Since I have started talking about this issue I have noticed a minor change in the game. The point did reach a lot of good faith people who tried it out and reported incredibly positive feedback. Pretty much every solo q game I play people reference "never ff", "try hard" mentality to me which is a big deal. It means that the opinions have seeped into the community and that there is hope. If you have any arguments or criticism feel free to post them below, I welcome all sorts of feedback. Let's make this community awesome and the game as fun as it can be in all it's glory.
I'm with you on red pill never surrender but to say it's the number one reason games are lost is wildly WILDLY off base. Edit: there needs to be a LP loss prevention for people who vote no.
Regarding the trolls in champion select (disco nunu, jungle yuumi, etc.). I would very much like it if Riot had some sort of list of champions that are considered troll picks and implement a way to detect them mid-game. E.g. Your team has a jungle, the jungle picks a normal jungler. Someone else on your team picks yuumi with smite. Now, at this point that potential troll might actually be cooking something illegal. Now attach to that potential troll some tracker which follows their impact on the game. --Does the troll skyrocket in deaths? --Does the troll take camps during the early game from your jungler? --Some other relevant tracker. The game instantly ends if these things are noticed. Awards the opposing team a small token LP gain for having suffered through a bad quality game. The loosing team is not penalized with lost LP. The Troll is instantly banned for the rest of the day. This should not be hard to implement. We already have the roles, the champions and the metrics. Just have to combine them and have some human check the troll pick list every once in a while to update it by removing/adding champions.
I agree a lot with your never ff mentality in anything below diamond atleast.(never got higher so cant judge) However something I've realized that is way worse than ff'ing is people straight up refusing to try and win. In my personal experience I have not felt like ff'ing was a huge part of my losses. In around 160 games I only had 1 ff that was completely unnecessary. (All others were us all dead and enemy hitting nexus) I way more often have very winnable games and people refusing to play for their Wincon and just doing whatever. Maybe im just to shit at the game to create winning plays but idk what i should do when my team tries to facecheck the 5 item toplaner at 25min and that instantly loosing the game even though we couldve easily just cleared waves. Tldr sry for being shit at explaining but ppl give up without ffing which makes the game feel shit so to me its more just a looser mentality rather than ff culture.
@@Alliancewolf another one would be proximity to an even or player favored teamfight then if that distance increases without abilities being used it means they were baiting teammates.
I understand the never ff mentality, as I nearly never surrender myself, I'm an ornn main and we scale harder then fresh wine. However it's more of a mental battle. Leauge players have a bad enough mental as is. But then you get the low elo lane bully players. They loose lane? Now they know for the rest of the entire game they will not have fun. Now you have players who are playing worse because they are tilted 3 minutes into the game. And useful pings to help your team go out the window when you have to mute bad players. Now you have a tilted team who doesn't play for the group just trying to get a kill for fun. It's not that it's unwinnable, but I understand those who wanna leave a team that looses early, I don't wanna babysit a 2 million mastery janna that's been hardstuck this rank for the last 7 seasons. Nor wish to help teammates I've been essentially forced to mute to focus on my own lane and jungler.
People are playing League as it was a loot box, any bad opening just make people rage and wanting to just go open the next box instead of actually playing and enjoying a match.
Botlane goes 0-3 pretty much fast as possible and our jungler goes “ff15 plz” and starts “testing things”. Aka running into enemy jungle feeding. After all that, we EASILY won the single legit team fight of the match. The game was easily winnable, if not for people mentally giving up as soon as that 0-3 was on the board
@@ragerontilt4778 The problem are champs hyperscaling from those 3 kills, Katarina roaming bot for three free kills? Inplayable game for mid and bot since Kata now is fed and will 1 shot everything from now on, oh top fed the darius? welp GG go next
@@ragerontilt4778Thats not cherry picking is literally reality. Some champs are disgusting with 3 kills and it only goes downwards ( and especially if the matchmaking is rigged and they are higher elo than your entire team)
It ruins botlane for me. Most of the champs there aren't even champions before reaching 2 items (so minute 20 or so). I rarely have a game that didn't already have 2 surrender votes by the time we can actually start team fighting. It also creates a game, where people pick the strongest lane bully, flip the game and FF15 if they lost. It's so unfun.
I can relate to this. ADC is an absolute nightmare role to play. Even the contrary happens, when I finally get strong, and before I can even use my strength, the other team FFs. So lame
As a top laner who used to spam ff after failing to lane bully my opponent I realize my mentality is why toplane often feels useless. If all you want to do is ff when you start falling behind then no shit the roles that have delayed value (top and bot) are both gonna feel shitty and blame everyone else
I've been trying the no ff mentality recently. It didnt have much impact in my number of wins/loses, but IT HAD A BIG impact im my enjoyment of the game, it is way more fun to focus in what you can do to improve/impact, than to be tilted by loses.
100% i agree with you. Im not particularily good and want to keep getting better and know i have a lot to improve. But i've had WAY more fun as a result.
@@sooslokosvivemSaaame! I absolutely love hwei and it feels so satisfying to outplay someone as hwei. The only person i 100% struggle against is Fizz.. not fun against him but even against yone its interesting!
The best game I've ever played, the most fun I had was a season 5 match, we were loosing most of the game. It lasted 67 minutes and we did end up loosing but we made the enemy team work for it. Even with a loss I remember it clear as day. Thinking to myself after the match "Damn, that was a good game". Wasn't mad or disapointed. Just satisfied.
You saw this way more back in the day. I played since season 2, and the games were more 40-50 minutes in length back then. I was a pretty low rank so perhaps my enemies/allies didn't know how to close out a game, but damn was it fun. I remember playing a game where there was an enemy kha zix that was like 20+ kills and 3-4 deaths. At minute 50 if you walked 2 meters into jungle you get oneshot by him. my whole team banded together, playing so well, warding, playing objectives, taking good fights and we managed to turn it around and win a 60+ min game. And the whole team was non toxic, nobody complained or flamed, everybody was just giving their thoughts on best strategies to win. Peak game performance.
@@jozokrstanovic9040 I myself started when Hecarim came out, idk the precise season but around season 2-3 so yeah, I was there bro. Damn I miss those days.
I had a similar mindset with master duel, I would give up once I saw a certain archetype or combo I knew my deck would lose to. I kept getting mad that I couldn't understand how to play certain decks cause I couldn't get any "winnable" games but once I started playing through duels I knew I would lose i learned certain interactions and combos that I never realized. The game started being a lot more fun when I had the mindset of "how can I break the opponents board" rather than "how will my opponent kill me this time"
Stopped playing league for a while, and came back after watching your shorts about the ff culture. Tried having fun while losing, as long as i played well, and it truly changed my way of enjoying the game. I even had fun yesterday on a ranked with my jungler running ghost ignite lol. Hope ppl will convert too.
I’ve had the no FF mentality before even know azzapp and I’m glad that there is a youtuber who is teaching and preaching it. I literally never touch the ff button no matter what. Even if the enemy is 10 kills ahead. I want and need the experience of late game and I know that there are chanced for us winning still because there has been many games like that for me.
i think one big factor to ff culture is that for a lot of people, winning is not the objective of the game, but getting fed and become a god, destroying the nexus is not as fun as killing the enemy team, so if they realise that they are not getting to enjoy the fantasy of being overpower, it doesnt matter that the game is winnable and my can carry me, surrendering is better because it lets them try again to get fed sooner.
Was never huge on surrending but I know I did give up fairly often. the past week I have switched to no ff and I have not only been more fulfilled by games but even improvements to my own play
one of us must be living in an alternate reality... you're telling me that not only do your teammates vote yes, but they're even voting yes in winnable games?
Since I began playing all the way to the moment I stopped, there is one thing that stayed in my head: "Never surrender!". My best memories of this game is that of a losing game where the enemy got cocky and made little mistakes up to a catastrophic one only for us to win it by a hair.
Hey azzapp as someone who barely ffs this resonates with me. Although my surrender rate is low because I wanted to keep the rarely surrenders badge that professor gives prople that always vote no. I main top and usually i am 0 0 or 0 2 and play for objectives so it annoys me to no end when ppl only look at kda when league is an objective based game and about 80% of the games are a 50 50 where those with better mental end up winning
It's not the BIGGEST problem. The bigger problem is the matchmaking. Teams are not balanced. When someone who is elo inflated plays against someone who is at their actual rank or even worse smurfing. The skill level difference causes the top, bot, mid, or jungle to be 7k gold up at the end of the game. At lower elos like emerald, plat, or gold this difference is insurmountable in my opinion.
The surrender pop-up is so cancer. Most of the time when we are losing I'm not even thinking about surrendering but obviously because of my impulsive nature I tend to tilt and either blame myself for playing poorly or lash out at my teammates for ruining a game where I performed. Then I see the ff button and it just tilts me even more and takes out any bit of motivation I had left.
ive tried your recommendation for some time now and im happy to say its working. ive had multiple games where my team tilted early and i was able to keep them in and win (although most of the time i was the one fed one on the team)
The biggest problem I have with the arguments like "I can only play x amount of games I don't want to waste that time" is that the people making these arguments are not coming from an angle where they are actually having fun playing the game. If you can only play 2 or 3 games per week and you are already in the headspace that you know theres a chance you don't enjoy those 2 or 3 games, maybe the real answer is you just shouldn't play the game. So many people bringing up the "unfun" game arguments, if you can't enjoy playing the game while losing you probably just shouldn't play the game at all.
I remember playing back in 2010-2015. When I enjoyed league the best. My friends and I would go play our seperate ranked games and then meet up during Lunch the next school day and we would be sharing stories how we were 10 kills behind or be stuck in a 4v5 and end up winning the game. How our Draven ran it down three times after he got first blooded but then he decided to play and we won. The crazy neck to neck base racing at 40 minutes, down to the last wire, we aren't going to make it so someone backs gets a triple and buys us time to end the game. Everything back then just felt so epic. It's sad that those same friends are the type to die twice, say the game is over and just have a defeated attitude for the rest of the game.
When you play on a sports team, you don’t give up and sit down on the field after the enemy scores a point, you keep pushing till the very end. So when you queue up and commit yourself to a match with 5 teammates, don’t give up after one or two things go wrong, keep pushing not only for yourself but for the people you AGREED TO PLAY WITH WHEN YOU PRESSED FIND MATCH AND ACCEPT
had a game where we had a bot of a lux sup. she backed at 10% HP in front of enemies and died (just one of many things she did that were indicative of being a bot) Whole team wanted to FF but we got some solid yorick maiden solo pushes taking around 8 structures and we ended up winning. That feeling, that exhilaration, I will never forget how it felt when we won. That is why I never give up. (I was the Yorick)
This latest season made me quit league. I peaked at Emerald, but the games became too toxic across the board for me. I think the changes you suggested, if implemented, would bring me back: voice chat, the surrender box being moved to tab, no ff, or at least no ff pre 15 and then it needs 5-0 before 20 and 4-1 for post 20. I would give ladder another chance if these changes were made. But for now I'm having so much more fun playing single player games. Thanks for the video Azzapp! You a real one.
I understand your issue with it, but from someone who has played the game since season 1, the current playerbase is by far the worst it has ever been. My peak rank was masters, rank roughly 960 on the EUW leaderboard (although this was a few seasons ago as I quit playing the game seriously in season 9) You can play a game and be in diamond, emerald, platinum or even gold and the game has zero improvement in quality. I haven't played a game in the last 3/4 seasons where anyone on my team understands macro, not once. The most basic fundamentals of the game have just been made irrelevant and it has turned into which team has someone inting, and which one doesn't. You can basically make D2 rank in solo que, by playing top lane and just split pushing with zero awareness of the game as long as you understand your champ. To me personally that is poor. Seasons 5-7 once you hit platinum people tended to have the understand of basic math. So we have our bot lane in base and mid half hp no mana, lets not do dragon. But nope, basically every single game past 10mins, people do not understand when to take objectives and when to fight ect. It's just brainless walking places or hitting objectives because thats what your supposed to do, rather than look at the game state and understand when you take those fights or objectives. I get that this is a team game and that not everyone is going to be on the same page, but teamwork isn't something exclusive to league of legends. You can get to high rank on other games and people will 100% understand how to push the lead and win the game, but on league it's different. Ego players have taken over who refuse to understand what there win condition is and they think like cavemen who see champion kill champion, rather than the bigger picture. Like genuinely at this point if you did an IQ test on league players I swear to god it would be incredibly bad, like 50IQ average I swear, I used to pay attention to it and care but at the moment when I log in and play a game every now and then, it's the same issue it has had for 5 seasons. Brainless players running it down, not getting punished or getting into ranks and been stuck there because they cant go lower and refuse to accept they can improve so they just sit 1000 games in a rank bracket with there ego saying 'It's always my teams fault' That is why personally I am someone who is like 'ff it' because I know generally 15 mins into the game either my team will lose this because they aren't smart enough to do the correct things to win the game or not. Yes they could be 10-0 but if you are brainlessly pushing lane without vision, sooner or later you will die and give your bounty and the other team will know what to do with it if they are smarter than you. The game is no longer better team wins, it's which idiot is going to throw the game harder.
I enjoy playing lol for 6 years as a Akali main. I recently lost the game due to my teammates surrendering, and I was lvl 13 clearing the mid lane. This puts me in a sour spot and ruined my enjoyment in LoL ☹️
15:35 Another argument for the tick on scoreboard is actually fighting against hostaging, because in my experience more often than not the ones who take the game hostage are not players who are tilted from start, but players who want to surrender, then if two people press no they feed the enemy team beyond care, don't play the game and when others want to surrender because that one dude doesn't want to play, THEN they take everyone hostage. If there's a tick, then that one person wouldn't just change their mind based on if anyone surrenders or not, but will just put a tick and do his thing if he wishes to troll the game so much. Also maybe put heavier attention to people who want to surrender, maybe if their death count goes up significantly after they press surrender vote, then you punish them, even if it's just a text pop-up or low priority for one minute. Why can't we have a commission of higher elo players reviewing games of players who are suspected of cheating/soft trolling in general? Like CS:GO is a perfect example where this worked perfectly, Valve just allowed people to do their work for them while also giving big high elo streamers additional content where they can review games in an entertaining manner. And this is besides the point, but PLEASE add voice chat. People just don't see pings until like high dia, no matter how much you ping, no matter what you ping, most of the time they act like they're blind. It's really hard to ignore audio cues rather than visual ones when league is already overloaded with places your eyes want to be regularly. Not only that, but that would make teamfights WAY more consistent and entertaining, since people would actually be able to communicate what they can do, will do or want to do in real time and without having this stupid restriction on pings (tbh I didn't enjoy even the initial restriction before they changed the system to where nobody liked it.) Great video, I hope some day they will fire people that actually deserve to be fired instead of getting rid of good game developers and finally fix the parts of the game that should feel enjoyable, because there are a lot of problems even outside of the balancing department.
The "only 3% of failed early-surrenders finished with a win" reminds me of survivorship bias. Because if majority of the players in your team wants to surrender early and didn't, they will likely starts trolling to sabotage the non-surrenderers. Now imagine a world where ALL players were actually trying in their games.
It's totally true what you are saying. I get the feeling that people are playing with an entitlement point of view and then like spoiled brats, they want to get out the moment something is not going their way. ANYTHING competitive is not a guarantee and you as a team needs to work towards victory. You don't see this in football nor rugby. I think the only place that you do see this giving up is in motorsport, but that is because you have complex systems within the vehicle that can hinder you from continuing, let alone doing so competitively. But even then, especially in endurance racing, competitors WILL FIND A WAY to fix the car to a good enough state to continue. I saw it in the Bathurst 12h a couple of weekends ago where a team literally got parts from a similar car in a different class, that has finished its race for the weekend, to compete in the 12h. Players, the fact that you clicked on accept doesn't mean you will win, it means that you are willing to compete. Life does not have an eject button and EVERYTHING you go through, good and bad, has a good thing in it, a lesson. It should spark an investigative mindset for you to learn from and get better. Not all of us can do it ourselves and need help and it is up to us, the community of who can do so, to help the players that are asking for help out of good will, because face it, not everyone can afford coaching. I, for one, am barely scraping through on a monthly basis. If we can drop our ego's and reach out to the players and help them get better instead of rubbing their faces in the dirt, we can build a much more positive community than what it is. You might be better at the game, but you're flunking your grades in school while the guy you are playing against could be working around 40-60h a week, and have a place and a car of his own. Who is actually better off? There's a lot more to the life than being good at a game and not everyone has the same privileges you have, so it gives NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to be an asshole towards someone else. If you have a bad game you don't want people, especially your teammates, to rub it in, so why would you do it to someone else? We are teammates. People who picks those up that fell down and cross the finish line together. A team that fights within itself will never win.
I have recently started playing through games even though it's not going well, and at least 30% of the time that someone is super duper fed on the enemy team, we still win the game because we scale up, or play as a team better, or get a pick on the fed player. And I'm a bronze/silver player, so I can only imagine as you move up in the ranks this % get's bigger
As someone who came to league somewhat recently (4-5 months ago) I still find it completely ridiculous how easily people give up. Even if the game was 100% lost there is still something to be learned. Seems like 99% of league players, do not see value in failure.
Riot has the technology to determine how close games are to determine when to give objective bounties. One thing I would like to see is require a unanimous vote at any time limit if the game is remotely close.
I always cast my surrender vote last and I only surrender if everyone else wants to. I’ve been in matches where the enemy had a 20 point lead and we turned it around.
Another idea would be to give every player the option to start a surrender vote once per game and it always has to be 5 times yes. I play so many games where my team surrenders its incredibly infuriating. I have a friend who always declines the ff votes with me so at least occasionally i have one person that keeps me from getting thrown back into lobby from a winnable game.
90% of the time, I never ff, unless I get into that extremely passive games where your team is 20-50, and they refuse to group or fight any objective + 2-3 of the enemy team just farm kills+objectives and it turns in a 40 min game where we just farm and they just dont wanna finish I know it might be winnable, but its extremely boring, like being held hostage in a game with teammates that are waiting for a miracle to happen yet they do nothing to help each other and it becomes a coin flip teamfight at min 45 (emerald-diamond) I realize that I get into those games if my teammates are those rare kind of players which value KDA over anything, even if that means forcing your team into a 3v5 or 4v5, I usually tryhard those, but its exhausting. Love the games where everyone is willing to cooperate, even if we are giga behind
I personally think that another huge problem in league and especially in solo-queue is hidden MMR. Both Starcraft II and HotS had this problem until they just gave up and threw the numbers in player's face, so instead of "You don't know your rating and you don't know when the promotion will be" it's simple and elegant chess-like ELO system with "You have 2400 MMR and you need 2700 to get 1 division. If you're playing against +300 MMR player you will give 40 and lose 20. If you are playing against -300 MMR player you will get 20 and lose 40" simply because in 1v1 scenario it's much more likely to outplay person who is 2 division lower (the same goes to every sport by the way. Table tennis, big tennis, chess, martial arts, etc.) I've been in both losing -15 getting +25 and getting +17 losing -24 and it's fucking awful. If player truly belongs somewhere higher ELO system and MMR especially should represent this by open numbers not some hidden shit that no one knows how it works. The same goes to RIOT support, I have never received more frustrating answer to a problem than "We are sorry to hear this, but your hidden MMR is shit so you need to play 50 more games in order to equlize it"
Ever since I started playing league in season 6, I always drag the surrender box out of my screen, the popup is discouraging and tilting. People express their frustration through a surrender call and its always an emotional call rather than a methodical one. People need to try harder, stomp games are never fun
Not sure if its just my unranked MMR being f-ed but a decent amount of games in quick play/draft is people going "I'm here for the S rank/chest, I can't get it anymore, why play" after getting *slightly* behind
Also I feel like ff culture is quite abusable in climbing because if you never ff, your team only needs 1 more no-vote where as enemy team ALWAYS will need 2 to not get the ff through
This video pretty perfectly echoes my sentiments since i started playing League last year, i never understood the idea of surrendering in other situations than when the game is obviously lost but the enemy team just dont want to end cause they want to troll the losing team by like, camping the fountain.. at that point i agree its a waste of time but aslong as you can have all members of the team killing creeps and get experience and gold the game will naturally reach a stage where any advantages earlier will even out. Besides, whats the point of queueing up if you dont wanna play the game? Im "okay" with the unanimous vote thing cause ill never vote and if i have 4 players on my team that actively dont want to continue playing the game then id rather go to a new game where my team mates want to play instead of people bickering and being toxic to each other but i can also see the argument how that being an option feeds into people having weak mentals and so on... So i get your argument for sure
id love to see the surrender button turn into a check box on the scoreboard. you can click it any time you like, you can uncheck it at any point, whenever it reaches 5/5, the game ends. if it hits 5/5 at 45 seconds, well rules are rules, game ends. after 20 minutes, make it 4/5. idk, after 45 minutes, 3/5 passes, maybe? some people did not expect a 45 minute match, maybe something happened irl, sorry guys gotta run. after 100 minutes, 1/5 surrender votes passes, to put a hard cap on game length, perhaps. if you havent won almost 2 hours deep into the game, theres gotta be some hostage situation going on, right? numbers could obviously be fiddled with
My favorite part is when people play scaling champions and ff at 15. Like bro why are you a Kayle/Nasus/Veigar main if you give up this fast without scaling. I've won way too many games from a singular shaco box giving a pick into an ace and end past 30mins. Comebacks are just as likely. Fed players get cocky. Everyone sucks equally. Emerald elo is a purgatory and I thought it was impossible to beat with a 50% winrate but I've finally beat it playing only sup shaco and never surrendering even the most dire games. Especially when the lp gains were fucked and you lost 32 for one loss vs winning 22 for a win, these ff15 games were very punishing. LP gains seem to be fixed now however thank god
Its your take cause you are a streamer and you are playing this game 24/7. Im diamond player that plays from time to time has 60% winrate. When i get stomped in lane I dont want to waste my time especially if im after work. Sure if im 0/5 in lane I wont int if my team has a chance of winning but if every lane is lost and nobody wants to play that much than what is the point. I have other things to do or play next :) I understand your perspective but most people are casual players and not tryhards.
I think what you said covers just high elo (Master+). Let me give you the issues low elo has (I was emerald last season, I barely play now. Hope I stop playing the game): 1. Boosted accounts: specifically at d4 rank. It is so easy to buy them, even popular streamers have links with websites and guarantee that they won 't get banned. 2 report system: I report players for specific reasons, and I get in the next match players that ruin the game with the same way. 3. Ban system: There are players with constintatly bad performances, stuck in the same rank, ruining the game for the rest. I believe Riot should ban them from ranked games for the rest of the season. 4. mmr. Too many issues since it 's existence. If you would get even 3 more lp guaranteed for any win, than what you lose (for example +25 for win, -22 for lose), people would value more a win. 5. Players mindset. The reason I was playing rank, was because I never felt that my opponents were even close to my lvl. And this should be the only reason to play rank. When you reach your limit, stop playing because you ruin the experience for those that try to climb. If your goal is to climb ranks, play normal games, become better, then come back. It took me 2 years playing before starting ranked games, because I respected the people that value the elo. 6. ego. I personally played most of the times jg in order to control the game easier. I didn 't just ping my team, I literally wrote direct instructions on what to do when dragon spawns for example. And then happens the opposite and lose the game. I believe voice chat would solve this issue at some extent. But when I report these people for taking actions against the team, I want to see a feedback that this guy, got permanent ban. When you try to play with your team, because it is a team game after all, and they refuse, I just don 't wanna spend any more time with these people. It is not any more about win or lose. 7 matchmaking: This is the most important for me. Riot should create a system where for ranks, having good stats, would work in your favor. Among the people of the same rank (everyone should be emerald 2 for example), put the people with the better stats in the same team, against the other 5. With this way anyone would try to do the best on their games, wouldn 't surrender so easily and most important those that perform well, would get direct benefit from it. I had 60% winrate with wukong in emerald, but still was top 50 in my server. And yet never felt that I got rewarded, neither from mmr nor from matchmaking. And that 's why I was surrendering
As someone who mostly plays single player games, returning to league was a strange experience. The community seems to have forgotten that they play the game to have fun, not to win. It can be fun to be behind, it can be fun to win from a losing beginning. If you go to the community of any other game they don't see every failed attempt as wasted time, the attempts are the fun, its you playing the game - victory is a reward for playing well. Then come the people that will talk about bad teammates and losers queue or whatever, which is also weird to me. Bad teammates are just hard mode. If you're good you should be able to carry. Losers queue means the matchmaking system thinks you can carry. What you have is loser's mentality on a carry queue.
You literally play a pvp game to win. You have fun if you win not when you lose. When I play path of exile Im always having fun since you cant lose anything, its you vs monsters.
@@GE_Photon_Lord You play a pvp game to compete. Half of all games end in a loss. By that logic half of all time spent in a pvp is absolutely wasted. You also attempt to win in PoE btw, its literally the same thing, only you fight a computer instead of humans. That makes you focus on yourself, so when you lose you get better and eventually win and see all of that as one fun process. League is the same thing, just against humans.
@@YamiFlyZX "The community seems to have forgotten that they play the game to have fun, not to win." - This is literally incorrect, you have fun when you win. Learning from loses is something else, but you can't say you have fun when you lose and learn something, like what? Learning is the effect that takes place after a frustrating lose. "when you lose you get better and eventually win and see all of that as one fun process" - sure, you get better obviously, but this process is so frustrating and I guarantee you, no one sees this as being fun. It's literally like learning irl subjects, you literally only have fun after you fully grasped all the information and play with it. Also in PvE games you "always win", it's not the same as playing vs humans. You can literally play and watch youtube at the same time in those kinds of games. I mentioned a pve game because again, you can't lose, meanwhile league has this 50% winrate effect like you said. Also sure, you "compete" in league, but you always expect to win, that's what makes you play the game in the first place. So once again, have fun in league means a win, loses are not fun but grant you experience. It's not time wasted at all, 100% of the time is used at maximum capacity. But the problem is that you have 50% fun sort of speak.
@@GE_Photon_LordThat is not literally incorrect lol. A game can be very fun even if you lose at the end. What you assume as a universal truth is in my eyes a toxic mindset. You compare it to learning an IRL subject and it extends to that as well, its far easier to learn if you enjoy the process than if you see it as some painful transaction to get to the end. You don't "expect" to win, you attempt to win, and if it turns out you don't make it in the end that's fine. BTW idk what games you've been playing but in PvE games you don't "always win". If you consider a gaming session in something like Dark Souls or Hollow Knight you will usually lose more than you win, and you can easily not advance at all in the whole session. Try reading about people doing Pantheon 5 in Hollow Knight. You can absolutely lose in a PvE game, you spend most of your time doing that in fact.
@@YamiFlyZX Cope harder, what you are saying is incorrect, every league player plays to win and has fun while winning, its an already known thing. Maybe you are the one assuming things.
I do agree with your opinion, but as a player that likes snowballing and winning early (so take this with a little of my bias) the only issue I have with no ff being in the game is that, in some cases even tho the games are winnable by lets say 40 minutes and something goes insanely bad in the early game and enemy team is giga stomping killing you on repeat, not allowing you to play the game, the game ends up being extremely unfun to play. Yes it could be winnable, yes if we try we can win but it's extremely unfun. I don't wanna play these extra minutes out by trying to either scale or wait for enemy team to fumble. But that's the only case where I would ff.
its funny because I played a lot of draft pick before I started getting into ranked and in draft pick we almost always surrendered which made it so I didn't know strategies on ending the game. when I played ranked it felt like I knew how to play chess but not how to checkmate.
Took a 4 year break from league and played a bunch of dota. It’s not the only reason why, but no surrender makes for a FAR less toxic and honestly, more fun game than league. I’ve come back to league. I think I truly like league more. But the no surrender makes dota a lot closer. The fact you’re STUCK with these teammates and you have to see it through means you are more kind, understanding, communicative, and focused. Imagine a basketball player knew they could just give up and go home at halftime.
Been playing this way since I started playing League. Only surrendering for remakes with an afk teammate(s). Highly recommend. I've won a ton of games I felt were lost, and I lost a couple games I thought were won. I'm not that great at the game (Silver elo), but it has been much more fun to learn to play out those really tough situations and find angles for comebacks because the enemy didn't know how to close out games. I've also found it is more fun when you're winning to not have the enemy team surrender. It's much more satisfying to actually hit the nexus and win the game than it is for your opponents to just resign. It also creates some interesting situations where you thought you were winning super hard, and then realize it was always more close than that.
Is there an example of a game with that hidden surrender flag mentioned in the video? I love the idea, the best games are always the 20 minute wins my friends and I threw away in normals that turn into intense 45 minute back and forths.
This is hilarious, i wrote almost the exact same thing said in this video to Riot on a feedback e-mail. Forfeiting needs to go except under drastic circumstances.
There is just one thing that I wanted to say. Why do most people play games? To get some good emotions from it. Joy, satisfaction, fun, whatever. Positive emotions are usually the main reason to play. If your entire team except you is suffering from that game you are currently playing, what would make you think that it is a winable game? Do you really think that those people are somehow going to get their shit together and go for the win? And what if they don't? In 19 out of 20 games, that means that you just force your entire team to sit for another 10-20 minutes of completely unenjoyable game just because of this 1 in 20 chance of getting some numbers. And, please, remember that you can get them in ANY other game that is less miserable for you/your team.
Since watching your vids I really started to notice the ppl who just wanna ff 15 After 2 Minutes. You have Them in like every second game. For example just yesterday i had a Aatrox on my team and After one play at Minute 8 where my mid lane Duo didnt ping enemy missing and he died he wanted to ff and ran the Game down. And before he started to int he was Hard winning lane and me on botlane with my adc aswell. We couldve easily Turned it if he hadnt surrendered.
Not gonna lie, I dont play rankeds that much, but i had some insane games where we win while being A LOT from behind, those games are pure joy when you win those. I almost never ff because of those fun comebacks.
It's interesting how a faster game that's more rewarding for "lane winning or bust" players arrived so hard at ff15. Especially when I consider just how high the bounty gold comeback mechanics are versus older league. KDA is a far less accurate metric for tracking how much gold a champion has on them and it was never good in the first place. ff15 also leaves a lot of questions on the table. Maybe that 10/3 assassin mid that's been eating well has no idea how to carry a winning position, fails to handle teamfights, and goes in to 1v5 then dies? Maybe the losing out of lane team has a better teamfight comp and gets a wombo on a greedy baron attempt + baron buff? You can't know if you don't get one team fight in first! That one comeback moment when you cash out the "piggy banks" is far more rewarding in present league then old and isn't valued by the playerbase? Just crazy to me.
PS: I'm glad I missed so much of the mythic item meta. I assume being able to spike that hard on one item would make initial leads/gaps far harder to overcome.
i thank you sincerely azzapp for driving this mentality forward in such a grand scale. im not exaggerating if i say that you have single handedly increased by average game quality to some extent. because i see a lot more people (usually its just one guy in the game) but its a guy that previously would have given up and just afk or spam ff, but instead he says "its always winnable" or "never ff". i just have to assume that youre the main reason that this has increased in my games lately. ps. the other day i had a guy run it down my game on purpose but our team just wouldnt give up, the enemy spammed "why no ff?" and got frustrated that we didnt surrender because they couldnt end the game. they tilted and threw the game and we ended up winning 4v5. one of the greatest and most enjoyable games ive played in my life. from this moment onward i will start spreading your message forward enthusiastically as well. im never voting yes ever again. go azzapp ;D
It should only happen automatically when someone AFK and all lost points should go to that person (and maybe, if they find a way to detect troll, but it’s a bit touchy)
Yo azzapp, Im wondering if my most recent game was actually winnable. Granted it was a norm so no downsides to it but the game was going like shit for the first 15 and we make a comeback around the 25th minute. That also happens to be when our Seraphine APC started throwing, purposely missing Rs and split pushing at the worst possible times. Aside from mid and top everyone was behind in items and we had no drakes by the end, was there any possible moment to win there? Of course a load of info isnt involved but I am not about to type the story of a game in a UA-cam comment section.
Azzapp, you talked about learning more in a game of league by playing "high quality games" than spamming games. I do not share this view as I do not learn anything new in playing any games. Leagues doesn't provide much in this side either and I would need to actually do some researches to learn more which contradicts the point of long games
the funniest thing I've ever seen is some poor guy in higher elo (streamer obviously) was in q for almost 20 minutes. then once he got in the enemy gave up at 15 exactly.
I normaly try to win my games until the end but sometimes you simply cant i main tank champs and you cant say the game isint snow ball when a 10k hp mundo gets kill in 4 seconds or bountis r good whe i can have a 1/12 yone and he will still give 400 gold shutdowns or more the comunity dosent help when they will start afk farming the jg so they can lose game faster but dosent count as AFK and dont get penalised
thank you for making this its never made sense to me that people would rather give up than play a game to the end especially because i play ranked pretty casually and just enjoy playing the game and learning how to improve and through this process I've been able to take games where we had a fully open nexus and their base was untouched and win them multiple times just even this month
I almost never FF, odds are someone on the other team is going to throw a fit and FF anyway. I don't play a ton and even then so many games turn around on comebacks. Started in silver this season and cruised into plat, felt like a good portion of games were comebacks. Also a Vel'koz OTP
my team on bronze, for the most part, doesn’t try in principle if the game is going well, they will play if not, they will continue to merge and then they call to give up, like, why play this already, although you yourself lost to Akali in the middle in 1/12
forfiets come from lack of team synergy, if you team feels as tho they cannot work with anyone to win and just trust one fed member to make all decisions for them. they rather go next.
That's just the consequence, the cause of the problem it's the very snowbally nature of the game (thanks for the disparity between gold gained playing passively farming vs gold gained just roaming and getting kills) and most importantly the level of play you can make with a single character is very low compared to number of players, in other games like DOTA you have a higher skill cap and power as a individual but also higher potential team play cause of it, making the differences between a normal player and a good one much more apparent. One way to fix this problem would be reducing the gold gained on defeating enemies plus increasing the reduction of gold you give per death. Then increasing the gold gained by farming the lanes (to keep the same victory timer)
Okay listen, I am a massive surrenderer, I hate it. But I have a shit mentality cause of anger, but this video I watched it in its entirety, and it actually changed my mind. The biggest thing I took from it was the part where you said "you won't learn anything from short games and you will from playing out the tough ones" or somethig like that. I will 100% try this method, thank you man.
I don't get the mentality of "I work full-time and want to FF go next" I do actually work full-time and only get 12ish games a week to grind and I will never FF one of those 12 games. They are all I get and I want to play them out to completion and because of that and my journey to improve I'm higher than I've ever been. I won't dare waste a game on some pointless FF when I get so few to play. Each and everyone is a learning opertunity and each point of LP will need to be wretched from my hand before I give it up.
Thx for making this Ive hated ff ever since I started nearly as much as I hate yi. I honestly don’t understand why some of these players even play league and not do competitive coin flipping cuz they don’t care at all about the game play they just wanna see the win/loss screen.
I think the FF culture is just a symptom of leagues actual biggest problem, which is the fact that it is simply not enjoyable a lot of the time to play from behind. The game is only fun if you are winning, and it is miserable when you are losing. If you are 2/7/1 in midlane you are not having a fun time, even if your adc is 6/1/4 and can theoretically carry you. It is more enjoyable to just take the L by way of surrender, and queue up again for a game where you have a higher possibility of getting the lead, being the main character, and winning the game.
I pick Warwick and shit on the enemy top in the first 15 min. The enemy top loses mental and runs it down winning the game for us. Gotta play the system
I came back for the game last season and I was having a lot of fun playing, but now everygame ends, because everybody justs surrender because of this 1 vote difference and the games arent enjoyable as they were
What about a personal option that you can disable the surrender popup and it'll be automatically considered as a no for all of your games unless changed.
Regarding the solution: I like the tick box idea, however I think as a further barrier to FF’ing, the pop up should remain, but with a catch. That is, if enough people have ticked the box, THEN the pop up appears. That way someone who ticked the box early out of tilt but forgets to untick when they realize the game is winnable won’t randomly FF a game.
maybe implement a system where if someone starts an ff vote their team has a set amount of time to react to it, and if a ff doesnt go thru all ticks instantly go away
Another point to add: once you change your mindset, you will have fun in these "lost" games too. Your fun shouldn't only come from winning, playing the game itself should be fun. This is why so many people play League and say it is miserable, they only have fun when they win. I want to be challenged and overcome that challenge. I take a 40 min close game that I lose, where we almost made a comeback, over a 15min complete stomp where I win EVERY TIME. It's just more fun, never surrender
It's like playing a souls game for the first time. You get to the boss(or get killed along the way), die, reflect on where you messed up, improve and do better next time. And once you succeed, you feel the happiness and fulfillment rushing to your head and you enjoy the game more.
Sorry, but i fail to find any fun in being oneshot on cooldown by (insert an asassin here) for 40 minutes, even if we win. +20 lp is not worth the 30 minutes of gray screen.
@@dominikkowalczyk3845 This is literally why I have dumped so many hours on those games because of the challenge and overcoming it. Same thing with League.
@@dominikkowalczyk3845 but the thing is you get stomped by the boss for half an hour and then you beat him, in league every single dark souls "death" is half an hour. Also in dark souls you rely on yourself and noone else, and the enemy(boss) itself is always the same difficulty which is consistency which is enjoyable to learn
I quit the game in s7 and came back to play normals with friends last October. I was shocked with how easily even they wanted to surrender. I told them that if their idea of the game is to stomp lane and hope the other team surrenders they might as well go to a casino instead of playing. Since then we never surrender even if we int our asses off and its hella fun cuz we actually win maybe 10% of those unwinable games (total guess btw but it feels that way) its also more fun to try and beat the fuckers that stomped us early… so glad we aren’t the only ones and people like you help the community change their mindset for the better!
I literally had the same experience as you. Stopped playing around season 7 and came back in October. One of my friends particularly would get so tilted if he lost lane and would immediately ask us to surrender at 15. Even if we were ALL WINNING our lanes. I was like, bro are you serious?
As a Master tier player, my character pool is full of scale/stack characters. Every time surrender pop up shows, it drives me crazy. I 100% guarantee you if my teammates trust me more than surrender pop up, I would single handedly won for them most of my lose matches.
they forgot late game champ exist...and they even forgot to play on late game as they keep surrendering early. How many times my Ryze is completely useless because they expect me to do bazillion damage on early while his damage spike is basically mid to late game where he had at least 3 or 4 (boots not included) to deal decent damage
@@imanjx2914not only that most champs nowadays scale even slightly besides a handful that fall off most of the time by just playing the game you end up winning off of comp alone without infinite scalers or kass/kayle/ryze
Sure, but most of the games (at least plat>emerald, were I am) people are just plain toxic and force you to play 45min games allthough they are 1-15 on a full tilt rampage. Your scenario would also be frustrating as a late game champ.
Me, me, me, me, me. It's all about me and me. Ask yourself a question. Did you do anything that will make rest of your team not trusting you? Because I can bet that your "me, me, me, me" attidue made at least some of them to say "fuck it, I'm not going to play this shit, let me out". Because it's one thing to play scalling champ and the other thing is to be selfish dickhead.
otp aurelion sol here, i have a 67%wr acc in d4 rn, peaked master last season, i cant get out of emerald on my "main" account (the acc has existed for quite a bit of time and tbh seems like old mmr screwed it a bit, or idk). The thing is i notice a very real difference of game quality between my diamond acc and emerald stuck one, the people i meet in ranked on d4 are just so much more willing to play the game and also rarely troll than on the other acc, its been this way since placements so its not an elo diff, i literally get different people, even the guy who spams cringe stuff in champ select ends up caring for the game and mutes all rather than spam ff/afk. I cant win games with 20 kills in emerald because player have such a bad mentality thinking they know everything about the game and proceed to either ff prematurely or int? Most of these guys dont even mean to do that they just do it because "get me out XD lol unplayable" and some of them even admit they do it and what can i do then. Idk if there's a way to prevent this, but i genuinely think there's a fallcy in the system about matchmaking or some stuff that just puts u in a sort of losers q, otherwise how can i explain that im 50% wr stuck in plat-emerald on an acc while climbing fairly easy in diamond at the same time? "main" acc: www.op.gg/summoners/euw/%CE%91%CF%85relion%20Sol-STARS second/"smurf" acc: www.op.gg/summoners/euw/Cleurnit-EUW
I've literally never understood why surrender is even a thing. I mean, running it down mid is not allowed but exploding your own nexus is? HOW are we not noticing something's wrong here? "Well in surrender everyone agrees", yea, in 5 people surrender sure, but if there's even only one person willing to play the game, are the other 4 allowed to run it down mid? No, so why should they be allowed to instantly explode the nexus, which is even worse? Surrender is objectively the MOST toxic behaviour you can have in League, it's just normalized for no reason.
@@geoDB. Yes, you start soloq, you have to finish the game, you know it before queueing up. You have to respect every single person of your team, if someone (even one person) wants to play a winnable game (so every soloq game) you have no right whatsoever to take away his lp
@@harrystyles7466 Your comment is actually very interesting, 'cause it highlights how people that are toxic in one field, tend to be toxic in general (wasting other people's time, 0 arguments, insulting). Thanks for proving my point
You gave a lot of guarantees in this video without proper backup sources. How can anyone trust what you are promising? "Within this timeframe, X people will get accustomed to Y". Who says that? A lot of presented arguments in this video are the same, you try to debunk data without providing data yourself. It is a nicely made video, but to me it seems more of a "try to believe in the power of friendship" type of video then one that actually provides counter data to provide a debate on even ground.
Voice chat would save league. Even with all the bullshit in the game and the amount of toxicity there is, having an actual team-oriented experience where people can see if someone is truly trolling or not would make things sm better
Most people would be less toxic and the small minority that would be more toxic u can just mute. VC needs to be in League it would make the game a lot more fun and interesting and might even let u know new cool people.
No thanks, the last thing I want is 4 random teammates that all stream on twitch talking to their 5 viewers during a match, it would tilt me off the planet. 😂
Phenomenal video, you and the Broken By Concept podcast are the two figures in the scene I see making the most positive changes, thanks for practicing what you preach. You are simultaneously teaching valuable lessons outside of league with this video and your philosophy as well.
I remember when I first started playing a few months back I was part of the ff 15 culture since that's just how I thought the game was supposed to be. After learning more about the game and watching your vids I decided to stop surrendering and it's incredible how much more fun the game is when you don't give up immediately. This morning my Katarina rage quite after dying repeatedly in lane like an idiot and despite it being a 4v5 we almost brought it back. Even though we didn't win I think everybody that played it out had a good time. Not to mention I've had crazy comebacks in seemingly unwinnable games that never would have happened if I gave up. So even if this video doesn't end up changing most peoples minds, I want you to know that your words have at least changed one player for the better.👍
I agree as someone who just recently got into DOTA 2. The game doesn't have a surrender option unless you are on a 5 stack and they have a pretty harsh consequences on AFK/Leavers. So you are incentivized to playout >40 minute game or else you'll get punished. The game heavily revolves around counters. Heroes picks specifically to counter a hero, items that can counter a hero and items that can also counter said items. Making the game heavily requiring teamwork. Yes there are still flaws on the game like the community is arguably more toxic than League and spending over 40 mins per game with them can still be exhausting. But that hit of dopamine where you win a game that is near unwinnable because of 1 good team fight where everyone on the team clutched it out for the win.
That's unfortunate that you kept getting toxic players in your games, I for one only get like a 2-5 games every 100 games. Maybe you have been put in losers queue, it's not like the loser queue of league (win/lose) but as in a queue for toxic losers and smurfs go and get matched together. It's completely different/separate from behaviour score. This just a heads up for you as you're new to dota. Glhf.
Yeah, I love that in Dota you can’t just surrender, people just don’t know how to use this option. There are games ofc that are unwinnable when enemies have 20k gold lead on 15-20 minute mark, they play as a team, you’re just a saver support and your team lacks any kind of composition but those games are as rare as BiS item drop in ARPG so most of losing games are winnable. And even if you still lost try to appreciate good moments from your last game, analyse your mistakes and enemies’ good plays, play the game and not just roll yourself a victory in roulette
+250lp for tryharding 100 seemingly lost games is not worth it. Your calculation about that is very wrong, playing those 100 games than ffing them will cost you at least 1000 minutes(10 minutes for each not ffing). Which equals at least 25 more games you play if you ff them(40 min for each game which is obviously more than it is in reality nowadays). And lets say you are averaging %55 winrate. Which equals to 13.75 wins and 6.25 loses. And i am assuming that you got +26 -24(pretty normal lp gain, yes some of you gettin -30 +20 but in this season majority of the players gets this kind of lp) in total you would lose 150lp and gain 357,5lp which comes to the total of +207,5 lp. FF being not an option is obviously a terrible idea if you think about it. Also a wrong assumpiton you make in the video is that no one knows anything about the game. I guarentee you that if we show 10 people 10 games from their elo at minute 15, at least 5 people would guess at least 5 game's outcome correctly. Yes very majority of the playerbase would make their guesses less than %60 accuracy but that doesnt mean that they shouldnt ff at 15 when literally %80 of the team wants to get out. If you are a gold player in a full gold lobby you can solocarry the game because you know the basics of the game at that point and of your enemy throws and you happen to be playing a mid/late game hypercarry champion you might win 3-4 of 100 seemingly lost games. But an iron player in iron lobby would never ever solocarry a game in his elo. Iron players doesnt even know what 3\4 of all champions does, doesnt even know more than half of the items, doesnt know rotates or any macro, do not farm, do not get objektives etc. You would say that "but their enemy are the same elo, they dont know those things either" you would be correct but when in an extremely low elo game (silver and below) if you happen to get ahead you do not need these knowledge as much as the losing team needs. You just brute force fights for 30 minutes straight and when enemy has a 22 3 7 kda 6 items at 17 minutes draven, you cant win that game and its absolutely normal. But the point he says "being able to ff makes people do not try their best" is absolutely true. FF system surely needs improvement but shouldnt be completely removed. Since i am not the 'youtuber' or 'streamer' my opinions will matter very less against his but if you reading my comment i strongly suggest you to think about the numbers he throw out which are extremely wrong. Especially that "lets say you can win 5 of those 'unwinnable' matches you would get +250lp" part is so wrong. And all of the arguments assume that vast majority of players cant say a game is absolutely lost. Which is not very true as i explained. Being able to 'win' a game and being able to 'tell if you can win a game or not' is very different from each other. Yes players like Nemessis, or you are absolutely way, way more better than %95 of people but i dont think that anyone cant say if they can win or not. Please think before blindly agreeing someone. Especially in shorts, what he says are very manipulative because of short time caused lack of details in that format. He seems rational via agreeing with other side of the argument on non important or very obvious parts but in reality this video manipulates the thought process of viewers at '+250lp' part. "If you want to climb, mathematically speaking it is in your best interest to play everthing out." is completely false as i explained above and this is the main argument of non ff side. Yes, it is in your best interest to play everthing out when it comes to learning the game, improving yourself etc. But its definitely not in your best interest to play every single game as far as it goes in LP vise. People spamming ff is a huge issue but the solution is not just removing the ability to ff. The game has many more balancing and rewarding issues when it comes to ranked and most of ff spamming problem is caused by other problems like these two problems. If anyone wonders who am i to talk i have grandmaster 360lp peak at Turkey server. Yes, Turkey server is worse than EU, NA or KR but i get 100+ ms at EUW so i cannot play other regions. I am obviously not KR challenger like Azzapp but i dont think my opinions on this topic is worthless. Also i wanna thank Azzapp for the video too because even though i strongly disagree with him most of the times but he surely brings up important topics for us to discuss. I hope this helps you see other side than video creator. I may made mistakes on my statements too, i would be happy if you were to correct them.
Coming off Dota/Dota 2, i feel like surrender being an option is already a set down, people want to FF after 1 death, now it might be that some matchups are already hard and that 1 kill sets it off the edge but this surrender mentality is terrible and i hope the players that love it they don't do it IRL. Also, GIVE VOICE CHAT, we spent billions of years of evolution to learn how to communicate without gestures and i come to this game and the only option i got is spam pings.
Since I have started talking about this issue I have noticed a minor change in the game. The point did reach a lot of good faith people who tried it out and reported incredibly positive feedback. Pretty much every solo q game I play people reference "never ff", "try hard" mentality to me which is a big deal. It means that the opinions have seeped into the community and that there is hope. If you have any arguments or criticism feel free to post them below, I welcome all sorts of feedback. Let's make this community awesome and the game as fun as it can be in all it's glory.
I'm with you on red pill never surrender but to say it's the number one reason games are lost is wildly WILDLY off base.
Edit: there needs to be a LP loss prevention for people who vote no.
Regarding the trolls in champion select (disco nunu, jungle yuumi, etc.). I would very much like it if Riot had some sort of list of champions that are considered troll picks and implement a way to detect them mid-game.
E.g. Your team has a jungle, the jungle picks a normal jungler. Someone else on your team picks yuumi with smite. Now, at this point that potential troll might actually be cooking something illegal. Now attach to that potential troll some tracker which follows their impact on the game.
--Does the troll skyrocket in deaths?
--Does the troll take camps during the early game from your jungler?
--Some other relevant tracker.
The game instantly ends if these things are noticed. Awards the opposing team a small token LP gain for having suffered through a bad quality game. The loosing team is not penalized with lost LP. The Troll is instantly banned for the rest of the day.
This should not be hard to implement.
We already have the roles, the champions and the metrics.
Just have to combine them and have some human check the troll pick list every once in a while to update it by removing/adding champions.
I agree a lot with your never ff mentality in anything below diamond atleast.(never got higher so cant judge) However something I've realized that is way worse than ff'ing is people straight up refusing to try and win. In my personal experience I have not felt like ff'ing was a huge part of my losses. In around 160 games I only had 1 ff that was completely unnecessary. (All others were us all dead and enemy hitting nexus) I way more often have very winnable games and people refusing to play for their Wincon and just doing whatever. Maybe im just to shit at the game to create winning plays but idk what i should do when my team tries to facecheck the 5 item toplaner at 25min and that instantly loosing the game even though we couldve easily just cleared waves. Tldr sry for being shit at explaining but ppl give up without ffing which makes the game feel shit so to me its more just a looser mentality rather than ff culture.
@@Alliancewolf another one would be proximity to an even or player favored teamfight then if that distance increases without abilities being used it means they were baiting teammates.
I understand the never ff mentality, as I nearly never surrender myself, I'm an ornn main and we scale harder then fresh wine.
However it's more of a mental battle.
Leauge players have a bad enough mental as is. But then you get the low elo lane bully players.
They loose lane? Now they know for the rest of the entire game they will not have fun.
Now you have players who are playing worse because they are tilted 3 minutes into the game. And useful pings to help your team go out the window when you have to mute bad players.
Now you have a tilted team who doesn't play for the group just trying to get a kill for fun.
It's not that it's unwinnable, but I understand those who wanna leave a team that looses early, I don't wanna babysit a 2 million mastery janna that's been hardstuck this rank for the last 7 seasons.
Nor wish to help teammates I've been essentially forced to mute to focus on my own lane and jungler.
People are playing League as it was a loot box, any bad opening just make people rage and wanting to just go open the next box instead of actually playing and enjoying a match.
Botlane goes 0-3 pretty much fast as possible and our jungler goes “ff15 plz” and starts “testing things”. Aka running into enemy jungle feeding. After all that, we EASILY won the single legit team fight of the match. The game was easily winnable, if not for people mentally giving up as soon as that 0-3 was on the board
@@ragerontilt4778 The problem are champs hyperscaling from those 3 kills, Katarina roaming bot for three free kills? Inplayable game for mid and bot since Kata now is fed and will 1 shot everything from now on, oh top fed the darius? welp GG go next
@@GrEEnF1Re1 the missed the back half where i said we beat them anyway if people aren't just running it down, but cherry picking is cool i guess.
@@ragerontilt4778Thats not cherry picking is literally reality. Some champs are disgusting with 3 kills and it only goes downwards ( and especially if the matchmaking is rigged and they are higher elo than your entire team)
@@GE_Photon_LordMatchmaking is rigged. On other news, the moon landing was fake and the Earth is flat
It ruins botlane for me. Most of the champs there aren't even champions before reaching 2 items (so minute 20 or so). I rarely have a game that didn't already have 2 surrender votes by the time we can actually start team fighting.
It also creates a game, where people pick the strongest lane bully, flip the game and FF15 if they lost. It's so unfun.
I can relate to this. ADC is an absolute nightmare role to play. Even the contrary happens, when I finally get strong, and before I can even use my strength, the other team FFs. So lame
just get monk mindset (: and /mute all on first toxic ping😊
@@zacharywolfgangbecker2386you are gonna get oneshot anyway if enemy team is fed, you aren't gonna make any difference
As a top laner who used to spam ff after failing to lane bully my opponent I realize my mentality is why toplane often feels useless. If all you want to do is ff when you start falling behind then no shit the roles that have delayed value (top and bot) are both gonna feel shitty and blame everyone else
WRONG. ADCS SUCK IN LATE GAME
I've been trying the no ff mentality recently. It didnt have much impact in my number of wins/loses, but IT HAD A BIG impact im my enjoyment of the game, it is way more fun to focus in what you can do to improve/impact, than to be tilted by loses.
100% i agree with you. Im not particularily good and want to keep getting better and know i have a lot to improve. But i've had WAY more fun as a result.
it takes time to affect your wr. trust me.
Same here, the game seems more playable and challenging. Also Hwei did this
@@sooslokosvivemSaaame! I absolutely love hwei and it feels so satisfying to outplay someone as hwei. The only person i 100% struggle against is Fizz.. not fun against him but even against yone its interesting!
real
Isolating yourself from the win/lose aspect of the game, and playing it for the sake of playing a cool computer game is the best thing you can do.
The best game I've ever played, the most fun I had was a season 5 match, we were loosing most of the game. It lasted 67 minutes and we did end up loosing but we made the enemy team work for it. Even with a loss I remember it clear as day. Thinking to myself after the match "Damn, that was a good game". Wasn't mad or disapointed. Just satisfied.
You saw this way more back in the day.
I played since season 2, and the games were more 40-50 minutes in length back then. I was a pretty low rank so perhaps my enemies/allies didn't know how to close out a game, but damn was it fun.
I remember playing a game where there was an enemy kha zix that was like 20+ kills and 3-4 deaths. At minute 50 if you walked 2 meters into jungle you get oneshot by him.
my whole team banded together, playing so well, warding, playing objectives, taking good fights and we managed to turn it around and win a 60+ min game.
And the whole team was non toxic, nobody complained or flamed, everybody was just giving their thoughts on best strategies to win.
Peak game performance.
@@jozokrstanovic9040 I myself started when Hecarim came out, idk the precise season but around season 2-3 so yeah, I was there bro. Damn I miss those days.
@@ChesterZirawin it was season 2
I started when Varus came out and that was season 2, hecarim came out earlier.
nah gotta keep up my 30% surrender rate
I had a similar mindset with master duel, I would give up once I saw a certain archetype or combo I knew my deck would lose to. I kept getting mad that I couldn't understand how to play certain decks cause I couldn't get any "winnable" games but once I started playing through duels I knew I would lose i learned certain interactions and combos that I never realized. The game started being a lot more fun when I had the mindset of "how can I break the opponents board" rather than "how will my opponent kill me this time"
Very well edited video. I hope this issue won't flow under the radar. Something needs to change.
also the option that allow you to ,,turn off” ff pop would be nice
Stopped playing league for a while, and came back after watching your shorts about the ff culture. Tried having fun while losing, as long as i played well, and it truly changed my way of enjoying the game. I even had fun yesterday on a ranked with my jungler running ghost ignite lol.
Hope ppl will convert too.
I’ve had the no FF mentality before even know azzapp and I’m glad that there is a youtuber who is teaching and preaching it. I literally never touch the ff button no matter what. Even if the enemy is 10 kills ahead. I want and need the experience of late game and I know that there are chanced for us winning still because there has been many games like that for me.
i think one big factor to ff culture is that for a lot of people, winning is not the objective of the game, but getting fed and become a god, destroying the nexus is not as fun as killing the enemy team, so if they realise that they are not getting to enjoy the fantasy of being overpower, it doesnt matter that the game is winnable and my can carry me, surrendering is better because it lets them try again to get fed sooner.
absolutely, people below diamond don't even want to end games
Was never huge on surrending but I know I did give up fairly often. the past week I have switched to no ff and I have not only been more fulfilled by games but even improvements to my own play
one of us must be living in an alternate reality... you're telling me that not only do your teammates vote yes, but they're even voting yes in winnable games?
Yea, this is definitely a high elo problem. Low elo is rampant with hostage.
Since I began playing all the way to the moment I stopped, there is one thing that stayed in my head: "Never surrender!". My best memories of this game is that of a losing game where the enemy got cocky and made little mistakes up to a catastrophic one only for us to win it by a hair.
Hey azzapp as someone who barely ffs this resonates with me. Although my surrender rate is low because I wanted to keep the rarely surrenders badge that professor gives prople that always vote no. I main top and usually i am 0 0 or 0 2 and play for objectives so it annoys me to no end when ppl only look at kda when league is an objective based game and about 80% of the games are a 50 50 where those with better mental end up winning
It's not the BIGGEST problem. The bigger problem is the matchmaking. Teams are not balanced. When someone who is elo inflated plays against someone who is at their actual rank or even worse smurfing. The skill level difference causes the top, bot, mid, or jungle to be 7k gold up at the end of the game. At lower elos like emerald, plat, or gold this difference is insurmountable in my opinion.
The surrender pop-up is so cancer. Most of the time when we are losing I'm not even thinking about surrendering but obviously because of my impulsive nature I tend to tilt and either blame myself for playing poorly or lash out at my teammates for ruining a game where I performed. Then I see the ff button and it just tilts me even more and takes out any bit of motivation I had left.
TLDR: I have a theory with no data to back it up and all the data that contradicts my theory is obviously wrong
ive tried your recommendation for some time now and im happy to say its working. ive had multiple games where my team tilted early and i was able to keep them in and win (although most of the time i was the one fed one on the team)
Some of the most fun games that I've played are the ones that even if lost from
The biggest problem I have with the arguments like "I can only play x amount of games I don't want to waste that time" is that the people making these arguments are not coming from an angle where they are actually having fun playing the game. If you can only play 2 or 3 games per week and you are already in the headspace that you know theres a chance you don't enjoy those 2 or 3 games, maybe the real answer is you just shouldn't play the game. So many people bringing up the "unfun" game arguments, if you can't enjoy playing the game while losing you probably just shouldn't play the game at all.
I remember playing back in 2010-2015. When I enjoyed league the best.
My friends and I would go play our seperate ranked games and then meet up during Lunch the next school day and we would be sharing stories how we were 10 kills behind or be stuck in a 4v5 and end up winning the game.
How our Draven ran it down three times after he got first blooded but then he decided to play and we won.
The crazy neck to neck base racing at 40 minutes, down to the last wire, we aren't going to make it so someone backs gets a triple and buys us time to end the game. Everything back then just felt so epic.
It's sad that those same friends are the type to die twice, say the game is over and just have a defeated attitude for the rest of the game.
When you play on a sports team, you don’t give up and sit down on the field after the enemy scores a point, you keep pushing till the very end. So when you queue up and commit yourself to a match with 5 teammates, don’t give up after one or two things go wrong, keep pushing not only for yourself but for the people you AGREED TO PLAY WITH WHEN YOU PRESSED FIND MATCH AND ACCEPT
had a game where we had a bot of a lux sup. she backed at 10% HP in front of enemies and died (just one of many things she did that were indicative of being a bot) Whole team wanted to FF but we got some solid yorick maiden solo pushes taking around 8 structures and we ended up winning. That feeling, that exhilaration, I will never forget how it felt when we won. That is why I never give up. (I was the Yorick)
This latest season made me quit league. I peaked at Emerald, but the games became too toxic across the board for me. I think the changes you suggested, if implemented, would bring me back: voice chat, the surrender box being moved to tab, no ff, or at least no ff pre 15 and then it needs 5-0 before 20 and 4-1 for post 20. I would give ladder another chance if these changes were made. But for now I'm having so much more fun playing single player games. Thanks for the video Azzapp! You a real one.
I understand your issue with it, but from someone who has played the game since season 1, the current playerbase is by far the worst it has ever been.
My peak rank was masters, rank roughly 960 on the EUW leaderboard (although this was a few seasons ago as I quit playing the game seriously in season 9)
You can play a game and be in diamond, emerald, platinum or even gold and the game has zero improvement in quality. I haven't played a game in the last 3/4 seasons where anyone on my team understands macro, not once.
The most basic fundamentals of the game have just been made irrelevant and it has turned into which team has someone inting, and which one doesn't.
You can basically make D2 rank in solo que, by playing top lane and just split pushing with zero awareness of the game as long as you understand your champ.
To me personally that is poor. Seasons 5-7 once you hit platinum people tended to have the understand of basic math. So we have our bot lane in base and mid half hp no mana, lets not do dragon. But nope, basically every single game past 10mins, people do not understand when to take objectives and when to fight ect. It's just brainless walking places or hitting objectives because thats what your supposed to do, rather than look at the game state and understand when you take those fights or objectives.
I get that this is a team game and that not everyone is going to be on the same page, but teamwork isn't something exclusive to league of legends.
You can get to high rank on other games and people will 100% understand how to push the lead and win the game, but on league it's different. Ego players have taken over who refuse to understand what there win condition is and they think like cavemen who see champion kill champion, rather than the bigger picture.
Like genuinely at this point if you did an IQ test on league players I swear to god it would be incredibly bad, like 50IQ average I swear, I used to pay attention to it and care but at the moment when I log in and play a game every now and then, it's the same issue it has had for 5 seasons. Brainless players running it down, not getting punished or getting into ranks and been stuck there because they cant go lower and refuse to accept they can improve so they just sit 1000 games in a rank bracket with there ego saying 'It's always my teams fault'
That is why personally I am someone who is like 'ff it' because I know generally 15 mins into the game either my team will lose this because they aren't smart enough to do the correct things to win the game or not. Yes they could be 10-0 but if you are brainlessly pushing lane without vision, sooner or later you will die and give your bounty and the other team will know what to do with it if they are smarter than you.
The game is no longer better team wins, it's which idiot is going to throw the game harder.
I enjoy playing lol for 6 years as a Akali main. I recently lost the game due to my teammates surrendering, and I was lvl 13 clearing the mid lane.
This puts me in a sour spot and ruined my enjoyment in LoL ☹️
15:35
Another argument for the tick on scoreboard is actually fighting against hostaging, because in my experience more often than not the ones who take the game hostage are not players who are tilted from start, but players who want to surrender, then if two people press no they feed the enemy team beyond care, don't play the game and when others want to surrender because that one dude doesn't want to play, THEN they take everyone hostage. If there's a tick, then that one person wouldn't just change their mind based on if anyone surrenders or not, but will just put a tick and do his thing if he wishes to troll the game so much.
Also maybe put heavier attention to people who want to surrender, maybe if their death count goes up significantly after they press surrender vote, then you punish them, even if it's just a text pop-up or low priority for one minute. Why can't we have a commission of higher elo players reviewing games of players who are suspected of cheating/soft trolling in general? Like CS:GO is a perfect example where this worked perfectly, Valve just allowed people to do their work for them while also giving big high elo streamers additional content where they can review games in an entertaining manner.
And this is besides the point, but PLEASE add voice chat. People just don't see pings until like high dia, no matter how much you ping, no matter what you ping, most of the time they act like they're blind. It's really hard to ignore audio cues rather than visual ones when league is already overloaded with places your eyes want to be regularly. Not only that, but that would make teamfights WAY more consistent and entertaining, since people would actually be able to communicate what they can do, will do or want to do in real time and without having this stupid restriction on pings (tbh I didn't enjoy even the initial restriction before they changed the system to where nobody liked it.)
Great video, I hope some day they will fire people that actually deserve to be fired instead of getting rid of good game developers and finally fix the parts of the game that should feel enjoyable, because there are a lot of problems even outside of the balancing department.
The "only 3% of failed early-surrenders finished with a win" reminds me of survivorship bias. Because if majority of the players in your team wants to surrender early and didn't, they will likely starts trolling to sabotage the non-surrenderers. Now imagine a world where ALL players were actually trying in their games.
It's totally true what you are saying. I get the feeling that people are playing with an entitlement point of view and then like spoiled brats, they want to get out the moment something is not going their way. ANYTHING competitive is not a guarantee and you as a team needs to work towards victory. You don't see this in football nor rugby. I think the only place that you do see this giving up is in motorsport, but that is because you have complex systems within the vehicle that can hinder you from continuing, let alone doing so competitively. But even then, especially in endurance racing, competitors WILL FIND A WAY to fix the car to a good enough state to continue. I saw it in the Bathurst 12h a couple of weekends ago where a team literally got parts from a similar car in a different class, that has finished its race for the weekend, to compete in the 12h.
Players, the fact that you clicked on accept doesn't mean you will win, it means that you are willing to compete. Life does not have an eject button and EVERYTHING you go through, good and bad, has a good thing in it, a lesson. It should spark an investigative mindset for you to learn from and get better. Not all of us can do it ourselves and need help and it is up to us, the community of who can do so, to help the players that are asking for help out of good will, because face it, not everyone can afford coaching. I, for one, am barely scraping through on a monthly basis. If we can drop our ego's and reach out to the players and help them get better instead of rubbing their faces in the dirt, we can build a much more positive community than what it is.
You might be better at the game, but you're flunking your grades in school while the guy you are playing against could be working around 40-60h a week, and have a place and a car of his own. Who is actually better off? There's a lot more to the life than being good at a game and not everyone has the same privileges you have, so it gives NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to be an asshole towards someone else. If you have a bad game you don't want people, especially your teammates, to rub it in, so why would you do it to someone else?
We are teammates. People who picks those up that fell down and cross the finish line together. A team that fights within itself will never win.
I have recently started playing through games even though it's not going well, and at least 30% of the time that someone is super duper fed on the enemy team, we still win the game because we scale up, or play as a team better, or get a pick on the fed player. And I'm a bronze/silver player, so I can only imagine as you move up in the ranks this % get's bigger
As someone who came to league somewhat recently (4-5 months ago) I still find it completely ridiculous how easily people give up. Even if the game was 100% lost there is still something to be learned. Seems like 99% of league players, do not see value in failure.
Riot has the technology to determine how close games are to determine when to give objective bounties. One thing I would like to see is require a unanimous vote at any time limit if the game is remotely close.
I always cast my surrender vote last and I only surrender if everyone else wants to. I’ve been in matches where the enemy had a 20 point lead and we turned it around.
Another idea would be to give every player the option to start a surrender vote once per game and it always has to be 5 times yes. I play so many games where my team surrenders its incredibly infuriating. I have a friend who always declines the ff votes with me so at least occasionally i have one person that keeps me from getting thrown back into lobby from a winnable game.
90% of the time, I never ff, unless I get into that extremely passive games where your team is 20-50, and they refuse to group or fight any objective + 2-3 of the enemy team just farm kills+objectives and it turns in a 40 min game where we just farm and they just dont wanna finish
I know it might be winnable, but its extremely boring, like being held hostage in a game with teammates that are waiting for a miracle to happen yet they do nothing to help each other and it becomes a coin flip teamfight at min 45 (emerald-diamond)
I realize that I get into those games if my teammates are those rare kind of players which value KDA over anything, even if that means forcing your team into a 3v5 or 4v5, I usually tryhard those, but its exhausting. Love the games where everyone is willing to cooperate, even if we are giga behind
I personally think that another huge problem in league and especially in solo-queue is hidden MMR. Both Starcraft II and HotS had this problem until they just gave up and threw the numbers in player's face, so instead of "You don't know your rating and you don't know when the promotion will be" it's simple and elegant chess-like ELO system with "You have 2400 MMR and you need 2700 to get 1 division. If you're playing against +300 MMR player you will give 40 and lose 20. If you are playing against -300 MMR player you will get 20 and lose 40" simply because in 1v1 scenario it's much more likely to outplay person who is 2 division lower (the same goes to every sport by the way. Table tennis, big tennis, chess, martial arts, etc.)
I've been in both losing -15 getting +25 and getting +17 losing -24 and it's fucking awful. If player truly belongs somewhere higher ELO system and MMR especially should represent this by open numbers not some hidden shit that no one knows how it works. The same goes to RIOT support, I have never received more frustrating answer to a problem than "We are sorry to hear this, but your hidden MMR is shit so you need to play 50 more games in order to equlize it"
Ever since I started playing league in season 6, I always drag the surrender box out of my screen, the popup is discouraging and tilting. People express their frustration through a surrender call and its always an emotional call rather than a methodical one. People need to try harder, stomp games are never fun
Not sure if its just my unranked MMR being f-ed but a decent amount of games in quick play/draft is people going "I'm here for the S rank/chest, I can't get it anymore, why play" after getting *slightly* behind
Its quite funny how Riot lets you 4-1 surrender in League ranked while in Valorant ranked the votes have to be 5-0...
Also I feel like ff culture is quite abusable in climbing because if you never ff, your team only needs 1 more no-vote where as enemy team ALWAYS will need 2 to not get the ff through
This video pretty perfectly echoes my sentiments since i started playing League last year, i never understood the idea of surrendering in other situations than when the game is obviously lost but the enemy team just dont want to end cause they want to troll the losing team by like, camping the fountain.. at that point i agree its a waste of time but aslong as you can have all members of the team killing creeps and get experience and gold the game will naturally reach a stage where any advantages earlier will even out. Besides, whats the point of queueing up if you dont wanna play the game? Im "okay" with the unanimous vote thing cause ill never vote and if i have 4 players on my team that actively dont want to continue playing the game then id rather go to a new game where my team mates want to play instead of people bickering and being toxic to each other but i can also see the argument how that being an option feeds into people having weak mentals and so on... So i get your argument for sure
One of the reasons that I dont ff is that I hate waiting in queue for like 5 minutes champ select another 5 mins just to play a 15 minute game
id love to see the surrender button turn into a check box on the scoreboard. you can click it any time you like, you can uncheck it at any point, whenever it reaches 5/5, the game ends. if it hits 5/5 at 45 seconds, well rules are rules, game ends. after 20 minutes, make it 4/5. idk, after 45 minutes, 3/5 passes, maybe? some people did not expect a 45 minute match, maybe something happened irl, sorry guys gotta run. after 100 minutes, 1/5 surrender votes passes, to put a hard cap on game length, perhaps. if you havent won almost 2 hours deep into the game, theres gotta be some hostage situation going on, right? numbers could obviously be fiddled with
My favorite part is when people play scaling champions and ff at 15. Like bro why are you a Kayle/Nasus/Veigar main if you give up this fast without scaling.
I've won way too many games from a singular shaco box giving a pick into an ace and end past 30mins. Comebacks are just as likely. Fed players get cocky. Everyone sucks equally.
Emerald elo is a purgatory and I thought it was impossible to beat with a 50% winrate but I've finally beat it playing only sup shaco and never surrendering even the most dire games. Especially when the lp gains were fucked and you lost 32 for one loss vs winning 22 for a win, these ff15 games were very punishing.
LP gains seem to be fixed now however thank god
Its your take cause you are a streamer and you are playing this game 24/7. Im diamond player that plays from time to time has 60% winrate. When i get stomped in lane I dont want to waste my time especially if im after work. Sure if im 0/5 in lane I wont int if my team has a chance of winning but if every lane is lost and nobody wants to play that much than what is the point. I have other things to do or play next :) I understand your perspective but most people are casual players and not tryhards.
I think what you said covers just high elo (Master+). Let me give you the issues low elo has (I was emerald last season, I barely play now. Hope I stop playing the game):
1. Boosted accounts: specifically at d4 rank. It is so easy to buy them, even popular streamers have links with websites and guarantee that they won 't get banned.
2 report system: I report players for specific reasons, and I get in the next match players that ruin the game with the same way.
3. Ban system: There are players with constintatly bad performances, stuck in the same rank, ruining the game for the rest. I believe Riot should ban them from ranked games for the rest of the season.
4. mmr. Too many issues since it 's existence. If you would get even 3 more lp guaranteed for any win, than what you lose (for example +25 for win, -22 for lose), people would value more a win.
5. Players mindset. The reason I was playing rank, was because I never felt that my opponents were even close to my lvl. And this should be the only reason to play rank. When you reach your limit, stop playing because you ruin the experience for those that try to climb. If your goal is to climb ranks, play normal games, become better, then come back. It took me 2 years playing before starting ranked games, because I respected the people that value the elo.
6. ego. I personally played most of the times jg in order to control the game easier. I didn 't just ping my team, I literally wrote direct instructions on what to do when dragon spawns for example. And then happens the opposite and lose the game. I believe voice chat would solve this issue at some extent. But when I report these people for taking actions against the team, I want to see a feedback that this guy, got permanent ban. When you try to play with your team, because it is a team game after all, and they refuse, I just don 't wanna spend any more time with these people. It is not any more about win or lose.
7 matchmaking: This is the most important for me. Riot should create a system where for ranks, having good stats, would work in your favor. Among the people of the same rank (everyone should be emerald 2 for example), put the people with the better stats in the same team, against the other 5. With this way anyone would try to do the best on their games, wouldn 't surrender so easily and most important those that perform well, would get direct benefit from it. I had 60% winrate with wukong in emerald, but still was top 50 in my server. And yet never felt that I got rewarded, neither from mmr nor from matchmaking. And that 's why I was surrendering
As someone who mostly plays single player games, returning to league was a strange experience. The community seems to have forgotten that they play the game to have fun, not to win. It can be fun to be behind, it can be fun to win from a losing beginning. If you go to the community of any other game they don't see every failed attempt as wasted time, the attempts are the fun, its you playing the game - victory is a reward for playing well.
Then come the people that will talk about bad teammates and losers queue or whatever, which is also weird to me. Bad teammates are just hard mode. If you're good you should be able to carry. Losers queue means the matchmaking system thinks you can carry. What you have is loser's mentality on a carry queue.
You literally play a pvp game to win. You have fun if you win not when you lose. When I play path of exile Im always having fun since you cant lose anything, its you vs monsters.
@@GE_Photon_Lord You play a pvp game to compete. Half of all games end in a loss. By that logic half of all time spent in a pvp is absolutely wasted.
You also attempt to win in PoE btw, its literally the same thing, only you fight a computer instead of humans. That makes you focus on yourself, so when you lose you get better and eventually win and see all of that as one fun process. League is the same thing, just against humans.
@@YamiFlyZX
"The community seems to have forgotten that they play the game to have fun, not to win." - This is literally incorrect, you have fun when you win. Learning from loses is something else, but you can't say you have fun when you lose and learn something, like what? Learning is the effect that takes place after a frustrating lose.
"when you lose you get better and eventually win and see all of that as one fun process" - sure, you get better obviously, but this process is so frustrating and I guarantee you, no one sees this as being fun. It's literally like learning irl subjects, you literally only have fun after you fully grasped all the information and play with it.
Also in PvE games you "always win", it's not the same as playing vs humans. You can literally play and watch youtube at the same time in those kinds of games. I mentioned a pve game because again, you can't lose, meanwhile league has this 50% winrate effect like you said.
Also sure, you "compete" in league, but you always expect to win, that's what makes you play the game in the first place. So once again, have fun in league means a win, loses are not fun but grant you experience. It's not time wasted at all, 100% of the time is used at maximum capacity. But the problem is that you have 50% fun sort of speak.
@@GE_Photon_LordThat is not literally incorrect lol. A game can be very fun even if you lose at the end. What you assume as a universal truth is in my eyes a toxic mindset. You compare it to learning an IRL subject and it extends to that as well, its far easier to learn if you enjoy the process than if you see it as some painful transaction to get to the end. You don't "expect" to win, you attempt to win, and if it turns out you don't make it in the end that's fine.
BTW idk what games you've been playing but in PvE games you don't "always win". If you consider a gaming session in something like Dark Souls or Hollow Knight you will usually lose more than you win, and you can easily not advance at all in the whole session. Try reading about people doing Pantheon 5 in Hollow Knight. You can absolutely lose in a PvE game, you spend most of your time doing that in fact.
@@YamiFlyZX Cope harder, what you are saying is incorrect, every league player plays to win and has fun while winning, its an already known thing. Maybe you are the one assuming things.
I knew it was gonna be about ff before even clicking the video. FF is at its worst currently
I do agree with your opinion, but as a player that likes snowballing and winning early (so take this with a little of my bias) the only issue I have with no ff being in the game is that, in some cases even tho the games are winnable by lets say 40 minutes and something goes insanely bad in the early game and enemy team is giga stomping killing you on repeat, not allowing you to play the game, the game ends up being extremely unfun to play. Yes it could be winnable, yes if we try we can win but it's extremely unfun. I don't wanna play these extra minutes out by trying to either scale or wait for enemy team to fumble. But that's the only case where I would ff.
No way the editor did Oner dirty like that at 13:52... full T1 roster, except Oner is replaced by Canyon. I'm dead.
its funny because I played a lot of draft pick before I started getting into ranked and in draft pick we almost always surrendered which made it so I didn't know strategies on ending the game. when I played ranked it felt like I knew how to play chess but not how to checkmate.
Took a 4 year break from league and played a bunch of dota. It’s not the only reason why, but no surrender makes for a FAR less toxic and honestly, more fun game than league. I’ve come back to league. I think I truly like league more. But the no surrender makes dota a lot closer. The fact you’re STUCK with these teammates and you have to see it through means you are more kind, understanding, communicative, and focused. Imagine a basketball player knew they could just give up and go home at halftime.
Been playing this way since I started playing League. Only surrendering for remakes with an afk teammate(s). Highly recommend. I've won a ton of games I felt were lost, and I lost a couple games I thought were won. I'm not that great at the game (Silver elo), but it has been much more fun to learn to play out those really tough situations and find angles for comebacks because the enemy didn't know how to close out games.
I've also found it is more fun when you're winning to not have the enemy team surrender. It's much more satisfying to actually hit the nexus and win the game than it is for your opponents to just resign. It also creates some interesting situations where you thought you were winning super hard, and then realize it was always more close than that.
Is there an example of a game with that hidden surrender flag mentioned in the video? I love the idea, the best games are always the 20 minute wins my friends and I threw away in normals that turn into intense 45 minute back and forths.
Im surrendering only if teams goes 1kill (our) VS 45 kills (enemy) at 10th minute
This is hilarious, i wrote almost the exact same thing said in this video to Riot on a feedback e-mail. Forfeiting needs to go except under drastic circumstances.
As someone who only plays normal draft pick, I think the option to ff should stay in norms.
There is just one thing that I wanted to say.
Why do most people play games?
To get some good emotions from it. Joy, satisfaction, fun, whatever. Positive emotions are usually the main reason to play.
If your entire team except you is suffering from that game you are currently playing, what would make you think that it is a winable game? Do you really think that those people are somehow going to get their shit together and go for the win? And what if they don't?
In 19 out of 20 games, that means that you just force your entire team to sit for another 10-20 minutes of completely unenjoyable game just because of this 1 in 20 chance of getting some numbers.
And, please, remember that you can get them in ANY other game that is less miserable for you/your team.
Since watching your vids I really started to notice the ppl who just wanna ff 15 After 2 Minutes. You have Them in like every second game. For example just yesterday i had a Aatrox on my team and After one play at Minute 8 where my mid lane Duo didnt ping enemy missing and he died he wanted to ff and ran the Game down. And before he started to int he was Hard winning lane and me on botlane with my adc aswell. We couldve easily Turned it if he hadnt surrendered.
Not gonna lie, I dont play rankeds that much, but i had some insane games where we win while being A LOT from behind, those games are pure joy when you win those. I almost never ff because of those fun comebacks.
It's interesting how a faster game that's more rewarding for "lane winning or bust" players arrived so hard at ff15. Especially when I consider just how high the bounty gold comeback mechanics are versus older league. KDA is a far less accurate metric for tracking how much gold a champion has on them and it was never good in the first place.
ff15 also leaves a lot of questions on the table. Maybe that 10/3 assassin mid that's been eating well has no idea how to carry a winning position, fails to handle teamfights, and goes in to 1v5 then dies? Maybe the losing out of lane team has a better teamfight comp and gets a wombo on a greedy baron attempt + baron buff? You can't know if you don't get one team fight in first!
That one comeback moment when you cash out the "piggy banks" is far more rewarding in present league then old and isn't valued by the playerbase? Just crazy to me.
PS: I'm glad I missed so much of the mythic item meta. I assume being able to spike that hard on one item would make initial leads/gaps far harder to overcome.
i thank you sincerely azzapp for driving this mentality forward in such a grand scale. im not exaggerating if i say that you have single handedly increased by average game quality to some extent. because i see a lot more people (usually its just one guy in the game) but its a guy that previously would have given up and just afk or spam ff, but instead he says "its always winnable" or "never ff". i just have to assume that youre the main reason that this has increased in my games lately.
ps. the other day i had a guy run it down my game on purpose but our team just wouldnt give up, the enemy spammed "why no ff?" and got frustrated that we didnt surrender because they couldnt end the game. they tilted and threw the game and we ended up winning 4v5. one of the greatest and most enjoyable games ive played in my life. from this moment onward i will start spreading your message forward enthusiastically as well.
im never voting yes ever again. go azzapp ;D
they also used 3 ults and 2 flashes at 40min in order to kill a 0/19 ghost cleanse milio toplane. needless to say: it was NOT worth it XDD
It should only happen automatically when someone AFK and all lost points should go to that person (and maybe, if they find a way to detect troll, but it’s a bit touchy)
Yo azzapp, Im wondering if my most recent game was actually winnable. Granted it was a norm so no downsides to it but the game was going like shit for the first 15 and we make a comeback around the 25th minute. That also happens to be when our Seraphine APC started throwing, purposely missing Rs and split pushing at the worst possible times. Aside from mid and top everyone was behind in items and we had no drakes by the end, was there any possible moment to win there? Of course a load of info isnt involved but I am not about to type the story of a game in a UA-cam comment section.
How many times i had my team surrender 100% winnable games, how many times ive had my team surrender WHILE we were winning, and we only lost 1 fight.
Azzapp, you talked about learning more in a game of league by playing "high quality games" than spamming games.
I do not share this view as I do not learn anything new in playing any games. Leagues doesn't provide much in this side either and I would need to actually do some researches to learn more which contradicts the point of long games
Man.. Almost pulled my hair out on a fkin no faith having ass team that ff for absolutely no good reason but losing one team fight.. Man that sucks
the funniest thing I've ever seen is some poor guy in higher elo (streamer obviously) was in q for almost 20 minutes. then once he got in the enemy gave up at 15 exactly.
I normaly try to win my games until the end but sometimes you simply cant i main tank champs and you cant say the game isint snow ball when a 10k hp mundo gets kill in 4 seconds or bountis r good whe i can have a 1/12 yone and he will still give 400 gold shutdowns or more the comunity dosent help when they will start afk farming the jg so they can lose game faster but dosent count as AFK and dont get penalised
thank you for making this its never made sense to me that people would rather give up than play a game to the end especially because i play ranked pretty casually and just enjoy playing the game and learning how to improve and through this process I've been able to take games where we had a fully open nexus and their base was untouched and win them multiple times just even this month
I almost never FF, odds are someone on the other team is going to throw a fit and FF anyway. I don't play a ton and even then so many games turn around on comebacks. Started in silver this season and cruised into plat, felt like a good portion of games were comebacks. Also a Vel'koz OTP
my team on bronze, for the most part, doesn’t try in principle if the game is going well, they will play if not, they will continue to merge and then they call to give up, like, why play this already, although you yourself lost to Akali in the middle in 1/12
forfiets come from lack of team synergy, if you team feels as tho they cannot work with anyone to win and just trust one fed member to make all decisions for them. they rather go next.
That's just the consequence, the cause of the problem it's the very snowbally nature of the game (thanks for the disparity between gold gained playing passively farming vs gold gained just roaming and getting kills) and most importantly the level of play you can make with a single character is very low compared to number of players, in other games like DOTA you have a higher skill cap and power as a individual but also higher potential team play cause of it, making the differences between a normal player and a good one much more apparent.
One way to fix this problem would be reducing the gold gained on defeating enemies plus increasing the reduction of gold you give per death. Then increasing the gold gained by farming the lanes (to keep the same victory timer)
Okay listen, I am a massive surrenderer, I hate it. But I have a shit mentality cause of anger, but this video I watched it in its entirety, and it actually changed my mind. The biggest thing I took from it was the part where you said "you won't learn anything from short games and you will from playing out the tough ones" or somethig like that. I will 100% try this method, thank you man.
I don't get the mentality of "I work full-time and want to FF go next" I do actually work full-time and only get 12ish games a week to grind and I will never FF one of those 12 games. They are all I get and I want to play them out to completion and because of that and my journey to improve I'm higher than I've ever been. I won't dare waste a game on some pointless FF when I get so few to play. Each and everyone is a learning opertunity and each point of LP will need to be wretched from my hand before I give it up.
Thx for making this Ive hated ff ever since I started nearly as much as I hate yi. I honestly don’t understand why some of these players even play league and not do competitive coin flipping cuz they don’t care at all about the game play they just wanna see the win/loss screen.
I think the FF culture is just a symptom of leagues actual biggest problem, which is the fact that it is simply not enjoyable a lot of the time to play from behind. The game is only fun if you are winning, and it is miserable when you are losing. If you are 2/7/1 in midlane you are not having a fun time, even if your adc is 6/1/4 and can theoretically carry you. It is more enjoyable to just take the L by way of surrender, and queue up again for a game where you have a higher possibility of getting the lead, being the main character, and winning the game.
I pick Warwick and shit on the enemy top in the first 15 min. The enemy top loses mental and runs it down winning the game for us. Gotta play the system
They could make a toggle in setting were the ff vote never appears and you auto press no
I came back for the game last season and I was having a lot of fun playing, but now everygame ends, because everybody justs surrender because of this 1 vote difference and the games arent enjoyable as they were
Ibrahimović would never surrender
This man summed it up.
I bet nikola jokic doesnt ff either
Ibrahimović doesn't do a surrender
The surrender does an Ibrahimović
What about a personal option that you can disable the surrender popup and it'll be automatically considered as a no for all of your games unless changed.
Yes please I want this
YES ADD THIS
Gets needed item to turn the game
Nexus explodes out of nowhere
RIOT! EMPLOY THIS MAN ASAP
That sounds really good, but I doubt they will do that
Regarding the solution: I like the tick box idea, however I think as a further barrier to FF’ing, the pop up should remain, but with a catch. That is, if enough people have ticked the box, THEN the pop up appears.
That way someone who ticked the box early out of tilt but forgets to untick when they realize the game is winnable won’t randomly FF a game.
my thoughts exactly; i'd love to see this implementation
but taht's the point. You tilt ff once, lose a free game, you don't tilt ff twice
maybe implement a system where if someone starts an ff vote their team has a set amount of time to react to it, and if a ff doesnt go thru all ticks instantly go away
@@tekstego9654 it could get unchecked if an FF doesn't go through in like 1-2min
Another point to add: once you change your mindset, you will have fun in these "lost" games too.
Your fun shouldn't only come from winning, playing the game itself should be fun. This is why so many people play League and say it is miserable, they only have fun when they win.
I want to be challenged and overcome that challenge.
I take a 40 min close game that I lose, where we almost made a comeback, over a 15min complete stomp where I win EVERY TIME.
It's just more fun, never surrender
It's like playing a souls game for the first time. You get to the boss(or get killed along the way), die, reflect on where you messed up, improve and do better next time. And once you succeed, you feel the happiness and fulfillment rushing to your head and you enjoy the game more.
couldn't said it better 👍
Sorry, but i fail to find any fun in being oneshot on cooldown by (insert an asassin here) for 40 minutes, even if we win. +20 lp is not worth the 30 minutes of gray screen.
@@dominikkowalczyk3845 This is literally why I have dumped so many hours on those games because of the challenge and overcoming it. Same thing with League.
@@dominikkowalczyk3845 but the thing is you get stomped by the boss for half an hour and then you beat him, in league every single dark souls "death" is half an hour. Also in dark souls you rely on yourself and noone else, and the enemy(boss) itself is always the same difficulty which is consistency which is enjoyable to learn
I quit the game in s7 and came back to play normals with friends last October. I was shocked with how easily even they wanted to surrender. I told them that if their idea of the game is to stomp lane and hope the other team surrenders they might as well go to a casino instead of playing. Since then we never surrender even if we int our asses off and its hella fun cuz we actually win maybe 10% of those unwinable games (total guess btw but it feels that way) its also more fun to try and beat the fuckers that stomped us early… so glad we aren’t the only ones and people like you help the community change their mindset for the better!
winning that completely hopeless no comeback game from a single pickoff/teamfight that started a snowball is one of the best feelings in this game
I literally had the same experience as you. Stopped playing around season 7 and came back in October. One of my friends particularly would get so tilted if he lost lane and would immediately ask us to surrender at 15. Even if we were ALL WINNING our lanes. I was like, bro are you serious?
@@ripztubig4457 the mentality aspect of the game has fallen off a cliff...
@@nikolaitodorov1234 the community is too toxic for me to want to come back Tbh.
@@nikolaitodorov1234 glad you're having fun not ff'ng your bronze normals games mate :)
As a Master tier player, my character pool is full of scale/stack characters. Every time surrender pop up shows, it drives me crazy. I 100% guarantee you if my teammates trust me more than surrender pop up, I would single handedly won for them most of my lose matches.
they forgot late game champ exist...and they even forgot to play on late game as they keep surrendering early. How many times my Ryze is completely useless because they expect me to do bazillion damage on early while his damage spike is basically mid to late game where he had at least 3 or 4 (boots not included) to deal decent damage
@@imanjx2914not only that most champs nowadays scale even slightly besides a handful that fall off most of the time by just playing the game you end up winning off of comp alone without infinite scalers or kass/kayle/ryze
Sure, but most of the games (at least plat>emerald, were I am) people are just plain toxic and force you to play 45min games allthough they are 1-15 on a full tilt rampage. Your scenario would also be frustrating as a late game champ.
Me, me, me, me, me. It's all about me and me. Ask yourself a question. Did you do anything that will make rest of your team not trusting you? Because I can bet that your "me, me, me, me" attidue made at least some of them to say "fuck it, I'm not going to play this shit, let me out".
Because it's one thing to play scalling champ and the other thing is to be selfish dickhead.
otp aurelion sol here, i have a 67%wr acc in d4 rn, peaked master last season, i cant get out of emerald on my "main" account (the acc has existed for quite a bit of time and tbh seems like old mmr screwed it a bit, or idk). The thing is i notice a very real difference of game quality between my diamond acc and emerald stuck one, the people i meet in ranked on d4 are just so much more willing to play the game and also rarely troll than on the other acc, its been this way since placements so its not an elo diff, i literally get different people, even the guy who spams cringe stuff in champ select ends up caring for the game and mutes all rather than spam ff/afk. I cant win games with 20 kills in emerald because player have such a bad mentality thinking they know everything about the game and proceed to either ff prematurely or int? Most of these guys dont even mean to do that they just do it because "get me out XD lol unplayable" and some of them even admit they do it and what can i do then. Idk if there's a way to prevent this, but i genuinely think there's a fallcy in the system about matchmaking or some stuff that just puts u in a sort of losers q, otherwise how can i explain that im 50% wr stuck in plat-emerald on an acc while climbing fairly easy in diamond at the same time?
"main" acc: www.op.gg/summoners/euw/%CE%91%CF%85relion%20Sol-STARS
second/"smurf" acc: www.op.gg/summoners/euw/Cleurnit-EUW
I've literally never understood why surrender is even a thing. I mean, running it down mid is not allowed but exploding your own nexus is? HOW are we not noticing something's wrong here? "Well in surrender everyone agrees", yea, in 5 people surrender sure, but if there's even only one person willing to play the game, are the other 4 allowed to run it down mid? No, so why should they be allowed to instantly explode the nexus, which is even worse? Surrender is objectively the MOST toxic behaviour you can have in League, it's just normalized for no reason.
4 people vote one thing, one votes the other, the one person is more important than the four?
@@geoDB. Yes, you start soloq, you have to finish the game, you know it before queueing up. You have to respect every single person of your team, if someone (even one person) wants to play a winnable game (so every soloq game) you have no right whatsoever to take away his lp
Dota has no surrender you should try it
You should look up the word "objectively", m oron.
@@harrystyles7466 Your comment is actually very interesting, 'cause it highlights how people that are toxic in one field, tend to be toxic in general (wasting other people's time, 0 arguments, insulting). Thanks for proving my point
the surrender at 15 not needing 5 people anymore is one of the worst updates ever, its unbelievable how riot cant make one single good update
its pretty good option
You gave a lot of guarantees in this video without proper backup sources. How can anyone trust what you are promising? "Within this timeframe, X people will get accustomed to Y". Who says that?
A lot of presented arguments in this video are the same, you try to debunk data without providing data yourself. It is a nicely made video, but to me it seems more of a "try to believe in the power of friendship" type of video then one that actually provides counter data to provide a debate on even ground.
Voice chat would save league. Even with all the bullshit in the game and the amount of toxicity there is, having an actual team-oriented experience where people can see if someone is truly trolling or not would make things sm better
Most people would be less toxic and the small minority that would be more toxic u can just mute. VC needs to be in League it would make the game a lot more fun and interesting and might even let u know new cool people.
@@skeley6776 real.
No thanks, the last thing I want is 4 random teammates that all stream on twitch talking to their 5 viewers during a match, it would tilt me off the planet. 😂
Phenomenal video, you and the Broken By Concept podcast are the two figures in the scene I see making the most positive changes, thanks for practicing what you preach. You are simultaneously teaching valuable lessons outside of league with this video and your philosophy as well.
bbc gang rise up
I remember when I first started playing a few months back I was part of the ff 15 culture since that's just how I thought the game was supposed to be. After learning more about the game and watching your vids I decided to stop surrendering and it's incredible how much more fun the game is when you don't give up immediately. This morning my Katarina rage quite after dying repeatedly in lane like an idiot and despite it being a 4v5 we almost brought it back. Even though we didn't win I think everybody that played it out had a good time. Not to mention I've had crazy comebacks in seemingly unwinnable games that never would have happened if I gave up. So even if this video doesn't end up changing most peoples minds, I want you to know that your words have at least changed one player for the better.👍
I agree as someone who just recently got into DOTA 2. The game doesn't have a surrender option unless you are on a 5 stack and they have a pretty harsh consequences on AFK/Leavers. So you are incentivized to playout >40 minute game or else you'll get punished. The game heavily revolves around counters. Heroes picks specifically to counter a hero, items that can counter a hero and items that can also counter said items. Making the game heavily requiring teamwork.
Yes there are still flaws on the game like the community is arguably more toxic than League and spending over 40 mins per game with them can still be exhausting. But that hit of dopamine where you win a game that is near unwinnable because of 1 good team fight where everyone on the team clutched it out for the win.
That's unfortunate that you kept getting toxic players in your games, I for one only get like a 2-5 games every 100 games. Maybe you have been put in losers queue, it's not like the loser queue of league (win/lose) but as in a queue for toxic losers and smurfs go and get matched together. It's completely different/separate from behaviour score. This just a heads up for you as you're new to dota. Glhf.
Yeah, I love that in Dota you can’t just surrender, people just don’t know how to use this option. There are games ofc that are unwinnable when enemies have 20k gold lead on 15-20 minute mark, they play as a team, you’re just a saver support and your team lacks any kind of composition but those games are as rare as BiS item drop in ARPG so most of losing games are winnable. And even if you still lost try to appreciate good moments from your last game, analyse your mistakes and enemies’ good plays, play the game and not just roll yourself a victory in roulette
+250lp for tryharding 100 seemingly lost games is not worth it. Your calculation about that is very wrong, playing those 100 games than ffing them will cost you at least 1000 minutes(10 minutes for each not ffing). Which equals at least 25 more games you play if you ff them(40 min for each game which is obviously more than it is in reality nowadays). And lets say you are averaging %55 winrate. Which equals to 13.75 wins and 6.25 loses. And i am assuming that you got +26 -24(pretty normal lp gain, yes some of you gettin -30 +20 but in this season majority of the players gets this kind of lp) in total you would lose 150lp and gain 357,5lp which comes to the total of +207,5 lp. FF being not an option is obviously a terrible idea if you think about it.
Also a wrong assumpiton you make in the video is that no one knows anything about the game. I guarentee you that if we show 10 people 10 games from their elo at minute 15, at least 5 people would guess at least 5 game's outcome correctly. Yes very majority of the playerbase would make their guesses less than %60 accuracy but that doesnt mean that they shouldnt ff at 15 when literally %80 of the team wants to get out.
If you are a gold player in a full gold lobby you can solocarry the game because you know the basics of the game at that point and of your enemy throws and you happen to be playing a mid/late game hypercarry champion you might win 3-4 of 100 seemingly lost games. But an iron player in iron lobby would never ever solocarry a game in his elo. Iron players doesnt even know what 3\4 of all champions does, doesnt even know more than half of the items, doesnt know rotates or any macro, do not farm, do not get objektives etc. You would say that "but their enemy are the same elo, they dont know those things either" you would be correct but when in an extremely low elo game (silver and below) if you happen to get ahead you do not need these knowledge as much as the losing team needs. You just brute force fights for 30 minutes straight and when enemy has a 22 3 7 kda 6 items at 17 minutes draven, you cant win that game and its absolutely normal.
But the point he says "being able to ff makes people do not try their best" is absolutely true. FF system surely needs improvement but shouldnt be completely removed.
Since i am not the 'youtuber' or 'streamer' my opinions will matter very less against his but if you reading my comment i strongly suggest you to think about the numbers he throw out which are extremely wrong. Especially that "lets say you can win 5 of those 'unwinnable' matches you would get +250lp" part is so wrong. And all of the arguments assume that vast majority of players cant say a game is absolutely lost. Which is not very true as i explained. Being able to 'win' a game and being able to 'tell if you can win a game or not' is very different from each other. Yes players like Nemessis, or you are absolutely way, way more better than %95 of people but i dont think that anyone cant say if they can win or not. Please think before blindly agreeing someone. Especially in shorts, what he says are very manipulative because of short time caused lack of details in that format. He seems rational via agreeing with other side of the argument on non important or very obvious parts but in reality this video manipulates the thought process of viewers at '+250lp' part. "If you want to climb, mathematically speaking it is in your best interest to play everthing out." is completely false as i explained above and this is the main argument of non ff side. Yes, it is in your best interest to play everthing out when it comes to learning the game, improving yourself etc. But its definitely not in your best interest to play every single game as far as it goes in LP vise. People spamming ff is a huge issue but the solution is not just removing the ability to ff. The game has many more balancing and rewarding issues when it comes to ranked and most of ff spamming problem is caused by other problems like these two problems.
If anyone wonders who am i to talk i have grandmaster 360lp peak at Turkey server. Yes, Turkey server is worse than EU, NA or KR but i get 100+ ms at EUW so i cannot play other regions. I am obviously not KR challenger like Azzapp but i dont think my opinions on this topic is worthless.
Also i wanna thank Azzapp for the video too because even though i strongly disagree with him most of the times but he surely brings up important topics for us to discuss.
I hope this helps you see other side than video creator. I may made mistakes on my statements too, i would be happy if you were to correct them.
Coming off Dota/Dota 2, i feel like surrender being an option is already a set down, people want to FF after 1 death, now it might be that some matchups are already hard and that 1 kill sets it off the edge but this surrender mentality is terrible and i hope the players that love it they don't do it IRL.
Also, GIVE VOICE CHAT, we spent billions of years of evolution to learn how to communicate without gestures and i come to this game and the only option i got is spam pings.
Love the Gragas gangnam style cameo
We knew you would 😘