Hi, your analysis continues to be one of the best I've yet seen on uTube. Well done, I've just ticked up your video again. I'll attempt to give you & your other commentators some of my facts 'n' figures to add to the pool of knowledge here. I’ve also updated figures as of today from those I published a year ago or so. Firstly I don't have an electric car or Eddie, all my power is totally electric, no gas or oil, so that simplifies things a tad. My system installed Oct.'11, 4-kwp basic, then 1-kwp extra new panels, then 0.75-kwp extra used panels from Ebay. Bought loads of stuff to try to use the free lecky effectively from power halvers, to 110v builder’s transformers, to PED switches. The most effective was an Immersun unit new, I then I added another used one as a slave several years later. Wired both in myself. From 2011 this has been a really sharp learning curve for me. Grand total cost for everything £12,841. Yep I know, but from 2011 PV systems were considerably more expensive, but the FIT rate was considerably more generous back then to incentivise people to invest. I have all my outputs, costs & income on a fairly complicated spreadsheet, but I'll give you a synopsis to date. Total output as of today 54,467 kwhs. Average annual output now, approx. 5,000 kwhs pa. Lower in 2011 as I had fewer PV panels mounted back then & a bit more for the last few years, as everything's mounted & flying. Total income to date: £27,558 (FIT & export incomes). Payback was in 4.95 years (deci-years - lol). This payback was using the governments estimated 50% self consumption figures & my calculated cost savings. I have a current XIRR (rate of return) of 15.7% for the cash income to date. An XIRR of 19.1% if the government's self-consumption figures are included. My original budget with a detailed cash-flow forecast was for an XIRR of 21.6% over the 25-years of FIT, however as I added additional panels I am currently 14.8% ahead of that & rising every year. Over the 25-years of FIT I project that total income will be £78,040 (budget) & therefore net income should be £66,295 (budget). It's impossible to give you the detail, which is very considerable (I'm an ex-cost analyst). The cash-flow budget accounted for degradation of the panels, RPI projections for inflation of the FIT rate increases & the unit price of electricity that I pay, over 25-years. So as of today, my system is paid for & I'm already £14,717 in profit. Because I choose to lead a somewhat ‘alternative lifestyle’, my annual energy consumption is truly miniscule relative to that of most of my neighbours & is therefore not representative of normal averages. However my imported electricity from the grid is less than 100-kwhs pa these days. My supplier is currently Utilita on their zero standing charge / economy 7 tariff. So even with the current very high charge rates per kwh, the annual bills are averaging less than £30 pa. (Yes, that’s true & I do appreciate the current average energy bills are around £1,941 pa. It pays to live an alternative / green-nutter lifestyle. Maybe an electric car soon & a Zappi??? Regards from JohnnyK in (currently sunny) Colchester.
Thank you so much for the compliment and your detailed message. And to think less aware people challenge my numbers or moan about whether I've included maintenance costs etc. It really is completely different when you've got solar and a battery. The way you view energy and its consumption changes and you become Greener without that having been your plan. The cost savings as you've shown can be significant and even if its a financial return you're after SOLAR makes sense. I really do see property prices adjusting for those that have solar potential or have solar already. The savings per month make properties much more affordable with solar £78,040 OVER 25 YEARS!
I’m thinking of going solar , my smalL bungalow is using 6000 units part yr. considering heating and water is by gas , I’m not sure where the costs are as lights are led. All installers and figures are a nightmare. Who installed yours in colchester as we are just up the road
Hi Nigel Just found your channel and loved this detailed analysis. I am from the UK (Surrey) but moved to Queensland, Australia 7 years ago. In 2019 we decided to ‘raid’ our pension fund and install 11.2kw of panels (north and east facing) with a 10kw Fronius inverter. We also bought an EV later that year and in 2020 added a Powerwall2 battery and changed our old gas boiler (supplied by 45kg LPG cylinders because there is no piped gas here) for an electric heat pump. All told we spent $100,000 (most of which was the EV). Our savings (rounded) are nearly $900pa on gas, $3000pa on petrol, and $4000pa on electricity however all of these are steeply rising so savings will increase. Whilst our motivation was the environment I have realised that a near 8% return (and growing) on that investment is worthwhile. I don’t know if it adds much value to the property but the EV is still an asset (albeit a depreciating one).
We installed a 5kW solar array and 11.6 kWh battery in January this year. Our electricity bill has now shrunk to a trivial amount. We needed to find a solution to our very high gas bill and initially used fan heaters to soak up the excess solar energy. These have similar performance to your storage heaters and were not a satisfactory solution. A few weeks ago we installed a 3.5kW air-to-air heat pump aircond split with a single indoor unit in the living room. The installation was very simple and low cost when compared to air-to-water. Its performance so far has been spectacular. The split only requires about 300W to keep our 32m^2 living room at around 20C. Open the double doors of the room to the entrance hall and the split warms most of the ground floor of the house although the energy requirement goes up to around a kW. Gas has only been used through this very cold (in the Lake District) April to heat water for showers.
Hi Graham do you have a water tank? if so have you looked at installing an electric pv diverter for immersion to take care of the hot water to some extent? am looking at that right now.
@@willgoldstone An immersion heater (or one of the new heat pump tanks which are popular in the USA) will probably be our next phase of development. Ultimately I would like to get rid of gas, its standing charges and the central heating system but I want to see how our current system performs through the coming winter before making a decision.
@D2M5 The house was built in the mid 70s. It's a bungalow which has had half of the roof space converted to bedrooms and a bathroom. Walls are cavity insulated and there appears to be a fair amount of insulation in the roof space. Central heating is by a 30kW Worster Bosch boiler which is not too effective and is very expensive to run at the new gas prices, hence our switch to targeted heating rather than heating the whole house.
@@andrewcasey7078 24th Jan - 28th April 2022 our electricity bill was £48.48. That includes three month's standing charges at about £7.50 per month. Most of the electricity was used to charge our ID3 through the end of January and February. The car has run exclusively on solar since 2nd March. Last year for the same period the bill was £137.5 approx. The electricity bill for May and June was £1.50 (excl standing charge). About 80p of that is to supply the inverter as it needs a mains supply of a continuous 50W approx. The rest covers momentary glitches when current is drawn from the mains when high current items such as the Zappi are activated.
I had the panels fitted 10 years ago. They paid for themselves a couple of years ago. Last quarter I received over £700, the quarter before that I received over £500. That’s what you get for signing up early.
Interesting to see the cost of the install in the UK and how much electricity is produced. I current live in the Philippines and had a 7.2 kw installed last year (grid tie) for PHP303,000 around UKP4700.. so about 1/2 the cost of the install in the UK (if at 7.2) ! We get around 12 hours of daylight every day all year round. Last year generating 9800kw. Cost of elect is high here at php10.6 or ukp 16.5p so by a rough estimate payback will be under 3 years. The big saving over your install was the install cost at 1/2 the price. Anyway agree its the savings moving forward that is the main benefit. It still make sense to install there for the future savings. thanks for the video and details
Great video and well presented. I've got an EV for the past 5 years and like you saved thousands on fuel cost along with little or no service costs. I've being telling people to get PV and battery combination for some time now as it is clear that energy costs are only going in one direction. With your own generation and storage you are energy independent and I believe in time all houses will go down this route. Will be interesting to see your next update with the battery figures. You should also include figures for fuel savings to inform those who may not already know and may be thinking about buying an EV.
Had solar panels installed over 10 years ago. It predicted 7 years 6 months to break even. It was spot on. Now 10 years later I’m £8000 in profit. It did get in at the beginning with a higher FIT tariff
We have had our 4kW array/3.86kW inverter system for 7 years, predicted payback was just under 7 years but in reality it was less than 5. In March we added a Powerwall 2 and in purely electricity cost the payback for this is much longer however we also added an Electric Mini and our bills are now lower than before we added both so effectively the fuel cost for the car is zero saving £1,000 per year in addition to the £300 in electricity.
Totally agree with the sentiment on peace of mind over potential for electricity price rises. I'm coming up to retirement and want to control my outgoings so I've got my install date for my solar panels which is pencilled in as mid June with a 5.2kwh givenergy battery.
I have done the same. Although I have a Tesla power wall. This has allowed me to trade electricity, so I’m making savings regardless of putting electricity back on the grid. I looked at the investment from the point of view of purchasing an annuity, and this is a much better deal.
I’d actually disagree on it not being a good investment. If you’re paying back in 8 years then that’s a 12.5% return, which is a REALLY good return. It would make sense on that basis alone. Thanks for the helpful video.
And what people tend to forget- these systems will last longer than 6 to 8 years, the typical B-E point. Conservatively, there's another 10 to 15 years of free electricity, with the only likely main expense of an inverter replacement. Even if the home is sold, the home's value has increased.
@@risingdough8078 Currently having solar panels installed or not makes no difference to a house price, it only potentially makes the property more desirable amongst the buyer pool.
@@iamthestog Well, I could see a bad solar installation or installation at the end of its useful life not helping, or even hurting buyer perception of a home, but anything that "potentially makes the house more desirable amongst the buyer pool" is the very definition of increasing a home's value. There is a way to approximate an upper limit in this value. It's simply the present value of the projected money saved over the life of the system. If you had two identical houses, except one with solar panels that will save 30K over the next 10 years, and one that lacks solar panels, which will command a higher price? Yes, some buyers will not care about it, or believe, say, poor aesthetics outweigh the savings, but there are others who will value the savings.
@@risingdough8078 I've heard *very* mixed messages about how much, if any, value you recover from selling a house with solar panels attached. I'm currently looking at a new house. I will be hooking solar panels up first chance I get. I haven't bothered on the current house precisely because the added value argument is just so shakey.
I have solarpanels on my shed so I don't export to the grid, what I have done is put solar on a separate consumer unit and have a battery bank, my lights, fridge, freezer, TV, broadband etc are on pv. Only the microwave, washer, bedrooms and pc are on grid. I spend about 80p a day in electricity. I have an old 12v 100w panel and I am making my own air heater that moves about 5liters of air per second to top up the heating so the boiler doesn't come on as much.. I am also looking at heating up sand with the same air heater and using sand as a battery, currently only got the sand to about 210°c at the moment
I've just recently got 8 x 400w panels on so far. I've also got an attic and I can have 8 more once I reinforce my flat roof My current set up is this : 8 x 400w panels at 22% efficiency 6.5Kw inverter 1 x 3.3Kw battery Once I get my flat roof reinforced, I'll get 8 x 400w batteries 4 x 3.3 KwH battery I intend to have : A 6.4KwH system with around 15KwH of battery power. My final system won't be a new array as such given I've already oversized my inverter. I could theoretically put 2-3 panels on my garage too BUT I want to build upwards first, and then do that. Even then I might not even need the extra 2-3 panels if I intend on making my house more PassivHaus compliant I also intend on getting an MVHR, and trying to get my house as air tight as possible. My end goal is to completely ditch gas. I still however have a petrol car but I do barely use it, so when petrol costs went up to nearly £2, I wasn't that fussed For that reason, I won't be switching to an EV any time soon Today, I generated 4.3KwH on a west facing roof, and I managed to have most of that energy go directly into my battery with some onto the load in the house. Even in winter, that's freaking amazing. I think I've only pulled around 2KwH from the grid too. I'm quite happy with that. I'm using around 11KwH on average / day
Well here’s my Solar history. FIT equals £700 per year on average. If electrical items are used ( washing machine etc) then meter doesn’t run, free electric Cost was £6k to install. South West facing. Installed in 2013 15 panels. In addition being over 65 we receive £200 winter fuel allowance. Utility bill equals £1500 pa I’m happy with them.
Hi Nigel, great video. I was always curious to see how solar would perform in that part of the world. My father in law in Dublin is talking about getting solar installed. I thought it was crazy but maybe not. I’m in Adelaide and it’s a no brainer here. I’ve a 6.4kw system. It’s heavily subsidised here. $3500 for new 6.5kw system fully installed now. 18 month payback. Mine generates 11mhw a year. Thinking about a battery but the payback is nearly the life of the battery. It works for me to just be smart about about how I use power. Just use washing machine, dishwasher etc set to delay. Only run during the day using my own power. Same with the air con for heating and cooling. The unit price from the grid is 5 times more that I get back from the feed in Tarif so try and use as much as I can from what the panels generate. It’s so popular here now, 60% of homes have solar that off peak rates are now during the afternoon and peak rates for power apply at night. But still the best investment I’ve ever made. I’ve had solar systems for over 15 years now. My original 1kw system is on an off grid system on a shack in the country and is still working perfectly after 15 years and still generating 1040 watts. So even the longer payback it takes in Europe, you’ll still get 20 years of free power. No brainer there too!
We have 3.5 kW solar pv on our roof. 6 panels are east facing and 6 are west facing with 2 panels facing south. They were fitted in 2012 and have paid for all our daytime juice usage since then. We use some power to help provide our hot water in summertime together with a couple of homemade solar hot water panels which work well and at current costs save us over £300 per year in water heating via a simple passive system to an additional hot tank in the loft. Together with the use of free power for washing and dishwashing with a Fit rate of around 24p per kwh at current prices we benefit by over £1000 a year on a total outlay of about £10,000 in 2012. I know the FIT stops in 2037 but we are already on the cusp of paying off all the installation costs so we will benefit even more over the next few years and if prices continue to go up we will benefit from the increase in savings from our own generation. All in all I think it has been a worthwhile exercise as it helps to make up for the poor interest rate over the last 10 years.
Sounds like you're quids in and happy too. Nice to hear from an early adopter with a good experience.. Presuming your inverter hasn't failed, you haven't needed to re-roof the house and PV maintenance hasn't been huge like some of the doubters think. Im happy with just a few hundred from the FIT so can imagine the joy at receiving those payments
For where you live, a 6-7 year return isn't bad. in some USA southern states, we are down to 3-4 years. One other thing you didn't mention and that is the warranty on your panels. I am guessing it is 20 years (standard minimum in the USA), which means once you hit that 7 year point, you are guaranteed to have 13 years of profit.
@oluwoleodetola1626 depends on how it's used , phone battery doesn't last as long as an electric toothbrush for example . Home batteries have much better management systems so will last much longer as they're better managed . In theory their ability to hold charge is beyond the limits of the use of the device .
seems like a no brainer if you own a hose and have a spare few grand kicking about. in alot of ways considerably better than other investments as its pretty much guaranteed to keep paying unless something very unusual happens.
Hi Nigel, very informative update. One thing you could add is the savings you are making can be invested to deliver returns 😉. I look forward to your next video. Cheers Ian
When looking at having a PV & battery solution fitted I used some of your figures on generation to work out some rough figures, my house is, obviously, different to yours, I'm in Derbyshire and my house is East/West facing (115/285 degrees). I plumped for a 8.5kWh array split between the 2 sides of the roof, it should have been 12 panels on each side but due to a scaffolding mix up it's only 10 on the back roof. I currently have 3x US300C's with another 3 on order. I've had this installed now for a month and a half and already I'm seeing massive savings. Our average daily usage is around 18/19kWh, with the array and the batteries I've spent less than £45 INCLUDING standing charges for that whole period. Had I been signed up to a SEG tariff I would have made £17.17 of that back in the last 23 days alone as I've exported 229kWh. In the first month alone I saved over £90 and I had some configuration issues during that time, my current install with just the 3 batteries cost me £13300, the extra 3 batteries another £3500 but I estimate that I'll be looking for it to pay for itself in about 9 years as a maximum. My switch to Octopus happens this coming week, I'm looking forwards to the Go tariff and their SEG, as a thankyou I used your referral code when I signed up.
That's lovely to hear that your enjoying the benefits already and thank you fir the referral use. Really is a lovely feeling knowing people do this as a thank you 👍
To show the numbers of an actual installation is really helpful for those still considering a PV installation. Of course, FIT payments made up almost half the savings side of the equation for the initial array but are not available for a new installation or, it seems, for your upgrades. Similarly, analysis of the total PV array also includes those FIT payments earned on the initial part so is not something others starting now could achieve.
Exactly which is why it's all broken diwn so people can see the savings. Remember my savings are against a tariff of 4.5p. Getting in the right tariff is key. My savings will double at least next year
Good deal I've done the same thing which is add solar panels to my existing array. I also have a battery backup which will be installed with the new panels.
Hello Ev puzzle,I think your video's are fantastic as I'm getting 16x320w solar panels fitted this week coming and a Givenergy hybrid inverter and 8.2 battery also an MG5 61kw is also been ordered on the 31st Jan but will not get it till late summer.But most of this is because of your UA-cam channel and the great work you are doing showing us all your ideas and reviews. It's great keep up the good work.
The solar array is getting fitted this week but the battery as I'm sure you are aware is on back order ,but I know I will get it but I'm really excited to be going solar really because of all you videos. Can't thank you enough for all the information you have shown me on your channel. Brilliant.
It is a brilliant hobby of kinds for so many people. The data, the savings, the being good, it's genuinely a good experience if you can avoid being excessive about avoiding grid use
Always good to see your video updates.my 4kw was installed a couple of weeks ago. Waiting for an export MPAN but have noticed with my solar I boost water heater my gas usage is zero at this time of year. Washing machine only goes on during sunshine now too.. my panels are south west facing with one partially shaded and a Tigo optimiser
Hi Nigel Another succinct video. We concur that adding Pv etc shouldn’t be seen as an investment but a lifestyle choice ie environmental saving, an opportunity to take some control of your energy use and incidentally also save some current and future energy costs. Our original 3 kw array cost 8.5k but because of the FIT payments paid for itself in just over 5 years, which in turn 5 years later paid for the extra 1.3 array and Powerwall. Our lifestyle choice made in 2012 has led us to minimal mains draw and a full electric car and full completion of our original aims. Had we left the money in the bank the interest earns wouldn’t have amounted to the cost of the energy savings we now get. Yes we get the FIT payments but if we were to move house we would do exactly the same again albeit we would look for a home with a three phase supply so we could maximise the array.
Hi Lynn Your comments are great as always. The wealth of info shared really helps other people when they're looking at solar . I'm the same if I moved I'd do it all again or even take it with me
Great video as usual, I installed solar PV with an immersun 8 years ago . Consequently I get a good FIT payment that more or less negated my electricity bill and seriously reduced my gas consumption. Recently the rises in prices makes it even better as effectively I am saving 2.5 times as much. You do need discipline in regards to timing appliance usage etc . Payoff was very fast as my aspect is ideal. Friends thought I was wasting my money. Now I just smile and nod. Keep up the good work.
@@Dadniel1stWith a high rate FIT and diverter for water heating. My electricity bill was negated and gas bill reduced by 2/3 . I face due south so optimised, High levels of insulation contribute further savings. Would I do the same without the higher FIT payments, not so sure .My neighbour has recently had solar installed and is fairing much less well. I have generated 15% more than was estimated by installation company. With the increase in the cost of electricity you are effectively saving 2.5 times as much currently. I hope that this clarification helps you.
I'm a financial adviser and can say that your 7yr 11month payback period is a good financial return. That equates to roughly an 8% annual return and has the added benefit of not being exposed to market declines. Most importantly, the reason people invest is to make life better at a future point. You're obviously getting immediate intellectual benefit from analysing your data, emotional benefit of reducing emissions, and financial benefit by saving money along the way and into the future. Keep up the good work
Thank you so much for that analysis. There are a lot of doubters not understanding what they're getting so it's good to hear from a professional we're on a good track.
I certainly wouldn’t complain about that return/payback. Remember the FIT payments are index linked. I’m on about 56p kWh at the moment on the 2011 array. The EV’s are also a great energy dump. My export rate is way less than the 50% assumed.
You are still ahead of the curve and an inspiration. Great video mate, appreciate the effort you put into it. It's only a matter of time before we start getting taxed for the amount of sunlight we absorb, until then, make the best of it :)
As the country's energy system are run by PLC companies trying to make profit we'll never have an abundance of cheap green energy , it'll always be just enough to keep profits high and hence having your own supply is key imo, they can try to tax me but it's not monitored in any way. Smart meters measure what goes out and in but not what we generate and use
Exactly thats not me preaching it's wonderful. I'll give you my thoughts and feelings plus the data and you can decide. It works for me though, couldn't be happier
Sounds an amazing investment. Interesting to actually get an idea of cost. NOBODY wants to tell you that unless the are convinced you are going to sign on the dotted line. Recently ordered my first EV. Kia EV6, Just got to wait the 10 or so months for delivery :-/
I sort of thought of going solar once, but always thought panels would increase in efficiency so much that I held off. When our kerosene boiler failed though, I did fit an electric fireplace and an instant hot tap in the kitchen. We get along fine without the boiler.
As an example whe I bought my solar in 2019 panels were 18.5% efficient, in 2020 /2021 for the same price they improved to 19 maybe 19.5%. 23% is achievable but an twice the cost or more for the latest tech. The reality is progress is slow and marginal. In my opinion dive in while you can as 1 or 2% just isn't noticable and of course that's efficiency per sqm, depending on how many panels you can install, an older different size might actually allow more panels and give you better overall generation.
Interesting Nigel, thank you. We had a 4kW array fitted Dec 2011. The panels had to be split into two arrays pointing SE and SW. New inverter required after 10 years (Apr '21) but the FIT payment started at 43.3p and is now 66.00p per kWh so roughly £1950 per year. Despite the current energy crisis we are still at £65 pm direct debit so the system is really helping.
With the price of electricity in the UK at the moment, there'd be big savings now. The higher the price of electricity, the more you save in offsets. This is the case for Australia. However, we are much better set up for solar. From my 6.6kw panels and 5kw inverter, I'm getting 359kwh in my worst month and 1.06mwh in my best month. Moreover, my system only cost $3.5 thousand AUD.
Good video as always. I have to agree on the financial investment side, putting solar in is more about having energy independence. As the weather fairs up we are seeing days where we import less than 1kwh of electricity and use over 30kwg !. One of the calculation that is hard is work out is that most solar savings are money that you do not pay out. You made the investment and then you do not pay out to power the house/make that car journey /do the washing/heat that hot water. The question should be how much would it cost to earn the money should you have had to pay for the usage you have just had. If you include that in calculations, and I believe it is fair in many respects, the return on investment figure looks even better .
If you haven't added. The third bank of panels, consider amorphous panels. They generate power from dawn till dusk I cloudy and Rainey days. A good compliment to your present array
It's nice to be able to see the point where a decision you made has proven itself to be the right choice in it's own rite. While money can easily be measured, how can you possibly compare that to the independence you have gained? I live within range of hurricanes and have lost grid power too many times. We're surrounded by trees that sometimes take out power lines as they fall. The worst was only 3 days in the dark, but having panels and 100Ah of lead for my workshop kept the lights on and a generator kept the fridge and AC going (I do not like "roughing it"). During that time we never lost wifi and we kept phones as well as laptops charged. If we do see a global depression you'll be very happy for every watt you can make. I'm thinking of adding a wind turbine and I've invested in battery-operated tools. I can make electricity a lot easier than I can make gasoline. Maybe my next project will be distilling fuel!
Let's hope it doesn't get to black out stages and thankfully Norfolk UK doesn't have many cuts and when we do they're resolved within the hour. You just never know what's coming though
Don't worry... with the prices going on the rise, you're going to reach the return point of your investment in 2 years max! Well done for the share, thanks and take care!
Hi, I do like your review and straight forward style so thanks. Like you, I do not see installation of PV as totally a money making venture more as you say and investment in our life. I am due to have a solar installation in January 2023 as our house is being altered at that time. The system will be 15 panels giving 6KWH peak and will have a 12 KWH storage battery. The supplier seems reluctant to say which battery, Inverter combination but from the quote I see it to be a 2 string inverter with all 15 panels on the eastern face of my east/west roof. Estimates are around 4000KWH year output. My question if you can help - Is there a community of people like me, about to or have, invested a good few thousand pounds on a complete system who seek and give information/advice about lots of issues such as statistical feedback from the system, its controllability. I dont want to spend all this money just to feed the grid for a few pounds a month back. etc.. etc.. So I am looking for advice and feedback from others further down this road. Do you know of any such group and where the best place to go?
Hi Nigel. Absolutely agree with you when you say that it's not all about the finance. It's about the whole experience plus your contribution to the planet. Keep it up.
@@EVPuzzle There are too many solar advice articles focusing on how long solar takes to pay for itself when the real benefit is instant financial saving along with the green benefit. I think this puts many people off going solar. Good to see your figures, it shows how much sense it does make to go for it! The problem is once bitten its all about...hmm can I get another 2 panels on there or maybe add another battery! Yearly pay off be damned!!!
I've posted this as so many people have asked for the update from the original video I did 2 years ago. Personally, I'm not so fussed about payback back its what people are asking for
If you put some panels on the east side of your home and stagger them SE you catch the best rays for output during the morning. Red shift effect. I build industrial solar farms from 5-180 MW
Hi Nigel. Good to see someone from the UK reporting their findings. It's true what you say about the financial investment. The only good time was back in 2011/12. I did make the jump with a 2.2kW system which cost more to put in than your first set up. But FIT was good and payed off in 6 years. The savings and FIT payments has helped me to pay for a local engineering company to make me a carport that I have mounted 6 X 400W panels as the roofing. So my solar carport can generate up to 2kW extra and keep the weather of my vehicle. And when I can afford an electric vehicle, I will have a car charger fitted to it in the future to plug the Cyber truck in to! lol
Do you think they will sell the cybertruck in the UK? I'm in two minds whether or not to put down the £100 deposit. My dream to have a car that doesn't have paint, that is stainless steel and built like a tank.
Interesting update thanks Nigel. One thing I noticed is that your second array which is less than half the size of the first is generating roughly 50% more energy, and in the poor December 2021 month actually generated 100% more electricity. Solar panels getting more efficient at squeezing power out of the sun even with cloudy conditions? I don’t have the calculations to anything like the same detail as you but figure that my 4KW installation with FIT will pay itself back in about 10 years just on the FIT payments. The savings harder to quantify, averaging about a Mw a year, but how to work out what I consumed vs exported? I’ve recently swapped our oil boiler for an Air Source Heat Pump and am thinking I now definitely need storage batteries to capture the generated electricity and use it at night because currently other than when it fires up to heat the hot water, all of my heating is grid energy. Be interested to see an expanded version of this video including the payback and impact of your storage batteries, especially as you are heating with electricity overnight
My 2nd array is 61% of my first but produces roughly 56% of the first array, so a little down. Solaredge seems to work better with lots more panels so we get a little less generation per kw of solar panels. Very happy with the extra kilowatts
Very interesting and well laid out. Good food for thought as we are reflecting on how to electrify the home more, away from gas. Going EV is the first, easy step; heating feels more challenging.
Heating is relatively straight forward with a modern boiler - most boilers for that matter have an immersion system (similar to a kettle) which uses electricity rather than gas to heat the water - so you can create a system that feeds from a storage battery to power the immersion and heat your water and home!
Interesting video, I’ve ordered my solar pv 7.2kwp, 18 390w panels, only 2 panels with optimisers, not required for others, should be fitted end of June, hopefully and Tesla powerwall probably December, will be interesting how much they produce, only time will tell. This must be best option for future price increases.
A really informative video. I’m trying to think of a way to encourage my landlord to fit solar to our house. I think being able to show him how quickly he would break even on his outlay would help. I’ve paid for a charge point to be fitted as we switched late last year. I think in the long term it’s all ab investment for him and cost saving for us. Thanks for sharing your experience 👍🏾
But the average landlord will not be making any savings because *the tenant* is paying the electricity bill, not the landlord. So it makes absolutely no financial sense whatsoever for a landlord to install PV - unless they also live on the property and so pay the utility bills.
@@davemould4638 except with lower running bills the rented property will be more popular and can charge a higher rent, plus it'd be a responsible thing to do
@@EVPuzzle I'm not sure that a landlord could recoup the capital outlay from the difference in rent, and I think most prospective tenants will be guided by the headline rent rather than doing the sums to see what they might save on power costs. PV panels on the roof tends to lower the value of a house in the UK - or at least that was the case 2 years ago. And of course if you sell your property before the 7 year payback period, you ensure you will never recoup the capital cost. As the cost of living increases, I'm afraid that fewer and fewer people can prioritise "being responsible" over making ends meet.
With the ability to buy electric at 7.5p off peak and store it with batteries it changes the game and sometimes worth considering solar and batteries as 2 independent methods for energy management/consumption. If Agile export tariff becomes easier to obtain then this is here things will change big time!
Given the current circumstances on the energy markets any independence of the system will be the biggest blessing you could have - might I suggest buying lots of batteries and chargers, in 3 months a fully charged AAA will likely cost £100 😂😂
I've got nearly 8kW panels on 2 inverters (a 3.6kW inverter and a 2.3kW solic). My original 4kW array on a SW facing roof is now about 7 years old. With a original 13p FIT tariff and having a SOLIC 200 it probably paid for itself in 5 years. I've since added the Alpha ESS home battery system (3kW inverter and now 11.6kWh storage). I now reckon I'm about 70% off-grid and about 95%+ of my electricity is bought off-peak. That's with a family of 4 and a EV doing about 5000 miles/ year! You inspired me to get the 2nd array and inverter as sadly, like you I couldn't touch my original FIT array.
I had sales reps come to My previous house years ago quoting £8-10k installation charges on a modest 3 bed semi, with just my wife and I as main occupants. Payback seemed ridiculous as feedback tariff starting to decline and they were limited in the %savings they were allowed to quote I have wondered about the reliability and efficiency of PV systems with companies offering 10-20 yr guarantees on products they have only made for a Couple of years. I moved 4 years ago have a very efficient new build house re insulation some houses with different builder had solar offered as part of the build, surely that is what should be happening for all homes as we do not have the capacity within UK now for our electricity, importing via France nuclear power generation and with the push to have us all In EV surely the imbalance is just going to increase. I use 3300 kWh annually in my house, this will rise as there is now 4 of us living in the house, electricity has always been the higher of my two energy bills and potentially I will be in a hybrid or an EV within a few years. If no feed in tariffs now would a system make sense ? How big should I install 4-5000 Kw? I have never seen any PV fitting quote as low as £5K
I'd never buy from door to door.. Too desperate, there's better ways to sell.. Door to door should be illegal. Decent brands will last 20 years +, don't go for the bottom draw cheapest products I do hear more problems from those installing the cheap and cheerful but equally you don't have to shell out twice as much for a reliable system Solar isn't that expensive but as there's more people wanting it than parts available it sound like some are trying to up the prices to take advantage. Prices are going up though. Last year 4-5kw would be £4-5k with a simple install. No Vat now but prices are up. More in affluent areas I'd bet.
Looks like you've got a near perfect setup. When everyone else is wailing as their leccy and gas bills have tripled - you'll be sitting there cool as a cucumber. Only real improvement you could make I think is to move to wall mount Air conditioning units (or Air source heat pumps as is their modern fashion name) as they're SOOOO efficient in Watts used compared to any other electric heater. I recommend and have been using Mitsubishi Heavy Industries for many years.
But heating is the huge unresolved problem in the Solar market. In my house heating makes almost 2/3 of the energy cost. What people do? Change radiators into eletric radiators? Heat pump? What about shower and hot water in taps? I don't velieve the market is addressing these issues?
Here in Holland, you pay 1 euro each kw, my 3000wp kost installed 4200 euro, I have my investment in 18 months back, in Holland 4,5 euro m3 gas, and 1 euro KWH it's crazy.
Your figures are pretty good for the UK I'd suggest. In one of the sunniest spots in the world (Perth Western Australia) my total generation figures were 2020 7.81 Mwh and 2021 7.76 Mwh, that's for a 5kw limited array, but with some tree masking. If I was happy to lose two big trees I might expect 25% or even more on those figures.
@@EVPuzzle Another one in Perth WA here. We're also very lucky here there are big government rebates on solar. You can get a good system for under $5000. Less than £3000. They pay for themselves really quickly here.
Former electricL engineer for DOE here. I worked very hard for two decades to make sure PV is safe when interconnected to the grid, but the economics picture is mostly bleak. You will likely offset some utility energy costs (not power), but without government credits, you won’t beat the utility.
Absolute tosh on all fronts . Why on earth are you watching these videos for if you think like that . All I can add is Mr. Magoo, if you're old enough to remember him
Sorry too busy counting my tax savings and yes I'm a Tory MP, Brexit loving, Labour hating, NHS hater, tax dodger. Have you subscribed yet, it's the way to go 🤣 Btw Thank you for buying petrol so you can help the govenerment pay for my solar panels. Great plan 👍🤣
I have just skipped through this video and so far you sound switched on and interesting enough on the topic. Could you add some very loud thrash metal background sound to future videos though - that would be great, thanks. Subscribed.
Thanks for the videos; really instructive. My only caveat would have been your mention of seeing a financial adviser. Having worked in investment as an analyst for 90% of my career I would take that with a pinch of salt. I'm sure there are some good ones out there but being decent earners we were always getting calls from them and I can honestly say I never met one that knew much. Their exams only came a few years ago and they are nowhere near as searching as accountancy, actuarial, banking, CFA etc. As a keen DIYer, repairer etc I have been considering installing an array and building battery storage but in the UK there is little UA-cam content on this and sourcing components is harder than in the US or Canada which seems a shame. Obviously a DIY route means no grid export but without the FIT and possibly halving the cost of an installation I wonder if thast matters?
I've come to the same conclusion. I'm buying and installing myself, saving the install costs which will outweigh any SEG payments missed by not having an MCS approved installation.
The financial advisor bit was more a gesture towards the numpties that argue about payback calculations and argue its not a good Investment. I'm from 30 yrs in the finance industry and have seen good and bad advisors/companies. Id love to say solar should be in everyone's investment portfolio, it really does make a lot of sense
Good video with sensible caveats. Surprising to me how poor relative economics still are though - an 8 year payback including subsidies that aren’t available anymore and excluding opportunity costs of alternative investments, the no doubt inflated cost of installing panels these days and nothing being set aside for depreciation to replace the panels when they wear out. I’m sure the direction of travel will continue but not for me yet.
Valid points but I think most panels will go beyond the point where you want to change them as the economics enable even better panels to be installed. Then there's the doing is because it's right not just about the payback
FIT isn't available anymore, but they have been replaced by SEG payments where you sell your excess directly to electricity providers like E.On or SSE. It's about 5p/kWh at the moment.
Excellent presentation, however your figures are now out of date with the recent increases, and the projected increase in 2023. Do you have plans for another update in these fast moving times.
FIT unfortunately gone now (30% of your payback?) and its replacement a nominal amount, which makes the case for batteries stronger, since its better to store your own generated electric and then use it later in place of say 40p peak rate, vs get 5p for it. PLus/and store off peak. I got quotes a couple months ago for battery and solar (separately and together) , my payback period for solar and batteries was around 7 to 8 years and batteries only were 5-6 years based on storing cheap rate electric. But in the end I've gone for Octopus Go Faster which means i can move much of my high usage electricity (washing machine, dishwasher, tumble dryer) to after 930pm and so about half my domestic electricity is now at 1/4 peak rate (its 7.5p vs 31p). I'm ignoring my car usage here which is all off peak at 7.5p and also means that solar generation to charge it was competing against 7.5p electricity rather than 30-40p or more peak rate.
Hi Nigel, thanks for the update, very well explained as always. I purchased an electric car a little over a year ago and now considering installing solar panes; your channel is proving very helpful in assessing this idea. My main concern is that while I have a home office here in Suffolk I also have an office in Framlingham and the car is not always at home during the day. Without purchasing a battery system I cannot see how PV cells can help me to use the electricity generated during the day. Our main roof is also facing east-west although I have second roof on a barn but also facing the same direction. I would be interested to know how effective your gable panels are as I am considering using the south face gables of the barn and house.
My east gable is a out 40-50% of prime South facing. Using the energy you generate is key so a small battery and water heater all help to consume the energy. Heaters to heat the house before you arrive back.. Just need to add up all the energy tasks you can perform whilst out. Washing, drying, heating, charging etc
In Australia we have the most efficient low cost Home Solar industry in the Western world. I am shocked by what people are paying in the UK and US for standard run of the mill rooftop solar. In Australia I would expect to pay $ 12k for a 10kw roof system with installation. We have a subsidy so the cost to me would be $ 8k. Convert that $ 12k to pounds and just over 6K and in USD $ 8k yet I see figures 2 x this amount for the same system.
I couldnt peak up overnight what i would use in a day. 60A feed, means make sure Hob 32A or shower 45A not on, infrastructures years away. EV only beneficial for those that dont do many miles. Far cry from max FIT in 2008 still would have taken 19 years to break even then.
Mine was a financial investment. Took 5 years to pay off the original investment. Now make just under £2k tax free for 14 years. Best investment I’ve ever made
if you can get to the point to disconnect from the grid then you can remove the daily standing charge. the fit and a small amount of solar for me means i use 1 unit of electricity from the grid a day in summer 3 to 5 in winter. but the money got from the panels is more than enough to cover the bills for the electricity i need to use. Panels are an investment when you sell you house you can charge more for having them. the panels earn you money as well as save you money. with new tariffs at 26p a unit then each unit of electricity has and will always go higher in the future. spending money on solar will save more than they cost and will last well over 20 years of benefits. But you have to make sure that what to use is good at energy use. led lights. A rated items.
if a person takes out a bank loan for solar/wind and pays monthly what the array will save them monthly, you can get into solar for zero upfront cost and zero ongoing cost. Once the array is paid for you've got significant savings. If you want to look at it as an investment, you just have to fiddle with the numbers until you work out what works for you and your situation the best, but it can actually be an investment opportunity if you're just careful with the numbers. It bests most other low risk investment opportunities, and kicks a savings account in the guts.
@@EVPuzzle Quite so, especially in these times of extreme economic uncertainty - a year from now 1Kwh of electricity might cost 10p, it might cost 50p. Energy independence is probably worth investment, and if I didn't live in a flat with no roof access, I'd be doing what you've done.
In the winter it doesn’t make enough unless you have air conditioning in the summer it goes to waste.If you want to save money instead of using a taxi run behind it, figures can be manipulated.Heat Geek
Very true figures can be twisted to make your case but I'm. Proud to say I'm critical of myself and always present the most accurate or less optimistic version. I'm now down to 2 months of the year where we don't have enough to cover most things but there's still a good reduction
Currently in Scotland a 12 panel 4 kWh install with a 9.5kwh battery is costing £13.4K the government has taken vat off completely but companies have been bumping the price up so you don’t see any reduction in price ….is this really the going price in U.K. October 2022
Interesting. Had our PVs now over 11years (Feb 2011 install) so on the uppermost FITs tarrif. Generated so far 37.3 MW. Have a new PHEV which has a large 24kw battery. So I'm now keeping track of my energy and its thrown up some nice data. The car is sort of a battery storage option and charges at 16amp so linked nicely with the 4kw pv array. Revisited the battery options a few times but cant seem to make that stack up.
Given the comments of some doubters not believing PV will last more than 7 years it's always nice to see an early Installer like yourself still smiling with a system 11 years later. I trust you've not had inverter failures or needed costly maintenance? Going ull BEV will add even more battery storage too so you have options for the future.
@@EVPuzzle The Sunnyboy is still going strong but I understand on borrowed time (hence recent battery considerations). No maintenance and no noticeable degrade. It still hits 24kwh on a good day (currently at 16.8kwh today). Specific annual yeild is consistant within a few percent either way. Only issue was a pidgeon a few years back. Perimeter now meshed off
@@paulmorris4784 Like you I have PVs installed in 2011 with a Sunnyboy single inverter and again still going strong and generated 41.5 MW. As yet I have not gone BEV or hybrid and its hurting @ £105 for 3/4 of a tank diesel. Considering getting battery storage for the house/vehicle at the next vehicle change.
@@stephenhepworth3393 Great efficiency there Stephen. My PVs had to be split on two roof slopes so I have tail off morning and evening. I can still not get the battery storage to work on ROI and my friendly Solar subcontractor suggested an additional array at the rear of the house separate from the FITs one. Fuel prices are painful so happy with the PHEV.
Hi, I don't quite understand this, it looks like your setup makes more that I'm using in a year, that is 3578kwh for 2021. So with good storage battery, if excess goes to hot water tank, and car is charging I'll still be sending power away. I'm thinking about electric car and solar panels, so if you can charge car pretty much for free, in my case I'll be saving another £100 pm on fuel, £1200 a year (7500miles /year, that is not enough for diesel anyway). But even if I'll be charging on normal tariff, it's still better than half price in comparison to diesel. Then by having electric car you saving money on services. It all looks expensive to start with, but spending money on right setup could be not far away from being self sufficient when it comes to electricity and hot water (at least for the summer) am I right? But looks like battery will have to be massive to store all that power. My average usage is about 10kwh/day, the problem is, electricity generated during the winter would probably be enough to keep you going during the summer, and everything generated in the summer will be enough for the winter.
Sounds like you understand your numbers. I had very similar beginnings. Once you move forwards you use more electric so you generate more. Self sufficiency is very possible with solar... Except in winter of course
Peter Gore Seer, So What Is Your Standing Charge, Mine Is Just Over 50 Pence Per Day, 37 Pence Per Kil, Each Energy Company Use Post Code Pricing, I Use £370 Per Year, Be Warn. A little Over £180 Standing Charge Tax, Then There Is The Credit Steel, Over Charge Which Can Run Into Hundreds Of £ Not A Bad Sting. I Have Herd That People Had To Put A Air Cool Fan On Batteris As Thay Can Over Heat, But Thats Up To Home Owners.
Hi, Over the 3 years, 1. How much did you draw from the grid. 2. How much did you export to the grid. 3. What was the total cost if any for the grid usage.
Thanks Nigel, I was pleasantly surprised how much your generation has exceeded the prediction. I need to replace my 22 year old gas boiler so I am reviewing my energy options. I already have a Zappi for my EV. I have been quoted £6006 for 9x 390W JA Solar panels (total 3510W) and a Solis inverter with the option of adding Pylontech US3000C batteries e.g/ 9.9kWh for £5673. This deal is through the Mayor of London's 'Solar Together' scheme. Octopus Energy have surveyed my house for a heat pump and I am waiting for the report. Financially it seems impossible to calculate costs (and possibly savings) because future energy prices are so unpredictable. What I don't understand is the best way (using devices/apps) to control all this. If you would do a video on controls I would really appreciate it.
@@EVPuzzle No simple install. It is supposed to be 15% off normal prices because of the huge group buying deal. Reasons I can think of: London prices generally, inflation, popularity because of high electricity tariffs, supply problems. I have heard that Pylontech batteries are in short supply also.
I just replaced an Aurora for a friend with a Solis which he said was about £500 for a 4kw so i would ask for a breakdown of costs. (Solis came with a pair ofMC4 plugs too)
Thank you for your channel, I really enjoy your approach, please keep it up. I too agree with you justification for installing pv, even if my better half is yet to be convinced! I had pv installed late January this year, 24x385w = 9.24kw JP panels, SolarEdge optimisers plus 8kw inverter, Tesla powerwall2 and gateway. West facing roof plus late afternoon tree shading, so not ideal. My approach to cost saving is somewhat different. I take the actual tariff I would have been paying before installing pv minus what I actually pay on the Octopus Tesla tariff. Am I wrong?
Depends what you consider your option wss. We're comparing the cost of A vs B but everyone is different we might have option C or D. I'd still have octopus Go without solar but in reality I'd probably be on EON if I hadn't started this journey and I wouldn't have known about Octopus. Its hard to know what to compare to be honest. The facts are my energy bills are tiny and have been shrinking year on year for the 4 years I've been doing this
I am planning on doing a Victron inverter with batteries. I already have solar panels and PV inverter installed. Who installed the Victron and battery setup for you? I'm finding that normal electricians are not really interested and it's not enough business for solar installers to just hook up your Victron inverter to the grid for you and do the relevant paperwork. Feedback appreciated as the regulations and paperwork is putting me off doing it myself.
Great informative video - I’d really like to install Solar panal on our self-build but I’m very concerned about the fire risk. This is yet another side of the building industry that doesn’t yet have regulations in the UK on installation. 1 in 10,000 installs resulting in fire related incidents just doesn’t sit easy with me. Could be why nobody will commit to ‘signing-off’ installations as they could be liable if the worse happens?
If fire risk is a key issue for you, look at the huawei inverters. They have panel by panel arc detection to avoid exactly this. It's rare, very rare and involves faulty kit or dodgy installs but it does happen I agree. Individual panel monitoring should help too.
The panels on average last last 25yrs. This would mean you eventually have to replace them. The worst degradation rate is .80% a year, but as a benchmark, you can expect an average degradation rate of .50% a year for any panel. You would need to work this into your savings analysis.
Hi, your analysis continues to be one of the best I've yet seen on uTube. Well done, I've just ticked up your video again.
I'll attempt to give you & your other commentators some of my facts 'n' figures to add to the pool of knowledge here. I’ve also updated figures as of today from those I published a year ago or so.
Firstly I don't have an electric car or Eddie, all my power is totally electric, no gas or oil, so that simplifies things a tad.
My system installed Oct.'11, 4-kwp basic, then 1-kwp extra new panels, then 0.75-kwp extra used panels from Ebay.
Bought loads of stuff to try to use the free lecky effectively from power halvers, to 110v builder’s transformers, to PED switches. The most effective was an Immersun unit new, I then I added another used one as a slave several years later. Wired both in myself. From 2011 this has been a really sharp learning curve for me. Grand total cost for everything £12,841. Yep I know, but from 2011 PV systems were considerably more expensive, but the FIT rate was considerably more generous back then to incentivise people to invest.
I have all my outputs, costs & income on a fairly complicated spreadsheet, but I'll give you a synopsis to date.
Total output as of today 54,467 kwhs. Average annual output now, approx. 5,000 kwhs pa. Lower in 2011 as I had fewer PV panels mounted back then & a bit more for the last few years, as everything's mounted & flying.
Total income to date: £27,558 (FIT & export incomes).
Payback was in 4.95 years (deci-years - lol). This payback was using the governments estimated 50% self consumption figures & my calculated cost savings.
I have a current XIRR (rate of return) of 15.7% for the cash income to date.
An XIRR of 19.1% if the government's self-consumption figures are included.
My original budget with a detailed cash-flow forecast was for an XIRR of 21.6% over the 25-years of FIT, however as I added additional panels I am currently 14.8% ahead of that & rising every year.
Over the 25-years of FIT I project that total income will be £78,040 (budget) & therefore net income should be £66,295 (budget).
It's impossible to give you the detail, which is very considerable (I'm an ex-cost analyst). The cash-flow budget accounted for degradation of the panels, RPI projections for inflation of the FIT rate increases & the unit price of electricity that I pay, over 25-years.
So as of today, my system is paid for & I'm already £14,717 in profit.
Because I choose to lead a somewhat ‘alternative lifestyle’, my annual energy consumption is truly miniscule relative to that of most of my neighbours & is therefore not representative of normal averages. However my imported electricity from the grid is less than 100-kwhs pa these days. My supplier is currently Utilita on their zero standing charge / economy 7 tariff. So even with the current very high charge rates per kwh, the annual bills are averaging less than £30 pa. (Yes, that’s true & I do appreciate the current average energy bills are around £1,941 pa. It pays to live an alternative / green-nutter lifestyle.
Maybe an electric car soon & a Zappi???
Regards from JohnnyK in (currently sunny) Colchester.
Thank you so much for the compliment and your detailed message. And to think less aware people challenge my numbers or moan about whether I've included maintenance costs etc. It really is completely different when you've got solar and a battery. The way you view energy and its consumption changes and you become Greener without that having been your plan.
The cost savings as you've shown can be significant and even if its a financial return you're after SOLAR makes sense.
I really do see property prices adjusting for those that have solar potential or have solar already. The savings per month make properties much more affordable with solar
£78,040 OVER 25 YEARS!
I’m thinking of going solar , my smalL bungalow is using 6000 units part yr. considering heating and water is by gas , I’m not sure where the costs are as lights are led.
All installers and figures are a nightmare. Who installed yours in colchester as we are just up the road
Crikey 6000 in a small bungalow with gas heating. Can only presume you like computers, have kids or cook a lot?
Aquarium, pond pump, EV?
@@EVPuzzle just console n TVs I just can’t work it out
@@EVPuzzle in week I’m at home 100% tv on. Wife 75%
Hi Nigel
Just found your channel and loved this detailed analysis. I am from the UK (Surrey) but moved to Queensland, Australia 7 years ago. In 2019 we decided to ‘raid’ our pension fund and install 11.2kw of panels (north and east facing) with a 10kw Fronius inverter. We also bought an EV later that year and in 2020 added a Powerwall2 battery and changed our old gas boiler (supplied by 45kg LPG cylinders because there is no piped gas here) for an electric heat pump.
All told we spent $100,000 (most of which was the EV). Our savings (rounded) are nearly $900pa on gas, $3000pa on petrol, and $4000pa on electricity however all of these are steeply rising so savings will increase.
Whilst our motivation was the environment I have realised that a near 8% return (and growing) on that investment is worthwhile. I don’t know if it adds much value to the property but the EV is still an asset (albeit a depreciating one).
100k isn't small but those are serious annual savings
We installed a 5kW solar array and 11.6 kWh battery in January this year. Our electricity bill has now shrunk to a trivial amount. We needed to find a solution to our very high gas bill and initially used fan heaters to soak up the excess solar energy. These have similar performance to your storage heaters and were not a satisfactory solution.
A few weeks ago we installed a 3.5kW air-to-air heat pump aircond split with a single indoor unit in the living room. The installation was very simple and low cost when compared to air-to-water. Its performance so far has been spectacular. The split only requires about 300W to keep our 32m^2 living room at around 20C. Open the double doors of the room to the entrance hall and the split warms most of the ground floor of the house although the energy requirement goes up to around a kW. Gas has only been used through this very cold (in the Lake District) April to heat water for showers.
Hi Graham do you have a water tank? if so have you looked at installing an electric pv diverter for immersion to take care of the hot water to some extent? am looking at that right now.
@@willgoldstone An immersion heater (or one of the new heat pump tanks which are popular in the USA) will probably be our next phase of development. Ultimately I would like to get rid of gas, its standing charges and the central heating system but I want to see how our current system performs through the coming winter before making a decision.
@D2M5 The house was built in the mid 70s. It's a bungalow which has had half of the roof space converted to bedrooms and a bathroom. Walls are cavity insulated and there appears to be a fair amount of insulation in the roof space. Central heating is by a 30kW Worster Bosch boiler which is not too effective and is very expensive to run at the new gas prices, hence our switch to targeted heating rather than heating the whole house.
Hi, how much is a trivial amount and roughly how much was it previously please?
@@andrewcasey7078 24th Jan - 28th April 2022 our electricity bill was £48.48. That includes three month's standing charges at about £7.50 per month. Most of the electricity was used to charge our ID3 through the end of January and February. The car has run exclusively on solar since 2nd March.
Last year for the same period the bill was £137.5 approx.
The electricity bill for May and June was £1.50 (excl standing charge). About 80p of that is to supply the inverter as it needs a mains supply of a continuous 50W approx. The rest covers momentary glitches when current is drawn from the mains when high current items such as the Zappi are activated.
I had the panels fitted 10 years ago. They paid for themselves a couple of years ago.
Last quarter I received over £700, the quarter before that I received over £500.
That’s what you get for signing up early.
Interesting to see the cost of the install in the UK and how much electricity is produced. I current live in the Philippines and had a 7.2 kw installed last year (grid tie) for PHP303,000 around UKP4700.. so about 1/2 the cost of the install in the UK (if at 7.2) ! We get around 12 hours of daylight every day all year round. Last year generating 9800kw. Cost of elect is high here at php10.6 or ukp 16.5p so by a rough estimate payback will be under 3 years. The big saving over your install was the install cost at 1/2 the price. Anyway agree its the savings moving forward that is the main benefit. It still make sense to install there for the future savings. thanks for the video and details
Great video and well presented. I've got an EV for the past 5 years and like you saved thousands on fuel cost along with little or no service costs. I've being telling people to get PV and battery combination for some time now as it is clear that energy costs are only going in one direction. With your own generation and storage you are energy independent and I believe in time all houses will go down this route. Will be interesting to see your next update with the battery figures. You should also include figures for fuel savings to inform those who may not already know and may be thinking about buying an EV.
Had solar panels installed over 10 years ago. It predicted 7 years 6 months to break even. It was spot on. Now 10 years later I’m £8000 in profit. It did get in at the beginning with a higher FIT tariff
We have had our 4kW array/3.86kW inverter system for 7 years, predicted payback was just under 7 years but in reality it was less than 5.
In March we added a Powerwall 2 and in purely electricity cost the payback for this is much longer however we also added an Electric Mini and our bills are now lower than before we added both so effectively the fuel cost for the car is zero saving £1,000 per year in addition to the £300 in electricity.
Totally agree with the sentiment on peace of mind over potential for electricity price rises. I'm coming up to retirement and want to control my outgoings so I've got my install date for my solar panels which is pencilled in as mid June with a 5.2kwh givenergy battery.
I have done the same. Although I have a Tesla power wall. This has allowed me to trade electricity, so I’m making savings regardless of putting electricity back on the grid. I looked at the investment from the point of view of purchasing an annuity, and this is a much better deal.
@@KevNpton Great point. We won’t get any decent return on annuities for the foreseeable future. Reducing expense is the key.
8 years for payback is 12.5%, that's honestly a pretty decent return especially is it will increase as your energy costs increase.
I’d actually disagree on it not being a good investment. If you’re paying back in 8 years then that’s a 12.5% return, which is a REALLY good return. It would make sense on that basis alone. Thanks for the helpful video.
And what people tend to forget- these systems will last longer than 6 to 8 years, the typical B-E point. Conservatively, there's another 10 to 15 years of free electricity, with the only likely main expense of an inverter replacement. Even if the home is sold, the home's value has increased.
Actually 9% compounded (rule of 72).
@@risingdough8078 Currently having solar panels installed or not makes no difference to a house price, it only potentially makes the property more desirable amongst the buyer pool.
@@iamthestog Well, I could see a bad solar installation or installation at the end of its useful life not helping, or even hurting buyer perception of a home, but anything that "potentially makes the house more desirable amongst the buyer pool" is the very definition of increasing a home's value.
There is a way to approximate an upper limit in this value. It's simply the present value of the projected money saved over the life of the system. If you had two identical houses, except one with solar panels that will save 30K over the next 10 years, and one that lacks solar panels, which will command a higher price? Yes, some buyers will not care about it, or believe, say, poor aesthetics outweigh the savings, but there are others who will value the savings.
@@risingdough8078 I've heard *very* mixed messages about how much, if any, value you recover from selling a house with solar panels attached.
I'm currently looking at a new house. I will be hooking solar panels up first chance I get. I haven't bothered on the current house precisely because the added value argument is just so shakey.
I would agree that it is a good return. I have been investing since 2003 and I would be extremely grateful for the return you received.
I have solarpanels on my shed so I don't export to the grid, what I have done is put solar on a separate consumer unit and have a battery bank, my lights, fridge, freezer, TV, broadband etc are on pv.
Only the microwave, washer, bedrooms and pc are on grid.
I spend about 80p a day in electricity.
I have an old 12v 100w panel and I am making my own air heater that moves about 5liters of air per second to top up the heating so the boiler doesn't come on as much..
I am also looking at heating up sand with the same air heater and using sand as a battery, currently only got the sand to about 210°c at the moment
210c sand and an off grid shed plus house consumer unit. This sounds very effective and curious
I've just recently got 8 x 400w panels on so far. I've also got an attic and I can have 8 more once I reinforce my flat roof
My current set up is this :
8 x 400w panels at 22% efficiency
6.5Kw inverter
1 x 3.3Kw battery
Once I get my flat roof reinforced, I'll get
8 x 400w batteries
4 x 3.3 KwH battery
I intend to have :
A 6.4KwH system with around 15KwH of battery power. My final system won't be a new array as such given I've already oversized my inverter.
I could theoretically put 2-3 panels on my garage too BUT I want to build upwards first, and then do that. Even then I might not even need the extra 2-3 panels if I intend on making my house more PassivHaus compliant
I also intend on getting an MVHR, and trying to get my house as air tight as possible. My end goal is to completely ditch gas.
I still however have a petrol car but I do barely use it, so when petrol costs went up to nearly £2, I wasn't that fussed
For that reason, I won't be switching to an EV any time soon
Today, I generated 4.3KwH on a west facing roof, and I managed to have most of that energy go directly into my battery with some onto the load in the house. Even in winter, that's freaking amazing. I think I've only pulled around 2KwH from the grid too. I'm quite happy with that. I'm using around 11KwH on average / day
Great video, and the most relevant one I’ve seen as I live in Cambridgshire; similar weather.
Well here’s my Solar history.
FIT equals £700 per year on average. If electrical items are used ( washing machine etc) then meter doesn’t run, free electric
Cost was £6k to install. South West facing. Installed in 2013 15 panels.
In addition being over 65 we receive £200 winter fuel allowance.
Utility bill equals £1500 pa
I’m happy with them.
Good analysis.I am in South Africa and we make a bit more here due to more sunshine.On 5 kw array about 7500kwh per annum.
Hi Nigel, great video. I was always curious to see how solar would perform in that part of the world. My father in law in Dublin is talking about getting solar installed. I thought it was crazy but maybe not. I’m in Adelaide and it’s a no brainer here. I’ve a 6.4kw system. It’s heavily subsidised here. $3500 for new 6.5kw system fully installed now. 18 month payback. Mine generates 11mhw a year. Thinking about a battery but the payback is nearly the life of the battery. It works for me to just be smart about about how I use power. Just use washing machine, dishwasher etc set to delay. Only run during the day using my own power. Same with the air con for heating and cooling. The unit price from the grid is 5 times more that I get back from the feed in Tarif so try and use as much as I can from what the panels generate. It’s so popular here now, 60% of homes have solar that off peak rates are now during the afternoon and peak rates for power apply at night. But still the best investment I’ve ever made. I’ve had solar systems for over 15 years now. My original 1kw system is on an off grid system on a shack in the country and is still working perfectly after 15 years and still generating 1040 watts. So even the longer payback it takes in Europe, you’ll still get 20 years of free power. No brainer there too!
Crikey that's good generation pet kW of pv compared to the UK
We have 3.5 kW solar pv on our roof. 6 panels are east facing and 6 are west facing with 2 panels facing south. They were fitted in 2012 and have paid for all our daytime juice usage since then. We use some power to help provide our hot water in summertime together with a couple of homemade solar hot water panels which work well and at current costs save us over £300 per year in water heating via a simple passive system to an additional hot tank in the loft.
Together with the use of free power for washing and dishwashing with a Fit rate of around 24p per kwh at current prices we benefit by over £1000 a year on a total outlay of about £10,000 in 2012.
I know the FIT stops in 2037 but we are already on the cusp of paying off all the installation costs so we will benefit even more over the next few years and if prices continue to go up we will benefit from the increase in savings from our own generation.
All in all I think it has been a worthwhile exercise as it helps to make up for the poor interest rate over the last 10 years.
Sounds like you're quids in and happy too. Nice to hear from an early adopter with a good experience.. Presuming your inverter hasn't failed, you haven't needed to re-roof the house and PV maintenance hasn't been huge like some of the doubters think.
Im happy with just a few hundred from the FIT so can imagine the joy at receiving those payments
For where you live, a 6-7 year return isn't bad. in some USA southern states, we are down to 3-4 years. One other thing you didn't mention and that is the warranty on your panels. I am guessing it is 20 years (standard minimum in the USA), which means once you hit that 7 year point, you are guaranteed to have 13 years of profit.
What's the average life span of batteries (Lifep04)
@oluwoleodetola1626 depends on how it's used , phone battery doesn't last as long as an electric toothbrush for example . Home batteries have much better management systems so will last much longer as they're better managed . In theory their ability to hold charge is beyond the limits of the use of the device .
@@oluwoleodetola1626 most have 10 year warranties, but there isn't much testing past 10 years because the high quality ones are fairly new.
seems like a no brainer if you own a hose and have a spare few grand kicking about. in alot of ways considerably better than other investments as its pretty much guaranteed to keep paying unless something very unusual happens.
Hi Nigel, very informative update. One thing you could add is the savings you are making can be invested to deliver returns 😉. I look forward to your next video. Cheers Ian
When looking at having a PV & battery solution fitted I used some of your figures on generation to work out some rough figures, my house is, obviously, different to yours, I'm in Derbyshire and my house is East/West facing (115/285 degrees).
I plumped for a 8.5kWh array split between the 2 sides of the roof, it should have been 12 panels on each side but due to a scaffolding mix up it's only 10 on the back roof. I currently have 3x US300C's with another 3 on order.
I've had this installed now for a month and a half and already I'm seeing massive savings. Our average daily usage is around 18/19kWh, with the array and the batteries I've spent less than £45 INCLUDING standing charges for that whole period.
Had I been signed up to a SEG tariff I would have made £17.17 of that back in the last 23 days alone as I've exported 229kWh.
In the first month alone I saved over £90 and I had some configuration issues during that time, my current install with just the 3 batteries cost me £13300, the extra 3 batteries another £3500 but I estimate that I'll be looking for it to pay for itself in about 9 years as a maximum.
My switch to Octopus happens this coming week, I'm looking forwards to the Go tariff and their SEG, as a thankyou I used your referral code when I signed up.
That's lovely to hear that your enjoying the benefits already and thank you fir the referral use. Really is a lovely feeling knowing people do this as a thank you 👍
Sounds like you’re install is not mcs. That’s the case?
How have you found octopus without mcs? Nice one
@@WindyJAMiller It is MCS approved, I've got the DNO approval, etc.
@@leeumney7675 ok, I am a bit confused as you say youre not on the SEG, could you help me understand how thats come about?
To show the numbers of an actual installation is really helpful for those still considering a PV installation. Of course, FIT payments made up almost half the savings side of the equation for the initial array but are not available for a new installation or, it seems, for your upgrades. Similarly, analysis of the total PV array also includes those FIT payments earned on the initial part so is not something others starting now could achieve.
Exactly which is why it's all broken diwn so people can see the savings. Remember my savings are against a tariff of 4.5p. Getting in the right tariff is key. My savings will double at least next year
Good deal I've done the same thing which is add solar panels to my existing array. I also have a battery backup which will be installed with the new panels.
👍👌👏
Hello Ev puzzle,I think your video's are fantastic as I'm getting 16x320w solar panels fitted this week coming and a Givenergy hybrid inverter and 8.2 battery also an MG5 61kw is also been ordered on the 31st Jan but will not get it till late summer.But most of this is because of your UA-cam channel and the great work you are doing showing us all your ideas and reviews. It's great keep up the good work.
You're very kind John, sounds like you're going all in, some good choices there. Think the MG5 is a cracking sounding car, I must get a drive one day
The solar array is getting fitted this week but the battery as I'm sure you are aware is on back order ,but I know I will get it but I'm really excited to be going solar really because of all you videos. Can't thank you enough for all the information you have shown me on your channel. Brilliant.
It is a brilliant hobby of kinds for so many people. The data, the savings, the being good, it's genuinely a good experience if you can avoid being excessive about avoiding grid use
Always good to see your video updates.my 4kw was installed a couple of weeks ago. Waiting for an export MPAN but have noticed with my solar I boost water heater my gas usage is zero at this time of year. Washing machine only goes on during sunshine now too.. my panels are south west facing with one partially shaded and a Tigo optimiser
First time I've seen this - interesting stuff. I need more convincing but am willing to learn! Thanks.
Hi Nigel
Another succinct video. We concur that adding Pv etc shouldn’t be seen as an investment but a lifestyle choice ie environmental saving, an opportunity to take some control of your energy use and incidentally also save some current and future energy costs.
Our original 3 kw array cost 8.5k but because of the FIT payments paid for itself in just over 5 years, which in turn 5 years later paid for the extra 1.3 array and Powerwall.
Our lifestyle choice made in 2012 has led us to minimal mains draw and a full electric car and full completion of our original aims. Had we left the money in the bank the interest earns wouldn’t have amounted to the cost of the energy savings we now get. Yes we get the FIT payments but if we were to move house we would do exactly the same again albeit we would look for a home with a three phase supply so we could maximise the array.
Hi Lynn
Your comments are great as always. The wealth of info shared really helps other people when they're looking at solar .
I'm the same if I moved I'd do it all again or even take it with me
Great video as usual, I installed solar PV with an immersun 8 years ago . Consequently I get a good FIT payment that more or less negated my electricity bill and seriously reduced my gas consumption. Recently the rises in prices makes it even better as effectively I am saving 2.5 times as much. You do need discipline in regards to timing appliance usage etc . Payoff was very fast as my aspect is ideal. Friends thought I was wasting my money. Now I just smile and nod. Keep up the good work.
Stop lying mate. I have pv and will take me 15 years to recover the money invested trough FIT payments.
@@Dadniel1stWith a high rate FIT and diverter for water heating. My electricity bill was negated and gas bill reduced by 2/3 . I face due south so optimised, High levels of insulation contribute further savings.
Would I do the same without the higher FIT payments, not so sure .My neighbour has recently had solar installed and is fairing much less well. I have generated 15% more than was estimated by installation company. With the increase in the cost of electricity you are effectively saving 2.5 times as much currently.
I hope that this clarification helps you.
I'm a financial adviser and can say that your 7yr 11month payback period is a good financial return. That equates to roughly an 8% annual return and has the added benefit of not being exposed to market declines.
Most importantly, the reason people invest is to make life better at a future point. You're obviously getting immediate intellectual benefit from analysing your data, emotional benefit of reducing emissions, and financial benefit by saving money along the way and into the future.
Keep up the good work
Thank you so much for that analysis. There are a lot of doubters not understanding what they're getting so it's good to hear from a professional we're on a good track.
I certainly wouldn’t complain about that return/payback. Remember the FIT payments are index linked. I’m on about 56p kWh at the moment on the 2011 array. The EV’s are also a great energy dump. My export rate is way less than the 50% assumed.
Great video Nigel. thank you. I love the clear breakdown of costs and savings.
You are still ahead of the curve and an inspiration. Great video mate, appreciate the effort you put into it. It's only a matter of time before we start getting taxed for the amount of sunlight we absorb, until then, make the best of it :)
As the country's energy system are run by PLC companies trying to make profit we'll never have an abundance of cheap green energy , it'll always be just enough to keep profits high and hence having your own supply is key imo, they can try to tax me but it's not monitored in any way. Smart meters measure what goes out and in but not what we generate and use
Good video, nice to have some really honest clear figures.
We have installed 8 panels 3650 wp and started producing end of march. Now May 18th I'm at 770kw already. Good investment.
Great time to start with solar, just as the days lengthen. Incredible what just 8 panels can do these days
Thanks for the realistic assessment. Lots of people just want to evangelise but I think you’ve been realistic.
Exactly thats not me preaching it's wonderful. I'll give you my thoughts and feelings plus the data and you can decide. It works for me though, couldn't be happier
Sounds an amazing investment. Interesting to actually get an idea of cost. NOBODY wants to tell you that unless the are convinced you are going to sign on the dotted line. Recently ordered my first EV. Kia EV6, Just got to wait the 10 or so months for delivery :-/
Great overview Nigel 👏👏👏👍👍 Thanks , keep these videos coming 👍 😀
Thanks mate, I think people are slowly understanding our constant smiles
Solar works not only in the south as you show. Greatings from a little bit more south in germany (lower saxony).
Greetings my Saxony friend.
Solar works in the north too, Scotland has some great generation
I sort of thought of going solar once, but always thought panels would increase in efficiency so much that I held off. When our kerosene boiler failed though, I did fit an electric fireplace and an instant hot tap in the kitchen. We get along fine without the boiler.
As an example whe I bought my solar in 2019 panels were 18.5% efficient, in 2020 /2021 for the same price they improved to 19 maybe 19.5%.
23% is achievable but an twice the cost or more for the latest tech. The reality is progress is slow and marginal. In my opinion dive in while you can as 1 or 2% just isn't noticable and of course that's efficiency per sqm, depending on how many panels you can install, an older different size might actually allow more panels and give you better overall generation.
Interesting Nigel, thank you. We had a 4kW array fitted Dec 2011. The panels had to be split into two arrays pointing SE and SW. New inverter required after 10 years (Apr '21) but the FIT payment started at 43.3p and is now 66.00p per kWh so roughly £1950 per year. Despite the current energy crisis we are still at £65 pm direct debit so the system is really helping.
£1950 per month OMG!
Such a wise decision, well done
@@egold33311 Apologies, my mistake I meant per year.
With the price of electricity in the UK at the moment, there'd be big savings now. The higher the price of electricity, the more you save in offsets. This is the case for Australia. However, we are much better set up for solar. From my 6.6kw panels and 5kw inverter, I'm getting 359kwh in my worst month and 1.06mwh in my best month. Moreover, my system only cost $3.5 thousand AUD.
So much better than the UK but I'm not complaining
Good video as always. I have to agree on the financial investment side, putting solar in is more about having energy independence. As the weather fairs up we are seeing days where we import less than 1kwh of electricity and use over 30kwg !. One of the calculation that is hard is work out is that most solar savings are money that you do not pay out. You made the investment and then you do not pay out to power the house/make that car journey /do the washing/heat that hot water. The question should be how much would it cost to earn the money should you have had to pay for the usage you have just had. If you include that in calculations, and I believe it is fair in many respects, the return on investment figure looks even better
.
Exactly. If I had to earn £2000 more then there's tax on that too to pay £2k net. Reducing costs isbetter than earning more to pay your bills.
If you haven't added. The third bank of panels, consider amorphous panels. They generate power from dawn till dusk I cloudy and Rainey days. A good compliment to your present array
Its peace of mind, its comfort as you say when you retire. No power bills. Suggest you look for V2H power supply from your EV
It's nice to be able to see the point where a decision you made has proven itself to be the right choice in it's own rite. While money can easily be measured, how can you possibly compare that to the independence you have gained? I live within range of hurricanes and have lost grid power too many times. We're surrounded by trees that sometimes take out power lines as they fall. The worst was only 3 days in the dark, but having panels and 100Ah of lead for my workshop kept the lights on and a generator kept the fridge and AC going (I do not like "roughing it"). During that time we never lost wifi and we kept phones as well as laptops charged.
If we do see a global depression you'll be very happy for every watt you can make. I'm thinking of adding a wind turbine and I've invested in battery-operated tools. I can make electricity a lot easier than I can make gasoline. Maybe my next project will be distilling fuel!
Let's hope it doesn't get to black out stages and thankfully Norfolk UK doesn't have many cuts and when we do they're resolved within the hour.
You just never know what's coming though
Don't worry... with the prices going on the rise, you're going to reach the return point of your investment in 2 years max!
Well done for the share, thanks and take care!
Always nice to get a comment by someone that understands instead of the daft doubters type Comments.. Solar and batteries for the win👍
Thanks again for the information Nigel just waiting for a quote for my storage battery 🔋 😀
Not long hopefully
Hi, I do like your review and straight forward style so thanks. Like you, I do not see installation of PV as totally a money making venture more as you say and investment in our life. I am due to have a solar installation in January 2023 as our house is being altered at that time. The system will be 15 panels giving 6KWH peak and will have a 12 KWH storage battery. The supplier seems reluctant to say which battery, Inverter combination but from the quote I see it to be a 2 string inverter with all 15 panels on the eastern face of my east/west roof. Estimates are around 4000KWH year output. My question if you can help - Is there a community of people like me, about to or have, invested a good few thousand pounds on a complete system who seek and give information/advice about lots of issues such as statistical feedback from the system, its controllability. I dont want to spend all this money just to feed the grid for a few pounds a month back. etc.. etc.. So I am looking for advice and feedback from others further down this road. Do you know of any such group and where the best place to go?
Hi Nigel. Absolutely agree with you when you say that it's not all about the finance. It's about the whole experience plus your contribution to the planet. Keep it up.
It sure is, the financial gains are a big bonus though which is what confuses so many
@@EVPuzzle There are too many solar advice articles focusing on how long solar takes to pay for itself when the real benefit is instant financial saving along with the green benefit. I think this puts many people off going solar. Good to see your figures, it shows how much sense it does make to go for it! The problem is once bitten its all about...hmm can I get another 2 panels on there or maybe add another battery! Yearly pay off be damned!!!
I've posted this as so many people have asked for the update from the original video I did 2 years ago. Personally, I'm not so fussed about payback back its what people are asking for
always interesting. Thanks for sharing. Have a nice weekend.
If you put some panels on the east side of your home and stagger them SE you catch the best rays for output during the morning. Red shift effect. I build industrial solar farms from 5-180 MW
Hi Nigel. Good to see someone from the UK reporting their findings. It's true what you say about the financial investment. The only good time was back in 2011/12. I did make the jump with a 2.2kW system which cost more to put in than your first set up. But FIT was good and payed off in 6 years. The savings and FIT payments has helped me to pay for a local engineering company to make me a carport that I have mounted 6 X 400W panels as the roofing. So my solar carport can generate up to 2kW extra and keep the weather of my vehicle. And when I can afford an electric vehicle, I will have a car charger fitted to it in the future to plug the Cyber truck in to! lol
Making the right steps there. Wish I'd installed the moment we moved house
Do you think they will sell the cybertruck in the UK? I'm in two minds whether or not to put down the £100 deposit.
My dream to have a car that doesn't have paint, that is stainless steel and built like a tank.
No
Interesting update thanks Nigel. One thing I noticed is that your second array which is less than half the size of the first is generating roughly 50% more energy, and in the poor December 2021 month actually generated 100% more electricity. Solar panels getting more efficient at squeezing power out of the sun even with cloudy conditions?
I don’t have the calculations to anything like the same detail as you but figure that my 4KW installation with FIT will pay itself back in about 10 years just on the FIT payments. The savings harder to quantify, averaging about a Mw a year, but how to work out what I consumed vs exported?
I’ve recently swapped our oil boiler for an Air Source Heat Pump and am thinking I now definitely need storage batteries to capture the generated electricity and use it at night because currently other than when it fires up to heat the hot water, all of my heating is grid energy. Be interested to see an expanded version of this video including the payback and impact of your storage batteries, especially as you are heating with electricity overnight
My 2nd array is 61% of my first but produces roughly 56% of the first array, so a little down. Solaredge seems to work better with lots more panels so we get a little less generation per kw of solar panels. Very happy with the extra kilowatts
Thanks for the video. It's really good
Very interesting and well laid out. Good food for thought as we are reflecting on how to electrify the home more, away from gas. Going EV is the first, easy step; heating feels more challenging.
Heating is relatively straight forward with a modern boiler - most boilers for that matter have an immersion system (similar to a kettle) which uses electricity rather than gas to heat the water - so you can create a system that feeds from a storage battery to power the immersion and heat your water and home!
@@MikeJones-kh2be Thanks for your reply. I am reasonably clear about water heating but less so about room/house heating.
Interesting video, I’ve ordered my solar pv 7.2kwp, 18 390w panels, only 2 panels with optimisers, not required for others, should be fitted end of June, hopefully and Tesla powerwall probably December, will be interesting how much they produce, only time will tell. This must be best option for future price increases.
Not long to wait, look forward to hearing what it produces 👍
Super honest review
A really informative video. I’m trying to think of a way to encourage my landlord to fit solar to our house. I think being able to show him how quickly he would break even on his outlay would help. I’ve paid for a charge point to be fitted as we switched late last year. I think in the long term it’s all ab investment for him and cost saving for us. Thanks for sharing your experience 👍🏾
If you save hundreds on fuel it should make rents seem really good. Given the choice I'd always choose place with solar now
But the average landlord will not be making any savings because *the tenant* is paying the electricity bill, not the landlord. So it makes absolutely no financial sense whatsoever for a landlord to install PV - unless they also live on the property and so pay the utility bills.
@@davemould4638 except with lower running bills the rented property will be more popular and can charge a higher rent, plus it'd be a responsible thing to do
@@EVPuzzle I'm not sure that a landlord could recoup the capital outlay from the difference in rent, and I think most prospective tenants will be guided by the headline rent rather than doing the sums to see what they might save on power costs. PV panels on the roof tends to lower the value of a house in the UK - or at least that was the case 2 years ago. And of course if you sell your property before the 7 year payback period, you ensure you will never recoup the capital cost. As the cost of living increases, I'm afraid that fewer and fewer people can prioritise "being responsible" over making ends meet.
Again it's not always about recouping cost and landlords aren't living hand to mouth , they've got multiple properties
Must really be saving now that the prices have jacked up.
Yep this next year will increase savings a lot
With the ability to buy electric at 7.5p off peak and store it with batteries it changes the game and sometimes worth considering solar and batteries as 2 independent methods for energy management/consumption. If Agile export tariff becomes easier to obtain then this is here things will change big time!
That sort of margin won't be available to customers
Given the current circumstances on the energy markets any independence of the system will be the biggest blessing you could have - might I suggest buying lots of batteries and chargers, in 3 months a fully charged AAA will likely cost £100 😂😂
I've got nearly 8kW panels on 2 inverters (a 3.6kW inverter and a 2.3kW solic). My original 4kW array on a SW facing roof is now about 7 years old. With a original 13p FIT tariff and having a SOLIC 200 it probably paid for itself in 5 years. I've since added the Alpha ESS home battery system (3kW inverter and now 11.6kWh storage). I now reckon I'm about 70% off-grid and about 95%+ of my electricity is bought off-peak. That's with a family of 4 and a EV doing about 5000 miles/ year!
You inspired me to get the 2nd array and inverter as sadly, like you I couldn't touch my original FIT array.
I had sales reps come to
My previous house years ago quoting £8-10k installation charges on a modest 3 bed semi, with just my wife and I as main occupants. Payback seemed ridiculous as feedback tariff starting to decline and they were limited in the %savings they were allowed to quote
I have wondered about the reliability and efficiency of PV systems with companies offering 10-20 yr guarantees on products they have only made for a Couple of years.
I moved 4 years ago have a very efficient new build house re insulation some houses with different builder had solar offered as part of the build, surely that is what should be happening for all homes as we do not have the capacity within UK now for our electricity, importing via France nuclear power generation and with the push to have us all In EV surely the imbalance is just going to increase.
I use 3300 kWh annually in my house, this will rise as there is now 4 of us living in the house, electricity has always been the higher of my two energy bills and potentially I will be in a hybrid or an EV within a few years.
If no feed in tariffs now would a system make sense ? How big should I install 4-5000 Kw? I have never seen any PV fitting quote as low as £5K
I'd never buy from door to door.. Too desperate, there's better ways to sell.. Door to door should be illegal.
Decent brands will last 20 years +, don't go for the bottom draw cheapest products I do hear more problems from those installing the cheap and cheerful but equally you don't have to shell out twice as much for a reliable system
Solar isn't that expensive but as there's more people wanting it than parts available it sound like some are trying to up the prices to take advantage. Prices are going up though. Last year 4-5kw would be £4-5k with a simple install. No Vat now but prices are up. More in affluent areas I'd bet.
Everyone in northern Australia had these, paid off in 4 years, sun was out 340 days a year
Thank you for the clear perspective.
Looks like you've got a near perfect setup. When everyone else is wailing as their leccy and gas bills have tripled - you'll be sitting there cool as a cucumber. Only real improvement you could make I think is to move to wall mount Air conditioning units (or Air source heat pumps as is their modern fashion name) as they're SOOOO efficient in Watts used compared to any other electric heater. I recommend and have been using Mitsubishi Heavy Industries for many years.
On my list to do
But heating is the huge unresolved problem in the Solar market. In my house heating makes almost 2/3 of the energy cost. What people do? Change radiators into eletric radiators? Heat pump? What about shower and hot water in taps? I don't velieve the market is addressing these issues?
Hot water via the myenergi Eddi works a treat
Thank you Nigel
Welcome 👍
Here in Holland, you pay 1 euro each kw, my 3000wp kost installed 4200 euro, I have my investment in 18 months back, in Holland 4,5 euro m3 gas, and 1 euro KWH it's crazy.
Your figures are pretty good for the UK I'd suggest. In one of the sunniest spots in the world (Perth Western Australia) my total generation figures were 2020 7.81 Mwh and 2021 7.76 Mwh, that's for a 5kw limited array, but with some tree masking. If I was happy to lose two big trees I might expect 25% or even more on those figures.
It takes a bigger investment in the uk, you're very lucky with the amount of sun you get down there
@@EVPuzzle Another one in Perth WA here. We're also very lucky here there are big government rebates on solar. You can get a good system for under $5000. Less than £3000. They pay for themselves really quickly here.
Great video and great update thanks
Former electricL engineer for DOE here. I worked very hard for two decades to make sure PV is safe when interconnected to the grid, but the economics picture is mostly bleak. You will likely offset some utility energy costs (not power), but without government credits, you won’t beat the utility.
Depends in the country I guess. Definitely works here in the UK
Absolute tosh on all fronts . Why on earth are you watching these videos for if you think like that . All I can add is Mr. Magoo, if you're old enough to remember him
Tosh is my opinion , it's not debate you offered . Sounds like you're applying a different countries energy and tax system to my findings in the UK
Dodged? Fuel duty? Subsidy?
I guess that's what it's like on the outside looking in. You pay more tax because you haven't been smart like others
Sorry too busy counting my tax savings and yes I'm a Tory MP, Brexit loving, Labour hating, NHS hater, tax dodger. Have you subscribed yet, it's the way to go 🤣
Btw Thank you for buying petrol so you can help the govenerment pay for my solar panels. Great plan 👍🤣
I have just skipped through this video and so far you sound switched on and interesting enough on the topic. Could you add some very loud thrash metal background sound to future videos though - that would be great, thanks. Subscribed.
Certainly, like to mix it up.. Welcome to the channel
Thanks for the videos; really instructive. My only caveat would have been your mention of seeing a financial adviser. Having worked in investment as an analyst for 90% of my career I would take that with a pinch of salt. I'm sure there are some good ones out there but being decent earners we were always getting calls from them and I can honestly say I never met one that knew much. Their exams only came a few years ago and they are nowhere near as searching as accountancy, actuarial, banking, CFA etc.
As a keen DIYer, repairer etc I have been considering installing an array and building battery storage but in the UK there is little UA-cam content on this and sourcing components is harder than in the US or Canada which seems a shame. Obviously a DIY route means no grid export but without the FIT and possibly halving the cost of an installation I wonder if thast matters?
I've come to the same conclusion. I'm buying and installing myself, saving the install costs which will outweigh any SEG payments missed by not having an MCS approved installation.
The financial advisor bit was more a gesture towards the numpties that argue about payback calculations and argue its not a good Investment. I'm from 30 yrs in the finance industry and have seen good and bad advisors/companies.
Id love to say solar should be in everyone's investment portfolio, it really does make a lot of sense
Your statement at the start is 100%
Seeing £0.28 k/Wh bills, solars looking more sensible every day!
Seeing near zero usage is pretty special. We had a 0.016kwh day this week.
Good video with sensible caveats. Surprising to me how poor relative economics still are though - an 8 year payback including subsidies that aren’t available anymore and excluding opportunity costs of alternative investments, the no doubt inflated cost of installing panels these days and nothing being set aside for depreciation to replace the panels when they wear out. I’m sure the direction of travel will continue but not for me yet.
Valid points but I think most panels will go beyond the point where you want to change them as the economics enable even better panels to be installed.
Then there's the doing is because it's right not just about the payback
FIT isn't available anymore, but they have been replaced by SEG payments where you sell your excess directly to electricity providers like E.On or SSE. It's about 5p/kWh at the moment.
Excellent presentation, however your figures are now out of date with the recent increases, and the projected increase in 2023. Do you have plans for another update in these fast moving times.
FIT unfortunately gone now (30% of your payback?) and its replacement a nominal amount, which makes the case for batteries stronger, since its better to store your own generated electric and then use it later in place of say 40p peak rate, vs get 5p for it. PLus/and store off peak. I got quotes a couple months ago for battery and solar (separately and together) , my payback period for solar and batteries was around 7 to 8 years and batteries only were 5-6 years based on storing cheap rate electric.
But in the end I've gone for Octopus Go Faster which means i can move much of my high usage electricity (washing machine, dishwasher, tumble dryer) to after 930pm and so about half my domestic electricity is now at 1/4 peak rate (its 7.5p vs 31p). I'm ignoring my car usage here which is all off peak at 7.5p and also means that solar generation to charge it was competing against 7.5p electricity rather than 30-40p or more peak rate.
Hi Nigel, thanks for the update, very well explained as always. I purchased an electric car a little over a year ago and now considering installing solar panes; your channel is proving very helpful in assessing this idea. My main concern is that while I have a home office here in Suffolk I also have an office in Framlingham and the car is not always at home during the day. Without purchasing a battery system I cannot see how PV cells can help me to use the electricity generated during the day. Our main roof is also facing east-west although I have second roof on a barn but also facing the same direction. I would be interested to know how effective your gable panels are as I am considering using the south face gables of the barn and house.
My east gable is a out 40-50% of prime South facing.
Using the energy you generate is key so a small battery and water heater all help to consume the energy. Heaters to heat the house before you arrive back.. Just need to add up all the energy tasks you can perform whilst out. Washing, drying, heating, charging etc
In Australia we have the most efficient low cost Home Solar industry in the Western world. I am shocked by what people are paying in the UK and US for standard run of the mill rooftop solar. In Australia I would expect to pay $ 12k for a 10kw roof system with installation. We have a subsidy so the cost to me would be $ 8k. Convert that $ 12k to pounds and just over 6K and in USD $ 8k yet I see figures 2 x this amount for the same system.
Yep, our install costs are quite high, inverters and panels maybe less so.
UK isnt a cheap place to live tbh
10 year operation on 4kW installation hampshire uk no shading south facing 41400 kWh
Looking for battery installation and EV charging systems now
The math works when you factor in fuel cost avoided with the electric car. My payback went from 7 years to about 4.5 with the EV
I couldnt peak up overnight what i would use in a day. 60A feed, means make sure Hob 32A or shower 45A not on, infrastructures years away.
EV only beneficial for those that dont do many miles.
Far cry from max FIT in 2008 still would have taken 19 years to break even then.
Mine was a financial investment. Took 5 years to pay off the original investment. Now make just under £2k tax free for 14 years. Best investment I’ve ever made
Installed 5 years ago? Good decision
if you can get to the point to disconnect from the grid then you can remove the daily standing charge.
the fit and a small amount of solar for me means i use 1 unit of electricity from the grid a day in summer 3 to 5 in winter.
but the money got from the panels is more than enough to cover the bills for the electricity i need to use.
Panels are an investment when you sell you house you can charge more for having them. the panels earn you money as well as save you money.
with new tariffs at 26p a unit then each unit of electricity has and will always go higher in the future.
spending money on solar will save more than they cost and will last well over 20 years of benefits.
But you have to make sure that what to use is good at energy use. led lights. A rated items.
A home EV charger also increases your home's value now, according to many estate agents. Typically adding £1 to £1.5k
And if you went out an duplicated it now it would be less than 7 years to pay it off. Prices only come down as industry scales.
if a person takes out a bank loan for solar/wind and pays monthly what the array will save them monthly, you can get into solar for zero upfront cost and zero ongoing cost. Once the array is paid for you've got significant savings. If you want to look at it as an investment, you just have to fiddle with the numbers until you work out what works for you and your situation the best, but it can actually be an investment opportunity if you're just careful with the numbers.
It bests most other low risk investment opportunities, and kicks a savings account in the guts.
Market Risk or lack thereof is a key benefit
@@EVPuzzle Quite so, especially in these times of extreme economic uncertainty - a year from now 1Kwh of electricity might cost 10p, it might cost 50p. Energy independence is probably worth investment, and if I didn't live in a flat with no roof access, I'd be doing what you've done.
In the winter it doesn’t make enough unless you have air conditioning in the summer it goes to waste.If you want to save money instead of using a taxi run behind it, figures can be manipulated.Heat Geek
Very true figures can be twisted to make your case but I'm. Proud to say I'm critical of myself and always present the most accurate or less optimistic version. I'm now down to 2 months of the year where we don't have enough to cover most things but there's still a good reduction
@@EVPuzzle It's just a moan it's very good of you to put up your honest findings my house should never have been in the picture for one cheers
Currently in Scotland a 12 panel 4 kWh install with a 9.5kwh battery is costing £13.4K the government has taken vat off completely but companies have been bumping the price up so you don’t see any reduction in price ….is this really the going price in U.K. October 2022
I've had a few prices ranging from 13.5k to 15k for 16 panels of varying output and 10kWh ish worth of batteries. South Wales in September 2022
Interesting. Had our PVs now over 11years (Feb 2011 install) so on the uppermost FITs tarrif. Generated so far 37.3 MW. Have a new PHEV which has a large 24kw battery. So I'm now keeping track of my energy and its thrown up some nice data. The car is sort of a battery storage option and charges at 16amp so linked nicely with the 4kw pv array. Revisited the battery options a few times but cant seem to make that stack up.
Given the comments of some doubters not believing PV will last more than 7 years it's always nice to see an early Installer like yourself still smiling with a system 11 years later. I trust you've not had inverter failures or needed costly maintenance?
Going ull BEV will add even more battery storage too so you have options for the future.
@@EVPuzzle The Sunnyboy is still going strong but I understand on borrowed time (hence recent battery considerations). No maintenance and no noticeable degrade. It still hits 24kwh on a good day (currently at 16.8kwh today). Specific annual yeild is consistant within a few percent either way. Only issue was a pidgeon a few years back. Perimeter now meshed off
What a brilliant story for the doubters to hear....
@@paulmorris4784 Like you I have PVs installed in 2011 with a Sunnyboy single inverter and again still going strong and generated 41.5 MW. As yet I have not gone BEV or hybrid and its hurting @ £105 for 3/4 of a tank diesel. Considering getting battery storage for the house/vehicle at the next vehicle change.
@@stephenhepworth3393 Great efficiency there Stephen. My PVs had to be split on two roof slopes so I have tail off morning and evening. I can still not get the battery storage to work on ROI and my friendly Solar subcontractor suggested an additional array at the rear of the house separate from the FITs one. Fuel prices are painful so happy with the PHEV.
Hi, I don't quite understand this, it looks like your setup makes more that I'm using in a year, that is 3578kwh for 2021. So with good storage battery, if excess goes to hot water tank, and car is charging I'll still be sending power away. I'm thinking about electric car and solar panels, so if you can charge car pretty much for free, in my case I'll be saving another £100 pm on fuel, £1200 a year (7500miles /year, that is not enough for diesel anyway). But even if I'll be charging on normal tariff, it's still better than half price in comparison to diesel. Then by having electric car you saving money on services. It all looks expensive to start with, but spending money on right setup could be not far away from being self sufficient when it comes to electricity and hot water (at least for the summer) am I right? But looks like battery will have to be massive to store all that power. My average usage is about 10kwh/day, the problem is, electricity generated during the winter would probably be enough to keep you going during the summer, and everything generated in the summer will be enough for the winter.
Sounds like you understand your numbers. I had very similar beginnings. Once you move forwards you use more electric so you generate more. Self sufficiency is very possible with solar... Except in winter of course
Peter Gore Seer,
So What Is Your Standing Charge, Mine Is Just Over 50 Pence Per Day, 37 Pence Per Kil, Each Energy Company Use Post Code Pricing, I Use £370 Per Year, Be Warn. A little Over £180 Standing Charge Tax, Then There Is The Credit Steel, Over Charge Which Can Run Into Hundreds Of £ Not A Bad Sting. I Have Herd That People Had To Put A Air Cool Fan On Batteris As Thay Can Over Heat, But Thats Up To Home Owners.
Mines 48p...I think ,Norfolk tends to be lower than most
Hi, Over the 3 years,
1. How much did you draw from the grid.
2. How much did you export to the grid.
3. What was the total cost if any for the grid usage.
3yrs April 2019 to April 2022
1. 3,900 kwh import (mostly cheap heating)
2. 5,400 kwh export
3. £431 billed (9 referrals £450 = zero cost)
@@EVPuzzle Brilliant, Thanks for the quick reply.
No worries, I was curious. 5.4Mw to the grid in 3 years 😱 thankfully I see that as ready for our 2nd EV.
Capital K for KW please, and capital M for MW too :) Big difference between megawatts and milliwatts!
True but you know what I mean as do I, they're typing errors so no need to educate
Thanks Nigel, I was pleasantly surprised how much your generation has exceeded the prediction.
I need to replace my 22 year old gas boiler so I am reviewing my energy options. I already have a Zappi for my EV.
I have been quoted £6006 for 9x 390W JA Solar panels (total 3510W) and a Solis inverter with the option of adding Pylontech US3000C batteries e.g/ 9.9kWh for £5673. This deal is through the Mayor of London's 'Solar Together' scheme.
Octopus Energy have surveyed my house for a heat pump and I am waiting for the report.
Financially it seems impossible to calculate costs (and possibly savings) because future energy prices are so unpredictable.
What I don't understand is the best way (using devices/apps) to control all this. If you would do a video on controls I would really appreciate it.
£6k just for 3.9kw solar sounds a lot, must be a complex install
@@EVPuzzle No simple install. It is supposed to be 15% off normal prices because of the huge group buying deal. Reasons I can think of: London prices generally, inflation, popularity because of high electricity tariffs, supply problems. I have heard that Pylontech batteries are in short supply also.
It does sound inflated but yes, London prices maybe
@@EVPuzzle little bit small but seems rather experience
I just replaced an Aurora for a friend with a Solis which he said was about £500 for a 4kw so i would ask for a breakdown of costs. (Solis came with a pair ofMC4 plugs too)
Thank you for your channel, I really enjoy your approach, please keep it up. I too agree with you justification for installing pv, even if my better half is yet to be convinced!
I had pv installed late January this year, 24x385w = 9.24kw JP panels, SolarEdge optimisers plus 8kw inverter, Tesla powerwall2 and gateway. West facing roof plus late afternoon tree shading, so not ideal.
My approach to cost saving is somewhat different. I take the actual tariff I would have been paying before installing pv minus what I actually pay on the Octopus Tesla tariff.
Am I wrong?
Depends what you consider your option wss. We're comparing the cost of A vs B but everyone is different we might have option C or D. I'd still have octopus Go without solar but in reality I'd probably be on EON if I hadn't started this journey and I wouldn't have known about Octopus. Its hard to know what to compare to be honest.
The facts are my energy bills are tiny and have been shrinking year on year for the 4 years I've been doing this
How have you found the solaredge kit? which optimisers and which inverter? I am looking at solaredge kit.
I am planning on doing a Victron inverter with batteries. I already have solar panels and PV inverter installed.
Who installed the Victron and battery setup for you?
I'm finding that normal electricians are not really interested and it's not enough business for solar installers to just hook up your Victron inverter to the grid for you and do the relevant paperwork.
Feedback appreciated as the regulations and paperwork is putting me off doing it myself.
Great informative video - I’d really like to install Solar panal on our self-build but I’m very concerned about the fire risk. This is yet another side of the building industry that doesn’t yet have regulations in the UK on installation. 1 in 10,000 installs resulting in fire related incidents just doesn’t sit easy with me. Could be why nobody will commit to ‘signing-off’ installations as they could be liable if the worse happens?
If fire risk is a key issue for you, look at the huawei inverters. They have panel by panel arc detection to avoid exactly this. It's rare, very rare and involves faulty kit or dodgy installs but it does happen I agree. Individual panel monitoring should help too.
@@EVPuzzle Thanks for coming back on this. I'll investigate as you've recommended - much appreciated.
Being open though I've not heard of anyone having this issue. There's probably more chance of a fire from an iron or extension lead
@@martinturner5067 Are you worried about phone chargers staring fires ?
Super. I want to see more information.
Lots of videos with lots of extra info every month
The panels on average last last 25yrs. This would mean you eventually have to replace them. The worst degradation rate is .80% a year, but as a benchmark, you can expect an average degradation rate of .50% a year for any panel. You would need to work this into your savings analysis.