This is a topic that I run into often and that I feel is holding a lot of people back. What do you think? Content: 0:00 Intro 0:25 Modes - Are they solving the problem you want to solve? 0:49 What Skills to Develop 1:26 #1 How Modes Are Taught 2:12 The Pentatonic Modal approach 2:42 #2 How Does It Fit With The Music 3:36 Characteristic notes of a mode and the chords you use it on. 4:39 Understanding Chord Progressions? 5:10 #3 What Is Missing - Where do they fail 5:34 What to do instead. 6:28 That is actually playing modes 6:42 #4 A Better Solution 7:40 Rows of notes don't make you a better improviser 7:55 Like the video? Check out my Patreon Page.
Modes are just INTERVALS identification. FFS Stop MAKING EXCUSES or RETARDED Jurkins.. a maj3 or 5th...are still maj3 or 5th....I dont care how far above or below you play it from the root....oki doke All you're saying is you DONT KNOW YOUR SHIET...and you have a million and 1 excuses to not learn them....play the same damn II, V , I ...three chords over and over and over and over and over and over again..and call it some retarded crap as if it's something new..FFS
@@murrayrowley2900 Keys are just pitch there's 10-ea ( 7 notes scales) so you play a maj7 add #11...it could possible a Lydian ish..oki doke. Each scale have 7 each modes...you figure them out..dunn be lazy. I know them already.... Basic Triad are just every other note. aeo Maj7 Harmonic min dor maj7 Melodic min phy maj7 Harmonic min b2 mix maj7 Ionian loc maj7 Ion #6 dor b2 maj7 dor b5 maj7 dor #4 maj7 aeo b2 maj7 aeo b5 Maj7 aeo #4 Ma7 dor b2, #4 is the IV mode of Harmonic min b5 lyd dom b2 is the IV mode of Melodic min b5 Play BOTH = FULL Diminished H/W or W/H I personally dont really give a rats ass what you term it ..learn it or NOT the 10-ea ( 7 notes) diatonic scales..will give EVERY POSSIBLE 7 notes VARIATIONS within the 12 NOTES. Since they all have DIFFERENT INTERVALS..they'll also create DIFFERENT SOUNDs....KEEP it SIMPLE STUPID. the super duper alter RETARDED scale is just the VII mode of melodic min or Loc b4
Hi Jens: I agree with you concerning the comment playing the Major scale from mode to mode is a big huge waste of time. Modes to me have always been nothing more than identifiable scale degrees. Although there are many simple things out there that sound great, in this case more often the scale is the same on every chord. This is also true with simple Jazz., Chord progression D,G,C:) I can't think of any music that uses the modes like D to D anyways:) music has to breath, it has to flow no matter what style of music you play, this isn't true with only Jazz. In one piece of music I wrote myself, I am starting out with a diminished scale but then move quickly into two arpeggios and a Major scale and then a minor scale. Major scales and minor scales are safe ground to fall back on. A goal for any musician is to know where you are at any given moment and be able to react accordingly to any changes. You still have to put in the time, study, and effort. There are no shortcuts. Of an absolute truth I believe that your courses in Jazz are brilliant. That's the thing though, the word Jazz is a superlative with you. Your courses are wonderful for someone who only wants to learn Jazz. In my opinion is not a beginners course in music. Blues, Rock, and Classical music would be better. People who start out in your course are locking themselves up in a metaphoric Jazz cage from which there is no escape. I love music. With me music is superlative!
@@oneeyemonster3262 I can't even tell what point you're trying to make okie dokie...but you sound like a douche bag, maybe you should practice guitar less and interpersonal skills more? Okie dokie? 👍
Learning modes is not horrible advice, by a long shot. Modes provide an essential analytical framework for certain jazz concepts, and certain forms of jazz are entirely modal. Even in non-modal jazz, it’s helpful to think in terms of modal functions when analyzing the relationships between melody and harmony. It is true, however, that knowing modes is not the secret to good improvisation. Learning standard jazz vocabulary, transcribing, ear training and much more should accompany jazz theory studies.
"certain forms of jazz are entirely modal" but compared to the vast majority of Jazz this is a smidgin. Modes are not supposed to be used as an "analytical tool" to understand non modal jazz because this is simply serving more confusion which is conflation between modes and modality. How do modes provide a useful analytical framework for a solo over a ii v i where the player plays exclusively diatonic material in the home key? The player is using the parent scale (say C major) as a framework to approach chord tones with taste.
Also if you do decide to learn modes down the line. Don't learn them like this: C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phyrgian, F Lydian, etc Learn them like you should learn any other scale. Pick a mode and learn it in 12 keys. (Dorian as an example) C Dorian, F Dorian, Bb Dorian, etc etc around the circle That way you really internalize the sound of the scale, which is more important than the scale itself.
That's exactly how I learned them!! lol (C Ionian D Dorian.. etc..) Therefore, I know the patterns on the fretboard but i dont really have a good feel for the sound and function of each mode. Although I love mixolydian a LOT and use it frequently for its dreamy dominant 7th based sounds :)
This is exactly what I don't understand. Why is learning C Dorian differnt then learning key of A# major or key of G minor? I feel like they are all the same thing 😖!!!
@@jrodthompson7454 because it may help you to understand the mode as its own thing, and recognize them more easily than "ok, this is the C major scale but the tonal center is F, so mm... C ionian, D dorian, E phrygian..."
@@waltz251 when I try to do that it feels like the entire fretboard is shifting around and changing and I have to keep thinking 🤯!!! I do think u have a point though. I'm sure if u get the hang of it it can give u alot of control on all those what I call "finisher" notes. Sorry if that's a bad way to describe it I kind of make my own language up sometimes ☺...
When I started learning jazz I focused a lot on scales and I had a hard time using them in improv. For the last months I've been focusing on learning triads and connecting them and I can't tell you how much it improved my soloing. It also turns out a lot of famous themes are built around triads, with a few embelishments ; once you see it it's way easier to paraphrase the themes!
I never understood guitarists infatuation with modes. I remember Joe Pass saying he thinks either Major,Minor or Dominant. Period. That has always made sense to me. I do like your regular focus on learning chord arpeggios. I have incorporated arpeggiating the major scale into my practice regimen. It is definitely helping me to better see the notes on the fretboard and the notes in a chord. I am already incorporating this new knowledge into my melody construction and improvising. Its definitely working.
Don't get me started. Guitarists think of a scale being like a staircase and soling is just going up and down that stair case. Now that approach will not get you very far, so they think of modes as just having an arenol of scales to go up and down. (that doesn't get them much further) Trying to get that conception out of their heads can be a real challenge. Especially to guys who don't understand diatonic chords or even worse, they don't know their notes on the fret board.
@@JensLarsen This is so true! Wonderful advice and I thank you. There is actually an interview with Joe Pass on ytube where he says "'Please, please don't ask me about modes!!"' LOL The idea of modes seems interesting but basically, to me, just a list of (sort of) major scales...a little benign.
I find the modes too confusing - too much to think about - another layer to learn. Focusing on the target notes and arps is more straight forward and understandable.
it depends really. if you are playing on a tune like impressions, it's cool to superimpose 2 5's and play bebop lines, but it's also cool the change the color of the solo by playing, say, melodic minor over the minor chords, or harmonic minor, aoelian, dorian, harmonic minor, and so forth, which is where modal knowledge can come in handy. it's something to know how to do as an improviser, but you definitely should learn from transcribing and from playing over changes. learning scales and modes won't get you anywhere without putting in actual work over tunes.
Sometimes modes are confusing because they seem pointless. If you're playing C, Dm, G7 then the relevant modes just add up to C major all the way. Arpeggios give you so much more musically relevant information.
@@cliffb2454 That's really not true though, because if you play d dorian, then the g dominant bebop scale, then c major you are conveying the information much better than just playing c major. A lot of times people will play something like c lydian on the c chord to give it extra color as well. This is where modal knowledge comes in handy. Especially on minor ii V's you really can't just play one key the whole time because all the chords are pulling from different keys. for d-b5 you would play something like d locrian, then for G Vb9 you could play c harmonic minor, G altered, Ab whole half, etc. and for c - 7 you could play aoelian, melodic minor, etc. This is where modes really can come in handy. This is what i've seen from transcribing as well not just bullshitting you here.
I agree that for jazz improvisation thinking modes and scales isn’t practical to simply play them for improvising. It’s good info to know as a “back drop” of note choices to choose from. Nailing chord-tones in strategic places and decorating them in the language of jazz is much better. Mostly it’s how it’s taught in many colleges and conservatories is what’s the problem. There can be a practical application, but it’s harder to conceptualize. So they usually teach it in a simple way that’s not very practical. The chord-tones are the pillars. It’s the notes between the chord-tones from different choices of scales and modes that give us different flavors (or colors), so one has different options of different sounds to choose from. That’s how any scale should be looked at.
Most overrated concept in music is the theory of modes. We play them all the time using a major or minor scale. Use your ears and listen to solos and song you like and you pick it up. No reason to waste time with numbers and theory if you can't hear the melodies. Listen first.
I recently found this out by accident while i was improvising over a rather simple chord progression. I tried turning off the backing track and continue improvising while only imagining the chords in my head as they progressed. It taught me how important it is to play the notes in the chords compared to the whole scale, in order to hear what chords the improvisation follows. This video emphasized on that as well.
This video actually proofs modes are important. The opening solo is not just about chords Gmaj7 Gm7. The whole feel of it is captured by the specific choice of scale-modes G-2 F-1. Play D-4 Eb-3 along with it and you get a true clash. At 4:00, the Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 chord progression is labeled as C-3625, and the resulting solo sounds horrible. Of course. Try D-2 D-5 C-2 C-5. Conclusion: wrong mode -> horrible solo, right mode -> all set for a good solo.
I wholeheartedly agree that learning the modes of the major scale is a waste of time! Almost the only time I actually use a "mode" is using a single note from it. Like Chet Baker for instance, on his solo over bye bye black bird on the (I chord) Fmaj7, he drops a B natural in there just momentarily to give it the lydian flavor: ua-cam.com/video/3BSDVRIMeqc/v-deo.html and again here: ua-cam.com/video/3BSDVRIMeqc/v-deo.html and here: ua-cam.com/video/3BSDVRIMeqc/v-deo.html . I think using modes like this gives flavor, but I don't really think of the lydian scale per se'... more like I think of the chord with a #4 for color - and I'm sure that's also how Chet used it from the transcriptions I've done of his playing. For me that's the importance of the modes and I think studying different modes of a major scale is kind of a waste of time that could be better applied to learning harmony and using "modes" by recognizing the one note that gives the chord in question that 'sound' you are looking for.
B on an F chord is just a tritone - Pres was doing that before modes came into our vocabulary, and the beboppers were all over that sound. No need for modal analysis there.
@@SamMooreResonetrics whatever you want to call it is fine with me, but I hear that as a lydian sound regardless. My point was not to talk about the modal analysis so much as how they don't really have the return on time investment as some people feel they have to versus doing other things in order to better one's improvisation.
I'm almost 100% focused on chord changes when I'm improvising. I'm not well versed with modes although I know the patterns on the fretboard. My lifelong fascination is hearing unaccompanied single note lines clearly indicating chord movement. I love that!! So I always strive for that when I play but I still need to work on it more!!
I agree with much of what you’re saying. Some people glorify theory over music. Like a child learning a language, first they learn to communicate, much later they learn how to spell and the theory behind language.
Some of the best advice that I have ever been given for improvising was to play the notes of the chord on the beat, and then use the notes of the chords higher and lower than that chord as passing notes. e.g. Playing over the ii chord in the key of C, play notes from the arpeggio of D Minor (D-F-A) on the beat, and use notes from the arpeggios of C Maj (C-E-G) and E Minor (E-G-B) for passing notes. Remember some of the licks that you play, write them down, and then try to analyse your playing. That's when the head work really starts.
What's helped me was my teacher Jackie King taught me arpeggio playing... For each chord there 3 arpeggios, Am chord you can play an Am or D7,or Cmaj7 arpeggio...So there's a major, minor or dominant arpeggio for each chord... Listening to a lot of the early jazz guitarist they play this way... I spent years learning scales and modes. Arprggio playing helped me apply the scales to the chord. Now I have a better mix of arpeggios and scales over the chords...
Ed, I'm not sure I get your point on the 3 chords. I map out the notes in the arpeggio and see mostly 2notes in common. Not sure that the F# in the D7 will always work in the song. Sometimes surely, as a passing tone probably. Jens, perhaps you can shed some light on Ed's point?
Bob Bauer Well, the F# would give the A minor chord a “Dorian” flavor, so it’s like telling someone to play A-Dorian over Amin7. D7=D F# A C D = the 4th of A F# = major 6th A = tonic C = minor 3rd So mostly chord tones, the 4th which is a good passing note and the maj 6th which is the Dorian note. All in all, you’re way more likely to create something that sounds like music with a D7 arpeggio over Amin7, rather than playing straight A-Dorian.
There’s also a m7b5 aka half diminished, and an upper structure triad arp for every chord. For Am those would be F#m7b5 or Cm7b5 and Bbmaj/Bdim/Bm. If you want to go further down the rabbit hole there are also arpeggios drawn from subdominant minor chords that can sound very interesting as well, but at that point you are pretty much playing outside.
Thank you! I have long expected that there is a lot of overthinking in reference to “playing modes”. In essence, when are playing intentionally over the changes (emphasizing chord tones) within the appropriate major/minor scale/arpeggios, that is effectively modal playing without all the mental gymnastics.
Modes are NOT musical grammar. They are not necessary to learn and play great music. Great players and composers didn't need modes to create unforgettable songs and solos and neither do you.
I finally started working with the CAGED method a couple of weeks ago... with this little gem I just leveled up big time as a guitarist... just arpeggiate! Mind blown. Too simple. Thanks for sharing!
What I've come to realize recently is all I need to learn is the major scale in every key all across the fretboard. Then just play the correct major scale over any chord to give the sound of the mode you need. For example If I want to play A Phrygian I will just play on a F Major scale. A Mixyolydian = D major scale. Just target the chord tones.
@@JensLarsen well next step for me is to master the harmonic minor and melodic minor scale all over the fretboard. Then i will apply the same logic to the modes of those scales. Basically i will master a few "main" scales and not worry about the modes of each of those scales. It's just something i'm experimenting with though, it seems more logical to me to just think of the major scale (or the harmonic/melodic minor scale) the mode i will be playing is derived from and use that along with arpeggios that accent the important notes of that mode. Do you see any downsides to this approach? I've only recently thought of this and it sort of clicked for me.
nteresting! I'll try this method tomorrow, I just started learning about modes. By the way, can I ask you about your response to Jens' comment? I couldn't quite understand it. What do DmMaj7 and G#dim have to do with the harmonic and melodic minor scales ?
Yea it was a game changer for me and don't really hear anybody explain it that way, much easier imo. Those scales have different triads/chords and modes due to the different intervals. For example A Minor scale the first chord 7th chord would be A C E G (Amin7). For harmonic minor it would be A C E G# (Amin/maj7). I still do the same thing I just change that one note. So for A Minor I play C major scale, for A Harmonic minor I play C Major #5 @@Ice-dy6fi
Learning modes is not horrible, and the mention of thus may be click bait, because Jens of course knows all the modes (as does,or did Satriani, Yngwie, Via, Joe Pass, Metheny, Scolfield, Holdsworth, Coltrane, Davis and so many other great players)... so, what I'll say is, if you're interested in some of the "lingo" that you will hear some musicians use, both jazz and rock musicians, learning modes will allow you to know exactly what they mean when they talk about using "mixolydian, aeolian, phrygian" etc... it's language, and it's about understanding what people are talking about rather than feeling like a lesser musician when not knowing what is being discussed... when some one says "this song uses primarily "mixolydian" but also incorporates "dorian" and the flat 5th"... by knowing modes, you will instantly know what they mean in terms of flatted degrees etc... which I could describe here but, it's up to you... ...learn modes if you like, if you don't, yes, you still may be a very good guitarist, and you may actually already know some of these scales (as I did), but remember... even Jens, the master here (I mean that sincerely, he's a master) even jens knows instantly what is implied when someone says; "okay, during this major 12 bar blues I want a country flavored mixolydian based solo but with some minor blues incorporated as well to rock it up a bit." So, yes, interesting topic, and I for one replied, so bravo Jens! Please keep in mind, I have had students of punk, blues and alternative music that had no interest in learning modes, and I understood completely... i did not demand they learn the 7 modes and the harmonic minor scale etc, and i agree completely that a musician need not know what modes are to solo well etc... it's up to the individual... because you know for instance how many guitarists out there love yngwie, they read an interview with him and have no idea what he's talking about when he says phrygian or aeolian etc... even in interviews with the lead man of Metallica you'll read these words... so yeah, it's about language and all... I love your work and wish I could learn from you in person... thank you for all you do.
THANK YOU SO MUCH for this video. This was exactly what literally screw my mind in the beginning of my jazz studies. All the teachers saying you play scale x over chord y and I wondered even what that means because actually you don't play a mode or scale over one chord (of course in modal jazz you could say that). I would say it just offers you, let's say, a pool to pick out notes. "You play dorian about that II chord, than mixolydian oder V chord ... ". I still can hear that and it's just nonsense...
Jens is talking about music. Music is not a meritocracy (Adam Neely), no prizes for head knowledge but can you move people at a heart level? Modes evoke emotional responses..... the deviations from the major Ionian mode generate sounds which we associate emotionally....in all forms of music. Modes played technically may only touch the surface of this. Here's Rick Beato's simplest teaching on this topic which for me unravelled "modes" at the simplest level (in other videos he goes much deeper). ua-cam.com/video/8HJ5mBb9Pgo/v-deo.html
A great explanation of shortcomings of the 'mode per chord' approach. I once asked the great English jazz guitarist Adrian Ingram about this, and he said that if you know the major scale your already know the modes and that learning them again separately was redundant knowledge. The other great piece of flawed jazz teaching is the chord/scale approach, suggesting that each scale should be used over its associated chord (see for example Jamey Aebersold). There's a reason why people talk about playing OVER the changes or THROUGH the changes. That reason is what you are talking about here, outlining the harmonic movement through creating lines which reflect that. 'Mode per chord' and chord/scale approaches don't help with doing that, and also present an incredibly cumbersome memory burdon. Let's hear a good solo using these approaches over Cherokee.
I had to endure verbal abuse from some former teachers because that is exactly the gripe I've been having with modes for as long as I can think back: They didn't give me ANYTHING that felt or sounded useful, much less give me a curiosity to explore them deeper. This just to say I couldn't agree more in saying that knowing the modes is almost a complete waste of time and focuses on all the wrong things as you aptly state. (instead some of the concepts that you keeping stressing here are much more valuable, like eg. chord tones on strong beats, passing notes and enclosures, trills and chromaticism to connect them and using chord arpeggios as building blocks along with phrasing, a swing feel and dynamic expression, that's what gets us much quicker to sounding closer to those who set the bar for traditional and modern jazz, correct!)
Yeah I never liked the whole spiel "play A dorian over the Am and D mixolydian over the D7, then resolve to G major." All those modes use the same notes, so just think of the entire ii-V line as being in G! Much simpler!
Mick Goodrick proposes the modes as a set of notes one can use to learn all the „white keys“ on the guitar. From my own experience this kind of fretboard orientation is essential to understand where the notes are that one wants to use to play over a given chord. I fully agree that arpeggios or target notes are more important to solo over a chord progression. But as a prerequisite one needs to know where to spot the notes he wants to use on the fretboard - believe me I was fretboard blind for the longest time now so: know the chords, know what are the key notes of each of them and know where to find these very notes on the fretboard - only then it’s possible to link notes of changing chords together by a good sounding melody
@@FuegoJaguar yes, and arpeggios are modes too, but only include chord tones. But if you want to add color, you have to add other tones, and the ones from the same key would be your first choice, so now playing a full mode. There is no escape from modes, whether you admit it or not.
your right, it is funny how you have to know what he is talking about to understand him . Rick Beato Level 1 and Level 2 theory really cleared up any holes in my knowledge personally. I would definitely agree with Lars as far as thinking in Dominant Subdominant Tonic , but that is also how you write and analyze songs , it is the way music works . I personally think understanding sub Dominant and Dominant with pentatonic blues is important . the interchange of pentatonic is actually a theory Level above mapping out 7 note scales to know major pentatonic is a country sound if thinking of it as IV of Melodic Minor yet a Dominant sound if thought of as V7 mixolydian or V7 MM
So dont learn and memorize them? I never really did mess with them or understand how to use them all the way anyway.. I know what they are, starting on each different note of major scale.. Ok so what to do instead, that works better?
It all depends on the type of jazz you are playing. If you are playing Saga of Harrison Crabfeathers - mode work. And there are many more example. Also, jazz musicians often like to involve other traditions (say, Indian) and they are typically modal. So while I do agree with you, I think that modal jazz also has a place and its own beauty! Thanks!
Yep. I’m teaching a jazz improv class for music majors right now and after six weeks have yet to discuss scales or modes. Thanks for speaking the truth Jens!
What Jens is explaining is the reason I dreaded having to learn modes. I have learned more from this guy in the last 2 months than the previous 15 years, and I've just started!
Jens, this video is packed with so much great and practical advice. It's so easy to become confused with all these different scales and modes, especially if they're not helping your playing to be more musical. Making music is the whole point!
This is sensationalistic click-bait designed more to stir controversy than to actually help anyone play better. It's basically trying to de-bunk a myth that doesn't exist while overlooking all of the obvious ways that learning modes helps students of the guitar understand the fret-board. I don't disagree with the chord tone method at all, but the delivery of this as a rebuttal to the advice of learning modes is complete garbage.
How come so many people then agree and tell their own experience in the comments? I don't even have to point to other places where modes are taught this way, I can just stay on the video.
@@JensLarsen I don't see any responses that say "this didn't make sense to me until I saw your video" it's all people who already knew how to use modes and how to not use modes. My point is that the advice you are calling "horrible" you have completelg mis-interpreted. When people say to *start* by learning modes they mean the mode *scales* as a way to learn the fretboard, not that you are supposed to change key with every chord change when the chord changes don't change key. Framing this as a rebuttal is stupid, because you are only refuting your own mis-interpretation of what they meant
@@JensLarsen To put it another way - the people responding favorably, like you and I, know that you don't need to use the modes to play tonal music *after* you learn the patterns to play all the notes over the whole neck. But by dissing the idea of using modes to learn the fretboard in the first place, you're just hurting the development of new guitar players, all to get a shocking headline for your vlog and attract attention to yourself. Somewhere out there there is a young guitar player working on learning all of the scale patterns up and down the neck and using the mode names to learn them who sees your video and gets confused. You've hindered his progress, just to generate more clicks with your stupid headline. You should be ashamed of yourself.
I was never taken with the notion of modes in jazz in this context and I think it only serves to confuse. If the whole piece is in a mode then that is valid terminology.
I do Agree...The information that You Present Sir is so Wonderful...You are a wonderful instructor...thanks so very much..! It may be that some day I can get into Your Jazz Program..?
Outstanding content. Spot on advise. I use this approach for all styles and it works great. I only use modes for vamps and funk jams. That’s fun too. Great video.
Ok I would make a distinction between modes and scales.I think learning the scales first in position and then over the whole fretboard is a very good thing for everyone- especially if you say out loud the names of the notes and then the intervals ( like saying out loud 1,2 , minor third etc..) On the other hand the modes. If you learn the dorian mode it’s a sound that can emerge via a scale but also through only some notes and chords. But I understand what you are getting at - practicing the dorian scale with it 6 that gives away the 3 of the V chord ( in a 251 ) is not a good idea... I would recommend starting to learn all the arpeggios first🎸❤️
I’m new to jazz but I’ve been playing classical music most of my life, and modes are important. I can’t imagine being a creative musician without knowing Lydian, Myxolydian, and Dorian modes. These are very common in rock even if the players don’t know they’re playing modes. These are all useful resources.
But as I say in the video, that approach is not really helping you play a Jazz standard 🙂 and what knowing a mode really means in a practical situation is a different skill.
Jens Larsen If you were talking about studying Palestrinian counterpoint my agreement would be unreserved. But the reason I'm studying this stuff right now and watching videos like yours is precisely because I ran across a reference to tritone scales, which are another mode, this led to audio samples and Giant Steps, and I was hooked. I'm not disagreeing with you, really; to focus on something like Dorian mode is likely not as productive for someone learning jazz as focusing on comping and complex triadic chords but all practice is good practice, and the huge amount of my time I've spent practicing scales, mostly Ionian, has helped me immensely. FTR, I defer to your experience, I mostly play South American composers on classical guitar and have never owned an electric, and will probably never find people to play jazz with. Thanks, though, I WILL be practicing the samples in your video.
Catchy title! Charts > Modes. Your lesson however implies that you got the modes already? Why? How are you intuitively going to relate your chord based solo to the modes unless you know them. You always give challenging and thought provoking lessons. Thanks for moving me forward in this journey.
That is easy: don't think in modes, learn to understand tonal songs in the key they are in and stop splitting stuff up in isolated chords. That is not how the music sounds
Jens I wanted to say how grateful I am for your channel. I hope you realize how important your contribution to the world of music is! Jazz guitarists all over the world will be referring to your videos for years to come!
Hi Jens, music is the language of the soul and not the head! So i like your modes aversion, but what function has the blue hair ring at the nut of your guitat? Best wishes from germany Sina
Thanks Sina! It's hairband that I use as a mute for open strings, but it does not really do anything when it is behind the nut- I sometimes use it while recording or practicing legato.
Every lesson you post has my full interest, so so refreshing to hear your lessons from the melody angle rather than "OK you want to play A lydian, well here's the scale of E major, off you go,," a little bit like putting arm bands on a child putting him/her in the pool and saying just move your arms and legs about, there you are you're swimming,,, I think you've got a unique way of teaching and I for one have realised ive been wearing armbands in the pool of music for over 40 years of playing 👍thank you for your insights, valuable lessons
Ha, I was anticipating this subject for a video, because you have mentioned in a couple of videos that modes are not that useful for jazz. I fully agree with your point, hearing and spelling out the changes is the most useful way of looking at this kind of music. It's especially irritating in guitar community to hear about modes in the way you described in the video as if learning them opens up the world of music. They have their place sometimes though, I especially like the way that Frank Gambale showed modes in his VHS special. Almost like a tonality, if all the chord tones come from certain mode, the progression can be interpreted as of this mode. And it brings the flavor of the mode forward so one can get away with exploring the sound of that mode not venturing outside. PS Great shirt, Jens!
I have always been puzzled by why people insist on the modes - glad to hear someone like you say they will actually work against you! Unless you are Yngwie Malmsteen😂
Absolutely agree! Too often, modes are considered the crowning touches for playing solos...yet, the patterns are frequently taught without emphasis on the qualities of the chords at each degree of the scale. (It's not unlike teaching the musical staff, but not teaching where the notes fall on the guitar strings!) Playing any mode over an (Ionian) G tonic or chord will still sound like a G major scale. There needs to be more of an emphasis on the chords that are constructed on the degrees of the scales. It's not just a matter of remembering patterns and playing them straight through. Moving away from a particular degree demands reevaluation of one's approach (unless that particular degree is played for the duration, which would likely be dull). Music is mercurial. I'm a rock player. David Gilmour is my favorite guitarist. His focuses are melody and emotion. I feel that it's best to adopt such an approach.
I think Clapton is ashamed to play with Gilmour. That guy is impeccable. I swear I could hear him do a phrase turn on a forth suspended. " I'm like, what was that!". Every note he plays counts. Everyone wants to play lead and not establish a harmonic understanding. I hung up my electrics a long time ago and only now am I starting to understand what is going on. I think that Mick Taylor is another lead player who plays from a chordal framework. Anyway he's the guy I would like to emulate.
A courageous lesson flying in the face of convention. "Learn all your modes in every key" Another great video!! Go Jen's Go!! 1.000.000.000 subs coming soon:-)
I didn’t know “Learn all your modes in every key” was a convention. It’s a nonsense, as modes are never in a key. IE: if someone says to you, “For the V7 in C major, do G Mixolydian” they’re only calling C major two different names, one of them wrong. G Mixolydian has the tonic G, is not in the key of C, or G.
@@Civilizashum Well one of the definitions for convention is "a way in which something is usually done, especially within a particular area or activity" Since the modes are usually taught as rooted from the notes of the major scale 1 Ionian 2 dorian etc..G is commonly understood as the dominant chord of C Major. A ii V I in the key of C, would be commonly understood as D- G C. The relative modes dorian, Mixolydian , and Ionian would be given as examples for the scales that bare the proper diatonic harmony. So although modes can stand alone. The convention in this case is that they are members of a key family. Traditionally a dominant 7th chord would not be described as a "tonic" chord but rather the dominant of the tonic chord. But the beauty of thinking chromatically (non-diatonic) is you can do whatever your ear likes. Cheers.
Molt bon video per als meus interessos. M'hs agradat. Als meus 62 anys i provenint de la guitarra clàssica, simultanejant, millor dit, no tinc temps a gastar en els modes grecs. En canvi, el que tu ens ensenyes m'interessa. Moltes gràcies, Jens
I'm sure you know about Rick Beato's youtube channel Everything Music - he does teach the modes and seems to use them as a kick-off for composing, although he also improvises with them. He said as a teenager he became aware of and interested in the modes because of the solos of Peter Frampton - Beato analyzed some of these and showed how they were modal. Later, he had Frampton on his show and Frampton said he had not consciously used modes or even known about them, but he'd listened to a lot of 60's jazz guitarists and must have just picked up that sound by ear.
Its seems to me modes are used more in rock and fusion music. I love all music. As a working guitarist, you get requests to do a tune by Joe Satrianii, George Benson, Stevie Ray , etc. Knowing how and when to use modes keeps me workin! Good luck to everyone....
That makes sense. Jazz music changed from bop to blues based music in the 60s and 70s. When the bass line stays in one key, you need to sound interesting. Whether its Satriani style modes, Scofield s interval madness or Scott Henderson/ Allan Holdsworth whateveryoucallit! Take your pick!
Rick Beato also emphasises the use of chord tones on the strong beats, which he defines as a characteristic that is common to all good music, regardless of the genre.
So can you write a solo with this method like shredding vai satch ect? but i allso realize after 18 years of playing music that you will learn more with jazz and it is right what your saying i agree because as i found i was missing real information about chord progressions and allso being a django fan i had to learn from jazz so much grate things to be learning in jazz and i am allso into rock but after being influenced i needed real knolledge so ive seen this is the way faward to getting better thanks jens .
I'd like to reflect on Matt's comments. I must admit as click bait this is genius. But I don't think that was Len's intention (or was it?). Either way it has helped me understand the difference between Jazz and Rock on a technical level. Which is really helpful. From what I can gather by watching this video and reading some of the highly intelligent responses beneath. Rock emphasises the musical value of the sound 'feel' of any particular mode within in a single key without overly worrying about the chord notes of the progression. Jazz on the other hand does emphasise the notes in the chord progression and the extra notes within that scale are used as passing tones and extra notes outside the scale (altered tones to add interesting colour or dissonance) added to those chords. And the anticipation of the next chord. I think Len's was coming from an entirely Jazz perspective but the title will make Rock musicians click on it to find out what he is talking about. Music is magic. It can be approached from so many different angles it makes you dizzy. I suppose at the end of the day it depends what music you are in to.
@@JensLarsen yes, but ear training first. It begins and ends with the ear. You have a sharp ear, you are a force to be reckoned with. If you have theory without the sharp ear, you have a car without an engine. But if you have a sharp ear and theory, you are a weapon.
Nice video! I find it very useful to think of it in terms of what every of the twelve notes sounds in relation to the chord you are playing on. For exemple: over a V7 I might want to emphasis any note as long as I land on a chord tone on the strong beats. That way I can create a sort of hierarchy of which notes are important, which ones feel rested, which ones add color etc. It is nice to practice this stuff over a vamp at first I think to really be able to listen.
You are never not smarter for learning something new ;-) Modes are a tool. Like any of the tools we use to create music, it's no more difficult or easy to learn and apply than any of the other tools out there.
Chord tones vs scales/modes is a such an interesting debate. For me the chord tones are more important but the two sit together if you want to say something really interesting , which you eventually conclude. You have to be able to outline the changes, it’s important for others band members and gives soloing a direction. I don’t have a problem with people teaching the modes as long as they stress the chord tones are the go to notes. I think people often don’t do the level of work required to get these things down properly in all keys, eg knowing the notes in common chord types in all keys. Personally for me the modes are like flavours or colours and things to call upon when the progression sees fit. I kind of feel that your approach misses the wider picture, I get that the chord tones are essential but it’s a limited approach that whilst it makes it easier for someone to learn they still have to do the scale work at some point. Things have to be played until they sit in our unconscious. I’ve tried just the chord tone approach with a few students and they often get bored (despite there being lots of possibilities) Learning jazz can never be an exact science and I love seeing all these different approaches. Have you looked at the book Building a jazz vocabulary? This has some interesting ideas.
There is nothing wrong with teaching modes. There are just some bad teaching out there. It depends more on how you look at them. Their ralation to chords are important. Knowing the modes of melodic and harmonic minor is very useful for constructing chords and understand the full picture. This also depends on the students level. There are more to "Jazz" than standard tunes and their harmonic structure. Frank Gambale has some nice stuff about this topic. And you dont hear the coulors of the modes before you play them from the same rootnote(every mode starting from the same note). I of course agree that you should start with the chordtones and a melodic focus when learning standards. Its just not the whole picture. UA-cam videos like this dont need such black and white headlines.
Modes are still helpful in context. Its way more than just d to d is Dorian . I agree that it's way beyond that. But understanding modes is very helpful non the less. When it comes to jazz its all about chord changes but when it comes to rock its about lines. I love all good music jazz and fusion being one of my favorites. But when it comes to teaching theory i always teach modes and why they exist to begin with. All functioning from the major scale. Thus why their called church modes. Of coarse there's alot more modes. Using only whole steps, half steps, and whole in a half steps there is 33modes . that understanding is crucial i believe. Ive said alot im sorry for being long winded but understanding the 7 church modes is only the beginning. Thanks
I’m glad you specified “jazz”. I’ve taught hundreds of students and I find they are very receptive to learning the major and minor chords, then introducing how simply changing one or two notes makes learning modes easy. It’s just a building block for learning
While that is true, then most music is in a key, and learning to actually hear it in a key and not as a series of modes next to each other would probably help them a lot when it comes to ear-training which in turn will help them with a ton of other things on the instrument and in theory.
But aren’t modes used to get out of the key into a certain mode with a specific sound? I’m trying to play mixolidian with a sharp 4th on the V7 chord from autumn leaves. And indeed it’s very difficult to make the whole scale sound good.
I think learning the tonality of each mode is good but just learning them as new scales and fingerings is walking backwards because as long as you can connect every major scale then starting on a different root note or emphasizing that modal root note makes the solos more interesting. I am learning from your stuff though so I will watch more...thanks for spending the time to make these videos.
Great lesson. Big takeaways are that there are better ways to learn the fretboard than learning modes, and modes alone don't make melodies. Focus on playing through changes and arpeggios removes a thinking step when connecting modes over chords.
I do all my composing by ear, largely influenced by all the music I've heard over the years. If I like the sound, I just stop there and play it. Then I can transcribe later and figure out why it works. Even though I studied music theory for a few years, I don't even think about it, I just compose and improvise by feel for the most fun and unique effects. When I get into 'book modes' I just get a little antsy and bored.
I was told this once kind of late in my learning, but it helped a lot to free me up, "It's all the same song, and you are only a half step away from the 'right' note." Think about that for a bit, it saved me from overthinking everything. Yes, you need to know your scales, but in the 80s they started making us too fixated on them.
My formal training is in classical but I also play rock and fusion. I agree with you. People tend to get bogged down in mode shapes. My rock/fusion instructor once gave me a simple chart with 2 measures of 4/4 with one chord per 2 measures. He said I could make a melody using R-3-5-R or R-3-5-7 (if it was a 7 chord of any kind). I couldn't repeat any of those notes and had to intentionally play notes that didn't belong to any pre-thought out scale. It turned out hitting those chord tones in the right spots, even with "wrong" notes in between, sounded much better than just playing up and down some scale or mode. It's so critical to get those chord tones to really enmesh your melody with the harmony. You can learn modes later and really get the flavors out but learning chord tones is so important. Also, if you know a major scale and minor scale you basically already know all of the modes. People kinda forget that sometimes haha.
Excellent lesson...not interested in jazz by the way but ever since i realised i wanted...fretboard freedom i always knew the key was arpeggios basically they are the...soloing chords in my mind thats why you have to learn them in all positions possible....starting with the first,second,third etc etc finger...going towards the bridge,going towards the nut, on one string,two...six....until its second nature.....
The mistake is how the mode is learned. Modes are a source of chords, 3- 4 note interval combinations/patterns... which in turn imply other scales/ modes.. leading to alternative chords, or intervallic patterns. The key to using them is to look at what they yield in terms of smaller units and their implications. Even without a given melody at the outset (thinking Herbie Hancock's early modal experiments) the object should be working with smaller note groupings /units to compose one on the go. You cant do that with stepwise lines of notes alone. You have to work on motifs, rests, long v short note values, rhythms etc. Then by reducing your melody to the most important tones/ and rhythmic character you're free too build around those chromatically or with other devices like tetrachords embellishments (things like appoggiaturas, enclosures etc.)..anything other than 7 note modes. It's a bit like reharmonizing on the fly. the problem is your accompaniment has to leave things open or ambiguous to accommodate that. One of the problems of chord to scale thinking is that it locks the beginning improviser into the wrong mindset of thinking that because you're playing harmonically in agreement with the accompanist that you're somehow making music.. not necessarily!! And anyway why would you want to agree with the accompaniment all the time? thats boring.
I feel like modes should be taught first. I kind of get what ur saying but honestly don't fully understand how it works that way. Seems like u would constantly have to pay attention to what ur doing and where ur at. Seems impossible. Just Like making slap bass sound good 😔...
I think you might be at a level where you can't tell the difference. Of course you want to know where you are in the bar or in the song, but you should not have to think about it, it should be like driving a car or riding a bicycle. Just stick with it, it will come :)
@@JensLarsen I just wish someone could show me progressions within the melododic minor that don't sound like crap and were to stay away from. This Scale doesn't act like the other ones it seems. At least in terms of mode I guess but like I said I'm kind of lost 🙃.
Having skimmed through some of the comments, I think what I would say about this that I would hope might bridge some of the gap is that knowing all of the modes in all keys is helpful when you are an ADVANCED player, but as someone who is less experienced and just trying to navigate a rapid set of chord changes and play something semi-meaningful, it can be better FIRST to learn chord tones. I do think it's absolutely essential, in rock, jazz, whatever style, to know the notes in a given chord! I think that skill comes before knowing all of the scales and modes, unless you're specifically playing a MODAL piece of music where the chord rarely changes. Then obviously, knowing that mode, in that key, is necessary. I think there's probably an important distinction to be made in how much time a player is able to devote, and to what level of playing they aspire, in assessing the value of these different approaches. If you want to be a virtuoso, learn it all. If you just want to get out and jam or play some bar gigs and you need to sound competent but not virtuosic, learn the basic skills for the style you want to play (and here Jens is focusing on being able to play over jazz standards, which typically have rather rapid chord changes, and are not modal), and then build from there. So maybe the title of the video should be something like: "Learn the Modes FIRST!" Is Horrible Advice - Learn This First Instead (My background: I was a music major in college, 20+ years ago, at a place where this kind of theory was pretty much completely absent. We had jazz, and I was in it, but it was a classically-focused department. Music majors there, at the time, would generally either go on to grad school or to public school teaching. I became a web developer.)
I agree with you in terms of not thinking modally over functional chord progressions, but I disagree with not teaching guitar students the “modal patterns” on the guitar, even before learning how to play jazz. With guitar specifically, we tend to learn modes as different patterns on the guitar, but really any of those patterns can be any of the modes, just depends on context. What you’re really teaching is the different positions of the major scale for example on the guitar, and this is still extremely fundamental stuff in terms of developing fretboard knowledge for developing guitarists, and without it you will be missing a lot of the puzzle. The problem is that once students learn the patterns this is what they think about in terms of their improv, and that , I will agree with you, is not a good aproAch. I do also think though, that even if you were thinking about arpeggios, that’s still not the main thing that will create nice lines. Rhythm and phrasing and timing should come before anything else in my opinion.
I managed to learn the major scale just fine without having modal names for the positions, so has a lot of my students and 99% of my colleagues. I find that a terrible habit, often very confusing and misleading, and as I mentioned completely unnecessary.
Jens Larsen I hear you. I think we agree that learning the positions is fundamental, whether you originally learned them as a single major scale or different modal patterns that could be any mode depending on context. Both perspectives should lead to the same end result of developing fretboard knowledge. And I do think you are spot on when it comes to thinking about the arpeggios over chord changes. I do also think though, like I said before, that the harmonic content alone, although important, is not really what makes a good phrase. It’s really just the flavor, but recommending that people think more chordally as opposed to modally or scalery is correct, so keep up the good work!
I'm actually in the opposite position. I knew from day 1 that modes offer an endless number of opportunities if used correctly and did not water it down to "different starting position on the fretboard", and had been avoiding it until I found a teacher. And then I needed to read a real textbook. The jazz theory book by Mark Levine introduces modes on page 20 lol, and once I wrapped my head around it, modes really blew my mind. The lydian mode and the #11, all those b9s, etc. are just fascinating to me. I wish I didn't avoid learning modes earlier.
I agree. I learned the modes and then college was much more jazz oriented. The modes didn't help me and I eventually noticed how jazz is connected more to individual chords and changing key centers.
@@JensLarsen Thankj you Jens. People forget that the guitar is a CHORDAL INSTRUMENT! I recently was dissed by two well know YT and FB so called teachers. I found it amazing that they could not recognize that something like an Am7b6 chord analyzes as an Dm7 form. All you had to do was take the same note collection and play it in the 3rd pos and you had the same sound. Its amazing what passes for jazz guitar these days. Just an old dude sounding off here. Thanks Man.
You are a brave man Jens! I guess it's no surprise that many people aren't capable of nuanced thinking - something that's required if one is to gain any understanding in a subject such as this. Seems like some people simply must insist that you're outright rejecting modes no matter how much you've tried to clarify your statements. One person even went to great lengths making the case that Joe Pass taught modality How sad is that? He's not even around to defend himself... I think Pat Metheny would agree with you - in order to access where a student was at in their ability to play over changes, he would ask them to solo using chord tones only. Certainly not the only approach but if they couldn't do it, they didn't need to worry about modes yet. Thank you for your great work sir!
Yeah, sometimes it is like that. But then again, it is a touchy topic so I guess I have to roll with the punches (I guess that is the expression :) ) A little resistance is good for the soul!
I found the modes so confusing until I changed the way I look at them. A mode is just a major scale played at a different place. For instance A mixolidian is actually a D major scale played starting at A. Mixolidian is the fifth and if you are starting with A then that is the fifth of D. So if you know how to play a major scale at different places on the fretboard then you know the modes. (Sounds easier than it is but works for me).
That is correct! But thats one way of applying them. There are 2 ways to apply them: literally and figuratively. The one you are talking about is literally. To use them figuratively is like speaking multiple languages in 1 conversation and still make sense.
So true, but what when I want to play very fast? Do I mix the various arpeggios (E.g.: IVmaj.7=Fmaj.7, Am7, Dm7) passing notes of the scale and chromatic notes, as well as melodic motives with a combination thereof?
While I understand what ‘modes’ are, it never made sense to me when I’d hear people say “So-and-so plays in the Dorian mode…..and Whatshisname plays in Ionian….” When I play, I determine the key….and I ‘see’ the grid that contains the notes of that key. Within that grid are ALL of the modes. So the concept of playing in any one particular mode never quite clicked with me. Why focus in one area of a key??
Different feel. Take A minor(Aeolian) and C major(Ionian) for example. They contain the same exact notes but they have a completely different feel to them. Dorian is very similar to natural minor(Aeolian) in terms of intervals, but the 6th note is raised a half step, which gives melodies that use the 6th a slightly different feel.
Ahh I know very well that modes are essential to building theory and possibilities, but this does give me more insight and variation. I wish for more knowledge indeed! Great video as always!
RC32, I'd suggest you start with 1 simple 7 note scale in one spot (in addition to Jen's advice). Find each chord arpeggio in only those 7 notes. Then start to reach out around that to complete the chords that could only be arpeggiated, not chorded. This really helps me to learn where each chord is, compared to the others in a key. It's a beginner step that I had to learn after decades of doing it wrong.
@@RC32Smiths01 Glad it helps! Do a scale in different spots and start on different strings, you'll quickly see that it is all almost the same everywhere, but mind that second string as it is off by a half step (semitone) from the G string. Try to arp out each chord in a key on 1 string as well, as this will fill a similar role while teaching you to quickly move across the neck to anywhere. Keep switching strings and keys as you progress. Mix the 2 ideas together also.
I think you’re exactly right about learning modes. I’ve always had a tough time memorizing modes and giving them a lot of attention because the endeavor seems aimless. What you’re suggesting in this vid make a lot more sense to me.
I''ve been improvising for a long time and haven't found modes to be of any real practical use. I like to focus on hitting chord tones and extend chord tones (for example, playing the dim. 7th and 9th of a major traid). It's good to have someone like you recognize this approach.
This is a topic that I run into often and that I feel is holding a lot of people back. What do you think?
Content:
0:00 Intro
0:25 Modes - Are they solving the problem you want to solve?
0:49 What Skills to Develop
1:26 #1 How Modes Are Taught
2:12 The Pentatonic Modal approach
2:42 #2 How Does It Fit With The Music
3:36 Characteristic notes of a mode and the chords you use it on.
4:39 Understanding Chord Progressions?
5:10 #3 What Is Missing - Where do they fail
5:34 What to do instead.
6:28 That is actually playing modes
6:42 #4 A Better Solution
7:40 Rows of notes don't make you a better improviser
7:55 Like the video? Check out my Patreon Page.
Modes are just INTERVALS identification. FFS
Stop MAKING EXCUSES or RETARDED Jurkins..
a maj3 or 5th...are still maj3 or 5th....I dont care how far above or below
you play it from the root....oki doke
All you're saying is you DONT KNOW YOUR SHIET...and you have a million
and 1 excuses to not learn them....play the same damn II, V , I ...three chords
over and over and over and over and over and over again..and call it some
retarded crap as if it's something new..FFS
@@oneeyemonster3262 do you have a link to some of your own more advanced music? I'd love to check it out.
@@murrayrowley2900 Keys are just pitch
there's 10-ea ( 7 notes scales)
so you play a maj7 add #11...it could possible a Lydian ish..oki doke.
Each scale have 7 each modes...you figure them out..dunn be lazy.
I know them already....
Basic Triad are just every other note.
aeo Maj7 Harmonic min
dor maj7 Melodic min
phy maj7 Harmonic min b2
mix maj7 Ionian
loc maj7 Ion #6
dor b2 maj7
dor b5 maj7
dor #4 maj7
aeo b2 maj7
aeo b5 Maj7
aeo #4 Ma7
dor b2, #4 is the IV mode of Harmonic min b5
lyd dom b2 is the IV mode of Melodic min b5
Play BOTH = FULL Diminished H/W or W/H
I personally dont really give a rats ass what you term it ..learn it or NOT
the 10-ea ( 7 notes) diatonic scales..will give EVERY POSSIBLE
7 notes VARIATIONS within the 12 NOTES.
Since they all have DIFFERENT INTERVALS..they'll also create DIFFERENT SOUNDs....KEEP it SIMPLE STUPID.
the super duper alter RETARDED scale is just the VII mode of melodic min
or Loc b4
Hi Jens: I agree with you concerning the comment playing the Major scale from mode to mode is a big huge waste of time. Modes to me have always been nothing more than identifiable scale degrees. Although there are many simple things out there that sound great, in this case more often the scale is the same on every chord. This is also true with simple Jazz., Chord progression D,G,C:) I can't think of any music that uses the modes like D to D anyways:) music has to breath, it has to flow no matter what style of music you play, this isn't true with only Jazz. In one piece of music I wrote myself, I am starting out with a diminished scale but then move quickly into two arpeggios and a Major scale and then a minor scale. Major scales and minor scales are safe ground to fall back on. A goal for any musician is to know where you are at any given moment and be able to react accordingly to any changes. You still have to put in the time, study, and effort. There are no shortcuts. Of an absolute truth I believe that your courses in Jazz are brilliant. That's the thing though, the word Jazz is a superlative with you. Your courses are wonderful for someone who only wants to learn Jazz. In my opinion is not a beginners course in music. Blues, Rock, and Classical music would be better. People who start out in your course are locking themselves up in a metaphoric Jazz cage from which there is no escape. I love music. With me music is superlative!
@@oneeyemonster3262 I can't even tell what point you're trying to make okie dokie...but you sound like a douche bag, maybe you should practice guitar less and interpersonal skills more? Okie dokie? 👍
This is a great lesson, Jens! Thanks 🙏
Thank you very much, Steve! Compliments from a colleague are always special!
Wow both legends
Learning modes is not horrible advice, by a long shot. Modes provide an essential analytical framework for certain jazz concepts, and certain forms of jazz are entirely modal. Even in non-modal jazz, it’s helpful to think in terms of modal functions when analyzing the relationships between melody and harmony. It is true, however, that knowing modes is not the secret to good improvisation. Learning standard jazz vocabulary, transcribing, ear training and much more should accompany jazz theory studies.
"certain forms of jazz are entirely modal" but compared to the vast majority of Jazz this is a smidgin. Modes are not supposed to be used as an "analytical tool" to understand non modal jazz because this is simply serving more confusion which is conflation between modes and modality. How do modes provide a useful analytical framework for a solo over a ii v i where the player plays exclusively diatonic material in the home key? The player is using the parent scale (say C major) as a framework to approach chord tones with taste.
Also if you do decide to learn modes down the line. Don't learn them like this:
C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phyrgian, F Lydian, etc
Learn them like you should learn any other scale. Pick a mode and learn it in 12 keys. (Dorian as an example)
C Dorian, F Dorian, Bb Dorian, etc etc around the circle
That way you really internalize the sound of the scale, which is more important than the scale itself.
Anakin Dey
Great advice.
It is more about the sound than the scale.
That's exactly how I learned them!! lol (C Ionian D Dorian.. etc..) Therefore, I know the patterns on the fretboard but i dont really have a good feel for the sound and function of each mode. Although I love mixolydian a LOT and use it frequently for its dreamy dominant 7th based sounds :)
This is exactly what I don't understand.
Why is learning C Dorian differnt then learning key of A# major or key of G minor?
I feel like they are all the same thing 😖!!!
@@jrodthompson7454 because it may help you to understand the mode as its own thing, and recognize them more easily than "ok, this is the C major scale but the tonal center is F, so mm... C ionian, D dorian, E phrygian..."
@@waltz251 when I try to do that it feels like the entire fretboard is shifting around and changing and I have to keep thinking 🤯!!!
I do think u have a point though. I'm sure if u get the hang of it it can give u alot of control on all those what I call "finisher" notes.
Sorry if that's a bad way to describe it I kind of make my own language up sometimes ☺...
When I started learning jazz I focused a lot on scales and I had a hard time using them in improv. For the last months I've been focusing on learning triads and connecting them and I can't tell you how much it improved my soloing. It also turns out a lot of famous themes are built around triads, with a few embelishments ; once you see it it's way easier to paraphrase the themes!
I never understood guitarists infatuation with modes.
I remember Joe Pass saying he thinks either Major,Minor or Dominant. Period.
That has always made sense to me.
I do like your regular focus on learning chord arpeggios.
I have incorporated arpeggiating the major scale into my practice regimen.
It is definitely helping me to better see the notes on the fretboard and the notes in a chord.
I am already incorporating this new knowledge into my melody construction and improvising.
Its definitely working.
That is so great to hear! Thank you!
Don't get me started. Guitarists think of a scale being like a staircase and soling is just going up and down that stair case. Now that approach will not get you very far, so they think of modes as just having an arenol of scales to go up and down. (that doesn't get them much further) Trying to get that conception out of their heads can be a real challenge. Especially to guys who don't understand diatonic chords or even worse, they don't know their notes on the fret board.
@@johnnyx9892 Wise words !
@@JensLarsen This is so true! Wonderful advice and I thank you. There is actually an interview with Joe Pass on ytube where he says "'Please, please don't ask me about modes!!"' LOL The idea of modes seems interesting but basically, to me, just a list of (sort of) major scales...a little benign.
I’m ok with That ...😊
I find the modes too confusing - too much to think about - another layer to learn. Focusing on the target notes and arps is more straight forward and understandable.
Exactly :)
it depends really. if you are playing on a tune like impressions, it's cool to superimpose 2 5's and play bebop lines, but it's also cool the change the color of the solo by playing, say, melodic minor over the minor chords, or harmonic minor, aoelian, dorian, harmonic minor, and so forth, which is where modal knowledge can come in handy. it's something to know how to do as an improviser, but you definitely should learn from transcribing and from playing over changes. learning scales and modes won't get you anywhere without putting in actual work over tunes.
I've found that thinking about target notes is the best advice I've ever been given about playing jazz solos
Sometimes modes are confusing because they seem pointless. If you're playing C, Dm, G7 then the relevant modes just add up to C major all the way. Arpeggios give you so much more musically relevant information.
@@cliffb2454 That's really not true though, because if you play d dorian, then the g dominant bebop scale, then c major you are conveying the information much better than just playing c major. A lot of times people will play something like c lydian on the c chord to give it extra color as well. This is where modal knowledge comes in handy. Especially on minor ii V's you really can't just play one key the whole time because all the chords are pulling from different keys. for d-b5 you would play something like d locrian, then for G Vb9 you could play c harmonic minor, G altered, Ab whole half, etc. and for c - 7 you could play aoelian, melodic minor, etc. This is where modes really can come in handy. This is what i've seen from transcribing as well not just bullshitting you here.
I suscribe every word. Took me years to realize this so I'm happy to see that I'm not crazy. Thanks for your video, you have a new follower
I agree that for jazz improvisation thinking modes and scales isn’t practical to simply play them for improvising. It’s good info to know as a “back drop” of note choices to choose from. Nailing chord-tones in strategic places and decorating them in the language of jazz is much better. Mostly it’s how it’s taught in many colleges and conservatories is what’s the problem. There can be a practical application, but it’s harder to conceptualize. So they usually teach it in a simple way that’s not very practical. The chord-tones are the pillars. It’s the notes between the chord-tones from different choices of scales and modes that give us different flavors (or colors), so one has different options of different sounds to choose from. That’s how any scale should be looked at.
Most overrated concept in music is the theory of modes. We play them all the time using a major or minor scale. Use your ears and listen to solos and song you like and you pick it up. No reason to waste time with numbers and theory if you can't hear the melodies. Listen first.
I recently found this out by accident while i was improvising over a rather simple chord progression. I tried turning off the backing track and continue improvising while only imagining the chords in my head as they progressed. It taught me how important it is to play the notes in the chords compared to the whole scale, in order to hear what chords the improvisation follows. This video emphasized on that as well.
Exactly! That is much more useful to work on!
This video actually proofs modes are important. The opening solo is not just about chords Gmaj7 Gm7. The whole feel of it is captured by the specific choice of scale-modes G-2 F-1. Play D-4 Eb-3 along with it and you get a true clash. At 4:00, the Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 chord progression is labeled as C-3625, and the resulting solo sounds horrible. Of course. Try D-2 D-5 C-2 C-5. Conclusion: wrong mode -> horrible solo, right mode -> all set for a good solo.
IO totally agree with you Jens. Modes are basically good on static harmiony on ly.
This is the information I wish someone had pulled me aside and told me when I was 18.
Thank you 🙂 I know what you mean
I wholeheartedly agree that learning the modes of the major scale is a waste of time! Almost the only time I actually use a "mode" is using a single note from it. Like Chet Baker for instance, on his solo over bye bye black bird on the (I chord) Fmaj7, he drops a B natural in there just momentarily to give it the lydian flavor: ua-cam.com/video/3BSDVRIMeqc/v-deo.html and again here: ua-cam.com/video/3BSDVRIMeqc/v-deo.html and here: ua-cam.com/video/3BSDVRIMeqc/v-deo.html . I think using modes like this gives flavor, but I don't really think of the lydian scale per se'... more like I think of the chord with a #4 for color - and I'm sure that's also how Chet used it from the transcriptions I've done of his playing. For me that's the importance of the modes and I think studying different modes of a major scale is kind of a waste of time that could be better applied to learning harmony and using "modes" by recognizing the one note that gives the chord in question that 'sound' you are looking for.
Yes, exactly! Use them as a musical flavour and in a context where they have meaning.
B on an F chord is just a tritone - Pres was doing that before modes came into our vocabulary, and the beboppers were all over that sound. No need for modal analysis there.
@@SamMooreResonetrics whatever you want to call it is fine with me, but I hear that as a lydian sound regardless. My point was not to talk about the modal analysis so much as how they don't really have the return on time investment as some people feel they have to versus doing other things in order to better one's improvisation.
I'm almost 100% focused on chord changes when I'm improvising. I'm not well versed with modes although I know the patterns on the fretboard. My lifelong fascination is hearing unaccompanied single note lines clearly indicating chord movement. I love that!! So I always strive for that when I play but I still need to work on it more!!
I agree with much of what you’re saying. Some people glorify theory over music. Like a child learning a language, first they learn to communicate, much later they learn how to spell and the theory behind language.
Some of the best advice that I have ever been given for improvising was to play the notes of the chord on the beat, and then use the notes of the chords higher and lower than that chord as passing notes. e.g. Playing over the ii chord in the key of C, play notes from the arpeggio of D Minor (D-F-A) on the beat, and use notes from the arpeggios of C Maj (C-E-G) and E Minor (E-G-B) for passing notes. Remember some of the licks that you play, write them down, and then try to analyse your playing. That's when the head work really starts.
What's helped me was my teacher Jackie King taught me arpeggio playing... For each chord there 3 arpeggios, Am chord you can play an Am or D7,or Cmaj7 arpeggio...So there's a major, minor or dominant arpeggio for each chord... Listening to a lot of the early jazz guitarist they play this way... I spent years learning scales and modes. Arprggio playing helped me apply the scales to the chord. Now I have a better mix of arpeggios and scales over the chords...
Arpeggios are indeed easier to make music with than a scale.
thank you for sharing, that thought had occurred to me the other day!
Ed, I'm not sure I get your point on the 3 chords. I map out the notes in the arpeggio and see mostly 2notes in common. Not sure that the F# in the D7 will always work in the song. Sometimes surely, as a passing tone probably. Jens, perhaps you can shed some light on Ed's point?
Bob Bauer Well, the F# would give the A minor chord a “Dorian” flavor, so it’s like telling someone to play A-Dorian over Amin7.
D7=D F# A C
D = the 4th of A
F# = major 6th
A = tonic
C = minor 3rd
So mostly chord tones, the 4th which is a good passing note and the maj 6th which is the Dorian note. All in all, you’re way more likely to create something that sounds like music with a D7 arpeggio over Amin7, rather than playing straight A-Dorian.
There’s also a m7b5 aka half diminished, and an upper structure triad arp for every chord. For Am those would be F#m7b5 or Cm7b5 and Bbmaj/Bdim/Bm. If you want to go further down the rabbit hole there are also arpeggios drawn from subdominant minor chords that can sound very interesting as well, but at that point you are pretty much playing outside.
Thank you! I have long expected that there is a lot of overthinking in reference to “playing modes”. In essence, when are playing intentionally over the changes (emphasizing chord tones) within the appropriate major/minor scale/arpeggios, that is effectively modal playing without all the mental gymnastics.
Modes are NOT musical grammar. They are not necessary to learn and play great music. Great players and composers didn't need modes to create unforgettable songs and solos and neither do you.
I finally started working with the CAGED method a couple of weeks ago... with this little gem I just leveled up big time as a guitarist... just arpeggiate! Mind blown. Too simple. Thanks for sharing!
What I've come to realize recently is all I need to learn is the major scale in every key all across the fretboard. Then just play the correct major scale over any chord to give the sound of the mode you need. For example If I want to play A Phrygian I will just play on a F Major scale. A Mixyolydian = D major scale. Just target the chord tones.
What do you do with DmMaj7 or G#dim?
@@JensLarsen well next step for me is to master the harmonic minor and melodic minor scale all over the fretboard. Then i will apply the same logic to the modes of those scales. Basically i will master a few "main" scales and not worry about the modes of each of those scales.
It's just something i'm experimenting with though, it seems more logical to me to just think of the major scale (or the harmonic/melodic minor scale) the mode i will be playing is derived from and use that along with arpeggios that accent the important notes of that mode. Do you see any downsides to this approach? I've only recently thought of this and it sort of clicked for me.
nteresting! I'll try this method tomorrow, I just started learning about modes.
By the way, can I ask you about your response to Jens' comment? I couldn't quite understand it. What do DmMaj7 and G#dim have to do with the harmonic and melodic minor scales ?
Yea it was a game changer for me and don't really hear anybody explain it that way, much easier imo.
Those scales have different triads/chords and modes due to the different intervals. For example A Minor scale the first chord 7th chord would be A C E G (Amin7). For harmonic minor it would be A C E G# (Amin/maj7).
I still do the same thing I just change that one note. So for A Minor I play C major scale, for A Harmonic minor I play C Major #5 @@Ice-dy6fi
Learning modes is not horrible, and the mention of thus may be click bait, because Jens of course knows all the modes (as does,or did Satriani, Yngwie, Via, Joe Pass, Metheny, Scolfield, Holdsworth, Coltrane, Davis and so many other great players)... so, what I'll say is, if you're interested in some of the "lingo" that you will hear some musicians use, both jazz and rock musicians, learning modes will allow you to know exactly what they mean when they talk about using "mixolydian, aeolian, phrygian" etc... it's language, and it's about understanding what people are talking about rather than feeling like a lesser musician when not knowing what is being discussed... when some one says "this song uses primarily "mixolydian" but also incorporates "dorian" and the flat 5th"... by knowing modes, you will instantly know what they mean in terms of flatted degrees etc... which I could describe here but, it's up to you...
...learn modes if you like, if you don't, yes, you still may be a very good guitarist, and you may actually already know some of these scales (as I did), but remember... even Jens, the master here (I mean that sincerely, he's a master) even jens knows instantly what is implied when someone says; "okay, during this major 12 bar blues I want a country flavored mixolydian based solo but with some minor blues incorporated as well to rock it up a bit."
So, yes, interesting topic, and I for one replied, so bravo Jens! Please keep in mind, I have had students of punk, blues and alternative music that had no interest in learning modes, and I understood completely... i did not demand they learn the 7 modes and the harmonic minor scale etc, and i agree completely that a musician need not know what modes are to solo well etc... it's up to the individual... because you know for instance how many guitarists out there love yngwie, they read an interview with him and have no idea what he's talking about when he says phrygian or aeolian etc... even in interviews with the lead man of Metallica you'll read these words... so yeah, it's about language and all...
I love your work and wish I could learn from you in person... thank you for all you do.
THANK YOU SO MUCH for this video. This was exactly what literally screw my mind in the beginning of my jazz studies. All the teachers saying you play scale x over chord y and I wondered even what that means because actually you don't play a mode or scale over one chord (of course in modal jazz you could say that). I would say it just offers you, let's say, a pool to pick out notes. "You play dorian about that II chord, than mixolydian oder V chord ... ". I still can hear that and it's just nonsense...
Exactly :)
Jens is talking about music. Music is not a meritocracy (Adam Neely), no prizes for head knowledge but can you move people at a heart level? Modes evoke emotional responses..... the deviations from the major Ionian mode generate sounds which we associate emotionally....in all forms of music. Modes played technically may only touch the surface of this. Here's Rick Beato's simplest teaching on this topic which for me unravelled "modes" at the simplest level (in other videos he goes much deeper).
ua-cam.com/video/8HJ5mBb9Pgo/v-deo.html
A great explanation of shortcomings of the 'mode per chord' approach. I once asked the great English jazz guitarist Adrian Ingram about this, and he said that if you know the major scale your already know the modes and that learning them again separately was redundant knowledge. The other great piece of flawed jazz teaching is the chord/scale approach, suggesting that each scale should be used over its associated chord (see for example Jamey Aebersold). There's a reason why people talk about playing OVER the changes or THROUGH the changes. That reason is what you are talking about here, outlining the harmonic movement through creating lines which reflect that. 'Mode per chord' and chord/scale approaches don't help with doing that, and also present an incredibly cumbersome memory burdon. Let's hear a good solo using these approaches over Cherokee.
Got to agree with Adrian on that :)
I knew this in university, i knew it made no sense to just think in terms of modes. As soon as i saw the title... i liked! Youre the BEST Jens
Thank you :)
I had to endure verbal abuse from some former teachers because that is exactly the gripe I've been having with modes for as long as I can think back: They didn't give me ANYTHING that felt or sounded useful, much less give me a curiosity to explore them deeper. This just to say I couldn't agree more in saying that knowing the modes is almost a complete waste of time and focuses on all the wrong things as you aptly state. (instead some of the concepts that you keeping stressing here are much more valuable, like eg. chord tones on strong beats, passing notes and enclosures, trills and chromaticism to connect them and using chord arpeggios as building blocks along with phrasing, a swing feel and dynamic expression, that's what gets us much quicker to sounding closer to those who set the bar for traditional and modern jazz, correct!)
Yeah I never liked the whole spiel "play A dorian over the Am and D mixolydian over the D7, then resolve to G major." All those modes use the same notes, so just think of the entire ii-V line as being in G! Much simpler!
Mick Goodrick proposes the modes as a set of notes one can use to learn all the „white keys“ on the guitar. From my own experience this kind of fretboard orientation is essential to understand where the notes are that one wants to use to play over a given chord. I fully agree that arpeggios or target notes are more important to solo over a chord progression. But as a prerequisite one needs to know where to spot the notes he wants to use on the fretboard - believe me I was fretboard blind for the longest time now so: know the chords, know what are the key notes of each of them and know where to find these very notes on the fretboard - only then it’s possible to link notes of changing chords together by a good sounding melody
Same experience here. Learning the modes made everything instantly make sense on the guitar.
@@FuegoJaguar yes, and arpeggios are modes too, but only include chord tones. But if you want to add color, you have to add other tones, and the ones from the same key would be your first choice, so now playing a full mode. There is no escape from modes, whether you admit it or not.
your right, it is funny how you have to know what he is talking about to understand him .
Rick Beato Level 1 and Level 2 theory really cleared up any holes in my knowledge personally.
I would definitely agree with Lars as far as thinking in Dominant Subdominant Tonic , but that is also how you write and analyze songs , it is the way music works .
I personally think understanding sub Dominant and Dominant with pentatonic blues is important . the interchange of pentatonic is actually a theory Level above mapping out 7 note scales
to know major pentatonic is a country sound if thinking of it as IV of Melodic Minor yet a Dominant sound if thought of as V7 mixolydian or V7 MM
So dont learn and memorize them? I never really did mess with them or understand how to use them all the way anyway.. I know what they are, starting on each different note of major scale.. Ok so what to do instead, that works better?
I have always thought the importance of the modes is far too overstated by many teachers
It all depends on the type of jazz you are playing. If you are playing Saga of Harrison Crabfeathers - mode work. And there are many more example. Also, jazz musicians often like to involve other traditions (say, Indian) and they are typically modal.
So while I do agree with you, I think that modal jazz also has a place and its own beauty!
Thanks!
Yep. I’m teaching a jazz improv class for music majors right now and after six weeks have yet to discuss scales or modes. Thanks for speaking the truth Jens!
Thanks John! Glad to hear that from a colleague!
Jens is friggin walking talking Jazz Encyclpedia L O L!!
What Jens is explaining is the reason I dreaded having to learn modes. I have learned more from this guy in the last 2 months than the previous 15 years, and I've just started!
This is one of the most valuable information to teach at Jazz schools
Jens, this video is packed with so much great and practical advice. It's so easy to become confused with all these different scales and modes, especially if they're not helping your playing to be more musical. Making music is the whole point!
This is sensationalistic click-bait designed more to stir controversy than to actually help anyone play better. It's basically trying to de-bunk a myth that doesn't exist while overlooking all of the obvious ways that learning modes helps students of the guitar understand the fret-board. I don't disagree with the chord tone method at all, but the delivery of this as a rebuttal to the advice of learning modes is complete garbage.
How come so many people then agree and tell their own experience in the comments? I don't even have to point to other places where modes are taught this way, I can just stay on the video.
@@JensLarsen I don't see any responses that say "this didn't make sense to me until I saw your video" it's all people who already knew how to use modes and how to not use modes. My point is that the advice you are calling "horrible" you have completelg mis-interpreted. When people say to *start* by learning modes they mean the mode *scales* as a way to learn the fretboard, not that you are supposed to change key with every chord change when the chord changes don't change key. Framing this as a rebuttal is stupid, because you are only refuting your own mis-interpretation of what they meant
@@JensLarsen To put it another way - the people responding favorably, like you and I, know that you don't need to use the modes to play tonal music *after* you learn the patterns to play all the notes over the whole neck. But by dissing the idea of using modes to learn the fretboard in the first place, you're just hurting the development of new guitar players, all to get a shocking headline for your vlog and attract attention to yourself. Somewhere out there there is a young guitar player working on learning all of the scale patterns up and down the neck and using the mode names to learn them who sees your video and gets confused. You've hindered his progress, just to generate more clicks with your stupid headline. You should be ashamed of yourself.
I was never taken with the notion of modes in jazz in this context and I think it only serves to confuse. If the whole piece is in a mode then that is valid terminology.
Exactly! 🙂
I do Agree...The information that You Present Sir is so Wonderful...You are a wonderful instructor...thanks so very much..!
It may be that some day I can get into Your Jazz Program..?
You are very welcome. You can certainly check out the Roadmap. You can request an invitation here: bit.ly/JazzGtRm
Outstanding content. Spot on advise. I use this approach for all styles and it works great. I only use modes for vamps and funk jams. That’s fun too. Great video.
Ok I would make a distinction between modes and scales.I think learning the scales first in position and then over the whole fretboard is a very good thing for everyone- especially if you say out loud the names of the notes and then the intervals ( like saying out loud 1,2 , minor third etc..)
On the other hand the modes. If you learn the dorian mode it’s a sound that can emerge via a scale but also through only some notes and chords.
But I understand what you are getting at - practicing the dorian scale with it 6 that gives away the 3 of the V chord ( in a 251 ) is not a good idea... I would recommend starting to learn all the arpeggios first🎸❤️
I’m new to jazz but I’ve been playing classical music most of my life, and modes are important. I can’t imagine being a creative musician without knowing Lydian, Myxolydian, and Dorian modes. These are very common in rock even if the players don’t know they’re playing modes. These are all useful resources.
But as I say in the video, that approach is not really helping you play a Jazz standard 🙂 and what knowing a mode really means in a practical situation is a different skill.
Jens Larsen If you were talking about studying Palestrinian counterpoint my agreement would be unreserved. But the reason I'm studying this stuff right now and watching videos like yours is precisely because I ran across a reference to tritone scales, which are another mode, this led to audio samples and Giant Steps, and I was hooked. I'm not disagreeing with you, really; to focus on something like Dorian mode is likely not as productive for someone learning jazz as focusing on comping and complex triadic chords but all practice is good practice, and the huge amount of my time I've spent practicing scales, mostly Ionian, has helped me immensely.
FTR, I defer to your experience, I mostly play South American composers on classical guitar and have never owned an electric, and will probably never find people to play jazz with.
Thanks, though, I WILL be practicing the samples in your video.
Catchy title! Charts > Modes. Your lesson however implies that you got the modes already? Why? How are you intuitively going to relate your chord based solo to the modes unless you know them. You always give challenging and thought provoking lessons. Thanks for moving me forward in this journey.
That is easy: don't think in modes, learn to understand tonal songs in the key they are in and stop splitting stuff up in isolated chords. That is not how the music sounds
Jens I wanted to say how grateful I am for your channel. I hope you realize how important your contribution to the world of music is! Jazz guitarists all over the world will be referring to your videos for years to come!
Thank you very much Alex! :)
Couldn't have said it better and totally concur!
Hi Jens, music is the language of the soul and not the head! So i like your modes aversion, but what function has the blue hair ring at the nut of your guitat? Best wishes from germany Sina
Thanks Sina! It's hairband that I use as a mute for open strings, but it does not really do anything when it is behind the nut- I sometimes use it while recording or practicing legato.
Every lesson you post has my full interest, so so refreshing to hear your lessons from the melody angle rather than "OK you want to play A lydian, well here's the scale of E major, off you go,," a little bit like putting arm bands on a child putting him/her in the pool and saying just move your arms and legs about, there you are you're swimming,,, I think you've got a unique way of teaching and I for one have realised ive been wearing armbands in the pool of music for over 40 years of playing 👍thank you for your insights, valuable lessons
Love jazz, not good at it yet....knew a rock guitar guy that said all he does is
follow the chords......sounds familiar
A lot of the (more melodic) rock guys are actually following the changes most of the time :)
Ha, I was anticipating this subject for a video, because you have mentioned in a couple of videos that modes are not that useful for jazz. I fully agree with your point, hearing and spelling out the changes is the most useful way of looking at this kind of music. It's especially irritating in guitar community to hear about modes in the way you described in the video as if learning them opens up the world of music. They have their place sometimes though, I especially like the way that Frank Gambale showed modes in his VHS special. Almost like a tonality, if all the chord tones come from certain mode, the progression can be interpreted as of this mode. And it brings the flavor of the mode forward so one can get away with exploring the sound of that mode not venturing outside.
PS Great shirt, Jens!
Thanks, Al! There is modal music and it is worth checking out, but using modes to play tonal music is just not very useful :)
I have always been puzzled by why people insist on the modes - glad to hear someone like you say they will actually work against you!
Unless you are Yngwie Malmsteen😂
Thank you! :)
Absolutely agree! Too often, modes are considered the crowning touches for playing solos...yet, the patterns are frequently taught without emphasis on the qualities of the chords at each degree of the scale. (It's not unlike teaching the musical staff, but not teaching where the notes fall on the guitar strings!) Playing any mode over an (Ionian) G tonic or chord will still sound like a G major scale. There needs to be more of an emphasis on the chords that are constructed on the degrees of the scales. It's not just a matter of remembering patterns and playing them straight through. Moving away from a particular degree demands reevaluation of one's approach (unless that particular degree is played for the duration, which would likely be dull). Music is mercurial. I'm a rock player. David Gilmour is my favorite guitarist. His focuses are melody and emotion. I feel that it's best to adopt such an approach.
I think Clapton is ashamed to play with Gilmour. That guy is impeccable. I swear I could hear him do a phrase turn on a forth suspended. " I'm like, what was that!". Every note he plays counts. Everyone wants to play lead and not establish a harmonic understanding. I hung up my electrics a long time ago and only now am I starting to understand what is going on. I think that Mick Taylor is another lead player who plays from a chordal framework. Anyway he's the guy I would like to emulate.
Jens can you explain the difference between playing changes and playing modes? What is the difference?
I do at 3:35 using a turnaround in C major
A courageous lesson flying in the face of convention. "Learn all your modes in every key" Another great video!! Go Jen's Go!! 1.000.000.000 subs coming soon:-)
Thank you, Jon!
I didn’t know “Learn all your modes in every key” was a convention. It’s a nonsense, as modes are never in a key. IE: if someone says to you, “For the V7 in C major, do G Mixolydian” they’re only calling C major two different names, one of them wrong. G Mixolydian has the tonic G, is not in the key of C, or G.
@@Civilizashum Well one of the definitions for convention is "a way in which something is usually done, especially within a particular area or activity" Since the modes are usually taught as rooted from the notes of the major scale 1 Ionian 2 dorian etc..G is commonly understood as the dominant chord of C Major. A ii V I in the key of C, would be commonly understood as D- G C. The relative modes dorian, Mixolydian , and Ionian would be given as examples for the scales that bare the proper diatonic harmony. So although modes can stand alone. The convention in this case is that they are members of a key family. Traditionally a dominant 7th chord would not be described as a "tonic" chord but rather the dominant of the tonic chord. But the beauty of thinking chromatically (non-diatonic) is you can do whatever your ear likes. Cheers.
Molt bon video per als meus interessos.
M'hs agradat.
Als meus 62 anys i provenint de la guitarra clàssica, simultanejant, millor dit, no tinc temps a gastar en els modes grecs.
En canvi, el que tu ens ensenyes m'interessa.
Moltes gràcies, Jens
Thank you 🙂
I'm sure you know about Rick Beato's youtube channel Everything Music - he does teach the modes and seems to use them as a kick-off for composing, although he also improvises with them. He said as a teenager he became aware of and interested in the modes because of the solos of Peter Frampton - Beato analyzed some of these and showed how they were modal. Later, he had Frampton on his show and Frampton said he had not consciously used modes or even known about them, but he'd listened to a lot of 60's jazz guitarists and must have just picked up that sound by ear.
Wow! music is amazing!
Its seems to me modes are used more in rock and fusion music. I love all music. As a working guitarist, you get requests to do a tune by Joe Satrianii, George Benson, Stevie Ray , etc. Knowing how and when to use modes keeps me workin! Good luck to everyone....
Yes, for sure Satriani consciously uses the modes, composes on them and solos accordingly
That makes sense. Jazz music changed from bop to blues based music in the 60s and 70s. When the bass line stays in one key, you need to sound interesting. Whether its Satriani style modes, Scofield s interval madness or Scott Henderson/ Allan Holdsworth whateveryoucallit! Take your pick!
Rick Beato also emphasises the use of chord tones on the strong beats, which he defines as a characteristic that is common to all good music, regardless of the genre.
So can you write a solo with this method like shredding vai satch ect? but i allso realize after 18 years of playing music that you will learn more with jazz and it is right what your saying i agree because as i found i was missing real information about chord progressions and allso being a django fan i had to learn from jazz so much grate things to be learning in jazz and i am allso into rock but after being influenced i needed real knolledge so ive seen this is the way faward to getting better thanks jens .
If you want to play Satch, you definitely want to know your 7 modes of a major key
That's guitar playing in general. It's all about triads, arpeggios and fillers. Great lesson that relates to all styles
Thanks! Glad you like it!
I'd like to reflect on Matt's comments. I must admit as click bait this is genius. But I don't think that was Len's intention (or was it?). Either way it has helped me understand the difference between Jazz and Rock on a technical level. Which is really helpful. From what I can gather by watching this video and reading some of the highly intelligent responses beneath. Rock emphasises the musical value of the sound 'feel' of any particular mode within in a single key without overly worrying about the chord notes of the progression. Jazz on the other hand does emphasise the notes in the chord progression and the extra notes within that scale are used as passing tones and extra notes outside the scale (altered tones to add interesting colour or dissonance) added to those chords. And the anticipation of the next chord.
I think Len's was coming from an entirely Jazz perspective but the title will make Rock musicians click on it to find out what he is talking about.
Music is magic. It can be approached from so many different angles it makes you dizzy. I suppose at the end of the day it depends what music you are in to.
Solid ear training comes before ANYTHING else.
Certainly, and you might as well have theory that mirrors what you hear :)
Oh man both comments are the truth!
@@JensLarsen yes, but ear training first. It begins and ends with the ear. You have a sharp ear, you are a force to be reckoned with. If you have theory without the sharp ear, you have a car without an engine. But if you have a sharp ear and theory, you are a weapon.
@@ferox965 I agree with you.Theory is good but people hear your music by ear not theory.
@@ferox965 The two things are not as separate as you seem to think :)
Learning modes is useful for playing modal music - but maybe that is your point.
I do believe that I mention that in the first 20 seconds of the video 🙂
Nice video! I find it very useful to think of it in terms of what every of the twelve notes sounds in relation to the chord you are playing on. For exemple: over a V7 I might want to emphasis any note as long as I land on a chord tone on the strong beats. That way I can create a sort of hierarchy of which notes are important, which ones feel rested, which ones add color etc. It is nice to practice this stuff over a vamp at first I think to really be able to listen.
Heard that.
You are never not smarter for learning something new ;-) Modes are a tool. Like any of the tools we use to create music, it's no more difficult or easy to learn and apply than any of the other tools out there.
That's true, but don't bring a saw when you need a hammer or a screwdriver.
Chord tones vs scales/modes is a such an interesting debate. For me the chord tones are more important but the two sit together if you want to say something really interesting , which you eventually conclude. You have to be able to outline the changes, it’s important for others band members and gives soloing a direction. I don’t have a problem with people teaching the modes as long as they stress the chord tones are the go to notes. I think people often don’t do the level of work required to get these things down properly in all keys, eg knowing the notes in common chord types in all keys. Personally for me the modes are like flavours or colours and things to call upon when the progression sees fit. I kind of feel that your approach misses the wider picture, I get that the chord tones are essential but it’s a limited approach that whilst it makes it easier for someone to learn they still have to do the scale work at some point. Things have to be played until they sit in our unconscious. I’ve tried just the chord tone approach with a few students and they often get bored (despite there being lots of possibilities) Learning jazz can never be an exact science and I love seeing all these different approaches. Have you looked at the book Building a jazz vocabulary? This has some interesting ideas.
it took me a long time to realize that jazz wasn't about playing scales, it's about playing the notes of the chords. haha seems so simple now.
Notes of the chords and few wrong ones, of course! :D
@@zozovaca a few "jazz" notes
There is nothing wrong with teaching modes. There are just some bad teaching out there. It depends more on how you look at them. Their ralation to chords are important. Knowing the modes of melodic and harmonic minor is very useful for constructing chords and understand the full picture. This also depends on the students level. There are more to "Jazz" than standard tunes and their harmonic structure. Frank Gambale has some nice stuff about this topic. And you dont hear the coulors of the modes before you play them from the same rootnote(every mode starting from the same note).
I of course agree that you should start with the chordtones and a melodic focus when learning standards. Its just not the whole picture. UA-cam videos like this dont need such black and white headlines.
Modes are still helpful in context. Its way more than just d to d is Dorian . I agree that it's way beyond that. But understanding modes is very helpful non the less. When it comes to jazz its all about chord changes but when it comes to rock its about lines. I love all good music jazz and fusion being one of my favorites. But when it comes to teaching theory i always teach modes and why they exist to begin with. All functioning from the major scale. Thus why their called church modes. Of coarse there's alot more modes. Using only whole steps, half steps, and whole in a half steps there is 33modes . that understanding is crucial i believe. Ive said alot im sorry for being long winded but understanding the 7 church modes is only the beginning. Thanks
I’m glad you specified “jazz”. I’ve taught hundreds of students and I find they are very receptive to learning the major and minor chords, then introducing how simply changing one or two notes makes learning modes easy. It’s just a building block for learning
While that is true, then most music is in a key, and learning to actually hear it in a key and not as a series of modes next to each other would probably help them a lot when it comes to ear-training which in turn will help them with a ton of other things on the instrument and in theory.
But aren’t modes used to get out of the key into a certain mode with a specific sound?
I’m trying to play mixolidian with a sharp 4th on the V7 chord from autumn leaves. And indeed it’s very difficult to make the whole scale sound good.
I think learning the tonality of each mode is good but just learning them as new scales and fingerings is walking backwards because as long as you can connect every major scale then starting on a different root note or emphasizing that modal root note makes the solos more interesting. I am learning from your stuff though so I will watch more...thanks for spending the time to make these videos.
I love it and totally agree, chord tones is where it's at, and further the pivot points wherever there's a 1/2 step is where the good stuff is :)
Exactly 🙂
Another awesome vid, it really makes sense, thankyou. 👍🏻
Thank you 🙂
Great lesson. Big takeaways are that there are better ways to learn the fretboard than learning modes, and modes alone don't make melodies. Focus on playing through changes and arpeggios removes a thinking step when connecting modes over chords.
Thank you very much Ben! That is indeed exactly what I am trying to get across :)
Just follow the chords.
I do all my composing by ear, largely influenced by all the music I've heard over the years. If I like the sound, I just stop there and play it. Then I can transcribe later and figure out why it works. Even though I studied music theory for a few years, I don't even think about it, I just compose and improvise by feel for the most fun and unique effects. When I get into 'book modes' I just get a little antsy and bored.
I was told this once kind of late in my learning, but it helped a lot to free me up, "It's all the same song, and you are only a half step away from the 'right' note." Think about that for a bit, it saved me from overthinking everything. Yes, you need to know your scales, but in the 80s they started making us too fixated on them.
My formal training is in classical but I also play rock and fusion. I agree with you. People tend to get bogged down in mode shapes.
My rock/fusion instructor once gave me a simple chart with 2 measures of 4/4 with one chord per 2 measures.
He said I could make a melody using R-3-5-R or R-3-5-7 (if it was a 7 chord of any kind). I couldn't repeat any of those notes and had to intentionally play notes that didn't belong to any pre-thought out scale.
It turned out hitting those chord tones in the right spots, even with "wrong" notes in between, sounded much better than just playing up and down some scale or mode.
It's so critical to get those chord tones to really enmesh your melody with the harmony. You can learn modes later and really get the flavors out but learning chord tones is so important.
Also, if you know a major scale and minor scale you basically already know all of the modes. People kinda forget that sometimes haha.
Reassuring to hear that my guitar teacher had been teaching me well. I'll carry on as I am 😌
Great 🙂
Excellent lesson...not interested in jazz by the way but ever since i realised i wanted...fretboard freedom i always knew the key was arpeggios basically they are the...soloing chords in my mind thats why you have to learn them in all positions possible....starting with the first,second,third etc etc finger...going towards the bridge,going towards the nut, on one string,two...six....until its second nature.....
The mistake is how the mode is learned. Modes are a source of chords, 3- 4 note interval combinations/patterns... which in turn imply other scales/ modes.. leading to alternative chords, or intervallic patterns. The key to using them is to look at what they yield in terms of smaller units and their implications.
Even without a given melody at the outset (thinking Herbie Hancock's early modal experiments) the object should be working with smaller note groupings /units to compose one on the go. You cant do that with stepwise lines of notes alone. You have to work on motifs, rests, long v short note values, rhythms etc.
Then by reducing your melody to the most important tones/ and rhythmic character you're free too build around those chromatically or with other devices like tetrachords embellishments (things like appoggiaturas, enclosures etc.)..anything other than 7 note modes. It's a bit like reharmonizing on the fly. the problem is your accompaniment has to leave things open or ambiguous to accommodate that.
One of the problems of chord to scale thinking is that it locks the beginning improviser into the wrong mindset of thinking that because you're playing harmonically in agreement with the accompanist that you're somehow making music.. not necessarily!!
And anyway why would you want to agree with the accompaniment all the time? thats boring.
I feel like modes should be taught first. I kind of get what ur saying but honestly don't fully understand how it works that way. Seems like u would constantly have to pay attention to what ur doing and where ur at. Seems impossible.
Just Like making slap bass sound good 😔...
I think you might be at a level where you can't tell the difference. Of course you want to know where you are in the bar or in the song, but you should not have to think about it, it should be like driving a car or riding a bicycle.
Just stick with it, it will come :)
@@JensLarsen I just wish someone could show me progressions within the melododic minor that don't sound like crap and were to stay away from. This Scale doesn't act like the other ones it seems. At least in terms of mode I guess but like I said I'm kind of lost 🙃.
Great advice. Also, nice shirt.
Haha! Thanks :)
i love you jerns Larsen and my friends too, brazil loves u too. hahaha ty for this lessons
Thank you 🙂
Having skimmed through some of the comments, I think what I would say about this that I would hope might bridge some of the gap is that knowing all of the modes in all keys is helpful when you are an ADVANCED player, but as someone who is less experienced and just trying to navigate a rapid set of chord changes and play something semi-meaningful, it can be better FIRST to learn chord tones.
I do think it's absolutely essential, in rock, jazz, whatever style, to know the notes in a given chord! I think that skill comes before knowing all of the scales and modes, unless you're specifically playing a MODAL piece of music where the chord rarely changes. Then obviously, knowing that mode, in that key, is necessary.
I think there's probably an important distinction to be made in how much time a player is able to devote, and to what level of playing they aspire, in assessing the value of these different approaches. If you want to be a virtuoso, learn it all. If you just want to get out and jam or play some bar gigs and you need to sound competent but not virtuosic, learn the basic skills for the style you want to play (and here Jens is focusing on being able to play over jazz standards, which typically have rather rapid chord changes, and are not modal), and then build from there. So maybe the title of the video should be something like: "Learn the Modes FIRST!" Is Horrible Advice - Learn This First Instead
(My background: I was a music major in college, 20+ years ago, at a place where this kind of theory was pretty much completely absent. We had jazz, and I was in it, but it was a classically-focused department. Music majors there, at the time, would generally either go on to grad school or to public school teaching. I became a web developer.)
I agree with you in terms of not thinking modally over functional chord progressions, but I disagree with not teaching guitar students the “modal patterns” on the guitar, even before learning how to play jazz. With guitar specifically, we tend to learn modes as different patterns on the guitar, but really any of those patterns can be any of the modes, just depends on context. What you’re really teaching is the different positions of the major scale for example on the guitar, and this is still extremely fundamental stuff in terms of developing fretboard knowledge for developing guitarists, and without it you will be missing a lot of the puzzle. The problem is that once students learn the patterns this is what they think about in terms of their improv, and that , I will agree with you, is not a good aproAch. I do also think though, that even if you were thinking about arpeggios, that’s still not the main thing that will create nice lines. Rhythm and phrasing and timing should come before anything else in my opinion.
I managed to learn the major scale just fine without having modal names for the positions, so has a lot of my students and 99% of my colleagues. I find that a terrible habit, often very confusing and misleading, and as I mentioned completely unnecessary.
Jens Larsen I hear you. I think we agree that learning the positions is fundamental, whether you originally learned them as a single major scale or different modal patterns that could be any mode depending on context. Both perspectives should lead to the same end result of developing fretboard knowledge. And I do think you are spot on when it comes to thinking about the arpeggios over chord changes. I do also think though, like I said before, that the harmonic content alone, although important, is not really what makes a good phrase. It’s really just the flavor, but recommending that people think more chordally as opposed to modally or scalery is correct, so keep up the good work!
I'm actually in the opposite position. I knew from day 1 that modes offer an endless number of opportunities if used correctly and did not water it down to "different starting position on the fretboard", and had been avoiding it until I found a teacher. And then I needed to read a real textbook. The jazz theory book by Mark Levine introduces modes on page 20 lol, and once I wrapped my head around it, modes really blew my mind.
The lydian mode and the #11, all those b9s, etc. are just fascinating to me. I wish I didn't avoid learning modes earlier.
I just wish that Mark Levine had written about functional harmony. His books were really misleading to start with to learn improvising.
I agree. I learned the modes and then college was much more jazz oriented. The modes didn't help me and I eventually noticed how jazz is connected more to individual chords and changing key centers.
A nicely constructed lesson with a well defined point. Nice one. 👍🏻
Thank you, René!
Totally agree. Players need to understand chord. Structure and keys. Know why a em7b5 chord is a C7 form
Exactly 🙂
@@JensLarsen Thankj you Jens. People forget that the guitar is a CHORDAL INSTRUMENT! I recently was dissed by two well know YT and FB so called teachers. I found it amazing that they could not recognize that something like an Am7b6 chord analyzes as an Dm7 form. All you had to do was take the same note collection and play it in the 3rd pos and you had the same sound. Its amazing what passes for jazz guitar these days. Just an old dude sounding off here. Thanks Man.
Makes way more sense than Beato's dry teaching/obsession with modes.
In fairness, Rick mostly talks about modal application of them and not so much forcing it on standards
You are a brave man Jens! I guess it's no surprise that many people aren't capable of nuanced thinking - something that's required if one is to gain any understanding in a subject such as this.
Seems like some people simply must insist that you're outright rejecting modes no matter how much you've tried to clarify your statements.
One person even went to great lengths making the case that Joe Pass taught modality How sad is that? He's not even around to defend himself...
I think Pat Metheny would agree with you - in order to access where a student was at in their ability to play over changes, he would ask them to solo using chord tones only. Certainly not the only approach but if they couldn't do it, they didn't need to worry about modes yet.
Thank you for your great work sir!
Yeah, sometimes it is like that. But then again, it is a touchy topic so I guess I have to roll with the punches (I guess that is the expression :) )
A little resistance is good for the soul!
I found the modes so confusing until I changed the way I look at them. A mode is just a major scale played at a different place. For instance A mixolidian is actually a D major scale played starting at A. Mixolidian is the fifth and if you are starting with A then that is the fifth of D. So if you know how to play a major scale at different places on the fretboard then you know the modes. (Sounds easier than it is but works for me).
Ssshhhh don't give away trade secrets man!!
And thats really everything?! 🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽💐
Yeah modes really opened up the fretboard for me, learning all the modes is really just learning the major scale in several shapes
That is correct! But thats one way of applying them. There are 2 ways to apply them: literally and figuratively.
The one you are talking about is literally.
To use them figuratively is like speaking multiple languages in 1 conversation and still make sense.
i just see 12 tones and intervals. The rest are chords.
'Chord Tone Mastery for Electric Bass' by Joe Hubbard is an excellent book that addresses this stuff...
very interesting and helpful take - I once heard Larry Carlton say in an interview that he doesn't know the modes and never uses them
So true, but what when I want to play very fast? Do I mix the various arpeggios (E.g.: IVmaj.7=Fmaj.7, Am7, Dm7) passing notes of the scale and chromatic notes, as well as melodic motives with a combination thereof?
While I understand what ‘modes’ are, it never made sense to me when I’d hear people say “So-and-so plays in the Dorian mode…..and Whatshisname plays in Ionian….”
When I play, I determine the key….and I ‘see’ the grid that contains the notes of that key.
Within that grid are ALL of the modes.
So the concept of playing in any one particular mode never quite clicked with me.
Why focus in one area of a key??
Different feel. Take A minor(Aeolian) and C major(Ionian) for example. They contain the same exact notes but they have a completely different feel to them. Dorian is very similar to natural minor(Aeolian) in terms of intervals, but the 6th note is raised a half step, which gives melodies that use the 6th a slightly different feel.
Its has to do with the backing chord progression.They have different ones.
Is this the best guitar jazz channel on UA-cam?
Well, I think so. But I may be slightly biased
Ahh I know very well that modes are essential to building theory and possibilities, but this does give me more insight and variation. I wish for more knowledge indeed! Great video as always!
Thanks RC :)
@@JensLarsen You are very welcome my man!
RC32, I'd suggest you start with 1 simple 7 note scale in one spot (in addition to Jen's advice). Find each chord arpeggio in only those 7 notes. Then start to reach out around that to complete the chords that could only be arpeggiated, not chorded.
This really helps me to learn where each chord is, compared to the others in a key. It's a beginner step that I had to learn after decades of doing it wrong.
@@EclecticEssentric Ahhh that is really informative and helpful! Cheers!
@@RC32Smiths01 Glad it helps!
Do a scale in different spots and start on different strings, you'll quickly see that it is all almost the same everywhere, but mind that second string as it is off by a half step (semitone) from the G string. Try to arp out each chord in a key on 1 string as well, as this will fill a similar role while teaching you to quickly move across the neck to anywhere. Keep switching strings and keys as you progress.
Mix the 2 ideas together also.
I think you’re exactly right about learning modes.
I’ve always had a tough time memorizing modes and giving them a lot of attention because the endeavor seems aimless.
What you’re suggesting in this vid make a lot more sense to me.
I''ve been improvising for a long time and haven't found modes to be of any real practical use. I like to focus on hitting chord tones and extend chord tones (for example, playing the dim. 7th and 9th of a major traid). It's good to have someone like you recognize this approach.
This is exactly how my saxophone player for an explained it to me perfect
Then he was a good teacher :) Glad you like it!