Kenneth Griffin - CEO of Citadel | Podcast | In Good Company | Norges Bank Investment Management

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  • Опубліковано 23 чер 2024
  • Citadel Founder and CEO: Investing, Innovation, Culture, and Politics
    Since founding Citadel in 1990, Ken Griffin has become one of the most successful investors of all time. In this episode, Ken shares his journey from starting Citadel after university, to leading the world's most successful hedge fund. He also shares valuable advice on politics and maintaining resilience in a volatile economic landscape.
    The podcast In Good Company is part of Norges Bank Investment Management , a podcast about our investments. We are transparent about how the fund is invested. In this podcast, you to get a deeper insight into the companies the fund is invested in.
    Our CEO, Nicolai Tangen, has in-depth interviews with the leaders of some of the largest companies in the world. You will get insight into their leadership principles, the company’s strategy and how they are dealing with a large investor like us. You will also learn more about our role as an owner of the companies.
    You can read more about the podcast on www.nbim.no/en/publications/p...
    #citadel #ingoodcompany #oljefondet

КОМЕНТАРІ • 185

  • @ScottLarrry
    @ScottLarrry Місяць тому +135

    The distress for banks was a farce; what we have experienced in the past 2 years is a result of a system that has worked incredibly well. The Fed just had to tighten credit to cool the economy.

    • @JessicaKeith-uj1jq
      @JessicaKeith-uj1jq Місяць тому +4

      What about the Fed lending program for banks that was said to ease financial tensions after the domino effect from Signature and Silicon Valley bank?

    • @ScottLarrry
      @ScottLarrry Місяць тому +3

      Yeah, that sufficed, but what really helped the economy was rising immigration that helped even out the mismatch between open jobs and people looking for work.

    • @HRMColoniallifeinsurance
      @HRMColoniallifeinsurance Місяць тому +5

      I agree. Rising productivity is manna for central banks, allowing faster growth without inflation because each hour of work yields more goods and services at the same cost.

    • @LeahLewis-ny9iu
      @LeahLewis-ny9iu Місяць тому +3

      I’m indifferent. All I really do care about is what assets and securities will drive the Santa Rally? It is upon us, folks. I have a $100k portfolio, and I have a friend who has grown theirs to over 30% with the recent rallies. He is up 4% this month alone!

    • @ScottLarrry
      @ScottLarrry Місяць тому +3

      I might sell to the tune, but not without the approval of my broker as usual since 2022. With eyes and ears on Wall Street, I have raked in 140% on a managed portfolio currently worth $315k run under a hedge fund by Desiree Ruth Hoffman.

  • @SirCrest
    @SirCrest Місяць тому +26

    Nice, very real comments from humans on this video.

  • @gawkingoblin
    @gawkingoblin Місяць тому +48

    The mayo man himself, Ken “Bedpost Beatdown” Griffin

    • @harveymoment
      @harveymoment Місяць тому

      He has no idea how fucked he is

  • @morningandafternoonsun
    @morningandafternoonsun Місяць тому +8

    This isn’t a real interview questions weren’t sent to his team before and he answered them based on how they were distributed.

  • @morningandafternoonsun
    @morningandafternoonsun Місяць тому +13

    Ken so socially awkward lmao

  • @TheBigXav
    @TheBigXav Місяць тому +25

    Why does it feel like he is reading from a prompter?

    • @danteramirez1223
      @danteramirez1223 29 днів тому +4

      Because he is reading from a prompter

    • @MarkyFX
      @MarkyFX 19 днів тому +2

      He probably only accepted the interview after he was sent the question he was comfortable with answering and wanted to come prepared 💁‍♀️

    • @MarkyFX
      @MarkyFX 19 днів тому +1

      Imagine being a billionaire and not being prepared for a interview lol

    • @TheBigXav
      @TheBigXav 19 днів тому +1

      @@MarkyFX Jamie diamond seems to be able to speak from top of mind because he believes in what he is saying instead of a crafted press release.
      Warren Buffett is able to take open questions from the audience ever year at the Berkshire annual meeting.
      Ken comes off as scociopathic, that he cannot just conduct an informal interview like this without reading prepared statements.

    • @MarkyFX
      @MarkyFX 19 днів тому

      @@TheBigXav damn bro you know so much about these men maybe you should make a hedge fund

  • @danteramirez1223
    @danteramirez1223 29 днів тому +5

    Why does Citadel get Robinhood order flow?

    • @RR-et6zp
      @RR-et6zp 15 днів тому

      its because their market maker division doesn't want the trade to go against them , they want to find a buyer for what they are about to buy from robinhood. Each division is investigated individually. The same with dark pools

  • @ibrahimyusuf677
    @ibrahimyusuf677 Місяць тому +66

    I'm favoured, $27K every week! I can now give back to the locals in my community and also support God works and the church. God bless American.

    • @PhilipJackson-zd9bi
      @PhilipJackson-zd9bi Місяць тому

      I know this lady you just mentioned. She's really good with and on her job. She's helped a couple of families and individuals' finances

    • @Subwaysub-ov8vg
      @Subwaysub-ov8vg Місяць тому

      YES!!! That's exactly her name (Mrs Anna davis ) so many people have
      recommended highly about her and am
      just starting with her 😊 from United States

    • @JohnJackson-st1ji
      @JohnJackson-st1ji Місяць тому

      she's mostly on Telegrams, using the user name👎🇺🇸

    • @JohnJackson-st1ji
      @JohnJackson-st1ji Місяць тому

      Anna_Dees02 💯 that's it

    • @JohnJackson-st1ji
      @JohnJackson-st1ji Місяць тому

      She'll guide you definitely 💯 ☝️

  • @shaylabaldwin
    @shaylabaldwin Місяць тому +6

    Leadership is everything, constantly auditing and making better decisions.

  • @Nerozh
    @Nerozh 20 днів тому +2

    Drinking game: One shot everytime KG blinks.

  • @JHartless1488
    @JHartless1488 25 днів тому +9

    Ken is most def on a new learning curve for an idiosyncratic risk.
    He fucked around, and he's about to find out

  • @user-wu7bp7tz6v
    @user-wu7bp7tz6v Місяць тому +19

    Ken Griffin, Is that the guy who threw a bedpost at his spouse....

    • @bhe8336
      @bhe8336 21 день тому

      Like a fucking parrot you people have zero arguments.

    • @ingvildrosa4892
      @ingvildrosa4892 4 дні тому

      Three days before the wedding!

  • @navycruise
    @navycruise Місяць тому +8

    Thank you providing viewers with such an illuminating interview. Your incisive questions provoked more opportunity for candor than Ken generally offers online.

  • @TheBigXav
    @TheBigXav Місяць тому

    What an interview, wish you would have asked him about pitching to Thorpe. Next time.

  • @danteramirez1223
    @danteramirez1223 29 днів тому +2

    For Citadel, they believe they set the price of securities and not supply/demand 🤔

  • @Greenmanjim
    @Greenmanjim Місяць тому +4

    Serious ? is ken a p co path

  • @shaylabaldwin
    @shaylabaldwin Місяць тому

    Agile problem solving is everything.

  • @shaylabaldwin
    @shaylabaldwin Місяць тому

    Great data points

  • @johnutexas
    @johnutexas 28 днів тому +3

    This clowns best asset is his pay for order flow. He doesn’t have research, he has algos that front run all trades between the spreads

    • @bhe8336
      @bhe8336 20 днів тому

      Pretty smart with brokerage tech being behind. Buying at the market is literally false depending on who you trade with

  • @VasVordokas
    @VasVordokas Місяць тому

    Interesting view and very much in contrast to that of Nassim Taleb who would argue there are more lessons to be learned from analyzing losing bets vs winning ones as luck tends to be big factor in the latter

  • @Francezu-ng7qn
    @Francezu-ng7qn 8 днів тому +1

    Let's talk about those OTC trades, shall we ?

  • @joethethai6317
    @joethethai6317 Місяць тому

    Converting office buildings into vertical farming?
    To Improve pruductibity, education, exposures to ideas, concepts, mentors, collaborations, and development and leadership in the U.S. and Europe, and bringing people pack to office?
    : Convert empty office buildings into vertical farming, will bring people from work from home back to work in gardening and producing local food sustainably, will create tennants/rent income, employment and sustainable food supply

  • @nolanhenderson9552
    @nolanhenderson9552 17 годин тому

    Reading from a script ol Kenny Boy! Enjoy your last bit of freedom

  • @505Barber
    @505Barber Місяць тому +11

    I can't wait to come back to this comment in 2025 when Ken is in Jail with his pal Bernie Madoff.

  • @sequence_artist
    @sequence_artist Місяць тому +3

    This was very very inspirational and informative! Thanks for bringing to us this amazing intellectual leadership. 🙏❤️ from Albania 🇦🇱

  • @mrunlimited3
    @mrunlimited3 Місяць тому +3

    By “best investors of all time” you mean he sells stuff he doesn’t own and doesn’t pay back or settle his trades,
    Then, yeah - he’s a super successful “investor” or better put…. manipulating the market, creating counterfeit shares and lying to Congress about it. Super sleazy guy.

  • @cwaddle
    @cwaddle Місяць тому +1

    I have never heard of Nicolai until now. I thought he was a radio DJ from the UK😂 its quite strange for the CEO sitting in a studio doing the interview

    • @theonlycaulfield
      @theonlycaulfield Місяць тому

      David Rubinstein regularly conducts interviews and he co-founded the Carlyle Group, one of the largest private equity firms in the world.

  • @hawkeye50
    @hawkeye50 Місяць тому +8

    Griffin is more of an inside player than a true investor. He looks for regulatory loopholes to exploit rather than making money through investing in businesses.

    • @bhe8336
      @bhe8336 21 день тому

      That is investing though.... Don't hate the player hate the game. The government makes it this way

    • @nothin9891
      @nothin9891 19 днів тому +2

      Buy gme

  • @JesusisLvfds6400
    @JesusisLvfds6400 Місяць тому +9

    He's half reptilian

  • @november2005Nov
    @november2005Nov Місяць тому

    "In the third grade I wrote a "paper" I want to learn how the stock market works?" - wrote a paper

  • @Maverick7642
    @Maverick7642 29 днів тому

    While this provide an actual strategy on investing and how to value stocks. After buying stocks for just over 3 years, i'm struggling to make gains. How do i adjust or revamp my 250k portfolio? Should i consider some defensive investments?

    • @Annie56427
      @Annie56427 29 днів тому

      In this current unstable markets, It is advisable to diversify while retaining 70-80% in secure investments. looking at the worth of your portfolio, you should consider financial advisory

    • @Alden457
      @Alden457 29 днів тому

      Agreed, my portfolio is well-matched for every market season yielding 85% from early last year to date. All thanks to my advisr. We are currently working on a 7 figure ballpark goal, tho this could take another year. IMO, financial advisors are the most sought-after professionals after doctors.

    • @Christian67337
      @Christian67337 29 днів тому

      Please can you leave the info of your lnvestment advsor here? I’m in dire need for one

    • @Alden457
      @Alden457 29 днів тому

      She goes by ‘Colleen Rose Mccaffery’ I suggest you look her up. To be honest, I almost didn't buy the idea of letting someone handle growing my finance, but so glad I did

    • @Christian67337
      @Christian67337 29 днів тому

      Thank you for this Pointer. It was easy to find your handler, She seems very proficient and flexible. I booked a call session with her.

  • @yaboi_69
    @yaboi_69 29 днів тому +11

    Next Maddof right here

  • @eb9520
    @eb9520 Місяць тому +1

    Griffin should walk the floors with low level workers like me and see that coming back to the office stinks. These jobs don't allow for collaboration. You sit staring at a screen all day long in an ugly office environment, most likely with no natural light. In addition, when the pay is structured for subsistent living, the commute is another dreary part of the day. I am an executive assistant so I see clearly the difference (in lifestyle and attitudes) between high earners and the rest of us.

  • @MiaK06
    @MiaK06 Місяць тому +1

    Thoroughly enjoyed this podcast. V focused and targeted questions.

  • @bfossberg
    @bfossberg 19 днів тому +1

    Multi economical criminell actors on both sides of this intervju 😄

  • @wildernessuk
    @wildernessuk Місяць тому

    Why do you sack me? Lol.. would love to be in that meeting

  • @spacecadet9680
    @spacecadet9680 23 дні тому

    I do best with trusting the board, and needing no forward guidance past that… ggs

  • @HIMSKIFso
    @HIMSKIFso Місяць тому

    Nice

  • @SSYlist
    @SSYlist Місяць тому +4

    Bloody hell this guy gives perfect interview ... Good job as usual on the questions ❤

  • @shaylabaldwin
    @shaylabaldwin Місяць тому

    Marathon !

  • @BinanceUSD
    @BinanceUSD Місяць тому +4

    A inspiring interview. Insightful and a great reminder of first principles.

  • @jentorninos.ballen9269
    @jentorninos.ballen9269 Місяць тому

    sino po ba nakakahiya tao ung walang pinag aralan tao o may pinag aralan tao

  • @nicholasr.6568
    @nicholasr.6568 6 днів тому

    Nicolai seem jealous, and it seeps through into his questions. Ken wants a big check from Norges, so he agreed to the interview.

  • @RedGoobler
    @RedGoobler Місяць тому +10

    He sounds like he's just reading off a script

    • @lukey1210
      @lukey1210 Місяць тому +4

      Looks it as well

    • @theonlycaulfield
      @theonlycaulfield Місяць тому

      He just sounds a little robotic like he usually does due to his autism.

  • @zhap053
    @zhap053 Місяць тому

    Thank you for arranging these interviews! I'm thoroughly enjoying them during my physics studies. A little request if possible, It would be fantastic to see an interview with someone from the new TKO group. The list of interesting members in that business is endless (Dana White, The Rock, Triple H, Stephanie McMahon, Ariel Emanuel, Nick Khan). I believe it's an incredible merger of two amazing businesses, and there may be insights from an interview that reveal strengths capable of improving both companies.

  • @michaelmacfarlane8479
    @michaelmacfarlane8479 Місяць тому +3

    I´ve never been a huge fan of Kenneth, but this interview definitely opened my perspective. I really enjoyed this. Found myself agreeing with him on multiple views. Really great job Nicolai!
    One question that has me rather curious though. Earlier in the interview Kenneth states how in his younger days he realised the "market maker" made risk-free profit. Later, he continues to explain what a market maker is and how as a market maker they would "hope to then eventually sell these assets" that they aquire. Can you explain how this would be "risk-free" in the event of the inevitable crash? Surely a day full of liquidations would make it highly unlikely for them to offload all of the assets they aquired as a "market maker".

    • @DesmondMiles333
      @DesmondMiles333 Місяць тому

      So what he was saying was he got lucky he had contract expiration after the crash happened and MM still made profit. So in modern market thats exactly what happens. Just look at 2020 for example. We all knew the severity of "It" and the stock market would crash by January but the crash took 2 additional months to unravel itself. Those extra 2 months MM's made enormous profits coz people kept buying puts and lost money.

  • @tomas_marques
    @tomas_marques Місяць тому +13

    Ken is the man. But I do wonder why he always looks like a supervillain in his interviews and photos. Thanks for the great content! Cheers

  • @Eduardo-xl8hu
    @Eduardo-xl8hu 15 днів тому +2

    It feels like he is reading a script

  • @WiCapitalco
    @WiCapitalco Місяць тому +1

    If I had one chance to speak with Ken that would be incredibly rewarding

  • @Fj8282haha
    @Fj8282haha Місяць тому +5

    Camping in Omaha now waiting to see one more round of Oracle of Omaha .,.

    • @tomas_marques
      @tomas_marques Місяць тому +2

      May the oracle deliver unto us returns for many more annual meetings to come

  • @noahmiranda6604
    @noahmiranda6604 19 днів тому +1

    Madoff 2.0

  • @wread1982
    @wread1982 Місяць тому +6

    Shorting a good cancer stock, the man is evil 😢

  • @Michael_NV
    @Michael_NV Місяць тому

    Never heard of him. Doesn't sound so, but if you says so...

  • @shaylabaldwin
    @shaylabaldwin Місяць тому +1

    Yes !!!!!! This is a phenomenal interview.

  • @shaylabaldwin
    @shaylabaldwin Місяць тому +3

    Phenomenal interview

  • @nesnaj1730
    @nesnaj1730 Місяць тому +6

    Griffin obviously knows and plays the market well, but its dirty and these loopholes should never have existed in the first place. Good for him but no respect for him and the company he created.

  • @GregNow
    @GregNow Місяць тому +2

    Good questions, interesting answers! Great interview.

  • @chrislaw7986
    @chrislaw7986 Місяць тому +1

    Thanks for making these interviews

  • @lukey1210
    @lukey1210 Місяць тому +14

    How is naked shorting a stock, FTDing and 65 billion securities sold not delivered make you a great investor? Damn paid propaganda

    • @bhe8336
      @bhe8336 21 день тому

      He said the answer to this in the first 5 minutes. It's about making free fees off the top of client securities sales. That's a great investment 👍

    • @jfcjr4584
      @jfcjr4584 6 днів тому

      Selling something you don't own and never buy bavk isn't investing, it's stealling ​@@bhe8336

  • @firstshelbourne
    @firstshelbourne Місяць тому

    This interviewer is amazing. Asks great questions and never interrupts. Ken Griffin is great to listen to. Would love getting steaks with these guys.

    • @user-wu7bp7tz6v
      @user-wu7bp7tz6v Місяць тому +1

      might get a bed post thrown at you. Ken is not a nice guy.

  • @tyler0506
    @tyler0506 Місяць тому +3

    Ken you need to work on your PR approach

  • @PeachGardenOath
    @PeachGardenOath Місяць тому +2

    IPO citadel Ken Griffin, already accepted financing from VCs

  • @shaylabaldwin
    @shaylabaldwin Місяць тому

    Wow that’s awesome !!!!!👏

  • @scottweiss3502
    @scottweiss3502 4 дні тому +1

    So what comments I have read sounds like this guy's going to prison soon

  • @shaylabaldwin
    @shaylabaldwin Місяць тому

    Bravo 👏

  • @diskin3058
    @diskin3058 Місяць тому +2

    Great pod. It makes a whole lot of difference when the interviewer knows the game and knows exactly what to ask rather than glorifying and bootlicking...

  • @annunakian8054
    @annunakian8054 Місяць тому

    Lots of similarities between how a successful company & sports team is managed. From the use of analytics, mentorship & leadership to finding & developing talent. Ken sets the tone for his firm by being his own toughest critic & constantly seeking self-improvement. If only they ran schools that way.

    • @navycruise
      @navycruise Місяць тому +1

      ... or governments (in response to your if only comment)

  • @AlishahJamal94
    @AlishahJamal94 9 днів тому +2

    Zero life in his eyes. An evil human. Karma has his name in its crosshairs.

    • @ebnda
      @ebnda День тому

      how lol

  • @Personalfinance_10174
    @Personalfinance_10174 16 днів тому

    Where are my tax cuts...if Biden wins will I be forced to pay my fair share? 😳

  • @ShubhamSinghYoutube
    @ShubhamSinghYoutube Місяць тому

    I was rejected by both this internship season

  • @whaleblowhole
    @whaleblowhole Місяць тому +3

    AMC GME ken griffin has alot of long term debt and securities not yet bought hmmmm

  • @jerrybillionss7693
    @jerrybillionss7693 Місяць тому

    Very insightful thank you so much

  • @mtdofficial2466
    @mtdofficial2466 Місяць тому

  • @saivamsikrishnaposani7157
    @saivamsikrishnaposani7157 Місяць тому +2

    Hero

  • @adokoka
    @adokoka Місяць тому

    I have enjoyed this interview between two great minds. Ken, you are much nicer and lovely than traditional media portrayed you. I am glad I listened to you without any bias. You are a very nice, knowledgeable and intelligent person. I can help you solve the multi-period optimization problem if you could teach me some trading nuggets :)

  • @Incurabl
    @Incurabl Місяць тому

    12:50

  • @LeveragedFinance
    @LeveragedFinance Місяць тому +2

    Ken needs to hire zuckerberg pr team

  • @pldevries
    @pldevries Місяць тому +58

    Ken Griffen is greed personified. Not very bright, but very focused and ruthless. Citadel makes money by front running investors.

    • @LeveragedFinance
      @LeveragedFinance Місяць тому +14

      Ken has horrible PR

    • @MiaK06
      @MiaK06 Місяць тому +14

      He has only built one of the single most successful hedge fund and securities firm. But yes, he isn’t v bright…. 🙈. Actually, he is one of the brightest professionals in finance not to mention a phenomenal business man and entrepreneur.

    • @tedknudstrup6101
      @tedknudstrup6101 Місяць тому +5

      Where is your facts? Is that an opinion or just don’t like people who are good capitalist?

    • @chiquita683
      @chiquita683 Місяць тому

      He's Kenough BASED

    • @user-wu7bp7tz6v
      @user-wu7bp7tz6v Місяць тому +6

      @@LeveragedFinance throwing a bedpost at your wife is not a PR problem, its a "im five years old mentally" problem.

  • @jentorninos.ballen9269
    @jentorninos.ballen9269 Місяць тому

    kaya ninyo tangapin na pag sabihan kayo ng walang pinag aralang tao

  • @selish3163
    @selish3163 25 днів тому +1

    The most person hated by bulls, but in reality it seems to me that he is an intelligent person and knows what he is doing

    • @JeesusChrist
      @JeesusChrist 23 дні тому +3

      Lol yeah everyone looks like they know what they doing untill they dont, look at bernie madoff

  • @musashi7070
    @musashi7070 18 днів тому +1

    He’s reading from a script lmao, what a joke

  • @khanate2750
    @khanate2750 Місяць тому

    Great pod and I learned a lot but Kenneth seems very corporate, would love to see more of the other side to him.

    • @MiaK06
      @MiaK06 Місяць тому

      Lots of interviews w him on UA-cam / some more focused on finance and his views on the markets vs others also give an insight into other aspects of his activities and his view points. He is someone I follow and respect a lot; appreciate he is viewed by many as greed persona fide, but he is also a great philanthropist and has given and continues to give a huge amount to a lot of v important and worthwhile causes.

    • @user-wu7bp7tz6v
      @user-wu7bp7tz6v Місяць тому +2

      careful, might throw a bedpost at you. Ken might have the emotional maturity of a 5 year old.

    • @theonlycaulfield
      @theonlycaulfield Місяць тому

      He just sounds stilted because he's autistic. Talking somewhat roboticly like he does is common among those with autism.

    • @noor-rrr
      @noor-rrr Місяць тому

      True! He needs to be on a podcast like with lex or joe

  • @reaver9
    @reaver9 Місяць тому

    He has become very institutionalized, can't listen to Citadel this Citadel that fluff.. Decoupling with China and industrial nationalism is a new normal, wishing for a big happy global family would definetely benefit his company more but reality is different.

  • @shaylabaldwin
    @shaylabaldwin Місяць тому

    😍👩🏼‍🦰

  • @Fj8282haha
    @Fj8282haha Місяць тому +2

    Thx for the video, felt I went to three year reeducation on finance thr the university of UA-cam…

  • @askartop2628
    @askartop2628 Місяць тому +6

    This guy from Norway asks stupid questions 😂all the time

  • @maxp2570
    @maxp2570 4 дні тому

    Lot's of talking, yet saying very little..

  • @BulletTrucking99
    @BulletTrucking99 Місяць тому +1

    Easily the most successful businessman in the USA right here.

  • @joycegallagher9193
    @joycegallagher9193 2 дні тому

    ken is not a good guy

  • @shaylabaldwin
    @shaylabaldwin Місяць тому

    Etf is great

  • @shaylabaldwin
    @shaylabaldwin Місяць тому

    Automation!

  • @Fj8282haha
    @Fj8282haha Місяць тому +1

    Btw… wondering if I may get a job with ya folks tho? Lol… retired @ 27 a few years ago, seriously questioning the whole idea of “retirement “ now…. lol
    Super curious about investing tho….

  • @Fj8282haha
    @Fj8282haha Місяць тому +2

    Titan vs northern Titan …

  • @Fj8282haha
    @Fj8282haha Місяць тому

    lol… I got hooked on similar way but with loss. Sold put option on Russian assets before ukrine war… didn’t see Putler dat crazy coming 😂😂😂😂 leant tho

  • @donholmes4235
    @donholmes4235 Місяць тому +15

    Griffin is a very very bad human being.

    • @JesusisLvfds6400
      @JesusisLvfds6400 Місяць тому +4

      Dolphins owner Stephen Ross just turned him down on the purchase of the team. 😆

    • @paulkamara281
      @paulkamara281 Місяць тому

      Please enlighten us.........What do you know ?

    • @TheBigXav
      @TheBigXav Місяць тому +1

      People are mad how the GameStop trading freeze worked out and by how he has excessive influence over the markets above the retail investor. He is basically the poster child for the rich play by a different set of rules.

    • @DG10-youtube-channel
      @DG10-youtube-channel 28 днів тому

      Why say that?