Shaping a Turbo Exhaust Manifold Part 2
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- Опубліковано 18 вер 2024
- In this video we make the cuts on the stainless manifold using the G&E shaper to get the flange face perfectly flat and allow proper sealing of the gasket.
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Being the machinist you are, I know you are always shooting for a nice finish on your final cuts. But as a racer with a couple of SCCA championships, I sure wish you would have left the rougher finish. In high pressure (turbo) exhaust systems, the rougher surface helps keep the gaskets from walking when the manifolds are clamped down and heat cycled. Gorgeous work though! You certainly made it much, much better that what you started with.
I get what you're saying about the finish, but it can leave Adam's shop in a finish he's comfortable with, and the customer can then rough it up a bit to suit his needs.
Shamus Mathers by “roughing it up” you’ll compromise the flatness.
Shapers always look effortless in operation. I could watch them for ages - oh, I am watching one :)
Me too it's like the best relaxing video ever
I'd watch a 30 minute sweep of a shaper. Similar to watching a clock go tic toc for an hour
Jesse Foulk check out daichihira on Instagram, i think you’d like it :) Japanese machine shop that does some very large work.
When I first saw a shaper, I couldn't understand why you'd want one. Every time I see you do a job on it, I get it more and more now. Awesome machine and as always, you do one hell of a nice job with it.
I used to be a milling machine setter in a production shop and the best bit of kit I had was a wheeled trolley that stored all my bolts, clamps and measuring tools. It saved hours of time searching for bits, and whenever a run was finished the operator would clean the mill, clean and return all the jigs to the stores and leave all the fixings on the mill. The operators, mostly women, were by far the best, especially if I upped the speed enough to avoid the time and motion man visiting but gave them a bit more bonus.
My old man always said for every man that cries theres one that laughs. I run three shaping machines in Zimbabwe. Without these Chinese parts we would be out of business. Aldo
I think you did a good job for the condition it arrived. The finish will adhere to the gasket material just fine. Some engineers are never happy, must be an ego thing. Hard to find an expert on being an expert in a sea of experts. But you sir, are a master. No experts needed.
I used to have an electric bell on a magnet which i would put on the slide so it would tell me when i was getting near the end of the cut. Used it on the shaper and long lathe
Welcome to 304, it's beautiful when you can get a nice looking finish on it. For what that is though, it's not going to make any difference. Glad to see your setup didn't have any trouble.
I could fall asleep to the sound of a shaper
I just did 😴😴
My dad has SS exhaust system on his built up 302. Had similar issues with flange warp-age. He found a guy that owns a private company that builds prototypes and designs exhaust systems for companies like Ford and Harley Davidson. After a several month wait to get his headers in, he straightened out the flange, and then proceeded to cut the flange between each port. He said that is the only way you can ensure they will seal and stay sealed on these SS exhausts manifolds. That was about 10 years ago and they are still working perfectly. Just what I was told!
"I'm indicated the way I want" has become my response whenever someone questions something I'm working on
I’m not a machinist I am a Millwright at the Hanford nuclear site in Richland Washington. I watched your video on the exhaust manifold, and back in the day when this was a going operation; I would see the machinists attach a tool post grinder to the clapper box on their shapers and do a mirror finish on the stainless steel parts that went inside the reactors. Just an idea something maybe you’ve never seen. Yeah we’re out here cleaning up 58,000,000 gallons of chemical nuclear waste left over from the Manhattan project.
In this application I was always told that leaving some surface texture improves the ability of the gasket to seal.
Hi Adam two words thank you without your videos I would be going around the bend here in lock down in Australia.
These first four passes are brought to you today by NotEvenClose Manifolds where "We are not happy until you are not happy".
Finally, at 31:56, you tell me more of why a shaper works different than a mill. I would never have figured out that there is less heat and pressure difference between the two. I always thought you like to be hypnotized or maybe it's machine yoga. Thanks
Hey Adam, Because that is a steel flanged fabricated header, I would most DEFINITELY have left the rougher finish you had with the point-bit. Remember, you need that "tooth" in the surface to keep the gasket sealed, especially when you have an aluminum head and steel header. The shear forces are tremendous due to the different expansion rates of dissimilar metals. Just trying to pass on my previous experiences from engine building and turbo-charging old Mopars. Still looks good, though. That old G&E is a BEAST, though!
I used to run lathes years ago... and I learned that a lot of what had to do was make sure my setup was right... I heard an old painter say once that "A good paint job is 90% prep".
Absolutely accurate and definitely applies to both situations
As a painter I can confirm. Getting the ownership to understand that on the other hand...
I'm not a machinist by trade by a long shot... I work in IT and rarely get to touch anything more than my car as far as mechanical things go.
I wouldn't hesitate for one minute to spend most of my time tooling around a shop with someone like Abom if I didn't have to work for a living. There is just something entrancing about setting these machines up, maintaining them, and figuring out how to best work on a project.
It just seems so much more satisfying and less stressful than trying to figure out some IT issue on a system you can't even see or does not even have a physical presence.
I told my wife that if we win the lottery I am buying some land where I can build a barn with a shop in it. I'll learn how to weld, use a lathe, and maybe CNC. I'll just do odd jobs for people once I become proficient and I warned her I might become agitated or violent if someone asks me to fix their mothers computer or recommend a laptop brand.
Don't want a surface too smooth ...need something for the gasket to "bite" and not slip on a mirror surface. See ASME B46.1 for RA and RMS description/calculation. Don't know about exhaust gasket, but probably don't want < 40 RA for a head gasket. Learned this the hard way with a boiler circulation pump on a CE 2,400 psi boiler. Kept leaking. We kept flattening and smoothing, and leaking, before we resorted to the instruction manual and found the surface finish requirement.
For this implementation, the half way point on this video was probably a better stopping point. No need to get out the shear tool at all. That shiny face is going to get bolted to a gasket and never looked at again. Truly useful to learn what works and what doesn't, but in this case 'gilding the lily'
I want to thank you for your videos how how you make the hard things look so simple for a noob like me I am never done any of work but I enjoy watching your skill and your confidence thank you again
Adom
In the automotive industry, you want a finish, that is flat and smooth, but not like a peace of glass. If it is to smooth the gasket wants to move, especially in the high performance industry. I forget the RA that is recommended. Head gaskets is the worst.
We used to do these in a large surface grinder, keeping it cool and free from warping was an absolute bitch, this looks much better.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I always thought they left a little roughness on gasket surfaces to grip and hold the gasket to keep them from blowing out.
I'm with you.
Its sure a good thing your around to fix these cheesy cheap aftermarket parts. They never machine them after welding thats why all of them are out.. Great job Adam !!
You are the ultimate in machinist youtubers. I have a challenge for you. It will save the most time for lathe and shaper long term.
Look at a tool bit. Think about grinding one face. One quick grind. Now make a tool holder that will present and support that bit to the work in such a way that all other reasons for further grinds are covered.
Grinding tool bits is an art that is unproductive work time. It is easy to mess up a grind. Most grinds destroy a tool bit before the metal is used up.
I imagine a holder for each type of cut.
Robert A. Heinlein in his book "Time Enough for Love" used a phrase "constructively lazy". It meant working hard at first to make something easy to do long term.
Thanks
I love the way you're thinking there and your reference to Robert Heinlein, but I think the complexity of the job and the diversity of factors involved in attaining the desired cut would mean that learning the art of the tool grind would be simpler and more effective than manufacturing a whole set of holders with the necessary geometry to suit all job requirements. Although tool holding is an integral part of the cut, the fine tuning of where the tool meets the workpiece has got to come from the tool geometry. Having said that I'm sure there are such sets of tool holders available for the common circumstances, but these days instead of grinding the tool you select the right carbide insert and you are golden :)
But coming from a jewellery manufacturing background myself, I totally get that Abomb is absolutely an artist; the shaper and grinding the tool is what gives him the chance to express himself, artistically speaking. The simplicity IS in the grind and then the application of that grind to the workpiece is surely determined by the grind itself.
That's my take on it anyway.
Look up the 'tangential' toolholder for lathes. It holds a HSS blank so that the cutting action is on the end (with most of the toolbit hanging down below the holder). Clearance angles are built into the holder, resharpening is literally on just one face.
I think generally this idea is a good one, and for most machine work it's a problem that has already been solved by carbide insert tooling- you don't even need to regrind, just index to the next cutting edge and keep machining, when all edges are blunt replace the insert (and send the used one back to the manufacturer for recycling). I say this as someone who is mad enough to own a tool and cutter grinder for resharpening HSS milling cutters...
@@musicbro8225 I read him when it was new and have lived my life constructively lazy. It has kept me from getting stuck in any box. I have made quick change tool holders that do what I suggest. Adam can look at it from the pro side and step out of the box a bit. Carbide is too brittle to use in all cases. HSS and cobalt come to the rescue and get expencive if you ruin the face by enthusiastic grinding.
@@nerd1000ify Tangential tool holders have some problems. Lantern tool posts have adjustable presentation but is not a quick change.
Yay! My daily dose of Abom!! Time to grab a cold one and relax while watching the master at work!
Tell Phil that one of the biggest reasons these surfaces get warped is because people don't torque the manifold bolts to spec. Then they get the manifold cherry red hot during a pull and the uneven torques on the bolts from either ugga duggas or hand tightening warp said manifold. Torque them and this problem will happen less frequent.
Thank you ... I was wondering if it was manufacturing or poor install... think you nailed it
I'd bet the problem is more weld deformation and lack of quality control in the Chinese factory than improper torque by a guy who builds custom vehicles for a living.
That shaper is so quiet and accurate. Awesome work Adam. Great set of videos. Thank you for sharing.
When you checked the temperature I was surprised that the shaper has a temperature probe - until I realized that you still had the BBQ cooking XD
Barbeque and machinery. That has to be the most American thing if I ever heard one.
So does anyone else find the G&E in action soothing?
Yes
Man. I love these two parters.... When part 2 comes up on my home page it's like mini-Christmas!
Having a little "tooth" in the flange will embed into the gasket for a better seal.
Good point about the shaper vs milling machine.
What happened with the bbq? You left us hanging...
Maybe it was on the other channel? 🤷♂️
He's eaten it! That looked like an Abom serving.
Idea for a future project Adam. Make a holder to mount a grinder on the shaper for things to large or oddly shaped for the surface grinder. That might turn projects like this one into works of art. AND, what about the pulled pork?
One thing about cutting it with the shaper ... the cut lines are going to provide a great sealing surface once it's mated back up to the head.
EDIT: And then you went back and put a couple of "finishing passes" on it to make it look better ... Adam, it looked great BEFORE you did that. Those cut lines would have provided a great sealing surface.
Adam, it is wonderful to see the type of content that made your channel great in the first place. Keep the jobs coming in and show us this kind of excellent set up and machining content.
I'm thinking the flange was probably fairly flat before the ducting/piping was welded in, and the welder did a couple things wrong or at least not well enough;
He may or may not have preheated the parts enough before welding, but he almost surely didn't keep them preheated until the last tube was welded.
Also, he probably welded the two inside pipes first- building a lot of heat in the center of the flange which made it bow up on the ends, and before it could cool and relax back to anything near flat, he welded the outer pipes and held the bow in.
Frankly, even if he had done everything right I don't see how they could expect a good mating surface with a machined surface unless they machined it after welding. No way something like that should have been shipped when it was damn near 1/16th of an inch out of flat.
LOL worst comes to worst, they could have used an Angle Grinder for a flatter finish LOL
Adam you are the epitome of patience and persistence which is a great thing.
Don't do a smooth finish Adam. A rough finish will help the gasket to create a mechanical lock.
In other words, the gasket will bite onto the metal.
You, sir, are an artist. No wonder you want to show off your stuff on the internet. Love it.
Part 3.... Pulled Pork?? :-)
That WAS a good demonstration of a shaper job, enjoyed watching, thank you.
If the flang is a bit rough that's ok because it helps the gasket get a better seal.
I kind of wondered the same thing ! I think too much polishing would be bad.
@@jackpatteeuw9244 yes your right too much polishing or a really smooth surface isn't good.
Also a slightly rough surface allows sealant to hold onto if you chooses to use any.
Adam, you are one talented human being! Thank you for sharing your world with us!
Neat outcome, but wouldn't an indexable fly cutter on a mill do it faster without much heat buildup ??
The first machine i used as an apprentice was a shaper 55 years later i still love them. Thanks for the memories jolt.
if the surface finish is too smooth the gasket won't seal as well and there is more chance of the gasket being blow out.
If the head surface is as flat, you won’t need a gasket
@@OneCupOfCoffee204 To get 'no gasket' levels of flatness needs a bit more effort than milling or shaping, I think generally this would only be possible if both surfaces are hand scraped or very accurately ground.
Depends on the gasket material. I've done a few things with header gaskets before that worked well. One is Making my own gaskets (Granddad taught me how) out of Garlock and soaking them in Sodium Silicate solution. Works like a charm (kinda messy when you take it apart in the future and half of the gasket stays on the flange and the other half stays on the head)...
For applications like this, you do not necessarily want a mirror finish on the part.
At this kind of pressures, imperfections at the microscopic level will help the gasket to "bite", and the slight imperfections will help to seal the gases.
Imagine the gas pistons on gas operated rifles. They have depressions on the piston in order to gas-seal the mechanism.
Therefore, a mirror finish is not necessarily ideal.
That being said, your work is absolutely amazing! If I lived near you, you would definitely be my first choice! No question about it! Your attention to detail is top-notch!
Thank you for sharing these videos. I have leaned more about machining on this channel than I did in a 3 year course back in high school!
Thank you ever so much Adam!
Next time you do a job like this, grab a fine sanding paper and sand the part perpendicular to or at around 45deg to the shaper so that you endup with a cross pattern. A few seconds back and forth will do it. That way you eliminate straight channels for the flow to escape, plus you gain a different axis for the gasket particles to shoulder themselves into.
Great job!
Okay so after Adam worked on an engine, you don't need gaskets or bolts anymore, since everything will wring together :P
Wring
@@JP-kk5vw thanx! Still trying to grasp this language 😜. Fixed now
Hi Adam,
Those parts are a disgrace!
It was interesting that it wasn't sealing on the top between 2 and 3 and the bottom for 1 and 4, so the distortion is in both directions.
It would be interesting to see their weld sequence in assembly.
That shaper action is very relaxing and therapeutic.
Hope you enjoyed that roast.
Really like the creative solutions using hold downs and blocks on irregular shapes. Just curious, how do you dress the grinding wheels on all your grinders, and what type of dressing tool do you use?
Oh yeah...his setups seem wonky..but work very well...he definitely knows how to mount and support odd shapes..sign of a very good machinist
These videos are hypnotic, thanks for sharing.
Just out of curiosity... can you share an estimate how much you‘d charge for such a job?
Looks to me like somebody is living the dream !!!!
I am disappointed. You showed the final perfect finish but didn’t roll in the pork roast final perfect finish. 😀
I think that you did an excellent job getting the manifold in a proper position to do the machining on it after seeing the first cut.
The problem with getting them to smooth is they don’t hold a gasket from blowni out,it needs a rough surface
I agree. Adam you did too good of a job. It needs to be rough so the gasket grabs and doesn't slide. (blow out).
Nothing 5 minutes in a sand blasting cabinet and a bath in the parts washer can't fix. It's nice and level and flat now which is the bigger concern. If really high boost is used an MLS gasket is probably needed anyway.
@@mannys9130 or a piece of 60 grit sandpaper and a 2x4 block. Lol.
About time. I was hanging from the cliff by the my nails ...🤓
I'm still amazed by the extraordinary finish this machine can do.
Toolmarks are always there. A milling machine would leave circular pattern marks.
Watching all your setup and tools preparation, I understand why this type of machining is not that common.
It really takes a professional with experience to use a shaper. Well done !
Adam, why this way instead of milling?
@Frank Graham Why not the shaper? Explain why he shouldn't use the shaper. The mill offers no advantage on this job. People fail to realize that Adam makes his money showing us different jobs. He is less concerned with how much time it takes. The shaper is a great machine for jobs like this.
He explained in the first video that due to the complex shape of the part and the work-holding requirements, he preferred to set it up and level it using the shapers's universal table instead of mucking around trying to get it dialled in square and true on the mill table.
The shaper is mesmerizing. Great job as always. Thanks
Would it be possible to do this job in the milling machine?
did you watch till the end of the vid?? Where Adam talks about not wanting the pressure and heat from a rotating mill head,,,,,
I'm sure in a production operation, they'd do this in a pass or 2 on a cnc. There's no way they'd run 5 passes (or whatever it was) on a shaper - you'd make 4 of them a day!
Milling is the usual way of finishing this sort of thing. Generally with a flycutter, as I understand it.
@@nerd1000ify belt sander is how you´d do it.
Could do yes, maybe with a fly cutter, Adam chose to do it on shaper, there are many ways to skin a cat. machines are very versatile, you can turn round bar into a square or hexagon bar on a lathe if you choose to do so.
Adam, you can definitely tell the pride you take in your work, it's not always about the almighty dollar. Your pursuit for perfection is admirable.
How did the pulled pork turn out?
The shaper is hipnotic.
what??? how did the pork turn out!
I second this question!
Check out his other channel for that
@@nickhale117 what other channel ??
@@philipdenner8504 ABOM Adventures. All the cool kids hang out there. :)
Love the respect you have for your tools,materials and machinery
why not milling it?
Ya my thoughts as well.
i was curious as well, so i got to looking on different forums and such, the common theme i was finding, you can't beat the precision of a shaper. an endmill would have likely done just fine (tooling marks aside), but hes got a shaper, so why not use it *shrug*. add the fact that its for a friend why not deliver some above and beyond quality.
Great minds think alike! 😂
I'm nothing more than a very casual viewer, but I'm surprised to learn a shaper is more precise than a mill. We've seen precision from Abom79 on a mill many times. And then you've got those CNC boys...
There's another good example of the abilities of a shaper, doing a fairly large surfacing job with very low tool pressure. Great video, thanks Adam
Something so satisfying about watching that shaper at work
Yep. I love using mine when I can.
amazing how much smoke is being formed, really shows you how tough it is to work Stainless Steel
Gday Adam, a shaper definitely has a lot of positives and there not as slow as people think, my shaper is only small, 11”stroke, I have a mill also but I always use the shaper before the mill, cheaper on tooling and as you said you can leave it do it’s job and do something else at the same time, as a hobbyist I can’t afford to buy milling cutters all the time, a piece of HSS last a long time in a shaper, I try to buy my HSS second hand off eBay, this way I can buy top quality at a fraction of new price, awesome example of where a shaper really shines, thanks Adam, great results, take care Matty
Using a Belt Sander to Fix this: Free
Watching a master craftsman do it with precision: priceless
I am honestly not sure how far a belt sander would have made it?! Might have been better, because the high spots were quite high, but more likely a belt sander might have worsened the fit.
All the heat from welding really warped the heck outta that manifold,I’ll bet those guys trying to get that thing not to leak dang near went crazy,and shaper’s doin a good job with awkward shape of manifold and all the interrupted cuts,especially with SS. And flat as Frankenstein’s head,old toolmaker used to tell me that.
Just finished watching part one and this magically appears, thanks Adam.
I have watched you use this machine a few times the first time i seen it in action i thought it was to big and bulky to do a nice finish but i was definitely wrong. Love your videos keep ip the good work.
The finish that you ended up with may not have been what you were striving for, but a finish for this application needs some tooth for the gasket to bite on to prevent gasket blow out.you handled this job as true professional,thanks for all your efforts.
Great video pair Adam..... love that shaper! You're really comfortable around all your machines. Way to go!
From the looks of it, that flange wasn’t even flat to begin with. I’ve built enough of these to know what welding “usually” does to those flanges and I would say this thing was not flat before they even started any welding. Love the shaper....as always! Thanks for another great one! Also, as you’ve mentioned before and as you’re aware, those tool marks are actually helping the gaskets seal. I had to explain that to my machinist when he was trying to get a mirror finish on things like this. Small tool marks and a some variation (kinda like crosshatching on cylinder bores) are actually a good thing.
Surely they would have the flange in a holding jig when welding it ?!
Henry Pasini... I’m sure they did, but it doesn’t matter. I have some serious jigs for these and it still happens.
By the standards of today a shaper is considered out of date machine tool. But this project would have been extremely difficult with modern equipment. The universal table with your shaper allowed a very uneven surface to be correctly machined to a flat and smooth surface. It goes to show you that a properly setup machine can do modern machine work that newer machines would have a hard time duplicating as well. I can see why you love your G & E Shaper with the universal table.
Agreed! This job would’ve been a nightmare to setup in the mill compared to shaper. That universal table sure is great!
You can hold that flange to a strong back while welding and as soon as you release the hold downs the residual stress will still warp. That's why all machining is done after welding. Ask me how I know. From an engineer it's nice to see how much work goes into a setup. I don't know how many times Ive had to explain to management that the total ob time includes the setup not just the machine time
PS even machining off a face will remove some of the stressed material and it will warp again. Your best bet if you want a truly flat face is to stress relieve between welding and machining. This is perfect for what it is and the gasket will seal it. Nice ob
I have never seen anything so badly warped as this item is. 40 thousandths plus is an awful lot of warp to deal with straight out of the box. Luckily there are people like you who can make these items usable, great job Adam!!
Gotta love some shaper action!!! I was really curious to see what the surface finish would end up looking like, specially because of how nice it does on Al. It would be interesting what it takes to get a really nice finish on SS. Thanks so much for sharing Adam, take care!!!
I've watched you machine flat surfaces on a few auto parts, which is cool, but I'd really be interested in getting updates on how those parts worked out. Are they like, "Hell Yeah! Fit first time!" or something like that. Enjoy watching you work and plan Mr. Booth. Keep on keepin' on!
You totally need to mount the Noga camera mount on the end of the shaper for a really cool tracking shot.
THE SWEETEST PART OF THIS JOB WAS SEEING THAT STRAIGHT EDGE DROP ON THAT MANIFOLD..SWEET MAN..ROCKMAN😎!
Adam, you're basically a legend now. You've got your process of analysis & execution of anything you do so dialed in... Would you be okay with sharing some stories of early to the trade mishaps that you may have made or heard of to remind everyone that nobody starts off perfect? I'm sure you've got some great stories you could share as we all do learning the ropes on our way to the mastery of our respective trades. I appreciate even a thumbs up from you, I'm sure you're a busy guy. Keep the content coming you absolute legend.
The right man with the right tool for the right job.
I would love to hear some feed back from these very unusual jobs you do and assume everybody is 100% happy with the Abom touch.
Hi Adam, thanks for showing us this project.
I Am Not A Machinist, but I have a suggestion that may help the finish when using a shear tool - could you attach a brush to the tool holder, maybe one in front and one in back, to move the chips out of the way when the tool is retracting after a pass? I noticed a couple times the tool bounced up a lot more on the return stroke, and some of the marring on the finish might be from a chip being dragged back under the cutting tool.
shavings would get caught in the brush and drag along. Normally you would have a coolant or air line attached to blow away the chips. In reality though the finish isn't that important here
@@johnzaffina6921 I always wondered this too, why the chips aren't even cleared between passes, so thanks for the description! In a way it seems like another case of "acceptable tolerances"
The chips aren't contributing negatively to the surface finish. They are pushed out of the way, and they are not pushed with enough force to cause any scratches. They are not being recut either. (and if some are, it is inconsequential to the surface finish)
*Nice job. Nice effort to do the best professional work you could accomplish!*
You do a great job at turning a 30 minute task into a full day project , still satisfying to watch tho
Great job getting the manifold flat, taking your time and setting it up right really pays off!
Obviously the manifold is warped, but what is also obvious is the wrong gasket was used; judging by the material you scraped off the manifold and the witness marks left by the gasket. A Coyote engine has aluminum heads. The correct gasket is a Multi-Layer-Steel (MLS) gasket. Aluminum and steel have different expansion rates. The continuous heat cycles destroy a fiber gasket and result in exhaust leaks. MLS gaskets will allow movement between the two metals and retain the seal.
Those close up actions shots makes me wish it was in 3D! Great video and always looking forward to the next shaper video
Adam, sounds like Phil is going to be a recurring customer, even though you said a while back that you really didn't want to do a lot of automotive work. But, it pays the bills and makes good videos too! That header looked like the manufacturer "forgot" the final machining step after the nice welds warped the crap out of the flange. Nice job!
He has done quite a few jobs for "Phil".
That universal table is awesome. I didn't realize you could adjust it in so many axis. Very versatile. The only bummer is that you gotta tram everything back in now. 😟
Tramming is easy enough on that shaper though.
When the shaper is going backwards across the ears of that flange, it sounds like it does when you are on I-10 going to New Orleans, driving over the expansion joints.
The heat cycling that thing saw shoulda' warped out most of the stress. A dead soft copper gasket and even torque on the fastners should keep it straight. Heavy cars /trucks with small engines put more heat on manifolds like that unevenly smashed composition gaskets just help warp it more. Good work Phil's a lucky guy to have a a machinest like you,ya its try it and see how well it works.
You only get one shot at stuff like this. You always do a fantastic job.