Thank you, Dr. Teubner, for showing how Dante emphasized the body as integral to the human experience of nature, sin, salvation, and grace. In our increasingly gnostic age, this is a shining reminder. Purgatorio is brilliant!
Yes, brilliant. And very helpful. Except, the date of Manfred's death is 1266 not 1366. I was really confused by her statement that Dante was too late to know him but knew the details until I looked it up and realized that simple error or 100 years!
Canto 3: In the Vestibule of Hell, Dante and Virgil had seen those who, having been indifferent in all of their actions while living, had merited neither heaven nor hell and would continue to be blown about by the winds of Hell’s Vestibule. Now in the Narthex of Purgatory, the poets encounter the contumacious, those who fundamentally made righteous decisions but who had dismissed the authority of God until the moment of their death. They were consigned to spend thirty years in this Narthex for every year of their contumacy on earth. They could then proceed up Mount Purgatory towards Paradise, led not by reason alone but by faith in the son of Mary. At the outset of their journey through the Inferno, Virgil had been confident he could serve as Dante’s expert guide, having visited Hades previously. However, pagan Virgil, having never seen Purgatory, now exhibits doubt about his ability to guide Dante upward. He has to seek advice of other pilgrims beginning their mountainous passage of purification. Fortunately, those they meet are willing to be both truthful and helpful, unlike the imps of Hell. Among these souls, they meet Manfred, a king, who had been posthumously excommunicated for political reasons. Recognizing Dante, who cast a shadow in the sunlight of Purgatory, as being a mortal, Manfred requests that his sojourn in Purgatory be reported to his living relatives who would pray for his “early release” from Purgatory, in accord with the doctrine that the Church Militant (the living) could pray for the Church Suffering (those in Purgatory) as the Church Triumphant (the blessed in Paradise) would intercede for the living.
Dear Dr. Teubner, Thank you for a very impressive and thought evoking presentation. I am reminded that salvation restores dignity to the soul and Christlike humility and makes us whole and that there is no joy like the joy of salvation. I noted that in your presentation you stated that the stay in the ante-purgatory is 34 times for each rebellion against the church. The number in the text is 30 times. I think perhaps the number 34 comes from the 34 cantos in the Inferno. Right?
Dear Bob, thank you very much for your comment. Yes, Manfred's joy in salvation is one of the elements of this canto that stands out to me most dramatically! Yes, the number in the text is 30 times -- I actually said "thirty-fold," which sounds a lot like "thirty-four." But I do seem to struggle with numbers at times: e.g., when I said Manfred died in 1366, not 1266! Thanks for listening thoughtfully.
@@ruthmariemitsch7752 Wow, how silly of me. Thank you very much for your careful attention to the dates. I just checked and discovered that I made the same mistake in the discussion of PURG 3 in my book manuscript. Now it's fixed! Thank you.
I have really enjoyed this series and praise all that have given their time and expertise, including Dr. Teubner.. However, I find this lecture to be...disappointing. Manfred was a seemingly pretty awful guy in life. (Much like young Cato is also saved yet...committed suicide.) I get Dr. Teubner's point; he is a late repentent. But describing him as "lush with salvation" etc seems over the top. Manfred may STILL be in ante-purgatory (270 years?), unless many prayed for him...Let's discuss and contrast the obvious.
As engaging as all the commentators have been, I have felt assaulted all along (and really since I began reading Dante when I was young) by a terrible contradiction. If indeed the infinite good has such great arms that it receives anyone who turns to it, what am I to make of the awful journey of the Inferno? There is something grossly wrong with the theology that is part of the "very moment" discourse--Manfred repents at the very moment of his death; this discourse leaves eternal salvation or eternal damnation in the hands of the flawed human capacity to see and to understand. Anyone who has lived a little, and witnessed the suffering people endure, might pause here. Is God's love so weak and ineffectual that it cannot but stand aside and give ground to our tragic human condition--in this case, to whether or not we are able to make the right choice at any moment in our lives? "Sorry there, my dear fellow, but you weren't able to see reality in time. Yes, I understand you really were all screwed up--what an understatement! Oh, well, nothing to be done about it. Now you'll just have to spend seven times seventy eons in the most appalling circumstances." If it is true that there is no one who so loses the eternal love that it cannot be regained, how can eternal love be the architect of all the most gruesome tortures we read about in the thirty-four cantos of the Inferno?
It helps me not to throw the book across the room to also listen to Canto per Canto talks and Mark Vernon's exegesis of each canto, but I am a secular reader reading because the great Harold Bloom said Dante is the very center of Western literature, and because Primo Levi relied upon the Comedia in Auschwitz, and the Russian poet Osip Mandelstam carried a copy with him everywhere, presumably even into exile in Siberia. There is something profound and magisterial here, I think, even if I'm having trouble, like you, thinking it is anything other than just a blueprint for the Inquisition!
@@cynthiaford6976 Thank you, Cynthia. I appreciate your thoughtfulness--and the connection to Mandelshtam and Levi is an important one for me. I have been able to read Mandelshtam in translation only, but his poems nevertheless have been touchstones for me for a long time. Thank you again for your perspective.
I think it’s important to remember that none of the souls in the inferno have sought true forgiveness for their sins. They are justifying the sin, saying that they were a victim of circumstances or bad luck etc, some souls are still angry at g-d. they are not saved because they never got it. That sin is inevitable but that forgiveness is forever possible.
"God's mercy makes it possible for humans to reach out to each other in love even beyond the severances of death."
Thank you.
Glad to see Dr. Teubner again. Her analysis is enlightening.
Thank you, Dr. Teubner, for showing how Dante emphasized the body as integral to the human experience of nature, sin, salvation, and grace. In our increasingly gnostic age, this is a shining reminder.
Purgatorio is brilliant!
Yes, brilliant. And very helpful. Except, the date of Manfred's death is 1266 not 1366. I was really confused by her statement that Dante was too late to know him but knew the details until I looked it up and realized that simple error or 100 years!
@@berylbyles5120 Yes, that was very apparent. Twas a simple error of speech. I am unsure why that needed to be said on my comment.
Exquisite, a beautiful lecture, I am growing in insight thanks to this program.
Excellent presentation. Very thoughtful and full of insights, to be reviewed again after I read the Canto.
Superb presentation. Thank you, Dr. Teubner.
Beautiful, inspiring reflection
Fantastic presentation! Thank you Dr. Teubner for illuminating the Canto thusly for us.
A beautifully profound and inspiring presentation. Thank you Rachel
Beautiful, thank you
Draws such richness from the canto. Thanks so much for your insights!
Excellent. Thank you.
Incisive and entertaining, Rachel. Great stuff.
Beautiful.
Marvelous example of what is good and beautiful.
Thank you. Interesting parallels.
Canto 3: In the Vestibule of Hell, Dante and Virgil had seen those who, having been indifferent in all of their actions while living, had merited neither heaven nor hell and would continue to be blown about by the winds of Hell’s Vestibule. Now in the Narthex of Purgatory, the poets encounter the contumacious, those who fundamentally made righteous decisions but who had dismissed the authority of God until the moment of their death. They were consigned to spend thirty years in this Narthex for every year of their contumacy on earth. They could then proceed up Mount Purgatory towards Paradise, led not by reason alone but by faith in the son of Mary. At the outset of their journey through the Inferno, Virgil had been confident he could serve as Dante’s expert guide, having visited Hades previously. However, pagan Virgil, having never seen Purgatory, now exhibits doubt about his ability to guide Dante upward. He has to seek advice of other pilgrims beginning their mountainous passage of purification. Fortunately, those they meet are willing to be both truthful and helpful, unlike the imps of Hell. Among these souls, they meet Manfred, a king, who had been posthumously excommunicated for political reasons. Recognizing Dante, who cast a shadow in the sunlight of Purgatory, as being a mortal, Manfred requests that his sojourn in Purgatory be reported to his living relatives who would pray for his “early release” from Purgatory, in accord with the doctrine that the Church Militant (the living) could pray for the Church Suffering (those in Purgatory) as the Church Triumphant (the blessed in Paradise) would intercede for the living.
I wonder was Pope Saint John Paul II's Theology of the Body influenced by this Canto 3 of Purgatorio?
Dear Dr. Teubner,
Thank you for a very impressive and thought evoking presentation. I am reminded that salvation restores dignity to the soul and Christlike humility and makes us whole and that there is no joy like the joy of salvation. I noted that in your presentation you stated that the stay in the ante-purgatory is 34 times for each rebellion against the church. The number in the text is 30 times. I think perhaps the number 34 comes from the 34 cantos in the Inferno. Right?
Dear Bob, thank you very much for your comment. Yes, Manfred's joy in salvation is one of the elements of this canto that stands out to me most dramatically! Yes, the number in the text is 30 times -- I actually said "thirty-fold," which sounds a lot like "thirty-four." But I do seem to struggle with numbers at times: e.g., when I said Manfred died in 1366, not 1266! Thanks for listening thoughtfully.
Manfred killed in 1266, not 1366
That puzzled me too.
@@mariebelcredi2206 I make mistakes too. ;) But the presentation itself was filled with beautiful thoughts and explanations.
@@ruthmariemitsch7752 Wow, how silly of me. Thank you very much for your careful attention to the dates. I just checked and discovered that I made the same mistake in the discussion of PURG 3 in my book manuscript. Now it's fixed! Thank you.
I have really enjoyed this series and praise all that have given their time and expertise, including Dr. Teubner.. However, I find this lecture to be...disappointing. Manfred was a seemingly pretty awful guy in life. (Much like young Cato is also saved yet...committed suicide.) I get Dr. Teubner's point; he is a late repentent. But describing him as "lush with salvation" etc seems over the top. Manfred may STILL be in ante-purgatory (270 years?), unless many prayed for him...Let's discuss and contrast the obvious.
As engaging as all the commentators have been, I have felt assaulted all along (and really since I began reading Dante when I was young) by a terrible contradiction. If indeed the infinite good has such great arms that it receives anyone who turns to it, what am I to make of the awful journey of the Inferno? There is something grossly wrong with the theology that is part of the "very moment" discourse--Manfred repents at the very moment of his death; this discourse leaves eternal salvation or eternal damnation in the hands of the flawed human capacity to see and to understand. Anyone who has lived a little, and witnessed the suffering people endure, might pause here. Is God's love so weak and ineffectual that it cannot but stand aside and give ground to our tragic human condition--in this case, to whether or not we are able to make the right choice at any moment in our lives? "Sorry there, my dear fellow, but you weren't able to see reality in time. Yes, I understand you really were all screwed up--what an understatement! Oh, well, nothing to be done about it. Now you'll just have to spend seven times seventy eons in the most appalling circumstances." If it is true that there is no one who so loses the eternal love that it cannot be regained, how can eternal love be the architect of all the most gruesome tortures we read about in the thirty-four cantos of the Inferno?
It helps me not to throw the book across the room to also listen to Canto per Canto talks and Mark Vernon's exegesis of each canto, but I am a secular reader reading because the great Harold Bloom said Dante is the very center of Western literature, and because Primo Levi relied upon the Comedia in Auschwitz, and the Russian poet Osip Mandelstam carried a copy with him everywhere, presumably even into exile in Siberia. There is something profound and magisterial here, I think, even if I'm having trouble, like you, thinking it is anything other than just a blueprint for the Inquisition!
@@cynthiaford6976 Thank you, Cynthia. I appreciate your thoughtfulness--and the connection to Mandelshtam and Levi is an important one for me. I have been able to read Mandelshtam in translation only, but his poems nevertheless have been touchstones for me for a long time. Thank you again for your perspective.
I think it’s important to remember that none of the souls in the inferno have sought true forgiveness for their sins. They are justifying the sin, saying that they were a victim of circumstances or bad luck etc, some souls are still angry at g-d. they are not saved because they never got it. That sin is inevitable but that forgiveness is forever possible.
But I am no expert on Dante or theology or anything else, just trying to read all the classics before I die