Picked up a 99 k2500 suburban with the 454 about a year ago with 68k for $1500, drove it home. 5 months later that truck took me from nyc to the Florida keys. Truck just rolled 80k very solid and reliable.
Nice old truck. I worked on many of them when I was Mr. Goodwrench in the 80's and 90's. Great channel BTY. Just a small correction. The first Chevrolet "big block" was the 348 W motor in 1958 followed by the 409 W motor a few years latter. They were every bit a big block even though the heads and pistons were other worldly. The Mystery Motor for NACSAR was the first Mark IV Big Block Chevy. As you stated, it first appeared for sale to the public as the 396. My first car was an SS396. Your videos have great content and your delivery has class. Keep up the good work!
Appreciate the comments! and yes I might have confused the viewers. Fully agree with your expertise and comments. Those "W" big blocks had some weight to them too! Appreciate your interest! CP
I recently purchased 91 C3500 for $1500, and she started right up. Working on her now to replace the alternator and a new battery. I've seen these cleaned up and looking lovely.
I just LOVE THE MUSIC THOSE DUAL EXHAUST SINGS !👍💯❤️ awesome video and I have to say i appreciate channels like this one that inspires people to get into this hobby/sport type of motorized entertainment and years of enjoyment ! Thumbs up and 👍💯❤️🇺🇲😎🙏
Big Thanks, Eric! I have enjoyed tinkering with old cars since I was 15-years-old and could not afford a car to drive unless I bought a junker and got it running. It was a '68 mustang with a blown 289 motor for $400. He was asking $450. :)
Exactly, had fresh oil and Wix XP filter. I always let a big block get up to warm oil before revving it too! Excellent point made. Thanks for the interest!
@@classicperformance no body warm there engines any more and that is big mistake it will causes oil leaks valves breaking down before it time I highly recommend warm your engines 5 minutes
I remember when these trucks were new had a 91 GMC sierra 2500 with a 350 TBI 419000 kms later the best truck ive ever owjed other than my 73 chevrolet K20 400 small block...good video
Thanks for your interest, Steve. I agree!! This was a great find. See our other videos on it. ua-cam.com/video/VpJqiLsJyTo/v-deo.htmlsi=mESdFWuXqyeq1r4A
Bought a 98 dually 454 with NV4500 few years back. 70k miles on it now. Haul wood in the winter, tow camper in the summer. If you have one of these go ahead and save yourself the trouble and replace ALL brake lines with new ones. They are notorious for rusting and splitting, especially at this age. Great video, thanks!
Great to hear!!! we had it for 18 months and enjoyed every moment with it. If we had a place to keep it inside, would have never sold it! Just too nice of a survivor to leave outside. Hated to see it go, but glad it went to a good home!!!
Heck Yea!!! People still ask me if I have that truck and if I want to sell it. When I tell them I sold it, I get a funny look like, "why didn't you let me know first"
had a built 454 in our '96. had to rebuild the trans 4 times to hold it. after she didnt have any problems running. it ran down a Corvette shortly after. I miss feeling the power under the hood
Beautiful Truck. One of my Trucks is a 1995 K3500 Dually with a Heath Race motor paired with the P400 Cam. Recently had an accident with it which is really painful to see her be so messed up. Just rebuilt the axles ans suspension and got her running again, gotta finish passenger side fender, door and cab but with the Bed being so messed up, ill be putting a Flatbed on soon. I love my Square Body
I love mine I have a crew cab dually and I just put new upper control arms on it I’m cleaning it up with paint and new headlights taillights mirrors and a bunch of other stuff
Not me over here researching these old 1 tons, there’s a 2000 GMC C3500 with the 7.4L for sale at a dealership here with 85k miles that is so tempting me to
all stock duals with cats, two flowmasters added mounted on the side so they would fit, and then two tail pipes. these Chevy trucks had dual exhaust and 2 cats all the way back to the muffler, so it's easy to add a true dual application. Even the 1500 trucks were that way.
@g3n3sis50 you are correct, the 348 did come out in '58 and was considered a big block. We were referencing the generation mark IV and it's debut in '65 and the "mystery motor" variant sneaking into NASCAR in '63. We might not have been clear on all that. Appreciate your interest.
I got a 1994 GMC Sierra with the 6.5 Turbodiesel. The 454 would have been a great motor but for me here in germany too fuel hungry. Since my Sierra is mainly a towing vehicle for transportation and stuff like that It simply would have been the wrong motor for the truck. If the 454 was able to get around 15 to 20 mpg I would have thought about getting one. But sadly thats not the case😅
Yes, very true about the 454 gasser. They do consume fuel, however service is much easier and repairs much less expensive. We get about 12 mpg loaded or unloaded. Thanks for your interest.
@@classicperformance The 6.5 Detroit Diesel is one of the easiest Motors you can work on. Thats what people already told me about the turbodiesel. Only problems these motors have is they are not made for performance what many people dont like. And also cooling problems you need to fix with a better waterpump or a better motor Fan. And most annoying problem is the PMD Modul that I think is controlling the fuel Injection. But if you got the money to fix all that you are gonna have a truck build to last. I bought my truck not in the best shape. The chassis is in a good condition but I guess with 227k miles if the motor has not given up yet I dont believe its gonna give up anytime soon. I think out of the Box the 454 gasser is definetly still the better choice if you dont want to buy a truck that has issues to fix from the get go. If you dont mind problems the 6.5 Diesel is just as good Id say😄
@@Jean_1999 Thank you again for all this good information. I was not aware of the cooling issues with the 6.5. Good to know these things in the event we run across one for sale.
Bad ass rig I just got mine 140k miles 1994 big block what do you recommend I do 1st to it to make sure it stays healthy?? Other then oil and spark plugs?
I just invested in a 1998 GMC Sierra 3500 dually with the 7.4 Liter 454 2WD with 63,000 original miles. I’m looking to tow a fifth wheele with it, could you tell me what you recommend what max weight I can tow? Or should I just stick with the recommended 12,500 from the manual?
That GMC V6 was a massive motor. Many would open the hood not paying attention to the "V6" callout on the side and immediately think it was a big block V8.
Thanks, Matthew. It's a solid truck! Don't really make them like this any longer. and if you want a diesel, they are all problematic now. Especially the DEF systems. garbage
I don't have any rebuild recommendations. Recently with a tired small block it was more cost and time effective to just buy a rebuilt long block with a warranty. Machine work has gotten expensive and harder to find so my suggestion is a Jasper or other motor sourced from your best researched sources in your area.
I like to truck but you're wrong about when they brought. The big block came out in 1958. It was A348 and A409 These were the 1st big. Big blocks Chevy Made. If you don't know now you know? 348 and 409. Chevy's 1st big blocks came out. 58.
The factory manifolds, pipes, cats, and cut before the dual in muffler which was single out adding two vertical Flowmaster 40s and two outlets. No crossover, No X pipe and no H pipe. Actually really quiet in the cab.
Ashley, it's the factory dual exhaust all the way back to single muffler which was removed for two vertically mounted Flowmaster then a pipe out each to back bent at muffler shop. I seem to recall they were the 40 series. Hardly can hear it inside. Perfect tone and not brappy like the kids today like them.
I just got a 98 C3500. Blowing white smoke out the pipes. Thinking I’ve got a blown head gasket. Might just replace the engine (has 200K+ OG miles). Maybe do an LS Swap. Anybody know anything about swapping these motors? I am about as mechanically inclined as a chimpanzee.
The swap can be done and kits are available. Personally I would stick with an earlier 6.0 "drive by cable" throttle just to make it a bit easier. You'll also need the harness ECU, and all the goodies so just don't buy an engine and trans unless it's a complete pull.
I believe you!!!! We're a bit soft and spoiled here in the south and also can't get cheese curds either but have lots of grits. Appreciate the interest!
@@jasonjordan88we don't like mention sales price, but I can say it was listed in Facebook Old School Truck Trader for mid teens and it sold in 24 hrs. You could look up the listing details there.
It's a regular 4x4 model but someone has put a z71 decal on it. They've also added newer "silverado" emblems and tow mirrors. Not knocking it, it looks awesome and is a super cool truck, but only the 1500s had the z71 package available in 1997.
They didn't make a better looking dually than that generation Chevy/GMC. Too bad their diesels were terrible and you can't keep gas in the big-blocks. Cummins to the rescue?
I kick myself in the butt when i think about the opportunity i had over 10 years ago to get one with a manual transmission. Before i had my CDL-A, i went to a mom and pop dealership loolong st a K1500 that was not drivable. They drove one of those beast from around back that was also for sale. My dumbass didnt buy it and bought the k1500 that needed a shit ton of work for $1500 less thanbthe drivable dually. I had the money to buy the dually. Just young and dumb. Made a lot of stupid decisions in the past. Smdh
That’s a very nice truck. I would love ❤️ to own one. They are my favorite trucks made ever.
Selling soon!!
Picked up a 99 k2500 suburban with the 454 about a year ago with 68k for $1500, drove it home. 5 months later that truck took me from nyc to the Florida keys. Truck just rolled 80k very solid and reliable.
chevy trucks are so die hard i swear its almost like a dream lol they will literally outlast 90% of vehicles on the road!
$1500?!! Wow! You stole that!
Just rolled over 210k miles on my 2000 454 K3500 crew cab, long bed, single rear wheels. 23 years of thumbs ups and still looking good.
Thanks for sharing, William! Just great trucks they were and still are!
Nice old truck. I worked on many of them when I was Mr. Goodwrench in the 80's and 90's. Great channel BTY. Just a small correction. The first Chevrolet "big block" was the 348 W motor in 1958 followed by the 409 W motor a few years latter. They were every bit a big block even though the heads and pistons were other worldly. The Mystery Motor for NACSAR was the first Mark IV Big Block Chevy. As you stated, it first appeared for sale to the public as the 396. My first car was an SS396. Your videos have great content and your delivery has class. Keep up the good work!
Appreciate the comments! and yes I might have confused the viewers. Fully agree with your expertise and comments. Those "W" big blocks had some weight to them too! Appreciate your interest! CP
I recently purchased 91 C3500 for $1500, and she started right up. Working on her now to replace the alternator and a new battery. I've seen these cleaned up and looking lovely.
Great buy, Walt. Some tough trucks for sure!
My first car was a 73 ss chevelle with a 454. Bought it for $450. Forty years later it’s still the best car I ever had.
Cool!!! I love those '73 Super Sports. Some even came with the swivel front buckets!
Had a 02 8.1, motor was really strong pulled hard...Loved it
Great Trucks!!!
I just LOVE THE MUSIC THOSE DUAL EXHAUST SINGS !👍💯❤️
awesome video and I have to say i appreciate channels like this one that inspires people to get into this hobby/sport type of motorized entertainment and years of enjoyment !
Thumbs up and 👍💯❤️🇺🇲😎🙏
Big Thanks, Eric! I have enjoyed tinkering with old cars since I was 15-years-old and could not afford a car to drive unless I bought a junker and got it running. It was a '68 mustang with a blown 289 motor for $400. He was asking $450. :)
one of the bast engines ever made 454 powerful nice sound you can not kill one if you change the oil and warm it properly
Exactly, had fresh oil and Wix XP filter. I always let a big block get up to warm oil before revving it too! Excellent point made. Thanks for the interest!
@@classicperformance no body warm there engines any more and that is big mistake it will causes oil leaks valves breaking down before it time I highly recommend warm your engines 5 minutes
@@ssalamri7302 We agree with you!!
@@ssalamri7302i wait til that temp guage rise to normal temp.
@@christianmontesino171 I’m all for letting stuff warm up but in the winter that would take like 2 hours😭
Enjoyed your history of the big block engines. Ty!
We are glad you enjoyed the history of the big block. Cheers!
I remember when these trucks were new had a 91 GMC sierra 2500 with a 350 TBI 419000 kms later the best truck ive ever owjed other than my 73 chevrolet K20 400 small block...good video
Thanks for your interest, Steve. I agree!! This was a great find. See our other videos on it. ua-cam.com/video/VpJqiLsJyTo/v-deo.htmlsi=mESdFWuXqyeq1r4A
such a amazing sounding american machine
Thanks!!! Appreciate the view and interest!!
Bought a 98 dually 454 with NV4500 few years back. 70k miles on it now. Haul wood in the winter, tow camper in the summer. If you have one of these go ahead and save yourself the trouble and replace ALL brake lines with new ones. They are notorious for rusting and splitting, especially at this age. Great video, thanks!
Great trucks and appreciate the feedback on the brake lines!
Compared to anything after 1999 these are gold i got a 1996 k2500 love it most reliable truck ive owned 265000 and still going
We agree, Richard! rugged beasts with good driver comfort and convenience items. Thanks!
Keep video's going 👍
Will do, Richard!! Kinda working on the '56 Packard and '69 MGB at the moment. Got an eye on an all-original '73 CJ5 that might appear soon too.
I still have this truck. Runing great still!
Great to hear!!! we had it for 18 months and enjoyed every moment with it. If we had a place to keep it inside, would have never sold it! Just too nice of a survivor to leave outside. Hated to see it go, but glad it went to a good home!!!
@classicperformance ill make sure to send you some pictures. She got a face lift
Heck Yea!!! People still ask me if I have that truck and if I want to sell it. When I tell them I sold it, I get a funny look like, "why didn't you let me know first"
@@classicperformance 🤣
had a built 454 in our '96. had to rebuild the trans 4 times to hold it. after she didnt have any problems running. it ran down a Corvette shortly after. I miss feeling the power under the hood
Like a rock 👏 excelent history chevy
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for the feedback.
Beautiful Truck. One of my Trucks is a 1995 K3500 Dually with a Heath Race motor paired with the P400 Cam. Recently had an accident with it which is really painful to see her be so messed up. Just rebuilt the axles ans suspension and got her running again, gotta finish passenger side fender, door and cab but with the Bed being so messed up, ill be putting a Flatbed on soon. I love my Square Body
darn, sorry to hear that! Keep pushing!!! Thanks for the interest!!
I love mine I have a crew cab dually and I just put new upper control arms on it I’m cleaning it up with paint and new headlights taillights mirrors and a bunch of other stuff
Cool!! Great trucks!!!
Gen VI came out in 96. Mark V came out in 91. Mark IV was 90 and older
Just bought a 99 c3500 crew cab dually 454..Paid 2k for it..runs good.
A deal for sure!!!!!
Love the truck👍🏼
Nice truck!
Thanks 👍
Not me over here researching these old 1 tons, there’s a 2000 GMC C3500 with the 7.4L for sale at a dealership here with 85k miles that is so tempting me to
Sounds like a great truck possibly with only 85K miles. Most were worked really hard!
@ I’m keeping my eyes on it, they’re asking $18,500 for it. But it’s a pretty clean rig
The price is not too far out-of-line especially if it is 4wd.
@ unfortunately it appears to just be 2WD, at least as best I can tell from the pictures. I don’t see a 4WD control
Beautiful truck
Thanks!!! and thanks for your interest!
Whats the exhaust setup sounds great
all stock duals with cats, two flowmasters added mounted on the side so they would fit, and then two tail pipes. these Chevy trucks had dual exhaust and 2 cats all the way back to the muffler, so it's easy to add a true dual application. Even the 1500 trucks were that way.
I always thought the 348 chevy was the first big block? Not entirely sure. I think it came out in '58. Great video!
@g3n3sis50 you are correct, the 348 did come out in '58 and was considered a big block. We were referencing the generation mark IV and it's debut in '65 and the "mystery motor" variant sneaking into NASCAR in '63. We might not have been clear on all that. Appreciate your interest.
@ you made it clear! Thank you for responding!
What a beauty!
Thank You!!
Good day, nice video and very nice Truck!!! I have a '93 C1500 with a 350 Tbi.... so that will be the mouse then.... 🤣 But I love her!!!
Thanks 👍 They are great trucks!!! the 350 TBI is also a good running motor! I had one too.
That is exactly the kinda badge I wanna put on mine the new style Chevy badge
Glad you agree! eBay.
@classicperformance thanks I'm definitely going see about getting them
Great!!!!
That is a very nice truck
Thanks!!! I have decided to sell it. Just not doing much with it as originally planned last year.
@@classicperformance you’ll get good money for it that’s for sure
Just purchased a 1994 k3500 crew cab 4x4 7.4 V8 😎 runs so dam good with 222k
Yes!!!! way to go Efraim!!!
I want one for camping and hunting. Extended cab duallys are harder to find.
True!!!
yhep... They Just Don't Make 'Em Like They Used To...!!! Nice Rig...!
Beautiful American 🇺🇸 muscle!!
Size of tire are your running sir?
Looks great
El unO, thanks!! And the tire size is larger than original at LT 285/75/16
I got a 1994 GMC Sierra with the 6.5 Turbodiesel. The 454 would have been a great motor but for me here in germany too fuel hungry. Since my Sierra is mainly a towing vehicle for transportation and stuff like that It simply would have been the wrong motor for the truck. If the 454 was able to get around 15 to 20 mpg I would have thought about getting one. But sadly thats not the case😅
Yes, very true about the 454 gasser. They do consume fuel, however service is much easier and repairs much less expensive. We get about 12 mpg loaded or unloaded. Thanks for your interest.
@@classicperformance The 6.5 Detroit Diesel is one of the easiest Motors you can work on. Thats what people already told me about the turbodiesel. Only problems these motors have is they are not made for performance what many people dont like. And also cooling problems you need to fix with a better waterpump or a better motor Fan. And most annoying problem is the PMD Modul that I think is controlling the fuel Injection. But if you got the money to fix all that you are gonna have a truck build to last. I bought my truck not in the best shape. The chassis is in a good condition but I guess with 227k miles if the motor has not given up yet I dont believe its gonna give up anytime soon. I think out of the Box the 454 gasser is definetly still the better choice if you dont want to buy a truck that has issues to fix from the get go. If you dont mind problems the 6.5 Diesel is just as good Id say😄
@@Jean_1999 Thank you again for all this good information. I was not aware of the cooling issues with the 6.5. Good to know these things in the event we run across one for sale.
Bad ass rig I just got mine 140k miles 1994 big block what do you recommend I do 1st to it to make sure it stays healthy?? Other then oil and spark plugs?
Oil and spark plugs! I have always used Shell Rotella oil in mine and Wix filters. Don't forget your fuel filter on the frame rail.
@@classicperformance fuel filter on frame rail??? I just looked I never knew they even had that! Thank you I appreciate you getting back to me.
@@erikmorales8688 Yes should be an easy change. Might hit it with a little DW-40 or something prior to putting wrenches on it.
Hi, Mk5 came out in 1991. I see you have a Vortec engine which makes it a 1996 Gen 6.
Yes!!! truck is a 1997. Thanks for the interest and information.
How many milles per gallon truck like this one can offer? I’m looking forward to get one
never really paid much attention. 12-13 on the road. Loaded or unloaded it really does not care or change much
I just invested in a 1998 GMC Sierra 3500 dually with the 7.4 Liter 454 2WD with 63,000 original miles. I’m looking to tow a fifth wheele with it, could you tell me what you recommend what max weight I can tow? Or should I just stick with the recommended 12,500 from the manual?
cant say, I have stuck with the 12,500
my 63 gmc pickup had the v6 big block
That GMC V6 was a massive motor. Many would open the hood not paying attention to the "V6" callout on the side and immediately think it was a big block V8.
The big block didn't end in 2000. Haven't you heard of the Vortec 8100 496ci?
Yes, correct you are. That monster ran through 2010.
I believe he was referring to the 454 BB specifically, I’m sure he knows about the 8.1’s , which weren’t too well received
yes, and correct Rusty.
Does that have wheel spacers in the rear?
If so where did you get them
it does not (that I recall). These are 75 aspect ratio tires and fit well.
Has to be the only beige car of any kind i ever thought was pretty
Agreed! gotta be careful with those 90's colors!
good stuff
Thanks, Matthew. It's a solid truck! Don't really make them like this any longer. and if you want a diesel, they are all problematic now. Especially the DEF systems. garbage
Looking for recommendations on rebuilding my 454
I don't have any rebuild recommendations. Recently with a tired small block it was more cost and time effective to just buy a rebuilt long block with a warranty. Machine work has gotten expensive and harder to find so my suggestion is a Jasper or other motor sourced from your best researched sources in your area.
Thanks for the info!
I got still have mine 59,600 original miles 1995 crew cab dually still purrs
Awesome!!! best trucks ever!
If you can get a Big Block that don’t eat a Cam lobe and don’t tick at Start up you got a good One
Thanks! I suspect we got a good one here. No problems at all with the original motor.
8:34 is startup
What size tires are on this truck?
285 75 16 as I recall. Factory OEM rims no lift.
@@classicperformance THANK YOU!!!!! 🫡
@@JesusOrtiz-nn5br welcome!
I like to truck but you're wrong about when they brought. The big block came out in 1958. It was A348 and A409 These were the 1st big. Big blocks Chevy Made. If you don't know now you know? 348 and 409. Chevy's 1st big blocks came out. 58.
Yes, Patrick, you are correct. I was mostly talking about the generation of big block the 454 is.
What’s the tow compacity
Tow capacity is around 10,000 pounds, payload 3,500. Curb weight 5,100. It'll tow a lo more than that.
@@classicperformance appreciate your response
@@banksboy6806 Most welcome!
what size tires were those?
285 75 16 I recall.
Thats a gen 6 454 gen5 ends with the tbi 1995 the 96 has vortec heads efi so mark 6 for the 96
Thanks for the info!!!
MPG?
9-12, possibly 14 on a perfect day. 4:11 gears
I am looking to rebuild mine for my 97 suburban tow vehicle
Cool! keep us posted.
what type muffer system does it have?
The factory manifolds, pipes, cats, and cut before the dual in muffler which was single out adding two vertical Flowmaster 40s and two outlets. No crossover, No X pipe and no H pipe. Actually really quiet in the cab.
What exhaust?
Ashley, it's the factory dual exhaust all the way back to single muffler which was removed for two vertically mounted Flowmaster then a pipe out each to back bent at muffler shop. I seem to recall they were the 40 series. Hardly can hear it inside. Perfect tone and not brappy like the kids today like them.
@@classicperformance Thanks... I was gonna' ask that also
I just got a 98 C3500. Blowing white smoke out the pipes. Thinking I’ve got a blown head gasket. Might just replace the engine (has 200K+ OG miles). Maybe do an LS Swap. Anybody know anything about swapping these motors? I am about as mechanically inclined as a chimpanzee.
The swap can be done and kits are available. Personally I would stick with an earlier 6.0 "drive by cable" throttle just to make it a bit easier. You'll also need the harness ECU, and all the goodies so just don't buy an engine and trans unless it's a complete pull.
What size tires are you running?
275 75 16 I recall
Daaammmmmm niceeeee
Thanks Ruben!!! Those OG Chevys are great trucks!!! 👍
454 is literally the best motor ever made. But it’s a gas hog lmao. I’d still choose 454 anyway
Agreed! A bit thirsty for sure.
Gas hog is a very nice way to say it lol
how many miles for your truck
93,000. It had been a horse far truck for most of its life with limited use for shows and moving horses is all.
20s is T shirt weather in Wisconsin lol
I believe you!!!! We're a bit soft and spoiled here in the south and also can't get cheese curds either but have lots of grits. Appreciate the interest!
How much would you sell it for?
Just sold it. Sorry 😞
How much did you get?
@@jasonjordan88we don't like mention sales price, but I can say it was listed in Facebook Old School Truck Trader for mid teens and it sold in 24 hrs. You could look up the listing details there.
That truck is G6 i love it i have one nice truck that my baby
Thanks!!! Appreciate the interest!
My '93 crew will almost do that. Those TBI engines are a BITCH to get set up and the PS exh. manifold melts the carpet when pulling hard !!
Yes, agreed, they do have some issues, but overall excellent trouble free trucks!
Dude is that a z71, can’t even find a regular 4x4 one
Yep! A rare find especially in this condition and with the option packages and low miles. Appreciate the interest!
It's a regular 4x4 model but someone has put a z71 decal on it. They've also added newer "silverado" emblems and tow mirrors. Not knocking it, it looks awesome and is a super cool truck, but only the 1500s had the z71 package available in 1997.
@@canyouguessmyname15 You are correct. It has been updated on the exterior.
Thought this was gas engine
It is a gas 454 engine.
They didn't make a better looking dually than that generation Chevy/GMC. Too bad their diesels were terrible and you can't keep gas in the big-blocks. Cummins to the rescue?
So true on all accounts!
I kick myself in the butt when i think about the opportunity i had over 10 years ago to get one with a manual transmission. Before i had my CDL-A, i went to a mom and pop dealership loolong st a K1500 that was not drivable. They drove one of those beast from around back that was also for sale. My dumbass didnt buy it and bought the k1500 that needed a shit ton of work for $1500 less thanbthe drivable dually. I had the money to buy the dually. Just young and dumb. Made a lot of stupid decisions in the past. Smdh
Thanks for the story. We all have those where we are still kicking ourselves. Ugh!!!