@@exothermic1942 No, I mean that an IRL glowing saber would need different editing than the wooden blades used in the prequels, and that difference might be noticeable. An inconsistent blade look wouldn’t be very good…
@@exothermic1942Raytracing is used in threedimensional digital environments. In an animated series, sure. But for it to work in a live action series you'd need to map out the real location and create a digital counterpart and has to align exactly with the footage (wich is definitley anything but cheap) or you'd have to use AI for it. I don't really trust either of these options to look convincing. Besides, you can't create pixel information where there isn't one. If you shoot in the darkness, there will be some spots here and there that are (almost) completley black on camera. If you now use VFX to brighten it up the brighter parts may look good while the darker spots will stand out. There's just simply not enough info, no image that can be brightened. Unless, you use AI. But then again, does this really look good? Using VFX to add the lighting afterwards would be much more complicated and not as good looking. And it might be more expensive as well. Using real light up sabers is effecient and it looks much better and more realistic than anything VFX can do. Because it actually is real. I'll use light up sabers for my Star Wars project as well.
@@OutrunwhistleThe editing would remain the same, you can apply the exact same effects and animation methods to electronic and and nonelectronic blades. But the look might still be inconsistent, since the nonelectronic blade does not interact with it's surroundings. In very bright shots that doesn't really matter, you wouldn't really see much of the light anyways, but as soon as the blade is near the face in close up or as soon as the shot is a little darker, you'll beginn to notice the difference. I mean, you can apply additional VFX to make it look like the blade emits light onto the surrounging area but trust be, that is quite a pain, it doesn't look all too great and it can't be used in really dark shots without "cursing" the image.
The duel of the fates will forever be a legendary piece of cinematic history. The choreography, the music, the emotion is just all so well done and put together.
It’s the death of an era and a birth of a new one. The death of the man and the birth of the machine, the death of the Jedi and the birth of the sith. Starwars series has better choreographic fights but this one has the whole weight of the franchise.
lol, time is a funny thing. I’m old enough to remember the internet HATING on the prequel fights. That meme with Anakin and Obi Wan just randomly swinging their sabers still holds up.
No I don’t think the reason the battle got worse was due to the lightsabers I think the real reason is they didn’t get real fight choreographers to do the films.
Agreed. I remember an interview with JJ saying he wanted to get back to the OT’s visceral, grounded lightsaber fights & away from the cartoonish prequel fights. That mentality absolutely lead to underwhelming fights. I think this would also explain why, for all of its shortcomings & hate, the one part of the Acolyte most people seem to agree was great was the lightsaber fights. And you know what Acolyte had that the sequels didn’t? An emphasis on fight scene choreography
This person has never seen someone who actually has practice using a lightup saber. They can actually be pretty fast and do a lot of crazy moves. It's really just disney not wanting to spend money on choreography for the fights or giving the actors any or the minimal amount of training.
OH MY GOD YOU’RE RIGHT! I never had it worded to me like that but now that you mention it, that is another thing that’s detracted from lightsaber fights in the new movies. They’re not action scenes, they’re dramatic set pieces.
As awful as the Ahsoka show is, if you rewatch the part of the fight with Anakin, you can see that Hayden still absolutely has it. In a lot of these scenarios, it really is just that the actors weren't trained as well as the prequel actors.
Thank you! I guess this guy never held a lightsaber prop. Like my Neopixel lightsaber. The hilt is incredibly lightweight. Sure, the blade is heavy but during a fight you could just use and RGB blade with an adapter, problem solved. If this even is a problem to begin with. I feel like you could also use the blade's weight to your advantage.
As someone who fights with REAL full metal historical swords I promise you it is NOT the lightsabers causing these fights to be worse in every case it's simply that disney doesn't use trained actors or stunt actors actors anymore for lightsaber fights and the actors they do use have no actual experience stage fighting or real fighting. It is NOT the blades it's the user
bro there were no stunt actors in lightsaber fights at least when evan and hayden were on screen they just practiced 6h a day hayden literally said that
@@lorddemiurge3765 Christopher Lee was a Master Fencer, hell that fact is the reason why Dooku's Lightsaber was shaped the way it was so he could have an easier time doing his fight choreography.
Exactly! The props, if they are anything like the ones we can buy, are most likely just a bit heavier. And to some degree you can also increase the speed in post production a little bit. I just think the choreographies were just Disney's take on a more realistic approach. And I don't think they're bad at all, if you look at some battles in like Ahsoka real carefully you can clearly see that there is thought behind them. I think, one big reason many people dislike the newer duels, is just the fact that the ones we were used to before were so fast. But think of the choreo in Empire strikea back or Return of the Jedi, these battles are also slow but they still look phenomenal.
@@CraftMotionI feel like the original trilogy duels are still faster than the sequels to a small degree. I get them wanting to add more realism, but Sith and Jedi have superhuman speed and they precognition.
@@navarrjenkinz Well, I think that depends. The Sequel duels, yes maybe, but since then lightsaber fighting has improved. Ahsoka and Acolyte look much better than the Sequels, in my eyes. And yes, you're right, Jedi and Sith posess super powers. It makes sense to slow down duels if the writers feel a more grounded fighting style would fit the character better, like with Baylan Skoll who kinda fights like a medieval swordsman, or if a character is still unexperienced and needs to focus on rhe basic skills instead od fancy moves, like Luke or Rey or when characters don't really wanna hurt each other, like Kylo Ren who definitly could've killed Rey but never wanted to because she meant something to him (one if the few plot elemtents I really like with the Sequels) or Shin who could've killed Sabine but was ordered to hold back. With that in mind I have to say I really appreciated the speed of some if the Acolyte fights. Not as fast as the Prequels, but really good. But, either way, the Prequel fights are just top. Maybe they partially consist of pointless moves, like the Obi-Ani-Spin wich is also called the Senseless-Spin for a reason, but there's no arguing that they look like damn gods fighting!
nah it's just shitty technique. Longsword or heavy blade fighters can look cool. Even then, speed isn't everything, I like the heavier feel of the sabres, makes me think they have power behind each strike rather than just swinging a lightsaber around randomly.
Tbh i liked how much weightier Kylo’s lightsaber was, made it more intimidating. Also I just assumed Rey was slower due to her inexperience as a duelist.
One thing ill praise for sure is how kylo was presented He is an unstable, wrathful person and his lightsaber reflects that in every way The fiery blade, the weight behind has attacks, he moves almost like a dark souls boss sometimes
I believe in new canon they have stated that a saber can kinda fight you if you're inexperienced or not giving into the force or something and I like that readoning as well. I think Kanan may have said it in Rebels?
Yeah thats exactly it. And the fact that ren was never trying to kill Rey. Not once. But SW fans are genuinely too stupid to understand the difference between two padawan level fighters fighting and two of the top tier combatants of their time fighting.
@@kilerogoh no my movie about space wizards with glowing beam swords and mind magic has them flourishing when they’re fighting?!?!?! Immersion ruined!1!1!1😱😱😱
Having heavier sabers could also be considered as bringing the lightsaber combat closer to the original trilogy without fully losing the more martial arts aspect of the combat from the prequels
When it comes to the OT, the actors were directed to act as though the weapons were heavy so they sold the weight and momentum. Some influences were taken from samurai films and shows at the time too. More than anything though, if you were to watch the duel on Bespin, you would notice how well the action is used as a storytelling device, starting with slow pacing and tension and ending with Luke getting bullied as he tries to frantically fight back. I remember every beat because each one was meaningful.
@@camendiv There were also several different stuntman and swordsmen playing Vader in those shots. One who was a fencing expert, another a different sword style, one fall guy for Luke's kick, and David Prowse for character moments, etc.
This is exactly what they were going for. JJ made it very clear from interviews (and to be honest you can see it in near every other aspect of ep. 7) that their goal was to move away from the styles of the prequels & back to the OT
The sequels are meant to show how traditional lightsaber forms were lost after the destruction of the Jedi. The training required to wield lightsabers in that way is no longer available to current wielders of lightsabers.
The emotion in Obi-Wan vs Maul in the Phantom Menace just floors me everytime. The sheer anticipation from both combatants before the last laser gay opens which shows did their body movement of just jumping at the bit is perfect. Although the fight kind of ends on a lame note is still my favorite in the entire series. Probably has to do with the fact that I was like 4 years old when episode 1 came out in ruin the VHS copy of it watching it so many times so nostalgia is a pretty strong drug.
Also these sabers would also be far more expensive, and they’re need dozens of spares because they’d break easily. Whereas the old resin sabers were slightly more durable and considerably more cheaper.
Speed doesnt make a great fight scene. Nor does fancy choreography. Creating an emotional weight, and an incredible mood to the fight makes it amazing. I'd argue that one of the best lightsaber fights was Vader vs Luke in ROTJ. Very simple choreography. But the audience was riveted. The audience was entirely bought into the characters and their fates. We CARED. Connect that with a breathtaking music score and excellent writing, you take very basic choreography and create an unforgettable scene.
@@ericsmith4082 Yes but fast and fancy choreography can elevate that. The most well known Prequel fights had just as much emotional weight and I'd put them above any OT fight. The sequels and most of Disney Star Wars have none. We don't care for these characters and the choreography is neither fast or flashy
@@connorharnage6697 Agree on the fact that good choreography can elevate that, but it's not true we didn't care for the characters in the sequels, I did care for my boy Kylo xD
The realistic lighting has always given it a toy-vibe. A lightsaber is a magical artefact. It doesn't need realistic lighting. That's what gave all the other lightsaber fights that surreal vibe that makes Star Wars what it was.
@@rtixboi4193 I'm talking about the glow the Disney Star Wars lightsabers give off. The OT and prequels had sticks where the glow was added in post production. They had no glow themselves.
Speed isn't a problem. Original trilogy's fights aren't really fast-paced and are still better than most of Disney's Star Wars fights. Actors fighting with actual swords in medieval/fantasy movies never prevented awesome fights in those settings. The problem is bad corregraphies. Always has been. Always will be.
TBF fight in the force awakens is between a Sith who is holding back, and two people who have never wielded light sabers before so I can excuse the slow more methodical choreography. The rest of the fight are just kind of disappointing though
George for the og trilliog wanted luke to handle the saber like it was a knights sword and like it had weight behind it. Whilst this was droped for the sequals, how disney lightsabers act is in line with the og trilogy
He dropped the whole “lightsabers are heavy” idea for the prequels to show how much more trained the Jedi were at the time. It was to show how different the times were
I’m not defending Disney…but to make it make sense in my head, I came up with the fact that none of the people in the prequels besides Kylo were actually trained how to wield a lightsaber properly. And even then Kylo was trained by Luke who had minimal saber training from Obi Wan at best.
Like was actually quite well trained in saber combat and he only got better in the EU, combining the existing seven forms into three styles, light, medium and heavy. But this is Disney Star Wars so Luke can't be competent
@@connorharnage6697 ... I mean, you aren't wrong about Disney making some questionable choices, but also saying "Oh, Luke single handedly made better dueling styles than all prior styles, somehow including the one that was intentionally designed to channel the Dark Side" isn't inherently a great change. And honestly, I kinda agree with the idea that the best read for the Sequels is that Kylo was not as well trained in lightsaber combat as prior combatants, but would add the asterisk that this was partially due to incomplete training, and what training he *had* underwent having a greater emphasis on Force abilities. I doubt Disney actually uses that lore for it in their comics, especially because the latter two movies of their sequel trilogy are desperately trying to convince you that Kylo and Rey are actually skilled at lightsaber combat despite using bad choreography to do so, but they *should* use that logic since it actually makes sense without weakening any characters narratively more than they already were.
@@rtixboi4193 Okay, let me explain better. I'm saying for once Disney *not* doing that makes more sense than them doing that, because Luke was not given some great, in depth dueling training relative to prior Jedi. Him being worse at dueling because he has lost most of the knowledge used to create the old lightsaber forms would make more sense, ergo making it make an equal amount of sense that Kylo would be a worse duelist even ignoring the fact his training was incomplete. The issue I then pointed out is I don't think Disney has the guts to actually admit that a character is bad at something that is one of the primary things they do.
But I like how there’s weight to it. More realistic imo. Sure the older fights were cooler and more fast paced, but a the new fights, u can see the weight of each lightsaber, and how they stagger a little when blocking an oncoming hit, which is pretty cool
@@theantagonist801 if so, it’ll be more like a flashlight and everyone would be fighting in a totally different way. The fact that Maul manoeuvres through the air or how any lightsaber wielder twist their body to strike, shows that there is weight. If not they all would just stick their hand out, and just shake their hand and pray for the saber to hit
@@darthdart3360 yeah basically it'd be more like a flashlight. The only reason it isn't is for two reasons: 1. Space Opera, and 2. It wouldn't look as cool
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I've always seen Star Wars as science fantasy rather than science fiction. I much prefer the lightsabers having weight in the blade and behaving like metal swords rather than trying to figure out how a sword made of light should move. They ARE swords, so they behave like swords, which keeps things grounded.
Lightsabers have always had weight to them. In the lore they are more like chainsaws that move so fast they look like a beam of light and act like a normal sword.
I don't know man, I've seen what random peeps can do with those toy sabers and weight is not holding them back. I would say it's the fact Disney didn't bring good choreographers and the cast didn't train enough. Practice makes perfect.
I liked the lighting at first, but not anymore. It's so strong, you lose any lighting in the scene other than blue or red. It gets so dark, you can barely see anything. The necessary lighting for the cool meaningful shots could be added in post and the rest could be clear to see as it used to be.
Lightsabers are meant to be heavy. George Lucas said so while making the original films. They’re meant to be slow and cumbersome, which is why Jedi with the force and training can use them like they do. THAT’S why the fights in the prequels are how they are, it’s the Jedi at their height. Lmao. For a Star Wars channel, you seem to have misunderstood Star Wars.
You know the OT lightsabers were the heaviest of all the sabers. Yet they still had the best fights of any of the movies. It’s because they had an actual sword fighter as a choreographer. This video is 100% bait and this guy clearly has never used a sword in his life.
Call me crazy but I also HATE the "realistic lighting" they're going for. It's usually way too dark for me to see anything and the only light is the lightsaber and its like... dude.
Of course you’re entitled to your opinion/preference but this was a factual based discussion. To many, the fights don’t even compare to the prequels because it’s not proper technique. It’s just swinging like they’re literally swinging bats and not actual sword fighting.
@@randalthekidd7006it never used to be because the prequel lightsaber fights are objectively over-choreographed and stupid looking, and the whole point of making them heavier in the sequels was to make them feel more dramatic like in the original trilogy… but now I guess there are people who like the prequel fights and want to defend them(?) so idunno. It’s all stupid.
Sure they're a little heavier (although I have to say the Acolyte sabers are extra thick on purpose while the other hilts still have good to original proportions) but they just look soo much better. Shooting scenes with a lightsaber and adding the lughting afterwards digitally (or not at all) might have been enough 'til 2005 but nowadays it's just not good enough anymore. Besides, The Clone Wars had the blades emit actual light, wich was the first piece of Star Wars media that constantly did that. Sure, it's a lot easier when everything is CGI, still, you can't come back into live action after years of animation and say "Hey, you know this cool effect where lightsabers are actually illiminating the environment? Well, scratch that." Besides, it's all a matter of technique sometimes. Just look at all of these professional lightsaber stunt fighters, some of them even trained by Nick Gillard himself. They're using electronic lightsabers and they're super fast as well. Granted, their sabers use a minimum of electronics and the blade is baselit, not as heavy as an electronic blade but you get my point.
What I have noticed is they don’t bother to rotoscope the sabers anymore. They let the light from the toy saber represent the blade, and when it moves really fast it doesn’t have the same brightness, making it look like a home video, and makes the light sabers feel less powerful.
@@mreggs3731I hate the sequel’s as much as the next guy but no the original 3 movies(arguments could be made for return of the Jedi) had slower fights
The original trilogy had slow-pwced combat, not slow fighting. The strikes themselves were quick even if the pacing of the combat was slower and closer to kendo than to the modern stage-dueling they use today. The problem with the modern fighting is that the heavier weapons leads to slower swings and clumsier fighting. My fellow son of Odin, please tell me you understand the difference.
Star Wars fans really complain about everything. Did you forget that the Luke/Vader fights were also pretty slow? Also Jedi in the prequels had a lot more training than Rey and Kylo could've had. You already complained that Rey was too powerful and now you're saying that she should have been faster??
i actually really like the weight and choreography of the sequel sabers cause it feels not only more like the originals but like a genuine fight and not a “mark one, mark two” dance where the actors only hit the blades
Well I mean I literally come from another short where George is talking about how the lightsabers originally used to be heavy, some bullshit about "the weight of the energy" so tbh we're really just going full circle and utilizing some more upscaled tech to do so.
im convinced Dinsey is the real life Empire counterpart. "They take something you love, turn it into something you can't stand the sight of" Bode Akuna
But isn’t it more realistic to what a lightsaber is? Aren’t lightsabers actually pretty heavy Sabine talks about hers being very heavy idk maybe I’m yapping
That is in NO WAY why the fights may have gotten worse. It was poor choreography and poorly conceived narratives to build to the fights due to them rushing the content out
Ive seen this take a lot but I kind of liked the weight in the sequel fight scenes, especially those with Kylo, it conveyed a sense of direct, overwhelming force that fit his character better than the prequel fights would have.
Ive actually enjoyed how they have keyed things up in the acolyte. I think Disney is learning how to do lightsabers slowly but surely. I also enjoyed how theyve been leaning a bit more into a crouching tiger hidden dragon esc movement system to show the superhuman ability of the jedi. I hope they can do more of it for sure.
"Just making a swordfight faster doesn't make it better" - Bob Anderson, sword choreographer for Pirates of the Caribbean, Lord of the Rings, and the original trilogy
I think having the lightsabers illuminate the face with practical effects does have its own merits. Like when obi wan and vader faced off during the obi wan show, having the red and blue was epically dramatic
Adam driver really took the cross hilt lightsaber and made it his. He really moved well with it, you could tell he was passionate about being Kylo Ren.
When the prequel came out, everyone complained about how fast the fight scenes were. Here we are again I guess, can’t wait for these movies to be considered cinematic gold in the next 10 years
I have never loved the super fast constantly spinning style of the prequel fighting, vs the more fencing/deuling styke of the og trilogy and the sequels.
What I’d do: The light prequel sabers for duelling. The newer sabers for scenes a lightsaber is only used a little bit (maybe just a simple ignition, or perhaps an execution).
The difference in weight would be soo small that is not the reason they fight scenes suck now lol it’s just badly choreographed compared to the older ones
we have great led lightsabers with thin hilts and blades. disney can use better lightsabers but they want to use the same molds and machines for their chinsey disneyland sabers. i have one thats the same size as obi wans ep1 saber and has an active battery life of 6 hours and an inactive life of so far 6 months with in hilt leds constantly blinking. they can do better
![All Lightsaber Duels In Star Wars [UPDATED 2022]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8TqfOYYOWAE/mqdefault.jpg)
They should switch to the illum sabers for cinematic shots not the actual fight
If it really looks that different IRL, people might notice the difference in the final cut
@@Outrunwhistle thing is it'd be pretty simple to recreate with VFX using ray tracing, this would cut down on costs and would look pretty good too
@@exothermic1942 No, I mean that an IRL glowing saber would need different editing than the wooden blades used in the prequels, and that difference might be noticeable. An inconsistent blade look wouldn’t be very good…
@@exothermic1942Raytracing is used in threedimensional digital environments. In an animated series, sure. But for it to work in a live action series you'd need to map out the real location and create a digital counterpart and has to align exactly with the footage (wich is definitley anything but cheap) or you'd have to use AI for it. I don't really trust either of these options to look convincing.
Besides, you can't create pixel information where there isn't one. If you shoot in the darkness, there will be some spots here and there that are (almost) completley black on camera. If you now use VFX to brighten it up the brighter parts may look good while the darker spots will stand out. There's just simply not enough info, no image that can be brightened. Unless, you use AI. But then again, does this really look good?
Using VFX to add the lighting afterwards would be much more complicated and not as good looking. And it might be more expensive as well. Using real light up sabers is effecient and it looks much better and more realistic than anything VFX can do. Because it actually is real.
I'll use light up sabers for my Star Wars project as well.
@@OutrunwhistleThe editing would remain the same, you can apply the exact same effects and animation methods to electronic and and nonelectronic blades. But the look might still be inconsistent, since the nonelectronic blade does not interact with it's surroundings. In very bright shots that doesn't really matter, you wouldn't really see much of the light anyways, but as soon as the blade is near the face in close up or as soon as the shot is a little darker, you'll beginn to notice the difference.
I mean, you can apply additional VFX to make it look like the blade emits light onto the surrounging area but trust be, that is quite a pain, it doesn't look all too great and it can't be used in really dark shots without "cursing" the image.
The duel of the fates will forever be a legendary piece of cinematic history. The choreography, the music, the emotion is just all so well done and put together.
It’s the death of an era and a birth of a new one. The death of the man and the birth of the machine, the death of the Jedi and the birth of the sith. Starwars series has better choreographic fights but this one has the whole weight of the franchise.
Battle of the heroes (Mustafar battle):
*Allow me to introduce myself.*
lol, time is a funny thing. I’m old enough to remember the internet HATING on the prequel fights.
That meme with Anakin and Obi Wan just randomly swinging their sabers still holds up.
@@stevenlewis2997 it was probably to try and make one back off,but they pulled the same move
No the reason the whole series got shit is because Disney loves ruining everything
No I don’t think the reason the battle got worse was due to the lightsabers I think the real reason is they didn’t get real fight choreographers to do the films.
But today everyone is an expert, just post your video online and you have graduated and now a reputable source of information
And also the prequel actors trained for far longer
Agreed. I remember an interview with JJ saying he wanted to get back to the OT’s visceral, grounded lightsaber fights & away from the cartoonish prequel fights. That mentality absolutely lead to underwhelming fights.
I think this would also explain why, for all of its shortcomings & hate, the one part of the Acolyte most people seem to agree was great was the lightsaber fights. And you know what Acolyte had that the sequels didn’t? An emphasis on fight scene choreography
Bring back Nick!
@@junolee8955 as a Nicholas of the Council of Nicolai I concur!
This person has never seen someone who actually has practice using a lightup saber. They can actually be pretty fast and do a lot of crazy moves. It's really just disney not wanting to spend money on choreography for the fights or giving the actors any or the minimal amount of training.
That and if they go too fast, they could risk breaking the saber too
Also because prequel fights are just flippy bullshit that only children and idiots like.
@@snowgrave2475 Because they'd clumsly strike too hardM _Sooo, lack of good coreographers still._
@@MrDibara fair, it's just an extra reason
They can't spend 50k on a settlement with a man over killing his wife, so of course they can't hire someone to choreograph.
It also makes night areas, dark hallways, shadowy forests and sunless planets the only settings for a lightsaber battle nowadays.
OH MY GOD YOU’RE RIGHT! I never had it worded to me like that but now that you mention it, that is another thing that’s detracted from lightsaber fights in the new movies. They’re not action scenes, they’re dramatic set pieces.
What?
As awful as the Ahsoka show is, if you rewatch the part of the fight with Anakin, you can see that Hayden still absolutely has it. In a lot of these scenarios, it really is just that the actors weren't trained as well as the prequel actors.
Damn straight.
Hayden is gonna keep those skills until he dies,he was an absolute legend
I mean yeah, dude had to slow down just so that rosario dawson could keep up.
hell yeah
@@matthewchen3678 well he had 2 decades of lightsaber training versus Dawson who was learning specificallly for this show.
As saberfighter I can say, that glowing sabers aren't that heavy. We can swing them faster than anything in movie battles
Thank you! I guess this guy never held a lightsaber prop. Like my Neopixel lightsaber. The hilt is incredibly lightweight. Sure, the blade is heavy but during a fight you could just use and RGB blade with an adapter, problem solved. If this even is a problem to begin with. I feel like you could also use the blade's weight to your advantage.
How well do the sabers you guys use hold up while sparing?
@@buffalowt What do you mean with sparing?
@@CraftMotion People do fight with prop blades, there are clubs for it.
It's just that the actors they suck at using swords and they each have to compensate each other
As someone who fights with REAL full metal historical swords I promise you it is NOT the lightsabers causing these fights to be worse in every case it's simply that disney doesn't use trained actors or stunt actors actors anymore for lightsaber fights and the actors they do use have no actual experience stage fighting or real fighting. It is NOT the blades it's the user
You do not fight with real swords smfh get your weaboo as outta here
@rocknroll1973 no that's not true in fact almost all of dookus fights were not done by Christopher Lee but by his stunt double
bro there were no stunt actors in lightsaber fights at least when evan and hayden were on screen they just practiced 6h a day hayden literally said that
is bro starting a crusade
@@lorddemiurge3765 Christopher Lee was a Master Fencer, hell that fact is the reason why Dooku's Lightsaber was shaped the way it was so he could have an easier time doing his fight choreography.
People make duel videos with those sabers all the time, yet the choreography doesn't suffer
They’re not the same models and usually they’re made with CGI
Easy solution, record the scene with the light weight sabers and then do it again with the light up ones so the cgi artists have a reference
Imma be honest, I don’t think that’s the soul reason the duel scenes were bad in the sequels. I think it was just poor and boring choreography.
Thank you. Nothing to do with the prop. The choreo was just awful.
Exactly! The props, if they are anything like the ones we can buy, are most likely just a bit heavier. And to some degree you can also increase the speed in post production a little bit. I just think the choreographies were just Disney's take on a more realistic approach. And I don't think they're bad at all, if you look at some battles in like Ahsoka real carefully you can clearly see that there is thought behind them. I think, one big reason many people dislike the newer duels, is just the fact that the ones we were used to before were so fast. But think of the choreo in Empire strikea back or Return of the Jedi, these battles are also slow but they still look phenomenal.
@@CraftMotionI feel like the original trilogy duels are still faster than the sequels to a small degree. I get them wanting to add more realism, but Sith and Jedi have superhuman speed and they precognition.
@@navarrjenkinz Well, I think that depends. The Sequel duels, yes maybe, but since then lightsaber fighting has improved. Ahsoka and Acolyte look much better than the Sequels, in my eyes.
And yes, you're right, Jedi and Sith posess super powers. It makes sense to slow down duels if the writers feel a more grounded fighting style would fit the character better, like with Baylan Skoll who kinda fights like a medieval swordsman, or if a character is still unexperienced and needs to focus on rhe basic skills instead od fancy moves, like Luke or Rey or when characters don't really wanna hurt each other, like Kylo Ren who definitly could've killed Rey but never wanted to because she meant something to him (one if the few plot elemtents I really like with the Sequels) or Shin who could've killed Sabine but was ordered to hold back.
With that in mind I have to say I really appreciated the speed of some if the Acolyte fights. Not as fast as the Prequels, but really good.
But, either way, the Prequel fights are just top. Maybe they partially consist of pointless moves, like the Obi-Ani-Spin wich is also called the Senseless-Spin for a reason, but there's no arguing that they look like damn gods fighting!
Definitely poor choreography.
Now they handle them like baseball bats, good one disney
That's what they were created originally for. To "bat " at the opponent like a bamboo katana.
nah it's just shitty technique. Longsword or heavy blade fighters can look cool. Even then, speed isn't everything, I like the heavier feel of the sabres, makes me think they have power behind each strike rather than just swinging a lightsaber around randomly.
But it isn't meant to have "power" in their swings, It's a "light" saber for a reason @@tfw8738
@@tfw8738its only randomly if you're stupid and ignorant🤷🏽♂️
You mean like actual swords, like in the original movies we're Jedi weren't ninjas doing 30 backflips?
Tbh i liked how much weightier Kylo’s lightsaber was, made it more intimidating. Also I just assumed Rey was slower due to her inexperience as a duelist.
One thing ill praise for sure is how kylo was presented
He is an unstable, wrathful person and his lightsaber reflects that in every way
The fiery blade, the weight behind has attacks, he moves almost like a dark souls boss sometimes
I believe in new canon they have stated that a saber can kinda fight you if you're inexperienced or not giving into the force or something and I like that readoning as well. I think Kanan may have said it in Rebels?
See, that's a fair assumption about Rey... at first.
@@Topidoitand by Mando and the Armourer in TBoB
Yeah thats exactly it. And the fact that ren was never trying to kill Rey. Not once.
But SW fans are genuinely too stupid to understand the difference between two padawan level fighters fighting and two of the top tier combatants of their time fighting.
Prequel fights were the peak of lightsaber combat choreography
Prequel Fights: Peak Choreography.
Also Prequel Fights: Random twirling and flailing.
Too bad everything else other than Ewin was terrible
They were horrendous lol
Nostalgia is a powerful thing indeed
@@haanoondid we watch the same duel of the fates?!
@@kilerogoh no my movie about space wizards with glowing beam swords and mind magic has them flourishing when they’re fighting?!?!?! Immersion ruined!1!1!1😱😱😱
The Acolyte gave us the best lightsaber duel since the last lightsaber duel
No
The fights were really nice, nothing to complain, the story tho….
The choreography in The Acolyte was amazing. It's just everything else that sucked.
Perfect chance for a producer to step in and say
“ if it aighnt broke, stop trying to fix it “
anyone that thinks the prequels weren't broke are deeply confused.
Having heavier sabers could also be considered as bringing the lightsaber combat closer to the original trilogy without fully losing the more martial arts aspect of the combat from the prequels
When it comes to the OT, the actors were directed to act as though the weapons were heavy so they sold the weight and momentum. Some influences were taken from samurai films and shows at the time too. More than anything though, if you were to watch the duel on Bespin, you would notice how well the action is used as a storytelling device, starting with slow pacing and tension and ending with Luke getting bullied as he tries to frantically fight back. I remember every beat because each one was meaningful.
@@camendivthere was that awkward ass spin from Luke tho.
@@andrewli6606 Inexperienced fencing looks awkward lol.
@@camendiv There were also several different stuntman and swordsmen playing Vader in those shots. One who was a fencing expert, another a different sword style, one fall guy for Luke's kick, and David Prowse for character moments, etc.
This is exactly what they were going for. JJ made it very clear from interviews (and to be honest you can see it in near every other aspect of ep. 7) that their goal was to move away from the styles of the prequels & back to the OT
I think the fight scenes in acolyte was by far the coolest part
Qimir vs Jecki was the best New Gen lightsaber duel
@@InosukeHashibira-kw5ri facts
The sequels are meant to show how traditional lightsaber forms were lost after the destruction of the Jedi. The training required to wield lightsabers in that way is no longer available to current wielders of lightsabers.
The emotion in Obi-Wan vs Maul in the Phantom Menace just floors me everytime. The sheer anticipation from both combatants before the last laser gay opens which shows did their body movement of just jumping at the bit is perfect. Although the fight kind of ends on a lame note is still my favorite in the entire series. Probably has to do with the fact that I was like 4 years old when episode 1 came out in ruin the VHS copy of it watching it so many times so nostalgia is a pretty strong drug.
It’s crazy how lightsabers where better back when anakin blew up the Death Star than now 😢
Anakin didn’t blow up the Death Star lol.
@@austingreen1274one of the actors for the acolyte show mistakenly said Anakin blew up the death Star. That comment was a reference to that moment
@@friendlyneighborhooddork5204or that is the actor that made that comment
@@friendlyneighborhooddork5204Aw man.
No Luke Skywalker blow up the death Star that's his son
The worst part of the new sabers is the rebound when they hit one another. It’s so visible in all the scenes
I don't hate it, I think it makes the energy look super powerful.
The same rebound that existed in Return of the Jedi, and should have never been taken out.
Acolyte had some really cool fight scenes in it frfr
Yeah it was awesome mixed with the force-martial arts
Only good thing about the show.
@@TrueNorth1217 from a certain point of view 😉
@@TrueNorth1217atleast we got to see Palp's master Hego Damask II in the cave hiding his identity
No not really, it was not really boring but they did dumb shit like random spins and stuff that would just get you killed normally
The light saber duels in the prequels felt like dances than actual fights
Also these sabers would also be far more expensive, and they’re need dozens of spares because they’d break easily.
Whereas the old resin sabers were slightly more durable and considerably more cheaper.
it's funny how not having realistic lightning has never shocked me... but having grandmother fights does !
Speed doesnt make a great fight scene. Nor does fancy choreography.
Creating an emotional weight, and an incredible mood to the fight makes it amazing.
I'd argue that one of the best lightsaber fights was Vader vs Luke in ROTJ. Very simple choreography. But the audience was riveted. The audience was entirely bought into the characters and their fates. We CARED. Connect that with a breathtaking music score and excellent writing, you take very basic choreography and create an unforgettable scene.
@@ericsmith4082 Yes but fast and fancy choreography can elevate that. The most well known Prequel fights had just as much emotional weight and I'd put them above any OT fight. The sequels and most of Disney Star Wars have none. We don't care for these characters and the choreography is neither fast or flashy
@@connorharnage6697 Agree on the fact that good choreography can elevate that, but it's not true we didn't care for the characters in the sequels, I did care for my boy Kylo xD
@@MattheWolf969 Yeah tbh I think Kylo is the only exception tho. I personally didn't care for Rey or Finn
Agreed
I hate Lightsaber fights were Jedi spin their Lightsabers 300 times for no reason with no dialogue or emotional weight.
😮 imagine disney star wars movies with prequel level fightscenes
Then they would actually be somewhat good
The fights are the least of these movies' issues.
imagine them with better writing
Then we'd have terrible movies with good fight scenes in it
@@pedroadonishyou mean like episodes 1 and 2
The realistic lighting has always given it a toy-vibe. A lightsaber is a magical artefact. It doesn't need realistic lighting. That's what gave all the other lightsaber fights that surreal vibe that makes Star Wars what it was.
What are you talking about?
@@rtixboi4193 I'm talking about the glow the Disney Star Wars lightsabers give off. The OT and prequels had sticks where the glow was added in post production. They had no glow themselves.
Speed isn't a problem. Original trilogy's fights aren't really fast-paced and are still better than most of Disney's Star Wars fights. Actors fighting with actual swords in medieval/fantasy movies never prevented awesome fights in those settings.
The problem is bad corregraphies. Always has been. Always will be.
Prequel fights are GOATED
TBF fight in the force awakens is between a Sith who is holding back, and two people who have never wielded light sabers before so I can excuse the slow more methodical choreography. The rest of the fight are just kind of disappointing though
A darksider, not sith
Ah finally someone who realizes Ben was holding back. So many people ignore this just because they want to complain
@@crplegokid1268and shot in the gut with a weapon that was shown blasting people back a few feet
@@osets2117 true but people still ignore that to insult Rey. Thanks for pointing that out
my god a reasonable take on a Disney star wars movie?
George for the og trilliog wanted luke to handle the saber like it was a knights sword and like it had weight behind it. Whilst this was droped for the sequals, how disney lightsabers act is in line with the og trilogy
He dropped the whole “lightsabers are heavy” idea for the prequels to show how much more trained the Jedi were at the time. It was to show how different the times were
That's probably why they're less effective weapons
I remember a time when the prequel fighting was heavily criticized for being overly choreographed like it was a dance instead of a fight
I’m not defending Disney…but to make it make sense in my head, I came up with the fact that none of the people in the prequels besides Kylo were actually trained how to wield a lightsaber properly. And even then Kylo was trained by Luke who had minimal saber training from Obi Wan at best.
you mean sequels??
Like was actually quite well trained in saber combat and he only got better in the EU, combining the existing seven forms into three styles, light, medium and heavy. But this is Disney Star Wars so Luke can't be competent
@@connorharnage6697 ... I mean, you aren't wrong about Disney making some questionable choices, but also saying "Oh, Luke single handedly made better dueling styles than all prior styles, somehow including the one that was intentionally designed to channel the Dark Side" isn't inherently a great change. And honestly, I kinda agree with the idea that the best read for the Sequels is that Kylo was not as well trained in lightsaber combat as prior combatants, but would add the asterisk that this was partially due to incomplete training, and what training he *had* underwent having a greater emphasis on Force abilities. I doubt Disney actually uses that lore for it in their comics, especially because the latter two movies of their sequel trilogy are desperately trying to convince you that Kylo and Rey are actually skilled at lightsaber combat despite using bad choreography to do so, but they *should* use that logic since it actually makes sense without weakening any characters narratively more than they already were.
@@theendersmirk5851This “change” that Luke made has existed for 30 years
@@rtixboi4193 Okay, let me explain better. I'm saying for once Disney *not* doing that makes more sense than them doing that, because Luke was not given some great, in depth dueling training relative to prior Jedi. Him being worse at dueling because he has lost most of the knowledge used to create the old lightsaber forms would make more sense, ergo making it make an equal amount of sense that Kylo would be a worse duelist even ignoring the fact his training was incomplete. The issue I then pointed out is I don't think Disney has the guts to actually admit that a character is bad at something that is one of the primary things they do.
But I like how there’s weight to it. More realistic imo. Sure the older fights were cooler and more fast paced, but a the new fights, u can see the weight of each lightsaber, and how they stagger a little when blocking an oncoming hit, which is pretty cool
Two weapons using lasers as their blades would not have much weight, if any at all.
@@theantagonist801 if so, it’ll be more like a flashlight and everyone would be fighting in a totally different way. The fact that Maul manoeuvres through the air or how any lightsaber wielder twist their body to strike, shows that there is weight. If not they all would just stick their hand out, and just shake their hand and pray for the saber to hit
@@darthdart3360 yeah basically it'd be more like a flashlight. The only reason it isn't is for two reasons: 1. Space Opera, and 2. It wouldn't look as cool
@@theantagonist801 two blade hilts having to produce plasma in a stable manner is gonna be heavy.
@@sovietmoose5624 Ok
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I've always seen Star Wars as science fantasy rather than science fiction. I much prefer the lightsabers having weight in the blade and behaving like metal swords rather than trying to figure out how a sword made of light should move. They ARE swords, so they behave like swords, which keeps things grounded.
Lightsabers have always had weight to them. In the lore they are more like chainsaws that move so fast they look like a beam of light and act like a normal sword.
They are superheated coils, so they are actually blades
I don't know man, I've seen what random peeps can do with those toy sabers and weight is not holding them back. I would say it's the fact Disney didn't bring good choreographers and the cast didn't train enough. Practice makes perfect.
I liked the lighting at first, but not anymore. It's so strong, you lose any lighting in the scene other than blue or red. It gets so dark, you can barely see anything. The necessary lighting for the cool meaningful shots could be added in post and the rest could be clear to see as it used to be.
Lightsabers are meant to be heavy. George Lucas said so while making the original films. They’re meant to be slow and cumbersome, which is why Jedi with the force and training can use them like they do. THAT’S why the fights in the prequels are how they are, it’s the Jedi at their height. Lmao. For a Star Wars channel, you seem to have misunderstood Star Wars.
You know the OT lightsabers were the heaviest of all the sabers. Yet they still had the best fights of any of the movies. It’s because they had an actual sword fighter as a choreographer. This video is 100% bait and this guy clearly has never used a sword in his life.
Call me crazy but I also HATE the "realistic lighting" they're going for. It's usually way too dark for me to see anything and the only light is the lightsaber and its like... dude.
Honestly the new sabers look like LED tubes where as the sabers in the prequels looked like laser beams
People don’t agree with me but I think the Disney lightsabers are the best looking ever. Nothing mimics that ambient lighting. It looks so goood.
i mean it’s worse. it’s not a debate really.
Of course you’re entitled to your opinion/preference but this was a factual based discussion. To many, the fights don’t even compare to the prequels because it’s not proper technique. It’s just swinging like they’re literally swinging bats and not actual sword fighting.
@@randalthekidd7006no it looks the most realistic it’s just the fights suck. The lighting is objectively the best tho.
@@randalthekidd7006it never used to be because the prequel lightsaber fights are objectively over-choreographed and stupid looking, and the whole point of making them heavier in the sequels was to make them feel more dramatic like in the original trilogy… but now I guess there are people who like the prequel fights and want to defend them(?) so idunno. It’s all stupid.
They turned lightsabers into crayons
Sure they're a little heavier (although I have to say the Acolyte sabers are extra thick on purpose while the other hilts still have good to original proportions) but they just look soo much better. Shooting scenes with a lightsaber and adding the lughting afterwards digitally (or not at all) might have been enough 'til 2005 but nowadays it's just not good enough anymore. Besides, The Clone Wars had the blades emit actual light, wich was the first piece of Star Wars media that constantly did that. Sure, it's a lot easier when everything is CGI, still, you can't come back into live action after years of animation and say "Hey, you know this cool effect where lightsabers are actually illiminating the environment? Well, scratch that."
Besides, it's all a matter of technique sometimes. Just look at all of these professional lightsaber stunt fighters, some of them even trained by Nick Gillard himself. They're using electronic lightsabers and they're super fast as well. Granted, their sabers use a minimum of electronics and the blade is baselit, not as heavy as an electronic blade but you get my point.
What I have noticed is they don’t bother to rotoscope the sabers anymore. They let the light from the toy saber represent the blade, and when it moves really fast it doesn’t have the same brightness, making it look like a home video, and makes the light sabers feel less powerful.
I am happy that you mentioned it.
Every sequel is an objective insult to intelligence
Your compalining that the action is slower......... My brother in Christ have you seen the og movies this has to be bait
Even the original trilogy duels were faster than the sequels
@@mreggs3731I hate the sequel’s as much as the next guy but no the original 3 movies(arguments could be made for return of the Jedi) had slower fights
The original trilogy had slow-pwced combat, not slow fighting. The strikes themselves were quick even if the pacing of the combat was slower and closer to kendo than to the modern stage-dueling they use today. The problem with the modern fighting is that the heavier weapons leads to slower swings and clumsier fighting.
My fellow son of Odin, please tell me you understand the difference.
@@thomaswillard6267 I can agree with that fellow follower of zuess
@@levienochs1038 Yes. That doesn't mean we shouldn't criticize Disney for going back to that
If they can move at this speed and have the thinner light-up lightsabers and have good choreography then the fights will be amazing
Star Wars fans really complain about everything. Did you forget that the Luke/Vader fights were also pretty slow?
Also Jedi in the prequels had a lot more training than Rey and Kylo could've had. You already complained that Rey was too powerful and now you're saying that she should have been faster??
It's always got worse when Disney takes over, no it doesn't
Part of it is the heavy sabers, the other part is the fact that the lousy fight Choreography
“5 times as heavier”
Good choice of wording.
i actually really like the weight and choreography of the sequel sabers cause it feels not only more like the originals but like a genuine fight and not a “mark one, mark two” dance where the actors only hit the blades
I straight recognized that issue with the new movies, I'm so glad that this got mentioned
"you get realistic lightning, for the cost of speed"
Not the first time I've take that deal
Trust me it wouldn’t cost speed the actors are just weak.
Did we forget how good the lightsaber fights were in the original trilogy, they were basically perfect
I love when anyone talks about the prequels. Just love it
The actors need to learn fencing
The only trilogy that had proper swordfighting was the OG one
I’m glad the fight scene has been progressively getting better. If only the story and characters could do the same thing -3-
Well I mean I literally come from another short where George is talking about how the lightsabers originally used to be heavy, some bullshit about "the weight of the energy" so tbh we're really just going full circle and utilizing some more upscaled tech to do so.
The mini palpatine said "do it" so I subscribed 😂
Its actually sooo worth it. Lightsaber battles with more weight makes it feel like the sabers have an actual real presence in the scene
Didn't know this and I'm glad you told me!
Hayden and Ewan still moved as fast with the new ones and the lighting effect is totally worth it.
I used to watch TFA behind the scenes because the illuminated props looked so cool but yeah you have a point.
"Personally, I don't think-"
Me too, man... Me too
im convinced Dinsey is the real life Empire counterpart. "They take something you love, turn it into something you can't stand the sight of" Bode Akuna
That’s actually so cool
But isn’t it more realistic to what a lightsaber is? Aren’t lightsabers actually pretty heavy Sabine talks about hers being very heavy idk maybe I’m yapping
I liked the added weight
This is exactly my thought process after watching this episode
i feel like we find reasons to be upset with the new movies that arent needed, they already have reasons for sucking
That’s not why. Hey just don’t train them as hard. There are random UA-camrs using these style of prop lightsabers and making stunning fight scenes.
It was totally worth, realistic light is the only thing it was missing in the OT and prequels
Speed for the sake of speed is such a Hollywood 'Merica attitude
I love the new fight scenes
That is in NO WAY why the fights may have gotten worse. It was poor choreography and poorly conceived narratives to build to the fights due to them rushing the content out
"Allow you to whip it around as fast as you can"
Ive seen this take a lot but I kind of liked the weight in the sequel fight scenes, especially those with Kylo, it conveyed a sense of direct, overwhelming force that fit his character better than the prequel fights would have.
I think the bigger ones are actually better because it looks like they’re actually trying to hit each other with them
Ive actually enjoyed how they have keyed things up in the acolyte. I think Disney is learning how to do lightsabers slowly but surely. I also enjoyed how theyve been leaning a bit more into a crouching tiger hidden dragon esc movement system to show the superhuman ability of the jedi. I hope they can do more of it for sure.
"Just making a swordfight faster doesn't make it better"
- Bob Anderson, sword choreographer for Pirates of the Caribbean, Lord of the Rings, and the original trilogy
Yeah, but it had real choreography. These are jedis and siths, their battles SHOULD be quick since they have superhuman reflexes.
Bro if the maul vs Obi-Wan and Qui Gon fight was so fast, they were using the force IRL
I think having the lightsabers illuminate the face with practical effects does have its own merits. Like when obi wan and vader faced off during the obi wan show, having the red and blue was epically dramatic
Adam driver really took the cross hilt lightsaber and made it his. He really moved well with it, you could tell he was passionate about being Kylo Ren.
When the prequel came out, everyone complained about how fast the fight scenes were. Here we are again I guess, can’t wait for these movies to be considered cinematic gold in the next 10 years
I have never loved the super fast constantly spinning style of the prequel fighting, vs the more fencing/deuling styke of the og trilogy and the sequels.
Genuinely loved kylos fighting style with how crude and deadly it was. Only problem is disney directed his moves
Realistic lighting at the cost of realistic fighting
What I’d do:
The light prequel sabers for duelling.
The newer sabers for scenes a lightsaber is only used a little bit (maybe just a simple ignition, or perhaps an execution).
He said "five times as heavier" lmao
“Five times as heavier as”
Nice
The difference in weight would be soo small that is not the reason they fight scenes suck now lol it’s just badly choreographed compared to the older ones
That obi wan fight with maul was great screw the lighting
Undercranking a camera makes the movements faster, dude
Imagine a live-action grievous being an actual suit..., It could be insane...
we have great led lightsabers with thin hilts and blades. disney can use better lightsabers but they want to use the same molds and machines for their chinsey disneyland sabers. i have one thats the same size as obi wans ep1 saber and has an active battery life of 6 hours and an inactive life of so far 6 months with in hilt leds constantly blinking. they can do better
The prop ones glow as much as a Neo in the dark in sunlight, they do have to be that heavy, they aren’t using legacy’s