H. were the first IR I saw with Robert I think and I remember a) thinking what a crock! and b) taking agin the smooth sales patter. I'd completely dismissed them until I found more and more videos from people with the whole house systems (not by Herschel) with controllers that I began to consider them again. I intend using a company owned and developed in Britain if I go that route, I want to be able to see the whites of their eyes if it turns out as badly as you suspect! As you can gather I am still undecided now that I've found Aria to investigate further.
Cheers, great chatting with you. 👍